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Bells
12-18-2013, 04:21 PM
LETS NO FIGHT OVER EXCLUSIVITY OR BICKER ABOUT MINOR THINGS. OK? THIS IS JUST A TRADE OF IDEAS AND CONVERSATION ABOUT SOMETHING I FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT FOR THE HEX COMMUNITY. IT'S OK TO DISAGREE WITH IT, BUT PUT THE ROCKS DOWN FIRST AND LETS TALK ABOUT IT...


Initially my thought was that i was so happy with how HEX is turning out, that i wish i could've put more into it as a backer. I wanted to support it more. Specially after seeing that there were people asking refunds... i would gladly fill those gaps.

One thing i cannot understand though... is why can't you guys offer your backers other things that don't break your KS pledge?

I mean... seriously... keep all your KS pledges intact. Sure. But why not make a "Backer Only" store for the duration of the Alpha where people can purchase individual Addons with a discount?

Maybe i want to increase the number of "free drafts" i get... why can't i get these now? Maybe i want to buy extra Boosters in a bundle and save 30% now. What's the harm in that?

Maybe, as a support choice, i might want to convert a booster i have for a "Foil Booster" paying a little extra, just so i can continue expressing my support for this game... i wouldn't even be adding anything beyond my KS pledge, i would only be getting a little cosmetic thing for myself while giving extra support for a game i want to support more of.


Is there a fear that this will bring some break of balance to the game or the meta? Well, you know what, if you let me support this game further by buying something like... 10 extra boosters for $15, you know what you can do? Make the cards that come from those boosters non-tradable. I'm ok with that! Give them like a golden border or whatever, make it an "extra mile" collector's edition thing...

I'm totally ok with that, because it's not about getting advantages. It's about me being a fan of Hex since alpha. And i want to support it and make it strong. I beleived in the project in Kickstarter, then i got into the alpha and i went "Yep, i'm going to need more of this". So here i am...

And it's great that Crypt is making good on their word... that's awesome and i applaud them for it. But that doesn't mean you guys have to keep us, your backers, at arm's length. It's ok to open up a bit and let us support this game even further. Many of us want to, and just forcing us to wait until the final version... well... really that just kinda sucks.

There are many ways you guys CAN keep your word and bond to your backers and STILL allow us to share in support for this in-development game. These two things are not world's apart. Let's try to talk about it...

Gwaer
12-18-2013, 04:30 PM
I think a great deal of the problem is their business model. Cory has said repeatedly he doesn't want people to pay for extras, no paying for foils, no paying for any special cards, all of the stuff should be earned in game. Someone should have to level that card to get it foiled, no one should be able to just buy it, that cuts down a lot on the extras that they can provide. Another huge issue is testing to see if the business model is sound in the first place. They really are trying something very edgy here. They want PVP to support and coexist with the player influx of f2p pve. They want to subsist only on those boosters that players buy.

To that end, every dollar they don't make once they launch hurts their initial testing to see if it's sustainable, what if everyone who was interested spent all their money right now, and they had nothing immediately after launch? They would have to look at the meager income they're making from booster packs and extrapolate that out to the future. The clearer a picture they can get in the first 3-6 months of the game being out the better for their future budgeting based on that income. Everything they do before that skews those numbers and there is only so much you can take into account. If all you're interested in as you say is helping the game, then help them then when it matters rather than now when they have all of the money they need.

mudkip
12-18-2013, 04:54 PM
The 5 stages of Grief for someone missing a tier they want:

1. Denial — "It's okay, they'll offer the tiers again"

2. Anger — "Fuck this, it's not worth it, I want a refund!"

3. Bargaining — This thread.

4. Depression — "What's the point of playing if I can't have a higher tier!"

5. Acceptance — "It's going to be great regardless and these bonuses are only fleeting in the grand scheme of Hex."

Jinxies
12-18-2013, 04:55 PM
The downside to selling boosters now for 30% off is that they'd earn 30% less than if they just waited and sold those boosters later. Provided they're not completely running out of money there's no reason to offer more discounts at this point. There's enough value in the slackerbacker program already they don't need to give us any more discounts that will hurt them in the long run.

Xenavire
12-18-2013, 04:57 PM
Want to help more? Pledge more slacker backers. It's worth it from a monetary standpoint (albiet reduced due to the lack of certain things stacking) and you get to support the game.

Everything else is off limits now - no buying perks, sleeves, champs/mercs. Just packs and decks. No point asking for more at this point - the time came and went. So take it or leave it - I doubt it is worth quitting over, but if it helps, I have a suggestion.

Slacker plus - for every Slacker backer you pledge after the first, the ViP rewards and the digital art books are replaced by another bonus starter/structure deck. But that is about the best you could hope for - you are already getting good value with the current slacker backer.

ossuary
12-18-2013, 05:14 PM
Don't you find it a bit antagonistic to come in and say "let's not fight," and then say "put your rocks down" immediately afterwards? People might be more willing to listen to you if you didn't start out with covert insults and superiority in your stance.

Also, you really shouldn't resurrect a conversation that's just been locked. You can say this is a new conversation, but really, it's just coming at the exact same thing from a slightly different angle.

Shaqattaq
12-18-2013, 05:26 PM
We're watching this thread closely. If it starts going sideways, we'll close it.

Xenavire
12-18-2013, 05:43 PM
Hey, Shaq, while you are watching, I had a fun idea for a mechanic, and it might just move this thread into happier territory. The basic isdea is to have a powerful effect (like plan C) for a relatively cheap cost, that incurrs a cost over later turns. As an example:

Mortgage: You may cast this card for X less. At the start of every turn, gain one temporary resource less until X has been repaid.

I can't word it nicely, but the idea is you pay for, say, a big burn spell, maybe 5 damage. The normal cost is 5, but instead you could mortgage is to cost 3, then have one less mana for your turn over the next two turns. It might be a tough one to slot in without it being a gamebreaker, but it seems like a fun idea for the whole digital nature of Hex.

Maybe other people can chip in with interesting ideas too?

Bells
12-18-2013, 05:53 PM
Want to help more? Pledge more slacker backers. It's worth it from a monetary standpoint (albiet reduced due to the lack of certain things stacking) and you get to support the game.

Everything else is off limits now - no buying perks, sleeves, champs/mercs. Just packs and decks. No point asking for more at this point - the time came and went. So take it or leave it - I doubt it is worth quitting over, but if it helps, I have a suggestion.

Slacker plus - for every Slacker backer you pledge after the first, the ViP rewards and the digital art books are replaced by another bonus starter/structure deck. But that is about the best you could hope for - you are already getting good value with the current slacker backer.

If i could do something like this... like... buy extra Slacker backers and have the benefits add (even if partially) to my already defined backer account, i think that would be great actually... Slacker Backer has a decent package. The only change i would make is that if you add a Slacker Backer to your already existing pledge , instead of one more deck you get 1 extra month of VIP. You don't get an extra alpha key, don't get extra digital artbook, it's well priced and avaliable to those who want a bit more. that would be fine, really....


I don't like the line of thought "they won't sell stuff cheaper now because they can sell it more expensive later" because it rings of as greedy to me. And i don't see Crypt as being Greedy. I'm sure if there was a way to allow more access to content without breaking the balanace of the game or community, that would be doable...

As for not paying for extras... i can understand that. It makes sense... but hey, that's the point... to bounce around decent ideas. Maybe nothing changes, maybe a new idea comes up... surely talking wont hurt if people manage to not be dicks about it.

Lawlschool
12-18-2013, 06:36 PM
I don't like the line of thought "they won't sell stuff cheaper now because they can sell it more expensive later" because it rings of as greedy to me. And i don't see Crypt as being Greedy. I'm sure if there was a way to allow more access to content without breaking the balanace of the game or community, that would be doable...


It's not greedy to want people to pay fair market value for a product.

Simply put, for anyone looking to support Hex, Slacker Backers still exist, and they are still a great value compared to what you'll be getting at launch. There's not much use fantasizing about ways to give CZE money in exchange for things you want when there's already a perfectly good option out there.

Handsofevil
12-18-2013, 08:20 PM
I think a great deal of the problem is their business model. Cory has said repeatedly he doesn't want people to pay for extras, no paying for foils, no paying for any special cards, all of the stuff should be earned in game. Someone should have to level that card to get it foiled, no one should be able to just buy it, that cuts down a lot on the extras that they can provide. Another huge issue is testing to see if the business model is sound in the first place. They really are trying something very edgy here. They want PVP to support and coexist with the player influx of f2p pve. They want to subsist only on those boosters that players buy.

I think Gwaer hit this entire idea right on the head. There's a reason Kickstarter is so successful for companies and individuals to use. It builds immense hype and gets people in the door. Once that hype has been built, and word spreads, they put the price back at market value and make a ton of money. That doesn't sound greedy to me, that sounds like plain business sense...


The 5 stages of Grief for someone missing a tier they want:

1. Denial — "It's okay, they'll offer the tiers again"

2. Anger — "Fuck this, it's not worth it, I want a refund!"

3. Bargaining — This thread.

4. Depression — "What's the point of playing if I can't have a higher tier!"

5. Acceptance — "It's going to be great regardless and these bonuses are only fleeting in the grand scheme of Hex."

I think mudkip hit it as well. Just because you didn't get what you want doesn't mean you deserve it.



If i could do something like this... like... buy extra Slacker backers and have the benefits add (even if partially) to my already defined backer account, i think that would be great actually...

As for not paying for extras... i can understand that. It makes sense... but hey, that's the point... to bounce around decent ideas. Maybe nothing changes, maybe a new idea comes up... surely talking wont hurt if people manage to not be dicks about it.

Why do you need them to add together? That's a decent amount of work on their end because they'd have to separate those who want them merged and those who want 4 different SB accounts. And you say it wont hurt if people manage to not be dicks, yet this thread keeps popping up from people wanting what they missed and 9/10 times I see someone pop in calling those who backed at higher tiers elitists and demanding they get it.

I'd be fine with a larger variety of SB type options, but Cory has already confirmed that SB will be going away soon. So why is everyone asking for upgrades and more options now? This is the type of thing that should have been brought up a few weeks after Alpha hit.

stiii
12-18-2013, 08:30 PM
People sure do want to give CZE money

Bells
12-18-2013, 08:45 PM
I think mudkip hit it as well. Just because you didn't get what you want doesn't mean you deserve it.



Yeah... just a side note, i'm actively ignoring these sorts of commentaries because they are actually incredible dumb, miss the point AND are absolutely not related to what i'm saying. Plus, they don't contribute to the conversation...

It's not about "deserving it" it's about wanting to show support, get more involved with the game, assist further. There is absolutely zero things wrong with wanting to expand my pledge over a product i truly think it's 100% worth it. It's not about a matter of "deserving it" is simply a matter that i would like to contribute more to Crypt due to the great job they are making, and if there is a way for me to expand the content i already purcahsed for the game in the mean time, i would love to be able to do so. i've seen other kickstarters doing it... i see merit in bringing the conversation over here.

...it's really not that hard of a concept to understand. It really isn't...


People sure do want to give CZE money

I pledged what i could at the time, but i'll gladly support a great idea that is being well managed.

Gwaer
12-18-2013, 09:05 PM
I've bought a few SB's for just the reasons you pointed out. Most of them I will likely give to friends who show up very late to the party.

Bells
12-18-2013, 09:07 PM
It is a solution. One that i certainly encourage, after all, always best to play with friends... but that's an option we know. But the idea of other options is not so outlandish that shouldn't be discussed or considered...

Ju66ernaut
12-18-2013, 09:25 PM
Hey Bells,

CZE has the funding they need to bring the game to launch. Why not save your money up for the time being and then support the game by buying Plat when the game launches? We're pretty sure that the pack market will be flooded and that you will be able to pick up extra packs at a price discounted to a rate equivalent to KS rates, maybe even cheaper. That way you are still supporting CZE directly by giving them noney for the in game currency and also supporting the game economy. Assuming that the auction house will be up and running when the game launches, you will be able to purchase just about everything available in the KS tiers with the exception of mercs, sleeves, and perks.

Handsofevil
12-18-2013, 09:52 PM
Bells, if you read my post and any of my posts on the other threads I am not against options. I am against re-opening Kickstarter tiers and rewards. What you suggested was allowing people to buy the same perks and rewards through some sort of store. Even at a higher price, it removes the exclusivity of the rewards, which has been proven to weaken the in-game economy.

My biggest issue with the whole thing is that CZE has said that they are closing SB, so why ask for more options? If you want to support the game, do it! Buy the SB, spread the word, or set aside money for the full release.

Grumph
12-18-2013, 09:58 PM
I think if you want to get cheaper packs you should be asking about the possibility of increasing the VIP sub value and price. I've thought about this a bit and I think 9 packs and 3 tournament tickets for $12-15 a month would be pretty awesome. It would bring the affordability of Hex in line with more traditional MMO's. The ability to draft 3 times a month for 4-5 bucks a pop and anymore than that will cost you regular price would be a pretty nice deal.Realistically though, I could see them not amping up the VIP program though as pack farming will probably be something that will be tough to keep under control even at 4 packs a month. just a thought

Ju66ernaut
12-18-2013, 10:47 PM
I have to disagree with you on this one Grumph. I really think that CZE would be devaluing themselves if they offered something like that. Their current VIP program is quite nice. It allows players to save their packs for a few weeks then play a $4 dollar draft or they may be enticed to buy more packs from CZE or pick them up from the AH.

Offering bulk discounts would have too great of an effect on the game economy if you look at the big picture. We want a game where our collections will retain value. It creates a situation where some folks would take advantage of the discounts, but the value of everyone's collections would be effected negatively.

Grumph
12-18-2013, 10:58 PM
yea your right, whenever I think about Hex and it's future I tend to want to see it have a really massive player base, so my thought process always leans towards affordability and accessibility. I often forget about the collection and value retention aspects of the game.

Gwaer
12-18-2013, 11:02 PM
The massive player base should come from the f2p PVE campaign without deep discounts to packs. The hope is enough people fall in love with the game and want to move to PVP or at least purchasing things to help with PVE.

Ertzi
12-18-2013, 11:10 PM
Yeah... not even going to say anything about the main subject. Done that. I'm just here to add levity now by saying that my levels of grief were a bit different:

1. Extreme annoyance (Can't believe there was actually a Kickstart for once I wanted to back and I missed it! Fuuuuuck!)

2. Bargaining (Can't hurt to try to get the stuff later, heh heh... *scratches neck like an addict*)

3. Acceptance (They're never going to do that, are they? Well, shiiiiite.)

I just realized something else about myself. I am actually against all things exclusive. I mean, I love to collect stuff and amass my collection gradually, but my preference would be for everyone to have a chance to acquire everything in every game if they wanted. I wish everyone can have all the toys. I guess many people prefer to own stuff that others can't ever have and that is like the main priority. I'm just not like that. Huh. This is like a therapy session :)

For the same reason I absolutely hate limited-time events in MMOs, where you have to sink a huge amount of time in a short time-frame to get some very rare goodies that can then never be acquired again by simply playing. Those events are so popular though that I seem to be in a minority.

Hey, I learned something about myself today. That is more valuable than the KS rewards.

Banquetto
12-19-2013, 12:16 AM
CZE has the funding they need to bring the game to launch. Why not save your money up for the time being and then support the game by buying Plat when the game launches?

This sums it up.

CZE don't need more pre-launch cash to launch the game. They got the cash. If you want to show your support, do it by hyping the game, telling everyone you know about it, etc.

Then, once it launches, throw money at CZE and buy loads of boosters and tournament entries. :)

Zomnivore
12-19-2013, 01:25 AM
I think creating pre-launch exclusives outside of the ks was sort of frowned on, but I don't honestly see a huge problem with it as long as they don't exacerbate the launch schedule.

I mean things outside of exclusive cards of course (people really don't want to have paid a buttload to get a lot of cool cards at the start, to then have to pay even more for cool cards at the start...when they just got done with it...to fill out their collections), personally I think developing customizable features now and growing that as a compelling experience pre-launch would be healthy for people so that they accept it quicker and the post launch crowd doesn't have to see any of that sort of tension.

mudkip
12-19-2013, 07:49 AM
1. Extreme annoyance (Can't believe there was actually a Kickstart for once I wanted to back and I missed it! ...
That's denial.

Fuuuuuck!)
There's the anger!

3. Acceptance (They're never going to do that, are they? Well, shiiiiite.)
That's the depression stage: you're giving up hope.

Acceptance will come with time.


Related but bad quality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6mh8SX_sXs

jetah
12-19-2013, 07:33 PM
The way I see it. KS is over and people have to accept that. But I also feel that CZE could introduce quarterly support packs. These support packs can have many tiers, from 15$ - 1,000$. Some items can be exclusive or not, some items can be physical with the option to remove those for Plat, these packs can also include Plat.

These packs could vary as much as being for PvE, Keep items, Hero/Merc Fashion, board designs, few equips, etc.

If quarterly is too often than make them yearly or semi-annually.



Also to add, if you want to support CZE then save your monies up and wait for the store to hit in HEX.

mudkip
12-19-2013, 08:02 PM
1,000$.

Whoa there, tiger! If you do something that extreme it alienates the casuals.

If CZE want to sell extra stuff it needs to be aesthetic (Card covers, alternate art etc.)

Xenavire
12-19-2013, 08:10 PM
Whoa there, tiger! If you do something that extreme it alienates the casuals.

If CZE want to sell extra stuff it needs to be aesthetic (Card covers, alternate art etc.)

They said they wont be doing that. If anything, they should introduce fun types of booster packs - block packs, with 45 cards randomly selected from across the entire block it originated from (3 rares, 9 uncommons, 33 commons), for a price either equal to or slightly cheaper than the cost of that many normal boosters.

Pre playable random deck packs (1-2 shards randomly assorted, decent distribution of commons/uncommons/rares) that is placed in your deck list with resources - set to play right out of the box, great fun for casual games against friends.

Maybe they could even have luck packs, with less chances of good cards, but with higher chances at good loot chests and even primal packs?

They have design space for rewards without monetising cosmetics.

jetah
12-19-2013, 08:13 PM
Whoa there, tiger! If you do something that extreme it alienates the casuals.

If CZE want to sell extra stuff it needs to be aesthetic (Card covers, alternate art etc.)

Well I know that I'll end up spending around 980 on Path of Exile for their supporter pack. Don't see why CZE has to limit theirs to 5$. If people love HEX they will drop that much or more. Even Path of Exile had a 12,000$ package at one time that offered the creation of a monster (CZE could have the person that drops that much design a dungeon or a keep or something like that).

I know that PoE is pure f2p with microtransactions and that HEX will have P2P for PvP with PvE being f2p.

mudkip
12-19-2013, 09:29 PM
Maybe they could even have luck packs, with less chances of good cards, but with higher chances at good loot chests and even primal packs?
I hope they don't include any way where you can pay more for better cards.

Handsofevil
12-19-2013, 09:44 PM
I hope they don't include any way where you can pay more for better cards.

^

Xenavire
12-19-2013, 09:58 PM
I never said they would give better cards, in fact the exact opposite. Make the good cards rarer, but make the random rewards more common - those treasure chests have all those skins and sleeves etc that people are suggesting be monetised. And primal packs could be increased by a minor fraction - instead of 1/100 packs it could be 1/95 - considering what you would lose out in buying normal packs, it would not be an attractive trade, but it would be fun.

Still, not all my ideas are gems obviously, but CZE has non-cosmetic options without breaking their promise of 'only packs and starter/structure decks.'

Tinuvas
12-19-2013, 10:41 PM
The downside to selling boosters now for 30% off is that they'd earn 30% less than if they just waited and sold those boosters later...There's enough value in the slackerbacker program already they don't need to give us any more discounts that will hurt them in the long run.

I don't agree with the first part fully, people usually have money to burn now AND money to burn later. They usually won't save that money to spend when the store opens up. I do agree with the second part though. SB is a great value for anyone wanting a leg up when the game releases. I think if you want to spend money on Hex, you have an avenue to do it RIGHT NOW that is AWESOME!

As for the OP, I can't imagine that CZE won't have awesome sales, cool promotions, prebuys, etc. etc. etc. as things move along. I think suggesting otherwise is a touch short sighted. They'll figure out what works best for their business model and there will be cool places to lose your cash. It will happen. Patience young padawan. The great money pit will open soon enough. And then those of us who wish to throw our financial resources away will find ourselves crying for joy at the opportunity to do so.

Ertzi
12-20-2013, 01:08 AM
That's denial.

There's the anger!

That's the depression stage: you're giving up hope.

Acceptance will come with time.


Related but bad quality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6mh8SX_sXs

Man, you totally missed the point of my post. This happens a lot on this forum, but that's cool, I'm here to straighten things up. The entire point was to humorously point out my particular stages of grief (and by default admitting I had those). No need to pedanticly go over my post and force everything into your pigeonhole. Lighten up, dude. Jokes are a thing.

Ertzi
12-20-2013, 01:24 AM
They said they wont be doing that. If anything, they should introduce fun types of booster packs - block packs, with 45 cards randomly selected from across the entire block it originated from (3 rares, 9 uncommons, 33 commons), for a price either equal to or slightly cheaper than the cost of that many normal boosters.

Pre playable random deck packs (1-2 shards randomly assorted, decent distribution of commons/uncommons/rares) that is placed in your deck list with resources - set to play right out of the box, great fun for casual games against friends.

Maybe they could even have luck packs, with less chances of good cards, but with higher chances at good loot chests and even primal packs?

They have design space for rewards without monetising cosmetics.

I love all these ideas. Randomness + Limited = bliss for me. I would even go as far as to - when more sets are out - make packs available for purchase that have random cards from every known set, block and expansion. I would get a huge kick out of playing those against friends and would certainly purchase many of them.

I might be the only one who thought the brief April Fool's Sealed thingy in Magic that had one booster in the pool from all the old sets up to a certain block was beyond awesome. Anything to add random fun to the game I will spend money on. Guaranteed.

mudkip
12-20-2013, 07:53 AM
Lighten up, dude. Jokes are a thing.

Take your own advice.

Jinxies
12-20-2013, 09:08 AM
I don't agree with the first part fully, people usually have money to burn now AND money to burn later. They usually won't save that money to spend when the store opens up.

Well I guess it's different for certain people. When I played MTG I 2ould buy say 3 display boxes, 2 for opening and 1 for drafting. If I had the option to buy them earlier for 30% off I wouldn't buy more displays later. I'm planning on doing the same thing for Hex I have enough boosters that I wont buy any for Set 1 all I'll be spending money on until Set 2 is the draft fee. Lots of people I know does this and they aren't kickstarter backers so they would just buy all the boosters they'll need now at 30% off and then not spend anything else until the next set.

Lawlschool
12-20-2013, 09:10 AM
Take your own advice.

Let's not fight guys. Humor, especially sarcasm, doesn't translate well through text so misunderstandings are going to occur.

jetah
12-20-2013, 11:30 AM
I love all these ideas. Randomness + Limited = bliss for me. I would even go as far as to - when more sets are out - make packs available for purchase that have random cards from every known set, block and expansion. I would get a huge kick out of playing those against friends and would certainly purchase many of them.

I might be the only one who thought the brief April Fool's Sealed thingy in Magic that had one booster in the pool from all the old sets up to a certain block was beyond awesome. Anything to add random fun to the game I will spend money on. Guaranteed.

Forever packs were suggested already.

SomeoneRandom
12-20-2013, 12:09 PM
I love all these ideas. Randomness + Limited = bliss for me. I would even go as far as to - when more sets are out - make packs available for purchase that have random cards from every known set, block and expansion. I would get a huge kick out of playing those against friends and would certainly purchase many of them.

I might be the only one who thought the brief April Fool's Sealed thingy in Magic that had one booster in the pool from all the old sets up to a certain block was beyond awesome. Anything to add random fun to the game I will spend money on. Guaranteed.

I am not quite sure what the April Fool's Sealed thing is, but I really hope the guild organizing events are really flexible. One of my favorite formats is what we call Auction Draft. 6-10 people, two team captains that each get 500 points (number is irrelevant as long as it is big enough) we then make "lots" with different types of packs etc. One lot might be a single pack of a really strong set, another lot might be 5 common/uncommon mana fixers (tri or duallands), another might be a single bomb rare, or 5 packs of a really garbage set. Then we throw all the other players in as lots as well. A lot is randomly chosen then called off, captains blindly bid on the item and winner gets it. Once they get players the players can help on bidding and advice etc. After lots are all won each player builds a deck with all the cards the TEAM has. It makes some really interesting decisions, give the worst player the strongest deck to hopefully win some games? Or give the best deck to the best player to help ensure lots of wins? How do you deal with decks that want the same card, etc. It is really the most fun I have ever had with magic and would love to do it with Hex once the game is a bit more mature.

stiii
12-20-2013, 12:37 PM
Man, you totally missed the point of my post. This happens a lot on this forum, but that's cool, I'm here to straighten things up. The entire point was to humorously point out my particular stages of grief (and by default admitting I had those). No need to pedanticly go over my post and force everything into your pigeonhole. Lighten up, dude. Jokes are a thing.

Maybe it would be easier to lighten up if you didn't randomly insult people. Goodwill is based on past actions.

Xtopher
12-20-2013, 05:31 PM
I think there will be new offers open to everyone once the store is open. I don't think you'll see booster bundles at 30% off, though, they're already cheap at $2 each.

Edit: You know, you can still buy slacker backers. That's 33 boosters for $50, which is almost 30% off.

jetah
12-20-2013, 09:05 PM
I've asked about boosters going on sale or if 'boxes' of boosters could be purchased at a cheaper price. Cory pretty much said "nope, 2$ is the cheapest." *not a direct quote but it was something like that.

Keeps
Keep items could be sold much like Rift has their housing. Some items are individual or in bundles.

Hero/Merc
There could be an extensive number of skins for sale, and/or some could be unlocked via achievements or something similar.


Pay 4 Convenience
They way I see it. You have two methods of acquisition. You can sell items to people that want it now and you can offer those same items via game play. Those that have the cash can have shiny now and those without cash can get it via game play.

Of course there will always be items exclusive to those that play. From what I gather from Cory, he doesn't want exclusive items from a cash shop (KS withstanding).

Gwaer
12-20-2013, 11:09 PM
As far as I understand it you just can't buy anything save packs, starter decks, and tournament entry fees for plat from CZE. Everything else will be gold purchases from npc's, or plat/gold/goods trades between players

jetah
12-21-2013, 08:08 AM
As far as I understand it you just can't buy anything save packs, starter decks, and tournament entry fees for plat from CZE. Everything else will be gold purchases from npc's, or plat/gold/goods trades between players

and that's my point. a pve player, who has zero interest in tournaments, has nothing to spend cash on. Boosters can be purchased via AH. Yet we have keeps customization and a multitude of cosmetic items that could be available to those players.

CZE can't (I guess shouldn't would be a better word) pigeonhole themselves to packs, starter decks and tournament fee's.

Ertzi
12-21-2013, 09:54 AM
Maybe it would be easier to lighten up if you didn't randomly insult people.

I would really like to let this matter rest already, but I will defend myself against baseless accusations every time. Never once have I insulted anyone on this forum. Feel free to go through every one of my posts and quote me where I call someone a name or something. If you still think I have insulted someone, then fair enough, we just have a different definition of the word. Not being hostile by the way, but it's dangerous and way too easy to label people and just say they have done something. Almost every time people simply take that as gospel.

Now, I don't remember every one of my posts, which puts me at a very uncomfortable situation if you do find something hateful I have said, but I trust in my character enough that I can issue this challenge. Remember though, I will absolutely do the same if prompted and we can compare who has the more abusive comments.

But like someone said, let's not fight.

Tinuvas
12-21-2013, 10:45 AM
...a pve player, who has zero interest in tournaments, has nothing to spend cash on...

Actually, that is utterly untrue. CZE has built Hex around a pretty smart system. Yes you can run PvE for free, and yes you can get everything you ever wanted FROM PvE for free, but that's the short answer. Remember, every card, PvE or PvP, will have equipment attached to it. That equipment will drop in the PvE world. The moment you see that, you're going to go "awesome! Get me one (or 4) of these!". You can then buy packs until you get what you want, or go to the AH. If you choose to go the 'free' route and hit up the AH for your cards, supply and demand will keep prices from being irrelevant, and may even cost you platinum (read: real cash equivalent) for the really high end, in demand cards. Even if you find some cards for gold instead of plat, SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE paid good money for those cards. Your purchase of those cards helps create a strong market and a desire for many to purchase more cards from CZE.

Another point is that CZE is keeping the cosmetic awesomeness as tools to manipulate the player base. While on the surface these things are 'free', the collectible nature of them create neat opportunities for CZE to push people into buying more of their product and supporting the game overall.

It may not seem so on the surface, but there will be plenty of places to spend your money to support the game and the company. Cory may seem like the philanthropic gamer, but CZE will make money on this deal.

Grumph
12-21-2013, 11:10 AM
The treasure chest, especially during events, will hold a high value for the PvE player as well. Alt art and event exclusive mercs will entice everyone to buy some booster packs

stiii
12-21-2013, 11:53 AM
I would really like to let this matter rest already, but I will defend myself against baseless accusations every time. Never once have I insulted anyone on this forum. Feel free to go through every one of my posts and quote me where I call someone a name or something. If you still think I have insulted someone, then fair enough, we just have a different definition of the word. Not being hostile by the way, but it's dangerous and way too easy to label people and just say they have done something. Almost every time people simply take that as gospel.

Now, I don't remember every one of my posts, which puts me at a very uncomfortable situation if you do find something hateful I have said, but I trust in my character enough that I can issue this challenge. Remember though, I will absolutely do the same if prompted and we can compare who has the more abusive comments.

But like someone said, let's not fight.

It is hardly my fault you can't remember what you said in your own posts.

"Can I buy the 100 % loot drop and the exp bonuses? In which case I would stop mentioning this issue immediately. I don't need the other stuff, as cool as those would be. And no one is complaining, don't be a douche."

You have a bunch of other insulting posts too but this one is a textbook insult. If you don't want to fight then maybe YOU should try being civil.


I think the best thing about your post is all the hedging you do. First you cay I can't find these insults because they don't exist. Then you move onto saying well I'm sure you insulted me too. Then you want to not fight.

Grumph
12-21-2013, 12:14 PM
I hope everyone was finished discussing the topic, looks like a thread closure is imminent. This is why we cant have nice things! :p

hammer
12-21-2013, 12:16 PM
Guys it's a game. Don't let your love and desire cloud judgement and quarrel unnecessarily. I say this because Hex went to my head after the kickstarter and I got carried away, acted out of character and started a bun-fight with a few members from an active clan. Just let it go and enjoy hex :D

Gwaer
12-21-2013, 12:18 PM
Nah, if it's just the two of them they can delete posts rather than close the topic and issue warnings.

The fact that even for player to player trades that happen with plat, both players gave CZE money for that plat. So even with few things to buy from CZE. PVE players that want to spend money can buy things from other players for that plat. Eventually someone will buy a pack or deck or tournament entry.

hammer
12-21-2013, 12:21 PM
F2P PvE will be such a Gateway Drug for so many :D

jetah
12-21-2013, 12:26 PM
Actually, that is utterly untrue. CZE has built Hex around a pretty smart system. Yes you can run PvE for free, and yes you can get everything you ever wanted FROM PvE for free, but that's the short answer. Remember, every card, PvE or PvP, will have equipment attached to it. That equipment will drop in the PvE world. The moment you see that, you're going to go "awesome! Get me one (or 4) of these!". You can then buy packs until you get what you want, or go to the AH. If you choose to go the 'free' route and hit up the AH for your cards, supply and demand will keep prices from being irrelevant, and may even cost you platinum (read: real cash equivalent) for the really high end, in demand cards. Even if you find some cards for gold instead of plat, SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE paid good money for those cards. Your purchase of those cards helps create a strong market and a desire for many to purchase more cards from CZE.

A f2p player with zero interest in pvp will not bother buying plat. You said that PvE will have equipment drops, again, the PvE'er will just farm for it. Or they'll use the gold they get and buy it off the Gold AH. I'll assume that there will be some Packs on the Gold AH too, thus helping the f2p player not buy Plat.


Another point is that CZE is keeping the cosmetic awesomeness as tools to manipulate the player base. While on the surface these things are 'free', the collectible nature of them create neat opportunities for CZE to push people into buying more of their product and supporting the game overall.

It may not seem so on the surface, but there will be plenty of places to spend your money to support the game and the company. Cory may seem like the philanthropic gamer, but CZE will make money on this deal.

From what I gathered from Cory, he didnt want to sell anything outside of boosters and tournament entry fee's. Again, that puts the PvE person out of the loop (yeah i can argue about boosters).

The PvE crowed will want to purchase cosmetic items for their keep or Hero Skins, etc.

Ertzi
12-21-2013, 12:28 PM
It is hardly my fault you can't remember what you said in your own posts.

"Can I buy the 100 % loot drop and the exp bonuses? In which case I would stop mentioning this issue immediately. I don't need the other stuff, as cool as those would be. And no one is complaining, don't be a douche."

You have a bunch of other insulting posts too but this one is a textbook insult. If you don't want to fight then maybe YOU should try being civil.


I think the best thing about your post is all the hedging you do. First you cay I can't find these insults because they don't exist. Then you move onto saying well I'm sure you insulted me too. Then you want to not fight.

Hmmm. I will concede that douche comment was uncalled for, even though even you would probably admit that it is not even close to just calling someone a douche - especially in the context of that post (I maintain that the word "complain" was used hostilely towards me at the time). I can admit when I have erred. Yet, I only lash out when someone is being rude to me. That is something I can't stand. I am only human and I might react to something in a not-perfect way. I'm really not going to go through your posts though, even though I'm sure I would find some similar stuff in there. My challenge was mostly a test if you would really want to be right / win the argument so badly that you would actually go through my previous posts. You actually did and that is pretty funny and tells something about you (no idea what and I am not suggesting anything). Now can we agree to let this matter die and give this thread back to the original topic?

Ertzi
12-21-2013, 12:34 PM
F2P PvE will be such a Gateway Drug for so many :D

Yeah, no kidding. I love drafting to bits, but I might never be able to do that if I'm knee-deep in dungeons all the time! Equip gathering will be the thing that does me in though. I hope I can gather everything as quickly as possible so I can get some PvP in as well :D

Xenavire
12-21-2013, 12:41 PM
Stii, can I suggest that you move the argument to PM's? This thread is actually one of the more interesting and less complain-y threads. I don't mind which person is wrong or right, just take consideration for others into account and try to steer the other guy into PM's rather than a public flame war.

And I say this with the utmost respect - I like what is being discussed, and for once the complaints are minor or non-existant.

Shaqattaq
12-21-2013, 12:56 PM
Stop the insult derail. Thank you.

Gwaer
12-21-2013, 12:57 PM
A f2p player with zero interest in pvp will not bother buying plat. You said that PvE will have equipment drops, again, the PvE'er will just farm for it. Or they'll use the gold they get and buy it off the Gold AH. I'll assume that there will be some Packs on the Gold AH too, thus helping the f2p player not buy Plat.


Except we've been told PVE equipment will be the most chased and sought after gear in the game. And gold won't be so incredibly easy to come by. Do you not think many people won't skip spending time to farms tons of gold when they can just pay a plat for what they want?

jetah
12-21-2013, 02:36 PM
Except we've been told PVE equipment will be the most chased and sought after gear in the game. And gold won't be so incredibly easy to come by. Do you not think many people won't skip spending time to farms tons of gold when they can just pay a plat for what they want?

yes, i can see, however once you get the equipment and gems what do you buy?

Say you spend 200$ on getting packs and have at least 1 of every card + a few duplicates. You need gear and gems. You farm for that to see what you get then you check the gold AH. after checking that you check the Plat AH.

Gwaer
12-21-2013, 03:05 PM
Then you wait for the next dungeon set? You perhaps branch out into some draft play. There's tons of options. But the business model is convert some number of PVE players to casual PVP players. Not milk everyone for every dime.

Banquetto
12-21-2013, 03:19 PM
Except we've been told PVE equipment will be the most chased and sought after gear in the game. And gold won't be so incredibly easy to come by. Do you not think many people won't skip spending time to farms tons of gold when they can just pay a plat for what they want?

Some will. But if equipment is only usable in PvE, and only drops from PvE loot, then buying it for platinum could be a bit counterproductive - you'd be buying power in PvE while at the same time removing the purpose of PvE'ing!

Gwaer
12-21-2013, 03:23 PM
That's what people do in every PVE game that takes money... They skip the farming time and just stomp things. There will also be unlimited PVP. Where you can use champions and equipment.

Soldack
12-21-2013, 04:54 PM
Some will. But if equipment is only usable in PvE, and only drops from PvE loot, then buying it for platinum could be a bit counterproductive - you'd be buying power in PvE while at the same time removing the purpose of PvE'ing!

There is more reason to play PvE then just to farm equipment. Beating the dungeons and leveling your mercs is fun too. Playing raids with friends.... Creating new decks just to beat specific raid bosses...etc...

Handsofevil
12-21-2013, 05:32 PM
While I can't cite them, I've read numerous studies before about the F2P aspect while still offering paid options. They all say the same thing. Just because it's F2P doesn't mean people wont pay. What they have also found is that someone who is willing to pay money, will. Even if there isn't what they want, they will end up spending money on some aspect of the game.

Lets take a look at one of the best examples. League of Legends. There are two things money can buy, Champions and Skins. Not Champions can be unlocked through playing the game, it just takes times. But I know even I am guilty of buying a decent number of them. To me this is the same as cards, especially rare ones. I will earn some, and buy the rest. CZE could learn from Riot on the skins though. Skins can only be bought with the in-game equivalent of real money, and they are incredibly popular. Recently, the 'Snowdown Showdown' skins were released, and I have already seen dozens of people playing them. We're talking about around 10% of players buying these skins in the first day or two at about $7 a piece. Now League has 32 million monthly active players. That's almost 3millions skins sold, or $21million. Seems like a good idea to release some form of skins for HEX, whether it's keep skins, deck sleeves, or w/e.

Xenavire
12-21-2013, 08:26 PM
But hands, if players are putting all their money into packs, doesn't that make the economy more healthy with a good rate of turnover for packs and singles? And CZE would be earning that money anyway, and if the packs can come with rewards via chests, people will be incentivised to buy the packs anyway.

So that 10% will be buying packs at $2 a pop, probably buying more than 1 pack each due to the chasiness of rares, so lets assume an average of about 5 packs per person. Thats $10 a head for the F2P people, not counting the hardcore PvP players who will likely sink $50 or more each into packs and then another $10+ on plat for darfting fees...

CZE wont even need to monetise skins to turn a tidy profit. And I am making these estimates only off a launch day of a new set - being a TCG, fresh packs have a lot of value for drafting. So even if the smallest fraction of PvE players are buying packs after launch day, CZE will be pretty safe.

Just think about teasing new deck sleeves and AA just before the set launches, and everyone knows they only come out of legendary chests. The AH will be booming for the AA cards, and if sleeves are really BoP then the chase sleeves will generate a lot of packs...

I dunno, the argument that CZE should bleed people dry over sleeves doesn't fit here since they are basically doing that anyway, just in a much more user friendly way (you get value out of getting your special cosmetics.)

Handsofevil
12-21-2013, 09:05 PM
I'm not saying it's necessary, but it's another avenue for money. I'm not saying they should bleed them dry, but options isn't always a bad thing.

Xenavire
12-21-2013, 09:53 PM
While thats a valid point, customer loyalty is earnt through being fair. They would probably get as much money giving away sleeves now and then as they would by selling them (keeping in mind that sleeves would have to be cheaper than packs to be of approximately equal worth.)

The goodwill generated would attract more customers, and make existing ones happy, and happy are more likely to spend than unhappy ones. They have lots of potential tricks, but let them leave it until they are in a dire position, or until popular opinion sways them. Never a good idea to play your hand too early.

Tinuvas
12-22-2013, 12:12 AM
A f2p player with zero interest in pvp will not bother buying plat. You said that PvE will have equipment drops, again, the PvE'er will just farm for it. Or they'll use the gold they get and buy it off the Gold AH. I'll assume that there will be some Packs on the Gold AH too, thus helping the f2p player not buy Plat...
I think you misunderstand. There is no equipment in PvP (as a general rule). The only way to GET equipment is to farm it as you say. But much of the equipment will be for cards that aren't obtainable via straight farming as they are PvP cards obtainable only via AH. The commons, uncommons, and even rares will quite likely go for gold on the AH, but I'm fairly certain that CZE will create a balance where the chase cards from the chase equipment will not often be available for anything less than cold hard cash. Or mind boggling numbers of hours farming. You may find it worth your time to do the farming, but I am certain that many, many PvE only players will fork over large sums of money to short cut that unfun part of the game.

I'm not saying it's necessary, but it's another avenue for money. I'm not saying they should bleed them dry, but options isn't always a bad thing.
While I disagree with your statement (certain options, when presented, can be bad for business if the business model is built in a different way) I just want to say that I find it amusing that we are trying to come up with more ways for CZE to take our money. That's funny right there. I promise that CZE will have many perfectly reasonable ways to do so.

Also, by declaring sleeves as unbuyable (among other things) they can actually get MORE revenue out of them. It may 'force' the collectible to go to special sleeve-rewarded drafts or whatnot to get their piece. It may push up the number of people who buy in to a certain holiday tourney cycle to get that one-off shiny bit. Maybe the fact that you can't just buy your way to a complete set is what you're concerned about? :p

Jinxies
12-22-2013, 07:07 AM
I know I'd pay for keep cosmetic customization ^.^ I've bough 1-2 champions for LoL but I probably own 30-40 skins xD At one point I owned every skin for every support in the game :P

jetah
12-22-2013, 08:28 AM
Then you wait for the next dungeon set? You perhaps branch out into some draft play. There's tons of options. But the business model is convert some number of PVE players to casual PVP players. Not milk everyone for every dime.

Cosmetic items aren't milking people for cash. I picked up an iOS/Android game where you wait 10 minutes for 1 energy. After you gain 2 energy you can do pve. But you have the option of paying 50 Gems (Plat) to gain 20 energy. If you want to fight the Server boss more often, use Gems. Can't wait 10 minutes to PvP again, pay Gems. Can't wait till tomorrow for your PvP timer to reset, pay gems. The whole game is designed to nickle/dime you of of these Gems. Now you can pay for Gems or you can earn them free at a horrible rate per week.

When I spent 700$ in Rift, I wasn't being milked for cash. I knew I was buying cosmetic items, bank tabs,etc.

Gwaer
12-22-2013, 09:27 AM
But wouldn't it have been better to earn those skins and bank tabs? I personally think so. It's a very different kind of game. If the business model they described cannot sustain the game I am totally open to increasing the things in the cash shop but I think it'd be pretty amazing if everything was in-game earn able and not purchasable. If it were tradable that'd be even better. Buy things on the ah from other players. I'm not against it. I just think their current model is more interesting.

Xenavire
12-22-2013, 10:49 AM
It isn't about what we would find it acceptable to buy, it is about what they are willing to charge us for. They know the drain some F2P games put on bought resources (forcing you to buy gems, for example) and gating content etc.

They want to keep it simple. If they are forced to expand into other monetisation, they have avenues that don't force players to buy, but would still be desirable, but they don't have to offer that right now - and the value of cosmetic items may actually rise if they are rarer. Imagine those 'chase sleeves', being non-tradeable, suddenly available for a weekend in their store - people would go ballistic, tripping over themselves trying to buy it.

I don't think they should offer gameplay shortcuts, especially AA cards, in the store. I don't want someone just buying a playset of chase rares and making a great deck, bypassing the in-game economy. Imagine the worth of those chase cards, they would plummet if everyone can just go and buy playsets.

Grumph
12-22-2013, 02:44 PM
I don't think it should be thought of as CZE will only make money on packs/tournament fees as they are really only making money on the amount of plat that is sold. Having said that, plat will always be the preferred currency for trading/buying on the AH. While the value of every other asset(packs, gold, equipment, cards) will fluctuate, plat will always have a static value that is based on real wolrd currency. So PvE only players will have a good incentive to keep some on hand for trading purposes.

I personally would prefer that they keep the platinum sinks limited to packs and tournament fees as those alone should keep plat moving in and out of the games market at a decent pace. Having too much you can spend platinum in the store would in deflate the value of everything else in relation to platinum and make it harder to aquire in the player ran market

jetah
12-22-2013, 03:47 PM
But wouldn't it have been better to earn those skins and bank tabs? I personally think so. It's a very different kind of game. If the business model they described cannot sustain the game I am totally open to increasing the things in the cash shop but I think it'd be pretty amazing if everything was in-game earn able and not purchasable. If it were tradable that'd be even better. Buy things on the ah from other players. I'm not against it. I just think their current model is more interesting.

I don't like trying to earn things like bank tabs in game. I'd rather buy them then spend 50 hours trying to unlock them.
The problem about earnable in-game is that CZE doesn't gain a income from it. If you could pay for convenience, I'd accept that. I'd also believe that having everything in a cash shop being tradable would be fantastic too. This allows both spenders and f2p to exchange goods.


It isn't about what we would find it acceptable to buy, it is about what they are willing to charge us for. They know the drain some F2P games put on bought resources (forcing you to buy gems, for example) and gating content etc.

They want to keep it simple. If they are forced to expand into other monetisation, they have avenues that don't force players to buy, but would still be desirable, but they don't have to offer that right now - and the value of cosmetic items may actually rise if they are rarer. Imagine those 'chase sleeves', being non-tradeable, suddenly available for a weekend in their store - people would go ballistic, tripping over themselves trying to buy it.

I don't think they should offer gameplay shortcuts, especially AA cards, in the store. I don't want someone just buying a playset of chase rares and making a great deck, bypassing the in-game economy. Imagine the worth of those chase cards, they would plummet if everyone can just go and buy playsets.
I'll agree that the pricing is a huge factor. I'll give Neverwinter as an example. in Neverwinter they charge 40$ for 1 mount (Bind to Account). The biggest bag is in the cash shop for 10$ (bind to character). I haven't spent too much in Neverwinter after purchasing some support packs specifically because the prices are too high.

I wouldn't mind some exclusive gameplay cards/items. I wouldn't mind some cash shop AA that could be traded on the AH. With your example, someone could find a good netdeck and just buy the cards in the AH using Plat.

I don't mind some exclusive cash shop items. Sleeves-sure, AA-sure, Hero/Merc Skins-sure. So long as they are tradable.


I don't think it should be thought of as CZE will only make money on packs/tournament fees as they are really only making money on the amount of plat that is sold. Having said that, plat will always be the preferred currency for trading/buying on the AH. While the value of every other asset(packs, gold, equipment, cards) will fluctuate, plat will always have a static value that is based on real wolrd currency. So PvE only players will have a good incentive to keep some on hand for trading purposes.
I agree that CZE will make their money when a player buys Plat from CZE. But if a PvE'er doesn't have anything to spend that Plat on why buy it? A PvE'er will have items that could be sold on the AH for Plat (assuming that Plat isn't needed for a deposit) but what do they do with Plat?-Trade it for Gold; something they need for their Keep customization.

If a PvE'er could take that Plat they gained via AH sales and buy cosmetic items from a shop, it'd give them more incentive to farm more (or buy Plat from CZE).


I personally would prefer that they keep the platinum sinks limited to packs and tournament fees as those alone should keep plat moving in and out of the games market at a decent pace. Having too much you can spend platinum in the store would in deflate the value of everything else in relation to platinum and make it harder to acquire in the player ran market

I see this as an advantage to the PvP'er as they will earn some Plat via PvP play. I believe that both types of players will have to have both currencies. Gold for Keep stuff and Plat for tournaments/decks/AH. If there was a shop where Plat could be spent, then the value of items could be higher because the sell could buy stuff from the Shop. A sink should have more outs than ins (at least in my opinion).




I guess I can be arguing for arguing sake. If there is nothing I want to buy I will not buy Plat. I'll try some Tournaments once I know the game better. Until then, I'll be running dungeons/Raids for gear for myself and to sell.

Xenavire
12-22-2013, 05:25 PM
My point about AA cards is that having them ready to buy for PvP play will devalue any that come from packs, reducing the chasiness of each one that has an AA version. Add in the fact that it lowers the overall value of a pack (less chance at a real payoff) and then people will buy more AA cards and less boosters.

I mean if the AA Extinction, an AA Uruunaz, and an AA Tomb lord were all up for grabs in the cash shop, blood cards in boosters would have little to no value. I mean this is a complete exaggeration, but for every card that is sold in the shop as a single reduces the value of every other copy of that card (due to unlimited print). They aren't a consumable (except maybe in crafting, but no-one would buy cards in the cash shop for crafting) so they can stay in circulation indefinitely.

If they were available for limited periods of time it would lessen the impact, but considering the nature of AA cards they are better served being in-game rewards.

Sleeves, being non-tradable, and having no direct counterpart to devalue, would be fine in the cash shop. Not needed as of yet (aside from being in the alpha) but it is not something that will feel like we are being forced to buy. As long as the price is reasonable.

jetah
12-22-2013, 06:03 PM
My point about AA cards is that having them ready to buy for PvP play will devalue any that come from packs, reducing the chasiness of each one that has an AA version. Add in the fact that it lowers the overall value of a pack (less chance at a real payoff) and then people will buy more AA cards and less boosters.

I mean if the AA Extinction, an AA Uruunaz, and an AA Tomb lord were all up for grabs in the cash shop, blood cards in boosters would have little to no value. I mean this is a complete exaggeration, but for every card that is sold in the shop as a single reduces the value of every other copy of that card (due to unlimited print). They aren't a consumable (except maybe in crafting, but no-one would buy cards in the cash shop for crafting) so they can stay in circulation indefinitely.

If they were available for limited periods of time it would lessen the impact, but considering the nature of AA cards they are better served being in-game rewards.

Sleeves, being non-tradable, and having no direct counterpart to devalue, would be fine in the cash shop. Not needed as of yet (aside from being in the alpha) but it is not something that will feel like we are being forced to buy. As long as the price is reasonable.

Well there could be PvP exclusive AA where the player has to earn it. Same for PvE. Every card could have up to infinite AA. Of course not every one of those AA would be in a store but you could have a few exclusive store only AA. CZE could do AA that are Booster exclusive and AA Treasure Chest exclusive. If you want that AA Extinction and it's a Booster Exclusive, expect to open packs.

I can debate both sides of cash shops. I like having items that are exclusive to Raids, Dungeons, PvP, Tournaments, Achievements, etc. I would like to see exclusives for nearly everything, even Bind on Account (meaning no trading) options that you have to acquire. I could even see PvP equipment exclusives, much like what most MMO's have.

I'm only arguing about cash shop items because CZE needs multiple streams of income from HEX. I don't believe it can survive on only Tournaments Fee's, Booster Sales & VIP. But maybe I'm underestimating HEX.

Xenavire
12-22-2013, 07:11 PM
It isn't just the art though - to competetive players, it goes Usefulness>Rarity>Looks. When they can buy 2/3 of those criteria, and skipping the rarity one (generally used for trading or selling to get the powerful cards) they wont even try chasing normal versions of those cards, only completionists will.

It really is just going to make the game feel like it is pay to win having AA cards in the store, even if it is done with best of intentions.

Non-PvP cards (espeically event based cards like the recent Christmas reveal) as AA would be perfectly acceptable, since they were only meant for fun in the first place and won't let you just get ahead in any format for a small fee.

I am not against the idea in general, only in specific scenarios like making the game P2W or seeming to gate content with strong cards from the shop.

stiii
12-22-2013, 07:35 PM
Maybe you could pay to unlock AA for cards you already own?

I guess it might be a bit confusing, but it does at least deal with the selling cards directly problem

jetah
12-22-2013, 08:24 PM
It isn't just the art though - to competetive players, it goes Usefulness>Rarity>Looks. When they can buy 2/3 of those criteria, and skipping the rarity one (generally used for trading or selling to get the powerful cards) they wont even try chasing normal versions of those cards, only completionists will.

It really is just going to make the game feel like it is pay to win having AA cards in the store, even if it is done with best of intentions.

Non-PvP cards (espeically event based cards like the recent Christmas reveal) as AA would be perfectly acceptable, since they were only meant for fun in the first place and won't let you just get ahead in any format for a small fee.

I am not against the idea in general, only in specific scenarios like making the game P2W or seeming to gate content with strong cards from the shop.

AA would only be the artwork, not the actual card. I'd assume it's just a check as to which you want displayed. ie you could unlock AA for cards you don't own. But how is AA pay to win? unless you believed the card would be up in the shop with a different art.

As is TCG's are inherently p2w. You could drop <whatever amount> into Plat and buy the full collection of cards x4 & equipment & Gems from the AH using Plat. Then wait a few weeks to buy leveled cards via the same method.

I'm not speaking mostly about competitive players. Well I can see those that want world first. Yeah, I'm not speaking about those. Those types wont care about AA or cosmetic items in a Store. A competitive player will just buy the cards they need from the AH, using Plat, to run a deck.

sukebe
12-22-2013, 08:28 PM
You can "buy" the following items from CZE according to this article (http://hextcg.com/exclusives-treasure-and-mercenaries/):


Mercenaries
Equipment
Alternate Art Cards
Gold
Crafting Materials
PVP Cards
Pack of Cards!
Sleeves
And more…

These are the items that come from the treasure chests found in every booster pack of Hex. This is likely not as direct as you would like but believe me when I say that many PVE players will likely buy packs/treasure chests (either directly from CZE or from players) by the ton for this random chance to get the items above. Never underestimate the money making power of "Spin The Wheel and Get a Prize!" (or in this case "open this pack/chest, get a prize!"). I have played many other F2P games that offered Mystery Boxes or random grab bags and made huge amounts of sales. This is made even more appealing in Hex as you are getting a booster pack of cards at the very least (rather than in the other games I have played where the door prize was often terrible).

The treasure chest in the booster packs allows CZE to sell all of the items you want them to sell without straying from their promise to sell only Boosters, Starters, Tournament Entries, and Platinum. It also doubles the addictive rush of opening a booster by giving yet another random chance mystery box to open :) To top it all off (as if it wasnt already awesome enough) you can get convention only Mercenaries and AA cards if you open the boosters at the right time.

TL: DR - I have no doubt that PVE players will find plenty of reasons to buy PVP Booster packs from CZE.

Gwaer
12-22-2013, 08:31 PM
Buying the full set isn't buying wins however, your deck is still only as powerful as anyone elses well constructed deck. That's paying for convenience or options, not paying to win. If they made PVP cards you can only get by paying inordinate amounts of money, that were more powerful than other cards, that would be paying to win.

Also as it currently stands, when you get an AA you get a card with AA on it, not just an option to turn on with cards you already own.

sukebe
12-22-2013, 11:33 PM
Buying the full set isn't buying wins however, your deck is still only as powerful as anyone elses well constructed deck. That's paying for convenience or options, not paying to win. If they made PVP cards you can only get by paying inordinate amounts of money, that were more powerful than other cards, that would be paying to win.

Also as it currently stands, when you get an AA you get a card with AA on it, not just an option to turn on with cards you already own.

Agreed :) This game (as they have currently described it) is definately not pay to win. It is just like in MTG when a new player buys a bunch of singles and makes a popular (and powerful) net deck. They have the cards but the skill or experience to use the deck to its full potential so players with cheaper decks have a good chance to beat them

Xenavire
12-23-2013, 03:12 AM
Well buying full sets is a collector mentality. Buying powerful singles is a competetive/netdecker's mentality.

I think Hex would ultimately lose money on pack if they sold single AA cards (even if the AA was at an inflated price.) People tend to want to skip RNG and get exactly what they want, when they want it.

And thats why the AH will be the go-to place for singles. Besides, with the standard transaction fee that CZE gets from each sale on the AH, CZE has reason to leave the economy alone. Adding cards into the store lowers the value of other singles, which can slowly drive down the prices of lots of cards, meaning the sales on the AH net them less as well.

Jinxies
12-23-2013, 04:30 AM
I just want character(not deck) and keep customization and I feel like I'm more likely to get lots of that if it's monetized :)

Gwaer
12-23-2013, 11:05 AM
The way I see it the reason people want everything monetized is because they are used to monetized games grind times to try to encourage you to buy something instead. Like people said earlier they don't want to have to grind for months for bank slots when they can just pay a few dollars. The reason it's months of grinding to get the bank slot is because they want you to make that decision. Remove the money and you get much more reasonable goals to earn the pieces in game. So I say give them a chance on their implementation. They can always further monetize things later if it doesn't work out.

ossuary
12-23-2013, 12:48 PM
Exactly. It's refreshing for a company to have a plan to monetize their game WITHOUT nickel and diming you. I think it's worth trying out precisely the way CZE wants to do it for now... hopefully, it will work exactly as stated, and they will make a comfortable profit to support themselves and the game for a long time to come.

If they try it this way, and it doesn't bring in what they need to get by, then they can look at expanding to a few more options that are still worth having but not grindy or exploitative (like optional skins, keep customization, etc.). But I'm all in favor of starting simple and making a solid go of it.

Ertzi
12-23-2013, 03:55 PM
When I spent 700$ in Rift, I wasn't being milked for cash. I knew I was buying cosmetic items, bank tabs,etc.

I absolutely think having to buy bank tabs with real cash only is milking for cash. That is such a huge QoL improvement in my opinion. I always thought that GW2's implementation that you had to buy bag slots for every character separately was a bit of a FU as well. Time reduction boosts and cosmetic items do not bother me. Locking general gameplay and UI enhancements behind real cash does. I take my inventory space very seriously.

Ertzi
12-23-2013, 04:00 PM
I don't think they should offer gameplay shortcuts, especially AA cards, in the store. I don't want someone just buying a playset of chase rares and making a great deck, bypassing the in-game economy. Imagine the worth of those chase cards, they would plummet if everyone can just go and buy playsets.

I agree. I kinda like the idea of leveling up my cards to the AA versions and then selling them for profit. Gives a huge incentive to play different cards, which I love.

Grumph
12-23-2013, 09:25 PM
Time reduction boosts and cosmetic items do not bother me.

Not sure what you mean by time reduction boosts but if they were to introduce any kind of lockouts/timers on PvE or any content and offer cash shop items to clear the timers, I would probably lose any and all interest in this game immediately. I can't stand games that have these along with energy bars, action points or any other way to get you to spend a buck on playing for longer than 20 minutes. I can understand a company wanting to make money on their games but these kinds of systems are the worst way to go about it. I'm pretty sure they said in a video(angry joe interview maybe?) back during KS that they wouldn't be putting in any kind of lockouts or timers on dungeons/raids and hopefully they never consider going down that road as this is the absolute worst kind of nickel/dime mechanic.

sukebe
12-23-2013, 11:35 PM
Not sure what you mean by time reduction boosts but if they were to introduce any kind of lockouts/timers on PvE or any content and offer cash shop items to clear the timers, I would probably lose any and all interest in this game immediately. I can't stand games that have these along with energy bars, action points or any other way to get you to spend a buck on playing for longer than 20 minutes. I can understand a company wanting to make money on their games but these kinds of systems are the worst way to go about it. I'm pretty sure they said in a video(angry joe interview maybe?) back during KS that they wouldn't be putting in any kind of lockouts or timers on dungeons/raids and hopefully they never consider going down that road as this is the absolute worst kind of nickel/dime mechanic.

I believe Ertzi was talking about things like xp boosts or loot drop boosts. Can't say for sure if that is what he meant but it seems likely.

Eggtron
12-24-2013, 01:15 AM
I totally understand the desire for wishing to purchase more materials/cards/perks. Personally, the day I found out about Hex was the day I tried to back it...only to find out the KS was over. I bought the SB that day, and don't regret it one bit.

Do I wish I could have been one of the kickstarters? Absolutely, I think about it all the time. What CZE is doing though by refusing to budge on the KS perks is a good thing. I'm glad they're firm with what they've said. I'm tempted to buy another SB, I just don't know who I would get to play it :(

jetah
12-24-2013, 09:39 AM
I'm ok for Raid/Dungeon lockouts. Having played Rift/WoW, I can understand it. It does artificially extend the game (well pve part). It also helps curb bots from 24/7 farming gear/gold/cards (f2p, I know).

I have a feeling if CZE offered Supporter Packs, much like what Path of Exile has, those Slacker Backers would jump on board. I suspect a good number of KS backers would do the same. I would be 100% ok with all cosmetic rewards too.

mach
12-24-2013, 09:47 AM
I'm ok for Raid/Dungeon lockouts. Having played Rift/WoW, I can understand it. It does artificially extend the game (well pve part). It also helps curb bots from 24/7 farming gear/gold/cards (f2p, I know).


The difference is that in those games the PvE is competitive. By design, it won't be in Hex, so those kinds of things aren't necessary.

Lawlschool
12-24-2013, 10:37 AM
The difference is that in those games the PvE is competitive. By design, it won't be in Hex, so those kinds of things aren't necessary.

But it kinda will. I think they do want legit competitive PvE with world-firsts and stuff. Cory's even said that legendary equipment is going to be the chasiest stuff in the game. Even if it wasn't, lockouts do make sense for the economy, to prevent too much farming / botting. Though they've also said that Raids will be fairly difficult, so lockouts might not be necessary given the difficulty / time constraints.

jetah
12-24-2013, 10:49 AM
The difference is that in those games the PvE is competitive. By design, it won't be in Hex, so those kinds of things aren't necessary.

But HEX will be competitive with both PvE and PvP. So yes, HEX might have a type of lockout with Dungeon/Raid. people will brag about world first in HEX just like they do in WoW/Rift.

I can see HEX having Tournaments for PvP and Raids being ran much like how Blizzard has it for Blizzcon.

Gwaer
12-24-2013, 10:54 AM
They've said several times there will be no lockouts. Hopefully they stick to that. I'm not a fan of lockouts.

mach
12-24-2013, 10:59 AM
But it kinda will. I think they do want legit competitive PvE with world-firsts and stuff.

Nope. They eliminated this possibility when they decided to do functional PvE exclusives in the kickstarter rewards. One of the fundamentals of a competitive environment is a level playing field. Who wants to play a game competitively when some people have a permanent advantage over you?

It's not an accident that there weren't any PvP exclusives. That's because they do want that part of the game to be competitive.


Even if it wasn't, lockouts do make sense for the economy, to prevent too much farming / botting.

Bots can get around lockouts easily by using multiple accounts.

Lawlschool
12-24-2013, 04:26 PM
Nope. They eliminated this possibility when they decided to do functional PvE exclusives in the kickstarter rewards. One of the fundamentals of a competitive environment is a level playing field. Who wants to play a game competitively when some people have a permanent advantage over you?

It's not an accident that there weren't any PvP exclusives. That's because they do want that part of the game to be competitive.


Good point. Because of the Guild/Raid leader perks "World Firsts" probably won't be a thing. Though I did notice that the Raid Leader "extra card" perk says it's only for "non-tournament" raids, so it sounds like they do want to have some form of competitive PvE tournaments.

Zomnivore
12-24-2013, 05:21 PM
I personally think that there needs to be some form of way for them to directly get money out of the pve content, for them to really ever grow it at the kind of rates I'd like to see.

Some form of subscription add-on or just expansion packs....anything really to create a business incentive to directly invest in creating content there.

jetah
12-24-2013, 06:02 PM
I personally think that there needs to be come form of way for them to directly get money out of the pve content, for them to really ever grow it at the kind of rates I'd like to see.

Some form of subscription add-on or just expansion packs....anything really to create a business incentive to directly invest in creating content there.

There's the VIP but it only gives 1 booster per week + tournament. This isnt PvE but people may still do it because of the 1$ booster.

You bring up a point which I've been talking about this whole topic. PvE should have a type of income for HEX. We know we'll have keeps, why not sell some cosmetic items for it. This creates an income for HEX and PvE players have something, other than boosters, to spend cash on. I've suggested some other things too but I wont repeat all of them.

Gwaer
12-24-2013, 07:22 PM
The fact that PVE is totally free brings a huge amount of people to the table. Just a small percentage of them buying plat for any reason will do wonders. I hope they don't need to further monetize PVE. If they do. They can do it later. So instead of writing off their business model before it gets a fair shake lets give it a go. They could launch an entirely new way to run games in the future.

They can also have competitive PVE tournaments and events and just ban out cards that are exclusives.

Xtopher
12-24-2013, 07:28 PM
I personally think that there needs to be come form of way for them to directly get money out of the pve content, for them to really ever grow it at the kind of rates I'd like to see.

Some form of subscription add-on or just expansion packs....anything really to create a business incentive to directly invest in creating content there.
I've no doubt that's going to happen. CZE's three steps ahead of all of us on this issue, with all kinds of plans to encourage people to spend $$.

jetah
12-24-2013, 08:17 PM
The fact that PVE is totally free brings a huge amount of people to the table. Just a small percentage of them buying plat for any reason will do wonders. I hope they don't need to further monetize PVE. If they do. They can do it later. So instead of writing off their business model before it gets a fair shake lets give it a go. They could launch an entirely new way to run games in the future.

They can also have competitive PVE tournaments and events and just ban out cards that are exclusives.

Until CZE tells me what all they offer in terms of income from PvE, I'll continue to give suggestions on what I'm willing to pay for.

Gwaer
12-24-2013, 08:30 PM
The plan that they have reiterated time and again is that they don't expect to make money from PVE, but instead from the constant influx of new players that convert over to pvp.

PVP supports PVE, PVE brings in warm bodies to get into the tournament scene.

It's like if league of legends had a dungeon mode for all of the champions to go through and kill bosses and do storyline, but you hear all the time about the huge league tournaments, or you just want the challenge of playing against other people. so you get in on that action and buy into the PVP mode. Or how about a better analogy, of a drug dealer giving away free samples, PVE is the free sample, a full featured fun game, that draws in the players to support it by them switching to pvp, or just buying plat so they can buy things on the AH for plat. High level gear and whatnot.

I'm a bit skeptical about it myself, it has never been tried before. But I'm excited to try it. If it doesn't work out they can add monetized PVE things later.

Zomnivore
12-24-2013, 11:03 PM
If they don't have some way to create money by direct means...my fear is that that it will dribble out into a highly cost effective retention model...which isn't that cool.

PVE and the mmo aspect of the game should be an engaging thing and I think to keep it on the level of engaging as I'd like to see it set at...that you'd need some direct means of supporting it, outside of incidental plat/pvp card cross over.

Them buying into pvp cards and packs should be a bonus to cze imo.

hammer
12-24-2013, 11:09 PM
Do you guys know the revenue generated from Candy Crush ? It is free to play but people pay to clear content and progress. Just getting PVE players to buy equipment or cards on the auction house will fuel the hex economy without even needing to convert them to pvp or to directly monetise pve.

jetah
12-25-2013, 05:41 AM
Do you guys know the revenue generated from Candy Crush ? It is free to play but people pay to clear content and progress. Just getting PVE players to buy equipment or cards on the auction house will fuel the hex economy without even needing to convert them to pvp or to directly monetise pve.

but candy crush has a different payment model. I consider candy crush to be a pay to win type game. meaning you can pay for power to clear a map you couldn't or can't clear otherwise. It is much like the ccg I play on my iphone. these games are designed by milking cash from users.

the problem with equipment is we have limited slots (per hero but w/e). After a while, those slots are filled; then what? my opinion is that both sides of HEX should have an income, not one. I suspect that pvp players will support easily 10 to 30 pve players (meaning 1 person pays for 10-30 that don't). why not at least offer those 10-30 something they could desire/want. I listen to a listener supported radio station. They say that 1 person supports 20 listeners. I suspect a video game will have higher numbers.

mach
12-25-2013, 09:22 AM
What many of you are missing is just how expensive Hex will already be for players.

The traditional game model is that you buy the game for approximately the price of a Slacker Backer and that's it. You can play as much as you want. That initial $50 or so lasts you for a couple years until an expansion or the next game in the franchise comes out.

The newer F2P/P2W model is more similar, but the expected payment for these games is nowhere near the $7 it will cost you for a few hours of Limited play or the $50-100+ initial investment plus entry fees for Constructed play.

MTGO can get away with it because of redemption linking it to the physical game. But even with the physical game link, MTGO is not very popular as games go.

So what I'm saying is that with the current model Hex is already pushing the boundaries of what people are likely willing to pay. So it's vital that the PvE side remain completely free.

You shouldn't be looking for ways to make the game more expensive. You should be looking for ways to make the game cheaper so you can get a bigger playerbase.

jetah
12-25-2013, 03:03 PM
@mach--You dont understand how much people are willing to spend if said items/perks are valuable in their eyes. I'll give Path of Exile as an example as well as how much I've spend in games.

PoE offered a few support packs varying in price from 50$ to 12k$-yes, 12,000$. at the 12k mark you were able to crate a new monster for the game (restrictions; i'm sure). There are people who bought that. I've personally spent 270$ with PoE. I plan on buying the current Supporter Pack, Conqueror Pack listed at 900$; why, because I love the looks of the Portal effects.

In Forsaken World I've spent over 700$. In Rift I've spend close to 800$. Eve Online is around 300$. WoW around 500$ (excluding sub), HEX 1k$.



Companies are switching to F2P because it allows people to try the game before spending anything. The gamer base is realizing that spending 15$ per month when they play less than 4 hours is wasting their money. Companies see that F2P games can earn well over what their Sub counterparts can make. However with F2P you have to have great expansions to retain players which buy things.

I can't see where PvP players can sustain the whole PvE content. I will say that when CZE decides to put 50k$ up for Tournament Prizes then some people will start to think twice about PvP.

I can't tell how much was spent in Rift for the Housing Contest, a contest not started by the developers but by players.

Gwaer
12-25-2013, 03:28 PM
The Poe business model is interesting it performs well for what it is. However it doesn't have a game mode that requires spending money already. You're basically asking people that want to PVP and PVE pay twice.

This is a really interesting business model. Trying to change it to another business model before giving it a fair shake just seems very short sighted.

mach
12-25-2013, 04:41 PM
@mach--You dont understand how much people are willing to spend if said items/perks are valuable in their eyes. I'll give Path of Exile as an example as well as how much I've spend in games.

PoE offered a few support packs varying in price from 50$ to 12k$-yes, 12,000$. at the 12k mark you were able to crate a new monster for the game (restrictions; i'm sure). There are people who bought that. I've personally spent 270$ with PoE. I plan on buying the current Supporter Pack, Conqueror Pack listed at 900$; why, because I love the looks of the Portal effects.

In Forsaken World I've spent over 700$. In Rift I've spend close to 800$. Eve Online is around 300$. WoW around 500$ (excluding sub), HEX 1k$.


I understand that there are players willing to spend a lot. These players are a great source of revenue, but aren't enough to make the queues fire regularly. Think of how the Alpha was after the first wave of invites.

Without a large enough number of players online at any given time, queues don't fire and the game enters death spiral mode.

The biggest internal risk to Hex after the game is finished and launched is not that the current revenue sources won't be enough for CZE to turn a profit. It's that not enough players will be willing to pay enough to play a reasonable amount.



The gamer base is realizing that spending 15$ per month when they play less than 4 hours is wasting their money.

Exactly. However, keep in mind that $15 for 4 hours of play is approximately what you will get if you do 2 drafts in Hex. Convincing enough players — not the big spenders, but the normal gamer — that this isn't a waste of money is going to be a big challenge for CZE post-launch.

jetah
12-25-2013, 08:37 PM
The Poe business model is interesting it performs well for what it is. However it doesn't have a game mode that requires spending money already. You're basically asking people that want to PVP and PVE pay twice.

This is a really interesting business model. Trying to change it to another business model before giving it a fair shake just seems very short sighted.

PvP has to pay to play. PvE, while maintaining the free to play aspect, should have great optional purchasable content. PvE players act as though they are a snowflake (yeah I hate this reference) and want to look different than other character of the same Race. This way CZE has income with both sides of HEX. Otherwise, a PvE player will complete the story mode, then decide if further playing is interesting.

What about those PvE players which try Draft and decide it isn't for them. They'd rather play the PvE content. There should be something shiny they can optionally buy.



I guess my point is don't put off the PvE side from any potential income.

@mach
PvE players wont help the PvP queue's much like the PvP queue's wont help the Raid queue's. I know people will be happy they won't have to pug just to do a dungeon. Also a player which tried PvP and doesn't like won't help the queue's either. Then you lost any income (save for the VIP).

Gwaer
12-25-2013, 09:52 PM
PVE players will help with the PVP queue because even if they play one or two drafts and decide they don't like it being completely f2p brings in millions of people that shrug their shoulders and say meh lets give it a shot.

You're not giving enough weight to the sheer numbers of bodies that it can bring. Likewise the people who like PVE and want to play only PVE and try PVP and hate it will still want gear that will be easier to get with plat. Which they will buy from CZE, infusing cash into their pockets and plat into the marketplace. People who aren't interested in gear and treasure chest loot and whatnot are just as likely not to be interested in the cosmetic things you're talking about. So why isn't it just better that everything you want to be able to buy you can just earn through playing PVE for very reasonable amount of times. Since they don't have to support the model by making them obscenely hard to get so people just decide to pay.

Zarien
12-26-2013, 10:52 PM
I think no matter how all of this plays out, it's going to be really interesting to see how the PvP and the PvE audiences interact with each other. I'm one of the ones that will be playing primarily PvP, and when I don't want to spend money, or i'm in a set release lull, i'll be actively playing PvE and the messing with the Keep system.

I'll be curious though to see if that type of interaction remains true for most people, or if instead, the two parties play mostly separately, with your few oddballs that like to delve into both when they can.

Ertzi
12-27-2013, 04:03 PM
Not sure what you mean by time reduction boosts but if they were to introduce any kind of lockouts/timers on PvE or any content and offer cash shop items to clear the timers, I would probably lose any and all interest in this game immediately. I can't stand games that have these along with energy bars, action points or any other way to get you to spend a buck on playing for longer than 20 minutes. I can understand a company wanting to make money on their games but these kinds of systems are the worst way to go about it. I'm pretty sure they said in a video(angry joe interview maybe?) back during KS that they wouldn't be putting in any kind of lockouts or timers on dungeons/raids and hopefully they never consider going down that road as this is the absolute worst kind of nickel/dime mechanic.

Sorry, my wording could have been more accurate. No, no, no, I only meant general convenience things that one could buy to advance more quickly. As long as you can advance at a slower pace without paying anything, I wouldn't mind those. I'm not in a hurry. I didn't even know there was such a thing as dungeon lockout timers. I'm actually with you there, those would drive my away from the game probably. Horrible concept, as I am not a power-farmer or raider. I need to be able to play any dungeon I want as many times I want.

jetah
12-27-2013, 05:10 PM
Horrible concept, as I am not a power-farmer or raider. I need to be able to play any dungeon I want as many times I want.

the problem with that is the gold farmers want that too.

Ertzi
12-28-2013, 04:50 AM
the problem with that is the gold farmers want that too.

Sure, but I don't think the game should be designed to counter gold farmers at the cost of making the game less fun for genuine players. I mean, just don't buy gold with real cash. Part of the fun for me will be to slowly gather my resources and equipment by playing the game. If someone wants to ruin that fun for themselves by buying all that stuff with real cash, let them. Granted, I have no idea how an economy works in an MMO, so gold farmers might be a big problem, but I just don't want some shady characters dampen my enjoyment of the game.

elsimer
12-28-2013, 09:02 AM
the problem with that is the gold farmers want that too.

I seem to recall a question during the Kickstarter on lockout timers, with Cory saying there would be none. I could be mistaken and would have to look. Maybe it was the initial twitch stream?

Tinuvas
12-28-2013, 10:00 AM
I seem to recall a question during the Kickstarter on lockout timers, with Cory saying there would be none. I could be mistaken and would have to look. Maybe it was the initial twitch stream?

I do too. *sigh* I miss Shadowelf.

hammer
12-28-2013, 10:39 AM
I do too. *sigh* I miss Shadowelf.

Lockout timers were discussed in the Dragoncon PVP panel - audio available on hexvault.com

It is near the end as was a question from the audience.

http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/08/31/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pvp-design-panel/