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Gwaer
01-22-2014, 09:25 PM
Funktion and I are heading up to the CZE offices in 2 weeks and it has been a while since I've done a questions and answers thing. So here's your chance!

If you have an interesting question, or a burning need to know what the deal is with Kyle and if he survived his bear wrestling encounter, send me a message on the forum, or post your question in this thread. I'll pick my favorites, and/or ones that I can actually get someone to answer and get responses posted back here for your knowing pleasure. Hopefully someone from CZE will show up and start answering the easy ones.

Feel free to ask questions about the experience, the office, the people. I'll try to take notes.

Lawlschool
01-22-2014, 09:35 PM
Crafting! Any news or info on the crafting system would be very much appreciated.

Xenavire
01-22-2014, 09:55 PM
Maybe ask if they have rough set numbers in mind for the next few sets/blocks. Say, 350 for each first set in a block, 200 for every other set, and 450 for the distant reprint core sets (obviously these numbers are fake, the idea is to ask them what they have in mind going foward.)

This is mainly a curiosity question though, so it is fairly low prio.

Handsofevil
01-22-2014, 09:56 PM
I second both of these

Zomnivore
01-22-2014, 10:23 PM
Fish hands!?!!?

Everything Fish Hands.

Also.

Um...like err...uhh what hand is your favorite fish hand?

Did you name them?

What species are they?

Do they fight?

How much fish hand does a fish hand?

funktion
01-22-2014, 10:54 PM
I've got a whole boat load of stuff I wanna know about... but I don't think that really counts here : P

BlackRoger
01-23-2014, 02:28 AM
I think alot of people would like to know if there is a chance more pve will make it into beta now that the release schedule has been delayed quite a bit.

Yuhan
01-23-2014, 03:36 AM
Could you ask what the deal is with PvE when when we'll see it?

Thanks!

hex_colin
01-23-2014, 09:18 AM
Funktion and I are heading up to the CZE offices in 2 weeks and it has been a while since I've done a questions and answers thing. So here's your chance!

If you have an interesting question, or a burning need to know what the deal is with Kyle and if he survived his bear wrestling encounter, send me a message on the forum, or post your question in this thread. I'll pick my favorites, and/or ones that I can actually get someone to answer and get responses posted back here for your knowing pleasure. Hopefully someone from CZE will show up and start answering the easy ones.

Feel free to ask questions about the experience, the office, the people. I'll try to take notes.

Wait, don't I count? :P

Gwaer
01-23-2014, 09:35 AM
You're always at the CZE offices. =P

hex_colin
01-23-2014, 09:37 AM
You're always at the CZE offices. =P

Not as much as I'd like! :) Damn work!

Yoss
01-23-2014, 10:11 AM
I'd love to know if the AH structure is going to be like WoW/D3 (pure auction) or like EVE/GW2 (bid/ask). Enjoy your trip!

I'm still hoping to make it down there some time, but it's hard now that I'm not single. Maybe if CZE worked weekends... :D

ossuary
01-23-2014, 10:46 AM
Take the significant other with you. If she (or he, no judgements here) can't handle you hanging around with other nerds, nerding it up for a couple of hours, she's not the one anyway. :)

Yoss
01-23-2014, 11:00 AM
Take the significant other with you. If she (or he, no judgements here) can't handle you hanging around with other nerds, nerding it up for a couple of hours, she's not the one anyway. :)

Not so sure CZE wants my kids tearing up their offices. :p

Revoluketion
01-23-2014, 11:37 AM
I'm honestly curious how they feel they will handle to hearth stones grip on the casual market.

Lawlschool
01-23-2014, 11:53 AM
I'm honestly curious how they feel they will handle to hearth stones grip on the casual market.

A) Having a better product.
B) Realizing people can play both.
C) Targeting a different market.

ossuary
01-23-2014, 12:16 PM
Yeah, now all they need to do is stop trying to move towards Hearthstone's market, and they'll be fine. :)

funktion
01-23-2014, 12:30 PM
There's a lot of really clever stuff that they'll be able to do since Hex is a more full-bodied game. If implemented well the folks playing hearthstone will be saying "why the f*** isn't blizz doing this?" since some of it is the type of stuff that would really apeal to that market.

Anyways /end derail

If last year's costume was princess cory, what will this year's obnoxious cory costume be? I must know.

Voices
01-24-2014, 06:29 AM
Here are a few 'easy' questions that should be answerable without much discussion or hesitation:

- Regarding KS update #58 and the WIN/LOSS stats window: Why show only 4 + 1 random stats when lots of other stats are already being collected?
- When will we see more Hex merchandize (t-shirts, etc.) and what did CZE learn from selling stuff to people outside of the US (shipment costs, etc.)?
- How is Christie Golden getting on with the novel? A small excerpt for us to read, perhaps?
- Cory said something on his personal Twitter regarding HEX Con and that we could expect more information about it soon. Any ETA on that?

Hope you guys will have a good time at CZE HQ :D

ossuary
01-24-2014, 06:57 AM
They said at one point that they were working on an overhaul to the website. I'd like to know when that is coming, and what they're planning to do to it.

Freebird_Falcon
01-24-2014, 09:23 AM
sweeet. /jelly

- Do they plan to add a combat/turn log?

- Do they like the current deck search function or will they make it easier to navigate? (I'm not a fan of the variable speed side-scrolling)

- Can we get the Accept button moved away from hovering over your hand?

- What are their thoughts regarding the full spectrum of control Blood has? (single target elimination, single target atk/def redux, board wipe, indirect card hate, direct card hate)

- Are we approaching Beta or are we still looking at a few more months of Alpha?

- When will Dunthorpe start compiling his beastiary :)

wasichu
01-24-2014, 01:32 PM
Any plans for two headed giant. And cant we get a way to select starting a 4 man tournament as well as 8. Eight takes so long to fill and so long to complete.

Yoss
01-24-2014, 01:34 PM
Any plans for two headed giant. And cant we get a way to select starting a 4 man tournament as well as 8. Eight takes so long to fill and so long to complete.

Rather ask about asynchronous tournament queues!

Jyndreytu
01-24-2014, 01:56 PM
My biggest question right now concerns their marketing endeavors. The purpose of HEX is to be an eSport. I just went on Twitch, and currently there are around 20,000 viewers for Hearthstone, and 17 for HEX. Everyone on these forums knows the game is great and is a superior game to Hearthstone and other similar digital TCGs, but if we have no one to play it with, than an eSport status is going to be basically impossible to come by.

I would much rather see more resources poured into marketing and getting word out for the game, rather than developers spending time on making sure the Alpha is functioning correctly for the few that play the game currently. The money and time that is spent working on coding to fixing alpha bugs, could be spent on figuring out how they plan to compete with Hearthstone and other similar games.

I know that Colin did a recent Gamespot interview, and that HEX has gotten some recent press, but what else is CZE doing to ensure that this game is going to be competitive with others, other than word of mouth of the people that currently play the game? Why aren't CZE employees streaming this game constantly to ensure there is always a way for people to check out this game being played? If the community wasn't taking care of this for them, how would people even know about HEX?

tl;dr: How is CZE going to handle the marketing of this game to make it an eSport?

Yoss
01-24-2014, 02:16 PM
I would much rather see more resources poured into marketing and getting word out for the game, rather than developers spending time on making sure the Alpha is functioning correctly

This seems rather misguided. Hex is WAY behind the market due to not hitting beta last year. CZE needs to be 100% focused on getting their product to beta ASAP. The current product is pretty bad, lookin in from the outside. We love it as KS backers because we joined for the dream and like watching it progress. But to the wider market, the product just isn't good yet. Once they hit non-monetized beta and as they approach monetizing, then they can start beating the drums. In marketing, timing is extremely important. It would almost be better for Hex to fade back a bit and then come blazing out to market rather than just dawdling along for a year and then having a lackluster release*.

*By "release" I mean open monetized beta, because once they monetize they better darn well have the majority of features in and bugs out.

Rokku
01-24-2014, 02:32 PM
My question: Are CZE thinking of adding animated art cards. Maybe as promo or prizes?

Personally I'd prefer that to foils. Doesn't have to be for every card though just as something special.

Jyndreytu
01-24-2014, 02:32 PM
It would almost be better for Hex to fade back a bit and then come blazing out to market rather than just dawdling along for a year and then having a lackluster release*.

Your statement here is exactly what I'm worried about, but you worded it much better than I did. I remember when they did their first Hextcg stream to play some sample games, and there were over 1000 viewers if I remember correctly. Now there are around 50-100 on a good day. What is CZE doing or planning to do to try to remedy the situation?

funktion
02-01-2014, 12:27 AM
Giving this a bump in case anyone's come up with any more questions etc which they'd like answered. Just a few more days, I can't wait!

Yoss
02-01-2014, 09:46 AM
I'd love to know if the AH structure is going to be like WoW/D3 (pure auction) or like EVE/GW2 (bid/ask).

This one's been answered already.

Lawlschool
02-01-2014, 11:34 AM
Your statement here is exactly what I'm worried about, but you worded it much better than I did. I remember when they did their first Hextcg stream to play some sample games, and there were over 1000 viewers if I remember correctly. Now there are around 50-100 on a good day. What is CZE doing or planning to do to try to remedy the situation?

What makes you think it's a situation that needs to be remedied? Like Yoss said, Hex isn't in a position to be marketed right now. What marketing can they even have? Hey guys, come look at our unpolished, buggy, feature incomplete alpha? They likely have the money they need to finish development, which should be the main focus right now. Once Hex is in beta, then they can market it like how every other company markets their beta: closed beta invite keys randomly sent out, followed by an open beta, then launch.

Not to mention, word of mouth has been pretty powerful for Hex so far. Made it one of the most successful Kickstarter campaigns amd it already has plenty of community support. Don't know the numbers, but we do see new people still pledging Slacker Backers.

It's premature to worry about marketing, because it's still too early for them to be marketing Hex. Once Hex is more stable, more polished, and more complete, then they can start focusing resources on marketing.

Idus
02-01-2014, 02:24 PM
Crafting! Any news or info on the crafting system would be very much appreciated.

3rd vote for this, plus any other PvE news we can get.

bojanglesz
02-01-2014, 04:39 PM
I third (or fourth/fifth) PvE questions, especially if they've changed plans about what PvE will be in monetized beta. Also, beta in Q1 2014? Or was that just market speak for the Gamespot video.

GPrime
02-01-2014, 06:02 PM
Good lords, I hope beta doesn't collide with my plant shutdown in April. Mandatory overtime for possibly two months and little to no Hex time.

I'd like to know a little about international play. I expect that in general we'll be segregated (separate tournaments, ladders, auction houses, lobbies, etc.) but will you be able to add someone from a different region as a friend and play a game?

Edit: Re-read the relevant news post. Cross-region trade won't happen, but it doesn't mention anything about friendly games.

ossuary
02-01-2014, 11:08 PM
Realistically speaking, they're server shards, the same as WOW. You can't play with someone on a different server from you.

There's nothing stopping you, though, as far as they've said, from just making your character on the North American server instead of the European one, if most of your friends are there.

The only major feature that's going to be cross-server are the CZE sponsored timed tournaments (the big ones, not the ones you can start up any time you feel like it).

Xenavire
02-02-2014, 07:53 AM
Realistically speaking, they're server shards, the same as WOW. You can't play with someone on a different server from you.

There's nothing stopping you, though, as far as they've said, from just making your character on the North American server instead of the European one, if most of your friends are there.

The only major feature that's going to be cross-server are the CZE sponsored timed tournaments (the big ones, not the ones you can start up any time you feel like it).

To be fair, WoW is trying to implement new ways to go cross server, and it has been possible in matchmaking (although difficult.) They are trying hard to make things more open for players (a little too late, but they are trying.)

It isn't unfeasible for Hex to try the same for friendly games.

I doubt it will be easy, especially when it comes down to certain laws. (For example, China will never be linked to the US/EU servers in WoW, due to a lot of legal issues, not to mention the technical ones.) So Hex might get stuck in the same position. But I don't think they would do it by choice.

mach
02-02-2014, 12:09 PM
Realistically speaking, they're server shards, the same as WOW. You can't play with someone on a different server from you.

There's nothing stopping you, though, as far as they've said, from just making your character on the North American server instead of the European one, if most of your friends are there.


I don't get this. If they don't have problems with people playing on servers in other regions, why have separate servers to begin with?

It makes sense for real-time games like WoW because of latency. But Hex is turn-based (only 1 player has priority at any time), so that shouldn't be an issue.

Lawlschool
02-02-2014, 12:32 PM
I don't get this. If they don't have problems with people playing on servers in other regions, why have separate servers to begin with?

It makes sense for real-time games like WoW because of latency. But Hex is turn-based (only 1 player has priority at any time), so that shouldn't be an issue.

Potential legal issues when they implement Plat cash-outs would be a safe guess.

mach
02-02-2014, 05:49 PM
Potential legal issues when they implement Plat cash-outs would be a safe guess.

I really don't see how that would be a problem. MTGO has one global server and a cash-out mechanism (redemption).

At worst, the cash-out service might not be available in certain countries due to local laws.

Lawlschool
02-02-2014, 08:52 PM
I really don't see how that would be a problem. MTGO has one global server and a cash-out mechanism (redemption).

At worst, the cash-out service might not be available in certain countries due to local laws.

It's not that it's not possible, just might not be a realistic goal for CZE at this point. Also, I don't think either of us know enough about this stuff to argue about it, I was just trying to make a semi-educated guess.

Gwaer
02-03-2014, 08:38 PM
I'm heading to bed. Leaving bright and early in the morning to fly through the sky in a metal box, just for you guys. It has nothing to do with going to Disneyland or anything. If you want to throw your questions at me. Now is your last chance.

ossuary
02-03-2014, 09:38 PM
I'm heading to bed. Leaving bright and early in the morning to fly through the sky in a metal box, just for you guys. It has nothing to do with going to Disneyland or anything. If you want to throw your questions at me. Now is your last chance.

Be sure to be outside the gates with your ticket in hand before the park actually opens. As soon as they let people in, make a mad dash for Space Mountain (straight ahead through main street, veer slightly right into Tomorrow Land, all the way to the back, on the right). You'll thank me for you not getting stuck in a 2 hour line later in the day. :)

Or if you're paying to get into California Adventures as well, do yourself a favor and go straight to the Cars ride instead... that frickin' thing is STILL a 3+ hour wait no matter what time of day you go. :p

bojanglesz
02-03-2014, 10:46 PM
I'm heading to bed. Leaving bright and early in the morning to fly through the sky in a metal box, just for you guys. It has nothing to do with going to Disneyland or anything. If you want to throw your questions at me. Now is your last chance.

You're the hero we need, but not the one we deserve.

Gwaer
02-05-2014, 10:48 PM
The answer to the PVE question is that junkyard dogs is blowing Funktion and I out of the water and we both quit.

saffamike
02-05-2014, 11:00 PM
So you got to try out the PVE? Tell us more!

Parzival
02-05-2014, 11:03 PM
Okay Gwaer, now you asked for it ;)

Is it still in paper form or do they have it coded yet? Rob mentioned he played paper form some months ago.

Blown out of the water? - as in awesome or insanely difficult? Quit as stopped playing or ran out of lives?

Ugh the teasing! :)

Saffamike, close the door and bring the lamp!

saffamike
02-05-2014, 11:21 PM
Yep - don't drop a bomb and then leave the room. Gwaer, you tease!

Gwaer
02-06-2014, 02:18 AM
It's challenging, very interesting, and lots of fun.

Funktion has a more complete list of answers that he'll be putting out shortly. I'll be heading home on Friday, and should be able to sit down and collect my thoughts so as not to violate any NDA type things. I'll definitely be writing up something about the experience.

Unfortunately PVE still has a pretty tight lid on it and they're just not ready to talk. Hopefully we'll be hearing more soon.

Zomnivore
02-06-2014, 04:37 PM
Aww, thats unfortunate, from the sound of it they were ready to give a lil more info on pve a while back.

I guess they changed their minds on what they aught to reveal just yet.

saffamike
02-06-2014, 05:04 PM
M4ntic mentioned that Junkyard dogs was still in paper form yesterday. Sounds like they had a blast. Looking forward to reading Funktion's report-back.

bojanglesz
02-07-2014, 04:50 PM
Eagerly awaiting the goodies ;-)

funktion
02-08-2014, 12:32 PM
M4ntic mentioned that Junkyard dogs was still in paper form yesterday. Sounds like they had a blast. Looking forward to reading Funktion's report-back.

Just rolled into town late last night after a long drive, but I probably won't be able to post my notes until monday. Most of my time was spent talking with the design team so there were a few questions (namely anything related to the new website etc) that I didn't get a chance to ask.

Junkyard dogs really was great fun though. It is still in paper form which makes me even more eager to see it with all the visuals and thematics fully fleshed out. Even with it just being on paper and for just being a card game it still felt pretty immersive which I was definitely very surprised by.

Gwaer
02-10-2014, 12:33 AM
Okay, I've been home for a while now, and have had a chance to weigh my thoughts on visiting CZE. I highly recommend the experience to anyone who is interested. Pretty much everyone there is an absolute rock star. I think they work a bit too hard and everyone needs to take a nice vacation for a week, a week delay for the mental health of the people creating this thing for us would go a long way to giving us a better product in the long run, and for the well being of people that have been working so hard for so long.


Aside from that they went out of their way to let me participate, they listened thoughtfully to what I had to say, they played hex with me, they played other games they are working on with me and tried to include me in absolutely everything, including some things that I probably absolutely shouldn't have been included in. Still, when I interrupted they listened thought about what I said and deliberated it on its merits even though I was just some guy off the street. I can say with great certainty that me being there altered that game in some small way, and I certainly hope for the better.


To speak in some generalities about some of the questions you guys had, PVE is more or less on track with what I understood from the kickstarter, which means we are unlikely to see very much in beta, likely a single dungeon just before launch. I wouldn't expect them to say much of anything on the subject primarily because they are so excited about it, and want everyone to look at it fresh. It's going to be something special.


Sets in general seem to be a bit larger the mtg sets, but a bit smaller than this first Hex set.

The most disappointing thing that happened all week was that I found out that fish hands isn't quite as good as I built it up in my head
=P

just to reiterate, the CZE crew is incredibly dedicated. They get there early in the morning and leave extremely late as night. It's tough, and it's unhealthy for them to function under that kind of pressure for that long. I certainly hope a large group of people will join me in pushing for them to take some vacation time, they really have earned it. Maybe after drafts are in and running pretty smoothly? Someone organize a letter writing campaign. Deadlines be damned IMO. So what if it's a week or two later than it could have been otherwise. We've waited this long, we'll survive a bit longer.

mach
02-10-2014, 01:01 AM
To speak in some generalities about some of the questions you guys had, PVE is more or less on track with what I understood from the kickstarter, which means we are unlikely to see very much in beta, likely a single dungeon just before launch. I wouldn't expect them to say much of anything on the subject primarily because they are so excited about it, and want everyone to look at it fresh. It's going to be something special.


I don't get this attitude at all.

I understand keeping the endgame content under wraps for a while so everyone can "look at it fresh." But the PvE game systems are something you should want to get out at as early as possible, so they can thoroughly debug/balance it and incorporate feedback. Waiting until people are playing for keeps to do this is inviting disaster.

Plus, without PvE content half the the economy isn't in place, so testing the economy won't be possible. Structural changes to the economy are much more painful when you can't wipe everything and start again.

If nearly all PvE isn't in until launch, we're effectively going to see a post-launch beta. I've seen this in other games and it sucks. It's so much better for players to test everything during beta, not during the first few months of release.

ossuary
02-10-2014, 05:32 AM
I remember when Dark Age of Camelot launched, and none of the level 30+ dungeons were even itemized yet... everything just dropped extra gold. It only took a significant portion of the playerbase 2-3 weeks to get to that level, and be pissed off that there were essentially no rewards to encourage their continuing play. It was a good 5 or 6 months before those dungeons got loot tables. What a shit show.

I understand CZE wants to keep the bulk of the content close to their chest to maintain the surprise and enjoyment, and I am totally in favor of that in general terms. But realistically speaking, their balance designs have been fairly far off the mark in a number of places so far, and it would behoove them to have a beta period for at least a vertical slice of the content, to make sure their presumptions are accurate and can be tweaked as needed prior to giving out the KS rewards. The PVE contribution to the economy is going to be very important, and they can't afford for it to be wrong, or it will severely damage the game environment and their profits as well. They need to make it a priority to have at least a handful of dungeons testable and driving the player economy before they go live, or they could very well deeply regret it.

Xenavire
02-10-2014, 06:09 AM
I support the idea of giving them a break. But I doubt any of them would agree to taking a weeks vacation, so how about this: each member takes a few days off (not all at the same time) to recharge and relax. That way they can genuinely relax, knowing the game is still progressing, and then they can come back fresh.

That isn't to say I think they don't deserve more time off, I have felt for a while that they have been running themselves ragged. They need to have an office party away from the office. Anything to relax them.

bojanglesz
02-10-2014, 09:01 AM
Thanks for impressions Gwaer! I'll be very surprised if PVE releases in 2014.

Korix
02-10-2014, 09:48 AM
Sounds like they could use some apprentices...

mudkip
02-10-2014, 09:58 AM
They get there early in the morning and leave extremely late as night. It's tough, and it's unhealthy for them to function under that kind of pressure for that long.
There's something wrong with their management if they are pressured into working more than 40 hours a week. I understand that there is a "crunch time" with every project, but if it's crunch time 24/7 then the project has issues which run deep.

Gwaer
02-10-2014, 10:07 AM
*shrug* Crunch time lasts until the project is done. This is software development. Honestly CZE hasn't even been in crunch mode anywhere near as long as many project go for. Still though, it's not healthy in other projects either. That's just software development for you.

ossuary
02-10-2014, 10:15 AM
There's something wrong with their management if they are pressured into working more than 40 hours a week. I understand that there is a "crunch time" with every project, but if it's crunch time 24/7 then the project has issues which run deep.

There's a big difference between management forcing people to work late by dangling carrots in front of everyone that are never delivered on (EA), and people voluntarily (wisely or otherwise) staying late hours and putting in lots of work to see a project they believe in reach fruition.

When I worked for an MMO design company 10 or so years ago, we had staff (including myself) who regularly put in 60-75 hours a week for no additional remuneration whatsoever, and we were still in pre-alpha. Some projects just bring out the passion in people.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, and I also think they should be striving for a healthy work-life balance... but don't automatically assume that just because people are working long hours someone is forcing them to with whip in hand. :)

mudkip
02-10-2014, 10:57 AM
*shrug* Crunch time lasts until the project is done. This is software development. Honestly CZE hasn't even been in crunch mode anywhere near as long as many project go for. Still though, it's not healthy in other projects either. That's just software development for you.
Hex launch won't be for like, 6-9 months (guessing). As you were saying, it would be unsustainable to work people hard for that period of time. If they need to work like that, then there's something wrong with the resource allocations or with the deadlines.


There's a big difference between management forcing people to work late by dangling carrots in front of everyone that are never delivered on (EA), and people voluntarily (wisely or otherwise) staying late hours and putting in lots of work to see a project they believe in reach fruition.

When I worked for an MMO design company 10 or so years ago, we had staff (including myself) who regularly put in 60-75 hours a week for no additional remuneration whatsoever, and we were still in pre-alpha. Some projects just bring out the passion in people.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, and I also think they should be striving for a healthy work-life balance... but don't automatically assume that just because people are working long hours someone is forcing them to with whip in hand. :)
Well, if it's out of choice, then there's no need to give extra time off ;)

Xenavire
02-10-2014, 11:02 AM
There's a big difference between management forcing people to work late by dangling carrots in front of everyone that are never delivered on (EA), and people voluntarily (wisely or otherwise) staying late hours and putting in lots of work to see a project they believe in reach fruition.

When I worked for an MMO design company 10 or so years ago, we had staff (including myself) who regularly put in 60-75 hours a week for no additional remuneration whatsoever, and we were still in pre-alpha. Some projects just bring out the passion in people.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, and I also think they should be striving for a healthy work-life balance... but don't automatically assume that just because people are working long hours someone is forcing them to with whip in hand. :)

This, exactly this. The CZE staff are passionate - they dangle their own carrots, so to speak. Which is why they need to take a break before they burn out, because when a body burns out, so can the passion.

Besides, what happens if half the team collapses due to exhaustion? The game would be delayed by weeks. It is only smart to take breaks.

Gwaer
02-10-2014, 11:03 AM
Mudkip... MMO's have been in crunch time for multiple years at a time.

And your second statement doesn't really track for me either.

Yoss
02-10-2014, 11:38 AM
Mudkip, I'm pretty sure Blizzard runs a pretty harsh overtime schedule on its staff during crunch time, which can last for years on end. And theirs is mandatory (but paid). It's kinda funny, their staff chooses to have an hourly wage rather than salary because all the double-time pay is just too much to pass up.