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View Full Version : So maybe you can hire Blizzard to make your client?



Kitsune
02-17-2014, 02:38 PM
They have an easier time of things since they aren't building an interface for a particularly complex ruleset, but even taking that into account they've catapulted ahead of Hex's client in usability and stability. You might want to take a line from me taking a line from Steve Jobs taking a line from Picasso: "Good artists copy, great artists steal." Find out what they did to build their client and "borrow" liberally from that technology to use on yours.

Xenavire
02-17-2014, 03:08 PM
No. Just no. They have massive amounts of resources to dedicate to HS, that does not mean that they are any better than CZE. And as you said, their framework is far simpler, has a lot less options, and is less ambitious. CZE is building the client with compatability in mind for all future endeavours (example, adding an auction house, PvE, and far, far more.)

Blizzard would just make it look flashy without actually dealing with the issues (case and point, WoW - issues have been around for years, yet they only care about pushing graphics lately. The new content is boring and not worth completing after the first time, because its really just there for looks.)

I am frankly sick of Blizzards crap (they do not listen to their fans anymore.) I wouldn't want them near this project. Not to mention they are competing companies.

Besides, Hex already has it's own unique style, is far more compelling, and has taken great leaps in stability over the last few months. For a first outing in game building, CZE are blowing Blizzard out of the water in about a hundred ways. And they still take time to talk to the fans.

So take your fanboyism (and being an Ex-fanboy of blizz, I know exactly what it is like) and just keep it to yourself. CZE can handle it and will do a far better job than Blizzard will.

Yoss
02-17-2014, 03:12 PM
Poaching some of the better programmers from Blizz might work though. Blizz management might have gone away from its roots, but there are still good people working there. ;)

Xenavire
02-17-2014, 03:17 PM
Poaching some of the better programmers from Blizz might work though. Blizz management might have gone away from its roots, but there are still good people working there. ;)

The dev teams might have good members, but none of the ones that speak with the WoW community, thats for sure. I can't remember the last positive interaction I have seen from them in about two years.

But yeah, poaching talent is different from hiring the company - in that context, steal away, as long as they will care about the project. We need quality, not quantity right now.

hex_colin
02-17-2014, 03:31 PM
Poaching some of the better programmers from Blizz might work though. Blizz management might have gone away from its roots, but there are still good people working there. ;)

Gwaer and I talked about this when he was in SoCal recently. My sense is that Blizzard is able to overpay for Unity talent. CZE is probably not in that position... yet. My hope is that monetized Beta = lots of $$$ = larger team, whilst maintaining the high level of talent.

GrinningBuddha
02-17-2014, 03:33 PM
Hey Kitsune, how about you build us a house, I'll build us a shed and we'll see whose project is stable and usable first. Then, when you've finally finished your house, let's see which one people want to live in.

Given your sig, I assume this is just a troll, but if not then you need to understand how exponentially more complex Hex is than Hearthstone to program properly from the ground up.

Xenavire
02-17-2014, 03:33 PM
Well Colin, you could always become a loan shark...

(Kidding!)

Kroan
02-17-2014, 03:44 PM
No. Just no. They have massive amounts of resources to dedicate to HS, that does not mean that they are any better than CZE. To be fair, Hearthstone was done with a 15-man team. The whole point of HS was to see if a small team could build something fun in a relative short timeframe (for Blizzard anyway)

Xenavire
02-17-2014, 03:58 PM
To be fair, Hearthstone was done with a 15-man team. The whole point of HS was to see if a small team could build something fun in a relative short timeframe (for Blizzard anyway)

It started like that sure. But they will have added resources after the first positive reactions. I saw that interview, it was implied that they came up with the core gameplay etc with that small team and then expanded when it showed promise.

I would be very surprised if only 15 people managed to build Hearthstone from the ground up in only a couple of years. I mean look at that new Moba - they have been teasing that for years. Diablo 3 took almost a decade. Hearthstone might be a lot easier, but it would need more than 15 people to be this polished this quickly.

hex_colin
02-17-2014, 04:15 PM
To be fair, Hearthstone was done with a 15-man team. The whole point of HS was to see if a small team could build something fun in a relative short timeframe (for Blizzard anyway)

The proof-of-concept (POC)/Alpha might have been done with 15 people. I'd bet there were 100 or more people working on it at this point.

Also, remember that until very recently, the Hex team was really small, and it's still not a huge team even today.

Mejis
02-17-2014, 09:45 PM
Regardless of all of the above comments, in relation to the OP I think the HEX client has improved dramatically in terms of stability, usability and polish over the last few months.
It's gone from being frustrating and buggy to use to a real joy for me, and with every patch there is something new to look forward to.
I'm thoroughly enjoying its development and being able to see it take shape and can't wait to see how much more it improves with time.

As an aside, I also love playing HS (please no hate, I obviously prefer the complexity and potential of HEX more), it's thoroughly enjoyable for me as something lighter and faster to dip into when have a few mins free.

Kitsune
02-17-2014, 11:15 PM
I'm not having much love for Hearthstone, it plays like a very stripped-down Magic. But to claim that its client is anything less than head and shoulders above Hex is indefensible.

Behold the deck builder, one of the more vital parts of any CCG interface. And behold how none of the text is legible:

http://i.imgur.com/7Seyopc.png

The text is sorta important. And the 'grid of cards on a black background with a scroll bar' looks like it belongs more in a flash game than a top-class card game. What it should look like is more like this:

http://i.imgur.com/W4zVMFm.jpg

Where the text is all easy to read, there are fonts other than Arial involved, the artwork is on clear display, and the cards aren't all stuffed in one scrollable window.

As anyone who's had the misfortune to play MODO knows, interface matters. If Hex is allowed to hit the market with a bad MODO-ish client, not only will they have a terrible time attracting players, it will involve all the more work to rebuild the client down the road. Rather than let the bad stuff persist, it would be better to nip it in the bud early. It's like web design; if you start off with a crappy website you'll spend twice as long trying to revise it into something decent than the time it would've taken to do it right from step 1.

If the current Hex client is just a placeholder framework for testing the card mechanics and the actual release client is totally different, then that's great, but if anyone at Crypto has even a vague thought of the current client being what's released to the public, I would beg them to reconsider for the good of the game.

hacky
02-18-2014, 01:47 AM
Where the text is all easy to read, there are fonts other than Arial involved, the artwork is on clear display, and the cards aren't all stuffed in one scrollable window.


You are comparing apples and oranges, in several ways that don't help your argument.

1) Your two example pictures show completely different resolutions. Put Hearthstone's deckbuilder cards at the same size and resolution as the Hex deckbuilder cards for a more fair comparison.

2) You can zoom in cards in both interfaces, and the text reads just fine zoomed in in both games. Most players will zoom in to read cards they are unfamiliar with, and will recognize cards by their art after they are familiar, making the need to read a card while zoomed out.

3) Hex cards simply have more text, since they have a far greater design space to work with. Hearthstone cards are mostly blank with keywords or simple powers that are communicated in few words.

Kitsune
02-18-2014, 02:36 AM
They are not at different resolutions. Both of those came from screenshots I took at 1920x1080.

You shouldn't need to zoom in to be able to read a card. Even Magic Online's godawful client scales the text up to be legible on un-zoomed cards.

Some Hex cards will need more text. Many will not. Brevity is the something of something or another.

Kroan
02-18-2014, 02:53 AM
It started like that sure. But they will have added resources after the first positive reactions. I saw that interview, it was implied that they came up with the core gameplay etc with that small team and then expanded when it showed promise.

I would be very surprised if only 15 people managed to build Hearthstone from the ground up in only a couple of years. I mean look at that new Moba - they have been teasing that for years. Diablo 3 took almost a decade. Hearthstone might be a lot easier, but it would need more than 15 people to be this polished this quickly.

I'm pretty sure that they stated that the development team consisted of 15 people. From a developer perspective that sounds about right for the magnitude of the game they build.

hacky
02-18-2014, 04:25 AM
They are not at different resolutions. Both of those came from screenshots I took at 1920x1080.

You shouldn't need to zoom in to be able to read a card. Even Magic Online's godawful client scales the text up to be legible on un-zoomed cards.

- Screen resolution is not card resolution. Hex's deckbuilder can show upwards of 20-30 cards at once. Hearthstone's shows exactly 8. If Hex's previews were as large as Hearthstone's, then I would expect similar readability. Which leads into...

- You SHOULD need to zoom in to be able to read a card. Do you sit back and expect your physical trading cards to be readable from across the table, without having to pick it up and bring it closer? If I want to read a card closely, I'll pick up the physical card--and in the digital realm, I'm going to zoom in.

I play at a much lower resolution than you. At that resolution, I have zero expectation to be able to read a card in full clarity when a card is in a deckbuilder or in my hand. If I don't recognize it by sight, I zoom in.

Hatts
02-18-2014, 07:47 AM
Keep in mind the deckbuilder is not the finished version yet. Like a lot of components it's a rough placeholder until a more polished version can be implemented.

Mahes
02-18-2014, 07:52 AM
Regardless of all of the above comments, in relation to the OP I think the HEX client has improved dramatically in terms of stability, usability and polish over the last few months.
It's gone from being frustrating and buggy to use to a real joy for me, and with every patch there is something new to look forward to.
I'm thoroughly enjoying its development and being able to see it take shape and can't wait to see how much more it improves with time.

As an aside, I also love playing HS (please no hate, I obviously prefer the complexity and potential of HEX more), it's thoroughly enjoyable for me as something lighter and faster to dip into when have a few mins free.

Stability was server related and on that note, they have indeed done a good job.

The problem and concern that is beginning to grow amongst the Alpha testers is the fact that the Tournament system is NOT improving despite having been launched before the holidays in December. I am having small doubts creep into my mind concerning the capability of their programmers to rectify situations in a timely manner.

This game has to have programmers that indeed can fix a situation quickly. Imagine when this game goes live and an unforeseen bug causes the system to either crash or create an unfair advantage for players who find the bug. You have to have programmers that can hotfix a system in hours not days/weeks. Now one can argue that the infrastructure is being built for this very purpose hence why we are in Alpha. At this point though, the infrastructure for the Tournament system should already have been built given the amount of time that has passed.

I am getting a little concerned...

P.S. The UI is one of the easier things to fix down the road. I am much more concerned over the Tournament system since that is the "Core" of PvP.

BlackRoger
02-18-2014, 08:30 AM
The tournaments did get alot better a little prior to the sealed release.
I don't know what went wrong after that, they will figure it out in time.

I'm not worried about stability, they will get better at fixing stuff as time goes by and they insert more debug tools into the clients/servers.

The only thing I'm still a little worried about is the extent of what they promised after release.
I seriously doubt they will be able to get 40 dungeons in time for release/release 3 sets a year when they also have to add pve sets and content at the same time.

I think they will have to scale down their vision a little at least for the few first years.

Niedar
02-18-2014, 05:27 PM
- Screen resolution is not card resolution. Hex's deckbuilder can show upwards of 20-30 cards at once. Hearthstone's shows exactly 8. If Hex's previews were as large as Hearthstone's, then I would expect similar readability. Which leads into...

- You SHOULD need to zoom in to be able to read a card. Do you sit back and expect your physical trading cards to be readable from across the table, without having to pick it up and bring it closer? If I want to read a card closely, I'll pick up the physical card--and in the digital realm, I'm going to zoom in.

I play at a much lower resolution than you. At that resolution, I have zero expectation to be able to read a card in full clarity when a card is in a deckbuilder or in my hand. If I don't recognize it by sight, I zoom in.

Absolutely not, I should not have to zoom in on a card to be able to read its text while its in the deck editor or in my hand. The only time this should possibly be required is when there are so many cards in play that they have to be scaled way down and btw this is still bad.

For as long as this is not the case, even MTGO has a better user interface than hex. Im sorry but there is no excuse for this besides yes it is a problem and yes it will be fixed.

Xenavire
02-18-2014, 06:04 PM
Absolutely not, I should not have to zoom in on a card to be able to read its text while its in the deck editor or in my hand. The only time this should possibly be required is when there are so many cards in play that they have to be scaled way down and btw this is still bad.

For as long as this is not the case, even MTGO has a better user interface than hex. Im sorry but there is no excuse for this besides yes it is a problem and yes it will be fixed.

Duelists of the planewalkers has that exact problem, and no-one complains. You are just expecting WAY too much. I don't even care if it is alpha or launch, this is so low priority its laughable.

It is a single click or scroll away from being super sharp and clear. Just get over it.

Resand
02-19-2014, 02:08 AM
And we are comparing a game in the middle of Alpha and one in late Beta, almost release candidate. Bells and whistles are added in Beta for most part. Alpha is for getting the core system working.

Cernz
02-19-2014, 02:26 AM
as i start playing hex some weeks ago i also was complaining about the small hard to read text (without zoom), mostly because i also played hearthstone at the same time (where it looks better), but meanwhile im fine with the scroll/right klick to zoom mechanic. also i mostly play hex instead of hs ;) game is quite more fun for me. but if they would improve the text some more, it would of course be better, but this is not a priority issue at this time as xenavire said.

Xtopher
02-19-2014, 07:31 PM
I agree that the text being too small is a problem -- definitely not a laughable issue. It will probably be addressed at some point, but I haven't read anything from CZE stating that.

BongoBong
02-19-2014, 08:41 PM
I agree that the text being too small is a problem -- definitely not a laughable issue. It will probably be addressed at some point, but I haven't read anything from CZE stating that.

One thing they really should do is make it possible to scroll through cards when zoomed in. The system right now is weird and really annoying for checking out cards. Ideally I think it should be right click to zoom in, then when zoomed in right click anywhere unzooms (currently only works on the card), and left click to the right of the card scrolls right, and same for the left (make giant arrows or something beside the card).