PDA

View Full Version : Hex Grand Auction LIVE: Where the cool stuff gets sold



Yoss
02-05-2014, 02:38 PM
As we were debating the finer points of marketplace design (AKA auction house design), I came up with this idea. What if every so often CZE held a Hex Grand Auction LIVE, where players could come both in person and online to bid on a bunch of pre-screened, presumably expensive in-game items? These would be items that could have maybe been sold on the in-game auction house, but would maybe need a larger bit of advertising to really make the sale at a good price. I'm thinking at minimum CZE could do this at HexCon each year, but maybe also GenCon and other major events too.

This would be the ideal place to highlight all the nifty double-back stuff that CZE has come up with as a new feature for a TCG. How cool would it be to watch someone pay $1000 (in Plat) for some Legendary, Foil, Alternate Art, Extended Art, World Champion 2014 Hex card?

Gwaer
02-05-2014, 02:53 PM
I imagined something like this as already in the works for hex cons of the future. I wouldn't even expect it to be things the community necessarily brings to the table. Double back rare cards should sell quite well with just the standard AH. It wouldn't be necessary for any cards, but would be potentially entertaining.

Thrawn
02-05-2014, 02:55 PM
Watching some farmer with a bunch of bots bid on a valuable item so they can resell it for $ on eBay.

Pass.

ossuary
02-05-2014, 03:43 PM
Don't be such a stick in the mud. It's a great idea.

Also, I see a possible future interaction with things like Child's Play. Imagine 5 or 6 years from now, when the game is really booming, CZE puts up one of their reclaimed kickstarter Grand Tier accounts for auction, all proceeds to Child's Play. I would love to see that bidding war. :)

Tinuvas
02-06-2014, 09:41 AM
Increased market for the rare cards. Hype for the game. Increased player interaction. Large audience for the big announcements. Still looking for a downside. :)

MoikPEI
02-06-2014, 11:29 AM
Same boat as Tinuvas. I can't spot an exploit. What kind of eligibility requirements would we be looking at here? Say I have a Living Totem that I've won 100 Pre-Contructed On-Demand Tournaments with it in-deck, and that instance of the card getting the killing blow five times. Maybe three hundred people in all the game have similar cards, but no one else has posted one to the AH. Eligible for Grand Auction? Still eligible if there are any up on the AH? If they have been traded before but have not been posted in the month prior to the Grand Auction?

Gwaer
02-06-2014, 11:52 AM
If it were me I'd make it invite only, or force people to submit their items and only pick the most interesting things. You don't want people intentionally holding onto items for a once a year event. The idea that it is necessary at all is based on Yoss doing an eBay search and seeing that some very expensive things(black lotus) are sitting there BIN and he assumes those things don't well. Not that they are fake, of miss-priced, or any of a ton of more reasonable expectations. As probably one of the only people on this forum that has sold a black lotus, I can say that assertion is entirely wrong. But it's still a neat idea as long as it doesn't interfere with the market too much.

ossuary
02-06-2014, 11:54 AM
Probably for something like this I would say people who want to get an item entered in the auction submit it to CZE for review, and they make the decision on what type of card merits the grand stage. They would choose the final auction list and manage the transactions from there. An automated system probably couldn't handle this - not at first, certainly! :)

ossuary
02-06-2014, 11:55 AM
As probably one of the only people on this forum that has sold a black lotus, I can say that assertion is entirely wrong. But it's still a neat idea as long as it doesn't interfere with the market too much.

I've sold an alpha black lotus, but it was before ebay or really the internet at large (it was '95 or '96)... so that probably doesn't count for your purposes. :)

Yoss
02-06-2014, 01:08 PM
Same boat as Tinuvas. I can't spot an exploit. What kind of eligibility requirements would we be looking at here? Say I have a Living Totem that I've won 100 Pre-Contructed On-Demand Tournaments with it in-deck, and that instance of the card getting the killing blow five times. Maybe three hundred people in all the game have similar cards, but no one else has posted one to the AH. Eligible for Grand Auction? Still eligible if there are any up on the AH? If they have been traded before but have not been posted in the month prior to the Grand Auction?

I mentioned "pre-screened" in the OP thinking that people would make submissions to CZE for consideration to be included as one of the Grand Auction items. CZE then would take the top 10, 20, 100, or whatever. CZE could also, as ossuary mentioned, add in some of their own things, like free entry to the next HexCon or an all-expenses-paid trip to visit CZE Game Night (of course you ARE paying, just through the auction).

We're in brainstorm mode here, so just throw out ideas. Sometimes it takes a hundred "bad" ideas to find the one that really works. Unfortunately, the internet is a very harsh place when it comes to posting "bad" ideas.

RobHaven
02-06-2014, 01:57 PM
If you want it to draw a lot of attention, keep it to a [relatively] low number of items. Having a 100 item auction would be boring, not all that special, and wouldn't live up to the hype surrounding the event. Also something to consider: Even if "lots" aren't something people can sell in the AH normally, they could be for such an event. Don't want to break up your First Hex World Champ deck for individual selling? Sell it as a full deck in the Grand Auction.

Tinuvas
02-06-2014, 02:15 PM
I like that. Also, by keeping the numbers of lots/items low, you won't really affect the overall market while still generating hype etc.

ossuary
02-06-2014, 02:26 PM
Yes, it should be a relatively small number of items. 10-25, tops. And I like the idea of having an entire grand championship deck up for auction, too... own a piece of history, etc. I could see that being a big hype kind of item.

And again, I'm going to push the idea of a charity component (especially Child's Play). That kind of thing is great for everyone. There are a lot of nerds in the world with generous hearts and deep pockets. :)

Yoss
02-06-2014, 02:35 PM
And again, I'm going to push the idea of a charity component (especially Child's Play). That kind of thing is great for everyone. There are a lot of nerds in the world with generous hearts and deep pockets. :)

By default this would only apply to things sold by CZE. Things sold by individuals would obviously benefit the individual (unless they specifically donate it ahead of time).

Also, I imagine that the Grand Auction would use the on-client AH so that anyone and everyone can jump in, even those who don't even know they're bidding in the Grand Auction. (Maybe it's a sweet Replicator's Gambit and they just happen to find it during the event.) The in-person event would have to figure out logistics of how to enter the in-person bids into the client. Maybe a CZE employee enters each bid as it's announced? The end-of-auction should not be by timer and would instead be controlled from that same CZE employee at the in-person event. They could potentially even put the GA items up on the client ahead of time and then just finish the auction live.

Still just brainstorming....

Tinuvas
02-06-2014, 03:25 PM
Charity components would just add awesomeness to the deal.

Turtlewing
02-06-2014, 03:28 PM
I like the Idea in general.

My only nitpick is I'm not sure about the "in person" part. Usually an "in person" auction is moderated by an auctioneer, which would get awkward to integrate with a digital auction.

Obviously a room full of people could participate in a digital auction on mobile devices, but that rises the question of why gather in one room to do it. As a con event they could hand out participation rewards like a deck sleeve or something to people who go in person and well, being at a con should help.

Yoss
02-06-2014, 06:12 PM
I like the Idea in general.

My only nitpick is I'm not sure about the "in person" part. Usually an "in person" auction is moderated by an auctioneer, which would get awkward to integrate with a digital auction.

Obviously a room full of people could participate in a digital auction on mobile devices, but that rises the question of why gather in one room to do it. As a con event they could hand out participation rewards like a deck sleeve or something to people who go in person and well, being at a con should help.

I think it could work. With a big display showing the current auction, all the in-person audience will know what the price is. The announcer can call out the price and ask for bids. If anyone bids, then the controller (sitting at client) enters the bid amount, which updates the screen. When bids come in from online, the screen will likewise update.

RobHaven
02-07-2014, 07:26 AM
Obviously a room full of people could participate in a digital auction on mobile devices, but that rises the question of why gather in one room to do it. As a con event they could hand out participation rewards like a deck sleeve or something to people who go in person and well, being at a con should help.
We'll be playing an online-only game, but as many of us as can afford it will be going to Hexcon. We'll probably play a lot of games there. I've also been talking to the owner of a local card store about doing Hex nights at his store. There's an increased social element when you're all in one place, even if everyone is using a device as their primary means of digital input.

Turtlewing
02-07-2014, 10:51 AM
I think it could work. With a big display showing the current auction, all the in-person audience will know what the price is. The announcer can call out the price and ask for bids. If anyone bids, then the controller (sitting at client) enters the bid amount, which updates the screen. When bids come in from online, the screen will likewise update.

The point is that in person auctions usually work very differently from digital ones.

In an in-person auction, if the bidding slows the auctioneer declares a winner. In a digital auction the lot typically remains open until a fixed time expires.

If you use the first model, the potential exits for an auction to continue for a very long time provided the bids keep coming (which is more likely when you have the larger audience of "everyone who's online"), you also can't easily auction multiple things simultaneously. It's possible for the online bids to come in faster than the auctioneer can call them out (though that's probably not too big an issue). Of grater concern would be race conditions (someone in person bids X and someone online bids X, at approximately the same time would tend to favor the online bidder as the in person bidder needs to speak their bid then wait for someone else to enter it, whereas the online bidder juts enters it directly.

If you take the later model, you'll get bid "sniping" and the latency on a person seeing and entering an in-person bid will basicly mean no one in the room has a very good chance to actually win.

The cleanest solution would probably be to have an online auction but make a show of having an "auction room" with screens showing the current bids, and a number of terminals available from which you can bid.

Yoss
02-07-2014, 11:07 AM
The point is that in person auctions usually work very differently from digital ones.

In an in-person auction, if the bidding slows the auctioneer declares a winner. In a digital auction the lot typically remains open until a fixed time expires.

If you use the first model, the potential exits for an auction to continue for a very long time provided the bids keep coming (which is more likely when you have the larger audience of "everyone who's online"), you also can't easily auction multiple things simultaneously. It's possible for the online bids to come in faster than the auctioneer can call them out (though that's probably not too big an issue). Of grater concern would be race conditions (someone in person bids X and someone online bids X, at approximately the same time would tend to favor the online bidder as the in person bidder needs to speak their bid then wait for someone else to enter it, whereas the online bidder juts enters it directly.

If you take the later model, you'll get bid "sniping" and the latency on a person seeing and entering an in-person bid will basicly mean no one in the room has a very good chance to actually win.

The cleanest solution would probably be to have an online auction but make a show of having an "auction room" with screens showing the current bids, and a number of terminals available from which you can bid.

It would need to be untimed, controlled by the auctioneer/controller.

Q: wouldn't it just go on forever?
A: The bidding wouldn't go on forever, since obviously the price can't go to infinity. However, even getting to very large bids need not take very long, unless they failed to implement bid scaling (bid increments increase as price increases).

Q: Wouldn't the online bids go faster than the auctioneer can handle?
A: As you say, this wouldn't be a big deal. The auctioneer just needs to have a good sense of humor about it.

Q: What about race conditions?
A: As you say, the online person would have the advantage by default, but that only really matters in cases where both parties have the same price limit in mind AND the in-person guy was bidding incrementally rather than just shouting out his max bid directly. Otherwise, the one with the higher limit will win.


Having a room full of computers to bid on could work too, but seems like it would be less exciting. In the case of Grand Actions, whose primary purpose is advertising and excitement, I think I'd prefer to accept the inefficiencies in favor of having the excitement.

Xtopher
02-07-2014, 11:10 AM
Since CZE will know precisely what's available, perhaps they should approach the players that have potentially hype-inducing items. It would save them having to go through 1000++ lots to see what's best.

Turtlewing
02-07-2014, 11:40 AM
It would need to be untimed, controlled by the auctioneer/controller.

Q: wouldn't it just go on forever?
A: The bidding wouldn't go on forever, since obviously the price can't go to infinity. However, even getting to very large bids need not take very long, unless they failed to implement bid scaling (bid increments increase as price increases).

Q: Wouldn't the online bids go faster than the auctioneer can handle?
A: As you say, this wouldn't be a big deal. The auctioneer just needs to have a good sense of humor about it.

Q: What about race conditions?
A: As you say, the online person would have the advantage by default, but that only really matters in cases where both parties have the same price limit in mind AND the in-person guy was bidding incrementally rather than just shouting out his max bid directly. Otherwise, the one with the higher limit will win.


Having a room full of computers to bid on could work too, but seems like it would be less exciting. In the case of Grand Actions, whose primary purpose is advertising and excitement, I think I'd prefer to accept the inefficiencies in favor of having the excitement.


I think my view would be better described as something like an art show than a traditional auction. The idea would be that the in person event is basicly a party and while you're there look at all these cool things you can bid on.

RobHaven
02-07-2014, 11:49 AM
You don't want a room full of computers because it could detract from the excitement - I can see that, and you're probably right.

As a possible solution, what if everyone held Jeopardy buzzers? Each buzzer tied to your Keep name, you buzz when you want to bid. Another thing I've seen done before is a keypad where you punch in a number and send it. I was thinking Jeopardy buzzer, though, because it'd be easier to draw attention to yourself (alla "standard" live auction) if you're just licking your buzzer thing.

Anyway, it could be a reasonable means to combat the timing issue of live peeps versus digital peeps.

Yoss
02-07-2014, 01:23 PM
it'd be easier to draw attention to yourself if you're just licking your buzzer thing.

Best typo ever? :p

I do like the idea though (without the typo).

Rycajo
02-07-2014, 01:36 PM
Perhaps online participants would simply be hitting a "bid" button instead of inputting a bid amount (putting the competitors on equal footing as far as pricing increases). Situated in the Auctioneers view would be a display indicating when an online competitor made a bid and would point out the online bid (as the auctioneer would for any new bid) and then move up to the next bid - just as if the online bidder was represented by an attending robot that was holding up a bid sign.

RobHaven
02-07-2014, 02:16 PM
Best typo ever? :p

I do like the idea though (without the typo).
Wow...that's embarrassing. But, I mean - if that's how we need to register a bid, then so be it.

EDIT: You'll also noticed I said, "it'd be easier to draw attention to yourself...if you're just licking your buzzer thing."
For what it's worth, it was entirely accurate.

Yoss
02-07-2014, 02:45 PM
You'll also noticed I said, "it'd be easier to draw attention to yourself...if you're just licking your buzzer thing."
For what it's worth, it was entirely accurate.

Yeah, that's why I quoted the whole line. It was beautiful. Gave me a good chuckle.

New forum meme: "just licking my/his/your buzzer"
Use for when someone's trying to draw attention to himself. :D

Gwaer
02-07-2014, 04:26 PM
I didn't realize it was a type. JUst figured people in that part of the world did different things with buzzers than over here.

RobHaven
02-07-2014, 06:11 PM
In New Jersey, we do everything our own way.

Gwaer
02-07-2014, 07:12 PM
Chris Christie? Is that you?

ossuary
02-07-2014, 10:05 PM
It all depends on what you mean by "buzzer." I've seen the videos. Some of those women REALLLLLLY like their buzzers.