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View Full Version : Kickstarter Backer Deferral for PVE Deferral



ThomasHunter
02-20-2014, 12:41 PM
Greetings awesome Hex community!

I've not posted but a couple of times, but I have kept up with all of the official news. I have even tried the alpha client a couple of times. However, as a Dungeon Crawler Backer, I backed for a MMOTCG, so the current state of the client isn't all that appealing to me. From recent news from Cory, it sounds like backer awards are being given out before we even really sniff PVE.:(

Please note that I am in no way "outraged" that PVP is being going to be released first. I am however sad that the reason I backed this game (the PVE) isn't coinciding with the backer rewards. Also note that I still have great faith in CZE and Cory to make this game fantastic! I know there is another thread that talks about if the Kickstarter started today, what would you do. Well, I wouldn't do anything different (with a caveat which is the point of this post). Backing took a lot of resources, but I am still hoping that it will be justified! I also want to still be a VIP from day 1.

Okay, what is the caveat? I would want to back as a Dungeon Crawler (I'm guessing that Raid Leaders might feel similarly), but have those rewards be deferred to when PVE is released in Beta.

Cory and team, PLEASE consider this (not even sure if it is possible) option to defer rewards for those DC's and RL's who deem this in a similar light.

What it comes down to, is I get all of this product, and no real reason and/or place to play.

Obviously, that is an overstatement, but for how I planned to play this MMOTCG, this isn't too far off. Sure, the 52 free drafts were a nice value proposition, but even there, I don't want to really draft until I know how PVE will work (to me, that could be "how" I end up drafting and experimenting).

I hope this doesn't come across as whiny or angry or with some sort of entitlement mentality - it isn't meant to do that. I simply wanted to share an opinion of an invested "lurker" who can't wait to play the game that I bought (but knowing it is a bit further down the road than had hoped).

Thank you for your consideration and time!:)

Xenavire
02-20-2014, 12:47 PM
Deferred rewards? Like delaying those rewards until later. Can I ask why? As it stands, you lose nothing by gaining those rewards early (there are no rewards that expire if you don't use them for the PvE tiers, barring the login for Spectral Lotus.) I can't see the point of having the rewards, at least the PvE centric ones, but you do have other rewards to enjoy in the meantime, and you lose nothing in the meantime.

I can't argue that it might be nicer, but can you explain a little more clearly why you would want this? I am genuinely interested.

Gwaer
02-20-2014, 12:50 PM
Seems like it could be a lot of work depending on how they implement it, or none at all. If the 52 weeks start when you enter in a code in the client that unlocks that reward for you, then just wait to enter it then. If not.... Then they may have to create separate classes of the 52 weeks of free draft reward... Hopefully if you keep your eyes open you should find out if you can get what you want soonish. They'll have to tell us how the rewards will work eventually =)

Kroan
02-20-2014, 12:51 PM
The only point to be made is that your free drafts run out. But drafts only have PvP cards. You don't get any PvE stuff during your drafts, so unless I'm missing something i'm not sure what you're actually asking :P

Gwaer
02-20-2014, 12:59 PM
Depends on if treasure chests, and all of the loot they could drop are in-game yet.

Xenavire
02-20-2014, 01:01 PM
Treasure chest themselves would have to be, even if they are only placeholders. Because they are not going to have an easy time of retroactively adding treasure chests to players accounts.

I don't know about the actual content of chests, but I doubt boosters will be for sale without chest placeholders at the very least.

Kroan
02-20-2014, 01:03 PM
I'd imagine they just keep a record of boosters you open and you get your chests somewhere in the future... or even better a placeholder :)

Xenavire
02-20-2014, 01:07 PM
I'd imagine they just keep a record of boosters you open and you get your chests somewhere in the future... or even better a placeholder :)

I would assume everything would be tracked, but think about it - they would have to figure out a way to retroactively generate random chests in the correct spread that the opening of the actual boosters would have yielded - that's an absolute nightmare.

the_artic_one
02-20-2014, 01:21 PM
As I understand it they're distributing KS rewards through promo codes. I imagine if you don't use the code right away the timers for 1 year of drafts etc. won't start until you use them.

Miwa
02-20-2014, 02:46 PM
Unlikely drafts are given as codes, otherwise you could easily stack them (or sell them) by using the code on some other account.

I don't think they'd want to delay the drafts, otherwise a lot of people would, since Set 2 and later drafts will probably be worth more than Set 1 drafts. Plus the idea was to get people playing in the first place.

Yoss
02-20-2014, 02:52 PM
As long as Set 1 packs have everything they will ever have (e.g. chests), then there's no value loss to start drafting now.

Also, since the KS rewards come as codes, couldn't you just delay entering the code in order to delay collecting your rewards? (It depends how CZE implements it.)

mach
02-20-2014, 03:17 PM
As long as Set 1 packs have everything they will ever have (e.g. chests), then there's no value loss to start drafting now.

It's not about value. The OP just has no desire to play a PvE-less game but doesn't want to waste some of the free drafts.



Also, since the KS rewards come as codes, couldn't you just delay entering the code in order to delay collecting your rewards? (It depends how CZE implements it.)

Maybe, maybe not. I'm guessing they won't want people not using the codes out of expectation that they will be worth far more in the future (especially for those tiers with untradeable perks). So there may be an expiration data on redemption.

Xenavire
02-20-2014, 04:00 PM
So there may be an expiration data on redemption.

There is, but I think they mentioned it being post-launch. But there is a time limit, so better to play it safe if you are unsure and will be away from the game for an extended period.

Yoss
02-20-2014, 04:29 PM
I don't see why there should be an expiration. It would be like buying a car wash coupon today (or store credit) and wanting to redeem it later. The company gets the cash now, and the longer I take to redeem, the better it is for the company's cash flow.

Expiration dates are used on coupons and deals that a company is using to drive sales. In the case of a coupon, I haven't paid anything yet. I just have a promise of reduced price at some point in the future. This is a liability to the company, rather than a benefit. Rather than having my money and owing me a service (good), instead they owe me a discount when I eventually give them money.

Xenavire
02-20-2014, 04:33 PM
Take it up with CZE, they mentioned the expiration dates. I don't know if the information is current, but they wanted to prevent a certain type of abuse.

Rendakor
02-20-2014, 04:49 PM
They'd certainly rather have players redeem codes and start playing than sit on codes trying to flip them on eBay.

mudkip
02-20-2014, 08:03 PM
They'd certainly rather have players redeem codes and start playing than sit on codes trying to flip them on eBay.

I seriously hope they don't care about that. You remember how the Hearthstone beta keys were selling on ebay for like, $200? You can't buy that sort of advertisement!

When people see perks selling on Ebay for large amounts, they're going to wonder what this "Hex" game is all about and have a go.

Barkam
02-20-2014, 08:32 PM
I don't see why there should be an expiration. It would be like buying a car wash coupon today (or store credit) and wanting to redeem it later. The company gets the cash now, and the longer I take to redeem, the better it is for the company's cash flow.

Expiration dates are used on coupons and deals that a company is using to drive sales. In the case of a coupon, I haven't paid anything yet. I just have a promise of reduced price at some point in the future. This is a liability to the company, rather than a benefit. Rather than having my money and owing me a service (good), instead they owe me a discount when I eventually give them money.

Same idea that employers don't let you bank your vacation hours indefinitely. Vacation hours 10 years from now is definitely worth a lot more than today's vacation hours. Likewise, 1 year draft from kickstarter will give you free access to Set 1, 2 and 3 which is cheaper than Set 4, 5 and 6 from the fact that you already have tons of free Set 1 cards and no Set 4, 5 and 6 cards from kickstarter bonus.

Parzival
02-20-2014, 09:53 PM
I don't think there will be an expiration on KS codes, I just think the one year free drafts will start from Day 1.

If you redeem six months down the line, tough.

Yoss
02-20-2014, 10:13 PM
Same idea that employers don't let you bank your vacation hours indefinitely. Vacation hours 10 years from now is definitely worth a lot more than today's vacation hours.

Banked time off is money they owe you, a liability. That's not at all the same as a product that you've paid for but not claimed yet. Think of it this way. I give you $100 today and you give me a gift card for $100 at your store. I don't claim it until a year later. Meanwhile, you invested that $100 and now have $110. You give me my $100 worth of stuff and keep the $10, on top of the profit you normally would have had on whatever it is I bought for the $100.

The argument about the value of different sets on the secondary market also isn't relevant because we're talking about the value when purchased from CZE, which is always $2 regardless of which set you're talking about. Therefore, we can just think like the first paragraph says: money now for product later.

Gwaer
02-20-2014, 10:49 PM
Most gift cards also lose value over time if unused.

Yoss
02-20-2014, 11:14 PM
Most gift cards also lose value over time if unused.

By that you mean inflation, not the numerical value. Same can be said of the $2 store credit for boosters. That $2 is worth less tomorrow than today.

Patrigan
02-20-2014, 11:23 PM
By that you mean inflation, not the numerical value. Same can be said of the $2 store credit for boosters. That $2 is worth less tomorrow than today.

Many gift cards have an actual expiration date, I think that's what he meant. I don't think these coupons will be different. The codes will likely have an expiration date of about 2 years, maybe even only one.

Gwaer
02-20-2014, 11:28 PM
Many gift cards have an actual expiration date, I think that's what he meant. I don't think these coupons will be different. The codes will likely have an expiration date of about 2 years, maybe even only one.


Either an expiration date, or the money goes away at a rate between some cents or some dollars a month until it is all used up. Having product you owe indefinitely is bad business. And the prize support from free drafts is product. They have plenty of prior examples of how this usually goes that they are fully justified in having a use by date.

Heck even services like groupon/living social et al have promotional value expires (X), paid value expires (Y) clauses on all of their coupons that you pay for up front.

Yoss
02-21-2014, 12:11 AM
I'd never heard of gift cards that deplete over time. Seems like that would/should be illegal; you already paid and it's supposed to work like cash, at least in California (where CZE is).

Patrigan
02-21-2014, 01:20 AM
I'd never heard of gift cards that deplete over time. Seems like that would/should be illegal; you already paid and it's supposed to work like cash, at least in California (where CZE is).

No, you pay for an object. In this case a gift card that depletes over time (or with an expiry date). You should be informed up front how the gift card works.

Yoss
02-21-2014, 09:35 AM
Gift card depletion is illegal in California. (Note that the KS rewards probably would not be considered gift cards under the law.)

http://lifehacker.com/5718492/know-your-rights-never-waste-a-gift-card-again

the state of California doesn't permit the expiration of gift cards—meaning any expiration date is rendered invalid if issued in California—and you can exchange your gift card for cash if the balance is $10 or less. Massachusetts has a similar law in which you can redeem your gift card for cash once 90% of the value has been spent


You should be informed up front how the gift card works.

I agree with this. I don't remember what the KS said about reward claims and/or terms.

Gwaer
02-21-2014, 09:51 AM
I'd think kickstarter doesn't care. As long as you are provided the stuff, if you don't use it before parts expire that's between you and the company. They've mentioned a limited window to redeem your codes, but not the fine details of how all of that will work. It'd be entirely within CZE's rights to have the free year of drafts start at release, and not be tied to any individual account.

Xtopher
02-21-2014, 10:08 AM
Within their rights, but probably not the most customer-friendly way to handle it. Whatever they do, I'm sure it will be fair.

mudkip
02-21-2014, 10:09 AM
While we talk about the free drafts, I hope it works like a token system. I.e. once a week you are given a free draft token to be used at any time. If the weekly draft expires and I'm busy that week, I'm seriously just going to rare draft and quit.

Gwaer
02-21-2014, 10:54 AM
They've said a number of times that they weren't going for a token system like that. I think it would be pretty neat, especially if those tokens could be sold. It'd be a lot of value in the is tiers, especially the free drafts for life guys.

But on the other hand. It puts a lot of free product CZE has to provide on the table, it will drive the prices of set one packs down further. The move that is best economically for the game is definitely start the free drafts ticking from release, take the hit with everyone that gets them, feel bad for the people that miss out, but that was a gift they tacked on to make people feel better about the PP's all being sold out. In my opinion it puts the economy of the game in great peril.

mudkip
02-21-2014, 11:01 AM
They've said a number of times that they weren't going for a token system like that. I think it would be pretty neat, especially if those tokens could be sold. It'd be a lot of value in the is tiers, especially the free drafts for life guys.

But on the other hand. It puts a lot of free product CZE has to provide on the table, it will drive the prices of set one packs down further. The move that is best economically for the game is definitely start the free drafts ticking from release, take the hit with everyone that gets them, feel bad for the people that miss out, but that was a gift they tacked on to make people feel better about the PP's all being sold out. In my opinion it puts the economy of the game in great peril.
Dang. I wouldn't mind the tokens being BoP. It's just a pain if e.g. you go on holidays or something for a few weeks, or you save your token for the weekend but end up being too busy. It's basically the same issue as those daily rewards of sleazeware games that make you log in each day to get a reward.

Gwaer
02-21-2014, 11:37 AM
I think of it more as a value add, it sucks when you miss out. But it's awesome every time you get one. The tiers with free drafts for a year were entirely worth it whether you get 52 free drafts or no free drafts IMO.

Yoss
02-21-2014, 02:17 PM
Would be cool if the "free year" tiers just got 52 tokens up front to use any time within the year, similar to the lower tier bous of just a couple free tokens. Then on less busy weeks you can draft twice, other weeks skip. Untradeable would be fine.

tautologico
02-21-2014, 05:05 PM
The OP's request is perfectly understandable and valid. People who backed because of PVE may not want to play PVP-only, even if they play drafts and other PVP stuff together with PVE. As a mostly PVE WoW player, once in a while I entered a PVP Battleground for the sake of variety and to try new things. But I probably wouldn't play WoW if it didn't have the PVE and was PVP-only. (Not that this is my case with HEX, as I plan to play my drafts from day 1, but I can understand the perspective of mostly-PVE players).

Freebird_Falcon
02-26-2014, 10:17 AM
I'd never heard of gift cards that deplete over time. Seems like that would/should be illegal; you already paid and it's supposed to work like cash, at least in California (where CZE is).

Some have account maintenance fees, though you see it much less these days.

Gift cards can't be counted as income by a company until you begin using the value. In many states, the limit is 2 years. It's assumed you'll never redeem the value if you haven't by then. I didn't know Cali treated them like cash though, which is great because gc's expiring is my #1 reason for refusing to buy them.

I get the op's concern. Basically saying he won't be incentivized to log in because there's no pve, and therefore will miss out on free draft value he would otherwise use once pve has him playing. I would be surprised if they allowed it, though it may be smart to allow deferral to lessen the impact of all these free drafts going live at the same time.