PDA

View Full Version : What kind of cost we looking at here?



JCourtney
01-28-2014, 09:45 PM
What kind of cost we looking at here? Is it going to be expensive as MTGO? Is a full set going to cost $600 and above?

Handsofevil
01-28-2014, 10:11 PM
Each booster, of 15 cards, will be $2. Or the VIP program is $4 and gives you 4 packs each month. So it will be cheaper than MTG in that regards. As to collecting a full set, we won't know that until we see drop rates.

JCourtney
01-28-2014, 10:20 PM
But there is only one rare card in each pack with no chance of additional rares right?

DackFayden
01-28-2014, 11:24 PM
I'm gonna ask a question that has been asked before:

Did CZE ever say we could turn our time spent in PVE into packs?
Are they going to implement an event ticket system like mtgo?

Yoss
01-28-2014, 11:31 PM
Q: Did CZE ever say we could turn our time spent in PVE into packs?
A: We are almost certain that Gold and Plat will have a market-based exchange rate in some way shape or form. No one knows yet what the "grind rate" will be for converting time to Plat. We also do not know if the exchange will be a formal Currency Exchange or an informal player-to-player back-door thing, or something in between. My personal hope is that it will be a formal market-based Currency Exchange.

Q: Are they going to implement an event ticket system like mtgo?
A: Hex has Platinum, which represents $US in the game. There is no need for event tickets or other PVP currency. There might be tournament entry passes and PVP cards that drop with low drop rate in PVE as a hook for f2p players to come try the monetized side of the game.

If you'd like to read all we know about the economy (it ain't much), you can use the links in my sig. There's more speculation than facts, I'm afraid.

JCourtney
01-28-2014, 11:37 PM
Why is there so much transparency of these features? Shouldn't this stuff already be planned out?

Yoss
01-28-2014, 11:43 PM
I've been wondering the same thing. I'm hoping one of the near-term update articles will be a giant reveal on the Auction House and economy structure. It's the most important thing that we haven't been told yet.

ossuary
01-29-2014, 05:31 AM
Why is there so much transparency of these features? Shouldn't this stuff already be planned out?

I think you meant "so little transparency" (as in, why don't we have any concrete details). It should be planned out by now, but they only got the funding they needed to finalize the game and add a lot of extra features less than a year ago. They've hired an actual economist to help them with that side of things, so I imagine that realistically they had PLANS in place for all of this, but nothing was set in stone until they had the time to develop it more fully with a professional.

And since the PVE side of things is furthest away from release right now, and the auction house / player economy is further down the list than the rest of the "we need this stuff to work" alpha development, they're just not talking about it yet.

Shaqattack promised us an update talking about PVE way back in December, when he had time to sit down with a couple of the guys who are working on it... but I think he forgot with all the rush of stuff going on. :)

The short answer, though, is CZE certainly has stuff planned out, they just haven't gone into detail about it with us yet.

Zomnivore
01-29-2014, 06:53 AM
I should expect in the half magic range.... with probably scaling increases as they acquire investors/partners and cave to investor/partner pressure for more profit.




Either their launch/release schedule has changed due to sound business practices looking at competitor launches and competing directly with them, and they don't want to upset backers, but also can't release soon optimally with competitors in mind...

Or they've got no freaking clue when they're going to launch and can't be buggered to even have a meeting to even suspect when the reality of an actual launch can occur.

Either one of those aught to serve you well as an option to choose.

They're certainly not, not telling you just to raise your ire.

Kami
01-29-2014, 07:09 AM
Likely, cards themselves will not be extremely valuable. Especially not in the first set.

However, it is very likely that equipment and collectibles will be extremely valuable due to rarity. But again, that really depends on how much you care about PvE and collectibles.

Equipment/collectibles requires a time (possibly even travel) and skill obligation to be able to get the drops from PvE; whereas, all cards will primarily be available through trade and/or splurging with your money.

Zomnivore
01-29-2014, 11:03 AM
To be honest, look at the fiscal calender and just pick a quarter. They've got financial limitations on all these sorts of time tables for distribution.

Judge which quarter seems like a reasonable date and just expect it in there.

Part of the meta understanding of games I guess, you just become more aware of all the working parts eventually...if you try to pay attention at all.

tautologico
01-29-2014, 06:22 PM
Considering there will be an AH and an effective rate of exchange for dollars/platinum, how expensive it will ultimately be will depend on the secondary market, demand, possibility of cash prizes, etc. But all indications point to it being cheaper than MtG.

JCourtney
01-29-2014, 09:15 PM
If it's anywhere close to as costly as MTG, then I'll probably pass. Card games aren't worth spending as much my gaming computer costs.

Lawlschool
01-29-2014, 09:30 PM
If it's anywhere close to as costly as MTG, then I'll probably pass. Card games aren't worth spending as much my gaming computer costs.

It probably won't be as expensive as MtG, but it will likely be costly to get full sets or top-tier decks. Think of it like a MMO subscription; if you don't want to pay $15 a month to play an MMO, you probably won't want to play Hex. There is, however, the f2p PvE side, which looks like it will be pretty awesome.

JCourtney
01-29-2014, 09:39 PM
It probably won't be as expensive as MtG, but it will likely be costly to get full sets or top-tier decks. Think of it like a MMO subscription; if you don't want to pay $15 a month to play an MMO, you probably won't want to play Hex. There is, however, the f2p PvE side, which looks like it will be pretty awesome.

$15 a month is not bad, but +$600 every six months is pretty bad. If it's going to be like MTGO, then you're looking at like $15 per rare card and you need 4 of them for a deck. It's unreal expensive.

Parzival
01-29-2014, 10:21 PM
Well it really depends on what your goal is.

As Lawl stated, if you want to have some fun playing cards casually, the PVE stuff will be free , if you want to be a ranked constructed player, then it will cost money, less than MTG but a lot more than a MMO.

There is the VIP subscription which gets you a pack of cards a week for $4/month, you could always play some PVE and supplement with a cheap pack of cards a week or draft once a month with just covering the entry fee in plat.

Cards on the AH, well that's anyones guess, as others have predicted, a singular global marketplace and cheaper packs should result in lower prices.

JCourtney
01-29-2014, 10:24 PM
Are they going to make it like Hearthstone where you can grind out some free packs every once in awhile?

Yoss
01-29-2014, 10:29 PM
Are they going to make it like Hearthstone where you can grind out some free packs every once in awhile?

You will be able to convert your PVE loot for Platinum, yes. (Either directly or through multi-trade schemes.) No one knows yet how much Plat/hour you'll be able to grind.

Parzival
01-29-2014, 10:35 PM
Are they going to make it like Hearthstone where you can grind out some free packs every once in awhile?

PVP packs? Doubtful, maybe one in a dungeon bosses loot list but not a common occurrence. PVE? Definitely, suggested shops to spend gold to buy PVE cards and card rewards from dungeons and raids.

As Yoss said, you could then take your PVE cards and sell them for Plat on the AH.

DanTheMeek
01-29-2014, 10:35 PM
Because they're s been so little transparency on this topic, we've all kind of had to assume the worst... and maybe they haven't told us because it is as bad as we fear, or worse, the only thing anyone can tell you right now is that we don't know and the minor details we do know (like the cost of packs and the VIP program, both of which don't really mean much when we don't know the rarity distributions of said packs).

I'm pretty sure they've stated on numerous occasions they want to keep PvE and PvP seperate as much as possible (which I think is a good decision) so any PvP cards you can get from PvE will be minimal and only one time events, no way to grind for them. The good news being, that the game doesn't encourage you to grind, and thus can potentially be built around fun instead of around making you waste your time until you get fed up and just spend money. All this said, PvE only cards have been indicated to be earned via PvE itself, so if you just enjoy collecting cards and playing single player, you can theoretically do so with out ever spending a dime. How separate they make PvE from PvP in the auction house (aka, can you spend real money to buy PvE stuff or does it have to be PvE earned money) is unknown and will determine is PvE becomes pay to win or will be a legitimate way to show off your in game accomplishments.

But again, long story short, we really don't know much of anything, and even the things we think we do know are subject to change, just what they had planned at the time they announced it.

Yoss
01-29-2014, 11:00 PM
Dan, CZE actually made some big reveals today about the economy and AH. We now know, for example, that Plat and Gold will be convertible both through direct player to player trades and on the AH by using other commodities (cards) as proxies for the underlying currency transaction.


http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32198&p=336363&viewfull=1#post336363

Leingod
01-30-2014, 06:17 PM
$15 a month is not bad, but +$600 every six months is pretty bad. If it's going to be like MTGO, then you're looking at like $15 per rare card and you need 4 of them for a deck. It's unreal expensive.

Hex will likely never be as expensive as Magic. The packs are half-price, primal packs will increase rare counts, and there simply aren't the type of cards that will hit you like power 9. They seem to be making most of the widespread multi-use effects common and uncommon like shards of fate. I'm sure there will be chase rares/legendaries like Mastery of Time and Extinction, but I doubt they ever hit MTG cost levels. Especially since there will likely be a way to convert pve resources/time into pvp cards/packs.

DanTheMeek
01-30-2014, 07:15 PM
Thanks for the heads up Yoss, that was a great read. Well the 1 in 11 is a pretty big revelation on the legendary rate. As of right now, going of hex data-mine, we've got 204 cards revealed, and 16 of them are legionaries so its unclear how many more there might be, but in the unlikely event that those 16 are the only legendaries in the entire set, that means that on average, just to get 1 copy of a legendary you want, you're going to need to buy 176 packs (176/16 = 11). Now obviously that doesn't include primals or account for the ability to sell legionaries you don't want and directly buy the ones you do off the AH, but we also found out that the auction house will have a non-negligible fee on all transactions and they're leaning toward a listing fee on top of that, so any time you sell a legendary to buy another, you're losing money over all.

Sooo... if you're deck requires just 1 playset of a legendary, and your goal is to get them from packs... I'd change your goal. On average you should have them after opening 704 packs. You could get lucky and open all 4 before that, or you could get unlucky and even that many packs won't get you a playset. At 2 bucks a pack thats 1408 dollars just to get the legendaries your deck needs.

You're much better off, then, just buying them off the auction house. What that price will be is difficult to say, we expect set 1 to be a bit flooded with cards do to all the backers, initially driving prices down, but as those numbers indicate, even backers who got 100 packs could very well not even open a single copy of the legendary you're looking for. If its a staple legendary that everyone wants (extinction for example), and most will want 4 copies of, I don't even want to think about what the costs may be. But lets say, just for the sake of throwing out a number, that since you get 1 legendary per 11 packs, a legendary goes for the cost of 8 packs (about 30% less then the cost of all the packs it took to get it), or 16 dollars. Grabbing 4 off the AH will cost you 64 dollars, and now you've got 4 cards out of the 60 for your deck (admittedly probably at least a third of those will be free resources).

But regular rares should be easy to come by right? Well let see, again, this is just from what I'm showing on hex datamine and there still more cards to be added, but right now there are 68 rares. If we assume 1 rare per pack, and that you still get a rare when you pull a legendary (which I doubt but we'll let that account for rares from primals which I have to again ignore do to no solid info on them other then that they'll be more rare then legendarys), it'll take about 68 packs on average to get one of the rares you want, 272 packs on average for a full playset of 4, or 544 dollars worth of packs. Again, probably not worth buying packs for. So we go to the auction house again where I suspect rares will probably be a lot easier to come by in set 1 then legendaries (or rares in future sets for that matter). Lets put them at a 1.50 for decent but not must owns, probably 50 cents to a buck for random filler rares, more if its another staple. So that's potentially only 6 bucks for a playset which is much more reasonable. If you need two rare playsets 12 dollars. Now just to make things simple lets say uncommons are 50 cents, commons 5 cents, no math, just picking numbers.

So for a deck with 1 legendary playset, 2 rare playsets, and 2 uncommon playsets, and 4 common playsets (36 cards + 24 resource)

thats 64 + 12 + 1 + .20 = 77.20

So $77.20 dollars for the entire deck assuming 1, average (aka, not price driven up by being a tournament staple) legendary, 2 average rares (again, useful, but not tournament staples that everyone wants 4 of), and some uncommon and commons whose acquisition I'm writing off as being mostly negligible, perhaps unfairly.

So thats just some quick and dirty math, and obviously some decks may need more or less legendaries or rares then others, but I think it at least gives us an idea of what creating a competitive deck MIGHT cost. Again, math is very quick and dirty, I make no promises this is even close to accurate, but based on the information we have now, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.

JCourtney
01-30-2014, 09:18 PM
Thanks for the heads up Yoss, that was a great read. Well the 1 in 11 is a pretty big revelation on the legendary rate. As of right now, going of hex data-mine, we've got 204 cards revealed, and 16 of them are legionaries so its unclear how many more there might be, but in the unlikely event that those 16 are the only legendaries in the entire set, that means that on average, just to get 1 copy of a legendary you want, you're going to need to buy 176 packs (176/16 = 11). Now obviously that doesn't include primals or account for the ability to sell legionaries you don't want and directly buy the ones you do off the AH, but we also found out that the auction house will have a non-negligible fee on all transactions and they're leaning toward a listing fee on top of that, so any time you sell a legendary to buy another, you're losing money over all.

Sooo... if you're deck requires just 1 playset of a legendary, and your goal is to get them from packs... I'd change your goal. On average you should have them after opening 704 packs. You could get lucky and open all 4 before that, or you could get unlucky and even that many packs won't get you a playset. At 2 bucks a pack thats 1408 dollars just to get the legendaries your deck needs.

You're much better off, then, just buying them off the auction house. What that price will be is difficult to say, we expect set 1 to be a bit flooded with cards do to all the backers, initially driving prices down, but as those numbers indicate, even backers who got 100 packs could very well not even open a single copy of the legendary you're looking for. If its a staple legendary that everyone wants (extinction for example), and most will want 4 copies of, I don't even want to think about what the costs may be. But lets say, just for the sake of throwing out a number, that since you get 1 legendary per 11 packs, a legendary goes for the cost of 8 packs (about 30% less then the cost of all the packs it took to get it), or 16 dollars. Grabbing 4 off the AH will cost you 64 dollars, and now you've got 4 cards out of the 60 for your deck (admittedly probably at least a third of those will be free resources).

But regular rares should be easy to come by right? Well let see, again, this is just from what I'm showing on hex datamine and there still more cards to be added, but right now there are 68 rares. If we assume 1 rare per pack, and that you still get a rare when you pull a legendary (which I doubt but we'll let that account for rares from primals which I have to again ignore do to no solid info on them other then that they'll be more rare then legendarys), it'll take about 68 packs on average to get one of the rares you want, 272 packs on average for a full playset of 4, or 544 dollars worth of packs. Again, probably not worth buying packs for. So we go to the auction house again where I suspect rares will probably be a lot easier to come by in set 1 then legendaries (or rares in future sets for that matter). Lets put them at a 1.50 for decent but not must owns, probably 50 cents to a buck for random filler rares, more if its another staple. So that's potentially only 6 bucks for a playset which is much more reasonable. If you need two rare playsets 12 dollars. Now just to make things simple lets say uncommons are 50 cents, commons 5 cents, no math, just picking numbers.

So for a deck with 1 legendary playset, 2 rare playsets, and 2 uncommon playsets, and 4 common playsets (36 cards + 24 resource)

thats 64 + 12 + 1 + .20 = 77.20

So $77.20 dollars for the entire deck assuming 1, average (aka, not price driven up by being a tournament staple) legendary, 2 average rares (again, useful, but not tournament staples that everyone wants 4 of), and some uncommon and commons whose acquisition I'm writing off as being mostly negligible, perhaps unfairly.

So thats just some quick and dirty math, and obviously some decks may need more or less legendaries or rares then others, but I think it at least gives us an idea of what creating a competitive deck MIGHT cost. Again, math is very quick and dirty, I make no promises this is even close to accurate, but based on the information we have now, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.

Yeah, I guess I'll probably just stick with Hearthstone. $300 gets me every card. I just don't understand the ploy of spending thousands on this things. I can play Fantasy Flight LCG's for no cost investment at all and get all the cards.

Gwaer
01-30-2014, 09:29 PM
TCG's are definitely not for everyone. It's okay.

JCourtney
01-30-2014, 09:35 PM
Not for people without a lot of disposable income or some sense.

Yoss
01-30-2014, 09:39 PM
Not for people without a lot of disposable income or some sense.

No need for insults.

Everyone knows MTG costs a fair bit of money to play competitively, but there are still lots of people who love it and play it. Hex wants to copy MTG to some extent, but at half the price. Half of a lot may still be substantial and too much for some. However, Hex also comes with lots of other options that won't cost much at all.

DanTheMeek
01-30-2014, 09:46 PM
It's worth emphasizing that PvE will be completely free (though the announcement that you will be able to buy pve stuff with plat, or pvp stuff with gold, on the auction house, just not gold for plat or plat for gold directly, was a bit of a let down as it does make pve pay to win and pvp something people will want to mindlessly grind away for in pve...) so if you only play PvE and you don't mind that people who sped real money can get all the stuff you worked hard for off the AH probably for a couple bucks of real money, you can still argue that the game is free.

If its not clear I really wish they'd have kept PvE and PvP completely separate but it is what it is, but that had previously been the thing I kept telling myself I could still try to lure friends in with if the PvP cost barrier ended up being as bad as I feared. I would like to note that while I LOVE the player focused, lets make the game accessible and cheap for everyone, concept of LCGs over the traditional money focused, lets bleed them for all their worth by praying on gambling addictions, style of TCGs, I haven't seen an online LCG yet and I don't know anyone in my area who plays LCGs, nor would meeting with them for an hour when I find free time to play a few quick games be realistic, so online TCGs such as hex will always have that over LCGs. If Fantasy Flight Games every takes one of their LCGs online, though, please let me know, cause I'd be all over that.

Edit:

So looking at Hex.tcgbrowser.com, they show there being 24 legendaries. As their extinction is not legendary, but is the current staple 4 cost version, I'm going to defer to them as probably being more up to date and re do my calculations.

So with 24 legendaries and only one legendary per 11 packs, that means your odds of getting even just a single copy of a specific legendary you want is 1 in every 264 packs (264/24 = 11). For a play-set thats 1056 packs to get a play set on average just from buying packs. At 2 dollars a pack (and yes they may go for less from the secondary market and VIP and all that, I'm just going off the base price packs are supposedly going for for simplicity) that means to get a playset of a legendary you want just by buying packs you'll need to spend $2112.00 dollars US. And again, thats on average, you could get it for less if your lucky, or you could spend that much and still not get a playset.

So... looks like my King backer status aint getting me all that much even with all those packs, but I really backed to donate and support the game and was more hopeful for PvE anyway, so whatever. I'll say this much, I probably want to start using the heck out of legendary cards in alpha, cause come launch, if I do any PvPing at all, probably gonna want to focus on finding the best themes that can survive purely on rares or below. I admit its still at least a little frustrating though that even after spending over 100 dollars on this game to get a king backer status, still looks like a significant portion of the games content is going to be locked off from me unless I continue to spend more...

Ah tcgs... now I remember why we used to have a love/hate relationship instead of just a love one.

tautologico
01-30-2014, 10:18 PM
Only 1 legendary set and 2 rare sets for a competitive deck? Maybe for the first set, but that's not the overall gist of what I see in competitive MtG decks. They usually contain much more than 4 mythics and 8 rares (in fact I often find it easier to count how many are common and uncommon, because these 2 types are the less used in competitive decks).

Parzival
01-30-2014, 10:48 PM
Dan you King has started you off with 2 legendaries already :D plus a primal pack for a good shot at a third and maybe fourth.

Personally I don't understand competitive PVP players, I left MTG long ago before it stopped becoming a fun hobby and became a sport but hey it's what makes them happy, I respect that.

Again I think it's what you want to get out of HEX, Casual game? Hobby? Competitive sport?

tautologico
01-30-2014, 10:51 PM
The current estimated price for getting a full Hearthstone playset (plus more extra cards to disenchant) is about $1000. Just recently a guy opened 840 packs on twitch and got everything plus cards to spare. It does not seem to ever get to 2k, and in most cases should cost less than 1k.

DanTheMeek
01-30-2014, 10:53 PM
Okay so then, because I'm in a mathy mood (is that a thing?) lets try to make some estimates on a top tournament deck using the legendaries and rares everyone's chasing. We're going to throw out Tarmogoyf and his 100 price tags as a basline as he's really more of an exception then a rule, though its not impossible hex could see something similar, but rather then assume the worst I'm going to go more along the lines of Liliana of the Veil, Vendilion Clique, Dark Confidant, and the like which have gone for around 45-60 per card. Magic has 1 mythic per 8 packs to Hexs proposed 1 per 11, and magics sets are usually much smaller then set 1 of Hex will be so getting a specific mythic in magic is probably much MUCH easier then its going to get to get a specific legendary in hex. Despite that, hex does have the fact that its packs are half the price of magics going for them, so lets compromise and say top must have legendaries go for around 30-50 dollars in hex, or on average, 40 bucks. Now lets say we need 2 play-sets of legendaries,3 rares, 2 uncommons, 2 common. Again that's 36 cards and 24 resources. There are some really REALLY good commons that have been revealed so I don't think having two playsets of commons even in top decks is that far fetched. Now lets say that these desirable rares go for about 8 bucks each cause these are the ones everyone wants and getting specific rares in a set this big, with such a large portion of said set being rares, will still be difficult. We'll stick with the same prices for the uncommon and commons, 50 cents and 5 cents respectively.

40x8 = 320 for Legendaries
8x12 = 96 for Rares
.50 x 8 = 4 for uncommons
.05 x 8 = .20 for commons

So thats 420.20 for a top tier pro deck if you buy them the cheap way (aka, off the auction house instead of spending a couple grand trying to pull them from packs).

Still just pure theorycrafting, I'm no market analyst, and this market will be REALLY hard to gauge compared to magic for a number of reasons, and thus this deck could still end up being a heck of a lot cheaper then that, but even if you cut the value of everything in half (yep, even the commons down to 2 and a half cents), that's a hefty 210.10, so yeah, I would not necessarily play this game for the PvP unless you have a good chunk of money, and you're easily parted with it (not unlike most card games sadly...).

That said, you don't HAVE to play the best deck to have fun in pvp, which is why I gave my previous total as more of a baseline cost to expect to pay if you just want to build the optimal version of your preferred theme, even if the theme itself isn't considered top tier.

tautologico
01-30-2014, 10:57 PM
I think around $400 for a top deck is more realistic (it's in the ballpark of MtG decks, but as you said MtG sets are smaller and mythics are more common). I think with better markets in HEX the price will probably be lower than that, and it also depends on demand, so my not-completely-wild guess would be maybe $200 for a top deck.

Chark
01-30-2014, 10:59 PM
Yeah, I guess I'll probably just stick with Hearthstone. $300 gets me every card. I just don't understand the ploy of spending thousands on this things. I can play Fantasy Flight LCG's for no cost investment at all and get all the cards.

I haven't ran the numbers of a single set of all HS cards, but by my estimates chances of getting every card for $300 (240 packs) are pretty low. Here is a very good analysis on HS and acquiring a playset of everything:

http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/2013/10/10/from-dust-to-dust-the-economy-of-hearthstone/
(tldr; If you bought it all with cash, 512 packs would be $642 at the best bulk rate in the in-game store. Any daily quest for 40 coins will save 50 cents off of this, and any Play mode win will save 4.17 cents. In other words, a full card set can be valued at any proportionate mix of $640, 1280 daily quests, or 15630 Play mode wins.)


The thing about Trading Card Games is that they have to be tradable. For that some subset of cards has to be hard to acquire (and therefore is valuable). Comparing HearthStone's price tag or FFG's LCGs to Hex is comparing apples to oranges. The first has hard-to-acquire cards but does not allow trading with anyone other then the house (and the house has a pretty good edge: 1:4, iirc). The other does not have hard-to-acquire cards (you just buy all of them for a set price).

One of the things we are trying to do is to make sure that there is a secondary market value to the cards you own (similar to other paper TCGs, for example). That means that some cards are worth money. There are a couple of mechanisms available to us to make sure that the extreme ends of the spectrum of card prices are pushed more toward the middle (one of those for example is the crafting system). In the end TCGs are about opening packs and opening 15 cards that are worth 13.3 cents each is just not that fun.

tautologico
01-30-2014, 10:59 PM
Actually $1000 for a Hearthstone playset is probably too much, the guy who opened 840 packs got 17 extra legendaries and 105 extra epics.

mach
01-30-2014, 11:00 PM
TCG's are definitely not for everyone. It's okay.

Personally I prefer it when my metagames are not distorted by players with budget decks. So even if you have enough money for everything, decks being too expensive will affect you.

At any rate, there are so many unknowns at this point. How big sets will be and how often they're released will have a huge impact. How popular Limited is will also be important, as players opening packs for Limited will be a big source of cards for Constructed.

JCourtney
01-30-2014, 11:03 PM
$300 in Hearthstone will get you all the playable Legendary cards. The rest are a joke, but you can grind for them for FREE.

DanTheMeek
01-30-2014, 11:07 PM
Dan you King has started you off with 2 legendaries already :D plus a primal pack for a good shot at a third and maybe fourth.

Personally I don't understand competitive PVP players, I left MTG long ago before it stopped becoming a fun hobby and became a sport but hey it's what makes them happy, I respect that.

Again I think it's what you want to get out of HEX, Casual game? Hobby? Competitive sport?

True Parzival on all accounts. I some times forget my king tier came with more then just packs, but again, I was more focused on how much I could afford to donate to the cause then what I was getting out of it at the time. We'll see how those bonuses help things, but I still feel for any non-backer who doesn't have any of those bonuses. I guess on the flip side, its us backers who will likely be filling up the auction house and bidding each other down to allow new players the chance to just pick the cards they want off there instead of having to deal with the crazy odds set 1 is going to feature.

As some one who literally lived off my weekly card game winnings to fund both my future tournaments and all of my entertainment expenses for years, I can say competitive PvP is a heck of a lot of fun when your'e winning cause you're prizes keep the price down for you, its not a cost but an investment. That said, I did eventually become a casual player because of exactly what you said, I realized one day it had stopped being fun and had become a job, and there were much easier, much more efficient, and much more consistent ways to make money if thats all I was in it for anymore. Once I started playing casually again, however, I rediscovered my love of the game. Still, its not so much that I have to spend big to be competitive that irks me in online tcgs, its that I have to spend big to access all of the game content. I buy games off steam all the team that have hundreds of hours of enjoyable content, both single player and multiplayer, often from less then 5 bucks. I routinely spend over 100 dollars on sets of cards in card games and still don't get a full playset of everything, still can't play every single deck type, there's still a portion of the game thats blocked off to me, and that just doesn't seem right. But its a tradition, and one many people have been trained to not only accept, but support, so nothing I can really do. And again, I backed more for the PvE anyway, which supposed will be 100% free to people, so as long as PvP's chocolate can keep itself out of my PvE's peanut butter, we can all have fun spending what we think is fair for the content we're receiving.

JCourtney
01-30-2014, 11:47 PM
After play Netrunner with Fantasy Flights Living Card game model... It just seems idiotic to keep buying hundreds of dollars worth of cards and still not have everything and then turn around and spend hundreds of dollars more when the next set comes.

Living Card Game model is where it's at as far as value and having everyone on equal footing.

Pretty sure most TCG players do it just for the peen of pwning casuals who have spent less.

Gwaer
01-30-2014, 11:55 PM
I have netrunner, and the lcg model is interesting, I do not prefer it over at TCG though. Different strokes for different folks.

Jinxies
01-31-2014, 12:21 AM
Opening packs to get a playset has never ever been a good method. Buying individual cards is so much cheaper.

ossuary
01-31-2014, 06:14 AM
Also, just for the record, while DanTheMeek's math is accurate, it's not the whole story. NOBODY tries to make a complete set just by opening thousands of packs until the random number generator gives them 4 of everything. Because that's retarded. That's what trading is for. There will always be someone who got too many of something and is willing to sell it. Why buy 50 more packs HOPING to luck into that last chase rare, when you can just pay someone else $12 for it and be done?

Besides, you don't need a whole set to play the game, and you also don't have to build a deck of entirely legendaries to be competitive. Certainly legendary cards tend to do more than a standard card, but there are perfectly competitive strategies that you can build on the cheap. That's the beauty of a well-made TCG.

RobHaven
01-31-2014, 07:23 AM
NOBODY tries to make a complete set just by opening thousands of packs until the random number generator gives them 4 of everything. Because that's retarded. That's what trading is for. There will always be someone who got too many of something and is willing to sell it. Why buy 50 more packs HOPING to luck into that last chase rare, when you can just pay someone else $12 for it and be done?
new card/pack opening smell > saving money

ossuary
01-31-2014, 07:26 AM
Sure, for the first 20 packs or so... but the 200th? It's not exactly "new" anymore... more like sore fingers syndrome. :)

mach
01-31-2014, 08:02 AM
Interestingly, Hex is effectively an LCG at the moment. You pay your $50 and you get a playset of everything.

I wonder how many people will be disappointed when Alpha ends.

DanTheMeek
01-31-2014, 08:18 AM
One of the things we are trying to do is to make sure that there is a secondary market value to the cards you own (similar to other paper TCGs, for example). That means that some cards are worth money. There are a couple of mechanisms available to us to make sure that the extreme ends of the spectrum of card prices are pushed more toward the middle (one of those for example is the crafting system). In the end TCGs are about opening packs and opening 15 cards that are worth 13.3 cents each is just not that fun.

This all makes sense, and I certainly don't blame Cryptozoic for going that route, it was made clear back in the kickstarter that you intended for this to be a TCG and not a LCG. Personally I prefer the latter as well, not unlike JCourtney, but no LCGs are focused on making an amazing mmo single player experience that I'm aware of, and thats what hex is banking everything on will set it apart.

I guess the frustration for me is that, if you want you're cards to have value, you don't play hex, you play MTGO where everything is super expensive and you can convert them into real cards, and the game-play is largely the same but the community is larger and more established. Trying to make hex cards into another currency targets those who would monetize card games and those with gambling addictions, and LCGs have shown a card game can absolutely be successful with out either of those two parties involved (not that some one with a gambling issue can't still play LCGs but they're not playing it for that rush of opening that card thats worth 40 dollars, whilst remaining ignorant of the fact that it took them 100 dollars worth of packs to get to that card). This is why the initial pitch for me on the PvE side is what attracted me, not cause it was free (if I was broke I wouldn't have backed the game for as much as I did), but because it was supposedly separate from PvP, so while I disliked the PvP business model chosen, the PvE could exist in a separate world where you could get that rush of pulling rare or better cards but its not costing you money nor effecting the other players around me in any meaningful negative way.

In an ideal game for me, the PvP side is LCG style, its pay for entry but once you pay, everyones on even foot, then the pve side where you get you're gamblers rush as you flip out when you open a PvE pack and its got that completely unbalanced super card that everyone wants but is in one out of every 1000 packs. I feel like the LCG style for PvP breeds a more e-sports mentatlity of fun but fairness for all, while PvE is just purely about the fun.

But again, thats not what Hex is about, and thats fine, I'm going to continue to push this game with friends based on the PvE (or right now for temporarily free infinite sealed games during alpha) and for those who are tired with playing the market in MTGO, they can play the same market here in Hex's PvP world to try to turn a profit. Everyone has different goals and enjoys different things, and my opinions are no more valid then anyone elses when it comes to what makes a good PvP experience. Doesn't mean I won't share my opinion anyway though.

Disordia
01-31-2014, 08:38 AM
After play Netrunner with Fantasy Flights Living Card game model... It just seems idiotic to keep buying hundreds of dollars worth of cards and still not have everything and then turn around and spend hundreds of dollars more when the next set comes.

Living Card Game model is where it's at as far as value and having everyone on equal footing.

Pretty sure most TCG players do it just for the peen of pwning casuals who have spent less.

Sure an LCG is much cheaper to get into and play than a TCG. Don't expect a huge competitive scene as compared to what a TCG can produce. The buy and sell of cards is what funds the competitive scene for a game. All the LCGs you named have maybe a handful of tournaments with paltry payouts compared to what the magic or wow tcg games could generate.

That's your trade-off. TCGs have a much better competitive scene because they can afford it, while LCGs are, in contrast, very affordable to get into and play.

Also try to avoid the petty, misguided insults, unless you want people to not bother to give your thoughts and opinions the time of day.

SomeoneRandom
01-31-2014, 08:53 AM
stuff about things...

Let me preface this by saying I have played a lot of LCGs and I still think that the Game of Thrones LCG is the best card game that has been produced. (I am going to say some bad things about LCGs now :P)

The problem with LCGs is that it actually breeds a more casual environment. LCGs have less cards being produced, which means in general the formats are eternal which gets dull fast. It is very hard for a format that has hundreds to thousands of cards being changed much by a 15 card chapter pack or whatever the particular franchise calls them. Most of the people that would compete on a high level have no issue spending 300-500 dollars each set to keep up to date, in reality it is only a hundred or so a month. The cost is dwarfed by any sort of travel costs for only a single tournament.

On top of that LCGs make it impossible to cash out meaning you lose a lot of players simply because they won't invest in the game. Some of the people I know who play MTG have EDH decks worth almost 5 figures, much less their whole collection. A friend of mine has a couple sets of mint alpha/beta duals and power 9 in a bank lock box to buy a house with eventually. Then there are players who will buy in on a single deck, play for a few months then cash out into another deck. None of these things are possible with an LCG.

Now you mentioned liking the rush of getting that 1/1000 pack card in PvE while putting down the people who like opening the money cards in packs. To me it is all the same thing, and actually much worse in the PvE side of things IMO (despite liking the idea of PvE). To get that 1/1000 card you had to put in countless hours of grinding the same thing over and over. Where if some of that time was spent earning money at a job you could have bought the card you wanted and gotten back to the fun of playing the game rather than grinding ;) Different people want different things though.

Yoss
01-31-2014, 11:04 AM
@Dan:
Please do not use the term "pay to win" in regards to Hex, because it is extremely missleading. "Pay to win" implies that money can buy in-game stuff that cannot otherwise be obtained. In Hex, money will not buy you anything that time cannot also buy for you (except for the Raid Leader bonuses), therefore it is not "pay to win" or even "pay to play". You're right that a legendary equipment might take you 20 hours of PVE to find/earn, while at the AH someone can just buy it for $1 worth of Plat, but so what? Did you have fun for those 20 hours of PVE or not? If you had fun, then why are you complaining? If you didn't have fun, then why are you playing?

As far as PVP cost, I expect it to be very inexpensive for anything below Tier 1 competitive Constructed. Buying VIP plus playing 1 draft a week works out to about $30 per month (assuming you're smart enough to bring your own packs to the Draft rather than paying retail at the door, and assuming you NEVER win), and is about the most I'd expect the average player to spend. If you win an average amount (equal chance at each place from 1st through 8th) then your cost should be down to around $15 per month, which is what WoW costs. From there, you just trade on the AH with the cards you're getting out of drafting. I budget $100 a month for my MTG hobby, and I find that is more than enough for me to build fun decks from cards that Spike isn't interested in. Of my ~40 MTG decks, only a couple cost me more than $30 to build, and I rarely lose games at the kitchen table.

BlackRoger
01-31-2014, 11:15 AM
On top of that LCGs make it impossible to cash out meaning you lose a lot of players simply because they won't invest in the game. Some of the people I know who play MTG have EDH decks worth almost 5 figures, much less their whole collection. A friend of mine has a couple sets of mint alpha/beta duals and power 9 in a bank lock box to buy a house with eventually. Then there are players who will buy in on a single deck, play for a few months then cash out into another deck. None of these things are possible with an LCG.


Agree with you on your point about the eternal formats.

Disagree about value of cards being an advantage for the TCG.
If you don't spend thousands of dollars on a card game, you usually aren't worried about not being able to cash out.
I have around 15 board/card games in my house and I'm not worried one bit that I can't "Cash out" on them.
I keep them there for when I have friends over.

Gwaer
01-31-2014, 11:34 AM
As someone who has made orders of magnitude more on magic collection than they spent. I respectfully disagree. I know I'm not the only one in that position either. The collectors value is the biggest draw to a TCG, that money you're spending being an investment is incredibly important. I worry hex will not be able to capture that since it's digital, but I hope that isn't the case. The value of the cards is incredibly important to a TCG.

Leingod
01-31-2014, 11:52 AM
Pretty sure most TCG players do it just for the peen of pwning casuals who have spent less.

Nice to see you were never interested in the game in the first place lol. Watch your step, the drop must be pretty far off that high horse.

SomeoneRandom
01-31-2014, 12:24 PM
Agree with you on your point about the eternal formats.

Disagree about value of cards being an advantage for the TCG.
If you don't spend thousands of dollars on a card game, you usually aren't worried about not being able to cash out.
I have around 15 board/card games in my house and I'm not worried one bit that I can't "Cash out" on them.
I keep them there for when I have friends over.

I have spent around 800-1000 on Game of Thrones.(Which is a very low amount considering I have more than the max allowable in a deck for every set up until I quit) I could get maybe 100-200 for my collection if I found just the right person. LCGs aren't really something you "keep around the house for when friends come over" don't get me wrong, I have plenty of board games for that. However, for something like a card game that has a lot of its fun packed into theorycrafting, tweaking and creating decks there isn't much value to keep lots of decks sitting around on the off chance someone who doesn't play wants to get trounced in a LCG match.

Having value in the product opens a lot of avenues like fostering a competitive scene and making people care about their collection. I find that there is a very small section of people that can't have fun with something like MTG because of money. For the most part people are willing to spend the money or they have enough fun with the small slice of cards they do spend money on.

Yoss
01-31-2014, 01:30 PM
I want to highlight this little bit...

For the most part people ... have enough fun with the small slice of cards they do spend money on.

Lawlschool
01-31-2014, 02:16 PM
Interestingly, Hex is effectively an LCG at the moment. You pay your $50 and you get a playset of everything.

I wonder how many people will be disappointed when Alpha ends.

Hopefully 0. We all knew going in to Alpha that the full playset is for Alpha only.

Mahes
01-31-2014, 02:20 PM
Cards in Hex will never get as expensive as Magic. The alternate art cards might have higher appeal but even that will have limitations.

As I have discussed before and will so briefly again, value is directly related to Real Money Tournaments. If this game explodes and there are 25k tournaments multiple times a year then cards will have a descent value that revolves around their success in a competitive deck. Until we see how tournaments shape up, it will be difficult to gauge value anymore than a few dollars for a card simply because there is nothing to really be gained from it. The very best deck with legendaries can always lose, so why pay a lot for them if the prize is not worth the investment?

Yoss
01-31-2014, 02:45 PM
"While Alpha Testing Tournaments, NOBODY can hear you scream!!"

LOL! Nice sig, Mahes. Except for me, my wife can hear it. :D

Banquetto
01-31-2014, 03:29 PM
I haven't ran the numbers of a single set of all HS cards, but by my estimates chances of getting every card for $300 (150 packs) are pretty low. Here is a very good analysis on HS and acquiring a playset of everything:

http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/2013/10/10/from-dust-to-dust-the-economy-of-hearthstone/
(tldr; takes about $1019 (512 packs) to get a playset of all HS cards)

Please tell me this wasn't deliberate, but that is a severe misrepresentation of the price of your competitor's product, Chark.

512 Hearthstone packs does not cost $1019. Hearthstone packs sell for 40 packs per $50.

If you actually want to provide a TL;DR summary of that blog post, here's the significant paragraph quoted:

If you bought it all with cash, 512 packs would be $640 at the best bulk rate in the in-game store. Any daily quest for 40 coins will save 50 cents off of this, and any Play mode win will save 4.17 cents. In other words, a full card set can be valued at any proportionate mix of $640, 1280 daily quests, or 15630 Play mode wins.

Chark
01-31-2014, 04:48 PM
Please tell me this wasn't deliberate, but that is a severe misrepresentation of the price of your competitor's product, Chark.

512 Hearthstone packs does not cost $1019. Hearthstone packs sell for 40 packs per $50.

If you actually want to provide a TL;DR summary of that blog post, here's the significant paragraph quoted:

If you bought it all with cash, 512 packs would be $640 at the best bulk rate in the in-game store. Any daily quest for 40 coins will save 50 cents off of this, and any Play mode win will save 4.17 cents. In other words, a full card set can be valued at any proportionate mix of $640, 1280 daily quests, or 15630 Play mode wins.

Sorry, I guess I should have looked at the bulk discount rates. Adjusting original post. Not intended to misrepresent. Just correcting the misconception that HS is $300 dollars for a set of cards.

DanTheMeek
01-31-2014, 05:10 PM
Cards in Hex will never get as expensive as Magic. The alternate art cards might have higher appeal but even that will have limitations.

As I have discussed before and will so briefly again, value is directly related to Real Money Tournaments. If this game explodes and there are 25k tournaments multiple times a year then cards will have a descent value that revolves around their success in a competitive deck. Until we see how tournaments shape up, it will be difficult to gauge value anymore than a few dollars for a card simply because there is nothing to really be gained from it. The very best deck with legendaries can always lose, so why pay a lot for them if the prize is not worth the investment?

Eh, I don't know, one of my friends got me into a phone game called Fantasica. Not a game I'd recommend by the way, but its a true Pay to Win in the most literal sense (incidentally I hate throwing around the term Pay to win in regard to hex, and appologize for it Yoss, its just how do you WIN in PvE? By having the best loot? If so, then if you can buy the loot with real money off the auction house it is pay to win. If you win by beating some boss, does the boss require the best loot to be beaten? Does it not, but does the fight become trivially easy if you have the best loot? I don't think the term is completely out of place here, but I know it has harsh negative connotations that I didn't intend.)

Anyway back on what I was saying, fantasica isn't an e-sport, its not a game you win cash prizes in (to my knowledge anyway), but the cards in it go from anywhere from a dollar to 1000 dollars per card on the secondary market. Why? Heck if I know, but if you make something really rare and really expensive to acquire, and its desirable, there are apparently people who will pay out the nose to get them, even if the card itself isn't going to win you any money, only meaningless games against people who are losing largely because they spent less money then you did. Thankfully Hex is following in MTGs foot steps of aiming for overall balance, so while some legendaries are game changers, the sort of cards you want 4 of to build a deck around, they are not necessarily BETTER then lesser rarity cards. Games that do that are the ones that upset me the most (I'm looking at you Score and every card game you ever made).

There is still an X factor to this whole conversation that is kind of unfair to Hex but also their own doing since we don't have any information on it to provide to people like JCourtney, but we don't really know how crafting will work in regards to PvP cards. With the rates being what they seem to be, I expect anyone who opens a lot of packs is going to find themselves with hundreds of copies of the same commons, and I think its safe to say they will have slightly greater then zero sell or trade value on the AH, so what will players be able to do with them? Hopefully crafting allows the player who buys packs, instead of just picking and choosing the cards he wants off the auction house, to turn all those extra other wise worthless commons into something of value. The treasure boxes with packs are already a great step, but it'd be nice to have other features to encourage opening packs.

Cause one of the harshest lessons most new card game players learn if they stick with a tcg long enough, is that opening packs, one of the funnest things in the world, is also one of the stupidest things you can ever do. In nearly every card game I've ever played it was wisest to just buy what you wanted from the secondary market for a fraction of the price, then to actually open packs, EVEN if you didn't have anything in particular you really wanted. It'd be nice to have a legitimately good reason to buy packs then just because they are required to enter drafts.

Lawlschool
01-31-2014, 06:26 PM
People will definitely shell out tons of money for an edge, or just for something unique. Wasn't there some Diablo III item that went for a few thousand, and I think I recall hearing about a really rare alt-color pack mule going for an absurd amount on Dota II. While your every day rares and legendaries likely won't be worth too much, it's entirely possible that we'll see some high priced items thanks to the AA and double-backs.

As for crafting, I think (though I don't want to start unsubstantiated rumors) that they do intend to let us vendor / break down cards through the "Void Society" NPCs in order to get crafting materials. I'm really hoping they have a pretty robust crafting system, since that's honestly one of my favorite parts about MMOs.

And as for Packs, though cracking them isn't the best choice economically, CZE has added some incentives to make buying and opening them still fun. There's the Treasure Chests with random goodies inside (and during conventions, they will have con prizes inside!), the chance at Primal Packs if you buy from the store, and of course the VIP program is a great way to get some cheap boosters.

ossuary
01-31-2014, 08:24 PM
Eh, I don't know, one of my friends got me into a phone game called Fantasica. Not a game I'd recommend by the way, but its a true Pay to Win in the most literal sense (incidentally I hate throwing around the term Pay to win in regard to hex, and appologize for it Yoss, its just how do you WIN in PvE? By having the best loot? If so, then if you can buy the loot with real money off the auction house it is pay to win. If you win by beating some boss, does the boss require the best loot to be beaten? Does it not, but does the fight become trivially easy if you have the best loot? I don't think the term is completely out of place here, but I know it has harsh negative connotations that I didn't intend.)

Pay to Win usually means you can pay money to directly buy power. Often, power that is completely excluded to non-payers.

The reason Hex is not Pay to Win, even on the PVE side, is because you can earn your new cards and gear through effort, not just throwing down cash. Paying extra money would give you an advantage or save you time, certainly, but it's not a guaranteed win. Skill is still a very large factor.

Pay to Win games either make not paying players exponentially weaker than paying ones (no matter what the free players do), or the game is literally impossible to finish without paying money.

It has negative connotations because it IS negative... but Hex isn't Pay to Win. :)

BlackRoger
02-01-2014, 06:38 AM
Pay to Win usually means you can pay money to directly buy power. Often, power that is completely excluded to non-payers.

The reason Hex is not Pay to Win, even on the PVE side, is because you can earn your new cards and gear through effort, not just throwing down cash. Paying extra money would give you an advantage or save you time, certainly, but it's not a guaranteed win. Skill is still a very large factor.

Pay to Win games either make not paying players exponentially weaker than paying ones (no matter what the free players do), or the game is literally impossible to finish without paying money.

It has negative connotations because it IS negative... but Hex isn't Pay to Win. :)

I agree that Hex will likely not be pay to win.
However, stating so with such confidence is misleading, we still don't know enough many important elements:
1) What will really be the strengh difference between pve and pvp cards?
2) How hard will it be to do pve without the pvp cards?
4) How long will you have to grind pve to get to the hardest content?

Hopefully, CZE will do a good job of balancing pve to not make it feel like a you have to spend money.
However its not such an easy thing to get right that we can just assume they will succeed.
Time will tell.

Jinxies
02-01-2014, 06:50 AM
I agree that Hex will likely not be pay to win.
However, stating so with such confidence is misleading, we still don't know enough many important elements:
1) What will really be the strengh difference between pve and pvp cards?
2) How hard will it be to do pve without the pvp cards?
4) How long will you have to grind pve to get to the hardest content?

Hopefully, CZE will do a good job of balancing pve to not make it feel like a you have to spend money.
However its not such an easy thing to get right that we can just assume they will succeed.
Time will tell.

1) Everything we have seen so far suggest that PvE cards are vastly superior to PvP cards overall.
2) Everything we've seen and heard so far suggest this isn't going to be a problem
4) Not sure what that has to do with anything.

ossuary
02-01-2014, 08:44 AM
Cory has specifically said that PVE is balanced so that you can start with your starter deck and play through the entire game and all its content without ever spending a dime, if you're so inclined.

Coming in with additional PVP cards (or buying packs of them along the way) will flesh out your collection and give you more options, maybe let you jump ahead in power a little more quickly, but it is by no means required.

Probably you would have to do at least some grinding in there if you are looking for specific equipment to make a deck more powerful, or if you want multiple copies of a certain card for the same reason, but what free game DOESN'T have grinding? Or what MMO or vanilla RPG in general, for that matter? :)

Lawlschool
02-01-2014, 11:26 AM
Cory has specifically said that PVE is balanced so that you can start with your starter deck and play through the entire game and all its content without ever spending a dime, if you're so inclined.

Exactly. It's designed to be like any other MMO in this regard, except instead of getting better gear, you get better cards. The Starter Deck is just supposed to be liker starter gear, and as you progress through PvE content you get better and better cards to make increasingly powerful decks. It's probably not advisable to use PvP decks in PvE, given the vast differences in power. It'd be like running dungeons or raids in PvP gear; functional, but not close to optimal.

mach
02-01-2014, 12:31 PM
Exactly. It's designed to be like any other MMO in this regard, except instead of getting better gear, you get better cards. The Starter Deck is just supposed to be liker starter gear, and as you progress through PvE content you get better and better cards to make increasingly powerful decks. It's probably not advisable to use PvP decks in PvE, given the vast differences in power. It'd be like running dungeons or raids in PvP gear; functional, but not close to optimal.

The wrong type of gear being better is a classic problem for MMO designers and not an easy one to solve.

For example, I can see a fast PvP combo deck absolutely wrecking PvE dungeons and even raids, since the AI doesn't know how to disrupt it.

Lawlschool
02-01-2014, 12:42 PM
The wrong type of gear being better is a classic problem for MMO designers and not an easy one to solve.

For example, I can see a fast PvP combo deck absolutely wrecking PvE dungeons and even raids, since the AI doesn't know how to disrupt it.

Fair enough, but what's your point? That's a possibility, but if it was a problem it could likely be solved by making some adjustments to the AI. Doesn't change the fact that PvP cards and spending money on boosters aren't required to progress through and enjoy PvE.

mach
02-01-2014, 01:32 PM
Fair enough, but what's your point? That's a possibility, but if it was a problem it could likely be solved by making some adjustments to the AI. Doesn't change the fact that PvP cards and spending money on boosters aren't required to progress through and enjoy PvE.

This kind of thing causes problems in other MMOs. I don't see why it wouldn't here as well.

For example, how are you going to balance things? If you can progress through PvE without spending any money, it will be absolutely trivial for anyone who does spend money.

Additionally, if PvE cards can't be used in PvP and PvP cards are as good or better in PvE, gold and PvE cards are going to be worth very, very little. You may be able to spend $10 on plat and use that to get the best possible PvE deck. In other words, there really won't be a PvE economy.

Maphalux
02-01-2014, 01:35 PM
From what I understand, pve cards are going to be much higher in power level than pvp cards. I'd imagine, if that's true, it would be rare for a pvp card to be a better choice over a pve card when playing the campaign. Though I'm sure there will be some powerful synergies that could see some pvp cards making their way into pve decks.

Lawlschool
02-01-2014, 02:15 PM
This kind of thing causes problems in other MMOs. I don't see why it wouldn't here as well.

For example, how are you going to balance things? If you can progress through PvE without spending any money, it will be absolutely trivial for anyone who does spend money.

Additionally, if PvE cards can't be used in PvP and PvP cards are as good or better in PvE, gold and PvE cards are going to be worth very, very little. You may be able to spend $10 on plat and use that to get the best possible PvE deck. In other words, there really won't be a PvE economy.

Those are legit concerns, but I think they're concerns CZE is well aware of and has planned around. Because PvE doesn't have to be balanced in the same way as PvP, the PvE cards are going to be much more powerful, and will likely be the better choice. Plus, they'll probably be more "fun" to play, so there's that. Take a look at some of the spoiled PvE cards, they're absolutely broken.

And you can already progress through PvE content in other games by spending money, though it's usually in-game money. Back when I played WoW, I'd usually deck my alts out in the best gear I could find off the AH in order to grind to end-game asap. The question you're not asking is, "Why progress through PvE at all?" In MMOs, it's either about the journey and not the destination (in which case progression is enjoyable for the sake of progression so triviality isn't an issue), or it's about the end-game content. You're right that IF PvP cards are as good as PvE and IF you can just buy a top-tier raiding deck from the AH, that would be problematic for the end game. But those are very big ifs, and I'm sure CZE is aware of that (and has stated or at least implied that PvP cards won't be good for PvE).

There are plenty of very simple ways around this potential problem, and they're not really complex. All you have to do is to make end game impossible to do with pure PvP decks, and have some key PvE card drops be account bound and unsellable. This ensures that in order to progress through PvE content, you actually have to play PvE content. This was the big mistake that Diablo III made, and what WoW does right. In D3, you could cheaply buy gear off the AH that was better than what you were finding, meaning the loot-pinata incentive was removed and all you were doing was grinding away. Corey not-so-subtly even called this out in one of his interviews (I think it was at DragonCon? There's a vid somewhere), so they're well aware of needing incentives to keep playing in PvE. That's where WoW gets it right. There are lots of pieces of high-quality gear you can buy to get your foot in the door to raiding, but in order to progress further you actually had to raid for the best gear (not to mention, those pieces of gear you could buy tended to be very very expensive and could only be obtained or crafted by people who were raiding in the first place).

I assume Hex will follow a similar model. You can buy your way through content, but only to a point, and doing so will actually be expensive.

Shivdaddy
02-01-2014, 05:43 PM
Its going to be less than half of what MTGO cost to play.

tautologico
02-01-2014, 08:24 PM
There are plenty of very simple ways around this potential problem, and they're not really complex.

That's the thing, I don't believe it's that simple. Actually I think balancing all aspects of a game as ambitious as HEX is quite complex. Not the least because in such a complex system the designer simply can't anticipate the results of all her decisions, and the consequences will become apparent only when the game is live.

I'm not saying these things are impossible to solve, but I agree with mach that these are complex problems and no amount of good intention is enough to automatically solve them (remember that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"). We'll have to see how things develop.

mach
02-01-2014, 08:50 PM
That's the thing, I don't believe it's that simple. Actually I think balancing all aspects of a game as ambitious as HEX is quite complex. Not the least because in such a complex system the designer simply can't anticipate the results of all her decisions, and the consequences will become apparent only when the game is live.

I'm not saying these things are impossible to solve, but I agree with mach that these are complex problems and no amount of good intention is enough to automatically solve them (remember that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"). We'll have to see how things develop.

Exactly. This is why I get worried when I hear that the bulk of PvE is not going to be here until very late beta or release. We need the entire system in place for testing before it is too late to make major changes.

ossuary
02-01-2014, 11:16 PM
But the thing is, they CAN make major changes to the PVE or the AI as required. If a combo of PVP cards proves too powerful for PVE somehow, they'll just retool the dungeon it's being exploited on, or "teach" the AI how to recognize and defeat that combo.

Also, some of the NPC only cards are absolutely INSANE, even more so than the standard PVE cards. Just look at Ruby Golem:
http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/RubyGolem-215x300.png

He starts out as a simple enough 4/3 for 4... except for the part that if you don't kill him immediately, he becomes TWO 4/3s on the next turn. Then the turn after that, he's suddenly FOUR 4/3s. And if you still can't / don't kill any of them, next he's 8 troops, and then 16... the avalanche will mow you down pretty quick. How can a PVP card compete with stuff like that?

mach
02-01-2014, 11:30 PM
But the thing is, they CAN make major changes to the PVE or the AI as required. If a combo of PVP cards proves too powerful for PVE somehow, they'll just retool the dungeon it's being exploited on, or "teach" the AI how to recognize and defeat that combo.


Late beta/post-release is not when you want to be making major changes to game systems.



Also, some of the NPC only cards are absolutely INSANE, even more so than the standard PVE cards. Just look at Ruby Golem:
http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/RubyGolem-215x300.png

He starts out as a simple enough 4/3 for 4... except for the part that if you don't kill him immediately, he becomes TWO 4/3s on the next turn. Then the turn after that, he's suddenly FOUR 4/3s. And if you still can't / don't kill any of them, next he's 8 troops, and then 16... the avalanche will mow you down pretty quick. How can a PVP card compete with stuff like that?

By killing the opponent before then.