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View Full Version : Escalation should scale in cost when it escalates or start off much weaker.



VoidInsanity
12-12-2013, 12:03 PM
Escalation effects are extremely cost effective cards even without being escalated that get ridiculous extremely quickly with no disadvantage for doing so. Clash of the Beasts for example, its a 3 cost 3/3 troop with crush which is about the standard for a 3 cost card, then it doubles in potency on its next use. There is no reason to not take Clash or the Beasts over another 3 cost troop with similar stats, ever. Chronic Madness is in a similar spot, that card is way too cheap for how much milling it can do, the miller doesn't have to make a decision to play it or not, they spam it freely.


While an escalation card on its first use is as powerful as a non escalation card, is there any reason to use the non escalation card considering the current advantages of escalation? I honestly can't think of one.

Maphalux
12-12-2013, 12:17 PM
I'm not sure I agree.

Outside of crash of beasts, escalation cards are pretty inefficient for their first casting.

Rage fire costs 2 with two ruby threshold while burn only costs one with one threshold for the same damage and at quick speed as opposed to basic.

Chronic madness mills and that is all it does.

Relentless corruption is a three cost draw one spell that happens to draw off opponents deck. Not too exciting really.

Eternal youth gives you four life for three at basic speed while soothing breeze gives seven life for one at quick.

In order to really start seeing the true power of escalation, you have to draw multiple copies.

Crash of beasts is pretty strong but you need to be primarily wild to use it on turn three with its two wild threshold requirement. That limits your deck building options.

I think they are just fine as they are now.

Eierdotter
12-12-2013, 12:45 PM
you will most likely use teh non escalation card, until you can afford it.

escalation got a big balance fix recently. currentlythe cards are fine unless you get caught off guard.

Svenn
12-12-2013, 01:11 PM
you will most likely use teh non escalation card, until you can afford it.

escalation got a big balance fix recently. currentlythe cards are fine unless you get caught off guard.

This. With the change to Escalation they are fine where they are, imo. They are generally worse off than any non-escalation counterparts right now (except Crash of Beasts... 3/3 Crush for 3 is good even on the first cast).

Rathanel
12-12-2013, 03:36 PM
Until deck search cards show up, escalation is actually on the weakside overall. Like others have said, Crash of Beasts is the only one that's good in its own right in the first cast, and it's a matter of luck or control to keep the game going long enough to draw the escalation cards again.

Relentless Corruption is by far the weakest when you consider the expense and the odds of getting cards you can actually use (heavily depends on the opponents deck and color). It can be fun if it works out, but it's pretty slow to set up and ramps slowly as well.

Ragefire loses out to Burn early on and pumpable spells in the mid-game (4 or 6 damage is nice, but not when you need 7 to prevent a troop from killing you next turn).

Chronic Madness gets powerful quickly, and will be very strong once more mill and mill-complementing cards are implemented.

Eternal Youth I haven't actually played yet, but health gain is rarely a bad thing.

Crash of Beasts seems like the sweet spot to me.

blakegrandon
12-12-2013, 03:48 PM
Relentless Corruption is by far the weakest when you consider the expense and the odds of getting cards you can actually use (heavily depends on the opponents deck and color). It can be fun if it works out, but it's pretty slow to set up and ramps slowly as well.

I actually have a really really strong 3 color relentless corruption deck I've been playing with. The card by itself is weak but once you pair it with Mastery of Time, Archmage, and board control it becomes awesome.

I love relentless corruption as it is and it's huge card advantage even on the first cast because I'm stealing my opponent's cards.

I hope it doesn't get any stronger because then more people will start playing it :-p

Eierdotter
12-13-2013, 05:11 AM
I actually have a really really strong 3 color relentless corruption deck I've been playing with. The card by itself is weak but once you pair it with Mastery of Time, Archmage, and board control it becomes awesome.

I love relentless corruption as it is and it's huge card advantage even on the first cast because I'm stealing my opponent's cards.

I hope it doesn't get any stronger because then more people will start playing it :-p

how is drawing 1 card for 3 resources a huge advantage?
to him it feels like you milled 1 card.

and since the card changes the thresholds of the drawn card to Blood it favors mono blood decks. (for example you draw a fist of briggadon, it has 6 blood threshold now) of cours most cards you draw are playable immediately due to having only 1 or 2 threshold.

a very luck based and situational card

SomeoneRandom
12-13-2013, 05:51 AM
Yeah corruption ends up being a good amount of card advantage after cast 3 or more. However, the main issue of drawing off your opponents deck is super inconsistent. You no longer can count on your draw spells getting you to your Extinctions, Removal or game ending troops. You now are at the mercy of your opponent's deck drawing aggressive troops or dwarf combo pieces. Originally this inconsistency was offset by the fact that at cast 3 you drew 4 cards and any after that were a monstrous amount. However, now that it only increases by 1 it feels very very weak.

I think it honestly might need a small nerf to be 1 card + 2 per cast. That way at least cast 2 you are somewhat closer to the power of Oracle Song and after that you are definitely ahead.

Tinuvas
12-13-2013, 09:08 AM
...Relentless Corruption is by far the weakest when you consider the expense and the odds of getting cards you can actually use (heavily depends on the opponents deck and color). It can be fun if it works out, but it's pretty slow to set up and ramps slowly as well...


...I love relentless corruption as it is and it's huge card advantage even on the first cast because I'm stealing my opponent's cards.

I hope it doesn't get any stronger because then more people will start playing it :-p


how is drawing 1 card for 3 resources a huge advantage?
to him it feels like you milled 1 card...a very luck based and situational card

I created a monoblood relentless corruption deck as a gimmick. I mean, really, I agree with the statements of inconsistency etc. when dealing with your opponents deck, but using my opponents own deck to beat him over the head with sounded fun. So I started actually using it and wow, it's got some staying power. A LOT more than I expected. Time after time I'm pulling cards that just gimp their deck. I keep expecting the deck to show it's true colors and start losing badly, but I have yet to see it. Is it a tier 1 deck? I highly doubt it, but there's more there than meets the eye too I think.

KinsoBlade
12-13-2013, 10:04 AM
I think to balance escalation cards, is to limit them to 1 or 2 cards each. Since after use, it goes back into the owners deck and with its effect of adding more each time you use it.

A_e-n
12-13-2013, 12:01 PM
Escalation is a new (fun) mechanic. These cards are SUPPOSED to be strong cards.

CZE has already adjusted the power of Escalation by making it additive instead of multiplicative, drastically lowering the strength of this mechanic. The change made the current Alpha meta a better place overall, because it used to feel like you HAD TO PLAY Escalation no matter which shards you were using just because it was so strong.

I like where it is now. They aren't 'must-haves' in your deck anymore, but are still very good.

However this scenario...

T1: Howling Brave
T2: Crash of Beasts
T3: Crash of Beasts

...is brutal. But given it's in Wild shard, shouldn't Wild have situations where it just beats people up? RIP Fists.

Svenn
12-13-2013, 01:28 PM
Relentless Corruption is by far the weakest when you consider the expense and the odds of getting cards you can actually use (heavily depends on the opponents deck and color). It can be fun if it works out, but it's pretty slow to set up and ramps slowly as well.
Relentless Corruption is a bit of a risk because you don't know what your opponent is playing and what you might draw, but you are still drawing cards. What I think balances it out some is that it's actually 1 part card draw and 1 part milling (better than milling, technically). You are both getting new cards to use AND removing those cards from your opponent's potential pool. This is especially great against decks that rely heavily on specific cards like Fist or Volcannon. Steal those from your opponent and you've taken their win condition away from them.

So yeah, a bit of a gamble but it's actually a good card.

SomeoneRandom
12-13-2013, 02:15 PM
The problem is card draw is mostly used in control to smooth out draws, in general control decks run 4-8 draw spells and most other cards are less than 4 of's except for a few key things. The draw spells smooth it out so you have multiple choices for each scenario, but you need to be drawing off your OWN deck for that to happen. If half or more of your draw spells are giving you cards like Righteous Paladin when you really needed to draw a removal or extinction they aren't functioning properly in your deck. Also milling is close to 0 value until your opponent hits 0 cards which is never going to happen with Corruption, so I wouldn't really count that as an advantage.

Before the nerf the potential of 4, 8 or 16 cards off a single cast made it potentially usable in conjunction with other card draw, but now that you get a "fair" amount of cards it really just isn't worth the card slots. Oh well, I personally really had hoped instead of going to a geometric increase they just nerfed base values on the degenerate ones. I think the target should have been 2nd cast is slightly worse than comparable card and 3rd cast is definitely better. Meaning putting Eternal Youth at 3 life starting and Rage Fire at 1 damage starting would have left them balanced while perhaps making Rhinos 3/2 instead of 3/3 bringing Crash in line. Or if they brought corruption up to 1+2*times cast it might be playable.

DackFayden
12-13-2013, 03:37 PM
Relentless Corruption is a bit of a risk because you don't know what your opponent is playing and what you might draw, but you are still drawing cards. What I think balances it out some is that it's actually 1 part card draw and 1 part milling (better than milling, technically). You are both getting new cards to use AND removing those cards from your opponent's potential pool. This is especially great against decks that rely heavily on specific cards like Fist or Volcannon. Steal those from your opponent and you've taken their win condition away from them.

So yeah, a bit of a gamble but it's actually a good card.

So the problem with relentless corruption I see is setting up its amazing power. Its good when it goes of, but the problem is by the time its going off the game is already won cuz you have control. You could replace the copies of relentless corruption with 3/2bombs-1/2control spells and have a slightly more consistent deck.

Also the whole "removing those cards from your opponent's potential pool" is surprisingly not relevant. Its like saying "I milled those cards so you're not getting them". The problem there is a deck is random and those cards could've easily been on the bottom of the deck. So you can't really count that as a making a card better.

Although I will say playing an opponents card against them is oh so satisfying.

Gwaer
12-13-2013, 03:41 PM
It's not terrible even on its first cast, it's a cantrip for 3, that mills 1 card on its first cast, that's really not terrible. Many people are already playing mutate, which generally does nothing and cantrips for 2.