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Refugee
02-04-2014, 10:51 AM
Hi Cory it's me. We met at Gencon, shared a nice dinner with some fantastic people and chatted a bit outside the Westin (I think) while you smoked. I don't expect you to remember any of that but I wanted to disarm you with a bit of familiar reminiscence.

Cory, I really like Hex. Well actually, I want to like Hex. I don't really play very much because the parts I want to play (the tournament queues) don't work very well. Since they don't work very well people don't use them very often and thus I can't play them. That's ok though, I'm confident you guys will get them working soon.

The thing is this Cory. I'm a little worried. See I have overflowing confidence that you guys can make a good game. I never played the WoWTCG but people seem pretty enthusiastic about it. Plus you guys have been making games for awhile now so I'm sure you've learned a few things by now. What worries me is that I don't think you guys have made digital games have you? And well... things don't seem to be going all that smoothly. On the kickstarter beta is said to start in September of last year and we're quite a ways past that and it feels like there's quite a ways to go still. I'm willing to wait but it'd be good to know how long that wait is going to be. Obviously all of us want something that is reasonably polished and functions well before the userbase is expanded so I'm not pushing for things to be rushed at all. But I'd also really like some assurances that things aren't falling apart behind the scenes.

So here's my request princess. Do an AMA, or a comprehensive update, do an interview on good morning America, something to let us know how things are going. Not "Our engineers continue to squash tournament bugs while the developers tune the first PvE dungeon". I'm looking for something in depth. Give me, "The engineers identified a bug which caused users to hang while loading the tournament page. We think we've got that one fixed for the next patch deploy. As discussed in the previous update there was a bug related to decks not being saved during sealed deck construction. Fixing that bug has proved to be more difficult than anticipated. We're still working on it but we can't promise it'll be fixed in the next patch. Behind the scenes we've made some significant progress in speeding up response time so gameplay should feel snappier. Meanwhile the team in charge of the draft client is just about ready for deployment and we've begun to move resources into polishing our rough internal version of the auction house. Meanwhile sourcing the art for set two is nearly complete and we've revamped the deck building screen for increases usability etc etc etc."

Tell me what's going right and what's going wrong Cory. Because honestly we put a lot of faith and money into this and every week that passes that things still don't work very well concerns me.

All that said I do have faith that Hex is going to turn out to be a great game. The only question in my mind is whether it's going to be sooner or later.

Patiently Yours,
Me

mudkip
02-04-2014, 11:03 AM
More information isn't going to make Hex come any quicker.

I hope CZE keep what they're doing and only give us updates on something solid.

Gwaer
02-04-2014, 11:21 AM
I remember you, if it makes you feel better? =)

I'm certain we will get all of the things you asked for a bit closer to open beta.

bojanglesz
02-04-2014, 11:31 AM
+1

Cory_Jones
02-04-2014, 12:00 PM
I would love to do a Q&A. I have tried to be super accessible, and I love talking about the game.

The one thing to keep in mind is that I am serving the larger vision of what this game can be. Even from day one of most people learning about HEX via the Kickstarter, it was about this crazy idea. It was a game no one was making but a passionate group of us REALLY wanted. That game isn’t simple to make, hell maybe there was a reason no one was making it… because it soooo hard. I have mentioned it a few times now— we are not in a race. I don’t care what other games are doing, those games are NOT our competitors, we have an entirely different destination mapped out, and NO ONE is going to the place we are heading. It’s totally uncharted waters. Over the next few months you will see large chunks of finished and polished HEX fall into place, and for months and years after that you will continue to see the game grow. As I have said, it’s never going to be “finished.” It’s always going to be growing.

So let’s generate a list of questions here, and I will post them to the blog I am starting this week. The first post is Wednesday (tomorrow!!!) and will make these answers next Wednesday’s post.

Also, before I get the comments about not living up to our Kickstarter promise about dates— yes we are late, and I want you to know how very sorry I am for that. I truly am sorry. All of our focus is on this game all day every day and we cannot wait for you to be playing it, to be loving it as much as we do. It’s simply more difficult than I imagined and as we get closer to the finish line, we uncover more work. We are getting close as you can see in the alpha, and we should have some great progress over the next month. Additionally, we continue to hire and have an incredibly talented team in place, so please stick with me, because the destination is going to be amazing.

BUT, if you have lost faith, I understand and as disappointed as I am in that reality (and again very sorry), I am willing to refund your Kickstarter donation.

The last thing I want to do is betray the trust placed in me, and if refunding your money is the way I can get a bit of your trust back I am more than willing to do it.

-cory

Refugee
02-04-2014, 12:27 PM
Thanks for validating my faith in you Cory. I'm not terribly in the habit of wasting my time posting things to hear myself speak so I assure you I wouldn't have bothered with this if I didn't think you or a representative wouldn't have responded to my concerns. Still it's always nice to see the people you put your faith in deliver.

So alright, here are some questions from me.

As I mentioned previously you guys have a lot of game making experience but not a great deal of digital experience as far as I know. I'm sure that you actively hired to compensate for that lack of experience but as a company there still was probably a lot to learn. Would you say that you're still in that difficult learning phase or do you think as a company you've got a good handle on where you're going now in terms of actual platform implementation?

What features to you are included in a beta ready client? (I actually know more or less the answers to this but I think it's good to include in your updates often.) What possibly expected features probably won't make it? (Champion gear, auction house, pve, trading etc.)

What feature has presented the largest problem for you thus far?

It had been mentioned previously that the current server is running on a rather low power system I believe. At what point, if ever do you plan to make a move to a more powerful infrastructure and do you expect that will alleviate any of the current problems in the alpha?

Is there an auction house team, tournaments team, UI team, etc etc. who are all developing features in parallel (which would mean perhaps many of these features get launched around the same time) or is it more of a "we'll work on tournaments until they work, then move on to the auction house, then polish the UI etc" situation (meaning the features will be widely spaced from each other)?

What do you think your largest roadblock going forward is likely to be? Or perhaps what moment in the future of Hex is scariest to you? For example, are you afraid the login server is going to explode when you open up beta? Or maybe that some database problem with the auction house will cause an economic catastrophe?

Thanks again for taking the time to be accessible Cory. I know it often isn't easy and seems more trouble than it's worth. But knowing that your passion is there pushing the game along means a lot to the people watching from the outside.

Vorpal
02-04-2014, 12:27 PM
I think the nature of software development precludes most questions involving the word 'when' from getting meaningful answers. That's just the way it is.

So rather than asking 'When will beta start' I think instead I will ask 'What major components of the game do you wish to have functional and in place before beta starts?' In other words: what does your 'things that must be done before beta' checklist currently look like?

I would think once the sealed bugs are worked out, draft and the auction house are the two biggies left.

Is it fair to say that synchronous communication on the level required to support tons and tons of users has been the biggest hurdle so far? The kickstarter, after all, included basically a fully functional game. But it seems that attempting to deploy the game on a platform able to support thousands of concurrent users revealed underlying problems that didn't manifest themselves on such a small scale(this is hardly surprising or unusual) which have been a bit tricky to fix.

On that note, I was not surprised to see sealed implemented before draft. There's a lot more communicating that has to happen between players in a draft than players in sealed.

Shaqattaq
02-04-2014, 12:47 PM
So here's my request princess. Do an AMA, or a comprehensive update, do an interview on good morning America, something to let us know how things are going. Not "Our engineers continue to squash tournament bugs while the developers tune the first PvE dungeon". I'm looking for something in depth. Give me, "The engineers identified a bug which caused users to hang while loading the tournament page. We think we've got that one fixed for the next patch deploy. As discussed in the previous update there was a bug related to decks not being saved during sealed deck construction. Fixing that bug has proved to be more difficult than anticipated. We're still working on it but we can't promise it'll be fixed in the next patch. Behind the scenes we've made some significant progress in speeding up response time so gameplay should feel snappier. Meanwhile the team in charge of the draft client is just about ready for deployment and we've begun to move resources into polishing our rough internal version of the auction house. Meanwhile sourcing the art for set two is nearly complete and we've revamped the deck building screen for increases usability etc etc etc."


I agree that our bug communication hasn't been ideal, which is why we launched the bug report form and spreadsheet (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32226) last Friday. We'll be looking to develop that over the next few weeks to make sure it's easy for players to use, QA is getting the information it needs, and players can see the progress on bugs.

As for more information, some of the information you're looking for is found in the weekly Patch Notes. As for speaking about features that have yet to be deployed, in ways that feels like cheating as we're touting features that players have yet to touch, so there's a disconnect there and if it's a particularity long process, players may feel as if development is dragging while it's actually on-time. There are also situations where some features get moved around on the schedule, so players who feel strongly about some features may be disappointed in the future when another feature is pushed forward.

bojanglesz
02-04-2014, 12:51 PM
I would love to do a Q&A. I have tried to be super accessible, and I love talking about the game.

The one thing to keep in mind is that I am serving the larger vision of what this game can be. Even from day one of most people learning about HEX via the Kickstarter, it was about this crazy idea. It was a game no one was making but a passionate group of us REALLY wanted. That game isn’t simple to make, hell maybe there was a reason no one was making it… because it soooo hard. I have mentioned it a few times now— we are not in a race. I don’t care what other games are doing, those games are NOT our competitors, we have an entirely different destination mapped out, and NO ONE is going to the place we are heading. It’s totally uncharted waters. Over the next few months you will see large chunks of finished and polished HEX fall into place, and for months and years after that you will continue to see the game grow. As I have said, it’s never going to be “finished.” It’s always going to be growing.

So let’s generate a list of questions here, and I will post them to the blog I am starting this week. The first post is Wednesday (tomorrow!!!) and will make these answers next Wednesday’s post.

Also, before I get the comments about not living up to our Kickstarter promise about dates— yes we are late, and I want you to know how very sorry I am for that. I truly am sorry. All of our focus is on this game all day every day and we cannot wait for you to be playing it, to be loving it as much as we do. It’s simply more difficult than I imagined and as we get closer to the finish line, we uncover more work. We are getting close as you can see in the alpha, and we should have some great progress over the next month. Additionally, we continue to hire and have an incredibly talented team in place, so please stick with me, because the destination is going to be amazing.

BUT, if you have lost faith, I understand and as disappointed as I am in that reality (and again very sorry), I am willing to refund your Kickstarter donation.

The last thing I want to do is betray the trust placed in me, and if refunding your money is the way I can get a bit of your trust back I am more than willing to do it.

-cory

This post single-handedly validated why I contributed over 100$ to the Kickstarter. Thanks for jumping in and sharing, and I can't wait to read the blog.

Yoss
02-04-2014, 01:05 PM
What features to you are included in a beta ready client? (I actually know more or less the answers to this but I think it's good to include in your updates often.) What possibly expected features probably won't make it? (Champion gear, auction house, pve, trading etc.)

Along these lines, I'd love to have an official take on the Unofficial Features & Milestones List:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32188

Response in the blog (or whatever) is fine; we as a community can move the data in to the thread.

As Vorpal said, I wouldn't ask for dates, just milestones and an ordering thereof. Also, I am quite willing to accept updates to the milestone list and ordering as you move along. Project management works that way. You lay out a plan that gets you where you need to go, and then adjust it as you run into the inevitable roadblocks and detours..

Gwaer
02-04-2014, 01:24 PM
Unfortunately there will be an uprising and abounding conspiracy theories every time a feature is reorganized. It's just unwise for them to give us any sort of roadmap.

saffamike
02-04-2014, 01:35 PM
Unfortunately there will be an uprising and abounding conspiracy theories every time a feature is reorganized. It's just unwise for them to give us any sort of roadmap.

There are more than enough conspiracy theories at the moment! I'd prefer some kind of roadmap with a big caveat that plans may change as they move through the process.

I think a blog is a great idea. I'd love to get more regular updates regarding the development process including the challenges, mistakes and successes. That's part of the whole kickstarter experience.

mudkip
02-04-2014, 01:42 PM
I agree that our bug communication hasn't been ideal, which is why we launched the bug report form and spreadsheet (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32226) last Friday. We'll be looking to develop that over the next few weeks to make sure it's easy for players to use, QA is getting the information it needs, and players can see the progress on bugs.
Question about that, why don't you guy just set up a Mantis tracker? (http://www.mantisbt.org/) I've used a Mantis tracker at work (as a user) and thought it was great. It would probably be a much smoother and more automated process than forms and spreadsheets.

Here's an example: http://www.mantisbt.org/bugs/view_all_bug_page.php



As for more information, some of the information you're looking for is found in the weekly Patch Notes. As for speaking about features that have yet to be deployed, in ways that feels like cheating as we're touting features that players have yet to touch, so there's a disconnect there and if it's a particularity long process, players may feel as if development is dragging while it's actually on-time. There are also situations where some features get moved around on the schedule, so players who feel strongly about some features may be disappointed in the future when another feature is pushed forward.
This and what Vorpal wrote are both really well put.

mach
02-04-2014, 01:42 PM
I have mentioned it a few times now— we are not in a race. I don’t care what other games are doing, those games are NOT our competitors, we have an entirely different destination mapped out, and NO ONE is going to the place we are heading. It’s totally uncharted waters.

This statement is very, very worrisome.

Like it or not, other games are your competition. Your potential customers will be looking at what you offer and what they offer and deciding whether to play one, the other, both, or neither.

No matter how great your game is, no matter how different you think your destination is, the rules of business and economics still apply. Not caring about your competition is a serious and possibly fatal mistake. You should be looking at other similar games, see what they are doing right, and considering whether you should be doing that too. You should also be looking at what they are doing wrong, and making sure you are not making the same mistakes.

We'd all hate to see a great game fail because you chose to ignore reality on the business side of things.

Refugee
02-04-2014, 01:48 PM
As players we're focused on the systems and features we use to play. But there's a lot of adjacent systems that are requirements for a long lived game. Has development started for things like an in game store, improved website etc?

RobHaven
02-04-2014, 01:54 PM
When will a rough copy of the rules be made available? We've already been told that there isn't enough time to make a comprehensive document - and I'm 100% fine with that - but it stands to reason that there would be an internal document of some kind that you all currently use? It doesn't have to be something you're forever bound to, but a rough doc giving us a decent idea of how you currently expect/want the game to behave.
I know you guys can't give us everything, but we currently have nothing; can we find a middle-ground?

Scammanator
02-04-2014, 02:05 PM
Question for Cory: What single feature currently in development would you be most excited to show off if you could? Be as vague or as specific as you like

Kroan
02-04-2014, 02:19 PM
Just an idea, but something another Kickstarter does which i'm totally in love with is this:
http://stonehearth.net/roadmap/

It's basically just a map with what the feature's are that are planned to be developed, the one currently being worked on and the feature's that are done. (Game just became alpha, so it's not all that exciting).

It doesn't say all that much, but I still like it to see where we are, where we came from and where we are going to.

MoikPEI
02-04-2014, 02:25 PM
I have a set of question which can all be boiled down to "Do you envision Hex will be really popular a few years out?", but in specific are:
1) How well do retention rates and user activity levels in the Alpha match what CZE may have been expecting by the end of the Kickstarter?
2) How large a community does CZE expect* Hex to have once its stable and content complete (around start of the second block for example, maybe a year out)? > 30k Concurrent? 10-20k? < 5k?
3) What are the biggest non-engineering hurdles CZE is anticipating in achieving or exceeding a community of that size?
4) What does CZE expect it will do to mitigate those obstacles?
5) How many Refunds have been processed?

* I don't mean how big do you want, I mean what is a realistic assessment from the developer's point of view.

DanTheMeek
02-04-2014, 02:57 PM
This statement is very, very worrisome.

Like it or not, other games are your competition. Your potential customers will be looking at what you offer and what they offer and deciding whether to play one, the other, both, or neither.

No matter how great your game is, no matter how different you think your destination is, the rules of business and economics still apply. Not caring about your competition is a serious and possibly fatal mistake. You should be looking at other similar games, see what they are doing right, and considering whether you should be doing that too. You should also be looking at what they are doing wrong, and making sure you are not making the same mistakes.

We'd all hate to see a great game fail because you chose to ignore reality on the business side of things.

I've got to ditto this sentiment. I understand that its important to you don't get so caught up in what everyone else is doing that you allow it to hinder you're ability to produce you're own vision, but the incumbent does have an advantage to anyone who comes in after. We see it all the time in fighting games, a great new fighting game comes out with a deeper system, great graphics, and original ideas... and it has a miniscule play base on life support cause everyone quickly gravitates back to Street Fighter cause its what came out first, and its what they already know and invested time into. Heck, while we still haven't seen what the single player of Hex is going to be like, the PvP does not even put itself apart from whats already out there. Quite the opposite, the similarities to MTGO make the game an incredibly hard sell for me when trying to convince friends to slacker back. For some they're not fans of MTG and don't see how this will be any different, for others, quite the opposite, they do love MTG, but they've already invested in it quite heavily, and thus don't see why they should start from scratch instead of just sticking with MTG itself.

As for the single player, well there are card games out there with extensive single player campaigns and rpg elements, The Lost Kingdoms games, Rise of Mythos, heck even Duels of the Planeswalkers and most IPhone OCGs have campaign modes to explore with fights with unique restrictions and new stuff to unlock, what makes this one the be all end all? In fact, other then some nicer UIs, why should they play this over the fan updates of Shandalar?

I'm not saying you're single player content won't be amazing, I backed for as much as I did cause you convinced me it would be, but what I'm saying is that I want to know WHY you believe its so different and so superior to whats already out there so I can use that as ammo against friends on the fence about the game.

So again, PvP feels like I've been there, done that, not bad but not different then whats already out there, and initial pricing info revealed in the past week suggests that do to the rarity distributions of packs this game is going to be pretty expensive on the pvp side of things so pricing really isn't something I can build a case around as I'd once hoped (with out looking up the thread my calculations as I recall came to some where over 2,000.00 USD for a full set of set 1 at 2 dollars per pack and around estimated 200-400 dollars to build top tier decks off buying singles from the AH), so I'm just trying to grapple for what it is I can tell friends makes this game stand apart and convince them they should try to fit playing it into their already jam packed MMORPG, MOBA, and OCG play lists.

Cause I hear the game is going to be great and like nothing else on the market, but I don't hear WHY its so great or HOW its so different, beyond cards having gems and related equipment.

Oh and for a more direct question for the blog, did you read the post calculations, did you feel the estimates were fair and the calculations relatively valid, and if not, what is the price point you're anticipating? I know you don't want to commit to anything too soon, and I understand why, but I don't want to be spreading unflattering rumors about your pricing if there's, say, some key element I'm missing that will drop those numbers by more then half (crafting perhaps?).

Refugee
02-04-2014, 03:13 PM
One of the things that became apparent to me playing Solforge is that at times I want to play to develop my collection and at times I simply want to play for some casual fun. With that in mind are there plans for cheaper "phantom" drafts or sealed (where you still play for prizes but don't keep the cards you draft much like hearthstone arena) for the player who just wants to kill a little time at a low cost while still playing some pvp?

hammer
02-04-2014, 03:23 PM
Appreciate the quick response from Cory.

To the hard-working folk at CZE I say, take your time, I believe, HEX will be the best dTCG on the market, I am happy to wait, and I am already getting fantastic entertainment / value from participating in the alpha.

I have only one hex regret in that I should have tried to snipe the Grand King rather than buying Collector and Dungeon Crawler because now I can never be a Raid Leader but otherwise I am super pumped for the kickstarter rewards, the future of hex, Hexcon (which as a father of three young kids and living in the UK I will arm-chair spectate sadly), oh and the novel ! which reminds me....

I would like an update on the novel and timeline for it being published as the lore of Hex has me so interested.

ossuary
02-04-2014, 04:09 PM
I'm also interested in having an update on when the website overhaul will be started and what features we can expect to see in that, as well as some in-depth details on the PVE side of things, which Shaq promised us back before Christmas.

Actually, along the same lines, I'd also like an update on the "whitehat" sessions Shaq mentioned in October or November that never came together. I know it's not a huge priority, but there are things we can do to help you guys with client and server stability that you may not be able to uncover yourselves internally.

Loregoyle
02-04-2014, 05:53 PM
I would like an update on the novel and timeline for it being published as the lore of Hex has me so interested.

Christie Golden is deep into writing the novel as we speak. I have been in constant communication with her, answering her questions about Entrath lore and bouncing character ideas off each other.

jimmywolf
02-04-2014, 06:57 PM
Christie Golden is deep into writing the novel as we speak. I have been in constant communication with her, answering her questions about Entrath lore and bouncing character ideas off each other.


thanks for update as am looking forward to the novel! also thank you too everyone in the HEX team for keep pushing this game forward an sharing information.

i would love for thing too progress much faster an i understand their only so much you can get done in a day, it just feel like at the current rate progress, things are going much slower then one would believe as a normal rate.

maybe after the ground work done thing will progress much faster. just wondering is their a ETA on planed launch of HEX? i know no date could be a right date, just wondering were around you guys are trying project a timetable for release that your trying to meet as a goal.

Showsni
02-04-2014, 08:32 PM
My question is looking pretty far into the future, so any answer might well be pure speculation, but...

Once Hex actually goes live, what kind of marketing is it going to get? TV ads? Radio? Magazines? We've obviously got the tie in novel; will there be other similar product that can advertise Hex? I'm sure streaming is going to be very important; will you be sponsoring well known twitch/youtube/internet personalities to try out the game? How is the game going to be introduced to as many customers as possible?

Aksell
02-05-2014, 01:24 AM
Dear CZE,

I'm bummed that Refugee is on a downer. I'm bummed that mach and Dan theMeek want you to focus on the "business" and not the "fun" or the "fans". I'm bummed that the game isn't in full release so that it available to all.

I'm passionate about this game. Very passionate. I'm just not someone who wants to yammer on about it too much. Please, please, please keep the original vision intact even if it means my wife and I have to wait a year before the final release. The original vision is what drew us in and seduced our commitment. It may not be as much as others, and it's definitely more than a few, but that shouldn't matter. Quality content that focuses on fun and fans will generate the business. WoW eventually crushed the leading MMO of the time and Vanguard never delivered on the quality and thus it's about to be shuttered.

I haven't agreed with every step that you guys have made. I've even been vocal about it from time to time. If you keep that original dream alive and deliver it with finesse then you will never lose me. Because when I found the kickstarter I knew that if those ideas became a reality I would be home.

Good homes take a while to build and they use good quality (cost effective perhaps) materials. Don't get me wrong I want the effin' game right now! Dang Nabbit! But I will wait if it means that you will deliver my home, eventually.

Oh, and can you please add more customisation options? We like that. :p

Kingrags
02-05-2014, 03:24 AM
I know this is very secret and you don't want to talk about it just yet... but... PvE? I'd love some info about some hero/abilities/levels/classes/races/etc. Any chance you could share some new info?

Best regards
Fredrik

primer
02-05-2014, 03:37 AM
My question is about the tournament servers. I remember a while ago one of the guys saying they will monitor the tournaments and prizes will be given at launch for winners of these alpha tourneys. I however have never once got past the first round of a tourney, and not just because I lose :p, due mainly to winning one match and some of the other matches not playing. More recently I've been experiencing the 'game could not start' pop up at the beginning of my first game and suspect I'm now one of those other games that are 0-0 for people.

So in what kind of time frame can we expect stable tournaments? I've played some pretty basic and mostly free online games and one thing I've rarely come across are problems like I have with hex at the moment.

Now I 100% agree with everyone who's going to tell me alpha is alpha etc. but I'd much rather of waited a month or more for working tournament lobbies than what we have right now. Has anyone actually finished a tournament yet? I'm guessing very few because as each day goes by the time it takes to get 8 people together seems to be longer and longer.

I just hope people don't get too disheartened but I find myself struggling now to find the enthusiasm to sit for 20 mins to get 8 people, then 20 mins to build a deck and finally 10 mins waiting while the game does not start. Sometimes ill get the first match if I'm lucky but never anything after that.

Frank1397
02-05-2014, 03:53 AM
I also would love PVE information.

Why dont you use a open public roadmap. Use the weekly update to give information on the road map and other information. We get a weekly view how the game is doing and we can talk about it in a normal tone i hope.

A other suggestion give us info about PVE can be story's or other things. You should by now know something about this world. In a normal MMO you would know something about the world..
You could give world information like starting zone information, Bad and good guys, A story about the Races, ...... and more more.
It also gives you options for a second novel.

Best Regards,

Frank

FlyingMeatchip
02-05-2014, 07:12 AM
Appreciate the quick response from Cory.

To the hard-working folk at CZE I say, take your time, I believe, HEX will be the best dTCG on the market, I am happy to wait, and I am already getting fantastic entertainment / value from participating in the alpha.

I have only one hex regret in that I should have tried to snipe the Grand King rather than buying Collector and Dungeon Crawler because now I can never be a Raid Leader but otherwise I am super pumped for the kickstarter rewards, the future of hex, Hexcon (which as a father of three young kids and living in the UK I will arm-chair spectate sadly), oh and the novel ! which reminds me....

I would like an update on the novel and timeline for it being published as the lore of Hex has me so interested.

+1, I'm one that does realize once alpha is over it is over for good and then we're all buying packs, trading, and using the Auction House. Having only spent on a Captain tier, I am relishing the opportunity to playtest all the cards for as long as possible...Thank You.

Cory- Some really big Community events are taking place, and I was wondering if CZE is going to implement some type of in-house tournament bracket system? If so, would it utilize tournament software like Mantis for tiebreakers?

Thanks Cory

RobHaven
02-05-2014, 07:50 AM
I'm passionate about this game. Very passionate. I'm just not someone who wants to yammer on about it too much. Please, please, please keep the original vision intact even if it means my wife and I have to wait a year before the final release. The original vision is what drew us in and seduced our commitment. It may not be as much as others, and it's definitely more than a few, but that shouldn't matter. Quality content that focuses on fun and fans will generate the business.
...
I haven't agreed with every step that you guys have made. I've even been vocal about it from time to time. If you keep that original dream alive and deliver it with finesse then you will never lose me. Because when I found the kickstarter I knew that if those ideas became a reality I would be home.
Wow... I love this. I wish I could express my hopes and commitment to the game as well as this guy did.


I know this is very secret and you don't want to talk about it just yet... but... PvE? I'd love some info about some hero/abilities/levels/classes/races/etc. Any chance you could share some new info?
The only "tree" we've seen was for the Warrior, and it was way-back-when. I'd love to see a second (and third?!) tree, and maybe an update to the first? Something - anything! - to hold us over...


My question is about the tournament servers. I remember a while ago one of the guys saying they will monitor the tournaments and prizes will be given at launch for winners of these alpha tourneys. I however have never once got past the first round of a tourney, and not just because I lose :p, due mainly to winning one match and some of the other matches not playing. More recently I've been experiencing the 'game could not start' pop up at the beginning of my first game and suspect I'm now one of those other games that are 0-0 for people.
...
Now I 100% agree with everyone who's going to tell me alpha is alpha etc. but I'd much rather of waited a month or more for working tournament lobbies than what we have right now. Has anyone actually finished a tournament yet? I'm guessing very few because as each day goes by the time it takes to get 8 people together seems to be longer and longer.

I just hope people don't get too disheartened but I find myself struggling now to find the enthusiasm to sit for 20 mins to get 8 people, then 20 mins to build a deck and finally 10 mins waiting while the game does not start. Sometimes ill get the first match if I'm lucky but never anything after that.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat. It actually just happened last night and it was enough to make me call it quits for the night. It's so frustrating to have the tournaments error out after all that time you waited (time that could have been better spent elsewhere). Like you, I have never once finished a tournament. The closest I got was a tournament where I completed (and won) the first two games; my excitement to move on to round two was crushed when the tournament crashed.
On a related note, if anyone wants a "I survived a Hex tournament crash after waiting an hour to not play a single match...and all I got was this lousy t-shirt." shirt, I will be printing them this weekend.

ossuary
02-05-2014, 11:38 AM
hahah... I think I need one of those shirts. :p

I've never been able to finish a tournament either. Most of them I don't even get to start the first match. I stopped trying, for now. :)

bojanglesz
02-05-2014, 11:41 AM
Oh another question. I remember Cory saying they were going to shut down slacker backer soon from the Gamespot stream. Is that still the plan? "Soon" is relative, I know, but that was like a month ago.

Gridian
02-06-2014, 04:13 AM
As I am a PvE guy I'd love for you to tell us (me), how far the Dungeons have been built and if there is any chance of the first of them to make it into the beta build? (or even late alpha... *dreaming*)

Yours,

Gridian

mysnismatt
02-06-2014, 06:39 AM
So let’s generate a list of questions here, and I will post them to the blog I am starting this week. The first post is Wednesday (tomorrow!!!) and will make these answers next Wednesday’s post.

Does anyone know where this is?

RobHaven
02-06-2014, 06:59 AM
http://coryhudsonjones.tumblr.com/post/75708632816/so-a-blog-yes-i-am-going-to-do-a-weekly-blog-i

MoikPEI
02-06-2014, 08:14 AM
>Mercenaries will be tradeable
I jolted enough to shake my chair. Does that count as being bowled over?

>This is because of internal testing/trying to make it work before people complain, and requires admitting an inaccurate decision/not rationalizing it
You would be surprised how much confidence that blog post regenerated in me. I'm back on the Optimism side of the spectrum.

Mahes
02-06-2014, 08:25 AM
I have an honest question.

This is a quote from the Kickstarter;

"We have been in development for almost two years and have accomplished a lot. As you can see from our videos and screenshots, the game is looking incredible. But we need your help to finish. With this last push we can fund HEX’s remaining development and give this game the launch it deserves."

Given the Kickstarter's time table and the amount of money raised, do you guys foresee any problems continuing to be able to fund the progress?

The extra money beyond the 300k you claimed was needed to finish the product was to be used for extra programming and such, though I imagine some of that could be redirected. I ask the question because it is obvious that the time table is going to go well beyond initial projections. One month or 2 is fine, but this looks to be going at least 1 year beyond. You used the kickstarter as a way to push the funding enough to finish the project but now it appears as though the project still had a long way to go. I have noticed that other Kickstarters will break down financing for the people who pledged as a way of gauging progress. Any chance at this stage that perhaps you guys could do that for us?

Thank you for any response.

jimmywolf
02-06-2014, 03:45 PM
http://coryhudsonjones.tumblr.com/post/75708632816/so-a-blog-yes-i-am-going-to-do-a-weekly-blog-i


thanks for sharing an good read. the part i enjoy most was

So there it is, I was wrong, and we WILL make mercenaries tradable. And really, in terms of storytelling, doesn’t that make sense? They ARE mercenaries.


very nice change an it nice too know their talking behind the scene an agreeing, disagreeing about issues an concerns. make me feel more proud about the game knowing their passionate, about their work an trying make it the best.

Xenavire
02-06-2014, 03:57 PM
Dear Santa Cory,

Thank you very much for today's patch. I always enjoy new toys to play with and you and your helper elves have not disappointed. The changes to Mercenaries is also very exciting, and you have excited all the little boys and girls.

My Christmas wish is to be a part of an amazing seasonal Tournament for fun prizes, with lot's of fun players and spot prizes.

Regards,
A good little boy.

P.S, can you tell the Easter Bunny that I am very excited for Beta?

Mahes
02-08-2014, 08:32 AM
OK, this is getting kind of old.

Every online game that uses mass players even in alpha/beta stages has a communication window if there are people testing/playing the game. A communication window is a window that is incorporated either in the first start up screen or the 2nd, that allows developers/engineers to notify testers to the state of the servers on any portion of the game. An example of a message would be;

" The tournament portion of the game is currently down at the moment. We are aware that players are unable to enter the lobby and are working towards rectifying the situation."

It does not need to have an ETA, but that is nice so that the players have an estimate as when to try and reenter the lobby. It would take a developer/engineer 1 whole minute to type this so that players can then go about their daily business instead of wondering if they need to repair/relaunch/retry the game. It cannot be all that difficult to implement this system and yet it apparently is. It is kind of a bummer to read in the latest weekly update about how they patched the client side and expect that now the tournaments should be working better only to find out that indeed they are not.

Oh and by the way, the client side patch is an example of another piece of information that could be placed in that box.

I know it is alpha. I have Alpha tested other online games. The developers of those games usually communicated server status with their testers, which is why I am puzzled as to why it appears to be so difficult for this game to.

Oh and the timeframe that sparked this message was Saturday morning at 9:30 AM EST. As of 10:36 AM EST I still could not enter the tournament lobby.

Kilo24
02-08-2014, 09:35 AM
I second the requests for more specifics on PvE, like class abilities and dungeons. We've had a good amount of general information on dungeons and PvE mechanics, but having, say, a complete description of the first three encounters of an early dungeon along with long-term impacts from those encounters would be excellent. Even if they change with further development (as I'm sure they will) it's quite valuable to have tangible rules to mull over.

Also, how do you intend to treat the exclusive Kickstarter rewards if they prove to be unbalanced in one way or another before they're granted to the players? Are you considering them in the same light as the cards in alpha (i.e. fully willing to buff/nerf them as necessary or change them if implementation is an issue) or does them being Kickstarter rewards mean that they will never be changed? Or is it something like you're willing to buff them if they're terrible but not nerf them? You've said before that you don't want to change cards once people own them, but we don't have them yet.

Arivald
02-10-2014, 01:42 PM
So let’s generate a list of questions here, and I will post them to the blog I am starting this week. The first post is Wednesday (tomorrow!!!) and will make these answers next Wednesday’s post.
If you are still collect questions - two more:
- AH in most MMOs have tendency to devaluate items prices very fast due to heavy and often undercutting. Its especially problematic with items that are exactly the same. Since all copies of single card are (for gameplay purpose - double back will appeal only to the part of community - collectors) the same, do you plan any AH mechanic that will help with undercutting (ie not returnable listing fee, no ability to cancel listing before its timer runs out, etc)?
- We have Ben's articles but apart from that there was very little communication about card abilities changes. Can you share your POV on those changes and can we expect any modifications to them in future.

funktion
02-10-2014, 11:13 PM
Why is undercutting a bad thing?

Xenavire
02-11-2014, 12:06 AM
Why is undercutting a bad thing?

Undercutting without clear reason devalues everything to insane levels (sometimes unintentionally, just due to a few people deciding that they MUST sell their stuff first). This leads to newer people coming in and think those prices are standard, and the price kinda sticks.

Not such a big deal in a TCG (especially the PvP side). The PvE side might get flooded with duplicate items that become severely devalued, and if that is avoidable, it would be interesting to hear about the plan in place.

Undercutting does have positives, so it shouldn't be an automatic stop, but constant undercutting is fairly horrible to deal with. It's like a reverse bidding war, except everyone ultimately loses except the buyer.

Patrigan
02-11-2014, 01:05 AM
Undercutting without clear reason devalues everything to insane levels (sometimes unintentionally, just due to a few people deciding that they MUST sell their stuff first). This leads to newer people coming in and think those prices are standard, and the price kinda sticks.

Not such a big deal in a TCG (especially the PvP side). The PvE side might get flooded with duplicate items that become severely devalued, and if that is avoidable, it would be interesting to hear about the plan in place.

Undercutting does have positives, so it shouldn't be an automatic stop, but constant undercutting is fairly horrible to deal with. It's like a reverse bidding war, except everyone ultimately loses except the buyer.

Why not just buy the undercut items and resell them for much more? If they're wanted, you'll sell them. If they're not, then the undercutting was rightful (basic question and demand). There are enough market mechanics that prevent undercutting. There is honestly no need for additional prevention.

It only takes one sly salesmen who focuses on a couple of cards with high demand. He'll buy all the cheap versions and resells them at a (often much) higher price. Sometimes even double or triple the original price. With high enough demand, the cards will go. That one guy will make shitloads.

I'm talking with experience, because that's how I kept myself rich in WoW. Now it'll be interesting in Hex, because CZE already confirmed they will have a sales cut and listing fee. So I expect this to actually raise prices even more.

RobHaven
02-11-2014, 06:18 AM
Supply and demand fixes all outliers.

Maphalux
02-11-2014, 07:18 AM
I believe the option to sell for less than your competitors is a vital part of a healthy economy. It is good for consumers.

wutae
02-11-2014, 07:50 AM
As much as i would like to have faith in the game, no matter what the excuse is, i have seen some very basic newb mistakes happening, which haven't happened even on internal testing of indy game developers.

The lack of experience on digital game development is obvious, and no i am not saying all this just to be rude, nor i want a refund.
But sometimes parents have to show the harsh truth to their children so they can help them understand. I am obviously not a parent of CZE, but it's a metaphor that if we do not help CZE understand that they rely way too much to our good faith, then who will? I am not in a hurry, for the game to go out, but for way too many weeks, we have seen nothing but minor tweeks, card introductions and things that their development shouldnt take that long.

The communication with the testers is at the bare minimum, people dont know what is happening. And most of the time even in your in game chat, people are asking if something is still working/broken or generally try to trade information with each other.

A "news" section implemented on your game login client, which people can read any announcements made by the game developers is something that all gaming companies do, and most of the time they prefer to have it as one of the first things to implement for better communication with their testers. The fact that you force us to check forums on daily basis, which is not related to the game client directly, and the fact that on alpha section we have some times even multiple days with no word, shows your lack of experience.

now having said all that, and knowing that people will hate me, i believe that if i am not straight forward, and if i dont give my opinion on this matter, things will not improve. I hope for the best of your game, as it's a dream come true for myself. And i hope that especially the communication with the testers will get improved.

If i had to rate you for your level of communication i would say you get 2 out of 10, and no i dont care even if Cory himself will reply to me, what i am asking is that the community managers should do their jobs better. And the client itself should have the very basics of the basics as it should initially have.

Xenavire
02-11-2014, 08:21 AM
Why not just buy the undercut items and resell them for much more? If they're wanted, you'll sell them. If they're not, then the undercutting was rightful (basic question and demand). There are enough market mechanics that prevent undercutting. There is honestly no need for additional prevention.

It only takes one sly salesmen who focuses on a couple of cards with high demand. He'll buy all the cheap versions and resells them at a (often much) higher price. Sometimes even double or triple the original price. With high enough demand, the cards will go. That one guy will make shitloads.

I'm talking with experience, because that's how I kept myself rich in WoW. Now it'll be interesting in Hex, because CZE already confirmed they will have a sales cut and listing fee. So I expect this to actually raise prices even more.

I have been in that position, and have bought out large chunks of dirt cheap items and relisted them at my fair price, only to be undercut moments later. Realistically, you cannot possibly buy up the entire supply, so you either lost money and have useless stock, or you relist them cheaper, and lose money that way.

Sometimes you can play the AH like a pro and still get shafted. So maybe they should have a relisting cooldown (say 30 minutes) so we at least avoid the undercutting wars. Prices will go down more naturally, not because some spiteful person decided to list their product at a single gold/plat (the smallest unit of each) just to get their stuff sold first.

And again, I doubt PvP cards will have this problem much (maybe in extreme cases with worthless rares or uncommons) but PvE will most definitely have this problem - because supply is 'free' and infinite, someone will always have a few copies of something that they want to unload. I mean it can get bad on some WoW servers, with supply of certain items being very limited, and the demand being moderate to high, those certain items were relisted multiple times an hour for lower and lower prices for no reason - people were happily buying them more exspensive at first, then these few cheap items (due to an undercutting war) were bought up, and the original price was accepted as being far too expensive - and the supply took months to increase, and the demand never really went away.

Sometimes the effects can be purely negative, but sometimes it can be very positive - like removing someones monopoly on a certain item, and making prices fair.

Rendakor
02-11-2014, 08:40 AM
All PVE items are going to be undercut to near-worthless levels (at least in terms of Gold:Plat), simply because they are free and infinite. There will be bots and farmers, and anything that isn't incredibly rare is just not going to be worth anything. No amount of AH rules (relisting times, fees, etc.) will prevent this.

The crafting system might mitigate this, by removing large quantities of cheap cards from the market, but I wouldn't count on it.

Yoss
02-11-2014, 08:59 AM
Regarding the AH question, maybe the AH thread would be a better place. I cross-posted his quote there yesterday:

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32198&page=34&p=337960&viewfull=1#post337960

RobHaven
02-11-2014, 09:00 AM
The crafting system might mitigate this, by removing large quantities of cheap cards from the market, but I wouldn't count on it.
I would. If I see 10-for-1g! sales on the AH, I'm buying that bundle all day so I can grind them into paste. I loooooove me some crafting...even when I don't know what the hell I'm crafting!!

I'm sure we'll eventually see PvE commons for next to nothing, but I don't think it will be for some time. And if they rotate the dungeons [as it's been suggested they would], that could also help the supply/demand significantly.

BlackRoger
02-11-2014, 09:54 AM
Hey Cory, a few questions here:

About the Novel, I wanted to know if you are planning to charge for it.
Since in theory it was payed for by the KS I initially expected it to be free (at least for backers).
But then again I don't really know how much of the cost was actually covered by the stretch goal, and can't remmember ever seeing any official word on that.

Also, about HexCon.
Now, I don't live in the US, so I never see all these different Conventions you guys have there.
So, I wanted to ask you to have more of the convention on video so we can also see what cool stuff you planned.

Lastly, I was wondering about the effectiveness of our feedback about balance issues for you guys.
Throughout the alpha there have been many threads about card/shard balancing, usually with alot of mixed opinions.
I wanted to know if you find these type of threads usefull? Have there been cards which have been changed purely on community feedback? or are the changes mostly from in-house development?
As far as I know, the only card you confirmed was changed based on community feedback is omen of oblivion.

Refugee
02-11-2014, 02:48 PM
There have been a lot of threads throughout alpha about how some people are unhappy with randomization. Generally they amount to, "in the real world decks are shuffled in a way that isn't truly random and truly random shuffling feels bad." Is this even an issue you are considering looking into? Personally I don't care much either way but I see it come up enough that I think a lot of people would like to hear something official.

Yoss
02-11-2014, 02:57 PM
There have been a lot of threads throughout alpha about how some people are unhappy with randomization. Generally they amount to, "in the real world decks are shuffled in a way that isn't truly random and truly random shuffling feels bad." Is this even an issue you are considering looking into? Personally I don't care much either way but I see it come up enough that I think a lot of people would like to hear something official.

They've already made official posts about it. (There's no problem.) And I think one of their updates is going to have a detailed discussion of the issue.

Rendakor
02-11-2014, 02:59 PM
RNG has been addressed over in the Alpha forums (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32258&page=6&p=338029#post338029):

We don't want anybody to feel as if they're being silenced on these forums on cases where players are discussing things like RNG, as we want to promote open discussion of HEX. Plus, sometimes heavy moderation of these issues in any open forum for any company can be mistakenly seen as an attempt to "cover up" a problem.

It is, however, important that players understand that we've addressed this issue multiple times and as we've stated before, our engineers have thoroughly tested the shuffling mechanic in this game. It is working properly. It works in a way that is random and properly mimics honest shuffling in the real world. Our engineers have tested millions of hands through sound testing procedures. Additionally, from what I've seen in community efforts to collect data and analyze it, their findings agree that the shuffling is random as well.

Our senior engineers have decades of experience working on digital trading card games and are well versed in randomization. They have testing procedures that can detect problems in our randomization methods, and players can be completely confident that our randomization methods are sound.

funktion
02-11-2014, 02:59 PM
Edit: you guys beat me to it... that was fast.

Refugee
02-11-2014, 04:29 PM
I've seen that randomization has been shown to be truly random. Are there any posts from CZE about whether they have dismissed the idea of making shuffles non-random. If so I don't recall seeing that and would love a link (or just a quote) towards that topic.

Again, I don't care either way. True randomization to me just slightly changes the strength of some cards and reduces the strength of others but doesn't make the game more or less fun to play. Some people however feel strongly that "random with help" would be a better system (something along the lines of an increased chance of a resource draw for every non-resource draw).

If it's going to be discussed in a future update as Yoss believes than I'm sure it'll be covered in more detail than Cory would probably go into on his blog.

That stuff said, I know this is a very controversial issue for some people and I hope that discussion of it can remain in the appropriate threads rather than being discussed here.

Shaqattaq
02-12-2014, 01:25 PM
Hey all. Cory just posted his answers to the Q&A here. Enjoy! http://coryhudsonjones.tumblr.com/post/76449580127/blog-post-number-2

Stok3d
02-12-2014, 01:29 PM
Hey all. Cory just posted his answers to the Q&A here. Enjoy! http://coryhudsonjones.tumblr.com/post/76449580127/blog-post-number-2

Thanks!

Edswor
02-12-2014, 01:30 PM
The new card frames looks really good. An eta for when we will be able to see them in the game?

Refugee
02-12-2014, 01:30 PM
Some very cool info O_O

bojanglesz
02-12-2014, 01:37 PM
What an awesome post! So much new info and great insight. Slacker Backer cut off on April 1 is kinda funny.

Rendakor
02-12-2014, 01:44 PM
Good read. I guess that means Open Beta around April-ish.

Aradon
02-12-2014, 01:58 PM
The bubbles on the right look like gem socket slots. I wonder if they'll be visible for cards without sockets, like the ones pictured. I would expect they should be hidden if the card does not have sockets available. In any case, I really like the redesign. The pattern variations on the text boxes by color look quite nice. Not sure the name line needs to be so thick, but we'll find out once we see them in game.

Disappointed that next week's blog will be about Epic Spell Wars rather than Hex, but I guess it's not my blog, nor is it 'Hex: Blogs of Fate.' ... Oh, what might have been.

:)

Rycajo
02-12-2014, 02:01 PM
Yes Cory, thank you for the blog!

April 1st is the first day after Q1 ends. So that makes sense along Cory's previously announced time frame for beta. I'm not sure that will coincide directly with Open Beta, as Closed beta needs to run for a few weeks before Open, and server switch should happen 30 days before Closed beta (meaning the server switch would have to happen within the next week or two - which would be awesome).

The Might system for PvE sounds very interesting. I think I like the idea of Might building in each dungeon, allowing me to play my champion a little different each time. I wonder how Might works with mercenaries?

Kilo24
02-12-2014, 02:01 PM
Thanks for the info, Cory. I find myself rather intrigued by the leveling systems.

Would I be wrong to presume that both leveling systems work equally for mercenaries as well as champions? If so, then my major worry about mercenaries became a lot smaller: It looks like the champions might actually not completely eclipse mercenaries, then. That Warrior tree that was our sole source of PvE class information strongly suggested that mercenaries were far worse, but the new Ranger class abilities were much more in line power-level-wise.

It also seems like the Might system is going to provide important decisions in dungeons in a way that the standard levels in MMOs can't, and greatly diminish the amount of grinding that levelling usually entails in doing so. It also lets new players play with fun abilities instead of wading through god-knows-how-many-hours-of-levelling before they can touch them.

I'm pretty happy with the news. Thanks again, Cory - you've made waiting for the eventual PvE more interesting.

Rycajo
02-12-2014, 02:07 PM
Perhaps the meta leveling system will also open up new options within the Might system? So you progress within the dungeon each time you play it, but your options at each new Might level could change based on your meta level or even your equipment.

hex_colin
02-12-2014, 02:10 PM
The bubbles on the right look like gem socket slots. I wonder if they'll be visible for cards without sockets, like the ones pictured. I would expect they should be hidden if the card does not have sockets available. In any case, I really like the redesign. The pattern variations on the text boxes by color look quite nice. Not sure the name line needs to be so thick, but we'll find out once we see them in game.

They are gem sockets, and they look ultra cool when you socket gems. The gems themselves have glowy, smoky particle effects, and they cause runes to light up on either side of the socket.

hex_colin
02-12-2014, 02:11 PM
Also, art spoiler for my favorite card in Set 2!!!

bojanglesz
02-12-2014, 02:14 PM
Yes Cory, thank you for the blog!

April 1st is the first day after Q1 ends. So that makes sense along Cory's previously announced time frame for beta. I'm not sure that will coincide directly with Open Beta, as Closed beta needs to run for a few weeks before Open, and server switch should happen 30 days before Closed beta (meaning the server switch would have to happen within the next week or two - which would be awesome).

The Might system for PvE sounds very interesting. I think I like the idea of Might building in each dungeon, allowing me to play my champion a little different each time. I wonder how Might works with mercenaries?

I would guess their hope is to have the closed PVP after the sign-ups close (April 1st) considering its "closed".

Rycajo
02-12-2014, 02:29 PM
I would guess their hope is to have the closed PVP after the sign-ups close (April 1st) considering its "closed".

That makes sense. Slacker backer includes an alpha invite. Why not shut off that product as soon as Alpha is over?

This is still good news as server switch would occur around the end of the month.

Stok3d
02-12-2014, 02:37 PM
I have to say I get a little excited each time I peek through these beautiful artworks in hopes that Cory may "accidentally" throw in a DL preview and not mention that it's a KS artwork. ;)

Awesome Update Cory!

hammer
02-12-2014, 02:54 PM
I Love the new CARD FRAMES!!!

The plan to push ahead with PVP BETA and stagger PVE launch is a good one, and it will mean we are playing monetized competitive Hex sooner than I anticipated.

Sounds like Squirrels vs Dinosaurs will be the first PVE content we get our hands on "we will start with an arena system that introduces you to mercenaries, leveling, and using equipment on cards. After that, we will roll out building your characters, dungeons, and raids"

The move to beta hardware will hopefully help some of the issues with alpha, but I totally understand why the early alpha has been run on such light resource to make the client and engine as efficient as possible for scalability.

I am surprised that the HEX team is 50 strong, I never really sat down and thought about the number of people involved but 50 and growing is awesome I like the dedicated Systems Design team (Economy and Esports)

You might joke about the cliff, but if Hex fails I want to hire the clown (J/K) :D

I am glad the launch day server load is being considered now it is a huge obstacle to clear cleanly.

I have no clue what marathon format is for limited I assume it is a larger tournament with multiple rounds and a cut to the top 8. Sounds like fun!!

"I would have to say the one feature I am most excited to get into your hands is… multiplayer raids!" -- Way to make me think even more about the elusive raid leader perk I missed :D

Nice insight to the history of TCG raids as I never played WOWTCG.

Good to see alpha numbers holding up, I hope you are correct about 1 million active users that sounds smoking to me, I hadn't considered anywhere near that high as a minimum but I really hope Hex does hit that kind of audience and simply explodes in user number.

I think it is awesome you still offer refunds, but man I cant comprehend why anyone would seek out this option, let alone 150 kickstarter backers. Each to their own I guess. Any more thoughts on charity donation / auction of these?

I am new to the whole Class system and leveling in general having never played an MMO, I will enjoy reading over the spec layout and getting my head around this component of the game.

Free digital novel to Kickstarter backers, that is really cool I certainly didn't expect it to be free, I am really looking forward to reading this and exploring the lore, which is unusual for me as lore in the past for other games hasn't spiked my interest- Must be the awesome backstory of that moon, the hexing gems and necrotic etc. I hope the hard copy ships international :D

Video content of the HEXCON sounds great, as a dad of three young children and living in Europe I doubt I will be able to attend due to financial limitations so the more video and coverage the better.

Thank you Cory and Thank you Tyler and the rest of the strong 50 person Hex Team :D
Great insights.

Daer
02-12-2014, 02:57 PM
Great update. Loving the look of the new card frames, although I wish they showed slightly more of the blood/ruby/etc. border.



I have no clue what marathon format is for limited I assume it is a larger tournament with multiple rounds and a cut to the top 8. Sounds like fun!!


From the Hex website, no clue if it has changed since its been there from the start:


Marathon Tournaments

This is like league play on steroids. Players will sign up for this sealed deck tournament and play as many games as they can within a 6 hour period. We’ll allow entries into the tournament at any time while it runs. As a catch up mechanic and to keep things interesting, we’ll let players buy an additional booster after each hour passes while the tournament runs.

We will track players’ total games and their number of wins. The win-loss differential is what we’ll use to track standings in real time. The tiebreaker is the total number of games played. After 6 hours the top 40% of players get prizes. There are 4 tiers for prizes: Top 1% of the players, 2%-5% of the players, 6%-15% of the players and 16%-40% of the players.

Kroan
02-12-2014, 03:00 PM
Sounds like Squirrels vs Dinosaurs will be the first PVE content we get our hands on "we will start with an arena system that introduces you to mercenaries, leveling, and using equipment on cards. After that, we will roll out building your characters, dungeons, and raids" I think Cory means the Orc Arena Dungeon :)

mach
02-12-2014, 03:06 PM
From the Hex website, no clue if it has changed since its been there from the start:

I hope it is, because as it is it sounds awful. It's bad enough to get a slow opponent when all you lose is a bit of your time. But with this a slow opponent may cost you prizes just by being slow. And it will be nearly impossible to place well with a slow deck. Not to mention players stalling to hurt their opponents.

hammer
02-12-2014, 03:11 PM
I hope it is, because as it is it sounds awful. It's bad enough to get a slow opponent when all you lose is a bit of your time. But with this a slow opponent may cost you prizes just by being slow. And it will be nearly impossible to place well with a slow deck. Not to mention players stalling to hurt their opponents.

Thanks for the link Daer - and agree with Mach sounds strange as defined there are some logistical concerns.

mudkip
02-12-2014, 03:25 PM
Hey all. Cory just posted his answers to the Q&A here. Enjoy! http://coryhudsonjones.tumblr.com/post/76449580127/blog-post-number-2

Nice write-up, Cory!


Good read. I guess that means Open Beta around April-ish.

With the Slacker-backer closing at the start of April, I'm guessing they're on track for Closed Beta in Q1. Considering that's only 6 weeks away, we're probably going to get some interesting patches soon.


They are gem sockets, and they look ultra cool when you socket gems. The gems themselves have glowy, smoky particle effects, and they cause runes to light up on either side of the socket.

That's hot.

Xenavire
02-12-2014, 04:39 PM
Ugh, I really hate to be the pessimist here, but I doubt April 1st will be the closed PvP Beta. Look at the systems that need to be implemented between now and a month from the start of the closed PvP Beta:


Collection Management (depends on what this entails when complete - we have deck building though which may be more than enough for now.)

Draft Tournaments

Deck Sleeves

Store and Pack Opening

Primal Packs

Basic in-game Tutorial

Mail

Mac Support

VIP Program

Guilds

Auction House

Double-back


Now while I am super confident in the teams abilities, this would give them about 10 weeks to push out some huge, huge features, most of which will require extensive testing (look at constructed tournaments, we still have a good deal of trouble with it after more than a month.) I do think they are going to speed up a good deal over the coming two or three months, but there are limits, and they have to know that - unless they are going to release all of those features this month, it is unlikely they will have everything fixed and working smoothly before the start of May.

So I actually expect the Slacker backer option to go away several weeks before the server jump, meaning closed PvP beta would start mid-late May.

Gwaer
02-12-2014, 05:02 PM
Last time someone asked about when SB would be ending they said a bit before closed beta. So I'd expect there will be at least a month.

Vineyard-Spider
02-12-2014, 05:04 PM
Sometimes getting too much money for a kickstarter is a curse. Obsessive/compulsive behavior regarding game states may cause this game to delay so long that the majority of people will lose interest and go elsewhere for entertainment.

bojanglesz
02-12-2014, 05:34 PM
Ugh, I really hate to be the pessimist here, but I doubt April 1st will be the closed PvP Beta. Look at the systems that need to be implemented between now and a month from the start of the closed PvP Beta:


Collection Management (depends on what this entails when complete - we have deck building though which may be more than enough for now.)

Draft Tournaments

Deck Sleeves

Store and Pack Opening

Primal Packs

Basic in-game Tutorial

Mail

Mac Support

VIP Program

Guilds

Auction House

Double-back


Now while I am super confident in the teams abilities, this would give them about 10 weeks to push out some huge, huge features, most of which will require extensive testing (look at constructed tournaments, we still have a good deal of trouble with it after more than a month.) I do think they are going to speed up a good deal over the coming two or three months, but there are limits, and they have to know that - unless they are going to release all of those features this month, it is unlikely they will have everything fixed and working smoothly before the start of May.

So I actually expect the Slacker backer option to go away several weeks before the server jump, meaning closed PvP beta would start mid-late May.

Yeah that's a shit ton of features, never really thought about it like that. Double-back itself is a gargantuan task, then we still have AH and trading/buying mechanisms. Yikes.

Rokku
02-12-2014, 06:56 PM
Cory mentioned that card abilities in PVP will not change once it is released.

What is the definition of released? It sounds like that should be the closed beta since thats when people start paying for packs.

Anyone know for sure?

Gwaer
02-12-2014, 07:03 PM
Yea, after someone pays for the card. Which means opens it out of a pack bought with plat. As soon as the game is monetized.

mydragoon
02-13-2014, 12:11 AM
before i start, a bit of background...

backed via KS. alpha came out, got super excited, checked my emails every minute or so... got my email, installed. played a few times. stopped. continue to read about updates, more updates and patches... but sadly, i never bothered with the alpha. i think we still have got more patches and updates before we'll even hit beta. then decided to check the forum today... posted a bit, read what others are saying, etc... in a way, i've got renewed interest in this game.

my Q is kinda simple and also posted on KS about a week back. i'm not upset with the delays (compared to what was planned during the KS campaign). I am just curious to know... when can we expect BETA and when is the official release of this game to public? no, i won't hold your reply against you (if Hex gets delayed again), but it'll still be nice to at least know when we can expect certain things... :D

mach
02-13-2014, 12:14 AM
Yea, after someone pays for the card. Which means opens it out of a pack bought with plat. As soon as the game is monetized.

I don't think "after someone pays for the card" is the proper standard, because some cards (the KS promos) have already been paid for.

Gwaer
02-13-2014, 02:50 AM
True. The KS promos have already paid for. I'd expect them to remain unchanged because of that. They're in a weird place though. I could see arguments to change them if it turned out that was necessary. We have not yet been given the KSU promo cards... *shrug* I stand by my previous post. When the game is monetized is where I would expect the cutoff for major card changes to be.

Mahes
02-13-2014, 06:52 AM
Ugh, I really hate to be the pessimist here, but I doubt April 1st will be the closed PvP Beta. Look at the systems that need to be implemented between now and a month from the start of the closed PvP Beta:


Collection Management (depends on what this entails when complete - we have deck building though which may be more than enough for now.)

Draft Tournaments

Deck Sleeves

Store and Pack Opening

Primal Packs

Basic in-game Tutorial

Mail

Mac Support

VIP Program

Guilds

Auction House

Double-back


Now while I am super confident in the teams abilities, this would give them about 10 weeks to push out some huge, huge features, most of which will require extensive testing (look at constructed tournaments, we still have a good deal of trouble with it after more than a month.) I do think they are going to speed up a good deal over the coming two or three months, but there are limits, and they have to know that - unless they are going to release all of those features this month, it is unlikely they will have everything fixed and working smoothly before the start of May.

So I actually expect the Slacker backer option to go away several weeks before the server jump, meaning closed PvP beta would start mid-late May.

I would not say you were a pessimist at all. I would say you are a realist using information and trends as a way to gauge the reality of the situation. Given their current trend, I would agree with you 100%. They have not shown yet to be capable of fixing problems in a short period (1-2 weeks) of time. Given the delay in progress we have had, it would be very natural to assume that the trend would continue.

In the MMO world, testers like to use a phrase called " The miracle patch". This phrase is used to describe a part of a process that takes a bad game and suddenly makes it a great game. Now this game is already fun to play, so the phrase cannot be used in the same way but, it could be used in a technical way. Based on that, I am waiting for the "Miracle Patch" that suddenly catches us up on most of the current bugs in the system. Countering the cascade effect that has occurred recently, would go a long way towards making me believe they will reach that date.

bojanglesz
02-13-2014, 09:39 AM
I would not say you were a pessimist at all. I would say you are a realist using information and trends as a way to gauge the reality of the situation. Given their current trend, I would agree with you 100%. They have not shown yet to be capable of fixing problems in a short period (1-2 weeks) of time. Given the delay in progress we have had, it would be very natural to assume that the trend would continue.

In the MMO world, testers like to use a phrase called " The miracle patch". This phrase is used to describe a part of a process that takes a bad game and suddenly makes it a great game. Now this game is already fun to play, so the phrase cannot be used in the same way but, it could be used in a technical way. Based on that, I am waiting for the "Miracle Patch" that suddenly catches us up on most of the current bugs in the system. Countering the cascade effect that has occurred recently, would go a long way towards making me believe they will reach that date.

Definitely. And all the cards aren't even in. Although I did notice this tweet yesterday mentioning that the blog has "1 or 2 hints" on the Beta release. Probably the switch to better servers and the April 1st date, so they're obviously planning something for the April/May timeframe. They must feel like they're getting close, but we'll see

Tweet: https://twitter.com/hextcg/status/433667328119549952

NaryaDL0re
02-13-2014, 10:14 AM
I m in the middle of my exams and probably shouldnt even be reading/posting so I ll make this short:

The leveling experience as far as I grasped it while reading through the blog once kinda bothered me a lot.

Its sounded like one account level, thats basically connected with your name/lord/keep/nothing and gives global bonuses and than a temporary/ each dungeon resetting / might system ... that lets you interactively customize the strengths and weakness of your merc/hero/cls depending on your deck, the raid, the dungeon or whatever needs.

Both sound great... but neither has anything to do with the character progression that MMOs are about.

Neither gives the opportunity to "connect" and "identify" with ... lets say "my hunter" or "the evil mage" or "hot rogue". That you build up, gain experience over huge amounts of timeinvestement and grow accustomed to...

I m most certainly not going to develope the same attachment or lasting feelings towards an abstract concept like my keep or my account, as I would towards individual characters that have been created and developed over time.


TLDR: I really like your 2 leveling systems... but where is the important third core? can I still level my mage from 1-50 and expect lasting growth?


EDIT: the more I think about it, the less sense it actually makes.
Because that WoW-Developer you have sitting there probably
isnt kept busy designing a couple of might abilities for 6 classes
+ one concept for account wide growth...
I still imagine there is a robust system in place for lasting
character customization that exceeds simple equipment (which honestly
feels really detached from your character and more linked with the cards)
and temporary dungeon buffs.

ossuary
02-13-2014, 10:26 AM
It's not really that big of a deal. It's more like you have character-specific level progression, and then you ALSO have an additional, account-level perk system that lets you have some nice bonuses that get applied to every character you make, including brand new ones. It's something to reward you for playing for longer, by having it not be such a terrible grind when you make a new character. Like company-supported twinking. :)

Also, the blog was talking about the in-dungeon "might" progression of the overall dungeon encounter, not necessarily the permanent character-driven level progression (like the partial skill tree we saw for the warrior during the KS campaign). We still haven't seen much of anything more about that.

Yoss
02-13-2014, 10:32 AM
I agree about the level-up reveal. What happened to our classes? Races? Our champions are now not going to level up? But mercs ARE going to level up? I am seriously confused. I won't say disappointed yet, because what I'm seeing just doesn't make sense to me.

In my worst interpretation, they've now moved your class/race choice all the way up to account level. If you want a new character, you have to make a new account (and bye bye KS bonus if you do). That's just about the worst thing I can imagine, and if it comes to pass I might want to back down from Dungeon Crawler to just King level. I'd imagine Raid Leader would also feel very put out if it's one character per account.

We need to be able to have multiple characters per account, each new one progressing from zero to infinity through the content. Having account-level stuff is fine, but then it needs to have a toggle for turning parts of it off if you really just want to play through the content as if it's truly a fresh start. Along those lines, it would sure be nice if each character could be (optionally) restricted to a subset of your total card collection somehow, maybe just with a flag for PVE drops that says which character found it.

Yoss
02-13-2014, 10:33 AM
It's not really that big of a deal. It's more like you have character-specific level progression, and then you ALSO have an additional, account-level perk system that lets you have some nice bonuses that get applied to every character you make, including brand new ones. It's something to reward you for playing for longer, by having it not be such a terrible grind when you make a new character. Like company-supported twinking. :)

Also, the blog was talking about the in-dungeon "might" progression of the overall dungeon encounter, not necessarily the permanent character-driven level progression (like the partial skill tree we saw for the warrior during the KS campaign). We still haven't seen much of anything more about that.


we have two systems. One leveling system is meta-based and affects your entire account. The second leveling system is dungeon-by-dungeon.

It doesn't sound like there's a third system for a traditional MMO progression.

BlackRoger
02-13-2014, 10:39 AM
First of all, thank you Cory for answering all my questions!
I didn't think you would actually go and answer all 3 of them :D


Ugh, I really hate to be the pessimist here, but I doubt April 1st will be the closed PvP Beta. Look at the systems that need to be implemented between now and a month from the start of the closed PvP Beta:


The question is, what did Cory mean by "those are tasks for the beta"?
It would make more sense to me if he means these features must be complete by the end of the beta, i.e they will be available in the beta, but not neccesarilly at the start.
So who knows, maybe closed beta isn't that far.



TLDR: I really like your 2 leveling systems... but where is the important third core? can I still level my mage from 1-50 and expect lasting growth?

I get where you're coming from, but in a way Cory's idea does make more sense.
If you have only a couple of classes, a normal MMO levels system is fine, but with both classes and merceneries, do you really want to have to level them all individually?
Also this way, old content doesn't become too easy to grind once your champion is "too high level" for it.
In the end, this system lets you be more free in switching between the classes/mercenaries without having to redo all previous content just to get to a decent level, while still making it fun to revisit old content for the loot you're still missing.

About the new card frames:
Where's the rarity symbol now? and what do you think the 2 symbols at the bottumn are?
One must be the double-back, but the second?

Rendakor
02-13-2014, 10:59 AM
The other symbol is probably rarity. The side circles are for socketing gems, I believe.

Xenavire
02-13-2014, 11:01 AM
He obviously means pre-monetisation, and it has been repeatedly and heavily implied that open beta will start monetised.

Auction house - must be implemented before money changes hands. The full set also needs to be released. Mail should be done by then too, and guilds are a must (they promised kickstarters priority on guild creation - before open beta obviously). Draft is confirmed for alpha. Double back will be integrated into the auction house, so that is required.

Pretty much the only thing on the list that could realistically be delayed is card sleeves. So yes, these are pre-beta requirements.

NaryaDL0re
02-13-2014, 11:09 AM
@HEX
really dig the new frames... soooo happy to see sth that bothered me from the start get such devoted attention from the right guy. Its still marginally too "futuristic" for my medevial fantasy tastes, but looks gorgous non the less.
Now I cant wait on the polished interface and gameboard + the other 4 gameboards <3.

@BlackRoger

Twinking (google if unclear) is a big part of MMO longevity and gameplay. I do NOT want to level my account ONCE ;((.
(Or maybe the account once (look paragon D3) but still have a solid character driven progression on top of it per char)

Mercenaries....
I could write a lot(!) about this, but a concise way to put my preferred implementation of this feature could be: Mercenaries should provide short term, niche, conceptually different and enticing ways to play the game. They should do this via providing bonuses/abilities that are small in number, but big in impact and have high synergy with certain ways to build/play decks. They should be reasonable quick to level up and :

BY NO MEANS: should they be able to completely compete with the main classes in an overall scope.

They can (and should) be the best(most efficient) way to tackle certain raids/dungeons/quests.
They can (and should) be a nice opportunity to try wacky stuff that wouldnt work otherwise.
etc...

But again: If I can just completely throw away my named, leveled, story driven, farmed, etc Character... for some random funky Mercenary... than emotional long term attachement and lore have no place in this game. Which doesnt make any sense, because you cannot have a community be long term engaged in an adventure, if they have nothing personal to identify with and relate to the occuring events.

So if I can literally take 1 merc and play through the entire pve campaign with it like its nothing... and ditch my "cls". Than this entire merc design will do more long term damage than it could ever hope to compensate for via the diversification it creates.


The counter question for you to easy content is: Do you want a sense of progression?
If Basically every character is equally strong given my account level... than I can literally
only play hex ONCE, without creating a new account. (only talking Pve here and story)

And yes, I want to level each cls, I want to level each merc (not as long as each cls) and
I want the ability to start this game over for a few times and experience it different each time.





Disclaimer: dont get me wrong, I love HEX more than enough for its PvP component only and would
support and play it just as much if pve never existed to begin with. This is no deperate q.q
or deflected flame. Its just my 2 cents of what I know about PvE experiences to be true.
If there is nothing that I can grow with emotionally outside my equipment box and card album...
than the pve component will be a one time story, x times farmfest, forgotten part of this game
that never lives up to its potential. Which will still leave Hex as the defining third chapter of
esports. (RTS/shooter being the first and MOBAs the second)

BlackRoger
02-13-2014, 11:29 AM
@BlackRoger

Twinking (google if unclear) is a big part of MMO longevity and gameplay. I do NOT want to level my account ONCE ;((.
(Or maybe the account once (look paragon D3) but still have a solid character driven progression on top of it per char)


I think it's a bit problematic to look at it that way.
In an MMO most of your gameplay expirience is decided by your class.
In a TCG it's mostly decided by the decks you can make.

Even if you "start a new champion" you will still have all the cards you gained earlier, and thus a relatively high power-level.
If you're looking to start over with a new char and have that exact "new char low power-level" feel then I don't think you have a choice but starting a new account either way.

And what happens when you reach "max-level" ?
If you only play the game to level your character, then there is no reason to play them anymore?
Do the Hex team need to up the max level and invent new abilities to all classes/merceneries just to get you to play the new dungeons?

I don't like the entire idea of "leveling" and "end-game content" as 2 different things, it backs you to a corner having to make treadmill never-ending content.

I think that instead of making you make "alts", the right and proven way online CCGs have been using is to make it worth your while to revisit the old dungeons, either with hard-modes, hard to get loot, or, if there is no other way, then dailies and achievements.

NaryaDL0re
02-13-2014, 12:05 PM
1.) the cards are within your controle to use or not. But I agree that this is a "brake in the forth wall" if you will.

2.) Hex is supposedly an MMO and a TCG... therefore I would expect it to manage these conflicts.
If 90% of my power is derived from my cardpool, than HEX in fact will never come close to be called an MMO.
If the cardpool only makes for less than 50% of my power in pve, we are talking actual PvE content!

3.) I never implied that I play the game for the sole purpose of story/leveling etc. My entire lower bracket states that I value the PvP component and therefore more or less endless endgame via metagames/tournaments/drafts/sealed much higher.

4.) Yes, I expect new regular content... just like every other tcg and mmo. I certainly wont grind the same dungeons forever.

5.) That does not mean that the older content shouldnt level with you. I m a HUGE proponent of relative content.
The concept of old dungeons "leveling" with you and providing you with an "increasingly large pool of content"
rather than just doing early level stuff once and be done with it.

conclusion:

I agree with the positive propositions you make, and I dont see any point in my earlier posts that disagree with them.
That doesnt change the fact that what you are talking is nothing else than a TCG/CCG. it has nothing to do with an MMO.

And even though I am sure that Hex is going to be one, probably the defining TCG in our time, completely overtaking
MTG via a better marketing model and bigger design space while leaving Hearthstone behind via aggressive E-Sports,
that doesnt mean that HEX can "only" be the best TCG every... Cory has stated multiple times that he has higher goals for Hex than just that.
However the informations that I found in his blog (which might be my own mistake or a simple space issue)
are far from anything that could qualify as an MMO experience.

BlackRoger
02-13-2014, 01:00 PM
Hex is supposedly an MMO and a TCG... therefore I would expect it to manage these conflicts.
If 90% of my power is derived from my cardpool, than HEX in fact will never come close to be called an MMO.
If the cardpool only makes for less than 50% of my power in pve, we are talking actual PvE content!


I think you are confusing MMO with MMORPG.
MMO stands for Massive Multipleyer Online.
There are many MMOs that have no leveling systems (many MMO-shooters and MMO-strategy games have you only leveling your account or not leveling anything at all).

Sure, there must be a progression, and there is one - gaining cards, mercs, gear and who knows what else.


4.) Yes, I expect new regular content... just like every other tcg and mmo. I certainly wont grind the same dungeons forever.

I guess I failed to explain my point here.
Sure, MMOs need to bring out new content, thats not the issue, but how do they "convince you" to play it?
Say half a year into the game the devs put out 5 new dungeons, what reason is there for you to do them with all your alts if they are all max level?
Does Hex need to increase the classes max level, add new abilities every few months?

Or do you want a WoW end-game treadmill where each dungeon gives you gear that makes only that specific character stronger, so that you must do the dungeons a few times for each character to keep all your alts up to par.
It's possible, but means the entire "gear improves cards" idea needs to be reimagined.

There is no good solution here if "leveling" is what makes you play your alts, a different stimulation needs to exist.


5.) That does not mean that the older content shouldnt level with you. I m a HUGE proponent of relative content.
The concept of old dungeons "leveling" with you and providing you with an "increasingly large pool of content"

That would be awesome if it would be implemented.
Unfortunetally tweeking some numbers on a mmorpg boss to tweaking actual cards in a TCG is very different and I'm not sure it can be done as easily.

The safer method is usually to have one normal mode and one or 2 hard modes, which are tailored for the "end-game" power level.

MoikPEI
02-13-2014, 01:25 PM
This blog is the best thing.
I was honestly not expecting my questions to be answered. Especially not the refund counts.
I am impressed as f*** over here. I still haven't logged back in/updated my client, but I definitely feel a bit soothed about my investment. The blog is working. A few more of these and I might be re-sold on the game again.

Yoss
02-13-2014, 02:29 PM
@ "It's an MMO, not MMORPG"
Hex was sold as MMORPG + TCG. They say MMOTCG as shorthand because MMORPGTCG looks and sounds stupid, plus most people think RPG when they hear MMO. CZE even showed of one of the classes during KS, and talked about "all the normal things you'd expect in an MMO" with an implied context of World of Warcraft.

@ Reasons why you want to play content with more than one character
Levelling is obviously one thing, but it's not the only thing. They've already said back during KS that the story is not perfectly linear; there are alternate endings. There are choices to make that will change your story line, even if it is just a little bit. They gave the example of whether you save the Mayor or not during the Kraken dungeon, where you need to read the flavor text of the Mayor to realize that he's important and maybe to think twice before killing him (even though he's on your enemy's team). There's also the obvious new loot. You probably won't get all the new stuff on first pass, so when you go back, why not also do it with a new character? The class abilities will alter how your decks run, so you could have a significantly different experience as Cleric versus Warrior (or whatever).

@ Hard modes
We had a whole thread about this, and it's actually easier for TCG to do than it is for normal MMO. We came up with tons of ideas, which would cost almost nothing to implement and would create an easily scaled progression of difficulty. Highlight on post 33, which adds the "easily scaled" I'm referring to.
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=27026

Gwaer
02-13-2014, 02:33 PM
Hex was not sold as an mmorpg tcg, just an MMO TCG, they even called out specifically that it was not an mmorpg.

*edit* That actually isn't true. Though they said many times it would not contain certain aspects, the main page does call out mmorpg's specifically. Still, it's a difficult line to draw what must be included to count.

Yoss
02-13-2014, 02:34 PM
HEX combines the amazing community and roleplaying aspects of a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (MMO) with the compelling collectible and strategic gameplay of a Trading Card Game (TCG) to create an entirely new category of a game, the MMO/TCG.

...
Create Your Champion From 6 Classes And 8 Races

Emphasis added. It is exactly as I said: people use "MMO" to refer to "MMORPG" by default.

http://hextcg.com/game/overview/

NaryaDL0re
02-13-2014, 02:37 PM
@MoikPEI agreed, that blog is a very welcome "depth" addition to the updates.

@BlackRoger

You are right, I m completely associating MMO with MMORPG. thats for several reasons.
1.) crypto often contextually hinted at ex WoW-Designers and the likes being responsible for pve
2.) the wikipedia definition of MMO is about as bland as you would expect... there is no meaning to MMO
cory always talks about revolutionizing the genre and never before seen "destinations".
Magic the Gathering Online already qualifies for wikipedias MMO definition... so nothing new there.
Almost all the Ipad tcg/ccg qualify as MMO as well...
3.) So the combination these things + additional information (the pve spoiler of warrior talent tree)
lead to the natural conclusion that this game is supposed to have a strong role play component
making for the RPG behind its MMO.


Yes I expect new levels with new expansions... why not? its not even competing for resources...
The guys responsible for PvP-set-design or PvE-set-design are apperantly (and rightly so) not the
ones responsible for the RPG part of the cls-design and character progression.
The engeneering part of adding skills/abilities to a robust system are negligable... etc

So yeah why not, why not new dungeons, new items, new cards, and new classes or expanded levels.

And yeah any implementation is fine. Relative scaling is always the dream, but Hard-Modes are just as fine for endgame longevity. I always wondered how the fuc* they are going to balance the PvE aspect in a Tcg environment WITH classes etc. So they either figured out its far too impossible and are scrapping constant character progression for that reason, or they have some amazing plan. (I imagine making PvE so unbalanced that it doesnt matter for gameplay and fun because there are multiple "broken" things to choose from and content ist fun enough that you dont care enough to "optimize" the dungeonruns via "the perfect broken combo deck")

Gwaer
02-13-2014, 02:39 PM
There won't be a world you're moving around in, there won't be a lot of things you expect from a normal rpg. Many things will be very different. We'll have to see what they come up with, but from my experience at the CZE offices their leveling mechanics are exactly what this type of game needs, so you should check your expectations from other rpgs at the door. That realm is always evolving anyway.

NaryaDL0re
02-13-2014, 03:07 PM
@Gwaer

Without any intention of insult: I find it increasingly (with every third post I have read written by you over the last couple of months) difficult to take your opinion as well founded and neutral.
What I asked for in this thread (humbly and openly considering I m mistaken) is an explanation on why one feature that is already openly advertised on the hex homepage and has been hinted at at multiple occasions, is suddenly gone. I m completely open towards a multitude of reasons, be it priorities, balance, scope, empirical data of QA or whatever.

However all you provide is the 10000th episode of "trust in cryptozoic"/"stop questioning things". And I m actively tired off being preached at by some priest that often (not always) doesnt seem to care enough to join a debate but rather preaches away unfoundedly.

You have been there and seen stuff? Great. How about some contructive input on WHY and HOW the changes "felt exactly like what this type of game needs". I m sorry that your overall authority hasnt reached a scale on which such a statement satisfies me without explanation.

Refugee
02-13-2014, 03:10 PM
I was actually very excited about the two leveling systems described so I'm a bit surprised to see people having reservations about them. A long term "grindy" account wide level system scratches that long term constant improvement itch for me quite nicely. Meanwhile the short term might system for dungeons let's me play a different character a different way over and over again.

I do understand the desire to build an attachment to a core character which improves over time but I guess my account being that "character" is good enough for me.

NaryaDL0re
02-13-2014, 03:17 PM
I agree with both systems sounding awesome and engaging. I cant wait to play it.
As of right now I just havent heard the reason why these systems have to (or if they do at all)
come at the expense of actuall RPG elements like character longterm and deep character progression.

Kilo24
02-13-2014, 03:41 PM
One big reason to not have a grand persistent skill tree from 1-50 for each class is because it's very hard to keep unique and interesting abilities at each level without also making the challenges scale accordingly. Not only is that a big design challenge (unless you handle it by just arbitrarily changing the numbers like WoW or Borderlands 2), it means that characters are going to be limited at any given point in which dungeons are good for them to run. That - and also because mercenaries would be very, very hard to keep at similar power levels to champions if they have 50 levels of abilities - is what I'd guess the biggest reason for the change to be. Hex is not designed to infinitely scale up to higher and higher levels.

It also means that you are much more able to experiment with other champions because you can get the full range of abilities from one dungeon playthrough instead of the hundreds it might take otherwise. I'd consider that a strong benefit in a game like Hex.

And - thanks to the account leveling system also existing - it doesn't remove long-term character progression. Consider your keep owner to be the progressing character here.

Gwaer
02-13-2014, 03:51 PM
@NaryaDL0re

Without any intention of insult: I find it increasingly (with virtually every post I have read written by you over the last couple of months) difficult to take your opinion as well founded and neutral.


You're the only person on my ignore list. Every post you've ever made up to now has been relentlessly anti-cze and hex. I can only take your current thread in the same vein as all of your previous ones. Having just gotten back from CZE, and playing PVE, I can say with certainty that their leveling system works fantastically with their game. Even most traditional RPG's experiment with different class/character mechanics, some even have gone so far as not having multiple characters but letting a single character level up multiple jobs. This is not that much of a stretch, and I've yet to take this problem seriously, I'm more than happy to discuss it, but calling me out for being opinionated in one way or another would best be done by someone with a bit more neutral stance, I think.

BlackRoger
02-13-2014, 03:57 PM
@Narya
I'm still a bit sad that you don't like the new rpg system but I guess I won't be able to change your mind about what an MMORPG should be.

As I've said before, personally I've grown to hate the whole leveling parts of MMORPGS since usually I just want to get to the raids, and if this game will let me do whatever I enjoy more with whatever class I want without worrying about 50 levels of grinding on the way I won't argue with that :)
but to each his own.

I do disagree with you about the adding new levels all the time - I know they said pve won't be the most balanced thing in the world, but this sort of design leads to such complicated long and unbalanced ability trees for no good reason (Even blizzard gave up on their long trees after level 85 and went with the 1 option every 15 levels which isn't very fun leveling-wise).
And it does take design time and resources, so much that no MMORPG does that - it's much easier to just make "end-game" content without having to constantly invent more character progression.

@Yoss
About your reasons to do dungeons except leveling, I completely agree that alternate endings + more loot are the best reasons to redo a dungeon.
All I'm saying is, if we do it the normal MMORPG way: "leveling" + "end-game", then you will do the first dungeons to level and the end-game ones for loot.
So why not just skip the leveling and do them all for loot/story?
Why have 2 different stages for no real reason?
If everyone just wants to get to the end-game like usual make the entire game an "end-game".

Also, I did not say it was hard to make hard-modes, creating weird restrictions is easy.
I said it's hard to tailor the level of a dungeon to the level of the player, which is what I understood Narya implied.
Hard modes do not usually match themselves to the power-level of the user.

Rendakor
02-13-2014, 03:58 PM
Is there actually an ignore feature here in the forums, or is that a hypothetical ignore list?

ossuary
02-13-2014, 04:07 PM
Is there actually an ignore feature here in the forums, or is that a hypothetical ignore list?

Click on person's name, click on View Profile, click on Add to Ignore List. :)

Lawlschool
02-13-2014, 04:19 PM
I agree with both systems sounding awesome and engaging. I cant wait to play it.
As of right now I just havent heard the reason why these systems have to (or if they do at all)
come at the expense of actuall RPG elements like character longterm and deep character progression.

My guess is that it's just not feasible for a TCG based MMORPG, or because they want to go in a different direction. Your deck is really the main customization / progression part of the PvE experience, and your characters help support the deck with various abilities.

Let's not forget that we've only been teased an aspect of the leveling system, so there might be more to it than has been revealed.

Xenavire
02-13-2014, 04:21 PM
You have been there and seen stuff? Great. How about some contructive input on WHY and HOW the changes "felt exactly like what this type of game needs". I m sorry that your overall authority hasnt reached a scale on which such a statement satisfies me without explanation.

Everyone who visits is forced to sign an NDA. A non-disclosure agreement. Meaning he cannot speak about it - no-one can. Just stop. He has no choice but to say 'trust in CZE'. And to be perfectly honest, CZE has proven themselves reliable and trustworthy - if you aren't able to trust them, go find another game. We won't miss you, we really wont.

And frankly, it doesn't sound bad at all. Maybe it sounds strange in theory to some people, but you haven't had a hands-on opportunity - just calm down and wait, because you may be making wildly inaccurate and stupid assumptions based on a short section of text.

Try it when its out. If you don't like it, don't play it. If no-one likes it, they will change it. I think thats the best we can expect. Now just drop the issue.

bojanglesz
02-13-2014, 04:30 PM
Who gives a shit right now, we have tiny snippets about PVE so we really can't make any judgments about it. Even Gwaer or the others who have played it in, mind you, paper form. Just chill until we get a more in-depth look at it.

Gwaer
02-13-2014, 04:33 PM
Though poorly worded, and needlessly aggressive, I agree with the sentiment of bojangles. A lot can change before it gets to everyone and it may look nothing like what I played. Wait and see, talk about the pros and cons when everyone gets their hands on it.

mach
02-13-2014, 04:42 PM
Though poorly worded, and needlessly aggressive, I agree with the sentiment of bojangles. A lot can change before it gets to everyone and it may look nothing like what I played. Wait and see, talk about the pros and cons when everyone gets their hands on it.

But by then it may be too late to make major changes if they are needed.

That's why I'm really worried about the current schedule of no PvE before release or very late beta. Can they get it right eventually? Absolutely. Will they get it right on the first try? Judging by the PvP side of things, I'm very doubtful.

I'm worried that by the time of the big PvE reveal, it will be too late to fix any major problems. That's why I think they should be releasing as much information as possible about PvE now. Feedback based on this information won't be as useful as feedback based on actual playing, but it will still be far better than no feedback at all.

BlackRoger
02-13-2014, 04:51 PM
But by then it may be too late to make major changes if they are needed.

What exactly are you worried about here?
Unlike pvp they made no promises about not changing or removing pve cards.
If a boss deck is too strong/easy they can always adjust it.

NaryaDL0re
02-13-2014, 04:52 PM
@Kilo24 fair point and high up on the consideration list for possible good reasons.

@Gwaer you cant read what I write if you ignore me right oO? anyhow.
1.) I m not gonna quote all the positive things I said about hex, they are here in this very forum.
2.) I dont condemn people that choose to celebrate things they like with random people over a forum.
but for me personally a forum serves only one satisfying purpose, and that is actual discussion.
Discussion is pointless if everything is perfect and derives from critique.
You wont see me writing walls of text about what I like, because I like it and I enjoy it, not write it down.
3.) the first thing that happened after my post were 2 PMs I recieved telling me that what I wrote had to be written.
take this as you will as those people certainly had reasons to write a PM and not speak openly. (this is referring to my personal critique at you)
4.) Again you bring up no actual argument. All you say is that things can be different or have been tried.
If that would count as an argument FOR something, I could justify every change ever attempted with that.

@BlackRoger

Again the balance is one fair point against the system, I would still prefer to hear if that is in fact the only reason.

Also what you describe as "I want to get to the endgame" is a biiiig topic in itself.
I ll leave it at:
1.) people only want to get to the endgame so bad because you DONT start there...
2.) instant gratification kills deeper achievements and longevity... its a trend for commercial ripoff, not great games.


@Lawlschool

Aye, I "asked" for confirmation of my dubious interpretation of corys blog. I didnt condemn or gave some "final judgement".


@Xenavire

You really are brothers in your religion over there, I ll give you guys that.

1.) I assumed there was an NDA, that wont keep him from reasoning.
And if it is in fact so strict as to not let him give any valuable information...
than thats about it !!!! he cant give valuable information. Obviously its fine for him to make his voice count and say "I cant tell you anything of significance, but I was there at their office and had a real blast and no problem with their progression system". I will than take that as one singular vote of confidence for cryptozoic... great its a good thing to have.

2.) CZE has not yet ASKED us to SHUT OUR MOUTH and just trust them. As long as they dont do that and openly ASK for our oppinion and critique.... I m going to do as they ask and help them make the best of their game... For all I care you can keep rubbing their backs and sucking things, but thats only going to help so much. If you cannot join a discussion because of NDAs or lazyness than dont join it please or limit your input.

3.) Nope I havent had a hands on opportunity, which is exactly why its important for crypto to HEAR this opinion. because 20K backers and the other 980 000 people cory wants to play this game havent had that either. And its kinda important and interesting for their decisionmaking and marketing how things look and feel for the outside.

4.) I m even admitting to my fears or doubts being dubious at best. Thats why I am asking for clarification as well as justification.

5.) so your telling me to try it out when its done and not help or interact until that point?
A really constructive approach.
I almost forgot that CZE proved that they are immortal unfallible gods and we should kick back and relax.



really... I stopped reading and posting on these forums 2 months ago because of 2 reasons.
1.) my studies of business informatics took their toll
2.) the superficial, religios, emotional, biased, unfounded BS that some "core" community people sell as an opinion.

sry if I have bothered anybody
it just took one day back to remind me to play this game and enjoy it, and not try to help via this pityful portal.

bojanglesz
02-13-2014, 04:52 PM
What exactly are you worried about here?
Unlike pvp they made no promises about not changing or removing pve cards.
If a boss deck is too strong/easy they can always adjust it.

Because the leveling system is pretty integral to the entire PvE experience, not exactly something you overhaul completely. Not like nerfing a boss or something. I think that's what he's saying.

mach
02-13-2014, 04:54 PM
What exactly are you worried about here?
Unlike pvp they made no promises about not changing or removing pve cards.
If a boss deck is too strong/easy they can always adjust it.

I'm worried about core game mechanics here, not individual cards.

Let's say you finish building a house and then you discover that there's a problem with the foundation. Can you tear down the house and rebuild the foundation properly? Sure, but it's really expensive to do at that point. You're much better off if you find the problem before you build the house on top of the foundation.

BlackRoger
02-13-2014, 04:59 PM
I'm worried about core game mechanics here, not individual cards.

Let's say you finish building a house and then you discover that there's a problem with the foundation. Can you tear down the house and rebuild the foundation properly? Sure, but it's really expensive to do at that point. You're much better off if you find the problem before you build the house on top of the foundation.

You aren't actually going to tell them how to build their game are you?
Helping them test/adjust balancing is one thing.
Telling them how to make the core mechanics of their game is off charts in my opinion.

Let them make their wetest dream.
If it doesn't sell, I'm sure they will do some thinking and win us over eventually :)

mach
02-13-2014, 05:02 PM
You aren't actually going to tell them how to build their game are you?
Helping them test/adjust balancing is one thing.
Telling them how to make the core mechanics of their game is off charts in my opinion.

Let them make their wetest dream.
If it doesn't sell, I'm sure they will do some thinking and win us over eventually :)

It's not telling them how to make their game, it's advising them and offering feedback.

It's like when they removed all abilities from the chain and removed the prep phase. Based on the community feedback, they revised their core mechanics.

Do you think what the community did in those cases was inappropriate?

BlackRoger
02-13-2014, 05:06 PM
Also what you describe as "I want to get to the endgame" is a biiiig topic in itself.
I ll leave it at:
1.) people only want to get to the endgame so bad because you DONT start there...
2.) instant gratification kills deeper achievements and longevity... its a trend for commercial ripoff, not great games.

I'm sorry you see me that way.
I want to get to the end-game because I want access to all the content, so I can play what I enjoy and have all the kicks and tricks my class is meant to have, as well as do the actually challenging content.
Instead of repeating the who knows how many levels of easy grinding new players have to go through with each and every one of my classes.

I do hope some other people feel the same way.

BlackRoger
02-13-2014, 05:14 PM
It's not telling them how to make their game, it's advising them and offering feedback.

It's like when they removed all abilities from the chain and removed the prep phase. Based on the community feedback, they revised their core mechanics.

Do you think what the community did in those cases was inappropriate?

No, I just think you and I have different opinions on what are core mechanics.
Not everything in the rulebook is a core-mechanic.
The community voiced its opinion on how a semantic of the stack interaction worked, they didn't ask them to completely redo the stack.

While I'm sure our feedback would be usefull, it can wait until after the content is ready.
They refused our feedback on the stack issues before we tried it, they will refuse our feedback on the class system untill we tried it.
And rightly so.

Xenavire
02-13-2014, 05:41 PM
@Xenavire

You really are brothers in your religion over there, I ll give you guys that.

1.) I assumed there was an NDA, that wont keep him from reasoning.
And if it is in fact so strict as to not let him give any valuable information...
than thats about it !!!! he cant give valuable information. Obviously its fine for him to make his voice count and say "I cant tell you anything of significance, but I was there at their office and had a real blast and no problem with their progression system". I will than take that as one singular vote of confidence for cryptozoic... great its a good thing to have.

2.) CZE has not yet ASKED us to SHUT OUR MOUTH and just trust them. As long as they dont do that and openly ASK for our oppinion and critique.... I m going to do as they ask and help them make the best of their game... For all I care you can keep rubbing their backs and sucking things, but thats only going to help so much. If you cannot join a discussion because of NDAs or lazyness than dont join it please or limit your input.

3.) Nope I havent had a hands on opportunity, which is exactly why its important for crypto to HEAR this opinion. because 20K backers and the other 980 000 people cory wants to play this game havent had that either. And its kinda important and interesting for their decisionmaking and marketing how things look and feel for the outside.

4.) I m even admitting to my fears or doubts being dubious at best. Thats why I am asking for clarification as well as justification.

5.) so your telling me to try it out when its done and not help or interact until that point?
A really constructive approach.
I almost forgot that CZE proved that they are immortal unfallible gods and we should kick back and relax.


1) If you assumed there was an NDA, why ask for specifics? Not going to continue this line, but just think about things before you ask.

2) They shouldn't have to ask for a little faith. We chucked money at them, because we liked what we saw. They are building that up as we speak, improving on it. Thats a good reason to trust them, because they are still honouring refunds. And regardless, this is a mere tidbit of information - I am sure its incomplete.

3) OK, the reason it is unavailable for a hands on test is because it is still being built. That means it is going to go through several iterations before being ready for consumers to see it. You are bitching about an early draft as though that is the finished product. Seriously, chill out.

4) Clarification would be nice, but it is unlikely to come any time soon. Before it is released though? Almost certainly. We will get our shot to critique - this is not that time.

5) Yeah, that is exactly what I am telling you. A draft copy/idea, barely explained, and not yet refined or built, and you blow up like you have dynamite up your ass. You just need to chill out and wait for info like the rest of us. We are all ravenous hyenas when it comes to getting new info, and we all have our opinions and critiques about said info, but this is one time where we need to back off for a while. Giving an opinion over something that is incomplete is just going to muddle things up anyway - what can you suggest right now that would be constructive in the long run? I know I have nothing useful to suggest, because the idea is far from complete. I don't know how to refine it at this point, so why bother chipping in?

Just relax, it is not the end of the world, and it is a very short sighted view to think this is the only chance we will have to discuss PVE.

Yoss
02-13-2014, 06:30 PM
What exactly are you worried about here?
Unlike pvp they made no promises about not changing or removing pve cards.
If a boss deck is too strong/easy they can always adjust it.

They advertised 6 classes and 8 races. They gave an example progression for the Warrior. The class/race system is very much CORE to the PVE stuff.

bojanglesz
02-13-2014, 06:49 PM
They advertised 6 classes and 8 races. They gave an example progression for the Warrior. The class/race system is very much CORE to the PVE stuff.

I actually haven't payed that much attention to PVE, but was the KS example of classes/races/etc. vastly different than from Cory's post?

Xenavire
02-13-2014, 06:57 PM
I actually haven't payed that much attention to PVE, but was the KS example of classes/races/etc. vastly different than from Cory's post?

There were some definite changes, most likely iterations on what already existed. Seems like the idea grew, but the core is still mostly the same. I really don't get why people are acting like this is a surprise, or a big deal. The system seems fairly solid to me.

Gwaer
02-13-2014, 08:24 PM
When you ignore someone on the forums, it auto minimizes their text, and you have to click a link to see it. It lets me decide if I'm in a good enough mood to deal with certain people, doesn't stop me from interacting with them if it's an interesting discussion.

I have at many times in many places critiqued CZE. I've suggested a number of changes to things, there was a giant thread about how their stack changes were the antithesis of this game. You can try to paint me as blind follower, but anyone who actually pays attention to the forums knows better. In this instance, even I don't know all the details of how the character progression will go, I know what they have seems like an extremely good approach for the game they are building. I know RPG mechanics are always evolving, and that it's a pretty fast moving area. So my question was, how do you define the RPG of an MMORPG? Where can you draw the line at to say that this system they are designing doesn't fit? I think that's a very interesting discussion to have.

Yoss
02-13-2014, 09:08 PM
I guess I don't know what "evoloved" RPGs you're referring to. Every RPG I can think of has you controlling one or more characters that level up. Sometimes you get to choose a race and/or class (World of Warcraft, Dungeons and Dragons, Star Wars, etc), sometimes it's built into the character (Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy, Castlevania SOTN, etc). Sometimes you can change your class throughout (Final Fantasy Tactics). But the underlying thing is that your character levels up over time, it does not reset each time you enter new content (like the Ranger example in the blog).

So far as I can tell from this blog post, that means that our "character" is now defined as our account, which means that in order to make a new character, one must create a new account. If so, THAT SUCKS! Everything a player might legitimately want to do should be achievable from a single account. In other words, a completionist should be enabled to be so on a single account. That means being able to explore all classes and storylines on a single account.

Rendakor
02-13-2014, 09:59 PM
I'm not sure anything in the blog indicates that our account will be class or race based, and thus there's no reason to make a new account.

Lawlschool
02-13-2014, 10:09 PM
I guess I don't know what "evoloved" RPGs you're referring to. Every RPG I can think of has you controlling one or more characters that level up. Sometimes you get to choose a race and/or class (World of Warcraft, Dungeons and Dragons, Star Wars, etc), sometimes it's built into the character (Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy, Castlevania SOTN, etc). Sometimes you can change your class throughout (Final Fantasy Tactics). But the underlying thing is that your character levels up over time, it does not reset each time you enter new content (like the Ranger example in the blog).

So far as I can tell from this blog post, that means that our "character" is now defined as our account, which means that in order to make a new character, one must create a new account. If so, THAT SUCKS! Everything a player might legitimately want to do should be achievable from a single account. In other words, a completionist should be enabled to be so on a single account. That means being able to explore all classes and storylines on a single account.

Where does it say that you can only have one character per account? Or rather, why do you think your "character" is your account? Sounds like the account leveling is like the SWTOR "Legacy" system, where as it levels you get general perks that apply to all your characters (Mercs / Classes), rather than some branching skill tree. I think you're misreading the post.

Also,


The Class system and leveling in general is a bit different in HEX. (As compared to what? Well there really is nothing like HEX, so I guess it isn’t different, its exactly what a MMO-TCG should be!) HEX needs to accommodate the core TCG component of change; it wouldn’t be to fun to lock in choices and have that limit your deck building or overall experience.

It's irrational to think that Hex would follow traditional RPG leveling, since Hex is a decidedly non-traditional RPG. I'm a big fan of the Might system, since it means I have an incentive to replay classes and choose different skill combinations, as well as having an incentive to try out many different classes. Maybe I don't want to be a ranger for the entire PvE experience, and rather than choosing a different class and starting from the bottom, I can maybe pick up a new class for my next dungeon.

Yoss
02-13-2014, 11:25 PM
I'm not saying what it is, because we simply don't know from the vague descriptions. I'm admittedly speculating on what could be true based on what was revealed. An RPG has a ROLE that you PLAY in the GAME, this is called your Character. That character will grow over time, rarely if ever "unleveling". If you reset your "class"/might/thing every dungeon, then that is not your character, it is just a tool you have access to just like your equipment and cards. If "I can maybe pick up a new class for my next dungeon" then my class is just like a sword or a hammer, just a tool and nothing more. So what is your character? As best I can tell from the update, there is only one other option and that's the account-level XP system. And if your character is your account, then by definition to get another character you have to make another account. This is what I am railing against as a horrible, terrible idea. I hope I'm wrong, and there's some other Character idea they have in mind, like maybe have it bee Keep-level XP with multiple (unlimited?) Keeps per account. Or focus on the Champs as characters and have the Keep be more abstract.

We've discussed a lot of this last year about what level decisions will "matter" at. Will decisions by one Champ affect every other Champ in that Keep? And if only one Keep per account, they are then forcing completionists to play multiple accounts in order to try everything. That's bad.

EDIT:
Here's one of the old discussions:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26401

Parzival
02-13-2014, 11:44 PM
Okay I reread the blog and between the lines, I'm not a fan of the might system.

Lawl there is a flip side to your experimentation argument - there is no emotional attachment, your character goes back to level 1 at the start of every dungeon, you have not had to make meaningful long term decisions.

So they have stepped away from the Lv50 warrior concept we saw in the Kickstarter, don't like it, I want to make meaningful decisions, if I am not happy, I want to roll another warrior and start again and make different decisions this time.

I'm disappointed but have faith that CZE will deliver a good game, just don't call it a deep, complex RPG - because it's not.

mach
02-13-2014, 11:53 PM
I'm not sure anything in the blog indicates that our account will be class or race based, and thus there's no reason to make a new account.

Let's say I have a champion which needs one of the account-level perks (no limit to hand size, maybe) to work well. I then want to create a new champion, which will need a competing account-level perk to work well. Since I can only have 1 of the two, I have no choice but to create an entirely new account.

Gwaer
02-13-2014, 11:56 PM
None of us have any idea how deep or complex it will be. Seriously, It's crazy to say otherwise. We should know a lot more by the time the arena comes out which will be before release. This conversation will be much more useful for everyone then.


Let's say I have a champion which needs one of the account-level perks (no limit to hand size, maybe) to work well. I then want to create a new champion, which will need a competing account-level perk to work well. Since I can only have 1 of the two, I have no choice but to create an entirely new account.

Every step of the way CZE has had you customizing your character based on your deck. Even when the plan was level 50 warrior, when you made the deck you would be able to assign your talents when you made a new deck. At least that was the last thing I heard. Why would the account level perks be any different? What in that announcement says that you're stuck with one particular choice for every deck you make?

Furthermore, the way they were doing account creation, with you being the lord of your keep, and the mercenaries, and champions being hirelings. They've been moving away from the you are playing your champion model, and you are the mastermind behind the scenes. I'm incredibly interested in this approach, and I think we should give it a shot before writing it off entirely. If it doesn't work out, I'll be first in line for changing it, but new stuff has to be different stuff, and I am confident that the standard method for these things in non tcgmmo's is not the way that it should be done. Will this be the right way? I have no idea, but until we at least see some of it in action it's impossible to tell.

FoundInTheFlood
02-14-2014, 12:03 AM
Dust 514 (a completely different game, EGO-Shooter in the Eve-Online universe on the PS3) planned to do an update every 6 months. They finally pulled the game out of beta a year ago, but it still played like a beta. To restore faith in the company they started a monthly release cycle (you guys even have a weekly one) and tried to be very open about where they are heading. They get a lot of flaming from some 30+ year olds that behave like children, but the community as a whole benefits greatly from the "this game will never stop evolving" idea (something that you, Cory, also have as a vision for HEX).

Maybe being more open about which bugs are being squashed and which 10 designs for the card design were in would make the community stick together even more. There WILL be more discussions of course, but that's the price you pay for everyone being involved.

Example of devs discussing things / tests:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=30020&find=unread
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1810049#post1810049 (CPM is a player-voted group that gets deeper inside but has an NDA and can directly discuss with the DEVs)

I also like the "jump to first DEV POST" button.


Maybe some of CCP's ideas will inspire you.

mach
02-14-2014, 12:07 AM
Every step of the way CZE has had you customizing your character based on your deck. Even when the plan was level 50 warrior, when you made the deck you would be able to assign your talents when you made a new deck. At least that was the last thing I heard. Why would the account level perks be any different? What in that announcement says that you're stuck with one particular choice for every deck you make?

From the blog:


With that in mind we have two systems. One leveling system is meta-based and affects your entire account. This system will supply perks to your account that you can pick and choose and use with each champion. Stuff like additional gold drops in dungeons, no limit to hand size, or an extra beginning game re-draw.

You choose your perk, which applies to your account and all champions in it.

Gwaer
02-14-2014, 12:10 AM
"You can pick and choose and use with each champion", seems to track with exactly what I just said.

mach
02-14-2014, 12:17 AM
"You can pick and choose and use with each champion", seems to track with exactly what I just said.

I can see the language being slightly ambiguous, but I don't think your interpretation is correct. "Supply perks to your account" implies that you make a single choice at each level and it applies to everything in your account. If it worked as you think, the perks would be applied to characters individually, not to your account as a whole.

Gwaer
02-14-2014, 12:19 AM
Seems to me that it opens up the choice on your account, and you can make whatever choice is appropriate to the deck you're building, and or the dungeon you're running with that deck. So you have a level X account, you have so many tiers unlocked, and you make the choice for those options every time you build a deck. It's possible that isn't correct. But I don't see anything in the article that says otherwise, and that was the last system that I heard they were using when they were talking about champion talents.

As far as I know they were never applied to a character, even when you had character talents, they were applied to decks that you built using that champion.

mydragoon
02-14-2014, 12:31 AM
before i start, a bit of background...

backed via KS. alpha came out, got super excited, checked my emails every minute or so... got my email, installed. played a few times. stopped. continue to read about updates, more updates and patches... but sadly, i never bothered with the alpha. i think we still have got more patches and updates before we'll even hit beta. then decided to check the forum today... posted a bit, read what others are saying, etc... in a way, i've got renewed interest in this game.

my Q is kinda simple and also posted on KS about a week back. i'm not upset with the delays (compared to what was planned during the KS campaign). I am just curious to know... when can we expect BETA and when is the official release of this game to public? no, i won't hold your reply against you (if Hex gets delayed again), but it'll still be nice to at least know when we can expect certain things... :D
just quoting myself and adding a bit more (and then hoping to hear from Cory).

as it is... even on KS, we're seeing more and more MMO TCG card games... even one related to "Unsung Story" KS project. some are expected to also launch this year. while i am not asking that Hex be the first out of the door, i really dun expect Hex to be like the last (or sth like that). i mean, when Hex campaign on KS first got on, this idea is like very new...

so, again... not really pressing for an exact date... but at least a revised estimate as to when we can expect BETA *and* the OFFICIAL release. :) Thanks.

saffamike
02-14-2014, 03:36 AM
You aren't going to get a date. I'd rather Hex be the best than the first out the door for the sake of it.

The game is coming along nicely and will be worth the wait.

BlackRoger
02-14-2014, 04:20 AM
I guess I don't know what "evoloved" RPGs you're referring to. Every RPG I can think of has you controlling one or more characters that level up

Examples to "evolved" RPGs:
Later final fantasy games, where all the classes in your group would level up wether you used them or not, so that you could switch to a different one and continue to play the story line with a different class/character.
Ok, so characters do have permanent progression (And so does your account/decks), but the switch class whenever you feel like it without restarting the game proved good for the series.

Half minute Hero: The first game I played where your levels reset every dungeon
Very good game considering it is an indie title with crappy graphics and plot.
Also has lots of replayability for achievements and loot.
Heard Sorcery Saga has a similar system but haven't played it.

FTL: another good indie game.
The game is like a random-generated dungeon.
You pick the ship you wonna use, then go through it leveling the crew and getting new parts, then starting from scratch the next time you play it.

add here: every other rogue-like ever created.

The whole levels do not save isn't a new thing in RPGs, its kinda where we started with arcade games.
Not many take that approach any more, but so far those who did made some great games.
Besides, 90% of my play-time in WoW was at max-level where the only progression I had was getting loot, and I prefered it by far from the leveling, so as far as I'm conserned I'll be having more progression here.

NaryaDL0re
02-14-2014, 04:41 AM
I ll just quickly add that gwaer makes one compelling argument,
which is to wait for a more appropriate time to discuss the than better known pros/cons.

However I still have one big problem with that.

Cory chose to give us additional information.
By all means I want him to continue doing so! I m really grateful.

However... released information EXISTS to be interpreted and guessed at.
It is released for the PURPOSE of discussion and speculation... because there
is no other possible reason to release it. Its surely not just meant to make us randomly happy,
when the content at hand isnt finished,polished,100% decided, etc.


So I ask gwaer, it may be that we need better information to have a better discussion.
If so, than cory should either give us OTHER information which lends itself to better discussion,
or MORE information about the system he hinted at.

All I did was "ask" for more information, since he let parts of the cat out of the bag already.


And again. He did not say "these are some cool hints, please dont talk about them, trust us".
So I assume he wants this discussion to happen.

Lawlschool
02-14-2014, 07:21 AM
Seems to me that it opens up the choice on your account, and you can make whatever choice is appropriate to the deck you're building, and or the dungeon you're running with that deck. So you have a level X account, you have so many tiers unlocked, and you make the choice for those options every time you build a deck. It's possible that isn't correct. But I don't see anything in the article that says otherwise, and that was the last system that I heard they were using when they were talking about champion talents.

As far as I know they were never applied to a character, even when you had character talents, they were applied to decks that you built using that champion.

This is how I interpreted it as well. Something like the SWTOR Legacy system, or more like CoD "Perks." At X keep level you have Y perks unlocked, but you can only choose to have a few of them apply at a time. So for one dungeon / deck / champ you might want the "+5Health," "+1 Hand," and "10% Bonus Gold" perks, while for another you might want "+2 Charge Points," "Start with 2 Battle Hoppers," and "10% Bonus EXP."

I think this (if it is like this) + the Might system is exciting because of how much flexibility and customization you can have. Just ran an advanced dungeon as an Orc Warrior? Try it again as a Shin'Hare Ranger! I'd hate to have to be stuck with a single character the whole game, or have to reroll from step 1 if halfway through the third dungeon I realized I'd screwed up the stat distribution / skill tree. Plus, if you're suck with one character, that means you're pretty much stuck with one deck theme, which seems to be the antithesis of the whole deck building creativity aspect of a TCG. Sure you might not get as "attached" to your character, but whether or not that is a bad thing is just personal preference.

ossuary
02-14-2014, 07:32 AM
Hmm... the more I think about it, the more I realize that a "traditional" RPG method of leveling up a character (or several, in the case of a long-lasting MMO) doesn't mesh as well as I originally thought with the concept of a TCG, and the highly adaptable nature of building multiple decks with multiple themes / strengths. As such, the idea we were originally pitched on the warrior class tree actually DOESN'T work as well as I was originally thinking, in terms of the MMO side of things.

At first, I was trying to think my way around it in terms of the leveling, by imagining you could unlock ACCESS to all the skills on that level, but you can only have one "assigned" at a time from each tier... so you're still getting the level progression, but you can swap those skills out on a per deck basis (though you'd be locked in for the entirety of a dungeon encounter, just like with your deck contents). I still think this would be better overall, and would "feel" a lot more like a traditional MMORPG, but I'm willing to give the idea of the Might progression a try.

Maybe it was too much work trying to create that many possible skills to progress through, and having a clean progression of difficulty of the content to match it (and making it so the same dungeon is challenging regardless of your level!). With the account-level perks, you're not completely distanced from the idea of progress, but they are more for convenience or quality of life than the power of a character, whereas the Might system lets you build up strength in whatever class you've entered the dungeon as throughout the encounters - but still come back later and play the dungeon a different way without having to level your character up from scratch if your current build sucks.

The Might system also makes it so high level players can't breeze through the early parts of a dungeon with no effort, because the skills they have access to are based on their progression through the current dungeon, not the game as a whole. So instead of blasting through everything in the beginning and then hitting a wall of difficulty, it's a natural progression through the encounters. I like this, it could work. I want to see where they're going with it.

Like I said... I'm still a little nervous, and I think a traditional leveling system that just has you choose which perks to use from the ones you've unlocked for each deck would be better overall and more in-line with what people tend to expect from an MMO, but I'm not going to cry wolf and dismiss CZE's ideas out of hand... their ideas have been pretty intriguing so far, and I'm willing to give them a shot before I form a final opinion.

I still reserve the right to bitch about it later if they screw it up, naturally. :cool:

mach
02-14-2014, 07:44 AM
This is how I interpreted it as well. Something like the SWTOR Legacy system, or more like CoD "Perks." At X keep level you have Y perks unlocked, but you can only choose to have a few of them apply at a time. So for one dungeon / deck / champ you might want the "+5Health," "+1 Hand," and "10% Bonus Gold" perks, while for another you might want "+2 Charge Points," "Start with 2 Battle Hoppers," and "10% Bonus EXP."


Isn't that basically just having a bunch of stuff at might level 1?

Rycajo
02-14-2014, 08:22 AM
Gwaer does have a good point - more information is needed before judgement is passed. However, it is also good for the community to voice opinions about what they believe they would like - that way CZE can judge our response to the idea.

When I looked at the warrior tree, I liked the character progression and options available. I liked the idea that the character skills would be chosen per deck, not as a binding choice for that character forever. I would hope this is how the account level/meta progression works.

Now if the account progression is simply +gold or other reward based perk, and nothing that would change how I will build my deck, then I don't really care about that kind of progression. But from Cory's brief spoiler it seems some gameplay changing choices will be available (no hand limit could be pretty powerful for some builds). And yes mach, this Meta progression does sound like "basically just having a bunch of stuff at might level 1", but that is great. Even better if a few of the meta choices are influenced by the character being played. So an Orc hero might be able to pick "+1 attack for all orcs" instead of getting the extra mulligan. So each dungeon run you would start out with bonuses from your meta level, but you would also develop your charge power and passives throughout the dungeon.

The combination of the two systems sounds great. However, I can sympathize with Yoss and others who fear new accounts will be required for maximum replay value.

Refugee
02-14-2014, 09:46 AM
Honest question: Would the people who want more attachment to a single character be happier if the account level perks were just divided and pasted onto a tree with an orc's, human's, shin hare's picture next to it? So for example you have enough exp to "level up", you go to your "champions tab", navigate to the champion you want to level (let's say the orc), select the available perk from the orc's champion tree (let's say the first creature you play each game gains rage 1), and now you have access to that perk in pve for any deck. Is that any better/worse or is it about the fact that to make a fresh orc to level you'd have to make a new account (keeping in mind the likelihood of a respec button for just rearranging perks or whatever you want to call them).

Hatts
02-14-2014, 09:51 AM
I love what I've seen so far from the PvE update from Cory's blog. The account wide perks sound like great bonuses that can help with any deck.

The in dungeon might system for each class is a great boon for replay value. Not only can I run the dungeon as a each class (and mercenary) I'm no longer stuck with a particular build of a class. I can tailor my progression through the might tree to the exact deck I've brought for the dungeon.

There is still plenty of overall PvE progression from my card and equipment collection. I can't wait to play it...

Yoss
02-14-2014, 10:25 AM
The rogue-like games are single-session RPGs. They follow the "rules" I stated before, but they limit their time horizon to single sessions. And by the way, your character is typically DEAD at the end, so it's obvious that you're starting a new one next time.

Post 153 is nice. It is more or less my viewpoint, but I'm a bit more negative on the reset-per-dungeon idea. If I take a few weeks to bend my mind around the new concept, maybe I'll come to like it. Maybe. I can see how this model might still fit the goal I stated earlier, but that goal remains regardless of the system they end up with. (To restate it: A completionist player should be able to, with infinite time, eventually achieve and experience everything the game can possibly offer all from a single login account.)

My ignorant preference of the moment, which I'd bet they've also already thought of, would be to have you level up as "Lord of a Keep" being your character. This would just be a generic "I am level 10" with no particular bonuses or powers except that every Champ and Merc in the Keep would inherit that level. Then, when you pull up your Champ, you can assign skills on that Champ's progression up to your Keep level (chageable each time you play). Thus, you are simultaneously levelling all classes and mercs at once. They could also have skills/perks at Keep level that are more generic like +1 card opening hand that that kind of thing, but you should be allowed to turn them off when you want to have the newbie feel again (same for Champ levels, you should be allowed to just unspec things and not use what you've unlocked).

At the end of the day, they'll make a fun system, and as long as the bolded goal is achieved, I'll probably be happy. I just don't want to be driven to multi-account in order to see all the content.

ossuary
02-14-2014, 10:50 AM
Post 153 is nice.

Stop complimenting me, it's disconcerting. ;)

Rendakor
02-14-2014, 10:54 AM
Not all rogue-likes are single session games (see: DCSS).

Tinuvas
02-14-2014, 12:27 PM
...Everything a player might legitimately want to do should be achievable from a single account.
Yes and yes. Good guys, bad guys, whatever. With KS rewards especially, I want one entry portal. Once inside however, I don't mind if you play all kinds of games with stuff (leveling your Ardent Keep differently than your Underworld(?) keep etc.).


Hmm... <Blah blah good stuff good stuff blah blah>

I still reserve the right to bitch about it later if they screw it up, naturally. :cool:
Poetry man, poetry!


...
And again. He did not say "these are some cool hints, please dont talk about them, trust us".
So I assume he wants this discussion to happen.
Actually, I suggest that much of the information dropped from CZE is specifically for us to maul/tear apart/digest loudly etc.
It's a messy process, but hey, I love sausage.


Stop complimenting me, it's disconcerting. ;)
sorry. ;) If the shoe fits and all that.

Yoss
02-14-2014, 12:36 PM
sorry. ;) If the shoe fits and all that.

Pretty sure he was only talking to me, since he and I have had some vociferous ... discussions ... in other threads. :D

RobHaven
02-14-2014, 01:01 PM
So far as I can tell from this blog post, that means that our "character" is now defined as our account, which means that in order to make a new character, one must create a new account. If so, THAT SUCKS! Everything a player might legitimately want to do should be achievable from a single account. In other words, a completionist should be enabled to be so on a single account. That means being able to explore all classes and storylines on a single account.

A completionist player should be able to, with infinite time, eventually achieve and experience everything the game can possibly offer all from a single login account.
...
At the end of the day, they'll make a fun system, and as long as the bolded goal is achieved, I'll probably be happy. I just don't want to be driven to multi-account in order to see all the content.
I happen to love the idea of being identified by my keep/account. To me, it's more identifiable to the community as a whole this way, and there's a lot to be said for the value of that.
Also, I wanted to voice my opposition to the "want all the things" stance you've taken. With regards to choice, there's a fine line between punishing and meaningful; if they can stay on the right side of that line, I'll happily trade away my chance to have everything in exchange for having things that mean more.
Being able to choose everything at some point devalues the choices you have to make along the way. To use a crude example, think about the game show cliche of the three doors: If you knew that you'd eventually be able to see what's behind all three doors, you wouldn't agonize over picking just one.


Cory chose to give us additional information. By all means I want him to continue doing so! I m really grateful. However... released information EXISTS to be interpreted and guessed at. It is released for the PURPOSE of discussion and speculation... because there is no other possible reason to release it. Its surely not just meant to make us randomly happy, when the content at hand isnt finished,polished,100% decided, etc.
In my purely speculative opinion, this is exactly why companies try to keep things to themselves. We make demands for information - "Let us in on your thinking! Show us your development process!" - then they do, and they get crucified for it. It's a game IN DEVELOPMENT. They NEED to be able to change things as they go; pinning them down to the exact details as first reported is only going to hamstring their team.
There are plenty of reasons for them to release information, and please the consumer base is absolutely on that list. I'm sure there's a lot they release so they can measure our opinions/responses, but there's plenty more we don't understand enough to have very many valid points on. Presumptuous as it might be, I firmly believe that once we go from requesting to demanding, grateful to entitled, constructive to destructive...this is when the team wants nothing more than to take a poop in a box and send it to our home address.

Personally, I don't want a box full of poop. I'd rather appreciate what information I can gather, wait to experience a system before demanding anything of it, and make suggestions when and where it's appropriate.

Yoss
02-14-2014, 01:17 PM
I happen to love the idea of being identified by my keep/account. To me, it's more identifiable to the community as a whole this way, and there's a lot to be said for the value of that.

Also, I wanted to voice my opposition to the "want all the things" stance you've taken. With regards to choice, there's a fine line between punishing and meaningful; if they can stay on the right side of that line, I'll happily trade away my chance to have everything in exchange for having things that mean more.

Being able to choose everything at some point devalues the choices you have to make along the way. To use a crude example, think about the game show cliche of the three doors: If you knew that you'd eventually be able to see what's behind all three doors, you wouldn't agonize over picking just one.

The "choices matter" desire you are voicing is valid. I do not think it has to be at odds with what I've posted in bold though. I believe we can have both.

Please note the "with infinite time" qualifier on what you quoted. Since none of us actually has infinite time, the choices that consume our time matter. Making one choice will consume a certain amount of that finite resource. In order to reverse the choice, you'll have to go back and pay another bit of time. In that sense, it would actually be BETTER if one were forced to actually level up every class/race one wanted to play. Then, your choice MATTERS because of the time you spend on each one.

Having the OPTION to do everything from a single account is still incredibly important, and it does not have to conflict with a "choices matter" mentality.

Gwaer
02-14-2014, 02:20 PM
That seems exactly counter to what rob is saying. With or without words in all caps. I personally think I should be able to do anything with one account too. But I'm not going to say that my stance is the same as someone who is clearly different. We'll get a lot farther if we approach the situation with honest discussion.

RobHaven
02-14-2014, 02:31 PM
To be completely honest, I want it both ways (so I can't really lose!). On one hand, I want to do and collect and have and buy and sell everything. On the other, I want that terrible knot in my stomach from knowing that once I elect to see what's behind Door #1, I can never, ever go back and undo that choice. I will forever have to live with that decision.

I find decisions like that to be terrifying...and that's why I find them exciting. It's why I spend 20 minutes deciding on a race for my Elder Scrolls character - I can't ever change it; it's why I spend 20 minutes picking my major in college - changing my mind means starting from scratch; and it's why I spend 20 minutes deciding whether or not to punch my former-Marine-MP, current-Camden-NJ-cop brother in the face - there is a VERY good chance I deeply regret my decision down the road. But without the chance for regret, there is a limit on how much enjoyment I can get out of making a choice that actually works for me.

No risk, no reward.

Yoss
02-14-2014, 02:42 PM
Excellent use of ad hominem, Gwaer.


That seems exactly counter to what rob is saying.
Assertion. One expects argument to follow, unless you hang your hat on the word "seems" in which case it is just your opinion with relevance only to the extent that you represent how a generic reader of my post would react.


With or without words in all caps.
Personal attack. Implying that the use of caps is in some way bad, when in fact it is nothing other than emphasis with no relevance to the content of the argument.


I personally think I should be able to do anything with one account too.
Statement of opinion in support of One Player One Account, but not touching on the contrast with Choices Matter. This seems (there's that word again) to be the only useful part of the post.


But I'm not going to say that my stance is the same as someone who is clearly different.
Another personal attack, coupled with elevating yourself. Implying that my post was disingenuous. Use of the word "clearly" does not constitute proof of anything, by the way. Since I am NOT disingenuous, it is NOT "clearly different" to me, otherwise I wouldn't have made the post the way I did.


We'll get a lot farther if we approach the situation with honest discussion.
A third personal attack. Implying that I am dishonest in my discussion.

And then we reach the end of your "argument". We have, in sum, an assertion followed by three insults and an opinion. Well done, sir.

EDIT:
I'd be happy to debate particular points, if you actually take the time to respond to what I posted rather than just hurl insults. For example, maybe you want to poke at "time is a cost" in some way. We can then debate whatever it is you wish to assert against that premise.

Yoss
02-14-2014, 02:43 PM
To be completely honest, I want it both ways (so I can't really lose!). On one hand, I want to do and collect and have and buy and sell everything. On the other, I want that terrible knot in my stomach from knowing that once I elect to see what's behind Door #1, I can never, ever go back and undo that choice. I will forever have to live with that decision.

I find decisions like that to be terrifying...and that's why I find them exciting. It's why I spend 20 minutes deciding on a race for my Elder Scrolls character - I can't ever change it; it's why I spend 20 minutes picking my major in college - changing my mind means starting from scratch; and it's why I spend 20 minutes deciding whether or not to punch my former-Marine-MP, current-Camden-NJ-cop brother in the face - there is a VERY good chance I deeply regret my decision down the road. But without the chance for regret, there is a limit on how much enjoyment I can get out of making a choice that actually works for me.

No risk, no reward.

So, the threat of lost time has no sting for you? It does for me. Time is a precious commodity.

Gwaer
02-14-2014, 02:50 PM
The assertion was to go back and reread what he said. It was the exact opposite of what you said, the use of caps was unnecessary, and a bit silly, but I didn't expect you to take that personally. It's a bit insulting to everyone reading IMO. Of course you think the part that I agree with you on is the only useful part of the post. That's pretty much par for the course.

The final statement was most definitely not an insult. If we approach the topic honestly, which you did not, saying what you said was congruent with what he said, that is the height of dishonesty. I think you need to step back and stop taking things so personally.


Edit:
He didn't say that things should cost more to unlock, he said the painful part was that it would never unlock, adding a cost to it to get it, removes that worry. I feel exactly as he does, I spend hours agonizing over what race or class I will play in the elder scrolls games as well. I feel where he is coming from and I understand that desire.

I also would prefer to be able to play both sides ardent and underworld in hex on the same account. I'm torn on the issue, and am very interested in hearing your side. But trying to twist your side to be his side doesn't help progress the discussion. In this case they are two competing philosophical ways to enjoy the game. Neither is wrong, neither is right. I lean more towards being able to do everything with a single account as the choice that feels better in the context of Hex. I could be persuaded in either direction, though.

MoikPEI
02-14-2014, 03:33 PM
I can't necro. Seems relevant though.
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=28884

Tinuvas
02-14-2014, 03:37 PM
Pretty sure he was only talking to me, since he and I have had some vociferous ... discussions ... in other threads. :D

I knew that would come out wrong. I knew he was talking just to you, I was just...ahhh poop. Never mind.


...I also would prefer to be able to play both sides ardent and underworld in hex on the same account. I'm torn on the issue...

While in theory an infinite time to everything is opposite of an 'I can't have everything' mentality, the practicality of it doesn't work out as such. To use an extreme example: if it takes you 2000 hours to reach the point where you can choose Doors 1,2, or 3, then effectively you have removed the option for a redo for 99% of your population and they will treat the decision as if was a once-in-a-lifetime choice. The longer the road to reach the decision, the more pressure is put on the decision. Yet in theory, it's an 'infinite time to everything' concept.

I can easily see a system that creates choices that cannot be duplicated per character, with whatever limits that go along with that. I too want that gut clenching moment when I realize that there is no turning back (for this character). The more time required to reach those choices, the more likely that people will be to be stressed by the choice, which oddly enough is what we want...to a point. We will have choices that matter, yet accounts that have the ability to go wherever whenever. It truly will be a balancing act for CZE, and that is what we will pay them for...in the f2p part of their game...right.

Xenavire
02-14-2014, 03:40 PM
Yoss, you might be reading a little too far into things here. I agree that the caps were not needed, and I don't think Gwaer was trying to attack you.

As for the matter at hand, being able to experience everything in a single account is important. But the choices do make more impact if they stick. Some choices suck if they stick (talent points in skill tree based character progressions) because you get locked into something that might change based on the meta (thanks to nerfs and buffs). Other choices do matter (like choosing a race) but you shouldn't be excluded from trying other characters or builds.

Now this idea is interesting, and doesn't sound bad to play. I personally want to try it before making a real judgement - I would especially like the chance to play multiple classes, so if this idea would exclude that, I would be upset. I don't believe it is going to work that way, so I am quite happy to wait and see.

But this conversation should be kept as civil as possible. This is a good thread that has good info coming in - wouldn't want it to get closed.

Chocmaw
02-14-2014, 05:04 PM
Furthermore, the way they were doing account creation, with you being the lord of your keep, and the mercenaries, and champions being hirelings. They've been moving away from the you are playing your champion model, and you are the mastermind behind the scenes.

:cool: I want!



At first, I was trying to think my way around it in terms of the leveling, by imagining you could unlock ACCESS to all the skills on that level, but you can only have one "assigned" at a time from each tier... so you're still getting the level progression, but you can swap those skills out on a per deck basis (though you'd be locked in for the entirety of a dungeon encounter, just like with your deck contents).

+1


A completionist player should be able to, with infinite time, eventually achieve and experience everything the game can possibly offer all from a single login account.

Totally agree

Gwaer
02-14-2014, 05:15 PM
Psychologically speaking though, it is the opposite. Saying you can never change this choice, or gain the bonus not chosen is entirely different from saying you can do this with a million hours invested. The fact that it can be done removes a lot of the pressure to making the right choice, even if it would take you years to do otherwise. Also, that seems like a place where a normal f2p game would let you spend 5 bucks and open up the other options, which I especially don't like.

I do in some ways really like the pressure of that decision in games like skyrim, morrowind, etc. Also, in many MMO's since you can just create a character on another server in an extreme case. I just don't think it's a great fit for Hex, but I could be wrong.

MoikPEI
02-14-2014, 06:04 PM
On the subject here, since it seems to have boiled down to something I can understand: The Banner Saga. Its fans are completely content to replay the whole game over and over again in order to do the different routes. It only allows one save. You can't have it every way at once.

Self-counterpoint; I want to be able to gain access to all things on one account, because I like having a full roster.

Yoss
02-14-2014, 08:46 PM
While in theory an infinite time to everything is opposite of an 'I can't have everything' mentality, the practicality of it doesn't work out as such. To use an extreme example: if it takes you 2000 hours to reach the point where you can choose Doors 1,2, or 3, then effectively you have removed the option for a redo for 99% of your population and they will treat the decision as if was a once-in-a-lifetime choice. The longer the road to reach the decision, the more pressure is put on the decision. Yet in theory, it's an 'infinite time to everything' concept.

I can easily see a system that creates choices that cannot be duplicated per character, with whatever limits that go along with that. I too want that gut clenching moment when I realize that there is no turning back (for this character). The more time required to reach those choices, the more likely that people will be to be stressed by the choice, which oddly enough is what we want...to a point. We will have choices that matter, yet accounts that have the ability to go wherever whenever. It truly will be a balancing act for CZE, and that is what we will pay them for...in the f2p part of their game...right.

I'm glad at least one person could understand what I was saying. Thank you.

Roy_G
02-15-2014, 08:41 AM
It's not an rpg i the character is leveled in a dungeon and than unleveled.It becomes a card or a tool to complete
dungeon and doesn't get any emotional investment or sense of progression.

Plus mercenaries will be affected greatly by it as they become coherent with all of their powers with the effect on
the decks as they only have 4 levels/

RobHaven
02-15-2014, 09:23 AM
I'm glad at least one person could understand what I was saying. Thank you.
I have no problems understanding what you're saying. I'm not sure why you thought I - or anyone, really - would have. What it boils down to, though, is that possible does not equal impossible. And that's what Gwaer was saying in response to what you were saying and in support of what I was saying (which - I believe - came in response to what both you were saying and what Mach was saying).
Seeing as everyone said the things needing saying, we should be able to move on. Possible with time is not the same as not possible, but it is (arguably) effectively the same for most people.

I'm pretty sure I came into this thread wanting to compare my interpretation of their system to the League of Legends system. I kind of let that get away from me.
- overall account level opens up options for trees
- you can have multiple trees
- runes are equipment
- champion level resets each match

Oh yeah, also: If I had used an analogy involving the doors of the Gauntlet in American Gladiators (instead of the generic gameshow doors), would that have been understood? I wanted it so bad, but I was afraid of losing people on it.

ossuary
02-15-2014, 09:37 AM
Hey man, sometimes you burst through that door and Laser is waiting for you, and he hands you your pancreas and shows you exactly how much you suck as a person. But sometimes, if you're lucky, you get Malibu instead... and then, oh man, it's smooth sailing right through that Gauntlet.

RobHaven
02-15-2014, 09:41 AM
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaahahahahahahaha
so true
so good

ossuary
02-15-2014, 10:01 AM
Seriously though, it's true. Especially in Human Canonball. Even Adamle was all, "Well the contender will be swinging against Malibu, so it's basically a free 5 points for him."

Yoss
02-15-2014, 10:39 AM
Possible with time is not the same as not possible, but it is (arguably) effectively the same for most people.
Arguably the same, and that's exactly what I was arguing. :)

All they have to do is turn up the time cost high enough to the point where the majority of players cannot affort to pay the cost. At that point you have almost no disinction at all between "not possible" and "possible with more time than you can afford to pay".

Gwaer
02-15-2014, 10:44 AM
That's not how the human brain works at all. An absolute impossibility becoming an improbability is a hugely different situation. Also how would you turn time constraints up that high in the first place with regard hex? Either you can run underworld or you can't. What other choices are we discussing?

Lawlschool
02-15-2014, 10:52 AM
I'm pretty sure I came into this thread wanting to compare my interpretation of their system to the League of Legends system. I kind of let that get away from me.
- overall account level opens up options for trees
- you can have multiple trees
- runes are equipment
- champion level resets each match


I like this analogy, seems pretty apt. It'd be weird if your Champs kept their levels after playing a round in LoL, but there's still the account leveling for a sense of progression and coherency.

GrinningBuddha
02-15-2014, 11:02 AM
I've been trying to follow this thread but it's making my brain hurt. Can someone point out where CZE has stated recently that our keep will not be able to house both Ardent and Underworld characters? Or where it says that we can't have multiple heros to achieve every perk and/or task in the game?

RobHaven
02-15-2014, 11:56 AM
I've been trying to follow this thread but it's making my brain hurt. Can someone point out where CZE has stated recently that our keep will not be able to house both Ardent and Underworld characters? Or where it says that we can't have multiple heros to achieve every perk and/or task in the game?
Let me summarize the thread for you:
- People wanted to ask Cory questions, and he said, "Cool. Let's do that."
- Then he made this blog (http://coryhudsonjones.tumblr.com/post/76449580127/blog-post-number-2). This is where he described the new leveling system.
- People went nuts because they feel (without having played the PvE at all) they're being cheated out of something.
- People decried the lack of PvE in Beta.
- Debates raged over what was the best leveling system for Hex.
- Ossuary encouraged forum posters who may end up in American Gladiators to pray that they're playing against Malibu. No one disputed how very, very true this was.

That pretty much catches you up to this point.

Xenavire
02-15-2014, 12:05 PM
So American gladiators is still a thing? Last time I heard about it was in the 90's.

Lawlschool
02-15-2014, 12:34 PM
So American gladiators is still a thing? Last time I heard about it was in the 90's.

I think there was a "reboot" a few years back.

Xenavire
02-15-2014, 12:38 PM
I think there was a "reboot" a few years back.

Neat. I don't get to see it here, but it seems so '90's retro' it might be worth checking out on Youtube.

GrinningBuddha
02-15-2014, 12:41 PM
Let me summarize the thread for you:
- People wanted to ask Cory questions, and he said, "Cool. Let's do that."
- Then he made this blog (http://coryhudsonjones.tumblr.com/post/76449580127/blog-post-number-2). This is where he described the new leveling system.
- People went nuts because they feel (without having played the PvE at all) they're being cheated out of something.
- People decried the lack of PvE in Beta.
- Debates raged over what was the best leveling system for Hex.
- Ossuary encouraged forum posters who may end up in American Gladiators to pray that they're playing against Malibu. No one disputed how very, very true this was.

That pretty much catches you up to this point.

Ok, so my initial impression that people were arguing about things that haven't been confirmed in any way was correct then? I totally agree that we should be able to accomplish anything and everything we want with a single account but I fail to see where that's ever been suggested by CZE that it isn't possible.

ossuary
02-15-2014, 09:43 PM
Neat. I don't get to see it here, but it seems so '90's retro' it might be worth checking out on Youtube.

As an added bonus, the reboot "starred" Hulk Hogan as the host for awhile.

Honestly, the UK version from earlier in the 2000's was actually decent. The new US reboot was terrible (not good terrible like the original, just regular terrible), but good for a few laughs.

Yoss
02-16-2014, 02:48 PM
Ok, so my initial impression that people were arguing about things that haven't been confirmed in any way was correct then? I totally agree that we should be able to accomplish anything and everything we want with a single account but I fail to see where that's ever been suggested by CZE that it isn't possible.

We're working off previous words from CZE about the Keep structure. They've waffled on whether to allow both Ardent and Underworld on a single account, but have generally seemed to lean towards only allowing one faction per account. If this ends up being reality, there are some (like me) that will be very sad.

If they come out and say something like "you will be able to accomplish anything and everything you want with a single account, given you spend enough time" then I'll be quite happy to let them figure out the details. However, some of the things they've said seem to imply that that will not be true. For example, if your account levels up, then restarting the PVE campaign with a fresh start might mean having to start a new account. If you're switching to Ardent from Underworld this might be particularly annoying, as you're going to be seeing that side of the plot for the first time and it may not be as engaging if you just breeze through it with your pre-leveled account.

AstaSyneri
02-17-2014, 03:26 AM
Since this to me appears to be a (partially degenerated) thread about asking questions, I'll do that (maybe that gets us back on track?):

Cory, I am one of those players who have backed Hex TCG because they love the idea of playing out a MMORPG by means of a well-done TCG. Being mentally challenged by dungeons to build the best decks I can and play them the best way I can, being rewarded by loot and experience that permanently improves my chosen characters plus the chance of doing certain challenges cooperatively with friends made me back extensively. Now I increasingly get the vibe, that's Hex TCG is about playing a competitive Magic Online clone after all (a much improved one, of course). I very much dislike PvP in TCGs, as it seems to bring out the worst in some people (or just attracts the wrong kind of people who I'd rather not spend my precious free time with). Where do I stand as a Dungeon Crawler and Raid Leader? From where development is right now, how can I expect this investment to pay off (in terms of fun, rather than monetarily)?

mudkip
02-17-2014, 07:27 AM
Since this to me appears to be a (partially degenerated) thread about asking questions, I'll do that (maybe that gets us back on track?):

Cory, I am one of those players who have backed Hex TCG because they love the idea of playing out a MMORPG by means of a well-done TCG. Being mentally challenged by dungeons to build the best decks I can and play them the best way I can, being rewarded by loot and experience that permanently improves my chosen characters plus the chance of doing certain challenges cooperatively with friends made me back extensively. Now I increasingly get the vibe, that's Hex TCG is about playing a competitive Magic Online clone after all (a much improved one, of course). I very much dislike PvP in TCGs, as it seems to bring out the worst in some people (or just attracts the wrong kind of people who I'd rather not spend my precious free time with). Where do I stand as a Dungeon Crawler and Raid Leader? From where development is right now, how can I expect this investment to pay off (in terms of fun, rather than monetarily)?

I'm not sure if that's meant to be a rhetoric question, but Cory answered the state of PvE in his last blog post: http://coryhudsonjones.tumblr.com/post/76449580127/blog-post-number-2


Question #9

When will we get a PVE update?

I am sorry about the lack of updates on PVE. As I mentioned earlier, we have been focused on core systems, and PVE is coming after that. We do have engineers currently working on PVE, but it’s farther out than PVP (clearly).

Tinuvas
02-17-2014, 08:05 AM
That's not how the human brain works at all. An absolute impossibility becoming an improbability is a hugely different situation. Also how would you turn time constraints up that high in the first place with regard hex? Either you can run underworld or you can't. What other choices are we discussing?

I wonder what the actual difference on the human mind a choice that effectively eliminates a repeat vs blatantly disallowing it has. I suppose that you can put some choices near infinitely high in cost in terms of time and yet people will think differently than if you just auto cut them off.

AstaSyneri
02-17-2014, 08:43 AM
I'm not sure if that's meant to be a rhetoric question, but Cory answered the state of PvE in his last blog post: http://coryhudsonjones.tumblr.com/post/76449580127/blog-post-number-2

Not, not really a rhetoric question. It is one to underline the apparent fact, that the PvE part of the game is in danger of "getting under the wheels a bit", especially when compared to the original scope of the game. Right now the information is a bit confusing (to me, possibly to other players who are mainly looking forward to PvE, as are most of the players in our Guild - we are built on the premise that we want to do the PvE), and:


I expect that we will be launching PVE features relatively quickly after the Open PVP BETA

That in my eyes is at least one qualifier too many: "expect", "relatively quickly", "after the Open PVP BETA". You could read that as "We are going to release the money-making PvP and then at some point, if and when we get to it, we'll do PvE, too".

I know I am exaggerating and I do understand that CZE needs money to develop what they have in mind, but PvP is not the game I backed or want. Therefore i'd like to see a bit more (read that as "a lot more" on PvE) than Cory has revealed so far, especially from the perspective of the two "big tiers" mentioned above.

The tradeable Mercs and the different level system are already two significant deviations from course and I am not sure yet I like where we are headed.

Josua
02-17-2014, 09:15 AM
The tradeable Mercs and the different level system are already two significant deviations from course and I am not sure yet I like where we are headed.

Like most of us that are also interested in the PVE/RPG side of this game as well as the PVP, I am quite curious about this. I feel/hope that CZE is still going to remain focused on PVE as they nail down more of the core TCG system (which is why it makes sense to me that the PVP side is both finished and deployed before PVE), but I would like to know more about the current decisions with PVE. As far as I'm concerned, PVP can come out a decent amount of time before PVE so long as PVE is still a priority (and I believe it will be). Take as long as you need in order to get it done right, but let us know more about the decisions as you go.

For instance, regarding the Mercs/Leveling system, it would be great to know more details about it. As we've seen in this thread, it's something that a lot of people are curious about. For myself personally, I would like to know how many battles on average it will take to max out a Merc's MIGHT. Does the experience required vary for each merc? Will there be a significant amount of grind needed? Is this going to make replaying a dungeon for "that one drop" overly tiresome? How will this affect MIGHT in regards to raids?

I am happy with the way that CZE has been handling things, and I'm sure they are doing their best to deliver on the overall best product to satisfy as many backers as possible... I would just like a little extra info when available.

Xenavire
02-17-2014, 09:59 AM
Tradable mercs where demanded by many people interested in PvE. Demanded. CZE realised that it wasn't just because people didn't like it, but because it would be healthier for the game.

As for the backers who backed for PvE - I personally backed whatever I could afford, and intend to enjoy every aspect of the game. But it sounds like the PvE only players are wishing for the impossible.

Look at what has been implemented in PvP. 1) 1v1 games. 2) 1vAI games. 3) Reconnect. 4) Server patches for stability. 5) Basic card framework. 6) Collection management. 7) Champions and champion abilities.

I could go on. Now what do all these things have in common? They are all needed for the framework of PvE. Without these things, PvE couldn't exist.

These things also happen to be vital for PvP, and are able to be released, used, and tested for bugs. In fact, the more bugs squashed in the PvP aspects, the less bugs PvE will inherit.

And guess what? Most of the planned features also are required or compliment PvE. 1) Auction house. 2) Trading. 3) Double backs. 4) Currencies.

We can't just be blind here, PvP and PvE are linked in many ways, and PvP simply has to come first. Later, the shoe will be in the other foot (PvP will be waiting for 2v2 etc, while PvE is happily playing raids with 1v3).

So just be patient. I can't wait to play a coyotle healer or orc warrior, or vennen rogue. I am anxious to see the glory of PvE, but I am realistic. I never expected anything in alpha, and almost nothing in beta. By the sounds of it, we may end up with more than was planned.

Yoss
02-17-2014, 10:26 AM
Xen is absolutely right, and I'm all in favor of PVP release ahead of PVE so that CZE can start making money to feed their PVE development. I fully grasp that the foundational systems need to be in place before PVE can be released. Perhaps it is just because the current focus is on core systems that we feel like PVE is neglected, even if it is not. Along those lines, I have these questions for CZE.

Questions for Cory:

How many CZE people are on the PVE team and how many are on the PVP team?

We've heard that the PVP team is expected to produce 3 or 4 sets per year. What is the expectation you've placed on the PVE team? Will you measure them by dungeons-per-year (including raids) or do you have some other metric in mind?

Can we expect an ongoing fully-staffed MMO development, constantly striving to produce content as fast as it's consumed?

I would hope to hear roughly equal numbers on the PVE team versus PVP, working roughly equal hours, indicating that PVE is not going to be "second fiddle" in Hex. I know the PVP is important, but I'm taking that side of it as a given from a TCG company. PVE is the innovation that got me and my friends onto the KS. We thought we backed a game that is fully TCG and also fully MMO, not a TCG that happens to have a little PVE as bait to fuel booster sales. My small group already has MTG available for PVP, but MTG does not offer the extra MMO piece to give community and extra replay value to the decks. PVP dueling is great and we'll definitely expect to do that in Hex, but we can already do that with MTG.

Josua
02-17-2014, 11:29 AM
I agree with both of you; PVP should come first. I think Cory was saying that it was always the plan to focus on it first since it's completely necessary for PVE, but that they would wait for both PVP and PVE to be a bit more ready before proceeding to Beta. Personally, I'm glad that they decided not to wait though.

My issue has nothing to do with that, nor does it have to do with being patient. In fact, I don't have much of an issue at all... currently. My only thought/wish is that, as things are developed with PVE, that the concepts will be shared with the community. If there is something that the vast majority finds unacceptable, it would be great to know about it before it is fully implemented so that it can be discussed. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think that the majority should get something simply because they want it. I'm simply saying that the collective mind can help look at things from various aspects. In the end, we all just want an amazing game, and I believe that CZE is going to deliver.

I suppose my main question for Cory would be: Will we be updated with specific aspects of PVE gameplay as it's being developed (e.g. How quickly will MIGHT level? Will it vary for each level/character? Will it fully reset when replaying a dungeon for specific drops? How will it affect raids?), or will the focus be a more generalized view of development?

Xenavire
02-17-2014, 11:40 AM
I agree with both of you; PVP should come first. I think Cory was saying that it was always the plan to focus on it first since it's completely necessary for PVE, but that they would wait for both PVP and PVE to be a bit more ready before proceeding to Beta. Personally, I'm glad that they decided not to wait though.

My issue has nothing to do with that, nor does it have to do with being patient. In fact, I don't have much of an issue at all... currently. My only thought/wish is that, as things are developed with PVE, that the concepts will be shared with the community. If there is something that the vast majority finds unacceptable, it would be great to know about it before it is fully implemented so that it can be discussed. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think that the majority should get something simply because they want it. I'm simply saying that the collective mind can help look at things from various aspects. In the end, we all just want an amazing game, and I believe that CZE is going to deliver.

I suppose my main question for Cory would be: Will we be updated with specific aspects of PVE gameplay as it's being developed (e.g. How quickly will MIGHT level? Will it vary for each level/character? Will it fully reset when replaying a dungeon for specific drops? How will it affect raids?), or will the focus be a more generalized view of development?

Good questions. Hopefully those are ones that are able to be answered right now.

But those questions have got me thinking... Is might meant to increase the replay value of certain dungeons? And will the dungeons physically change based on decisions related to might? (Say you are in a dungeon with necromancers and you are playing a holy paladin that can choose between demon slaying or undead slaying. Would choosing undead slaying make it significantly easier, or even change the dungeon to have less undead and more troops of other kinds?)

Having a highly replayable PvE campaign seems like a good goal, and I guess I am curious about how that will be achieved.

RobHaven
02-18-2014, 08:04 AM
How many CZE people are on the PVE team and how many are on the PVP team?
(If you're asking about this in the context of a fully released game, then disregard the following paragraph.)
Answering this question is bound to cause a massive boost in torch-and-pitchfork carriers. I don't see the need to have this answered. I know a lot of us PAID for the "free" side of the game, and we [rightfully] want to get ours...but having them tell us the amount of people-power each side is getting will only cause trouble. Especially now when the core mechanics are being developed. Once everything is in place and it comes down to developing content/sets, then it makes a bit more sense to demand equality; as it stands right now, I would HOPE for inequality.


We've heard that the PVP team is expected to produce 3 or 4 sets per year. What is the expectation you've placed on the PVE team? Will you measure them by dungeons-per-year (including raids) or do you have some other metric in mind?
Can we expect an ongoing fully-staffed MMO development, constantly striving to produce content as fast as it's consumed?
1A) I hate the amount of sets released in a year. To me, it feels like too much. How can you possibly keep up innovative and creative production at that rate? Maybe I'm just too unfamiliar with the development process to know any better, but I thought there were WAY too many sh**ty cards/sets in Magic to justify their cycle. I'd rather have one incredible block per 12 to 16 months. I imagine, though, that this is mostly a financial thing.
1B) I don't like the idea of a PvE team being forced to create X dungeons. If the number's too high, they're going to cut corners. I'd much rather have a modest number of incredible play experiences over high number of subpar or somewhat interesting dungeons.
2) I hope they only keep up with consumption rates of the average user. WoW consumption rates were ignant because people were so hooked on being there first/early, and they didn't take the time to fully enjoy the play experience of the instance. I get that some people get a rush from that race, but it makes more sense for the vast majority of players to dictate acceptable production rates.

Xenavire
02-18-2014, 09:39 AM
They need terrible cards now and then, and they cannot possibly wait more than 4 months between sets, or players will get bored and quit.

But creativity? They have tons of it, and when it runs out a little they can get new blood into the team, or employ reprints. MTG suffers because of years of power creep and reusing the same ideas.

Plus CZE has an edge - digital only effects. What can be done on paper is limited to what paper can do.

Most people are psyched up for 3-4 sets a month, and I can't blame them. Even if it is 3 new sets and one reprint set a year, that is still great for the metagame and the health of the game in general.

Also, an important distinction I want to make here - WoW dungeons are worthless once you progress past them. Hex PvP sets will be current for around 2 years a piece, being refreshed and enhanced by every other set it is combined with. Then you have legacy, where every set is important. There is no 'consumption' of sets, only increased experience

RobHaven
02-18-2014, 12:12 PM
My last post was pretty poorly written. Point 2 of section 2 was responding exclusively to the "creation of Hex PvE content" thing Yoss had said.

Regarding Magic power creep, though, I don't have complete faith that we won't see it at an equal level here. I obviously have enough faith in this product that I backed it and have stayed active in the game and on the forums, but it just seems like a very real threat.

Gwaer
02-18-2014, 01:01 PM
Power creep is honestly a community fanservice problem. You just have to take a quick glance at the development feedback forum to see it in action, people want all cards in all sets to always be the best card. Some sets should have different power levels than others in both directions, you never want to have the most powerful or least powerful block you will ever print, but just change it up periodically.

What do you think happens when magic prints a set that isn't more powerful than the last one? Their sales go down, what happens when they print a stronger set? Sales go up. It's a consumer problem. I very much doubt CZE will be able to take a stand and release less powerful sets for quite some time. Especially since magic can barely stomach doing it.

funktion
02-18-2014, 02:27 PM
Purposefully making a weaker / underpowered set has some novelty for me I think... but I think that novelty would wear off quickly once it is put in the context of a standard format etc. Nobody would end up playing any of the cards in constructed and its sales would obviously drop due to that and the exact stuff you mentioned gwaer.

Brussky
02-18-2014, 07:46 PM
Regarding Magic power creep, though, I don't have complete faith that we won't see it at an equal level here. I obviously have enough faith in this product that I backed it and have stayed active in the game and on the forums, but it just seems like a very real threat.

I mean, you have to have some sort of power progression in new sets. No one is going to be interested in a new set if it doesn't offer something different or an improvement for their deck. There are a lot of avenues you can take with digital, but there's only so much "different but equal" that can happen before you have to bump the power level of the cards up a tad. That's a large part of what makes new sets interesting.

Magic suffers from the problem of having used up half of their design space too early; the spells from the first half of the game's history were completely absurd. Since then, they've had to bump up creature power rapidly to catch up or risk blanking one of the major axes of interaction. Wizards is now nearly out of design space to print cards that are novel, do something relevant and are powerful enough to get people excited. You then have the problem of making all previous creatures obsolete; how many 3/2 fliers for 1 can you possibly print before people lose interest?

Xenavire
02-18-2014, 08:21 PM
As long as each of those 3/2 fliers has something different about it, they are interesting enough to the standard player. Some may suck, some may be awesome.

The thing is, in a block system, they should be able to keep the power level of cards fairly even, creeping very slowly. But the last few years of Magic (since the last big rules change, and also the time Planeswalkers were introduced) it has gotten especially silly. They shouldn't have had to do that (yeah, design space is a problem) but there is some real creep in there. Just take the first Ravnica block - that was reasonably balanced, I would almost compare it to how Hex is feeling now (minus the multicolour cards though). Then Time Sprial hit, it was better in some areas, but didn't feel like a big hit. Then just after that, mythics are introduced, along with planeswalkers, and things started to get wonky.

Of course, there were a few broken sets before that, and several underpowered ones later, but I stopped enjoying Magic around the time mythics and planeswalkers hit, because things were just getting a little out of hand. I am sure it got worse at times, but it just lost the spark for me. So I think they have really suffered a lot of power creep over the years, and lately stopped trying to fix it.

I mean, Myrrodin and affinity were crazy at the time, but they scaled it back for Kamigawa and Ravnica. It just seems like they stopped caring though, despite those sets being fairly popular.


But I have gone a little off topic here - I think CZE can keep that power creep in check, especially after seeing what MTG has done over the years. Especially block by block - they can reverse power creep by dimming the power slowly over the course of a block. Sure, those strong cards will always exist, but if they get out of hand there are always bans.

Remember - Magic went and did the power 9, and learned a hard lesson. To this day, there has not been a card of equal power printed. CZE have already dodged that bullet, I think they can dodge a lot more.

...Btw, anyone know a cure for 'typing diarrhea'?

ossuary
02-19-2014, 05:26 AM
keyboardpectate?

Kroan
02-19-2014, 06:48 AM
Remember - Magic went and did the power 9, and learned a hard lesson. To this day, there has not been a card of equal power printed. CZE have already dodged that bullet, I think they can dodge a lot more. Yeaaah.... no they didn't learn their lesson :P JTMS!

Xenavire
02-19-2014, 07:53 AM
I keep hearing about Jace. But is it so good that is wins in legacy? Because the power 9 are still OP.

Maybe a link to which version of Jace everyone is talking about? I have gone looking, and the only dangerous one seems to be the one that lowers the power of opponents creatures for a turn. That one also milled crazy amounts right?

Yoss
02-19-2014, 09:59 AM
Jace, the Mind Sculptor:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373316

Runs about $100 last I checked. It has won pro tours in Legacy and was a monster in Standard when it was legal. I'd say P9 are still more powerful. The main problem is the 0-cost ability to draw the top 3 cards of your deck and put two back, every single turn.

Xenavire
02-19-2014, 10:20 AM
Jace, the Mind Sculptor:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373316

Runs about $100 last I checked. It has won pro tours in Legacy and was a monster in Standard when it was legal. I'd say P9 are still more powerful. The main problem is the 0-cost ability to draw the top 3 cards of your deck and put two back, every single turn.

Huh, basically a free sensei's divining top, except better. Yeah, I get why thats banned. Still nowhere near power 9, but not terrible either. But I hated the concept of planeswalkers from the start, in my eyes they should have never made this card.

Still, not many MTG cards have been banned over the years, but that hasn't stopped power creep. Some of the newer sets almost remind me of unglued/unhinged.

ossuary
02-19-2014, 10:48 AM
Wasn't there a card in unglued / unhinged that actually ended up with its exact att/def and ability on a real card a few years later? I remember thinking it was hilarious at the time.

Xenavire
02-19-2014, 11:25 AM
Wasn't there a card in unglued / unhinged that actually ended up with its exact att/def and ability on a real card a few years later? I remember thinking it was hilarious at the time.

Hmm, I could use a good laugh. If someone could linky, I would be very appreciative.

ossuary
02-19-2014, 01:06 PM
I thought there was another one, because this one isn't so much funny as amusing...

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ug/2.jpg ... http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fut/3.jpg

Anyone want to chip in here? Isn't there a creature that came straight from an un- set and became a normal, legal card a few years later?

Xenavire
02-19-2014, 01:17 PM
I thought there was another one, because this one isn't so much funny as amusing...

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ug/2.jpg ... http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fut/3.jpg

Anyone want to chip in here? Isn't there a creature that came straight from an un- set and became a normal, legal card a few years later?

Oh, thats quite amusing. I dont think they are particularly strong, but I would have totally run the cheese, with some sleeved versions of the Barren glory for backup, just for the fun of it. I swear the guys at my local store would have let me play the cheese in a tourney as long as I owned the Barren glories - and they would have had the best laugh about it if I even made it through a single round with it out.

Makizushi
02-19-2014, 02:03 PM
I think the nature of software development precludes most questions involving the word 'when' from getting meaningful answers. That's just the way it is.

So rather than asking 'When will beta start' I think instead I will ask 'What major components of the game do you wish to have functional and in place before beta starts?'

And thus you have put your finger on the essence of "agile" development :)

The teams work constantly churning out new iterations of the product, adding new features and functions ("user stories") with each new iteration. The goal is to constantly have a functioning product, which will grow in functionality over time.

hammer
02-19-2014, 04:02 PM
Anyone want to chip in here? Isn't there a creature that came straight from an un- set and became a normal, legal card a few years later?

Not quite but the mechanism is the same and was influenced by an un-set

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ug/63.jpg ... http://magiccards.info/scans/en/bok/32.jpg

NaryaDL0re
02-20-2014, 04:19 PM
I cant express enough how much better this game looks since the cardframes changed oO...

Xenavire
02-20-2014, 04:23 PM
I cant express enough how much better this game looks since the cardframes changed oO...

After seeing the frames, I can't wait for the cool game boards. Just drooling in anticipation.

stiii
02-20-2014, 04:34 PM
Jace, the Mind Sculptor:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373316

Runs about $100 last I checked. It has won pro tours in Legacy and was a monster in Standard when it was legal. I'd say P9 are still more powerful. The main problem is the 0-cost ability to draw the top 3 cards of your deck and put two back, every single turn.

I wish people would stop talking about magic if they don't know what they are talking about.

Jace has never won pro tours in legacy.

Yoss
02-20-2014, 07:15 PM
UW Miracles never won?

#1 GP Paris 2014, has 3 copies of JTMS:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=242

stiii
02-21-2014, 11:56 AM
UW Miracles never won?

#1 GP Paris 2014, has 3 copies of JTMS:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=242

That would be a GP not a pro tour.

mach
02-21-2014, 12:38 PM
That would be a GP not a pro tour.

There aren't any Pro Tours in Legacy.

Yoss
02-21-2014, 02:19 PM
I'm not going to quibble over names of tournaments. The point is that top-tier decks are running JTMS and winning. "UW Miracles" is the typical deck category for those who want to look up specific card lists.

Can we end this rabbit hole now? I can't even remember why JTMS came up in the first place.

stiii
02-21-2014, 04:06 PM
There aren't any Pro Tours in Legacy.

I mean that was the point. There is also only one 3/2 one cost flyer ever printed too.