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View Full Version : The "Permanent" mechanic



Trebbinz
12-21-2013, 09:48 AM
Is it bugged or simply counter intuitive ?

I came across 2 different scenario today and it left me confused:

1) My opponent use Lyonel Flint's ability to give +3/+0 permanent to his Emberspire Witch. It is now 5/2 swiftstrike. I cast Mimic and Target his Emberspire Witch. My witch is only 2/2... ? Why ?

2) My opponent has a Righteous Paladin and gains multiple times life. His paladin is now 10/10. I cast Extinction to kill it. I then cast Relentless Corruption and I draw my opponent's Call the Grave. I Cast Call the Grave on his 10/10 Righteous Paladin in his graveyard. Now the paladin is 2/2 in my hand... wtf just happened ?


If it's bugged, fine, I have no problem to understand it will get fixed eventually. But if it's not. I don't get why I don't get to copy Permanent abilities with my Mimic: I put a COPY of the troop on the field. It's not counters, auras or equipment like in MTG, the card has changed and I make a copy of it. As for the Righteous Paladin, why would he lose his permanent bonus if he change player contro ? it doesn't make sense!

I don't mind the Permanent // Revert mechanic compared to Auras // counters in MTG. But it should be much more clear on how it actually works.


P.S. Could I kill Ozawa, Cosmic Elder if I revert it ? This guy should be */* instead of +X/+X. Same goes for the Pact Raptor.

havocattack
12-21-2013, 09:54 AM
Bugs, well with mimic they are undecided if they want the creature to copy exactly or not (last I heard anyway)

Xenavire
12-21-2013, 09:58 AM
There are a lot of bugs with permanency. And mimic should do just what it says, or they need to say 'Copy, then revert target troop and then put it into play under your control.'

So unless the text is changed, consider Mimic also a bug.

FlyingMeatchip
12-21-2013, 07:49 PM
Even if you rvert ozawa, its power/def is the players life total.

ErnieK
12-21-2013, 08:47 PM
I believe that is correct. You'd have to revert something that says "When this card comes into play, give it X/X"... I am basing this off of how it interacts with Honeycaps. Feel free to contradict me on that, though.

Trebbinz
12-22-2013, 07:09 AM
I played against someone who once rez'd his Ozawa and played it again. Ozawa was 56/56 while the player had something like 20 so life.

HyenaNipples
12-22-2013, 08:27 AM
Since Ozawa is always X/X = to life total, revert shouldn't have any effect on his natural state. A rez'ed Ozawa stacking on itself sounds like a bug though.

Jyndreytu
12-22-2013, 09:13 AM
I think a lot of situations like these will be cleared up once we get comprehensive rules, which is something I am very anxious for, and I believe CZE is working on. I do agree cards with permanent changes should be taken into consideration when you copy them, but maybe the copy mechanic is intended to revert.

Trebbinz
12-22-2013, 12:09 PM
Since Ozawa is always X/X = to life total, revert shouldn't have any effect on his natural state. A rez'ed Ozawa stacking on itself sounds like a bug though.


Ozawa's text is +X/+X while his atk/def is 0/0, if you look carefully. At least it is in the card manager.

HyenaNipples
12-22-2013, 12:12 PM
Ozawa's text is +X/+X while his atk/def is 0/0, if you look carefully. At least it is in the card manager.

Exactly. If you revert him to 0/0, he instantly gets +x/+x again because you still have life. This is evident by how Ozawa instantly gains the boost when he hits the table, otherwise he would instantly die from 0 defense.

Eierdotter
12-22-2013, 02:49 PM
Mimic:
copies target troop, not clear if permanent buffs should be includd (i guess not) but i think gems should be copied with it .

Stealing a Troop:
this should give you the exact troop, currently you get a vanilla version (aka a reverted one) this is currently a bug

Ozawa:
he is a 0/0 with +X/+X equal to the controlers life, this is a permanent effect like the swiftstrike on the emberspire witch. honeycap for instance has stated clearly it gets +X/+x on enter play. ozawa was bugged before to get his effect several times when bounces, aka him getting +2*X/+2*X when cast the 2nd time. currently it works as intended as far as i am aware of.

BlackRoger
12-22-2013, 02:51 PM
Exactly. If you revert him to 0/0, he instantly gets +x/+x again because you still have life. This is evident by how Ozawa instantly gains the boost when he hits the table, otherwise he would instantly die from 0 defense.

Sounds like the problem is he doesn't lose his attack/power when going to the graveyard, which means that when he comes back he gets +X/+X once more, raising him to above your health levels.

Edit: Eierdotter - I find it hard to believe thats the intended behaviour, if it was supposed to increase each time ozawa is played then it should be an "On enter" ability that happens once, and doesn't update its health each time your life total changes.
Since the +X/+X is constantly matching itself to your hp as long as Ozawa is in play, it should either revert to 0/0 on leaving play, or update its attack/def to match your hp the moment he is replayed.
Any other behaviour will be pretty confusing

HyenaNipples
12-23-2013, 07:39 AM
Since the +X/+X is constantly matching itself to your hp as long as Ozawa is in play, it should either revert to 0/0 on leaving play, or update its attack/def to match your hp the moment he is replayed.

The latter is how I figured he should be working.

noragar
12-23-2013, 08:09 AM
Since the +X/+X is constantly matching itself to your hp as long as Ozawa is in play, it should either revert to 0/0 on leaving play, or update its attack/def to match your hp the moment he is replayed.


If Ozawa has other buffs, I think those should also be retained. For example, say your life total is at 20. Ozawa comes in to play as a 20/20. Then he gets a Root Dancer +2/+2 buff to go to 22/22. If he dies, I would expect him to be a 2/2 in the graveyard (though with the current card set, I can't think of anything that would be affected if he sat there as a 22/22 instead of a 2/2).

If he comes back and your life total is now 15, he would come back as a 17/17 (or 19/19 if he came back through Resurrection and got its +2/+2 buff).

Freebird_Falcon
12-23-2013, 01:51 PM
(I think) Copy effects should include permanent changes as well as gems; anything that is inherently a part of the creature. Think of it as an augmentation to the creature itself vs a magical aura effecting it, you can copy the augmented creature but not the aura the wizard (or inspiring troops, etc) is maintaining around it.

Otherwise, copy effects are significantly less desirable especially as late game draws