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YourOpponent
12-25-2013, 09:33 AM
So recently Sol Forge came out with a face meltingly awesome idea for how they do their tournaments. What they done is they pretty much eliminated the waiting period between rounds of a tournament. How they decided to do that was by putting a player against another player that is 1-1 or whatever in the tournament from a different tournament.

I was wondering what the community feels about that idea and whether or not this could be incorporated into some of the tournaments.


Pros: You can just start your next tournament round whenever you just finished one (after hitting a ready button of course so that you can add/remove cards from your side deck.

This could also leave the possibility to have a tournament be so that you can just do one round of it....stop...and then resume the tournament a few hours later.

Cons: In a booster draft tournament you wouldn't be able to get a "reading" on what your opponents are drawing for. (Since you would likely not be facing the people that drafted with you)


Thoughts and opinions? Personally I see no harm in doing this for Constructed tournaments (unless it's something like World Champions of course where it could just be done in a more traditional way.) For 8 man draft I think it's a bad idea, but larger draft tournaments it could help help make things more enjoyable.

Lawlschool
12-25-2013, 09:59 AM
So how do you "win" a tournament? Not having to wait between matches is nice, but playing against people from a different tournament pool seems to be pretty counterintuitive to how tournaments work.

A better idea imo would be to let you queue for PvP tournaments while you play PvE, and once your match was over you'd go right back to PvE while you wait.

Yubar
12-25-2013, 10:30 AM
I've heard this idea alot actually, a global tournament que does sound awesome and if theres 3 games to play in an elimination 8 man, you'll win by winning three times in a row, and get a second place prize for 2 wins etc. I like this for constructed and like the PVE/Deck editing screen for Draft.

escapeRoute
12-25-2013, 11:15 AM
So how do you "win" a tournament? Not having to wait between matches is nice, but playing against people from a different tournament pool seems to be pretty counterintuitive to how tournaments work.

A better idea imo would be to let you queue for PvP tournaments while you play PvE, and once your match was over you'd go right back to PvE while you wait.

u dont cause its not a tournament anymore... thats the problem

Gwaer
12-25-2013, 11:29 AM
It's fine for constructed. It's a best of 3 tournament vs the entire pool. Heck, just have it be first game you're against anyone 0-0 if you win you're against anyone 1-0 if you win again you're against anyone 2-0 if you win you have won.

If you lose at anytime you requeue, and start again.
Wont work for draft but it's fine otherwise.

YourOpponent
12-25-2013, 11:50 AM
I've heard this idea alot actually, a global tournament que does sound awesome and if theres 3 games to play in an elimination 8 man, you'll win by winning three times in a row, and get a second place prize for 2 wins etc. I like this for constructed and like the PVE/Deck editing screen for Draft.

Yes. It works exactly that way :)

escapeRoute
12-25-2013, 12:35 PM
yeah but that is not a tournament, at all... call it something else... but it isnt a tournament at all XD

im not strictly against it, im against it as a torunament queue... its not, a tournament is something that proves that u are better than all the guys who joined that tournament... that is just a free for all rush where no winners are choosen, only prizes... wich can do, but its a different thing

Yubar
12-25-2013, 12:43 PM
Lets not get stuck on the word here. It is something of an open tournament. You can do closed tournaments with your guildies and for major events, so I really see no downsides with this as the main tournament feature, for constructed...

Gwaer
12-25-2013, 12:43 PM
It is a tournament. It's exactly like a tournament in all respects. Everyone queues, you win 3 games vs different opponents. Your second game is vs someone who has one their previous game and your third game is vs someone who has won 2 previous games. It's almost exactly similar. There are minor differences I grant you that. But saying it is nothing like a tournament is pretty out there.

escapeRoute
12-25-2013, 01:05 PM
It is a tournament. It's exactly like a tournament in all respects. Everyone queues, you win 3 games vs different opponents. Your second game is vs someone who has one their previous game and your third game is vs someone who has won 2 previous games. It's almost exactly similar. There are minor differences I grant you that. But saying it is nothing like a tournament is pretty out there.

no, its a swiss league

as i said i could be ok with that, it could please the casual crowd and i would join it too once in a while... but it shouldnt be instead of toruaments...

Yubar
12-25-2013, 01:06 PM
Swiss tournament* and its not bc this would be elmination

Gwaer
12-25-2013, 01:21 PM
A swiss league or tournament would be a set number of rounds, you get one point per win, but losses don't eliminate you. The other participants scores don't matter until the end and highest aggregate points win. This is nothing like what is described.

Each win advances you to the next stage of the tournament where you compete with people who already have won the same number, This asynchronous tournament also gives you the added bonus of being able to set whatever number of wins for the grand prize as you like. Replicating what is already in existence in hex, the single elimination 8 man tournament, that is just 3 wins, but you can go up to 4, 5, 6. Whatever you want the cutoff to be to replicate larger single elimination tournaments. You could even set up a double elimination style tournament pretty easily. You could give blanket prizes for people that go x number of wins, and x-1, x-2 get reduced prizes to simulate top 3 rewards.

While Each loss knocks you out of the tournament and forces you to start again.

It's a very clever analogue to standard tournament play, that is honestly just superior in every way. Except it wouldn't be very easy to do in meatspace.

You could simulate a swiss tournament with this format as well, but it wouldn't work as cleanly. Swiss is more dependent on pools to find a winner out of aggregate points... You could just be seeded into an initial pod, and keep track of those people. However the winners of the first round if they move on to matches outside of the pod could very easily tie. It's really not a very good system to use for swiss tournaments =/

Xenavire
12-25-2013, 02:16 PM
I would prefer a seperate queue for this, if it was implemented. I like to see who I am against for the whole tournament - even if in 99% of them I know nobody. A while back I managed to queue in with someone I recognised from the forums, Storm_Fireblade, and I was quite happy to get a chance to play against him. Especially since I saw how good he was while playing the whole way through - I went 2-0 in all my matches to the last round, then I faced him, and got utterly thrashed. And weirdly, it felt like an accomplishment.

I would hate to give up that feeling of accomplishment and make tournaments more anonymous. So seperate queues would be great. And because it wouldn't work in draft, having it change between draft and constructed could confuse people, so labelling it something different would be nice and clear. As it is basically a mini-league or mini-ladder, call it something like an arena, the pit, the battlefield, etc. Or even Gladiators would have a nice ring to it.

Besides, more sanctioned competetive modes allows for more freedom in how people play. The new mode might even have options to go a single round, no reserves/sideboard. The options it opens up while keeping the old style makes it seem like an intersting idea.


Aslo, I would like to point out that not every tournament will be elimination in the future - they may implement round robin and they have confirmed swiss draft. And I am sure I am missing some, and awesome fun modes could be mixed in like ironman.

Yubar
12-25-2013, 02:43 PM
Scheduled swiss while very long, are fine, but as Gwear said, this would be far more superior as a type of anytime, casual, jump in and play. You could even leave que with 2 wins and jump back in for your last match whenever you want (maybe they will be a time limit but you get the point).

Adding too many different types of tourneys at once would dilute participation in each type, and I for one think this pooled elimination style would ultimately win out anyway.

That one off, rare sense of pride you speak of would be replaced with a world leader board which would display who has the most tourney wins (3 wins in a row) that day, week, month, all time, whatever. You could see your name in the top 50 for everyone's awe. This also would cut down on potential abuse if there are prizes for say the top 10% of players, since match-up would be random.

Yoss
12-25-2013, 03:52 PM
to OP:

This idea has been suggested several times already, though it's the first I've heard that Sol Forge is doing it. I agree that asynchronous tournament structure would be awesome. Just play when you want and if you win three in a row then you won "the tournament" and get the appropriate packs just like you would in a closed bracket tournament. If you lose your 3rd game then you get paid as if you were 2nd place. Presumably if you lose before the 3rd match then you'd just be eliminated with no prizes.

Handsofevil
12-25-2013, 09:06 PM
I think too many people are looking at this as "it's not a tournament because it's not predefined." But when you queue up for the current tournament system, you aren't looking at specific players just the ones who queued up at the same time. Honestly, this is NO DIFFERENT than the current tournament system. The only difference is the original brackets aren't decided but get made on the go. The current system is Bo3, single elimination consisting of 8 players. Right now those players are decided at the start. But why? In a queued, constructed tournament, why does it matter who you are facing against? The point is you are joining a random group of people to see who can get 3 wins in a row.

I would like to disagree with having it separate from more standard constructed queues, for one reason. Why does it matter? If you are looking for a predefined set of 8 people that play up, then create a custom one where you choose who is in it.

I think Gwaer has it correct, in that this could be easily implemented to allow for any number of wins and even double elimination (or more?!?!).

All this being said, I saw someone mention Drafts in relation to this. I couldn't understand what was intended, but I wanted to make this clear. This could not work with Draft, at all. The point of Draft is being able to pull good cards away from someone else along with making your own deck.

Edit: Grammar and word choice because I wrote this while my girlfriend was talking. Good thing she doesn't read the forums.

Lawlschool
12-25-2013, 10:51 PM
Thanks Hands, I think you cleared up the misgivings I had about this system. It seems weird, but I think the only reason I feel it's weird is because it's not "normal."

Cory_Jones
12-26-2013, 12:29 AM
We actually have a different take on this called the "marathon"
I think everyone will really like it

It's a timed tournament (from 4 to 12 hours) play as much as you like, but no official rounds

Wins give you points in the event, losses take away points at the end of the time your score determins your ranking for prizes

But let me also say that we are looking at styled of play that count losses and wins not unlike the stuff you are seeing in other games, I think in the end we will have our own take on it, expect us to redefine it to be more "HEX". :)

Handsofevil
12-26-2013, 12:32 AM
As always, thank you Cory!! It means a lot to the community that you take the time to stop by and give us some awesome info, even if it's vague. Do remember we all (well, most of us) know you guys have wonderful ideas and are constantly thinking of ways to improve HEX. We just like to brainstorm just as much ^_^ only you get paid for it :(.

YourOpponent
12-26-2013, 09:50 PM
We actually have a different take on this called the "marathon"
I think everyone will really like it

It's a timed tournament (from 4 to 12 hours) play as much as you like, but no official rounds

Wins give you points in the event, losses take away points at the end of the time your score determins your ranking for prizes

But let me also say that we are looking at styled of play that count losses and wins not unlike the stuff you are seeing in other games, I think in the end we will have our own take on it, expect us to redefine it to be more "HEX". :)

Oh cool! So kind of like Gunslinger from Yu-Gi-Oh Online then!!

wutae
12-27-2013, 02:49 AM
the problem Cory is what happens with players that want to join tournament style "events" but they dont have 3 hours on their desposal? Both Solforge and Hearthstone found a solution for that, by the asynchronous tournaments(Arenas),

On the other hand, they didnt bother to include normal tournaments that Hex will provide, IMO there should be both options, even if that will result on higher queues.

Yubar
12-27-2013, 08:45 AM
I agree, while marathon is a cool idea. A pick up and play global tournament, where I can leave and come back and finish my tournament where it left off is so convenient and takes full advantage of the online interface

Gwaer
12-27-2013, 10:03 AM
They've hinted at a game mode for people that don't have time for a full tournament that is the brain child of Dan Clark. I don't think anyone knows the details yet. But we will have something.

DackFayden
12-27-2013, 07:00 PM
Awesome idea for global tournament.:
+Great for constructed.
-Terrible for limited (card pool thing discussed before)

I see no problems with have a global pool for constructed tournaments

aatttt
12-28-2013, 06:59 AM
yeah!

+1 for global constructed torunament pool.

Very good idea

Yoss
01-01-2014, 10:29 AM
We actually have a different take on this called the "marathon"
I think everyone will really like it

It's a timed tournament (from 4 to 12 hours) play as much as you like, but no official rounds

Wins give you points in the event, losses take away points at the end of the time your score determins your ranking for prizes

But let me also say that we are looking at styled of play that count losses and wins not unlike the stuff you are seeing in other games, I think in the end we will have our own take on it, expect us to redefine it to be more "HEX". :)

Cool idea, but it does not cover the desire for a flexible play schedule. If anything, it's WORSE from a time commitment standpoint. Instead of ~3 hours for a tournament, now it's 4 to 12 hours?!!?

Constructed and Sealed should both use pooling/asynchronous matchmaking. Read Handsofevil's post about it.

DocX
01-03-2014, 07:32 AM
We actually have a different take on this called the "marathon"
I think everyone will really like it

It's a timed tournament (from 4 to 12 hours) play as much as you like, but no official rounds

Wins give you points in the event, losses take away points at the end of the time your score determins your ranking for prizes

But let me also say that we are looking at styled of play that count losses and wins not unlike the stuff you are seeing in other games, I think in the end we will have our own take on it, expect us to redefine it to be more "HEX". :)

Sounds like something I proposed to Erik Mock many years ago to address tournament length and the issue of game stalling with WoW TCG. Very interesting to see it resurface here given some of the real-life logistical issues that I had with the original idea. I look forward to seeing how that idea has evolved inside the minds of the mad geniuses at CZE :-)