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View Full Version : Suggestion: Make Debuff Creature Death Go To The Stack



BenRGamer
12-13-2013, 07:28 PM
Something I noticed, when a creature dies, not to damage, but to having it's toughness reduced to 0 or below due to modifiers, they die automatically if they were in play, or are played like that.

Since we have quick action cards and other abilities specifically to revert these debuffs, why not make that death go to the stack so players with the ability to do something about it actually can?

Edit: Er, that should be troop. Someone fix the title, please?

Handsofevil
12-13-2013, 09:35 PM
+9001 yes please

Pipsqueakedy
12-13-2013, 11:26 PM
this sounds like a good idea. Increased interaction is never a bad thing

IndigoShade
12-13-2013, 11:34 PM
Maybe I'm just being daft here, but aren't you able to respond to whatever action is causing the troop to obtain 0 toughness already? If you're referring specifically to bringing something back from the brink of death with reversion than I disagree, once something has 0 toughness it should be dead.

As far as
this sounds like a good idea. Increased interaction is never a bad thing goes, I guess they had their reasons for going with the change to triggered abilities not using the stack in the first place. Likely because it slows the game down drastically when 99% of the time it's unnecessary.

Zomnivore
12-14-2013, 01:08 AM
@ IndigoShade you can't revert to remove a debuff before the debuff is applied. So if the debuff brings my dude to 0 I couldn't revert him, before the dude goes to the grave.

Jugan
12-14-2013, 01:09 AM
Because of how state-based-effects work. No thanks.

mudkip
12-14-2013, 09:15 AM
Can't you revert the card in your hand before you play it?

BenRGamer
12-14-2013, 09:23 AM
I can't say, I've never had that situation.

escapeRoute
12-14-2013, 09:36 AM
So... I cast a debuff... The debuff goes and applies... The creature is at 0 so its ALLREADY dead and THEN u wanto to be able to revert the dead status? I suppose we can have a card for that, called resurrection... But thats not really what the revert effect is though for

BenRGamer
12-14-2013, 10:16 AM
So... I cast a debuff... The debuff goes and applies... The creature is at 0 so its ALLREADY dead and THEN u wanto to be able to revert the dead status? I suppose we can have a card for that, called resurrection... But thats not really what the revert effect is though for

Not what I'm saying. Even if you do something like Call the Grave, or Uruunaz or Midnight Shepherd, you can't bring that card back, because it immediately dies--even if you have a way to revert it. The only reason it doesn't happen with Resurrection is because the buff. What I'm saying is give us the chance to fix it before it dies. Quick Actions are supposed to be quick, aren't they?

DackFayden
12-14-2013, 10:23 AM
Not what I'm saying. Even if you do something like Call the Grave, or Uruunaz or Midnight Shepherd, you can't bring that card back, because it immediately dies--even if you have a way to revert it. The only reason it doesn't happen with Resurrection is because the buff. What I'm saying is give us the chance to fix it before it dies. Quick Actions are supposed to be quick, aren't they?

Good point. If that card that gives -2/-2 to a troop in hand makes a creatures P/T-->X/0 there should be a way to counter that

escapeRoute
12-14-2013, 10:30 AM
Not what I'm saying. Even if you do something like Call the Grave, or Uruunaz or Midnight Shepherd, you can't bring that card back, because it immediately dies--even if you have a way to revert it. The only reason it doesn't happen with Resurrection is because the buff. What I'm saying is give us the chance to fix it before it dies. Quick Actions are supposed to be quick, aren't they?

but he allrady is dead cause the first debuff allready applied... is like u try to cure somebodys hearth diseas AFTER he dies and hope he will then come back to life

u cant take a a debuff once its applied and think the creature didnt die, because it allready did... u must answer with something that shield it from the debuff before it applies... make it immune.. buff it more than it would be debuffed...

u want to be able to use a card in a way that wasnt designed for... asking for a very impractical thing... the death of a creature in the stack or worse to make the death of creatures going to the stack only in certain situations

the card u want to use is balanced with another idea in mind... if u want that effect put some istant spellshield or istant buff in ur deck, that will do the trick

BenRGamer
12-14-2013, 10:33 AM
Wait, using a card that reverts debuffs to revert debuffs is not using it in the way it was intended to be used?

escapeRoute
12-14-2013, 10:45 AM
Wait, using a card that reverts debuffs to revert debuffs is not using it in the way it was intended to be used?

it has been intended to do that on alive creatures... to take away buffs from uber +9+9 creatures or to take away that annoying cant attack debuff... not to save someone from a grave where he allready is buried... maybe a grave that is being digged in that moment, like some sort of debuff that will kill the creature later in the turn/game, but not to save a creature who allready died of an hearthattack...

lets say it this way... its not a defibrillator, its a patch... for defibrillator we will have to need new cards.. they may give us one

its not like u dont have answers to the debuff anyway O.o

Lawlschool
12-14-2013, 10:48 AM
Not what I'm saying. Even if you do something like Call the Grave, or Uruunaz or Midnight Shepherd, you can't bring that card back, because it immediately dies--even if you have a way to revert it. The only reason it doesn't happen with Resurrection is because the buff. What I'm saying is give us the chance to fix it before it dies. Quick Actions are supposed to be quick, aren't they?

They're quick, but not that quick.

BenRGamer
12-14-2013, 10:50 AM
Why can't it be, though? Would it break the game?

There's no 'adding new cards that keep troops from dying after being debuffed,' because it happens automatically with no chance to play anything, it would have to be this.

escapeRoute
12-14-2013, 10:57 AM
Why can't it be, though? Would it break the game?

There's no 'adding new cards that keep troops from dying after being debuffed,' because it happens automatically with no chance to play anything, it would have to be this.

u can create cards that will bring back all the creatures that died in the past turn or things like that

they allready created stoneskin for that exact purpouse, and it cost ONE as a quick action... u want to have the benefits of a control deck with the low cost of an aggro deck without being forced to splash sapphire in ur colours...

BenRGamer
12-14-2013, 10:59 AM
u can create cards that will bring back all the creatures that died in the past turn or things like that

Except then it will immediately die with no chance to stop it because it was debuffed.

Like I said, there is no 'adding cards to help that.'

poizonous
12-14-2013, 11:17 AM
If they bring in this ability, which is quite honestly stupid, then you are ruining the playability of cards like Sorrow, Persecute, Zared Venom.... The point is if you can fix their debuffs b4 the creature dies there is no real reaon to debuff them in the 1st place. It is a really dumb idea to even consider.

Miyordon
12-14-2013, 11:22 AM
No, I feel like you are not understanding what the card are doing and in which order. The troop either debuffs, then dies, and then you resurrect it OR The debuff is cast and you interrupt or buff troop in response. You cannot respond to a zero health with a revert.

BenRGamer
12-14-2013, 11:27 AM
If they bring in this ability, which is quite honestly stupid, then you are ruining the playability of cards like Sorrow, Persecute, Zared Venom.... The point is if you can fix their debuffs b4 the creature dies there is no real reaon to debuff them in the 1st place. It is a really dumb idea to even consider.

That requires them to have the revert card in the first place, how many people actually have them in their decks, much less their hands at the time of the persecute or sorrow, and even if they used it, that means they can't use that same card to remove buffs to your troops, opportunity cost. How different is it from having the troop buffed, or the spell countered?


No, I feel like you are not understanding what the card are doing and in which order. The troop either debuffs, then dies, and then you resurrect it OR The debuff is cast and you interrupt or buff troop in response. You cannot respond to a zero health with a revert.

Why not, though? Is it so gamebreakingly powerful? In fact, with the troop debuffed, you literally can not resurrect it without Resurrection. I just talked about this.

poizonous
12-14-2013, 11:43 AM
The main problem is it requires adding a whole new Priority step which would honestly mess with the gameflow. Revert is not intended to save a troop from dying. The whole thread is pretty much trying to turn revert into an anti death card and I do not approve of it.

Lawlschool
12-14-2013, 11:56 AM
Why not, though? Is it so gamebreakingly powerful? In fact, with the troop debuffed, you literally can not resurrect it without Resurrection. I just talked about this.

I don't know if it's game breakingly powerful, but it kinda seems way too niche to be necessary. Like you've pointed out, it's only really useful in those few occasions where there's a permanent debuff that kills a troop, and you try to bring back the troop and want to revert it. That's so narrow that it doesn't seem necessary to add a whole extra layer to the stack just for those few occasions where you might want to pull it off.

You also have to wonder how it would be implemented. Is it only for when a troop dies to a debuff, or should every death trigger the stack and give you a chance to save it? The latter could have some gamebreaking possibilities (and I think it's why in MtG they removed damage from the stack), the former, again, is just too narrow to make it seem worthwhile IMO.

Plus, there's nothing really wrong with having a permanent debuff preventing a troop from being brought back. Like you've said, there are already ways to bring it back (e.g. Ressurection, that guy that lets you put a card on top of your deck and give it +2/+2), we don't need a mechanics change with a questionable outcome too allow for one very very narrow set of circumstances to work.

To sum up, it's not like it's a terrible suggestion or anything, it's just not a change that's necessary.

Handsofevil
12-14-2013, 12:39 PM
Revert debuff? No
Buff it in response, like Wild Growth? Yes

I feel that is unnecessary and falls under the "someone killed my troop and I don't like it!! Fix it!!" category. When a troop's toughness is 0, it dies. As poizonous said, I think it was him, that would add another priority step when people are already complaining the game is clunky and takes too long.

tl;dr - no

escapeRoute
12-14-2013, 12:56 PM
dont get me wrong, u should actually be able to revert creatures in ur hand or in the graveyard

GPrime
12-14-2013, 01:38 PM
Yeah, I'd say no as well. If a creature is ever 0 toughness it dies, period. That's the way it works in "the other game" and I believe that's the way it should work here. You can either prevent it from dying or bring it back to life (should, IMO, be able to revert a troop in a graveyard because of the "persistent effects" mechanic. I disagree about being able to target a card in someone's hand, though. The only way I can see it making sense is a "revert all troops in all zones" card. )

But once a creature has died (again, it's a state-based effect so this is whenever--and immediately--when it reaches 0 DEF) then it moves to the graveyard. Your only options are and must be preventative (I.e. Put something on the top of the chain that keeps the debuff from happening or from killing the troop). You can't revert something that hasn't happened yet as revert is reactionary rather than preventative.

The more exceptions you make to "the way things work" as a simple set of rules, the harder it is to predict what will happen in a certain instance. Let's be consistent instead of confusing.

Zomnivore
12-14-2013, 01:43 PM
I think revert should have some ability to counter debuffs, in the chain...somehow, but the way its worded now, you can't "UNDO" a debuff before its done.

There is no direct interaction with the debuff card.

GPrime
12-14-2013, 02:03 PM
^Thing is, it's not really necessary. We have cards that do that already. Revert has its place.

The all-purpose stop-anything is Counterspell.

Miyordon
12-14-2013, 02:13 PM
That requires them to have the revert card in the first place, how many people actually have them in their decks, much less their hands at the time of the persecute or sorrow, and even if they used it, that means they can't use that same card to remove buffs to your troops, opportunity cost. How different is it from having the troop buffed, or the spell countered?



Why not, though? Is it so gamebreakingly powerful? In fact, with the troop debuffed, you literally can not resurrect it without Resurrection. I just talked about this.

No, it is not game breaking powerful, but it is game breaking in the sense of rules being broken. You are just flat out wrong when you are talking about the way things are working/should work. You are wanting to interrupt an effect, after it has been resolved.

BenRGamer
12-14-2013, 04:25 PM
^Thing is, it's not really necessary. We have cards that do that already. Revert has its place.

The all-purpose stop-anything is Counterspell.

Isn't it, though? I mean, Persecute, Sorrow, Venomscorn, they're already pretty much just cheap murders, why not have it be something specific to that mechanic?

Miyordon
12-14-2013, 04:43 PM
Isn't it, though? I mean, Persecute, Sorrow, Venomscorn, they're already pretty much just cheap murders, why not have it be something specific to that mechanic?

Wrong again. They are not murders, they do something different. If they are used like murder, then you have to treat them like a murder spell, and counter it. If they are used To weaken a troop, then you can revert. You are asking for a counter to death that is only caused by lowering health but not by outright killing?

BenRGamer
12-14-2013, 05:01 PM
Wrong again. They are not murders, they do something different. If they are used like murder, then you have to treat them like a murder spell, and counter it. If they are used To weaken a troop, then you can revert. You are asking for a counter to death that is only caused by lowering health but not by outright killing?

Except you can't revert because they're dead and no longer in play.

So, yeah, pretty much. It's a lot harder to revive a troop killed that way, so why not make it harder to kill them that way?

poizonous
12-14-2013, 05:13 PM
Except you can't revert because they're dead and no longer in play.

So, yeah, pretty much. It's a lot harder to revive a troop killed that way, so why not make it harder to kill them that way?

You cant revive a troop with reversion. Stop trying to make Reversion into something it isnt meant to be. Debuffs are meant to kill troops, that is their purpose, why make it harder to do so when that is their purpose. Reversions purpose is to either A) Make your opponents buffs go away or B) Make your debuffs on troops that are still alive, eg. Inner Conflicted, go away

BenRGamer
12-14-2013, 05:19 PM
You cant revive a troop with reversion. Stop trying to make Reversion into something it isnt meant to be. Debuffs are meant to kill troops, that is their purpose, why make it harder to do so when that is their purpose. Reversions purpose is to either A) Make your opponents buffs go away or B) Make your debuffs on troops that are still alive, eg. Inner Conflicted, go away

Stop looking at it as revival, and look at it as reverting the debuff before they die.

Where did you get revival from?

poizonous
12-14-2013, 06:16 PM
A troop with 0 toughness is dead. Regardless whether it hit 0 health with a debuff or not. There is no in between phase where you can revert it back to whatever health it had prior.

Aleiur
12-14-2013, 06:19 PM
The Troop dies the instant it is reduced to zero which happens the moment the debuff stack resolves. As such, you can't revert it 'before' it dies.

GPrime
12-14-2013, 06:23 PM
look at it as reverting the debuff before they die.

As has been said, you can't revert something that hasn't happened yet, and you can't reverse weakening the troop once it's already died (which is the reality of the situation due to how the stack has to work and how "death" is defined).

What you're asking for is one of two things:

A) change the card text to "counter target action to troop, or, revert troop"

B) change the fundamental rules of hex, with great unintended consequences

Either option is clumsy and unnecessary. If you want a card that can do more than revert does, you need to reword it to fit the rules. Then you need to rebalance it. And then, why don't we have a cheaper, more specialized card that just reverts and doesn't counter?

The way it works now follows the games logic, and nothing about it needs to change.

TL;dr: you can't revert a debuff before it kills a troop because 0 DEF is instant death which will never and should never change.

Miyordon
12-14-2013, 06:28 PM
Stop looking at it as revival, and look at it as reverting the debuff before they die.

Where did you get revival from?

Look at what you typed right here. Really analyze it. If you cannot figure it out I will give you a hint, because this is what is wrong with your whole argument. You are trying/wanting to revert a debuff (so saying that it happened, so that your creature is dead) However, you then say you want to do it before they die? You cannot revert something has not happened. Once it happens, your troop is "murdered". You really want a quick action revive don't you?

Step 1. Opponent plays persecute, which will bring your troop to 0 or less health. You do not have a counter.
Step 2. Your troop dies. (You want this to be the only type of troop death on the stack? Because it is Debuffed there instead of killed?)
Step 3. He stays dead. Play counters if that is what you want.

BenRGamer
12-14-2013, 06:40 PM
I don't want there to be any 'dead' cards, more or less, not that they can't die and go to the graveyard, but that they can't possibly be played. Debuffing a troop to negative toughness, makes that happen--you may as well void them for all intents and purposes.

Changing fundamental rules? Don't give me that. How does this possibly change anything other than letting someone play revert after they've been debuffed. Everything else is something they could have done anyway so it doesn't matter.

poizonous
12-14-2013, 06:45 PM
I don't want there to be any 'dead' cards, more or less, not that they can't die and go to the graveyard, but that they can't possibly be played. Debuffing a troop to negative toughness, makes that happen--you may as well void them for all intents and purposes.

Changing fundamental rules? Don't give me that. How does this possibly change anything other than letting someone play revert after they've been debuffed. Everything else is something they could have done anyway so it doesn't matter.

You just dont listen so I am done explaining. Good luck complaining to the forums because everyone is trying to talk sense to you and you wont listen to it.

IndigoShade
12-14-2013, 07:00 PM
One thing I could agree with is being able to cast a spell to revert something that's in the graveyard. Hell, they could even make a card that's flexible and able to revert something in play or in the graveyard and maybe even return it to your hand. Either way, like has already been said numerous times, reverting something that hasn't happened yet makes no sense at all. Once the debuff happens, if it kills the guy, it's too late to revert the debuff while he's still alive.

BenRGamer
12-14-2013, 07:14 PM
That'd be just fine, at this point I'm mostly just debating because I like to debate. I truly don't see how this extra stack step would do anything except make Revert cards a little stronger and Debuff a little weaker, because, as I said, everything else, you could already do anyway.

So what's the fuss?

IndigoShade
12-14-2013, 07:28 PM
The fuss is about targeting something with an ability that relies on it still being alive when it isn't.

BenRGamer
12-14-2013, 08:04 PM
That's why I'm arguing to put it's death on the stack so you can act before it happens. That's... why they have the stack.

poizonous
12-14-2013, 08:09 PM
Ben you are missing the whole point still. There is no priority for a troop hitting 0 health, nor will there ever be priority for it. The card simply dies, case closed.

Adding a "Death" stack to the game throw off the balance of all the cards.IT slows down the game tremendously if everytime something dies a stack would activate. Revert has its purpose. It is not a "Save this card from death" mechanic, either accept it or dont, but dont constantly ask for something that is deathramental to the game

Lawlschool
12-14-2013, 08:29 PM
I don't want there to be any 'dead' cards, more or less, not that they can't die and go to the graveyard, but that they can't possibly be played. Debuffing a troop to negative toughness, makes that happen--you may as well void them for all intents and purposes.


Why is it a problem that a debuff kill acts as a soft Void? Why is it such a problem that there are un-revivable troops? Which isn't even true, there are at least 2 diamond cards that can "revive" debuffed troops. Why change the rules to fit one little rare scenario, when there are already cards that give essentially the same result?

Rendakor
12-14-2013, 09:26 PM
I don't think Reversion should be able to save creatures from dying, but I do think it should be able to target cards in graveyards; reverting their toughness to normal would not bring them back, but it would allow them to be hit with other cards which could potentially return them to your hand or play.

That aside, the reason creatures with negative toughness go to the graveyard and not the void is for cards like Carrion Blob and Corrupted Afterlife, which interact with creatures in graveyards without concern for their stats.

Handsofevil
12-14-2013, 09:49 PM
I agree that some type of reversion card should target the graveyard, or include that mechanic somehow. I don't think that Reversion, the current one, should be changed. It's is perfect where it is. As I've said with a few other threads, I like the mechanic, if it finds it's own place rather than forcing into what we already have.

Disordia
12-14-2013, 09:56 PM
That's why I'm arguing to put it's death on the stack so you can act before it happens. That's... why they have the stack.

Respond to the ability that's killing your troop. Done.

Sorrow too stronk.

Nekosluagh
12-17-2013, 12:01 PM
I agree that it shouldn't happen, but I think I understand what the op is talking about, but that is a big difference between this and the other game. When a creature gets buffed(or debuffed as in this case), assuming it is a perma-buff, (i.e. Gigantify) that change is permanent, whether the creature is in the player hand or graveyard because of some effect. Essentially, what someone is doing by debuffing a creature to death is voiding them (again, if they are using a perma-debuff), because there is no way that creature could ever be brought back from the grave since it is now a 0/0 creature in the graveyard.

I still think this is a perfectly acceptable way to get rid of things, and don't see any problem in making them unable to come back even after dead, but I just wanted to see if everyone reading the same thing in what the OP is saying that I am.

Svenn
12-17-2013, 12:14 PM
I don't think Reversion should be able to save creatures from dying, but I do think it should be able to target cards in graveyards; reverting their toughness to normal would not bring them back, but it would allow them to be hit with other cards which could potentially return them to your hand or play.

That aside, the reason creatures with negative toughness go to the graveyard and not the void is for cards like Carrion Blob and Corrupted Afterlife, which interact with creatures in graveyards without concern for their stats.

This. I'm fine with being able to Revert cards in your hand/graveyard so that you can bring back something that was permanently debuffed, but it definitely should not be able to stop a creature from dying in the first place.

You have a chance to react to the debuff already in many ways. You can counter the debuff, buff your troop, return your troop to your hand... but Reverting it to stop the incoming debuff just doesn't make sense.

BossHoss
12-17-2013, 08:25 PM
That's why I'm arguing to put it's death on the stack so you can act before it happens. That's... why they have the stack.

Death on the stack?

No thanks.

Have fun with 40 Battle Hoppers getting hit by Extinction and having to pass priority for an hour... all because you want Revert to be Hex`s version of MtG regenerate. How about wait until set X that introduces "regenerate" and play Revert the way it is meant to be played.

funktion
12-18-2013, 04:26 AM
Death on the stack?

No thanks.

Have fun with 40 Battle Hoppers getting hit by Extinction and having to pass priority for an hour... all because you want Revert to be Hex`s version of MtG regenerate. How about wait until set X that introduces "regenerate" and play Revert the way it is meant to be played.

This x1000

jaxsonbatemanhex
12-18-2013, 04:37 AM
Absolutely not necessary. As I'm sure others have mentioned, if the troop is already in play and hit by something like Persecute, you can respond to the Persecute cast. If the troop isn't in play yet but has been hit by something like Atrophy (and you somehow got it from the graveyard, but it's a x/0) - them's the breaks, and hell, if you're really keen on saving the troop a card that buffs all your troops defense (like Soul Armaments when its fixed) will do the trick.

Zomnivore
12-18-2013, 01:11 PM
I mostly want this for troops who are debuffed in your hand or you have some way to recurr them from the grave.

You can play a troop and its not yet in play because you have time to counter it, and then be able to revert the troop, but in this case its counting its stats before its in play to check whether or not its dead.

Which...while its not in play yet doesn't make sense.

It should die once it enters play not before it.

In regards to the deaths in the stack thing being tedious, come on you guys are making a design decision based on ui problems that have solutions? Honestly?

Gwaer
12-18-2013, 01:36 PM
Opening up revert to be able to target hands and graveyards may be cool down the line in a more powerful version of the card. Over the lifetime of the game I'm certain we'll see many permutations.

SomeoneRandom
12-18-2013, 03:00 PM
I mostly want this for troops who are debuffed in your hand or you have some way to recurr them from the grave.

You can play a troop and its not yet in play because you have time to counter it, and then be able to revert the troop, but in this case its counting its stats before its in play to check whether or not its dead.

Which...while its not in play yet doesn't make sense.

It should die once it enters play not before it.

In regards to the deaths in the stack thing being tedious, come on you guys are making a design decision based on ui problems that have solutions? Honestly?

It is checking the troops stats once they hit the board it is just dying due to state based effects before you ever get a chance to do anything. In general it is best for base effects to be basic, it leaves more design space to break those rules down the road. By leaving revert how it is it opens possibilities of making new cards with effects like targeting GY or Hand. On the note of targeting things in your hand the fact that you CANT revert something in your hand is the only reason Shadowgrove Witch is even playable, that type of effect is very costly currently because of the fact that it is hitting things outside of play.

In regards to deaths on the stack, I have never seen a reason that I would really want that to be in any game ever and I really don't see a reason now. This random edge case where you have a quick reversion for an opponents debuff kill spell is not the intended use, nor a use case I think I even want in the game.

Jinxies
12-18-2013, 03:14 PM
I'd like to see revert being able to target cards in all zones :3

Handsofevil
12-18-2013, 03:19 PM
I'm with Gwaer on this one.

Zomnivore
12-18-2013, 03:43 PM
I don't want to revert cards in hand, I want to do it on the play.

in the play-stack. atm they just auto die.

I don't know if thats not 'reading' properly as a statement i'm trying to make or if I'm misreading the response to what I said.

I want it to work similar to counterspell but for your own troop after or while its being debuffed.

It may make the witch weaker, but the witch is a common. It also allows more counter play to that zombie-deck-debuffer in blood, in white, and in a blood deck with the bolt-paw-wizard-dude.

Maybe revert is too strong as it is right now, because of it also countering transform, and how many different sorts of debuffs exist...but w/e I'm not a designer I don't know the projected interactions or have enough know-how to even understand what would be a reasonable expectation for card-balance-long-term-vision-doohickerey.

However, I do know that it 'feels' wrong to see a creature being debuffed in hand, to play it, and try to revert it on the play...and not being able to.

Handsofevil
12-18-2013, 03:57 PM
That's because you are looking at the stack wrong and how Reversion works in it's current printing. Creatures dying do not hit the stack. And if you're asking them to, this thread has discussed why it's a bad idea very thoroughly. If you saying that they should be able to be reverted as you play them, before a troop hits the field, it is no considered in play and therefor cannot be targeted with things such as reversion, stoneskin, and similar. What you're asking for is changing not only the card, but also how the stack system and HEX in general works.

Zomnivore
12-18-2013, 07:32 PM
That's because you are looking at the stack wrong and how Reversion works in it's current printing. Creatures dying do not hit the stack. And if you're asking them to, this thread has discussed why it's a bad idea very thoroughly. If you saying that they should be able to be reverted as you play them, before a troop hits the field, it is no considered in play and therefor cannot be targeted with things such as reversion, stoneskin, and similar. What you're asking for is changing not only the card, but also how the stack system and HEX in general works.

I think the more simple explanation would be to say, well you can murder a card in the stack murdering it and putting it to /0 are effectively the same thing.

Thats imo. a better way to phrase it as an answer.

Personally I'd still like to 'counter' debuffs in the stack, but ya like I said its more of a 'feel' problem more than anything.

They're still creating a deviation to the card from its original state, undoing that before its been done sounds in line with the concept of 'revert' it sounds like 'undo' which sounds like it should feel like 'counter'.

Handsofevil
12-18-2013, 08:10 PM
You cannot murder a card while it is still on the stack...

You can counter the debuff with a buff, like Wild Aura.

How can you undo something that hasn't been done? You can't. Hence why you use something like Countermagic instead.

SomeoneRandom
12-18-2013, 10:44 PM
I think the more simple explanation would be to say, well you can murder a card in the stack murdering it and putting it to /0 are effectively the same thing.

Thats imo. a better way to phrase it as an answer.

Personally I'd still like to 'counter' debuffs in the stack, but ya like I said its more of a 'feel' problem more than anything.

They're still creating a deviation to the card from its original state, undoing that before its been done sounds in line with the concept of 'revert' it sounds like 'undo' which sounds like it should feel like 'counter'.

I don't really see how you think it is a "fell" problem. To me your solution has a much bigger "feel" problem. The stack is a First in - First out system and in between anything resolving from the stack or any passing of priority state based effects are checked, this includes things like making sure nobody is dead, checking if troops should be dead, etc.

What currently happens is someone casts persecute on a troop you control you have two possibilities either you cast it while it is still on the stack and your revert happens first, reverting nothing. Or you attempt to cast it afterward, but after a card resolves state based effects are checked, your troop realizes it is dead and dies before you have priority to cast ANYTHING. It is like Wiley Coyote running off a cliff and continuing to run until he looks down, everything is peachy until state based effects are checked and your troop dies.

The way you want it to work is that your troop realizes its dead shrugs it off and says no big deal, double checks with you that you are alright letting him die and then falls over. It makes no sense and reversion shouldn't be able to counter anything...

Zomnivore
12-19-2013, 12:13 AM
If you think I have a tough time understanding the mechanical aspect of the game (you're right) why would you then also bog me down with a half/half answer of explanation and then whimsical jokey thing?

When you play a murder, you can counter magic it, its done and the thing isn't dead. If you play a debuff...even if that debuff would kill it, that the anti-debuff card would counter that implicitly.

Doesn't that sound reasonable from a oh...ya that would seem like it would do that kind of thing?

Why would stack order matter if the anti-debuff thing or anti-card-change-state thing was after it?

See I don't think stack priority should matter unless you've already used up your one re-buff on something and then it got debuffed again.

From a feel perspective at least.

From a balance perspective I see why it would be too strong.

Also...down playing 'feel' problems is annoying and misguided.

SomeoneRandom
12-19-2013, 08:51 AM
If you think I have a tough time understanding the mechanical aspect of the game (you're right) why would you then also bog me down with a half/half answer of explanation and then whimsical jokey thing?

When you play a murder, you can counter magic it, its done and the thing isn't dead. If you play a debuff...even if that debuff would kill it, that the anti-debuff card would counter that implicitly.

Doesn't that sound reasonable from a oh...ya that would seem like it would do that kind of thing?

Why would stack order matter if the anti-debuff thing or anti-card-change-state thing was after it?

See I don't think stack priority should matter unless you've already used up your one re-buff on something and then it got debuffed again.

From a feel perspective at least.

From a balance perspective I see why it would be too strong.

Also...down playing 'feel' problems is annoying and misguided.

I tried to put it in more simple terms and reference something I think most people would know in cartoons. Your situation has a "feel" problem to me because in order for you to have a window to even CAST reversion your troop has to first be dead... it has to be a 0/0 and know that in order for you to revert ANYTHING. Otherwise what are you reverting...

Thats where this line came from: The way you want it to work is that your troop realizes its dead shrugs it off and says no big deal, double checks with you that you are alright letting him die and then falls over.

In order for there to be a window for reversion to work it needs to check with you that it is okay to die, that reeks a "feel" and flavor problem all over. Not to mention the problem of passing priority each time.

If you want to use reversion while the debuff is still on the stack, then you are looking for a completely different effect and this discussion is moot. Revert affects a troop, targeting a debuff (a spell) doesn't make any flavor sense at all(What are you reverting?), and we already have that effect in countermagic. You have to either protect your troop before things have happened, or let things run their course and pick up the pieces. Hex doesn't have defibrillators (the best analogy I could think of for what you want).

DackFayden
12-19-2013, 12:05 PM
Question: Can a card like revert that says "Revert target card" target a card in your hand?

Aradon
12-19-2013, 12:31 PM
I was pretty against messing with the way state based effects work for placing cards with 0 toughness into the graveyard for a few reasons, but mechanically, I don't think it'd be impossible. You'd have to make a state-based triggered ability instead, and a few odd interactions might pop up (unsummoning a 0-toughness minion) but I was always in favor of combat damage on the stack in MtG, and this isn't any worse.

And it would be possible to make a card that allows you to replay 0-toughness creatures within the current system, too: "If a troop would enter the battlefield, instead revert it and then it enters the battlefield." Could be a reasonable constant or artifact, though I'd expect it to be cheap and cantrip, since its other applications are fairly limited.

Whether the game 'should' give you the ability to respond to some or all state based actions is a design decision. I'm for consistency, and not being able to respond to any state-based actions, or else you'd be able to react to creatures dying, but not the automatic card draw at the start of the turn, because reasons.

And Dack, no. You can't target specific cards in hand. I think this rule applies to any hidden cards in zones: you similarly can't target a card in a library. Currently the wording is ambiguous, though. The graveyard is a public zone with identifiable cards, and I suspect that your card can NOT target a card in a graveyard, nor on the stack, even though those are technically legal targets. Most instances of cards using the word 'card' have ambiguous wording that needs to be clarified before official release. When they refer solely to cards on the battlefield, they need to say 'permanent' rather than card, because cards are cards in all zones, but only become permanents when they enter play. Unless CZE's comprehensive rules declare that a card is only a card when in play, and is a 'nothing' or 'something else' when in other zones. Basically, as it's implemented something needs to give to be consistent and logical.

Handsofevil
12-19-2013, 08:57 PM
Question: Can a card like revert that says "Revert target card" target a card in your hand?

Currently, no. It has been brought up through this thread to have that and more options to revert cards in the graveyard. Only one I can think of is the one that reverts three troops then transforms them into zombies.

@Aradon: I agree those would be interesting ideas to play around with for future cards. But that's the key, future cards. I agree 100% that it's al all or nothing for state-based actions, and I'm on the side of not being able to respond. As we currently cannot target stuff in a library, but that would be a really cool idea. "Target troop in your library, and all other instances of that card, get +2/+2 and reduce their cost by 1." The opponent wouldn't know what you chose and could allow for some cool plays I think. That's just an example, I put no effort into any balance thinking.

Gwaer
12-19-2013, 10:22 PM
The do need to change the wording on reversion to revert target card in play. Revert target card should be able to target anything shouldn't it?

SomeoneRandom
12-20-2013, 08:47 AM
The do need to change the wording on reversion to revert target card in play. Revert target card should be able to target anything shouldn't it?

I feel like instead of the wording being "target card means any zone" I think it just means it can revert any card type. A constant, artifact, or troop. As a general rule you shouldn't be targetting things in other zones unless a card or mechanic specifies it. Again this will all be known for sure once we get comprehensive rules xD

escapeRoute
12-20-2013, 08:50 AM
I feel like instead of the wording being "target card means any zone" I think it just means it can revert any card type. A constant, artifact, or troop. As a general rule you shouldn't be targetting things in other zones unless a card or mechanic specifies it. Again this will all be known for sure once we get comprehensive rules xD

well, on this i feel the need to back him.. it should really describe better the effect of the card

SomeoneRandom
12-20-2013, 09:16 AM
well, on this i feel the need to back him.. it should really describe better the effect of the card

Yeah, perhaps. I just think you would need to put it on everything with similar wording. I think it would just be better to have a sweeping rule to save card text. However, I agree and I am all for being as clear as possible. There is nothing worse than planning to play a card one way and then find out the rules don't allow it.

Errantsquire
02-10-2014, 04:32 AM
In order to make this work revert would have to create some sort of "bubble" on the affected troop as you would have to respond to persecute. This would be similar to the way damage prevention and regeneration works in MTG. I don't see this happening however.

A lot of people are talking about State Based Effects without completely explaining what they are. Basically state based effects exist outside of the stack and do not use it at all. Additionally if a condition exists where a State Based Effect would take place it has priority.

Some Examples are

Your life total becomes zero - you lose the game
A troops toughness is brought to zero - it's placed in its owners graveyard


Something I noticed, when a creature dies, not to damage, but to having it's toughness reduced to 0 or below due to modifiers, they die automatically if they were in play, or are played like that.

Since we have quick action cards and other abilities specifically to revert these debuffs, why not make that death go to the stack so players with the ability to do something about it actually can?

Edit: Er, that should be troop. Someone fix the title, please?