PDA

View Full Version : Can i raise my kickstarter pledge yet?



Bells
12-17-2013, 10:42 PM
After playing the Alpha and seeing where Hex is going i would like to raise my pledge from Captain level, is that still viable? how do i go about doing that?

Gwaer
12-17-2013, 11:01 PM
I'm afraid that's not really an option. But I'm glad to hear about your increased confidence!

mudkip
12-17-2013, 11:04 PM
It's been stated that that won't be an option.

The point of the Kickstarter is to invest in the creator's vision - the added value of the backer rewards is to balance the risk. Waiting until there's a finished product, kinda defeats the purpose since there's no risk.

big_aug
12-17-2013, 11:13 PM
There is no finished product yet. As a thanks for testing their game and donating money, they should certainly consider letting people increase contributions. It's too bad elitism and cronyism will probably keep them from ever allowing people to do so.

Why would the devs stop people from donating money to their game? The only valid reason is some type of systematic issue with increasing backer tier post kickstarter. Why would other backers not want more players contributing? The only answer is they want to feel special.

Gwaer
12-17-2013, 11:38 PM
Primarily? Because they lose money... The deals early on were very good, every one of those you sell is that much less you will take in later.

Secondarily, they made promises during the kickstarter that most of the rewards would never be available again, if they go back on that it's upwards of 20,000 people they just lied to.

Handsofevil
12-17-2013, 11:55 PM
It's too bad elitism and cronyism will probably keep them from ever allowing people to do so.

It's too bad that you're an a$$ who assumes CZE (and almost every kickstarter project I have every backed, and that's quite a lot) are in this to make themselves feel special. I recently priced out both a Pro Player Tier and a Grand King Tier. The PPT valued out at an estimated $1200 based on preliminary interest in exclusives on top of published prices for packs/decks. The GKT came out over $2k. And that's only taking into account 1 year of the free drafts that you get. It's not 'elitism and cronyism' that's stopping them, it's basic business sense. As it is the $50 Slacker Backer gets you over $120 worth of stuff.

Ever heard of an exclusive?
restricted or limited to the person, group, or area concerned. That would be those who donated DURING the Kickstarter.

big_aug
12-18-2013, 12:07 AM
It's too bad that you're an a$$ who assumes CZE (and almost every kickstarter project I have every backed, and that's quite a lot) are in this to make themselves feel special. I recently priced out both a Pro Player Tier and a Grand King Tier. The PPT valued out at an estimated $1200 based on preliminary interest in exclusives on top of published prices for packs/decks. The GKT came out over $2k. And that's only taking into account 1 year of the free drafts that you get. It's not 'elitism and cronyism' that's stopping them, it's basic business sense. As it is the $50 Slacker Backer gets you over $120 worth of stuff.

Ever heard of an exclusive? That would be those who donated DURING the Kickstarter.


Basic business sense would probably tell you that people who are willing to donate these substantial sums of money are the types of people more likely to actually purchase stuff later regardless of what they get in their package. We're talking about a small group of people. Less than 18,000 people backed on Kickstarter. If they are really relying on that small amount of people to keep this game going in the long run, then they've probably got another thing coming. If that really is the case, then they should absolutely be getting as much money up front as possible. People who contribute less are less invested in the project, obviously. They are more likely to move on, forget about it completely, and never spend another dime on it. People who donate $100-200+ are probably considerably less likely to do so. I don't have numbers to back that up, but I'd certainly put money on it as just common sense. If that's not true, then they better take the money anyway because those individuals might not spend anywhere near that in the future.

I've heard of exclusive. And I can understand your desire to maintain your exclusivity. It certainly isn't basic business sense.

big_aug
12-18-2013, 12:16 AM
Primarily? Because they lose money... The deals early on were very good, every one of those you sell is that much less you will take in later.

Secondarily, they made promises during the kickstarter that most of the rewards would never be available again, if they go back on that it's upwards of 20,000 people they just lied to.

They aren't losing anything. They're probably losing more by not allowing people to increase their contributions.

And you've both demonstrated exactly what I've said. You want your exclusive, never available again rewards. In reality, you should be encouraging the developers to take more money so they may use those funds to create a better game in a more timely manner. I suppose that's not on most people's priority list despite the way they pretend to care so much about "developer vision" and "business sense."

Gwaer
12-18-2013, 12:31 AM
I want CZE to not lose face. If they go back on their promises now, who's to say they won't go back on future ones as well. It's a matter of principles and they're a very principled company, that's why they got my money in the first place. From a business standpoint they aren't relying on those of us who have already donated, but trying to make an amazing game that appeals to the masses who will pay for their packs and starter decks. Another few thousand now that stops them from making many thousand later just doesn't make sense. They have enough money to get the game launched, it would be silly to keep giving deep discounts. If something happens and they start running short and need a cash infusion, then by all means they should start up some new options. I know most of us would throw down a few hundred more bucks.

Ertzi
12-18-2013, 12:53 AM
I have accepted that I will never be able to increase my Slacker Backer tier to a more expensive, exclusive one. However, I am tired and annoyed to see posts that try to make the early KS backers appear somehow better than the backers that came in later. Personally it annoys me because I would have pledged more than most people in these forums, but now I have no chance to do that, and some members like to throw that at our faces if we ever even suggest that it would be awesome to allow us to pay for the higher rewards later. "You should have backed earlier, boo hoo, etc..."

We are still in Alpha, and I would love to be able to give more money to HEX, but many seem to have a huge problem with that. After the Beta launch even I would support closing the KS tiers forever. That is enough time. I feel the original KS campaign was not, because I missed the boat, and I certainly follow the world of gaming pretty closely.

Some people might have had situations that prevented them backing when the main KS campaign was going on. I personally was just moving into a new city and starting a new job after a long relationship broke up, so I simply did not have time to follow gaming news for a while. Of course the KS campaign happened at exactly this moment. This is my dream game, so I would have sank a ton of money into it without blinking.

So please understand that many might want to increase the backing tiers, including myself, and be more understanding towards these people. You are no better than us Slacker Backers just because you managed to get on the gravy train a bit earlier. You were just lucky enough to know about this game in time. I respect every one of you who pledged a lot of money to HEX. Please extend the same courtesy to every Slacker Backer, as you do not know everyone's particular situation. Many people are only now finding this game and would happily dish out for the higher tiers. It is a bit sad that this is not allowed, but like I said, I have accepted that. No need to flaunt your higher tier status though.

hex_colin
12-18-2013, 01:05 AM
I personally don't really care who gets access to what with respect to KS exclusives, but I think it's really important for CZE to not go back on their word.

That doesn't discount the possibility of drumming up a second round of funding though with some new exclusive cards and maybe a prepay discount on decks and booster packs, a "Pro Slacker Backer" if you will (and maybe an add-on for KS backers to just get the latest cards). The problem is that they already have an insane amount of work to do, so adding more probably isn't the best idea.

And, to dispel the myth again, more money does not equal faster software development (maybe incrementally, but not linearly).

Handsofevil
12-18-2013, 01:10 AM
Yes, I want my exclusivity. Lets look at this just like Black Friday. It's a limited time option to save quite a bit of money for the consumers. There's a reason they only offer it one day as opposed to all of December. As it is, they are looking to end Slacker Backer soon.

Your argument is they'd earn a few more hundred bucks now, while it's Alpha, on a few people at around a 50% discount, possibly upwards of 75% off. Instead they can keep some stuff exclusive, because I'm betting most of those people, who would upgrade their pledge, would pay the same amount once the game hits over the first few months.

Going back to we want our exclusive so we're telling others they can't upgrade. Think of it from CZE's standpoint. Exclusive items are proven to be worth more, like a '74 Mustang, and therefore will sell for more on the AH. I'm willing to bet that quite a few people will put money into the game to buy those exclusive on the AH right after release. This trading will go on and on where more people have to invest in the game to buy the exclusives from those who picked it up early. While I don't have the math to show which would end up making them more, I'd say it would at least break even if not be more profitable.

I understand why you want to increase your pledge, but try to look at it from someone else's perspective. Form both the higher tiers and from CZE's. Which will ultimately bring them more money, and which will breed more anticipation for the game? Allowing months and months of purchasing exclusive content, or giving a limited time for most exclusives and let the anticipation build?

To draw comparisons to another game, lets look at LoL. There are tons of old skins that will never be released again. Silver Kayle was only obtainable if you bought the physical copy in a store. I'd like it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to complain to Riot asking for it.

This post started as a fine question to ask, and a fair response. Then it devolved into hatred towards each side. It's obvious those at lower tiers want the exclusives, so why wouldn't higher tiers want to keep them as exclusives? I know I'd be much less interested in some of the AA cards if it was no longer AA but standard.

If you read nothing else, read this.
Now after saying all this, I will say they have good options other than just "re-opening" Kickstarter levels. They could create new pledge levels that are still a good deal and beneficial for those who can give that much, without taking away from those who pledged earlier. I feel it is probably the "Best of both worlds".

Kroan
12-18-2013, 02:04 AM
To be honest, another BIG game that went back on their promise of exclusivity was Star Citizen. And I always found that respectable. It's far too late now to bring back some of the tiers, allthough they could reintreduce a similiar package to King for $200 (or something) if you ask me. I don't care they would hand out the "kickstarter"-exclusive cards to people willing to pledge that amount, but maybe I am alone in this. How Star Citizen did this was enable people to buy the same packages at an increased price and without the stretchgoal rewards.

Star Citizen raised around $25 million after the original Kickstart, speaking volumes for going back on their exclusive deals. In the end it all comes down to a simple question for everyone; "Why would I want to disallow someone else to donate money and get the exclusives I was lucky enough to buy a tier during a limited timeframe?"

Here is a quote from the star citizen page:

We are aware that the original Kickstarter page states that these ships would not be sold again. Had we the ability to edit this page, we would add the following information: We made a mistake! The concept was that for the ships with a specified inventory (Scythe and Idris-M), we were only ever going to sell that quantity – hence the never sell it again wording, but the other ships that were not quantity limited were meant to be limited in that we would have them for sale for limited durations, so they would be a scarce commodity. Unfortunately our wording did not communicate this and the impression on our original post was that everything offered for limited sale would not be sold again. We subsequently corrected this to clarify that we were really talking about the ships that were offered with finite quantities but the issue has continued to be raised. This is our official stance on this so please bookmark this post for future forum debate! :)

And

We’re not happy with how the “grey market” for Star Citizen ships has evolved. A limited number of users have hoarded rare ships and sold them for a premium to backers who discovered the game later on. Every day, the CS department receives more reports of users scammed while trying to purchase limited ships in this fashion. The idea behind LTI is to reward early supporters, not to give anyone a way to mistreat other Citizens. We’ve made this call to reinforce that the end-of-the-year sale is intended to reward everyone, not give particular users a chance to stockpile valuable ships for future resale. A New backer will have to pay more for a limited ship with LTI than an Original Backer or Veteran backer. This way the Original Backers and Veteran backers still get a reward for believing early but New backers will have an opportunity to pick up some special ships with LTI and not be forced into the grey market.

Handsofevil
12-18-2013, 02:24 AM
Kroan, that makes some sense, and I'd be fine with something similar to what SC did. That doesn't mean they should get everything. Maybe an increased price and no stretch goals is the way to do it. But ultimately it's up to CZE. My biggest issues was simply upgrading pledges to what was available during Kickstarter.

Kroan
12-18-2013, 02:30 AM
Kroan, that makes some sense, and I'd be fine with something similar to what SC did. That doesn't mean they should get everything. Maybe an increased price and no stretch goals is the way to do it. But ultimately it's up to CZE. My biggest issues was simply upgrading pledges to what was available during Kickstarter.

Oh yeah, definitely. It's not that early supporters shouldn't be rewarded for their loyalty, but there has to be some middle ground, right?

Gwaer
12-18-2013, 03:54 AM
You know what upsets me? I don't care who gets what at all. I've not once thrown my tiers in anyone's faces, merely stated my understood reasons why CZE made the decision they did and are sticking with that decision. Every time this has come up it has been people asking for upgrades that turn negative. I'm sorry you didn't get to pledge at a tier you wanted. I've missed a bunch of KS deals, and it's a little irritating but it's also the nature of the platform. Hell I've donated hundreds of packs and exclusives to SB's to sweeten the deal as part of a community effort. Not to mention donated innumerable hours to the community answering questions. I argued against people plastering their KS tiers in signatures just to avoid SB feeling like second class citizens. Yet the moment I say anything contradictory to your beliefs on how this should go I'm some kind of elitist jerk that just wants to keep my toys?

The he difference between this and star citizen is that this is going to be a digital collectors economy. Those are notoriously difficult to manage. If there's a flood of cheap packs cards will not retain any value. Some scarcity has to be maintained for the good of the game as a whole. Honestly I think there should have been far far less given to KS backers. The deals were just too sweet, and that's what causes a lot of these problems, and I think there will be negative repercussions from what is already done. Like I said before. If CZE needs money they can make some new specials and keep their promise to KS simultaneously. But for f*@!s sake stop accusing everyone of being elitist assholes just because they disagree with you.

Kroan
12-18-2013, 04:20 AM
I have a strange feeling you're talking to me...... If so, I am not sure why I deserve such a hostile attitude :P

ossuary
12-18-2013, 05:28 AM
That's what I always hate to see in these types of threads as well, Gwaer - people throwing around "elitist" just because they aren't getting what they want. And Kroan, I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking to you, but to the OP and to big_aug, who jumped in the thread a few posts later and started ranting and insulting.

hex_colin
12-18-2013, 05:38 AM
That's what I always hate to see in these types of threads as well, Gwaer - people throwing around "elitist" just because they aren't getting what they want. And Kroan, I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking to you, but to the OP and to big_aug, who jumped in the thread a few posts later and started ranting and insulting.

Agreed.

I always think about it through this lens: I missed Google's IPO because I didn't know about it/didn't have money at the time to invest. Google should let me buy shares now for the IPO price (even though they trade at some obscene valuation) so that I can get in at the same deal the original folks got. Clearly, that's not how the real world works. But, that's what people who ask for the KS tiers to be reopened are basically asking for. Why should this be any different?

That's not why I invested in CZE/Hex, but it's the reason a lot of folks put a lot of money into the KS: buy low, sell high once there's scarcity/demand. It's easy to see how they'd be upset if CZE went back on their promise (and reduced scarcity).

ossuary
12-18-2013, 05:58 AM
Well I'm one of those people who's not in it for the money, I just really want Hex and CZE to succeed. Because I've studied economy, I understand the meaning (and importance) of scarcity. Because I've studied psychology, I understand the ramifications of trust and honesty and openness on the success of a company. Personally, I would have no issue with more people being offered the rewards that I was offered, if I thought it would help the company. However, because of my understanding, I recognize that offering the rewards again would be extremely detrimental to CZE's image in the eyes of a great deal of people, and it would be an irreparable shift in perception for many (though most likely subconsciously).

I don't care a whit about the value of my collection personally, so long as the game is viable, because I'm in this for the long haul. I'm not the type of person who wants exclusives to be exclusives just so I can have them (I was never going to have a shot at the GenCon rewards, and I argued vehemently against CZE changing their original policy of in-person attendees only getting them). As long as the game is healthy, I'm happy. Frankly, there need to be things that some people have and others don't to maintain that health. This is a collectible game. If everyone had everything, none of it would have any value. For the long-term sustainability of the game, there need to be exclusives, and CZE needs to keep their word.

Any demand for otherwise is pure greed, or simple lack of understanding.

Kroan
12-18-2013, 06:23 AM
I always think about it through this lens: I missed Google's IPO because I didn't know about it/didn't have money at the time to invest. Google should let me buy shares now for the IPO price (even though they trade at some obscene valuation) so that I can get in at the same deal the original folks got. Clearly, that's not how the real world works. But, that's what people who ask for the KS tiers to be reopened are basically asking for. Why should this be any different? I hope you do realize comparing IPO to digital products is comparing apples with pears


And Kroan, I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking to you, but to the OP and to big_aug, who jumped in the thread a few posts later and started ranting and insulting. I don't see why the OP needs any harsh comments either. Also I'm confused because Gwaer was talking about things I brought up.

NoahBuddy
12-18-2013, 06:28 AM
i think it would be very bad for CZE to go back on their promise about the KS rewards/tiers. i don't really care about the exclusives but i do care about their promise. IMO it would be fine if they wanted to do founder packages that were more than the slacker backer but didn't contain KS exclusives. i don't think they will at this point because they would have already and it is known that the SB will be discontinued soon. i'm sorry so many people missed out on the kickstarter and i agree with ertzi that the elitism shown by some is shameful. every sig i see showing the owners KS tier starts an involuntary eye roll.

mudkip
12-18-2013, 07:04 AM
I don't see why the OP needs any harsh comments either. Also I'm confused because Gwaer was talking about things I brought up.

Yeah, I'm not sure what's with the hostility. Is this a sensitive issue?

XagoTrunk
12-18-2013, 07:48 AM
they should certainly consider letting people increase contributions. It's too bad elitism and cronyism will probably keep them from ever allowing people to do so.

http://imageshack.us/a/img69/6899/g0i4.gif

Ertzi
12-18-2013, 08:09 AM
I would accept paying more for the tiers as a punishment for being late to the party. I get that the early birds want to feel special. If the price would be steeper, the early backers could still be satisfied that they got the absolute best deal and everyone would be happy. I'm not sure I like the "no matter what, you can't have what I have" approach though. Especially if some people are planning to just sell their stuff at a high price.

I don't even care about exclusive champions or alternative art cards and such, you can keep those, but second chance to roll on a loot table or more exp for raids... that is a HUGE advantage in the long run in my opinion. These are also gameplay advantages, not vanity products, and I feel it's unfair even that I can never have those. Makes me quite upset to even think about that.

Edit -> typo destruction

Kami
12-18-2013, 08:24 AM
A late penalty is kind of meaningless when you're already getting a massive discount in terms of value for any of the KS tiers. Even if you pay a bit more, you're still getting your money's worth and more.

If they were to offer the KS tiers again, I'd expect them people who are actively seeking it to pay full value (i.e. no discount) for the KS tiers. If you actually cared about the tier and not getting a 'discount', this should not matter to you.

For instance, if the King Tier costs $120 but has a value of $500 (I haven't done calculations, just giving an example), I'd see the King Tier sold at $500 if the King Tier were made available again.

This topic has been brought up repeatedly over the past few months and frankly, there's no good solution short of maintaining the status quo which is not to offer KS tiers again.

hammer
12-18-2013, 09:16 AM
A late penalty is kind of meaningless when you're already getting a massive discount in terms of value for any of the KS tiers. Even if you pay a bit more, you're still getting your money's worth and more.

If they were to offer the KS tiers again, I'd expect them people who are actively seeking it to pay full value (i.e. no discount) for the KS tiers. If you actually cared about the tier and not getting a 'discount', this should not matter to you.

For instance, if the King Tier costs $120 but has a value of $500 (I haven't done calculations, just giving an example), I'd see the King Tier sold at $500 if the King Tier were made available again.

This topic has been brought up repeatedly over the past few months and frankly, there's no good solution short of maintaining the status quo which is not to offer KS tiers again.

I think this has been hinted at already but a Charity Auction of refunded Kickstarter tiers is one good solution. This would help raise money for charity, offer people a chance to acquire a tier if they really want to dig deep. It doesn't alter the amount of kickstarter rewards as they would have been awarded if Cryptozoic/Cory hadn't issued those refunds. I can't think of a reason why KS backers or non-KS backers would object.

I have no idea how many tiers have been refunded, I suepect not that many, and they wouldn't necessarily all need to be available via this route but seems like a win win.

Depending on how the auction is run its also advertisement for HEX....

Svenn
12-18-2013, 09:48 AM
There have been a lot of good points brought up here. As someone who tossed a ton of money at the Kickstarter (partially because of the exclusive rewards and the limited nature) I would be kind of upset if they just opened the gates again for anyone to grab these tiers. Call it "elitest" or whatever you want, but when I'm promised a limited time (and limited number) exclusive that is never going to be available again I expect that to be true. It's been mentioned before but scarcity is important for a collectible. If everyone can have everything then nothing has value.

Now, since there were supposed to be a set amount of each tier in the Kickstarter, personally I wouldn't mind too much (but I would mind some) if they were to sell off enough to hit that cap (either from refunded accounts or tiers that didn't fill up). There wouldn't be more floating around than they initially promised. Opening the floodgates on Kickstarter tiers would be a terrible idea though.

I have no problem with selling discounted packs or even offering some new exclusives, but the Kickstarter tiers have been done and sold out for 6+ months now.

I'd also like to point out that this kind of stuff happens all the time in all kinds of markets. Exclusive promos, pre-order bonuses, exclusive rewards from certain retailers, time limited/quantity limited special editions, exclusive sales... Sometimes you miss out on something you wanted for various reasons. It's not reasonable to expect that someone honor an offer that has expired.

Lawlschool
12-18-2013, 10:04 AM
I don't see why the OP needs any harsh comments either. Also I'm confused because Gwaer was talking about things I brought up.

I think Gwaer was responding to Ertiz who seemed to think that the KS pledgers were being elitist and lording their pledges over SBs. And Gwaer was frustrated with people who seem to think that higher-pledge backers were somehow assholes simply by virtue of the fact they pledge higher. Miscommunications all around. Don't think any of it was directed at you, Kroan, just happened that his post followed yours.

"Hindsight is 20/20," as they say. I'm pretty sure many of us are kicking ourselves for not backing at a higher tier right now. I know that if I knew now what I had know when the KS was going on that I wouldn't have dumped money in to Scrolls and would have used that to get a King tier (mostly for that sweet sweet Lotus Garden). Hell I'd be more than happy to up to a Collector or Dungeon Crawler, because I definitely see myself dropping a ton of money in to this game over the years.

But that's just it. Everyone who wants to upgrade wants to do so because of the incredible value of the KS tiers. It's not like you can't get 90% of that stuff later (hell you can even get exclusives if they go up on the AH), it's just going to cost more time and more money. It doesn't make business sense for CZE to let people get such a steep discount at this point. The discount was for the people who were willing to take the risk, who believed in the project at its inception, and as an incentive to get people to take the risk of backing.

FFS, they released a Slacker Backer so that people late to the KS could still get in on the action! And now people want more! Of course we want more, because it's a better value for us. But it's not a better value for CZE. If you want to up your pledge purely because you like what CZE is doing and want to support the further development of Hex, buy a Slacker Backer, or buy two. You still get some pretty awesome value out of it, just not the same level of value that KS pledgers got, and there's nothing wrong with that.

However, I do like the idea of a second round of "pledges," especially if CZE needs some more money for development. But they shouldn't be at the same level of value as the KS tiers. Not because of some perceived pseudo-elitism (which seriously, not sure how y'all think people with tiers in their sigs are being "elitist") but because it doesn't make sense for CZE to keep handing out stuff for free.

Hieronymous
12-18-2013, 10:26 AM
But that's just it. Everyone who wants to upgrade wants to do so because of the incredible value of the KS tiers. It's not like you can't get 90% of that stuff later (hell you can even get exclusives if they go up on the AH), it's just going to cost more time and more money. It doesn't make business sense for CZE to let people get such a steep discount at this point. The discount was for the people who were willing to take the risk, who believed in the project at its inception, and as an incentive to get people to take the risk of backing.


Basically this. Almost everything from the Kickstarter will be available for purchase later, and the few things that won't -- spectral lotus, etc. -- were specifically listed as "Kickstarter Only" and it would be breaking the pledge of the Kickstarter to change that, which would do harm to Crypto's business reputation and any future exclusive offers they wanted to run. A collectible seller has to stick by their "limited edition" promises or their market collapses.

I'm also pretty sure Crypto just doesn't need money as badly right now as they likely did at the start of the Kickstarter.

I'm sure there will be many future time-limited exclusive offers that new players will have a chance to join in on (and I'm also sure that at some point there will be Grand King kickstarter accounts for sale on auction sites -- actually a quick Google tells me that a few have already sold)

As soon as the kickstarter upgrades "matter" -- i.e. as soon as we're in Beta -- you'll also be able to just straight-up buy cards. In the meanwhile, Slacker Backer is still a decent if sub-optimal deal.


I think this has been hinted at already but a Charity Auction of refunded Kickstarter tiers is one good solution.

As a fairly high-level Kickstarter backer I'd personally have no problem with this, but it's up to Cory. I think the main concern is just making sure Crypto doesn't diminish their brand by cheapening the "exclusivity" of offers.

hammer
12-18-2013, 10:36 AM
Basically this. Almost everything from the Kickstarter will be available for purchase later, and the few things that won't -- spectral lotus, etc. -- were specifically listed as "Kickstarter Only" ...



Spectral Lotus and the Spectral Lotus Garden will be tradeable.

The only non-tradeable kickstarter rewards are the sleeves, the mercenaries, and the account bound tier flags (Pro-player draft per week and subsquent $250 tier drafts capped at year 1, Dungeon Crawler 100% Loot Bonus, Raid Leader Perk, Guild Master 10% Perk).

There was a lenghty discussion as to whether kickstarter mercenaries should be tradeable (we get that those earned during game play wont be tradable) I felt like this might have been revisited for promo mercenaries, afterall Gax and Portension in their card and chest form are tradeable and we have the sleeves for the truely untradeable "I was there" reward. But I think Cryptozoic have made it clear that the Kickstarter mercenaries were never intended nor-will-they-be available to trade.

Everything else will be available at the auction house like the starters, the packs, the PvE exclusives, the PvP Alt Arts and likely at reasonable price too given the quantities sold.

Vorpal
12-18-2013, 10:41 AM
I wish I had backed at a higher level than I did.

However, there is no reason for CZE to offer those KS tiers again, and many reasons not to (breaks their word, loses them money, etc)

So, I will hold onto those extra funds and use them for VIP and sales/deals on in game currency (which every F2P game I have ever seen has at some point).

Ertzi
12-18-2013, 11:14 AM
I think this has been hinted at already but a Charity Auction of refunded Kickstarter tiers is one good solution. This would help raise money for charity, offer people a chance to acquire a tier if they really want to dig deep. It doesn't alter the amount of kickstarter rewards as they would have been awarded if Cryptozoic/Cory hadn't issued those refunds. I can't think of a reason why KS backers or non-KS backers would object.

I really like this idea. No one should have any objections, because the tiers were already sold once. Bring on the auction!

I don't understand the weird fixation of "value" that many seem to have. I am not demanding the exact same deal that the early backers got, but I would love to be able to buy few of the perks, even at a significant cost increase. If I knew they could be purchased after the launch (even at a huge cost increase), I would never bring this issue up again. I just really hate being punished for something that I had no control over. And don't bring up the "those who believed in the project from the start" argument please, as I would have only needed to see two sentences in .txt format about the concept and I would have pledged all my money.

Svenn
12-18-2013, 11:29 AM
I really like this idea. No one should have any objections, because the tiers were already sold once. Bring on the auction!

I don't understand the weird fixation of "value" that many seem to have. I am not demanding the exact same deal that the early backers got, but I would love to be able to buy few of the perks, even at a significant cost increase.
It's a game of collections. Part of TCGs for many players is the value of the collection. Removing scarcity reduces the value of those things. Some of us consider TCGs to be somewhat of an investment. If someone suddenly told you that the value of your investment that you were told was secure was being significantly reduced because someone was going back on their word, would you be happy about it?


If I knew they could be purchased after the launch (even at a huge cost increase), I would never bring this issue up again. I just really hate being punished for something that I had no control over. And don't bring up the "those who believed in the project from the start" argument please, as I would have only needed to see two sentences in .txt format about the concept and I would have pledged all my money.
You aren't "being punished". Do you go around demanding to be given exclusive pre-order bonuses for a game because you didn't find out about it until after launch? Do you go to a store that was giving away special items with the purchase of another item 6 months later and say "I want that deal now!" It happens. Sometimes you miss out on things for various reasons and you are not entitled to them just because you would have done something differently if you knew.

I'm curious, for those of you who are complaining about not being able to get KS tiers, what is it that you really want from them? Really discounted cards? The exclusive PvE cards? The Alternate art PvP cards? The account perks? The sleeves?

The exclusive PvE cards and AA PvP cards will be available for trade in game, so you aren't really missing out on them. You will pay a premium for them, of course. You can get the regular versions of the PvP cards in game anyway, the AA is just for collection/prestige purposes. Sleeves are intended to be the "I was there" status symbols of Hex, so it doesn't make sense to give those away to people who missed the Kickstarter.

The account perks aren't that big a deal for the most part. The Collector is, again, just some alternate art versions of cards you'll be able to get in game anyway. Dungeon Master is slightly better loot drops. Guild Master just means leveling a little faster AND you only have to be in the guild with someone who has it to get the bonus. Raid Leader is the biggest boost, but all it really does is lower the difficulty on raids slightly (and honestly some of us want the option to turn it off). Pro player just gives a bunch of drafts which isn't exclusive, just a discount for getting in early.

Ertzi
12-18-2013, 11:51 AM
It's a game of collections. Part of TCGs for many players is the value of the collection. Removing scarcity reduces the value of those things. Some of us consider TCGs to be somewhat of an investment. If someone suddenly told you that the value of your investment that you were told was secure was being significantly reduced because someone was going back on their word, would you be happy about it?

Well, we are very different then. I don't consider my collection an investment, as I have no intentions of selling it. I'm here to have fun. But let's say that the scarcity argument is true. We are in Alpha, which is still a very exclusive club. Everyone who is here clearly believes in the game way before it's even close to ready. Why not reward that faith? Your collection would reduce in value 0 % at this time.



You aren't "being punished". Do you go around demanding to be given exclusive pre-order bonuses for a game because you didn't find out about it until after launch? Do you go to a store that was giving away special items with the purchase of another item 6 months later and say "I want that deal now!" It happens. Sometimes you miss out on things for various reasons and you are not entitled to them just because you would have done something differently if you knew.

Of course I'm being punished, don't be silly. I would never demand pre-order bonuses, because they are useless. Some of the things in HEX KS tiers are not. Herein lies the problem. Exclusive gameplay differencies are not cool. If this was any other game, I would walk away from it because of this. HEX is something so special, however, that I will not be going anywhere.

stiii
12-18-2013, 11:51 AM
I really like this idea. No one should have any objections, because the tiers were already sold once. Bring on the auction!

I don't understand the weird fixation of "value" that many seem to have. I am not demanding the exact same deal that the early backers got, but I would love to be able to buy few of the perks, even at a significant cost increase. If I knew they could be purchased after the launch (even at a huge cost increase), I would never bring this issue up again. I just really hate being punished for something that I had no control over. And don't bring up the "those who believed in the project from the start" argument please, as I would have only needed to see two sentences in .txt format about the concept and I would have pledged all my money.

Well you can buy most of these perks so I'm not really sure what you are complaining about?

Ertzi
12-18-2013, 11:57 AM
By the way... (I read the code of conduct and I believe I am not violating it because I am not trying to buy an account, I have one already)

If anyone is leaving the game for any reason and is willing to sell Dungeon Crawler or Grand King tier, I will double what you paid for them. I hope this is not against the forum rules, but I think this would be a good thing anyway, as a player who had a change of heart would be replaced by a loyal customer.

stiii
12-18-2013, 11:59 AM
Well, we are very different then. I don't consider my collection an investment, as I have no intentions of selling it. I'm here to have fun. But let's say that the scarcity argument is true. We are in Alpha, which is still a very exclusive club. Everyone who is here clearly believes in the game way before it's even close to ready. Why not reward that faith? Your collection would reduce in value 0 % at this time.



Yeah this just isn't true. Every extra person that gets cheap cards reduces the value of other people's collections. We already know that set one boosters will be worth less than $2 due to supply. So the more people that get added the bigger the supply.

Your arguments also all seem to be what would be best for you. It would be good for you for them to sell. It wouldn't matter to you that a collection doesn't hold as an investment. I'm sure these things are true but CZE doesn't just deal with you, these things do matter to other people.

Ertzi
12-18-2013, 12:01 PM
Well you can buy most of these perks so I'm not really sure what you are complaining about?

Can I buy the 100 % loot drop and the exp bonuses? In which case I would stop mentioning this issue immediately. I don't need the other stuff, as cool as those would be. And no one is complaining, don't be a douche.

Ertzi
12-18-2013, 12:07 PM
Your arguments also all seem to be what would be best for you. It would be good for you for them to sell. It wouldn't matter to you that a collection doesn't hold as an investment. I'm sure these things are true but CZE doesn't just deal with you, these things do matter to other people.

Well, duh. Of course my arguments are what would be better for me. As is your every argument about what you would like. That is the nature of arguments. But do read my previous posts. You can keep all the packs, alternative art cards, sleeves and other collectibles that have "value". Just give me a chance to buy the gameplay perks.

hammer
12-18-2013, 12:12 PM
I could see a case for selling account bolt-ons at release ie 1 draft a week for a year for a discounted $200 or selling 100% dungeon loot account bolt on for $100 or raid leader perk bolt on for $100 etc I don't think any of these perks were badged as kickstarter exclusive in their own rights.
I doubt it will happen but it's a possibility.

jimmywolf
12-18-2013, 12:13 PM
Can I buy the 100 % loot drop and the exp bonuses? In which case I would stop mentioning this issue immediately. I don't need the other stuff, as cool as those would be. And no one is complaining, don't be a douche.


main issue will always be opinion A versus opinion B



neither side going remove their opinion too validate the other, things as it stand their main focus should be 100% making great game, not who should/should not get X perk/card


after year or two after dust settle, if players are still saying hey their should be a option for X potion too increase drops or other perks for limited time i will support it 100%

stiii
12-18-2013, 12:15 PM
Well, duh. Of course my arguments are what would be better for me. As is your every argument about what you would like. That is the nature of arguments. But do read my previous posts. You can keep all the packs, alternative art cards, sleeves and other collectibles that have "value". Just give me a chance to buy the gameplay perks.

I read them. I saw lots of self centred whining. You want something so things should change for no reason other than you wanting it. As plenty of other people have pointed out CZE said KS would be the only way to get these perks so all they want is them to not go back on their word.

This is not the nature of arguments you need to be able to provide an objective reason for your wants other than this would be good for me. I want CZE to keep their word on what they promised. It would be intrinsically bad for them to break their word. You are just assuming I have these game play perks because I am in favour of not selling them, despite me never saying anything of the sort.

mudkip
12-18-2013, 12:17 PM
Can I buy the 100 % loot drop and the exp bonuses? In which case I would stop mentioning this issue immediately. I don't need the other stuff, as cool as those would be. And no one is complaining, don't be a douche.

I seriously would expect an in-game way to get those buffs one day. Buffs like the PvE extra draw would make balancing difficult, so I'm betting they will make a way to get the same buffs as a temporary effect in game.

As a DC backer, that's what I think will happen and I'm okay with it.

Lawlschool
12-18-2013, 12:23 PM
Of course I'm being punished, don't be silly. I would never demand pre-order bonuses, because they are useless. Some of the things in HEX KS tiers are not. Herein lies the problem. Exclusive gameplay differencies are not cool. If this was any other game, I would walk away from it because of this. HEX is something so special, however, that I will not be going anywhere.

So no offense intended, but you have a strange definition of "punishment." Punishment generally is something being inflicted on you, or taken away from you, as a deterrent to certain behavior. It's not "not getting something that you want." You might almost be right if you say it's "unfair," but that's kinda just how life goes.

The only Tier exclusive that seems slightly problematic to gameplay is the 100% Boss Loot Drops that are given to the Dungeon Crawler and Grand Kind + tiers. Even then, the only real problem with this is how it might slightly skew AH manipulation in their favor. Everything else you can either benefit from (the Guild / Raid leader tier bonuses apply to everyone in that Guild / Raid), or you can get otherwise at its normal price.

The problem with exclusives is that people who don't get them feel left out, or feel that things are unfair. But if everyone gets them, they're not exclusive, and it cheapens things for those who bought in for the exclusives. There really isn't a perfectly equitable solution to all this.

In the immortal words of Mick Jagger, "You can't always get what you want." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw)

Ertzi
12-18-2013, 12:25 PM
I read them. I saw lots of self centred whining. You want something so things should change for no reason other than you wanting it. As plenty of other people have pointed out CZE said KS would be the only way to get these perks so all they want is them to not go back on their word.

Sigh... some people simply have no manners. Can you give me a single good reason for not granting a loyal, enthusiastic player a chance to upgrade their KS tier, other than the usual mantra of "they can't break their word", which I mostly read as "I want to feel special, so no equal goodies for you" anyway, as there really would not be any downside for CZE for doing this? Please try to keep it civil, you can do it.

hammer
12-18-2013, 12:29 PM
Sigh... some people simply have no manners. Can you give me a single good reason for not granting a loyal, enthusiastic player a chance to upgrade their KS tier, other than the usual mantra of "they can't break their word", which I mostly read as "I want to feel special, so no equal goodies for you" anyway, as there really would not be any downside for CZE for doing this? Please try to keep it civil, you can do it.

You can buy what you want for market value on the auction house.

Chark
12-18-2013, 12:37 PM
Can you give me a single good reason for not granting a loyal, enthusiastic player a chance to upgrade their KS tier...?

[context: I was not a CZE employee at the time of this post.]

Yes:

Why would they give you a discount on product that they can sell to you at full value when the game releases?

If they wanted to continue selling packs at $1, they would have just made them $1. They don't actually need to offer any deals. They raised enough money to release the game.

Discounting is not always the right move. It devalues your brand and sets unmanageable expectations (I will only buy your product when it's on sale).

Shaqattaq
12-18-2013, 12:37 PM
When we launched the Kickstarter, we committed to making these rewards a one-time-only offer, and we're going to stick by our word just as our playerbase would expect us to honor any other commitment we've made. Trust is necessary between the HEX team and our community of players, especially since our Kickstarter backers made this project possible, and we shall not go back on our promise.

We've provided additional ways for players to join the HEX community post-Kickstarter campaign through the Slacker Backer donation, and we've even buffed the rewards since opening that up to players. Thank you to those who came in through Slacker Backer to back HEX; we hope you can understand that we must make good on our word to our players, and that will stay true throughout the life of HEX.