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koisoujiro
12-17-2013, 10:38 PM
I get shardscrewed or shardflooded sometimes, cant help but blame the randomized shuffle and draw. To alleviate blaming the RAND, can a shuffle button be implemented to psychologically baby me into thinking its not the program's fault? maybe the current deck randomized can be shuffled based on the type you choose:
Riffle - split the deck in two each card on top of each half is then placed on top of one another one by one.
Cut - a chunk of cards in the middle is placed on top of the deck.
Pile - This I do in MTG Physical, have 8 piles and distribute one card to each pile one at a time.
They can already have this in place, but I need to visually see the cards being shuffled, again psychologically reinforcing me to believe that my deck is totally random. Visually seeing the cards shuffle and hearing it shuffle...

Not too important but again, if people feel more at ease about the computer giving them crappy hands, this can at least make me believe that is not entirely its fault.

Shaqattaq
12-17-2013, 10:42 PM
It's certainly something we're discussing, along with the costs of doing so in terms of time and system resources.

mudkip
12-17-2013, 11:02 PM
It's certainly something we're discussing, along with the costs of doing so in terms of time and system resources.

Just make a placebo button.

Gwaer
12-17-2013, 11:04 PM
Haha, just add animations, but don't change anything. I like how you think mudkip.

koisoujiro
12-17-2013, 11:35 PM
A placebo shuffle button does sound good, but I really would like to have interaction with the shuffle at least a "Cut" or "Ripple" should be fine. Again to minimize placing the blame on the program when things go wrong, and enforce the issue that you might have constructed your deck poorly.

Gwaer
12-17-2013, 11:37 PM
Have a moving bar sliding up and down your deck and a cut button, hit the button and it cuts the deck there and deals

Handsofevil
12-17-2013, 11:58 PM
I love how there was another post recently about the RNG that was locked and shut down as soon as we started grouping together to test the it. Yet this one gets a positive response by CZE? There are noticeable clumping issues. I did notice the issue a lot more when Alpha first hit, so I feel it's gotten better, but I still feel like something is off.

hex_colin
12-18-2013, 01:11 AM
I did notice the issue a lot more when Alpha first hit, so I feel it's gotten better, but I still feel like something is off.

Your perception may have been that there was a problem. However, lots of people posted actual data that disproved that hypothesis, and CZE confirmed that they didn't see any problems with their testing. Unfortunately, no amount of UI bling or cool animations will change the fact that all that really matters is data (and lots of it - 10's of thousands of trials).

Handsofevil
12-18-2013, 01:13 AM
I'd love to see that data. I tried to find it, but couldn't. If someone who knows where it is, I'd love to see it. Until then, I'll stick with my feeling compared to MTG since it's very similar.

hex_colin
12-18-2013, 01:15 AM
I'd love to see that data. I tried to find it, but couldn't. If someone who knows where it is, I'd love to see it. Until then, I'll stick with my feeling compared to MTG since it's very similar.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=29508

Wait, where's Shadowelf? ;)

lite
12-18-2013, 01:33 AM
Wait, where's Shadowelf? ;)

Thats a very good question !

Handsofevil
12-18-2013, 02:37 AM
First off, thanks for the link. Though I didn't read all 41 pages >.< I did notice something in the 6 I read that was never readressed. Clumping. While I will not argue the ridiculous draws I got, I will argue the clumping I have gotten. Just today I got all 4 copies of a card within a 10 cards. Not I'm too tired to do the actual math, but I know that is very small. Many guildies and followers of my stream have noticed the same thing in their games and in mine. I'd love to get a legit group of people to get together and actually test these things. Not just a big forum of "post your data here" but a group that wants to look at the actual application of it client-side. And moreover, compare it to a physical game. You can do probability all you want, but we know practicality never lines up exactly with probability. And I know I have not gotten the amount of clumping MTG as I do in HEX right now. I don't have enough information of their RNG or deck management methods to speculate at all on why this happens, I can only say how it feels and offer to do something to help figure it out.

hex_colin
12-18-2013, 02:55 AM
First off, thanks for the link. Though I didn't read all 41 pages >.< I did notice something in the 6 I read that was never readressed. Clumping. While I will not argue the ridiculous draws I got, I will argue the clumping I have gotten. Just today I got all 4 copies of a card within a 10 cards. Not I'm too tired to do the actual math, but I know that is very small. Many guildies and followers of my stream have noticed the same thing in their games and in mine. I'd love to get a legit group of people to get together and actually test these things. Not just a big forum of "post your data here" but a group that wants to look at the actual application of it client-side. And moreover, compare it to a physical game. You can do probability all you want, but we know practicality never lines up exactly with probability. And I know I have not gotten the amount of clumping MTG as I do in HEX right now. I don't have enough information of their RNG or deck management methods to speculate at all on why this happens, I can only say how it feels and offer to do something to help figure it out.

It was addressed actually (but I don't have time to find the posts). Basically, if you have the expected distribution, you can rule out clumping too.

ossuary
12-18-2013, 05:18 AM
There was a whole discussion on it in that giant thread somewhere... 15 or 20 pages in I think. The conclusion is that it would be mathematically impossible to have a proper random distribution of cards AND have systemic clumping. If the cards are being clumped together more than random sorting dictates, it would skew the results of the random distribution testing as well (because the land would also be clumped). The fact that the resource distribution fits within expected parameters precludes the possibility of bad grouping. There is no mathematical or statistical basis for the claim. It is merely a perceptual fallacy.

mudkip
12-18-2013, 07:00 AM
Clumping.

There's something almost beautiful about this. A circle of paranoia, feeding ignorance, feeding other's paranoia...

wasichu
12-18-2013, 07:01 AM
I like how in Commander how each person can put cards back in there deck if they wish and draw same number once from the top then shuffle.

koisoujiro
12-18-2013, 08:39 AM
again suggested that the program tags each card then shuffle them like you do physical MTG as a final shuffle after the predefined randomizer.

SomeoneRandom
12-18-2013, 09:48 AM
There are really only two drawbacks I see with doing something like this, and they are big enough that I personally don't want this implemented. The first is the problem of resources, I would personally much rather see a new animation for a card or another action before wasting time on shuffle animations that don't actually do anything. The other is time, you want some sort of babying to show you pile shuffling and cutting and whatever other methods you want, meanwhile I am sitting there waiting for you to finish your "ritual" getting bored and wanting to play something else. This isn't a game IRL where I can chat with someone or chat with you while you do this, or plotting my next play after some tutor etc. I think it would be horrible, if they want to add a short 1-2 second animation of a deck being cut a few times for flair, okay. However, I really don't want any user input or choice in the matter, because it is another annoyance in a long list of annoyances against a slow opponent.

mudkip
12-18-2013, 10:55 AM
How are different methods of achieving the same amount of "randomness" going to change anything? How can you prove, without looking at the cards, that there's a difference between a new more complicated mechanical shuffling method and the current random generator? Should there be an option where you get to view your deck and demand a reshuffle if it doesn't meet your standard of random?

You need to understand that until you observe the cards and the wave-form of your idea of "random" collapses, this effort is all for naught.

That said, I do seriously like the idea of a bombastic and cynical animation of the deck being twirled around and shuffled, every time it's actually shuffled. With the current animations (especially when you mulligan) it does feel weird like the dealer is patronising you. I think this would alleviate 99% of people's concerns.

noragar
12-18-2013, 11:24 AM
No matter how many bells and whistles are added to the shuffling animation or how many additional steps are taken in the algorithm, the distribution of card draws is going to be exactly the same (random distribution = random distribution + an extra riffle = random distribution + riffle + cut, etc.)

So the same "patterns" people are seeing now, those people will still be seeing afterwards. So as soon as they draw "bad" hands in back-to-back games, they'll be right back here wanting a "New and Improved Super Duper Random Shuffle Animator Button" that's better than the last one.

Lawlschool
12-18-2013, 12:51 PM
That said, I do seriously like the idea of a bombastic and cynical animation of the deck being twirled around and shuffled, every time it's actually shuffled. With the current animations (especially when you mulligan) it does feel weird like the dealer is patronising you. I think this would alleviate 99% of people's concerns.

I definitely think some sort of pre-draw shuffle animation would be awesome. But then you'd get people who are upset with dealing with the extra time it takes to watch the animation (some already aren't a fan of the coin flip animation). It's an unfortunate fact that you can't please everyone all the time.

koisoujiro
12-18-2013, 02:06 PM
the game is digital played on a virtual space with the feeling of physical cards (though no cards has 2 backs)... but a quick shuffle animation wont hurt, is it really not more fulfilling to hear and see the deck actually shuffle than to see it stacked there motionless... and regarding shuffles, I only wanted one at the initial start, after the shuffle the game actually does, and a programmed riffle shuffle after. if games last 10-15 minutes then a 3-5 second shuffle animation should not hurt anyone... psychologically its just more concrete.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qaMFiMZOug

Pokemon:
This video has a shuffle animation with sound... also a very quick coin flip... does that not satisfy you... :D

Jinxies
12-18-2013, 03:12 PM
+1 For the placebo button!

This is the best idea I've seen on these forums in ages!

Placebo button for president!

ossuary
12-18-2013, 03:27 PM
Placebo needs to get in line behind Carbon Rod. Let's hear it for Carbon Rod!

Zomnivore
12-18-2013, 03:28 PM
Actually giving us a button that allows us to shuffle cards in a variety of different random ways, could actually cut some of the problems of the system only having limited options or some algorithm stopping in a similar way and doing odd stuff...and stuff....

Might at least remove some of the 'samey' feel the shuffler has atm.

mudkip
12-18-2013, 04:07 PM
Might at least remove some of the 'samey' feel the shuffler has atm.

<Fry pic>not sure if srs...</Fry pic>

It's a bad thing that the shuffler is consistently random?

Zomnivore
12-18-2013, 07:45 PM
<Fry pic>not sure if srs...</Fry pic>

It's a bad thing that the shuffler is consistently random?

If there's a human element like in normal shuffling plus a computer element to make sure you're not screwing up like in competitive settings, and you can do that through ui solutions...I don't see a down side to saving people from the disconcerting 'shuffled for you' feeling of doom you get when you get 3 of a kind in a ton of hands, or always two joules. Or a seemingly disconcerting amount of similarity to how things are shuffled...because you do it instantly, and can notice that.

Good design is making you feel comfortable with how these things actually work...right?

mudkip
12-18-2013, 08:37 PM
Good design is making you feel comfortable with how these things actually work...right?

Good design is working as intended.

Mahes
12-22-2013, 02:10 PM
At the very least the Mulligan needs to stop holding a few cards and then dealing me the rest. That is such an irritating thing to watch when part of your hand remains as the computer dishes out the rest of the 6 cards.

Pseudoradius
12-23-2013, 04:52 AM
I think a shuffle animation is needed when a card effect causes the deck to be shuffled, simply to show that the effect actually happened.

VeScorp
12-23-2013, 05:36 AM
It's certainly something we're discussing, along with the costs of doing so in terms of time and system resources.

What about making it into the animation instead of the shardsphere, while waiting for the matchmaking game?

A;ways shuffling my deck on big tournaments when sitting in front of my opponent without the permission to start the game yet :)

Mahes
12-23-2013, 09:05 AM
While they are at it, add a feature that allows a player to cut the opponents deck before starting. Serves no real purpose, but it adds to the ambience of the game.

Handsofevil
12-25-2013, 09:18 PM
While we're at it, let us do magic tricks with the cards... There does come a point where 'ambience' causes games to slow down and gets clunky. Mashes, this is not targetted at you, you're just the most recent poster that I can reference.