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Avaian
12-29-2013, 03:13 PM
This is simply a comparison between two decks to satiate my curiosity. One of these decks work significantly better than the other and I am curious which one people will choose.

Deck 1 (Champion - Monika'shin)

11 Wild Shard
13 Blood Shard
4 Charge Bot
4 Blood Bearer
4 Ritualist of the Spring Litter
4 Hop'hiro Samurai
4 Shin'hare High Born
4 Wretched Brood
4 Shin'hare Eulogist
4 Necessary Sacrifice
4 Onslaught

Deck 2 (Champion - Monika'shin)

12 Wild Shard
12 Blood Shard
4 Blood Bearer
4 Ritualist of the Spring Litter
4 Hop'hiro Samurai
4 Shin'hare Highborn
4 Shin'hare Eulogist
4 Wretched Brood
4 Bucktooth Commander
4 Necessary Sacrifice
4 Onslaught

Edit: Forgot to add two questions.

Which deck works better?
Why does the other deck not work as well?

Lawlschool
12-29-2013, 03:29 PM
The major difference is one has Charge Bot and one has Bucktooth. Charge Bot will fuel more Hoppers for sac abilities (and is a solid sac target / chump blocker), while Bucktooth will pump your troops a bit. If you're focused on saccing for Hophiro and Eulogist, I'd prefer Deck 1. If you're looking to swarm and overrun, I'd prefer Deck 2. Also, given that most cards are Blood, the first deck has a more favorable ratio. Both seem like solid starting points, but you'll probably want to tweak the decks and change the card ratios / add in some other support cards.

Avaian
12-29-2013, 03:51 PM
The major difference is one has Charge Bot and one has Bucktooth. Charge Bot will fuel more Hoppers for sac abilities (and is a solid sac target / chump blocker), while Bucktooth will pump your troops a bit. If you're focused on saccing for Hophiro and Eulogist, I'd prefer Deck 1. If you're looking to swarm and overrun, I'd prefer Deck 2. Also, given that most cards are Blood, the first deck has a more favorable ratio. Both seem like solid starting points, but you'll probably want to tweak the decks and change the card ratios / add in some other support cards.

Sorry about that. Not looking for how to change the decks, they are set up like that for a reason. I am curious if people can spot which deck works better and why the other deck does not seem to work as well.

Side-note : I do know the reasons and may post them and any new reasons discovered later. But I want people to find them and think about how this same thing may happen with their decks.

Lawlschool
12-29-2013, 04:38 PM
"Significantly better" in what sense? (Not looking for specifics, just what your criteria is). Are you playing against other people, or just the AI? How many games have you played? Does one "win" more, or is it because the first has a more favorable resource distribution leading to less problems with threshold? Deck 1 seems to have a better curve and less threshold conflicts, so I'm favoring deck 1 over deck 2.

VeScorp
12-30-2013, 01:29 AM
The question is weird and the TS is weird

But the first deck IS better because of the shard distribution

Anyway, both of the decks are good enough mainly because they lack blood cauldron ritualist (and they need a few more tweaks, whatever...)

funktion
12-30-2013, 04:04 AM
I don't get why you're stuck using these two variations. Onslaught is the card most likely to win you the game and in neither deck are you running enough wild shards.

VeScorp
12-30-2013, 04:08 AM
I don't get why you're stuck using these two variations. Onslaught is the card most likely to win you the game and in neither deck are you running enough wild shards.

And playing 4x onslaught seems really weird, cause you rarely want to see more than 1 per game and im sure you dont want to see it on starting hand

Too many questions, and I don't even know if I want to know the answers

kurtkatt
12-30-2013, 06:04 AM
deck 1 has better mana curve and better shard distribution. it should perform better because of those two factors unless its built wrongly at core :P, which takes us to deck 2. this deck has better good draws, but should have more variance in performances due to color screw and missing curvedrops. what it has tho is more pressure in the commander, being less reliant on overrun and hiphopper adds a not insignificant dimension to deck 2. this is obviously mostly speculation since i havent tried any versions of shinhare decks at all

Avaian
12-30-2013, 06:46 AM
This is not about changing the decks to best fit your play-style or to optimize the decks.

The idea was to compare the two decks which had very minor differences, spot which is better and why it is better than the other.

In this situation Deck 1 is considerably better than deck 2. No matter how many games you play as long as you play enough to get an idea of how the two decks preform, you will end up winning more games with deck 1 than deck 2.

The reasons for this has been mentioned and is because of the thresholds. Specifically the problem lies with Bucktooth Commander which was really the only different card.

In deeper explanation, if you are playing deck 2 you will end up in situations where you need 1 blood threshold or 1 wild threshold to be able to play anything. (A bucktooth commander, Necessary Sacrifice, or Wretched brood.)

Now you can say that you can easily just play a bucktooth commander at turn 4 or 5, reduce the shard distribution to the same as deck 1 and be happy. However if you were to do this you will end up coming in to situations where you have 1 or 2 Commanders in your hand but can't play them when your opponent only needs you to have a turn or two of inaction to get the lead and maybe the win.

You will also notice more of a problem when you mulligan, getting 4-6 cards in hand with a Bucktooth commander when you only have 0-1 wild shards in opening hand, Or you are unlucky enough to draw a commander early but not the wild shards. In this situation where every card you draw is important.

You may want to argue Overrun and Necessary Sacrifice are similar in this situation and they can be. However if you get an Overrun, it is a card that wins you the game so you know that you most likely will be in a situation to win as soon as you hit 6-7 shards. Necessary Sacrifice on the other hand you can easily perform once you have the sources/threshold, thanks to Monika'shin.

This was a long explanation and I am sure I got off track somewhere as my mind tends to do but I hope you get the gist. Often this situation appears to players to be mana screw, because they get in situations where they only need 1 shard to do anything. But in reality it is closer to a deck problem. I am hoping people will notice possible threshold conflicts in their decks and better their play experience. Yes, you can play a card like Shards of fate to help with thresholds, however it is a type of card that can slow some decks down.

VeScorp
12-30-2013, 07:47 AM
All I can say here is you are wrong, and I don't even want to explain why - that will lead me to writing a similar wall of text which will not make any impact anyways.

Lawlschool
12-30-2013, 11:46 PM
All I can say here is you are wrong, and I don't even want to explain why - that will lead me to writing a similar wall of text which will not make any impact anyways.

You can't just say someone's wrong and not explain why. Kinda poor form. And anyway, don't the two of you agree that Deck 1 is better anyway? Neither are particularly good decks and Avaian acknowledged that, but Deck 1 is definitely the better of the two, and I think he does a good job of explaining why.

VeScorp
12-31-2013, 10:55 AM
His reasoning is completely wrong. He judges the difference by the only card's cost/threshold, without looking at it's impact on deck's strategy and gameplay - that's not a good way to go