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Struyk
12-11-2013, 02:40 AM
Hex Balance (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiVOcXjaSqdOdG5yOTQtaHdlUzY1LVJIbWpUcXF1d Wc&usp=sharing)

Feel free to comment on things that you think that are really really really wrong and give me a valid reason why and I will adjust :)

Seems like there was a misunderstanding:
This list is for people who don't know which cards to put in their deck, not for cryptozoic balance issues! Because for example: One card can be really bad in pvp, but shine in PvE because of equipments, and if they would buff that one card, it will get even stronger in PvE. And there are cards that are really bad because they are way to situational, but the would be really good in a side deck.

Gwaer
12-11-2013, 02:56 AM
Succulent roostersaur is a 1?! This list is invalid. More importantly every card should not be balanced. Some cards will be better than others. Some cards will be waaay better than others. Thems the rules.

i guess what I'm trying to say is a balance list is more or less silly with a tcg. What you really have here is a tier list. Refine it and it can be an excellent tool when you're doing draft.

The real magic of tcg's happens when those cards everyone considers underpowered come out from no where in a deck that can fully take advantage of them. Sometimes that never happens. Sometimes it happens many sets in. But cards are basically never supposed to be entirely balanced against one another.

Struyk
12-11-2013, 03:38 AM
First of all this list is my personal opinion, and will use this when drafting and other people can use it to construct decks.
Secondly, every card should be worth using, or you can just remove them from the game.
Third, I have tried every card and tried to make every card I put under 1 work before.

Got 100+ decks on hex.tcgbrowser.com and already played a bunch of

funktion
12-11-2013, 04:30 AM
The mushwocky definitely needs to be nerfed. They need to take crush away from it, and instead of it getting buffed for every shin'hare you control it should force you to sacrifice the shin'hare.

Struyk
12-11-2013, 04:46 AM
The mushwocky definitely needs to be nerfed. They need to take crush away from it, and instead of it getting buffed for every shin'hare you control it should force you to sacrifice the shin'hare.

Crush definitely has to go yes lol, you dont want to fight a 30/30 with crush :P

Storm_Fireblade
12-11-2013, 05:29 AM
If you check "The Mushwocky" ingame right now, its a 4 cost, 2 Blood Treshold Card with 1/1 that gains +3/+3 permanently for every Shin'hare you sacrifice. Thats absolutely balanced in my opinion :)

Eierdotter
12-11-2013, 05:36 AM
omg i had to always look up what left and right means
some strong cards are in the need buff part
some weak cards in the need nerf part


Emberspire Witch... needs buff
Time Bug... needs nerf

indeed this is your opinion (based on limited?)

Struyk
12-11-2013, 05:52 AM
omg i had to always look up what left and right means
some strong cards are in the need buff part
some weak cards in the need nerf part



indeed this is your opinion (based on limited?)

I said Emberspire Witch MIGHT need a buff, because its a very situational 2/2 for 2 cost
Time bug is good in ANY deck as its a 1/1 with flying ( already decent ) and then there's this extra turn when you have 2 of them. Use it combined with The Transcended ( 2 of them = infinite turns LOL ) or a blue card draw deck and it's way to strong.

Eierdotter
12-11-2013, 06:11 AM
well a 2/2 swiftstrike with a good effect for 2 cost, sounds very strong to me for the value you get.
time bug was a 1/1 last i checked, still no official change for him, and he fits only in a time bug combo deck...

but anyhow that is just my opinion!
my question was what your ranking is based off?
value/cost? constructed? limited? art?

Struyk
12-11-2013, 06:24 AM
well a 2/2 swiftstrike with a good effect for 2 cost, sounds very strong to me for the value you get.
time bug was a 1/1 last i checked, still no official change for him, and he fits only in a time bug combo deck...

but anyhow that is just my opinion!
my question was what your ranking is based off?
value/cost? constructed? limited? art?

Based off current pvp balance?

jetah
12-11-2013, 06:34 AM
search the forums for balance. there was a thread a while back where a link was provided that mentioned why cards will always seem unbalanced. The author of the story was a developer from MtG (or maybe WotC).

On their own each card is balanced. When compared to other cards, every card can seem unbalanced (not to say OP or needs a nerf).

Eierdotter
12-11-2013, 07:01 AM
was that a question regarding my explanation for the two cards or your answer to the ranking system?

new question:

Xenthot's Inquisitor - perfectly fine
Frost Wizard - needs buff
Verdant Wyldeboar - needs nerf
i clearly do not get this ranking
Xenthot's Inquisitor is one of the strongest cards currently
Frost Wizard is a sideboard card for hateplay against escalation and some other effects
Verdant Wyldeboar is a luck based redraw card playable only in W/R Aggro decks

i may be hard on you for creating this ranking, but that is because i think 90% of the cards are perfectly balanced for their respective use.
cards get balanced for playformats: constructed(all cards of your collection), limited (booster draft), PvE(equippment)
and for playertypes: Timmy (power gamer, who likes big Troops), Johnny(likes innovative combos), Spike(play-to-win gamer)

Struyk
12-11-2013, 07:41 AM
I don't mind cards not being balanced ( 2000 hours of MTGO and you don't care about balance anymore ), ofcourse a legendary should be alot better than a common that's why I looked at it per rarity. This is purely a list of cards worth using, and cards that everyone uses because they are broken for explain this Spearcliff Cloud Knight or Mastery of Time ( which should be like 8 cost, not 5 )

Xenthot's Inquisitor - perfectly fine
Only 1 hp and can be blocked, but in return he gets major socket and his ability, which seems perfectly balanced to me. Also he can only use a blood socket, because he will be really hard to play in a multi coloured deck as he has 2 blood threshold.

Frost Wizard - needs buff
Currently no valid reason to put in any deck
He partially counters escalation ( 25%, 33%, 50%, 100%)
I don't think anyone currently uses a deck that would suck vs this guy, and even if people do, he's really easy to get rid off with his 2 health. For example, you finally get to play vs someone who uses Tomb Lord and Wall of Corpses ( 2 of the few cards that would really suffer from Frost Wizard ) but he will instantly die vs Murder or Persecute and you'll have to wait untill you draw another one, in which time the effect will be almost useless compared to early game. I can see where he would come in handy ( Some PvE matches,

I wouldve swapped him for a constant like this:
3 cost Constant ( 1 diamond threshold)
If a card would enter an opposing deck or graveyard, void it instead.

Verdant Wyldeboar - needs nerf
Main problem is that he's only 1 wild threshold, which means you can combo him with any other colour. Again looking at The Transcended and blue draw decks is why this one needs a nerf.
Will pretty much always deal 4 damage ( or kill one enemy troops ) for 2 cost
And when you draw him again he becomes a 8/8 for 2 cost...
PvE he's even more broken because of the armour and weapon lol

VoidInsanity
12-11-2013, 08:04 AM
There is a reason your Dentist is not your Doctor, he is not qualified for it. Likewise you are not qualified to make a balance list.

Svenn
12-11-2013, 08:05 AM
I don't have the time to get into it all right now... but I disagree with a large portion of this list.

hex_colin
12-11-2013, 08:06 AM
Secondly, every card should be worth using, or you can just remove them from the game.

This is a fallacy. And I know for certain the folks designing the game don't share this philosophy. Part of the skill of the game is identifying those cards that are not quite as strong as their counterparts and choosing not to use them, especially in Limited play.

XagoTrunk
12-11-2013, 08:08 AM
I wouldnt mind if cosmic transmogrifier had its ability cost reduced to 2 or 1. Keep the card cost at 5 but reduce the ability cost so it's more viable to play on the same turn you put it on the field. Other than that it doesn't really need any changes.

Struyk
12-11-2013, 08:22 AM
This is a fallacy. And I know for certain the folks designing the game don't share this philosophy. Part of the skill of the game is identifying those cards that are not quite as strong as their counterparts and choosing not to use them, especially in Limited play.

Give me one reason why they made Determined Zombie or Bone Warrior ( 4 cost to get back to 1-2 after it dies ) Also, that "skill" is what I applied to make this list. I'm very clever and got thousands of hours experience with TCG's and especially the deck building part ( made more decks than I played with )


I wouldnt mind if cosmic transmogrifier had its ability cost reduced to 2 or 1. Keep the card cost at 5 but reduce the ability cost so it's more viable to play on the same turn you put it on the field. Other than that it doesn't really need any changes.

I totally agree on this one

hex_colin
12-11-2013, 08:30 AM
Give me one reason why they made Determined Zombie or Bone Warrior ( 4 cost to get back to 1-2 after it dies ) Also, that "skill" is what I applied to make this list. I'm very clever and got thousands of hours experience with TCG's and especially the deck building part ( made more decks than I played with )

I just did. Some cards are intentionally better than others so that increased skill and knowledge of the game provides opportunities for differentiation in Limited play.

Also, you can never discount the thematic value of some cards. Some just exist to fill out a "Zombie" block or a race block or whatever.

Finally, I imagine you can somewhat reduce your overall balance-related workload and complexity by having some intentionally underpowered cards. Not saying the CZE folks do that though.

Disordia
12-11-2013, 08:47 AM
Resurrection needs a buff? I fully support this list..

Eierdotter
12-11-2013, 08:53 AM
So you used a lot of time to build decks on a paper, did you play a lot?
i for sure did play a lot, not quite as much as i was expecting to play,
but enough to notice, that a lot of cards that i gave rather lower playpower
turn out to be very strong, at least from a constructed POV.

For example you rate several cards that see play in Tier1 decks as "need a buff"
or cards that i have never seen play in the "need a nerf" part.
So i assume you did not play as much HEX as you should have,
before creating such a list. i know it is a work in progress.
Some rankings look like you rate them in a vacuum and the next card is ranked as op because it combos well with 3 other cardconstellations.



Secondly, every card should be worth using, or you can just remove them from the game.

at least i fully agree on this part, and since you can come up with a lot of reasons(themedeck, constructeddeck, limiteddeck, flavorcard), it always applies :-).

hex_colin
12-11-2013, 09:05 AM
at least i fully agree on this part, and since you can come up with a lot of reasons(themedeck, constructeddeck, limiteddeck, flavorcard), it always applies :-).

I agree - in the spirit you're suggesting, i.e. that every card has it's place for some reason, but not because they should all have the same relative strength.

GhundiPI
12-11-2013, 09:24 AM
Give me one reason why they made Determined Zombie

This is actually a nice example. Determined Zombie is a 2 cost 1 attack- 3 defense common, which is there as a filler for drafting. Within a constructed format it would have no place in a competitive deck, but within a draft setting it is a very logical addition to the set and actually not that bad.



or Bone Warrior

Which is not in game yet and quite possibly will change, which has happened to most spoiled cards that are not in the alpha yet.

It has been stated a few times already by CZE that the balance of Hex is done around the draft format. As such I personally will judge only after I have extensively tested drafting on how the balance actually works out. Currently I have a few doubts, but those are only a few cards (some rares and legendaries) of which when encountered in the first round, will be too much of a deciding factor for the other two. But we will see.

Eierdotter
12-11-2013, 09:26 AM
Give me one reason why they made Determined Zombie
good example, Blood lacks in 2 drops and this guy is very annoying his 3 defense makes him a very good early blocker. there are no many aggro cards that kill him easylie and wasting a murder or 2 burn on him is a very hard decision for the opponent.


I agree - in the spirit you're suggesting, i.e. that every card has it's place for some reason, but not because they should all have the same relative strength.

strenght is so hard to give a value to
a 2 cost 1/1 speed orc looks bad compared to the 1 cost 1/1 baby yeti
combine the orc with a throat cutter or zoltog and it is a good card.

same for a wild 3/3 crush for 4 cost and a 2/2 crush for 4 in diamond
play the diamond card in a inspire deck and he is a X/X x effects for 4.

so many things to consider when comparing power levels.

even a card like 6 cost, discard your hand and sacrifice 2 troops. will be good in a strange combo deck.
every card will see play in a deck, maybe not in every Tier1 tournament deck, but someone will like it because it is fun to paly with.
Thats how cad games work.

LeMazing
12-11-2013, 09:39 AM
In addition to what the last few posters have mentioned:

By very nature of this game's scope, it's highly likely that every card will have a home. Cory mentioned yesterday that dungeon and raid encounters will push the limits of conventional deck-building. So in all likelihood, having a deck with crappy (by competitive standards) vanilla troops will prove advantageous in some fights. Or sacrificing a strong curve and synergy to have a deck focused entirely on one troop type could be viable in some other fights.

The game isn't just about typical TCG Constructed and Limited PvP. We'll be getting a lot of use out of our underrated cards when PvE finally hits. Especially when you factor in equipment.

Struyk
12-11-2013, 10:26 AM
In addition to what the last few posters have mentioned:

By very nature of this game's scope, it's highly likely that every card will have a home. Cory mentioned yesterday that dungeon and raid encounters will push the limits of conventional deck-building. So in all likelihood, having a deck with crappy (by competitive standards) vanilla troops will prove advantageous in some fights. Or sacrificing a strong curve and synergy to have a deck focused entirely on one troop type could be viable in some other fights.

The game isn't just about typical TCG Constructed and Limited PvP. We'll be getting a lot of use out of our underrated cards when PvE finally hits. Especially when you factor in equipment.

I know, but this list is for current alpha pvp. I already made a few decks for PvE but I'm expecting alot of cards/equipments to change as I made 3 that WILL need a nerf because the combo is just broken, for example having monkey of the 9 tails ( 9 card start ), 4x Enlightened Seeker, 8x Time Bug and a lot of control spells in deck. And the one I'm going for when beta launches is even more retarded but I won't tell what it is :)

And yes ofcourse, if they release some kind of a zombie lord that makes zombies come back one turn after they die then Determined Zombie will raise in power :)

And Eierdotter that's exactly how I made this list.
PS: That 1-3 Determined Zombie can just be ignored, I see it as +3 life for 2 cost vs non flyers etc

Svenn
12-11-2013, 11:25 AM
Give me one reason why they made Determined Zombie or Bone Warrior ( 4 cost to get back to 1-2 after it dies ) Also, that "skill" is what I applied to make this list. I'm very clever and got thousands of hours experience with TCG's and especially the deck building part ( made more decks than I played with )
Bone Warrior is awesome. He keeps coming back after he dies... that can lead to card advantage. Same reason Xentoth's Inquisitor is great... and his cost doesn't increase every time. I'm betting we won't get him in quite the same form we've seen though.

jtatta
12-11-2013, 11:38 AM
I don't really understand the purpose of this thread. It's cool that you have a list and all for your own perusal but why ask for opinions from other people when you've made it clear that this list is "your opinion." The list is very inaccurate and just reflects YOUR experiences. At least 5 of the cards you have as a "1" are at least a "3." Like, do you just want every single card to be a "3"?

Several of the cards on the list aren't even in game yet so not sure how you can even rank them. I count 13 cards at first glance that you ranked as 1's that I would rank at least a 3. Anyway, I apologize for the rant but others are making good points that you seem to be ignoring. This list is 110% not based off of PvP balance.

the_artic_one
12-11-2013, 12:27 PM
This list is really bad, Soul marble at 5 when droo's is at 3? I hope I get in a lot of drafts against people who use this list.

knightofeffect
12-11-2013, 01:40 PM
I think this list just goes to show that it is very important for tcg designers to present cards that have a range of balance that mean different things to different players. =)

Struyk
12-11-2013, 02:05 PM
Soul marble is one of the strongest diamond cards right now, 1 cost, 1 threshold, can pump all spare resources into it and summons this epic epic 6/6 with SPELLSHIELD. My main deck is Diamond, and EVERY single time I managed to get him out I won because of him. Dunno why you brought up Droo though, you find him to weak or to strong? I think he's pretty balanced because I used him a few times in my diamond life deck but havent seen anyone else play him yet.

Svenn problem with Bone Warrior is the 4 cost to get him back. It should be free with tap or 1 cost IMO
And jtatta I want 95% of the cards to be between 2 and 4. This list is personal opinion, and I'm pretty sure most people will agree or 1 number difference.

Also on the "13" 1's you are seeing, which ones are those?
Can't be any of the legendaries, because those are solid 1's
Rares it could be Frost Wizard, Plan C and Gigantity but the rest are also solid 1's
At the uncommons all the 1's are cards I have NEVER seen someone play before, and personally I won't even consider putting them in my deck.
At the commons I really just compared them with the other commons, also cards I would never use ( for example, Mortar strike is really only good when you got Elimination Specialist with Trinket. )

jtatta
12-11-2013, 02:15 PM
Sure, I'll list the 13 "1's" that are incorrectly labeled:

1. Resurrection
2. Protectorate Defender
3. Plan C
4. Goblin Cooking Pot
5. Necessary Sacrifice
6. Boltpaw Wizard
7. Forgotten Lord
8. Polymorph: Dingler
9. Dandelion Sprite
10. Succulant Roostasaur
11. Sorrow
12. Sapphire Aura
13. Misfortune

So, as I was saying, at least nine of those cards have been in winning decks played by streamers in the Tournament of Streamers. I can cite other ways that I can discredit your list but there's really no point. The fact that you have cards that aren't even in game yet on the list should discredit it enough.

Furthermore, "most people" don't agree with you, even by one number off. The comments in this thread are proof enough. Listen, I don't care that you have this list, I just care that you're making out to be something that it isn't. I'm all about varying opinions but suggesting people use this as a guide is very far fetched.

Struyk
12-11-2013, 02:46 PM
Sure, I'll list the 13 "1's" that are incorrectly labeled:

1. Resurrection
2. Protectorate Defender
3. Plan C
4. Goblin Cooking Pot
5. Necessary Sacrifice
6. Boltpaw Wizard
7. Forgotten Lord
8. Polymorph: Dingler
9. Dandelion Sprite
10. Succulant Roostasaur
11. Sorrow
12. Sapphire Aura
13. Misfortune

So, as I was saying, at least nine of those cards have been in winning decks played by streamers in the Tournament of Streamers. I can cite other ways that I can discredit your list but there's really no point. The fact that you have cards that aren't even in game yet on the list should discredit it enough.

Again, my opinions. I played this game alot, am very clever and played tcg's for about 4000 hours total.

1. Worst card in the game, you'll never ever be able to get this one out on the field, I tried with ramping wild cards to support it but it's not doable. And even if you get it out then I'm pretty sure that King Gabriel or Ozawa is a better choice. This should be a 6-7 cost without the 2/2 bonus to make it valid.
2. Has to be a 2/2 or has to get sent back to hand to make it valid. Any 2-1 with 2 cost and an useless ability is junk IMO. Ability actually works negative, because you don't want to draw him again mid to late game.
3. Actually made a deck with this card today, it's pretty good when combined with Lord Alexander, will consider moving this one to 3 togather with Lord Alexander.
4. Didn't see the change yet, it used to be a 1 cost, 1 cost action, 1 damage and remove 1 card from top of deck, moving this one to 3.
5. You don't want to skip a whole turn ( 4 resources ) to draw 2 extra cards ( 3 - itself ), this could be a 2 max
6. Big fat 1, has to be 5-5 or bury top 2 cards to make it valid. 1, there's pretty much nothing you want to revert on your shin'hares and 2, -1 card in deck for -1 troop? Who would do that?
7. Tried this one many times, but every time I did manage to get him out I wish I had Mystic Spiritwalker or Angelic Ascension instead because he costs way to much, has to be 4 cost to make him valid.
8. For 5 cost, 2 threshold you get something worse than murder/inner conflict/mesmerize. Has to be 3 cost to make it valid.
9. Sorry but if you think this one has to be a 2 or even a 3 you are just trolling.
10. Only good when you have a shitload of 0-1 shinhare's, 95% of the time I don't want to exhaust ANY troop to get +1/+1 on ANYTHING because thats -1 blocker.
11. Worst blood card hands down, to be valid it has to atleast reduce health and cost a bit more to compensate. Only reducing damage won't do shit 99% of the time, or maybe protect your champion from 1-4 damage but that would be an epic waste of a card slot.
12. Didn't see this one is quick action, moving to 3.
13. You tell me when you get a game where you have 2 resources and enemy still has more than 1 card in his hand AND at the same time you want to waste 5 resources to deal 2 damage and discard up to two cards when instead you couldve had Rot Caster or even Headless Executioner instead.

Storm_Fireblade
12-11-2013, 02:56 PM
Necessary Sacrifice, Sprite, Roostasaur, Boltpaw Wizard....I just see amazing cards here *wonders*

Svenn
12-11-2013, 03:01 PM
Svenn problem with Bone Warrior is the 4 cost to get him back. It should be free with tap or 1 cost IMO
And jtatta I want 95% of the cards to be between 2 and 4. This list is personal opinion, and I'm pretty sure most people will agree or 1 number difference.
Xentoth's Inquisitor costs 3 the first cast... then 5, then 7, then 9, etc. And it's a 1 defense creature so it dies really easy. Yet you recognize that this isn't underpowered at all (and in fact I'd lean that towards the overpowered columns). Bone Warrior is only 2, then 4 every time after. It just keeps coming back over and over for the same cost forever. With the current wording there is no revert... so any buffs on it stay every time it transforms too. It doesn't get a gem slot, but that can still give you a decent card advantage if used right. Again, this card isn't even out yet and will likely change anyway, but this just seems inconsistent to me.

Also, living totem needing a buff? Definitely not. It's already a great card. A 2/2 for 2 cost/1 threshold is not bad at all, but then you can turn it into anything you want with extra resources. Pump it up for defending/brute force, make it flying to block fliers or sneak through damage against a deck without flying, etc.

Gwaer
12-11-2013, 03:06 PM
He's obviously trolling, First post a list with very questionable details, keeps referring to how clever he is. Sorry not buying it, I don't suggest you guys keep going at it. I mean look at his reasoning behind those 13 1's. There's no way this is legit.

Muoteck
12-11-2013, 03:06 PM
11. Worst blood card hands down, to be valid it has to atleast reduce health and cost a bit more to compensate. Only reducing damage won't do shit 99% of the time, or maybe protect your champion from 1-4 damage but that would be an epic waste of a card slot.
But.. it does reduce health (http://i.imgur.com/zdnl68c.png).
Wait, are you even basing your list on actual in-game cards or just early preview versions, in which case many are outdated?

Struyk
12-11-2013, 03:07 PM
Xentoth's Inquisitor costs 3 the first cast... then 5, then 7, then 9, etc. And it's a 1 defense creature so it dies really easy. Yet you recognize that this isn't underpowered at all (and in fact I'd lean that towards the overpowered columns). Bone Warrior is only 2, then 4 every time after. It just keeps coming back over and over for the same cost forever. With the current wording there is no revert... so any buffs on it stay every time it transforms too. It doesn't get a gem slot, but that can still give you a decent card advantage if used right. Again, this card isn't even out yet and will likely change anyway, but this just seems inconsistent to me.

Also, living totem needing a buff? Definitely not. It's already a great card. A 2/2 for 2 cost/1 threshold is not bad at all, but then you can turn it into anything you want with extra resources. Pump it up for defending/brute force, make it flying to block fliers or sneak through damage against a deck without flying, etc.

Yes Xentoth's Inquisitor is a 3 cost, then a 5 cost, and then you'll have it in your hand for the rest of the game. If enemy has any 1/1 he's already useless. And if you don't understand that you really should not be paying 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! resources to get a 1-2 back then please do not reply again. Imagine what else you could do with 4 resources in a decent deck? ALSO, if you have no cards in hand, 4 resources left and transfer him back then he probably still won't make a difference.

On Living Totem: I listed that one as 2 simply because it's a rare card, if it was a common ( which it should be ) then it would be listed as a 3. It's probably the worst Rare in the game right now.


But.. it does reduce health.

I should stop using Hex TCG Browser lol... It's still listed as -1/-0 there, just like Bravery was 2 cost for +1/+1 and now is 1 cost ( suggested both changes )


He's obviously trolling, First post a list with very questionable details, keeps referring to how clever he is. Sorry not buying it, I don't suggest you guys keep going at it. I mean look at his reasoning behind those 13 1's. There's no way this is legit.

Just wait untill we get any form of rankings/tournaments. If you know infinity wars, I was 1st/2nd place for the first 3 weeks untill I quit playing. MTG I won many tourneys / drafts. And honestly ( this may sound weird ) this game is all about intellect and luck. I don't mind someone with the iq of 100 making a list of cards that are listed under 1 that he thinks should be under 3, but after someone with the iq of 136 explains to him why they are there and then someone with the iq of 80 makes a retarded comment like this then something inside me snaps.

jtatta
12-11-2013, 03:10 PM
I've played this game a lot too, have much more time played than you do, and am also very clever. I also won the first "unofficial" Hex tournament. I'm not here to have a pissing contest though. You want to read about my past accolades, use the internet.

Your reasoning for the listed cards is so far off that many of them aren't even talking about but I'll point out a few that are so wrong that it's laughable:

Resurrection: On the contrary, it's one of the most powerful cards in the game. In a deck that Neo and I made, it's the focal point and led a HexTCGPro member to an undefeated record through the one-loss bracket of the newcomers pool in the most recent tournament. The card is very difficult to answer and will win any control mirror match over the course of a few turns. When you can continually bring back a Uruunaz, it's very difficult to lose the game. The cost is prohibitive for a reason and it's justified. That said, it's rather easy to cast off of a Hex Engine.

Protectorate Defender: Your understanding (or lack thereof) of this card is a clear example of why your opinion should be kept as just that. It's a two-cost, major socketed, value troop. There's no such thing as a 1-rating for a troop with a major socket that can come down on turn two. It's extremely flexible and can't be "removed" for good unless it's voided. Not really sure how you can even argue this unless you also think that gems are garbage. (Hint: They're not.)

Boltpaw Wizard: I was on the fence about this guy until I played with him a bit more. Not only does he clear off Inner Conflict from your troops making it a dead card, it clears off -any- permanent buff or debuff on a troop. Pairs extremely well with Shin'hare Highborn (as does Necessary Sacrifice) and also enables you to activate Resurrection every single turn by sacrificing the troop that you want to Resurrect.

Dandelion Sprite: Are you sure you've played this game? No, I'm not trolling. This is an auto four-of in any mono-Wild deck as it's a two cost Spellshield troop that gets out of hand with Root Dancer very quickly. Add to that it's also good with any other permanent buff effect (that Wild has plenty of). You either don't know what Spellshield does or you just don't know what a well-balanced card is. Either way, your assessment of this card is miles off.

Sorrow: Go read the card. I'll wait ... ok, you're welcome. One of the the best sideboard cards in the game.

Misfortune: Tune in to my stream from time to time.

I'm happy to evaluate the "2's" with you as well but there are far more wrong there than you even had with the "1's"

Svenn
12-11-2013, 03:13 PM
Again, my opinions. I played this game alot, am very clever and played tcg's for about 4000 hours total.

1. Worst card in the game, you'll never ever be able to get this one out on the field, I tried with ramping wild cards to support it but it's not doable. And even if you get it out then I'm pretty sure that King Gabriel or Ozawa is a better choice. This should be a 6-7 cost without the 2/2 bonus to make it valid.
I've used Resurrection successfully and it's a good game changer. I wouldn't call it a great card, but I think it's fine where it is.

2. Has to be a 2/2 or has to get sent back to hand to make it valid. Any 2-1 with 2 cost and an useless ability is junk IMO. Ability actually works negative, because you don't want to draw him again mid to late game.
He has a gem slot... you can make him a 3/2 for 2 cost, or a 2/1 swiftstrike, or a 2/1 with lifedrain...



5. You don't want to skip a whole turn ( 4 resources ) to draw 2 extra cards ( 3 - itself ), this could be a 2 max
I'm not sure you quite understand how powerful draw is, or what card advantage is...



8. For 5 cost, 2 threshold you get something worse than murder/inner conflict/mesmerize. Has to be 3 cost to make it valid.It's a little expensive, but you're removing all special abilities on it. Also, they can't even bring the card back using Call to the Grave or something.

9. Sorry but if you think this one has to be a 2 or even a 3 you are just trolling.
Dandelion Sprite is a good card. If you think it is a 1 you are nuts.



13. You tell me when you get a game where you have 2 resources and enemy still has more than 1 card in his hand AND at the same time you want to waste 5 resources to deal 2 damage and discard up to two cards when instead you couldve had Rot Caster or even Headless Executioner instead.
Again, you clearly have no concept of card advantage.

Your whole post comes off as very condescending and you seem to think you know everything, yet there are a ton of people here with plenty of TCG experience who are disagreeing with large portions of your list. Sorry, but you are not some messiah of TCG design. :-/

Gwaer
12-11-2013, 03:16 PM
I'm glad people are finally coming around to boltpaw wizard, when I spoiled him at gencon I was immediately in love.

heavyhitter86
12-11-2013, 03:30 PM
OP, I think you should respectfully watch some streamers on Twitch. I am new to TCG's and have seen combo's and cards that I would initially think were garbage used to great success. I am not doubting your intelligence, cleverness, or the time it took you to compile this list but seeing these cards in action in various decks is very enlightening.


My .02

Struyk
12-11-2013, 03:46 PM
I've played this game a lot too, have much more time played than you do, and am also very clever. I also won the first "unofficial" Hex tournament. I'm not here to have a pissing contest though. You want to read about my past accolades, use the internet.

Your reasoning for the listed cards is so far off that many of them aren't even talking about but I'll point out a few that are so wrong that it's laughable:

Resurrection: On the contrary, it's one of the most powerful cards in the game. In a deck that Neo and I made, it's the focal point and led a HexTCGPro member to an undefeated record through the one-loss bracket of the newcomers pool in the most recent tournament. The card is very difficult to answer and will win any control mirror match over the course of a few turns. When you can continually bring back a Uruunaz, it's very difficult to lose the game. The cost is prohibitive for a reason and it's justified. That said, it's rather easy to cast off of a Hex Engine.

Protectorate Defender: Your understanding (or lack thereof) of this card is a clear example of why your opinion should be kept as just that. It's a two-cost, major socketed, value troop. There's no such thing as a 1-rating for a troop with a major socket that can come down on turn two. It's extremely flexible and can't be "removed" for good unless it's voided. Not really sure how you can even argue this unless you also think that gems are garbage. (Hint: They're not.)

Boltpaw Wizard: I was on the fence about this guy until I played with him a bit more. Not only does he clear off Inner Conflict from your troops making it a dead card, it clears off -any- permanent buff or debuff on a troop. Pairs extremely well with Shin'hare Highborn (as does Necessary Sacrifice) and also enables you to activate Resurrection every single turn by sacrificing the troop that you want to Resurrect.

Dandelion Sprite: Are you sure you've played this game? No, I'm not trolling. This is an auto four-of in any mono-Wild deck as it's a two cost Spellshield troop that gets out of hand with Root Dancer very quickly. Add to that it's also good with any other permanent buff effect (that Wild has plenty of). You either don't know what Spellshield does or you just don't know what a well-balanced card is. Either way, your assessment of this card is miles off.

Sorrow: Go read the card. I'll wait ... ok, you're welcome. One of the the best sideboard cards in the game.

Misfortune: Tune in to my stream from time to time.

I'm happy to evaluate the "2's" with you as well but there are far more wrong there than you even had with the "1's"

Lol sorry but you are asking for it:

Resurrection: YES op with Uruunaz ( but Uruunaz alone is enough to win 95% ). YES it's good with Hex engine ( but there are still way better cards to combine with Hex Engine ). And what if you have nothing to revive? What if all your troops are still alive? What if you only have crappy troops to revive? What if enemy destroys it? What if enemy has Inner Conflict, Mesmerize or any other control spell that disables your troops but won't kill them? What if The enemy also has many resources and plays something like Eternal Guardian, Argus, Herald of Doom, The Kraken or Wrathwood Colossus, of which I'm sure that all work better than Resurrection. I would go for Eternal Guardian over Resurrection in ANY deck at ANY given time.

Protectorate Defender: The Diamond gems are all pretty much useless on him because of his low def and cost. With having 1 hp he will get destroyed / blocked by pretty much every meta card in the game right now. Even Sorrow or a 1/1 would totally screw him. And most importantly, YOU DO NOT WANT TO PUT HIM BACK IN YOUR DECK BECAUSE YOU DO NOT WANT TO DRAW HIM AFTER TURN 2/3. Imagine drawing this guy at round 5 or round 12.... I'm pretty sure I would just have to surrender if that happens.

Boltpaw Wizard: You do not want to destroy a troop to revert another troop, unless you have a high cost card with inner conflict / mesmerize on him. But haha, you won't, because you are playing a shin'hare deck when you choose this guy. I got 4 shin'hare decks, 3 of them used this guy, and on all 3 I removed him because he just totally lost me the game every single time I played him when I couldve played ANY OTHER 5 cost card like my enemy did. Yes his revert is good, but do you really want to pay 5 + 1 and sacrifice a troop on top of it? -1 troop = -1 blocker.

Dandelion Sprite: This one has spellshield, Wild Root Dancer doesnt. Destroy wild root dancer == nullify both. On top of that, it will pretty much get owned by anything before you got 3 wild threshold. Which means you'll need to have 3 resources to summon wild root dancer, then summon this one and play another wild resources. This leaves you with 7 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 - 6 cards to defend yourself with if you don't draw to many resources. And if wild root dancer dies, you are left with a 3/4 with spellshield and flying that has costed 2 cards ( Wild Root Dancer + Dandelion Sprite ), 6 resources ( 4 + 2 ) and 2 turns ( 1 turn to play wild root dancer, one turn to play her + resources ).

Sorrow: There's no sideboard yet, nothing in my list is effected by sideboard and I thought it was -1/0 like it used to be.

Misfortune: Why would I want to watch your stream if you are stupid enough to use this one over any of the other, way better 5 cost cards blood has to offer? Seriously if enemy has no cards in hand, it's just a 2 damage. If enemy does have cards in hand it are probably cards that he won't be playing/needing like resources, weaklings or situational cards.

Thanks for the conversation, I'm pretty sure this changed your mind about those cards otherwise I have no hope for you because you are stubborn as hell ( I am also, but atleast I know my facts ). Going to bed now, have fun!

jtatta
12-11-2013, 03:53 PM
Lol sorry but you are asking for it:

Resurrection: YES op with Uruunaz ( but Uruunaz alone is enough to win 95% ). YES it's good with Hex engine ( but there are still way better cards to combine with Hex Engine ). And what if you have nothing to revive? What if all your troops are still alive? What if you only have crappy troops to revive? What if enemy destroys it? What if enemy has Inner Conflict, Mesmerize or any other control spell that disables your troops but won't kill them? What if The enemy also has many resources and plays something like Eternal Guardian, Argus, Herald of Doom, The Kraken or Wrathwood Colossus, of which I'm sure that all work better than Resurrection. I would go for Eternal Guardian over Resurrection in ANY deck at ANY given time.

Protectorate Defender: The Diamond gems are all pretty much useless on him because of his low def and cost. With having 1 hp he will get destroyed / blocked by pretty much every meta card in the game right now. Even Sorrow or a 1/1 would totally screw him. And most importantly, YOU DO NOT WANT TO PUT HIM BACK IN YOUR DECK BECAUSE YOU DO NOT WANT TO DRAW HIM AFTER TURN 2/3. Imagine drawing this guy at round 5 or round 12.... I'm pretty sure I would just have to surrender if that happens.

Boltpaw Wizard: You do not want to destroy a troop to revert another troop, unless you have a high cost card with inner conflict / mesmerize on him. But haha, you won't, because you are playing a shin'hare deck when you choose this guy. I got 4 shin'hare decks, 3 of them used this guy, and on all 3 I removed him because he just totally lost me the game every single time I played him when I couldve played ANY OTHER 5 cost card like my enemy did. Yes his revert is good, but do you really want to pay 5 + 1 and sacrifice a troop on top of it? -1 troop = -1 blocker.

Dandelion Sprite: This one has spellshield, Wild Root Dancer doesnt. Destroy wild root dancer == nullify both. On top of that, it will pretty much get owned by anything before you got 3 wild threshold. Which means you'll need to have 3 resources to summon wild root dancer, then summon this one and play another wild resources. This leaves you with 7 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 - 6 cards to defend yourself with if you don't draw to many resources. And if wild root dancer dies, you are left with a 3/4 with spellshield and flying that has costed 2 cards ( Wild Root Dancer + Dandelion Sprite ), 6 resources ( 4 + 2 ) and 2 turns ( 1 turn to play wild root dancer, one turn to play her + resources ).

Sorrow: There's no sideboard yet, nothing in my list is effected by sideboard and I thought it was -1/0 like it used to be.

Misfortune: Why would I want to watch your stream if you are stupid enough to use this one over any of the other, way better 5 cost cards blood has to offer? Seriously if enemy has no cards in hand, it's just a 2 damage. If enemy does have cards in hand it are probably cards that he won't be playing/needing like resources, weaklings or situational cards.

Thanks for the converstation, I'm pretty sure this changed your mind about those cards otherwise I have no hope for you because you are stubborn as hell ( I am also, but atleast I know my facts ). Going to bed now, have fun!

I'm not even going to address this nonsense. I'll let other people take care of you. I'll just keep letting the results speak for my reasoning. By the way, you can watch me on the Hex TCG stream tomorrow so you don't actually have to tune in to my own stream to see someone who has actually played the game a few times.

Good night!

Lawlschool
12-11-2013, 03:58 PM
By the way, you can watch me on the Hex TCG stream tomorrow.

Y'all going to be streaming the new tourney feature?

Struyk
12-11-2013, 04:00 PM
I dare you to play a deck with Boltpaw Wizard on the stream, show me how good it is compared to Xarlox the Brood Lord, The Mushwocky, Shadowgrove Witch, Corrupt Harvester, Demented Demolisher, Headless Executioner, Rot Caster, High Tomb Lord, Sadistic Castigator and Xentoth's Chosen which are all about the same cost and valid in any blood deck even shin'hare decks especially Xentoth.

jtatta
12-11-2013, 04:00 PM
Y'all going to be streaming the new tourney feature?

To be completely honest, I'm not 100% what/how we're doing it. I believe we'll just be on skype together and battling some games. We will be playing interactive decks so people don't get bored watching control vs control. :)

jtatta
12-11-2013, 04:01 PM
I dare you to play a deck with Boltpaw Wizard on the stream, show me how good it is compared to Xarlox the Brood Lord, Headless Executioner, Rot Caster, High Tomb Lord, Sadistic Castigator and Xentoth's Chosen which are all about the same cost and valid in any blood deck even shin'hare decks especially Xentoth.

Yeah, no problem. One of the decks I'll be playing has Boltpaw Wizard. I'll sign it for you.

Maphalux
12-11-2013, 04:02 PM
I can't tell if this thread is serious or not.

Lawlschool
12-11-2013, 04:08 PM
To be completely honest, I'm not 100% what/how we're doing it. I believe we'll just be on skype together and battling some games. We will be playing interactive decks so people don't get bored watching control vs control. :)

Sweet, I'll have to check it out. Definitely be nice to see some non-control decks, getting kinda tired of playing with / against them tbh. Been trying to make more aggro decks, maybe I'll find some inspiration from the streams!

Struyk
12-11-2013, 04:09 PM
I can't tell if this thread is serious or not.

I can't tell if Clan BlackBlade recruits people with the iq higher than that of a monkey or not :S
No offence, but if you think this thread is not serious, then why the <removed> do you bother posting?
Pretty sure a monkey would.

LargoLaGrande
12-11-2013, 04:10 PM
Lol sorry but you are asking for it:

Resurrection: YES op with Uruunaz ( but Uruunaz alone is enough to win 95% ). YES it's good with Hex engine ( but there are still way better cards to combine with Hex Engine ). And what if you have nothing to revive? What if all your troops are still alive? What if you only have crappy troops to revive? What if enemy destroys it? What if enemy has Inner Conflict, Mesmerize or any other control spell that disables your troops but won't kill them? What if The enemy also has many resources and plays something like Eternal Guardian, Argus, Herald of Doom, The Kraken or Wrathwood Colossus, of which I'm sure that all work better than Resurrection. I would go for Eternal Guardian over Resurrection in ANY deck at ANY given time.


I shall answer your questions in order. Then cast something else that turn. Then you are winning the game. Then you are playing Resurrection in the wrong deck. Then I guess you don't automatically win that game. Then play sac outlets or Extinction (or Boltpaw Wizard). Then maybe you should be running spot removal.



Protectorate Defender: The Diamond gems are all pretty much useless on him because of his low def and cost. With having 1 hp he will get destroyed / blocked by pretty much every meta card in the game right now. Even Sorrow or a 1/1 would totally screw him. And most importantly, YOU DO NOT WANT TO PUT HIM BACK IN YOUR DECK BECAUSE YOU DO NOT WANT TO DRAW HIM AFTER TURN 2/3. Imagine drawing this guy at round 5 or round 12.... I'm pretty sure I would just have to surrender if that happens.


Perhaps you should run something to removal blockers than. And if you don't want to draw him after turn 4 you have two choices: be more aggressive and run gems to support like the major Diamond or Ruby gems so you win the game by then, or run gems that make him a threat late, like the major Sapphire or Wild gems.



Boltpaw Wizard: You do not want to destroy a troop to revert another troop, unless you have a high cost card with inner conflict / mesmerize on him. But haha, you won't, because you are playing a shin'hare deck when you choose this guy. I got 4 shin'hare decks, 3 of them used this guy, and on all 3 I removed him because he just totally lost me the game every single time I played him when I couldve played ANY OTHER 5 cost card like my enemy did. Yes his revert is good, but do you really want to pay 5 + 1 and sacrifice a troop on top of it? -1 troop = -1 blocker.


You do not need to play Shin'hare in tribal Shin'hare decks. One of the greatest Goblins (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/126.html) ever printed in magic has no place in a goblin deck. He is a utility creature, and is used for that utility. Cheap, repeatable reversion has value. Sacrificing creatures has value. Being a 3/3 has value.

What is blocking?



Dandelion Sprite: This one has spellshield, Wild Root Dancer doesnt. Destroy wild root dancer == nullify both. On top of that, it will pretty much get owned by anything before you got 3 wild threshold. Which means you'll need to have 3 resources to summon wild root dancer, then summon this one and play another wild resources. This leaves you with 7 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 - 6 cards to defend yourself with if you don't draw to many resources. And if wild root dancer dies, you are left with a 3/4 with spellshield and flying that has costed 2 cards ( Wild Root Dancer + Dandelion Sprite ), 6 resources ( 4 + 2 ) and 2 turns ( 1 turn to play wild root dancer, one turn to play her + resources ).


No my friend. You are left with a 3/4 that must be answered that cost you 1 card and a land drop. Unless you chumped with your Root Dancer that is.



Sorrow: There's no sideboard yet, nothing in my list is effected by sideboard and I thought it was -1/0 like it used to be.


I noticed. I wouldn't comment on the lack of consideration of sideboards/limited in your list except you seem to be advocating buffs/nerfs while ignoring cards that are perfectly fine in their roles as sideboard (Total Meltdown/Imp Hoodlums) or limited fodder (Cavern Commando/Effigy of Nulzann). That seems very shortsighted to me, and calls into question your claim of experience with MTG limited and constructed.



Misfortune: Why would I want to watch your stream if you are stupid enough to use this one over any of the other, way better 5 cost cards blood has to offer? Seriously if enemy has no cards in hand, it's just a 2 damage. If enemy does have cards in hand it are probably cards that he won't be playing/needing like resources, weaklings or situational cards.

Thanks for the converstation, I'm pretty sure this changed your mind about those cards otherwise I have no hope for you because you are stubborn as hell ( I am also, but atleast I know my facts ). Going to bed now, have fun!

So troll.

Struyk
12-11-2013, 04:23 PM
I DID NOT LOOK AT SIDEBOARD BECAUSE THERE CURRENTLY IS NO SIDEBOARD AND THIS LIST IS FOR THE CURRENT ALPHA PVP.
The buffs/nerfs are just an indicator, I will change this to not worth using and overpowered.

Let me be extra clear on the spelldancer with FACTS ONLY:
1, The chance you get to play a Wild Root Dancer + Dandelion Sprite + Resource are very low
2, If it doesn't get buffed, it's a 1 damage per turn for 2 cost
3, If wild root dancer dies, you are left with a 3/4 with spellshield and flying that has costed 2 cards ( Wild Root Dancer + Dandelion Sprite ), 6 resources ( 4 + 2 ) and 2 turns ( 1 turn to play wild root dancer, one turn to play her + resources ).
4, Sucks drawing her mid to late game because 1, you probably wont have any resource to buff her with Wild Root Dancer and 2, I can think of something better than a 1/2 when I have 3+ resources.

These are all FACTS!


Not even going to reply to the other things you said

Oh god, is this d2jsp? Monkey everywhere.

jtatta
12-11-2013, 04:28 PM
I DID NOT LOOK AT SIDEBOARD BECAUSE THERE CURRENTLY IS NO SIDEBOARD AND THIS LIST IS FOR THE CURRENT ALPHA PVP.
The buffs/nerfs are just an indicator, I will change this to not worth using and overpowered.

Let me be extra clear on the spelldancer with FACTS ONLY:
1, The chance you get to play a Wild Root Dancer + Dandelion Sprite + Resource are very low
2, If it doesn't get buffed, it's a 1 damage per turn for 2 cost
3, If wild root dancer dies, you are left with a 3/4 with spellshield and flying that has costed 2 cards ( Wild Root Dancer + Dandelion Sprite ), 6 resources ( 4 + 2 ) and 2 turns ( 1 turn to play wild root dancer, one turn to play her + resources ).
4, Sucks drawing her mid to late game because 1, you probably wont have any resource to buff her with Wild Root Dancer and 2, I can think of something better than a 1/2 when I have 3+ resources.

These are all FACTS!


Not even going to reply to the other things you said

Oh god, is this d2jsp? Monkey everywhere.

Trolling from bed, I see? Thought you were going to sleep.

1-4 are all in accurate. Maybe if you actually played the cards properly, you'd figure out why this is a good combination. If you still can't figure it out, I'll explain it to you very slowly.

Storm_Fireblade
12-11-2013, 04:29 PM
Let me be extra clear on the spelldancer with FACTS ONLY:
1, The chance you get to play a Wild Root Dancer + Dandelion Sprite + Resource are very low
2, If it doesn't get buffed, it's a 1 damage per turn for 2 cost
3, If wild root dancer dies, you are left with a 3/4 with spellshield and flying that has costed 2 cards ( Wild Root Dancer + Dandelion Sprite ), 6 resources ( 4 + 2 ) and 2 turns ( 1 turn to play wild root dancer, one turn to play her + resources ).
4, Sucks drawing her mid to late game because 1, you probably wont have any resource to buff her with Wild Root Dancer and 2, I can think of something better than a 1/2 when I have 3+ resources.

These are all FACTS!

How does a Sprite "cost" the Dancer, which your opponent used a card on to remove? Removing the Dancer is a 1 for 1 while you still got at least a buff out of your card. Your calculations are very odd, sorry to say that.

Lawlschool
12-11-2013, 04:37 PM
Stop feeding him. He's trying to get some sleep and you shouldn't eat a lot before bed!

DackFayden
12-11-2013, 05:10 PM
Topic on balancing started talking about wild root dancer again, seems legit. Well Struyk started another thread, which I felt placed the topic on a very important issue Meta v. Balance. Somehow this is a similar topic according to shaggy so I'll try to post on-topicish here:

Meta is a task I feel should soley belong to game-players, while Balancing is a task that should belong to game designers. My definition of Meta v. Balancing

Meta: The game beyond the game. Popular decks that arise and the decks made to counter those popular decks are considered meta. For example I play Dan who LOVES artifacts. So next I make a heavy artifact removal deck, just to beat Dan's deck. Next consider Dan loves to play grindy decks that with a very strong late game. So I, wanting to beat Dan, design a deck with a very strong early game hoping to be aggresive enough to win before he gains... control.

Balance: Core design of a card. When a card is either SOOO good if you're playing the colors you better be playing the card. Or when a card is SOOO bad it'll never see the light of play, even in limited. Designers do this to give cards value/flavor/diversity in constructed and limited. Balance issues rise when a card is forcing people to play those shards to even have a chance at winning. For example let's say Dan has a card that is 5/5 spellshield angel for 1 cost. I'd probably lose so much I'd eventually decide "If you can't beat em join em". Eventually it'd be 5/5 angel or Bust as a Meta.

So from my view its up to designers to keep the Meta diverse in their design and balance of cards. Make sure 1 deck type isn't the surefire way to go. It's more work on the designers part because they have to guess at what Meta might form and they're not always on the ball(Jace, the game winner + Stoneforge consistency).

For players the hard part is knowing when you're losing to a card actually being OP versus your deck just not being a good matchup. Unfortunately with HEX everyone wants to build a control/aggro type deck, but maybe a sea of midrange is what the game is about. We'll have to see how the Meta develops. So far I've only seen old escalation actually be OP.

Eierdotter
12-11-2013, 05:54 PM
Well this got out of hand rather quick...

first there was a personal list of cards with a rating system based on ... personal preference it seems.

now we have a big shitstorm going on.

i thought this was a serious thread, after reading the explanations why cards "suck" OP is either drunk or out of his mind.
lets give this a night to think about and rework the reasoning.

@Struyk: If you want to base your list on the metagame you should consider watching the streams, especially the upcoming Streamers Tournament2 (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=31163) this weekend, hosted by Soldack the guy who got famous in the community by shoutcasting games on YouTube/hexcasters with his incomparable enthusiasm.
This is the current only place to actually see the Metagame and the cards that are beeing played in action.
If you are not trolling (seems very unlikely after your reasoning post), you should try to get some inside views on the meta, maybe you are able to get out of the pit you are digging.
And you may think you are very smart but keep in mind, there is always a asian guy....

Unhurtable
12-11-2013, 06:29 PM
There is a reason your Dentist is not your Doctor, he is not qualified for it. Likewise you are not qualified to make a balance list.

And it seems nobody will ever be qualified because there have been very few instances of actual good balancing.


I can't tell if Clan BlackBlade recruits people with the iq higher than that of a monkey or not :S
No offence, but if you think this thread is not serious, then why the <removed> do you bother posting?
Pretty sure a monkey would.

Yes because throwing feces is totally not something a monkey would do either.


I DID NOT LOOK AT SIDEBOARD BECAUSE THERE CURRENTLY IS NO SIDEBOARD AND THIS LIST IS FOR THE CURRENT ALPHA PVP.
The buffs/nerfs are just an indicator, I will change this to not worth using and overpowered.

Why would you balance a game around the alpha?



Let me be extra clear on the spelldancer with FACTS ONLY:
1, The chance you get to play a Wild Root Dancer + Dandelion Sprite + Resource are very low
2, If it doesn't get buffed, it's a 1 damage per turn for 2 cost
3, If wild root dancer dies, you are left with a 3/4 with spellshield and flying that has costed 2 cards ( Wild Root Dancer + Dandelion Sprite ), 6 resources ( 4 + 2 ) and 2 turns ( 1 turn to play wild root dancer, one turn to play her + resources ).
4, Sucks drawing her mid to late game because 1, you probably wont have any resource to buff her with Wild Root Dancer and 2, I can think of something better than a 1/2 when I have 3+ resources.

6 resources?
Turn 1: Resource
2 : Resource
3 : Resource + sprite
4 : Root Dancer + resource
Did I miss something or did you?


Oh god, is this d2jsp? Monkey everywhere.

Yes because using indirect ad hominem attacks is totally a good sign of being on the winning side.

stiii
12-11-2013, 06:36 PM
I can't tell if Clan BlackBlade recruits people with the iq higher than that of a monkey or not :S
No offence, but if you think this thread is not serious, then why the <removed> do you bother posting?
Pretty sure a monkey would.

I mean it seemed pretty clear he thought your OP wasn't serious, and for good reason.


Your OP doesn't sound like someone who has ever played a TCG before it uses all kinds of odd terms. Your ongoing posts in this thread support this too. Why exactly should we listen to you on balance issues exactly?

funktion
12-11-2013, 11:16 PM
I go away for a day and a half only to come back to see that this thread actually made it past my mushwocky comment on the first page...

Gwaer
12-11-2013, 11:21 PM
Shh, Stii, Jtatta, and I are on the same side of an issue. Planets are aligning. Ragnarok approaches.

purple-one
12-12-2013, 12:03 AM
I DID NOT LOOK AT SIDEBOARD BECAUSE THERE CURRENTLY IS NO SIDEBOARD AND THIS LIST IS FOR THE CURRENT ALPHA PVP.
The buffs/nerfs are just an indicator, I will change this to not worth using and overpowered.

Let me be extra clear on the spelldancer with FACTS ONLY:
1, The chance you get to play a Wild Root Dancer + Dandelion Sprite + Resource are very low
2, If it doesn't get buffed, it's a 1 damage per turn for 2 cost
3, If wild root dancer dies, you are left with a 3/4 with spellshield and flying that has costed 2 cards ( Wild Root Dancer + Dandelion Sprite ), 6 resources ( 4 + 2 ) and 2 turns ( 1 turn to play wild root dancer, one turn to play her + resources ).
4, Sucks drawing her mid to late game because 1, you probably wont have any resource to buff her with Wild Root Dancer and 2, I can think of something better than a 1/2 when I have 3+ resources.

These are all FACTS!


Not even going to reply to the other things you said

Oh god, is this d2jsp? Monkey everywhere.

If you only look for the current alpha pvp, then why are there pve and other cards who current not in alpha on your list?

VeScorp
12-12-2013, 01:14 AM
I dare you to play a deck with Boltpaw Wizard on the stream, show me how good it is compared to Xarlox the Brood Lord, The Mushwocky, Shadowgrove Witch, Corrupt Harvester, Demented Demolisher, Headless Executioner, Rot Caster, High Tomb Lord, Sadistic Castigator and Xentoth's Chosen which are all about the same cost and valid in any blood deck even shin'hare decks especially Xentoth.

Excuse me, did you really say Xentoth's Chosen is viable?

Also, of the things not mentioned (and\or not implemented yet) Bone Warrior and Roostasaur in 1's look quite funny

DackFayden
12-12-2013, 01:35 AM
The old tcg player problem:

1) Two tcg players blatantly dismiss each others view on a card/strategy.

2) Proceed to have an argument without trying to view things from the others perspective, cuz it's all "logical"

3) In the end only frustration. No resolution and no one learned anything.

Pro-tip: No need to argue just trust your fate to the Heart Of The Cards, no matter what.

VeScorp
12-12-2013, 01:41 AM
The old tcg player problem:

1) Two tcg players blatantly dismiss each others view on a card/strategy.

2) Proceed to have an argument without trying to view things from the others perspective, cuz it's all "logical"

3) In the end only frustration. No resolution and no one learned anything.

Pro-tip: No need to argue just trust your fate to the Heart Of The Cards, no matter what.

It's not about arguing as itself, it's about someone giving terrible advices to people who are new to tcg's, and who might follow those advices because of lack of expirience

Eierdotter
12-12-2013, 03:40 AM
The old tcg player problem:

1) Two tcg players blatantly dismiss each others view on a card/strategy.

2) Proceed to have an argument without trying to view things from the others perspective, cuz it's all "logical"

3) In the end only frustration. No resolution and no one learned anything.

Pro-tip: No need to argue just trust your fate to the Heart Of The Cards, no matter what.

wrong! you do not trust into heart of the cards!
you argue until someone dies or loses internet connection!
:p

TheFallen
12-12-2013, 03:54 AM
No offense, but the list is terrible.

ossuary
12-12-2013, 05:52 AM
When I first started reading this thread, I thought it was either trolling, or stupid.

I later changed "or" to "and."

VeScorp
12-12-2013, 07:11 AM
When I first started reading this thread, I thought it was either trolling, or stupid.

I later changed "or" to "and."

I regret I've seen this only today - now I'm too lazy to read all the 7 pages of THIS =\

jetah
12-12-2013, 07:24 AM
And this is why I'm glad CZE isn't asking the community for 'balance' help.

Lawlschool
12-12-2013, 08:46 AM
wrong! you do not trust into heart of the cards!
you argue until someone dies or loses internet connection!
:p

Or until someone makes a comparison to Hitler. Good Ol' Godwin's Law. Forum arguments are srs biznss!

Vorpal
12-12-2013, 09:35 AM
But.. it does reduce health (http://i.imgur.com/zdnl68c.png).
Wait, are you even basing your list on actual in-game cards or just early preview versions, in which case many are outdated?

This list honestly sounds like about what I'd expect if someone played half a dozen games then looked at the card previews and decided to make a card tier list based almost entirely on theorycrafting.

stiii
12-12-2013, 10:27 AM
The old tcg player problem:

1) Two tcg players blatantly dismiss each others view on a card/strategy.

2) Proceed to have an argument without trying to view things from the others perspective, cuz it's all "logical"

3) In the end only frustration. No resolution and no one learned anything.

Pro-tip: No need to argue just trust your fate to the Heart Of The Cards, no matter what.

So if I said the moon is made of cheese you wouldn't blatantly dismiss my view? Instead you'd carefully explain why it isn't? At some point one side is just wrong.

DackFayden
12-12-2013, 10:59 AM
So if I said the moon is made of cheese you wouldn't blatantly dismiss my view? Instead you'd carefully explain why it isn't? At some point one side is just wrong.

"At some point one side is just wrong" Try going through life with that mentality and soon you'll start saying, "At some point one side is just right, but at what cost"

Example:
In my mind moon being made of cheese seems completely illogicial so I would try to convince while already dismissing your logic on the moon. Now if you didn't concede the issue easily and started telling everyone the moon was made of cheese. How much of my life would I give to fighting the moon issue, at what cost would i want to be right? Honestly I'd probably give up after investing time in the issue.

In the end only frustration. No resolution and no one learned anything.

luckily this is a tcg so all issues can be solved by trusting our fate to the Heart Of The Cards. ALL ISSUES

Lawlschool
12-12-2013, 11:10 AM
This list honestly sounds like about what I'd expect if someone played half a dozen games then looked at the card previews and decided to make a card tier list based almost entirely on theorycrafting.

It really does. All of his counter-arguments to why a card is bad are just all the reasons he can think of where a card wouldn't work, rather than thinking about all the ways in which a card can work. If you think about all the ways a card won't work, you're not really going to think any card is good. He also seems to be arguing over relative power levels of cards, thinking that if Card A is "better" than Card B you should always use card A, which completely ignores situational uses or potential interactions with other cards.

ossuary
12-12-2013, 11:56 AM
Headless Executioner is better than Polymorph: Dingler at the same cost, because you can attack with it!

Eierdotter
12-12-2013, 12:49 PM
Headless Executioner is better than Polymorph: Dingler at the same cost, because you can attack with it!

but the headless guy can not block, the dingler can... Dingler > Headless guy !

Maphalux
12-12-2013, 01:27 PM
Bigger body beat all. Timmy says Hulk SMASH!

Pseudoradius
12-12-2013, 05:45 PM
Hint: If it is supposed to be a Tier list, calling it a Balance List is simply asking for misunderstandings. Actually, it isn't just asking for it, it is actively causing them to happen. I suggest an asap name change.

stiii
12-12-2013, 06:43 PM
Hint: If it is supposed to be a Tier list, calling it a Balance List is simply asking for misunderstandings. Actually, it isn't just asking for it, it is actively causing them to happen. I suggest an asap name change.

It would also help if people explain what these terms mean. Tier list or balance list aren't commonly used by magic players or any other TCG I know about.

Falaris
12-13-2013, 03:32 AM
I gave up at Protectorate Defender being a 1. Its one of the best cards in the entire set for Diamond Aggro decks. An automatic 4 of.

Pseudoradius
12-13-2013, 03:58 AM
It would also help if people explain what these terms mean. Tier list or balance list aren't commonly used by magic players or any other TCG I know about.

In essence a tier list is ordering all cards from weakest to strongest, but since cards are generally incomparable, what is actually arranged are broad categories (aka Tiers) of cards which are roughly equally strong.
A balance list is basically the same thing, except that there is also a categories for cards which are too strong or too weak.