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Daer
02-27-2014, 04:43 PM
Cory made a new post on his tumblr with a preview of the pack opening experience:

http://coryhudsonjones.tumblr.com/post/78051410843/the-pack-opening-experience-or-how-much-fun-can-i


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyHM7XOIkIo

hex_colin
02-27-2014, 04:46 PM
One less secret to keep! So awesome - and a true gold sink!!! ;) It's literally a tiny sink you can put gold into!!!

Edit: Also, WTB Tyler to do the art for my vanity cards!

Daer
02-27-2014, 04:49 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8VySTqmhQ


This is the first look at our wheels of fate animation for the HEX TCG MMO. Every booster pack comes with a treasure chest featuring exclusive prizes. Spin the wheel to win bonus rewards and potentially upgrade the contents of your treasure chest!

GrinningBuddha
02-27-2014, 04:51 PM
Mmmmmmm, getting that slot machine experience in your own home for virtual money. Me likey. :D

Xenavire
02-27-2014, 04:57 PM
I am going to spend so much gold (and maybe even plat!) on this. Pure genius, and what a way to cross promote PvE and PvP!

Anyone who has been doubting the F2P model has to be double taking right now. Maybe not convinced yet, but certainly surprised.

hex_colin
02-27-2014, 05:02 PM
I am going to spend so much gold (and maybe even plat!) on this. Pure genius, and what a way to cross promote PvE and PvP!

Me too! I'm betting there will be nights I don't get past the slot machine. Or... "wait, I'll be ready for my match in 10 minutes, just opening some packs..."

Rycajo
02-27-2014, 05:03 PM
I am going to spend so much gold (and maybe even plat!) on this. Pure genius, and what a way to cross promote PvE and PvP!

Anyone who has been doubting the F2P model has to be double taking right now. Maybe not convinced yet, but certainly surprised.

I came here to say this very thing. Seems like a very good way to mix the community together.

hex_colin
02-27-2014, 05:09 PM
I came here to say this very thing. Seems like a very good way to mix the community together.

Cory is an evil genius. He just needs time to realize his plan.

I noticed Hearthstone has started stealing ideas too - all of the new stuff about card backs = sleeves.

mudkip
02-27-2014, 05:10 PM
Sounds fun.

I guess that explain what the gold will be used for in Beta?

Mejis
02-27-2014, 05:10 PM
Whoa, amazing vids. Can't wait to experience this for real!

Daer
02-27-2014, 05:11 PM
Yeah with treasure chests optionally using gold it gives PVPers an incentive to sell cards/packs for gold instead of just platinum, helping out the PVEers.

Danrax
02-27-2014, 05:25 PM
I love Hex, but this system has me a bit concerned - Not the actual system itself, but the possible perceived reception to its implementation. It definitely presents itself as a highly addictive form of gambling that you see on the worst F2P offenders on mobile, and there's your standard scantily clad female fantasy figure looped into the whole thing. Again I don't actually see any issue with it except for the potential problematic perception of said system the way it appears, I have no doubt that the system is actually fine and not one of the more socially engineered monetization methods that delve into pyschological technique to extract more money, but this is the kind of thing out of context that could end up being the focus of some hack writer's "OMG F2P IS THE DEVIL" piece.

Gwaer
02-27-2014, 05:48 PM
Once again, another post from someone who has no problem with something, about imagined people that do. I swear I've never seen that tactic so much anywhere in my life. But here every new piece of information gets that exact same reception.

It doesn't matter if a hack writer writes a piece to that end, if he's a hack no one will listen to him.

YourOpponent
02-27-2014, 06:03 PM
I was very impressed by the pack opening and the "wheels of fate" so much that I played it multiple times and paused things even to get a closer look! Very nicely done!!

Arcadia
02-27-2014, 06:07 PM
Once again, another post from someone who has no problem with something, about imagined people that do. I swear I've never seen that tactic so much anywhere in my life. But here every new piece of information gets that exact same reception.

Otherwise known as "concern trolling."

mach
02-27-2014, 06:16 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about this.

On one hand, I support gold sinks and understand how important they are for a proper economy. On the other hand, since gold is the PvE currency I feel that gold sinks should be PvE-related, not PvP-related. If someone just wants to play the PvP side of the game, they should not need to worry about gold at all.

Additionally, if I'm spending real money to buy a pack it doesn't feel good to also have to spend in-game currency to get full value from my purchase. Perhaps we could have a distinction between packs bought from the store, which would come with a treasure chest of a quality as though the max amount of gold has already been spent on it, and prize packs, which would have the normal chest.

-------------

I'm also curious how this will work when opening packs for a sealed/draft event. This is where I expect the great majority of packs to be opened. One of the first lessons you teach a new MTGO player is to never open packs outside a Limited event. I expect the same to be true in Hex. But at the same time, I don't want someone else's pack opening experience slowing down my draft.

Mejis
02-27-2014, 06:27 PM
... and there's your standard scantily clad female fantasy figure looped into the whole thing.

Yes, as awesome as that artwork is, it did make me cringe slightly at the lack of certain clothing!
But anyway, the pack opening looks amazing.

Beck
02-27-2014, 06:32 PM
Does anyone know if a pack opened in draft will provide a treasure chest that you would be then able to open later?

hex_colin
02-27-2014, 06:34 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about this.

On one hand, I support gold sinks and understand how important they are for a proper economy. On the other hand, since gold is the PvE currency I feel that gold sinks should be PvE-related, not PvP-related. If someone just wants to play the PvP side of the game, they should not need to worry about gold at all.

Additionally, if I'm spending real money to buy a pack it doesn't feel good to also have to spend in-game currency to get full value from my purchase. Perhaps we could have a distinction between packs bought from the store, which would come with a treasure chest of a quality as though the max amount of gold has already been spent on it, and prize packs, which would have the normal chest.

-------------

I'm also curious how this will work when opening packs for a sealed/draft event. This is where I expect the great majority of packs to be opened. One of the first lessons you teach a new MTGO player is to never open packs outside a Limited event. I expect the same to be true in Hex. But at the same time, I don't want someone else's pack opening experience slowing down my draft.

There will be PVE gold sinks too. Cory has stated a commitment to people being able to play without ever buying a pack, and I believe him. Will you get all the cool toys as quickly as you could otherwise, no, but that's F2P.

The expectation (although I don't know anything for sure) is that you'll be able to get gold in PVP by selling your excess PVP cards.

You get the treasure chest with a pack no matter what. You still have a chance at a Legendary one at that. Gold just gives you a way to gamble on a chance at a better one!

Packs opening in draft won't work the same way. And Cory has stated that your treasure chests will just end up in your inventory for later opening, and gambling with if that's what gives you 1000 boners.

hex_colin
02-27-2014, 06:34 PM
Does anyone know if a pack opened in draft will provide a treasure chest that you would be then able to open later?

Yes, it does.

Shadowelf would get you a link if he hadn't deserted us... ;)

Shaqattaq
02-27-2014, 06:44 PM
With the Free-to-Play environment the way that it is now, I can see where players would be skeptical of these bonuses. Of course, our Kickstarter supporters understand that we made this game for the players as players ourselves. That's why players don't see "energy" limiting the amount a player can game or anything like that. For new players, we're going to do our best so players understand these are all free bonus rewards, no strings attached! Players can always just open their chest for the prize. For players who are in HEX and earning gold through dungeons and quests, they can spend it in many ways. That includes potentially upgrading their treasure chest.

mach
02-27-2014, 06:55 PM
There will be PVE gold sinks too. Cory has stated a commitment to people being able to play without ever buying a pack, and I believe him. Will you get all the cool toys as quickly as you could otherwise, no, but that's F2P.


That's not my point. I'm saying that since gold is the PvE currency, gold sinks should be part of PvE, not PvP.



Packs opening in draft won't work the same way. And Cory has stated that your treasure chests will just end up in your inventory for later opening, and gambling with if that's what gives you 1000 boners.

Okay, now I'm confused. What's the point of putting so much effort into a neat pack-opening animation if no player who knows what they're doing will open a pack this way?

Drake6k
02-27-2014, 06:58 PM
I don't like how you have to drop the pack at the top of the screen. If it was moved down and had the pool angled at the camera a bit more, the focus would be more on throwing the pack into the pool and less on the lady with the big boobs.

Rycajo
02-27-2014, 06:59 PM
They have said packs will just drop into your inventory if not opened immediately (as in a limited event like draft). This is great as PvP players can treat those chests as a resource to acquire platinum for entry fees. Like Cory says, maybe they are crazy for packing so much value into a single booster.

As an aside, the various rarities and limited re-rolls on treasure chests further moves this item away from being a true commodity. Add that to event-tagged chests and our market will sport a variety of product.

hex_colin
02-27-2014, 07:01 PM
That's not my point. I'm saying that since gold is the PvE currency, gold sinks should be part of PvE, not PvP.

Why? Because you don't like the idea? You'll have multiple ways to acquire gold to do something you don't need to bother about if you don't care! The definition of a gold sink...


Okay, now I'm confused. What's the point of putting so much effort into a neat pack-opening animation if no player who knows what they're doing will open a pack this way?

That's just offensive. Really.

I'll open lots of packs outside of limited so I don't know what I'm doing? Stop trolling...

Gwaer
02-27-2014, 07:05 PM
The pack opening area also houses the chest lottery thing. The chest lottery thing will be used by a lot of people whether they open packs there or not. Also, just because limited is the most cost effective place to open packs, it is not the most time effective place to open packs. Even if all packs are not opened there, many will be.

hex_colin
02-27-2014, 07:08 PM
The pack opening area also houses the chest lottery thing. The chest lottery thing will be used by a lot of people whether they open packs there or not. Also, just because limited is the most cost effective place to open packs, it is not the most time effective place to open packs. Even if all packs are not opened there, many will be.

Exactly.

Also, just because some people are all about value maximization and getting every sliver of value they can get from opening a pack, doesn't mean that everyone is. And, over time, the people who care less about maximizing the value of every pack (by only opening them in Limited formats) will quickly become the majority. The age old trade off of time vs. money.

YourOpponent
02-27-2014, 07:14 PM
Okay, now I'm confused. What's the point of putting so much effort into a neat pack-opening animation if no player who knows what they're doing will open a pack this way?

Yes the optimal usage of a pack would be for limited, but that doesn't mean that people will just use them that way...even skilled players for that matter. I'm planning on IMMEDIATELY opening 10% of my packs from the KS rewards just to jump into Constructed tournaments that way. Do I realize that I'm keeping myself from getting as many potential booster packs as I could of otherwise? Yes, but it doesn't mean I'm stupid...it just means that I have more than one way to enjoy the game and want to enjoy it in a way different from how you do.

mach
02-27-2014, 07:34 PM
Why? Because you don't like the idea? You'll have multiple ways to acquire gold to do something you don't need to bother about if you don't care! The definition of a gold sink...


That's not how most competitive players (a large part of the target audience for PvP) think. If spending gold to upgrade your treasure chest adds value, it becomes mandatory.

Having to worry about gold and manage your gold balance isn't fun for someone who is only interested in the PvP side of things.



That's just offensive. Really.

I'll open lots of packs outside of limited so I don't know what I'm doing? Stop trolling...

But why? Because you enjoy the animation that much?

You're welcome to do what you want, of course. But I see no reason why in general things will work any differently from MTGO, where pack-cracking happens very rarely. Even if you're not interested in Limited yourself, it is far more efficient in terms of both time and money to sell the unopened packs and buy the cards you want.

Refugee
02-27-2014, 07:45 PM
I think some people in this thread are failing to acknowledge that not everyone's preferences are identical.

Are you a collector type? The slot machine and treasure chest experience seem like they'd really scratch an itch for you.

Hardcore drafting player? Each pack you draft comes with a treasure chest you can trade for more packs! (Not at a 1 to 1 ratio obviously).

Just love the PvE experience? Well you're getting a lot of gold and probably want a lot of mercenaries... some of which come from the pack opening experience. Get to the auction house and get that gold economy moving.

While more options are not always better (too many different types of tournaments delaying queue fires for example), this method of opening packs really only leaves everyone better off as far as I can see.

hex_colin
02-27-2014, 07:48 PM
That's not how most competitive players (a large part of the target audience for PvP) think. If spending gold to upgrade your treasure chest adds value, it becomes mandatory.

Having to worry about gold and manage your gold balance isn't fun for someone who is only interested in the PvP side of things.

Why do you have to manage your gold balance for PVP? To participate in an entirely optional activity? You don't. If you don't want to do it, ignore it and play limited all the time. If you're concerned that other people are getting things you aren't, then you know exactly how to get them yourself.


You're welcome to do what you want, of course. But I see no reason why in general things will work any differently from MTGO, where pack-cracking happens very rarely. Even if you're not interested in Limited yourself, it is far more efficient in terms of both time and money to sell the unopened packs and buy the cards you want.

That's not true in so many different ways. How do you know that MTGO pack-cracking happens rarely? Has WOTC published numbers? And, by far, the most efficient way of acquiring cards in terms of time is to buy lots of packs and crack them en masse. Your method is efficient from a money perspective, but dubious from a time invested perspective.

Gwaer
02-27-2014, 07:50 PM
^ very well said Refugee, this is one place that more options is better. People that aren't interested in opening packs ever for any reason will likely not use that pack opening animation much. More power to them, I will certainly open some packs there... Most people likely will, considering the sheer number of packs we got from the KS, virtually everyone who pledged there will see more immediate benefit from opening some packs straight out of the gate.

YourOpponent
02-27-2014, 07:50 PM
Even if you're not interested in Limited yourself, it is far more efficient in terms of both time and money to sell the unopened packs and buy the cards you want.

Yes in MTGO it certainly is and Hex will likely be that way too, but when sets are first released it's likely that the cost of rares and legendaries are the same price or slightly expensive than the cost of the packs they've opened from...at least that's what I noticed from Confrontation, Warstorm, and a few other TCG's.

Xenavire
02-27-2014, 07:54 PM
That's not how most competitive players (a large part of the target audience for PvP) think. If spending gold to upgrade your treasure chest adds value, it becomes mandatory.

Having to worry about gold and manage your gold balance isn't fun for someone who is only interested in the PvP side of things.

If most of the added value is for PvE though, why would PvP players care enough to spend the gold? This makes no sense. They may as well just offload the chests ASAP and let other people deal with the gambling. You argument is completely worthless - it is only worth what you can sell it for on the AH. This 'boosted value' means very little since it is un-opened. And once it is opened, the value is set to whatever you got out.

Hardcore PvP players are likely to skip the chests unless they have a very high chance of containing extra bootser packs.

Ju66ernaut
02-27-2014, 07:56 PM
This looks awesome. Well done CZE. I cannot wait to start throwing my gold into the old Golden Saucer!

Refugee
02-27-2014, 07:57 PM
Let's try and translate the rewards! (I think I have a pretty good start)

I believe the round symbol (if you look closely it seems to have arrows encircling it) means effectively "spin". The symbol often found to the left of it is a little pile of gold and means roughly "pay" thus the paired symbols often found to the right mean "pay to spin again".

Thus from top to bottom the rewards are:

Nothing (pay to spin again)
Free spin
Level Chest and game over (There is no pay to spin again symbol)
Equipment reward: weapon (pay to spin again)
Equipment reward: armor (pay to spin again)
Level Chest (pay to spin again)
Mercenary (pay to spin again)
Cards of some sort (pay to spin again)
Cards of some sort (pay to spin again)
Level chest TWICE (pay to spin again)
Super awesome card of some sort. Possibly a primal pack? (pay to spin again)

Thoughts on specifics of what those card packs might be?

Leingod
02-27-2014, 08:01 PM
Considering how often I see hearthstone streamers advertise they are opening a set of packs, I imagine there will definitely be many people opening packs outside of drafts.

I sort of agree about the using gold to upgrade thing that Mach is talking about. Sure, it is entirely optional, but for the most competitive players, getting the most value is a high priority. This reminds me of how many high end PVPers in WoW would feel forced to do raiding for optimal equipment for pvp. This is, of course, assuming that you do not earn any gold through pvp. I think what could be interesting is attaching a small amount of gold to tournament placings, including 7th and 8th. This way the players who don't win packs can feel like they come away with something since they can put that toward upgrading chests from their draft packs. This is just off the top of my head so I'm sure there are downsides to that, and maybe CZE even has some way to earn gold through pvp already.

Refugee
02-27-2014, 08:03 PM
Let's try and translate the rewards! (I think I have a pretty good start)

I believe the round symbol (if you look closely it seems to have arrows encircling it) means effectively "spin". The symbol often found to the left of it is a little pile of gold and means roughly "pay" thus the paired symbols often found to the right mean "pay to spin again".

Thus from top to bottom the rewards are:

Nothing (pay to spin again)
Free spin
Level Chest and game over (There is no pay to spin again symbol)
Equipment reward: weapon (pay to spin again)
Equipment reward: armor (pay to spin again)
Level Chest (pay to spin again)
Mercenary (pay to spin again)
Cards of some sort (pay to spin again)
Cards of some sort (pay to spin again)
Level chest TWICE (pay to spin again)
Super awesome card of some sort. Possibly a primal pack? (pay to spin again)

Thoughts on specifics of what those card packs might be?

Upon a bit of further reflection: first set of cards are likely sleeves. Second pack of cards is a normal pack. Final pack of cards is indeed primal. Just guesses of course but makes sense from the symbols.

mach
02-27-2014, 08:12 PM
Why do you have to manage your gold balance for PVP? To participate in an entirely optional activity? You don't. If you don't want to do it, ignore it and play limited all the time. If you're concerned that other people are getting things you aren't, then you know exactly how to get them yourself.


You ignore the psychology of these players. You may consider it optional, but they won't.



That's not true in so many different ways. How do you know that MTGO pack-cracking happens rarely? Has WOTC published numbers? And, by far, the most efficient way of acquiring cards in terms of time is to buy lots of packs and crack them en masse. Your method is efficient from a money perspective, but dubious from a time invested perspective.

That's not even relevant, since if you're cracking packs en-masse you're skipping the pack-opening experience anyway.

But even if it were, that's still not as efficient as just selling the packs and buying exactly what you want unless you're in the .01% of the playerbase who will be buying hundreds/thousands of packs at once.



^ very well said Refugee, this is one place that more options is better. People that aren't interested in opening packs ever for any reason will likely not use that pack opening animation much. More power to them, I will certainly open some packs there... Most people likely will, considering the sheer number of packs we got from the KS, virtually everyone who pledged there will see more immediate benefit from opening some packs straight out of the gate.

Options are fine. If they really want to spend time and money on something that most players will probably never see, that's their call.

However, given how far behind schedule Hex is and given how many things which are essential for beta still need to be done, spending time on something like this right now means they aren't prioritizing properly.

DanTheMeek
02-27-2014, 08:16 PM
Has it been confirmed that treasure chests can be sold/traded? If it has, then Xenavire more or less stated my thoughts on this. I think the concerns being expressed here are legitimate, and some times even if there is a work around, the impression a player gets is more important so it really needs to be made readily apparent to new players that they both need pve gold to get the most out of their treasure chests, and that the chest can be sold on the AH if they don't want any part of the pve experience.

I would like to add though... why are you playing Hex if you want no part of PvE? Not that you can't, there's no reason you can't enjoy pvp and not care for pve, but it seems like what's going to seperate Hex from the many other OTCGs, and MTGO in particular, is its PvE experience, not the PvP one, which is shaping up well, but is not necessarily better or especially revolutionary compared to the other PvP experiences out there, so I almost feel like if you're not willing to at least dabble in Hex's PvE at little, you're kind of missing the point of Hex. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong for doing so, but I do not at all fault Hex for trying to encourage the hardcore PvP players to at least take a look at their PvE experience with a bonus like this one, if anything I applaud them... as long as treasure chests ARE sellable, cause again, I think every player should give Hex's PvE a chance, but I don't think they should HAVE to play it if they really don't want to and even a small possibility of pvp packs potentially coming out of the wheel of fate and treasure chests absolutely makes them relevant to PvP players.

Anyway, my impressions on all this were quite positive, all the concerns expressed in this thread already all came to mind, but I think the good out weighs the bad and these are all overall good choices. It not only looks like the pack opening experience is going to be exceptional, but that they are doing a solid job of trying to encourage the PvErs and the PvPrs to give the other side of the pond a chance, which I think will be better for all sides involved in the long run.

knightofeffect
02-27-2014, 08:21 PM
I think creating an RNG gambling mechanism is a great way to reinforce the F2P game structure.

I thought this might be where Cory was going with his comments at DragonCon and am glad that they decided to put full packs in treasure chests. The obscurification of the wheel RNG will keep the gold invested from significantly devaluing the packs themselves.

Hear, hear!

DanTheMeek
02-27-2014, 08:25 PM
However, given how far behind schedule Hex is and given how many things which are essential for beta still need to be done, spending time on something like this right now means they aren't prioritizing properly.

I actually agree with a lot of the points you've shared in this thread Mach, perhaps not as strongly as you but I'm certainly not going to argue them, but this one I have to STRONGLY disagree with. I think, as Corey himself illustrated in his blog, pack opening is one of THE single most memorable and enjoyable experiences in card games. Yet its never been even close to as enjoyable online for me as it is in real life. I think if online TCGs are truly going to compete with their real life brethern, making pack opening as amazing as absolutely possible is flat out essential, every bit as important as any other aspect of the game, and the fact that Corey realizes this while so many other online card games do not really shows just how much truth there is to his claims of being a real card game player and not some silver tongued snake oil salesman. And lets face it, it makes sense from a business perspective as well, the more I enjoy opening a pack, the more likely I'm going to be to want to open more.

Personally I'm still hopeful there will be a "keep what you open" draft format where we can still experience the pack opening experience prior to making our pick passing the pack to the left/right, allowing the pack opening experience to be enjoyed even for those who want to open their packs via limited. Honestly there's no reason they couldn't still have the pack opening experience in regular draft too, so I just don't know that this is a waste of time no matter how a player chooses to open their packs.

mach
02-27-2014, 08:35 PM
I actually agree with a lot of the points you've shared in this thread Mach, perhaps not as strongly as you but I'm certainly not going to argue them, but this one I have to STRONGLY disagree with. I think, as Corey himself illustrated in his blog, pack opening is one of THE single most memorable and enjoyable experiences in card games. Yet its never been even close to as enjoyable online for me as it is in real life. I think if online TCGs are truly going to compete with their real life brethern, making pack opening as amazing as absolutely possible is flat out essential, every bit as important as any other aspect of the game, and the fact that Corey realizes this while so many other online card games do not really shows just how much truth there is to his claims of being a real card game player and not some silver tongued snake oil salesman. And lets face it, it makes sense from a business perspective as well, the more I enjoy opening a pack, the more likely I'm going to be to want to open more.


That's a good point. But making pack opening memorable and enjoyable isn't just about a pretty animation. If that's the goal, make it so that cracking a pack isn't a waste of money. Make it so that whenever I do a draft I won't feel bad because I'm missing the pack opening experience.

Because for many players, no matter how pretty the animation pack opening will never be enjoyable without those things.

Lawlschool
02-27-2014, 08:41 PM
No lies, that opening animation was pretty sweet. I love how they laid out the rarity tiers, made the reveals quite exciting. Also, hooray for a spoiled card!

Avaian
02-27-2014, 08:41 PM
The number of people who feel they need to min/max everything in a game is a severe minority.

Being able to use some gold to maybe get a little bonus on your treasure chests is a great idea. It adds more connections to PvP and PvE (peanut butter & chocolate), so people can enjoy both without feeling that they are two separate games.

For the players who only want to PvP, they can easily sell their extra cards on the AH for gold or buy Gold for Platinum from players.

I love this concept because it gives players a reason to post their extra PvP cards for gold.

Lawlschool
02-27-2014, 08:49 PM
I love this concept because it gives players a reason to post their extra PvP cards for gold.

Exactly. Commons, and likely a lot of uncommons, will become pretty worthless pretty quickly, but for PvE players they will retain some value as a way to break in to the PvP aspect without spending a ton of money. If you can use Gold to boost your Treasure Chests, there's an incentive to sell Commons and Uncommons for Gold, which ends up benefiting both PvE and PvP players.

ossuary
02-27-2014, 09:34 PM
The art is very well done, but it's also a bit objectifying in its current form. My wife's initial reaction: "Why are cards flying out of that boob cube?" (I claim all rights and royalties on the term "boob cube," by the way). They're even textured to look 3D. That's a bit much, IMO. :p

The concept as a whole is very interesting and exciting (lady luck, and all that - I especially love the night sky as her hair, fantastic visual), but I could honestly do with less blatant objectification. I want to pop boners for awesome cards, not cheap and tawdry imagery. More people than 17 year old boys play video games now.

We previously had a fairly lengthy conversation about females in artwork as it related to Hex here: http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=30079 - Shaq, Loregoyle, and maybe some others chimed in on the matter.

Xenavire
02-27-2014, 09:46 PM
The art is very well done, but it's also a bit objectifying in its current form. My wife's initial reaction: "Why are cards flying out of that boob cube?" (I claim all rights and royalties on the term "boob cube," by the way). They're even textured to look 3D. That's a bit much, IMO. :p

The concept as a whole is very interesting and exciting (lady luck, and all that - I especially love the night sky as her hair, fantastic visual), but I could honestly do with less blatant objectification. I want to pop boners for awesome cards, not cheap and tawdry imagery. More people than 17 year old boys play video games now.

We previously had a fairly lengthy conversation about females in artwork as it related to Hex here: http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=30079 - Shaq, Loregoyle, and maybe some others chimed in on the matter.

You were looking at the woman? Jeesus, I was looking at Bird of Plenty. I am one sad 24 year old.

Rakshall
02-27-2014, 09:59 PM
You ignore the psychology of these players. You may consider it optional, but they won't.
You would prefer to remove chest upgrades? I really don't get it - chest will mostly award PVE stuff (mercenaries, pve cards, gear, etc). Bonus PVP packs will be rare, probably very rare and its really the only thing that hardcore PVP player really needs from chests. Is it really so horrible that You will miss one pack per month from upgraded chest? If You really think it will be essential and optimal to use one-armed bandit for chest upgrades You will be able to acquire gold by selling excess PVP cards. Also keep in mind that it should be possible to play PVE stuff while waiting for queue or next tournament round (if you won't play in two events at one time) - PVE match should save its state when player is pulled to PVP game.


Options are fine. If they really want to spend time and money on something that most players will probably never see, that's their call.
However, given how far behind schedule Hex is and given how many things which are essential for beta still need to be done, spending time on something like this right now means they aren't prioritizing properly.
Work for opening experience is mostly 3D art and importing it into the game engine. Its probably mostly done by people who don't do things that are mostly needed ATM - tournaments fixes, card implementation or creation of proper PVE AI.

Aradon
02-27-2014, 10:01 PM
Bird o Plenty is no Swans of Bryn Argoll, unfortunately. Still, I'm sure someone will find a use for it. Six is quite a bit, though.

Gwaer
02-27-2014, 10:05 PM
As a 30something, I appreciated the art of the boob cube, and welcome more of it.


*edit*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i20Af5FOVmU

Daer
02-27-2014, 10:42 PM
I think the Kismet art is great. Sleeves please.

bojanglesz
02-27-2014, 10:50 PM
Tigole buckin' fitties.

mach
02-27-2014, 10:52 PM
You would prefer to remove chest upgrades?

Yes. "More stuff if you pay gold" is the same as "Less stuff if you don't pay gold." That's how this kind of mechanic works. If you offer players a chance to get more loot, you also have to reduce the amount of the initial loot to keep loot distribution at your target level.

I'd rather spend more time actually playing and less time fooling around with slot machines and selling low-value cards for gold.



Work for opening experience is mostly 3D art and importing it into the game engine. Its probably mostly done by people who don't do things that are mostly needed ATM - tournaments fixes, card implementation or creation of proper PVE AI.

There are enough different things which need to be done before beta that I'm sure whatever resources they put into this could have been put to better use.

Ju66ernaut
02-27-2014, 11:12 PM
Mach, I feel like treasure chests maybe aren't the thing you will enjoy most from this game.

I'm a big fan of the experience that was revealed today and look forward earning gold to further my experience and have it feel like my time has more value. I can't remove the fecal matter you've deposited on my breakfast cereal, but I can ask you to not add anymore to it. Please chill on the trolling. This is supposed to be a fun place for people to share their thoughts and constructive criticism. Thank you for your input.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpGJbooFq1c

Daer
02-27-2014, 11:12 PM
http://i.imgur.com/kSyMFSM.jpg

Hibbert
02-27-2014, 11:33 PM
I'd rather spend more time actually playing and less time fooling around with slot machines and selling low-value cards for gold.

The answer for you is just to sell/trade your treasure chests. You will probably be able to sell "fresh" chests(ones that can still be upgraded via gold/spins) for more than the typical value of the contents of that chest. You might end up selling a treasure chest that contains a ton of value, but if you sell every chest you come across, I almost guarantee you will be ahead in the long run vs. someone that spends the time/effort/money to use the maximum amount of gold on every chest they open.

I understand how you might wish this extra value was just baked into the pack itself, rather than having to mess with selling the chests individually. But if you can't see how this system might get more sales than a flat value system, you don't understand the mindset of a TCG player or an MMO player.

hammer
02-27-2014, 11:40 PM
Wheels of Fate = Pure Genius

Pack opening is better than I ever imagined during the kickstarter, at this stage I had only seen the bland opening in Magic Online. However, when I witnessed the hearthstone pack opening I hoped that Hex would implement something visual and exciting to add to the tension of opening a pack. I really like the videos and hope that some kind of audio is added to the experience, I love when hearthstone shouts "Goooooldeen Legeendaaaarrrrrry" it just kind of adds to that special moment of opening the best cards :D

Chocmaw
02-28-2014, 12:41 AM
I want to be the Omen on Kismet's shoulder... (love the name, it means "Fate" in Hindi/Farsi/Urdu, though we pronounce it "Kis-muth")

Tyler James, you the man.

That aside... Wow! The pack opening experience looks so much fun and the Wheels of Fate are a brilliant freebie. Thanks Cory!

Can't wait to open some packs :)

Cheers

GhundiPI
02-28-2014, 12:42 AM
The pack and treasure chest opening experience is a great idea and I see the value in the way it is being done. But one thing I would like to see some more discussion on, is the way Kismet is represented on what has already been named the 'boob cube'.

With all respect to the artists, but is there really a necessity to make the entire experience so 'boob centric'? I found it not tasteful and by just watching the video I found that it already detracted greatly from the experience overall. Don't get me wrong, I really like the full art of Kismet. But this way, especially on where the tray slides out of the cube, it is actually demeaning to women and will receive flak quite quickly if released this way.

Also on an aesthetics level (though note that I am not a graphical artist, so my idea of aesthetics will probably be different), it also causes the cube/device to be too elongated, essentially again making the graphic of Kismet too much the focus point of the experience. My suggestion would be to remove the entire section with Kismet('s boobs) on it, so that the tray opens directly below the 'slot machine'. Then incorporate the full art of Kistmet in the background (possibly to the left?), slightly faded out. This way she will still be represented in the experience, but not made the focal point. And we get to enjoy the full art every time...

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 12:59 AM
In all seriousness. I very much disagree about the art being demeaning to women. That is much less revealing that probably the vast majority of actual statuary depicting women that has ever been made. Is it entirely necessary... Probably not, is it offensive to even 5% of the population? I very much doubt it when examined in a vacuum. The issue is solely resting on the fact that many f2p games have hypersexualized female art to attract people to their game. The difference is that this actually has story elements, it's a part of the overall lore of the setting, and it's interesting to look at. Should the other side be a strapping dude, and allow people to choose which one they look at when they open packs... Maybe? Let lady luck swap genders depending on personal preference if you want, but don't try to pretend that what they have on that box is in any way demeaning.

HerrLiljegren
02-28-2014, 01:13 AM
The pack and treasure chest opening experience is a great idea and I see the value in the way it is being done. But one thing I would like to see some more discussion on, is the way Kismet is represented on what has already been named the 'boob cube'.

With all respect to the artists, but is there really a necessity to make the entire experience so 'boob centric'? I found it not tasteful and by just watching the video I found that it already detracted greatly from the experience overall. Don't get me wrong, I really like the full art of Kismet. But this way, especially on where the tray slides out of the cube, it is actually demeaning to women and will receive flak quite quickly if released this way.

Also on an aesthetics level (though note that I am not a graphical artist, so my idea of aesthetics will probably be different), it also causes the cube/device to be too elongated, essentially again making the graphic of Kismet too much the focus point of the experience. My suggestion would be to remove the entire section with Kismet('s boobs) on it, so that the tray opens directly below the 'slot machine'. Then incorporate the full art of Kistmet in the background (possibly to the left?), slightly faded out. This way she will still be represented in the experience, but not made the focal point. And we get to enjoy the full art every time...


I agree with you 100%, the Kismet art just made the experience feel tacky in my opinion.

chromus
02-28-2014, 01:30 AM
Not only is the art great but it also fits what I think the cube is trying to accomplish: Tempt you to open more packs and gamble your gold for better loot. What better representation of "temptation" than a cold-blooded voluptuous goddess of luck. Brilliant.

Parzival
02-28-2014, 01:39 AM
Err is it just me or has the image of Kismet disappeared from the blog?

Just want to say that I think it's great, love voluptuous women, in no way do I find it offensive or tacky.

Great piece of art, can't wait for more.

GhundiPI
02-28-2014, 01:40 AM
In all seriousness. I very much disagree about the art being demeaning to women. .<snip> but don't try to pretend that what they have on that box is in any way demeaning.

It isn't the art in itself , it is the art and how it is used in combination with how the reward is presented. Being a primal of luck has nothing to do with rewards coming out of her boobs, to put it bluntly.

There are a lot more tasteful ways to represent the mechanic of rewarding in combination with the art of Kismet.

Kroan
02-28-2014, 02:15 AM
Oh god. I can't believe we have so many sensitive souls among us. From the netherlands even. You really need to get out a bit more. I watched it together with my wife and we both found it looking very awesome. Hats off to the artist for an awesome experience! It very much makes me think of ancient art, which I absolutely adore

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Jean-Jacques_Caffieri_-_Portrait_bust_of_a_young_woman_CPLH_1927.211.JPG

I'm also very excited about the whole slot machine for sleeves and mecernaries. I don't get where mech is coming from at all. Just like on MTGO a pack (or in this case chest) is more worth closed and you should sell it rather than throwing it in a slot machine. You might get a few platina for it even, resulting in you playing in more events. How is that a bad thing? Some people can't be pleased I'm afraid

Rapkannibale
02-28-2014, 02:22 AM
Additionally, if I'm spending real money to buy a pack it doesn't feel good to also have to spend in-game currency to get full value from my purchase. Perhaps we could have a distinction between packs bought from the store, which would come with a treasure chest of a quality as though the max amount of gold has already been spent on it, and prize packs, which would have the normal chest.


I am sorry but if you don't think you are already getting enough value out of the basic contents of a pack you need to take a look at the competition. Hex by far provides the most value I have seen in a single pack of cards (and I have played many TCGs).

Magic Online packs cost 4 bucks and come with 15 cards, thats it. Hearthstone packs cost 2 bucks and come with 5 cards. Thats it.

For 2 bucks in Hex you get all the cards, plus a treasure chest with some extra stuff and a chance for getting a primal pack instead of the regular pack. It is always the same, when developers offer could "extras" or "optional" content people feel entitled to have all of it for the base price.

Ask yourself this, if Hex had never offered these additional things. Would you not have been happy with a 15 card pack for 2 bucks?

Personally I think this is a great system and it is a good thing that it ties PvE and PvP together.

Well done!

YourOpponent
02-28-2014, 02:26 AM
Bird of Plenty + Ragefire = Opponent screaming for a nerf on the forums even at a cost of 6.

GhundiPI
02-28-2014, 02:51 AM
Oh god. I can't believe we have so many sensitive souls among us. From the netherlands even. You really need to get out a bit more.

Now that is an unexpected reply :rolleyes: Luckily this has nothing to do with my personal sensitivity (which, if you've known me personally, would have made you laugh at such an reply), nor my need for fresh air.



It very much makes me think of ancient art, which I absolutely adore

That makes two of us who enjoy ancient art! Though I hope you have noticed that in general all artists up until the late 19th century depicted women and female nudity (yes, I know there isn't any nudity in the 'boob cube') in mostly a respectful and natural way. With of course the artistic exceptions like the 'Venus of Willendorf' (which has a theorized reason for its depiction) and its likes.

Now times and artistic expressions have changed of course, which is why I do appreciate and enjoy the full art of Kismet, though that still does not change my reasoning from the previous posts. And I can fully accept that it may be just an opinion of a few. But in my opinion it is a shame that with such great art everywhere in the game, that this part should be so jarring in comparison. Especially since there are so many other great ways to incorporate the art without the overt implications...

Kroan
02-28-2014, 03:04 AM
Luckily this has nothing to do with my personal sensitivity (which, if you've known me personally, would have made you laugh at such an reply), nor my need for fresh air.
Just a friendly jab at a fellow countryman, mind you ;)

I re-watched the whole video's now several times, but I still can't possibly get it into my mind how somebody could find this distasteful. Maybe my mind is not dirty enough for it :P

Edit: For some reason I missed the art of Kismet itself between both video's. (I guess it didn't finish loading, i'm on a slower work connection). I can see that some people might find this a bit to much in the realm of tacky rather then artful. I have no problems with the art myself though.

GhundiPI
02-28-2014, 03:21 AM
Just a friendly jab at a fellow countryman, mind you ;)

I re-watched the whole video's now several times, but I still can't possibly get it into my mind how somebody could find this distasteful. Maybe my mind is not dirty enough for it :P

No offence taken! And you know, if the reward tray would be situated above the depiction of Kismet, it would have been a lot less jarring (though I would still find the object to be too high aesthetically, but that is probably just me). But if I have gotten the, possibly wrong, impressions of the reward coming from her bosom, I'm sure I will not be the only one.

Still, this is just my opinion. And I will of course enjoy the game as much as always if it stays this way.

Kroan
02-28-2014, 03:25 AM
I added this part to my post at the same time when you posted, so;


For some reason I missed the art of Kismet itself between both video's. (I guess it didn't finish loading, i'm on a slower work connection). I can see that some people might find this a bit to much in the realm of tacky rather then artful. I have no problems with the art myself though.

GhundiPI
02-28-2014, 04:10 AM
I added this part to my post at the same time when you posted, so;

Funny thing is, is that I actually do like the full art of Kismet a lot! And as I pointed out in my first post is that I would love to see that incorporated in the background of the pack opening experience for example. It is the smaller art on the altar that I'm talking about :)

Kroan
02-28-2014, 04:44 AM
Really? Hmmm... Very curious haha

jimmywolf
02-28-2014, 06:06 AM
just wanted chime in my opinion i enjoyed the art an don't think it tasteless, i also liked how the box animation was done.

it strange the world loves violence,killing,drinking but show a half naked women all bets are off, your corrupting are youth an teaching them bad things!

the Romans loved displaying naked men as art but a video game show a women like that, not even showing anything an it perverse an disrespectful to women?

i prefer they keep pushing things like this not just the women part, all mature art. kids will grow up an are going see lot worse. people easily offend are going find another item too advocate why it sexist,wrong,sacrilegious,etc,etc,etc.




TLDR

loved the videos don't change anything

Kroan
02-28-2014, 06:17 AM
It's not so much that kids shouldn't see naked woman, more that a) it puts woman in a wrong light (as an object rather than a person) and b) it puts a wrong example for younger woman on how a woman should look in the perfect world. Both these arguments are valid arguments I feel, allthough I don't think they apply to the ingame representation.

MoikPEI
02-28-2014, 06:19 AM
re; boob cube
There's an issue of Dragon magazine where Paizo digs into a market problem they found from having consistently boob-cubey covers.
Women may not be offended, but when they see boob-cubing they assume the product is 'for guys' and then ignore it.
Yes, that statement doesn't apply to all women. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

It's either the issue with the mummified boob cube or the spiderweb boob cube. It's in the Letters to the Editor part.

[Edit: Actually, I remember it was in response to a letter about the spiderweb boob cube. So some issues a few after that.]

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 06:23 AM
Well, lets face it, there will be an army of prudes waiting to attack over the slightest amount of sexual content in video games, because they are too immature to just let others enjoy themselves.

However, I don't think this is a particularly bad offender on the 'OMG boobies!' scale. Me, my friend, and my girlfriend all watched the video and none of us even commented on any breasts. And my girlfriend tends to be fairly vocal when she finds something too revealing or sexualised.

So in my eyes, I think it could be more subtle (even though I didn't notice it, others obviously have) but lets not bend over backwards and rewrite the lore over the chance of immature people complaining. I mean, this game is still PG at this point, even though children probably shouldn't be playing it.

I had a though about the primal packs though... Do they all wait to be manually flipped, with glows and all? Because that would be pretty epic and full of tense excitement. Although not having glows would make it even more intense.

Jinxies
02-28-2014, 06:52 AM
I had to go back and watch the video again to notice the boobs I was too mesmerized by the cards >.<'

ossuary
02-28-2014, 07:22 AM
Xenavire (and a few others in this thread), I'm sorry, but YOU don't get to decide whether or not a sexually-charged image is offensive or not, because you are not the group being represented by it. It's exactly the same as a panel of old white men meeting in Washington to talk about women's rights or sexual health. You're not qualified to make that call.

The image IS objectifying. It IS exploitative. These are not opinions, they are facts. The only opinion is whether or not you, personally, are offended by it. But you DON'T get to say it's not offensive at all, only whether or not YOU are offended by it. And whether or not YOU are offended isn't relevant, because you're not a member of the group on display. Just like two white guys can't decide between themselves that it's not racist to call a black person a thug. Or a bully can't take away the victim's right to be hurt and offended by saying he was "just joking." This is how offensiveness works - anyone can decide that something IS offensive, but only the target can decide that it's NOT.

As I said in my original post, I enjoy the idea behind the art in question, and most of it looks great. I'm not being a prude about this, I'm just pointing out the undeniable fact that it's sexualized imagery, and the conclusion (or supposition, if you prefer) that that is going to turn some people off. You can be suggestive without being explicit, and that is something that more people can enjoy. I'd much rather be associated with a product that understands this, and isn't just trying to titillate the teens (whether this is their specific intent or not, it will be perceived that way by many, and the association will hurt the reputation of Hex). I'd love to hear from CZE on this, especially given Loregoyle's and a few others' comments in that other thread I linked to.

Edit: the royalties on "boob cube" are going to make me rich. :p

Hatts
02-28-2014, 07:27 AM
Oh god. I can't believe we have so many sensitive souls among us. From the netherlands even. You really need to get out a bit more. I watched it together with my wife and we both found it looking very awesome. Hats off to the artist for an awesome experience! It very much makes me think of ancient art, which I absolutely adore


IMHO I think you're comparing a person to a barbie doll, but to each his own...

Svenn
02-28-2014, 07:32 AM
I just want to know where I can get a physical Hex booster pack like the one in that picture.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 07:44 AM
I assume CZE did some mockup packs to go along with their paper cards they use for testing. They do paper tests of drafts and sealed, after all, so it makes sense to also have fake packs to open.

I bet those will be really valuable someday, if they even let any of them out into the wild instead of keeping them 100% internal. :)

Avaian
02-28-2014, 07:47 AM
Humans confuse me.

There is all this complaining/arguing/disagreeing about one character in the Hex universe. If this was a constant occurrence throughout the game, there would be more to complain about but this is one example.

The real world has lifeforms of all shapes and sizes. Why can Hex not have the same thing?

Just because Kismet, Goddess of Luck is a voluptuous women, and is the perfect icon for the pack opening, which is a concept of luck the people seem to complain.

I highly doubt they designed Kismet just for the pack opening. Kismet's design has probably been complete for months.

I feel that instead of just having a headshot of Kismet on the pedestal, they should have her entire profile, but the entire design is a WIP so they could have other concepts in the works.

I suggest people to add their opinions about how the pack opening pedestal could look better, and not just complain.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 07:59 AM
I am not "just complaining." If you read my previous posts, I feel I've been very constructive, and have said several aspects of the concept I quite like. The concept for Kismet as a character reminds be very much of the imagery for Fate and especially The Lady from the Discworld novels (it's the eyes... Gods can never change their eyes). I love that. But there's no reason it can't be represented more tastefully than it currently is.

The Wheel of Fate and gambling aspect, I am totally in favor of. I think it's a fun idea, and it looks great, minus the boob cube factor.

YourOpponent
02-28-2014, 08:18 AM
I get why some of the women find this to be offensive...me I'm a guy so I can understand how they would find my thoughts irrelevant. So I asked my mom (a highly conservative person) what she thought about the video (after explaining the lore of course) and she only mentioned that her boobs are slightly too large, but overall she found the experience to be like a woman nurturing people with her breasts.

From a male perspective over things like this I am generally ok with Greek art and so forth where a nude male is depicted...whether they are muscular or not...and so forth, but I draw the line if they are doing something sexual. Personally I see nothing sexual about this.

Now if it was something like the tray popping out of her NECK or something like that then I could understand why women are getting upset....because then that could be taken as something aggressive towards women...since it would look like decapitation, but I just don't see how something that hardly shows cleavage from a voluptuous woman can be so offensive...when the full body figure of her (or with it showing a tray coming out just under her breasts) would be more offensive.

Kroan
02-28-2014, 08:30 AM
IMHO I think you're comparing a person to a barbie doll, but to each his own...

Wait what. What are you even saying :P Seriously.

Pezzle
02-28-2014, 08:41 AM
I am hoping for a couple of options with pack opening. Go ahead and include a rip sound, but the animation is going to be a quick irritation to people like me.

Open pack, display contents
Open x packs, display contents

The process can auto sort by color/rarity or whatever, just be clean and unobtrusive. If people want to enjoy the animated sequence let them. Please include options with less animation. I do not need a cube or cards flying around or explosions to keep me interested.

bojanglesz
02-28-2014, 08:42 AM
I wish they'd just gone all the way: let her cleavage be the coin slot.

Khazrakh
02-28-2014, 08:44 AM
In all honesty - I didn't even notice the "boobs" as we seem to have agreed to call them.
So I went back to watch the video, expecting to see some full flashed naked boobs and what did I find? Nothing, nothing what so ever. There is a woman on the box and you can tell that she is a woman because she has, well, boobs. They are not naked, they are not unnaturally large, hell they are not even fully shown. How can anybody feel offended by that image? I'm really sorry, but I just dont get it - at all!

Regarding the acutal topic - fantastic idea, once more illustrating why I put so much faith into Hex and CZE.

Regarding the "hardcore PvP crowd". If you want to min/max and only play PvP it will always be your best bet to just sell everything you get hold on for plat and use that to pay for your next Draft/Sealed. You always pay a price to gamble so if you want to min/max never ever gamble...

Hatts
02-28-2014, 08:49 AM
Wait what. What are you even saying :P Seriously.

The statue you linked looks like a real person. Kismet has all the characteristics of a barbie doll. Ridiculous proportions, Blank face, and no nipples.

Daer
02-28-2014, 09:00 AM
I am hoping for a couple of options with pack opening. Go ahead and include a rip sound, but the animation is going to be a quick irritation to people like me.

Open pack, display contents
Open x packs, display contents

The process can auto sort by color/rarity or whatever, just be clean and unobtrusive. If people want to enjoy the animated sequence let them. Please include options with less animation. I do not need a cube or cards flying around or explosions to keep me interested.

There is an Open All button which you can see in the video.

Pezzle
02-28-2014, 09:06 AM
Yes, but does that force you to watch the sequence over and over? Is all packs ALL packs? If I only want to open 5 packs do I have to watch that animation 5 times? Give us a no animation option please.

tautologico
02-28-2014, 09:06 AM
I do think it's objectifying and CZE should consider changing it. The key idea here is to be inclusive: as someone said, this kind of aesthetics give off a "guys only" vibe to the game, which should not be the goal for CZE. I remember in my time playing WoW that most players were men, but there was a good number of women playing too. I don't think CZE want to establish the game as "mens-only", even if the majority of players end up being men.

An argument like "but people have always depicted nude women" is missing the point at least twice: 1) it's not that it shows breasts but the placement and the whole aesthetics which give off a tacky vibe 2) sexism is ages-old, it does not mean we should continue doing it; it's like someone in the past saying "but black people have been slaves for more than a century, why should we stop now?". Tradition by itself does not make things right.

Niedar
02-28-2014, 09:08 AM
Don't feel like reading this entire thread but seems many saying the same thing, I don't think the ridiculous huge boobs are needed.

Kroan
02-28-2014, 09:10 AM
The statue you linked looks like a real person. Kismet has all the characteristics of a barbie doll. Ridiculous proportions, Blank face, and no nipples.

As I said, I was referring to the acutal in game presentation which is only a statue in the game. I didn't see the art until later :) I also feel kind of a aggressive vibe coming towards me from you. Is that necessary? Maybe I am imagining things...

ossuary
02-28-2014, 09:15 AM
Yes, but does that force you to watch the sequence over and over? Is all packs ALL packs? If I only want to open 5 packs do I have to watch that animation 5 times? Give us a no animation option please.

They have said previously there will be "open all" and "open X" options that will just give you the cards quickly, and dump the treasure chests into your inventory. You can bypass the animations if you just want the cards now. :)

Thrawn
02-28-2014, 09:15 AM
The statue you linked looks like a real person. Kismet has all the characteristics of a barbie doll. Ridiculous proportions, Blank face, and no nipples.

It's almost like she's not human or something, weird.

I for one am very offended by the immature and offensive objectification of the female form in my TCGMMO and will be asking for a full Kickstarter refund after I contact the ASPCA and the NCAA to file complaints.

Pezzle
02-28-2014, 09:17 AM
Ah, that is what I get for not paying attention to the *wherever that was said*. Thank you.

mudkip
02-28-2014, 09:21 AM
My turn!

I get the style they're going for, it's kind of a pirate ship figure head or the statue of Aphrodite. The artists did a good job, I like it!
Someone mentioned before the perspective is weird and it looks awkward dragging the pack to the top of the screen. IMO, the process should start with the camera looking down on the pot, or at least heavily tilted, so the centre of the screen is a blue glowing circle, then it pans down after you drop the pack to do the animation.
I get that people are saying CZE should be PC, as that would pull in the wider audience. However, you will never please anyone and I personally like seeing an auteur do their thing - even if it is provocative.
Out of context, people won't "get" Kismet. I like letting pieces of the lore/PvE into more PvP focused stuff, but for a lot of people it will be like being in a group where everyone is talking with in-jokes. I think my previous suggestion of changing the perspective would improve this. I think alienating the PvP crowd is a greater danger to Hex than boobs.
I like how the pack opening RNG has been personified. I look forward to pulling an Inferno as my rare and yelling "Fuck you, Kismet!"

Ju66ernaut
02-28-2014, 09:27 AM
It's almost like she's not human or something, weird.

I for one am very offended by the immature and offensive objectification of the female form in my TCGMMO and will be asking for a full Kickstarter refund after I contact the ASPCA and the NCAA to file complaints.

I don't think the National Collegiate Athletic Association and American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals will lend you much support. But thank you for sharing your opinion.

Pezzle
02-28-2014, 09:32 AM
Then he can take his case to the RIAA or Americans for Prosperity or the MPAA!

fido_one
02-28-2014, 09:34 AM
This


My wife's initial reaction: "Why are cards flying out of that boob cube?" (I claim all rights and royalties on the term "boob cube," by the way). They're even textured to look 3D. That's a bit much, IMO. :p


and this


You would prefer to remove chest upgrades? I really don't get it - chest will mostly award PVE stuff (mercenaries, pve cards, gear, etc).

Now have me completely turned around - don't know what we are talking about anymore.

Either way,though, I like the topic.

Lawlschool
02-28-2014, 09:36 AM
All talk of objectification aside, there has to be a better way to incorporate Kismet than the Shadow-Hand-Bra that's going on right now.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 09:40 AM
It's almost like she's not human or something, weird.

I for one am very offended by the immature and offensive objectification of the female form in my TCGMMO and will be asking for a full Kickstarter refund after I contact the ASPCA and the NCAA to file complaints.

This kind of dismissiveness by someone who is not the subject is a perfect example of why objectification and marginalization are such pervasive problems.

Patton Oswalt wrote a fantastic article about a very similar subject recently, in which he talked about the extremely common fallacy where someone concludes that because THEY are not offended by something, it must not be offensive.

primer
02-28-2014, 09:45 AM
So just yesterday we went to a massive shopping centre in Manchester, England.. some of you may know it. In this place there's about a half mile run of marble sculptures in all states of dress male and female. There are kids running around, men and women of all ages and no one complaining that you can see breasts etc.

How the hell can a pair of covered boobs be 'objectifying and exploitative'(ossuary), who exactly is it exploiting? and if this is the case any place with a night life on a Friday or Saturday night is full of women exploiting themselves...

Women have breasts, the god of luck has breasts. Get over it.

Daer
02-28-2014, 09:54 AM
This is why we can't have nice things.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 09:55 AM
So just yesterday we went to a massive shopping centre in Manchester, England.. some of you may know it. In this place there's about a half mile run of marble sculptures in all states of dress male and female. There are kids running around, men and women of all ages and no one complaining that you can see breasts etc.

How the hell can a pair of covered boobs be 'objectifying and exploitative'(ossuary), who exactly is it exploiting? and if this is the case any place with a night life on a Friday or Saturday night is full of women exploiting themselves...

Women have breasts, the god of luck has breasts. Get over it.

"I'm not offended, so it's not offensive." Get over YOURSELF.

mudkip
02-28-2014, 09:59 AM
England has Page 3 girls. Seeing boobs is pretty normal there ;)

primer
02-28-2014, 10:00 AM
"I'm not offended, so it's not offensive." Get over YOURSELF.

I never said you were offended, I was telling the general population to get over the fact women have breasts. My question to you was 'who is this image exploiting?'

ossuary
02-28-2014, 10:02 AM
It is using a sexually-charged image of a woman's anatomy intentionally to try to entice men/boys to be more into it. That is the very definition of exploitative.

I never said *I* was offended either. I said it is offensive. Those are two very different statements.

Khazrakh
02-28-2014, 10:02 AM
I still can't believe we even discuss this topic. Cory shows us a really cool feature with great art and all we talk about is if Kismets boobs are too big or anything?
Come on guys - Kismet is perfectly fine, she's a female god so yes, she obviously has boobs alright...

primer
02-28-2014, 10:03 AM
It is using a sexually-charged image of a woman's anatomy intentionally to try to entice men/boys to be more into it. That is the very definition of exploitative.

So it is exploiting men into buying into the game?

Malakili
02-28-2014, 10:07 AM
Ok, serious question. Are we only allowed to open 1 or open all? Because some of us have a LOT of packs coming, and I don't want to open them one at a time, and I certainly don't want to open all of them either (I would like to save quite a few for drafting).

fido_one
02-28-2014, 10:07 AM
Honestly,

This has gotten ridiculous, by saying 'this isn't about the breasts on the art, it's about opening packs' we've made this discussion completely about the breasts instead of the pack opening. We're all big kids here, I think we can look at what CZE is doing and know that they weren't going for a cheap shot of exploitation and more for world-building. For those that have difficulty looking beyond what CZE intended or didn't intend, errr, don't open packs?

Ossuary, I frequently agree with what you write, and I agree of the spirit of what you are saying here, but I also agree with what Primer is saying which is 'this exists everywhere, and we'll freeze as a society if we make it a big deal.' It would be a more complex matter if CZE was going for an exploitative angle here, which we all know they are not - as such there are more egregious things to focus this sort of dialogue on.

Not that I'm crazy enough to think this will end the discussion, it's just that I find this one extra pointless. Which is saying A LOT as, you know, we're on a forum on the Internet which sets the bar pretty god-damn low on pointless conversation.

Could we get back on track with discussing the feature of opening HEX packs?

primer
02-28-2014, 10:09 AM
Ok, serious question. Are we only allowed to open 1 or open all? Because some of us have a LOT of packs coming, and I don't want to open them one at a time, and I certainly don't want to open all of them either (I would like to save quite a few for drafting).

From Cory:
If this all seems like a bit much and you’re worried that opening packs is going to take too long, we have you covered. We have also built a system for opening multiple packs at once.

So you probably put the number in you want to quick open and it does it.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 10:14 AM
I agree about the nearly naked chest on Kismet; it doesn't seem in the best of taste. Though it does give an interesting twist to "chest upgrades" (seems fido already found that joke, dang). (I'd like to also highlight post 47 on this subject.)

EDIT: Actually, the in-blog art is the only one I find problematic. The one in the videos is dressed differently or maybe is just cropped high enough to keep it reasonable. I could see moving the crop on the art just a tad higher possibly...


The limited-rolls feature on the chests means there's now another thing for the AH to handle in its search engine. Regardless of whether it's limited by number of rolls or by hitting the "unlucky" slots on the wheel (see Refugee's analysis quoted below), there's now another feature to track and have searchable. A buyer will want to know if a chest still has rolls left on it or not. I'd personally hope it's an open ended system so that the only AH change would be a flag for "can/can't roll" as opposed to "has X rolls remaining".


Let's try and translate the rewards! (I think I have a pretty good start)

I believe the round symbol (if you look closely it seems to have arrows encircling it) means effectively "spin". The symbol often found to the left of it is a little pile of gold and means roughly "pay" thus the paired symbols often found to the right mean "pay to spin again".

Thus from top to bottom the rewards are:

Nothing (pay to spin again)
Free spin
Level Chest and game over (There is no pay to spin again symbol)
Equipment reward: weapon (pay to spin again)
Equipment reward: armor (pay to spin again)
Level Chest (pay to spin again)
Mercenary (pay to spin again)
Cards of some sort (pay to spin again)
Cards of some sort (pay to spin again)
Level chest TWICE (pay to spin again)
Super awesome card of some sort. Possibly a primal pack? (pay to spin again)

Thoughts on specifics of what those card packs might be?


Upon a bit of further reflection: first set of cards are likely sleeves. Second pack of cards is a normal pack. Final pack of cards is indeed primal. Just guesses of course but makes sense from the symbols.


Anyone else want to wildly speculate on the symbology?


EDIT2:
This is an AMAZING gold sink idea. Love it!

ossuary
02-28-2014, 10:16 AM
Honestly,

This has gotten ridiculous, by saying 'this isn't about the breasts on the art, it's about opening packs' we've made this discussion completely about the breasts instead of the pack opening. We're all big kids here, I think we can look at what CZE is doing and know that they weren't going for a cheap shot of exploitation and more for world-building. For those that have difficulty looking beyond what CZE intended or didn't intend, errr, don't open packs?

Ossuary, I frequently agree with what you write, and I agree of the spirit of what you are saying here, but I also agree with what Primer is saying which is 'this exists everywhere, and we'll freeze as a society if we make it a big deal.' It would be a more complex matter if CZE was going for an exploitative angle here, which we all know they are not - as such there are more egregious things to focus this sort of dialogue on.

Not that I'm crazy enough to think this will end the discussion, it's just that I find this one extra pointless. Which is saying A LOT as, you know, we're on a forum on the Internet which sets the bar pretty god-damn low on pointless conversation.

Could we get back on track with discussion the feature of opening HEX packs?

I hear what you're saying, and honestly I'm not trying to make a "big deal" out of it. It's not a huge deal, and CZE is certainly GENERALLY better about this than a lot of other companies, but it's still a matter of concern. I happen to take issue with dismissiveness in general, as I've had a pretty serious bullying scenario in my past. It's a touchy subject for a lot of people, and having people who are not victims, targets, or subjects themselves decide amongst themselves that something ISN'T offensive is part of why these problems are so hard to combat. Just because an issue is prevalent or common doesn't make it any more okay. Racism used to be common. Sexism still is. Can we agree that it would be better if they weren't?

As I've said repeatedly, I like the artwork in general, and I am extremely interested in the lore and concept of luck primal-ized. I would just like to see it handled more elegantly and with more subtlety than it is in the current form. Suggestive is fine (and nice!), but it doesn't have to be tawdry to be attractive, or artistic. I'm talking about vibe, and you want to give off the right kind. This current iteration isn't, in my opinion, what they should be going for.

Freebird_Falcon
02-28-2014, 10:16 AM
DUDE. So flippin' cool. I don't think I've ever been excited to open a digital card pack before.

primer
02-28-2014, 10:17 AM
Each roll should be a separate event regardless of whether that pack has had x amount of rolls already. So on the AH I'd imagine you'd just see if the pack can or can't be roll on.

Slish
02-28-2014, 10:19 AM
Wow, this thread seems to have exploded about this "boobcube" discussion.

I just wanted to state my opinion as well:
The art in the statue (in the videos), I didnt even noticed until I read this discussion. However I must say, the picture in the blog (the one with almost naked boobs) is a bit too much in my opinion. I was surprised as well, and Im quite liberal person but I can imagine it might be a bit 'too much' for quite some people..

Malakili
02-28-2014, 10:23 AM
I was surprised as well, and Im quite liberal person but I can imagine it might be a bit 'too much' for quite some people..

The problem isn't "boobs" per se, the problem is the cartoonish ridiculous objectification of boobs for no particular reason other than to market to teenage boys. Nudity doesn't bother me, but this kind of thing needs to be pointed out as ridiculous. They probably won't change it, I have no illusion that they will, but it needs to be said that it's unrealistic, ridiculous, and at least bordering on offensive.

Svenn
02-28-2014, 10:25 AM
The problem isn't "boobs" per se, the problem is the cartoonish ridiculous objectification of boobs for no particular reason other than to market to teenage boys. Nudity doesn't bother me, but this kind of thing needs to be pointed out as ridiculous. They probably won't change it, I have no illusion that they will, but it needs to be said that it's unrealistic, ridiculous, and at least bordering on offensive.

This about sums it up. I have no problem with nudity, but this does feel unnecessary and exaggerated. It feels like the kind of thing specifically marketed to teenage boys.

primer
02-28-2014, 10:26 AM
The problem isn't "boobs" per se, the problem is the cartoonish ridiculous objectification of boobs for no particular reason other than to market to teenage boys. Nudity doesn't bother me, but this kind of thing needs to be pointed out as ridiculous. They probably won't change it, I have no illusion that they will, but it needs to be said that it's unrealistic, ridiculous, and at least bordering on offensive.

Id say they aren't that unrealistic.. they must have implants on Entrath. And if your talking realism, she has stars for hair and a eye on her forehead.

Raith
02-28-2014, 10:26 AM
The animations look great. You can't cater to everyone with the art style and graphics, so at some point you have to pick an audience. Trying to please everyone is a certain path to pleasing no one.

And a fun, optional gold sink to improve chests sounds awesome. It seems like a great idea to get some cross selling between PvE and PvP players.

Mr.Funsocks
02-28-2014, 10:27 AM
Seriously, can we just give Kismet some clothes? I get that the artist you hired still has prepubescent boy fantasies, but he's actually a GOOD artist behind it all, can you just reign him in a bit?

primer
02-28-2014, 10:28 AM
Seriously, can we just give Kismet some clothes? I get that the artist you hired still has prepubescent boy fantasies, but he's actually a GOOD artist behind it all, can you just reign him in a bit?

She has clothes....

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 10:28 AM
It's a box, made by someone in the setting, potentially an ancient worshiper of kismet, how is this any different than looking at a statue created by an ancient sculptor and trying to censor it because it's too vulgar, from a lore standpoint? They obviously took that angle as inspiration for the art. Except they've toned it down and made it more PC, by having absolutely no nudity, and not even showing her entire chest on the cube. Ossuary, I understand your bullying sentiment on a very deep level, but you're absolutely wrong about not bullied being able to see the situation, if you weren't we'd still have slavery in the USA. Eventually that panel of white men got around to the right answer. This art is no worse than any billboard for any women's magazine, or even magazine cover. Is that a place to call out the misrepresentation of women? Yes it is. Here, in the current climate of society, this is nothing. And the problem that it has is honestly the over sexualization of breasts driven by prudes in the USA. In countries where naked breasts are allowed they aren't a big deal. Honestly I do a lot of work for an organization called go topless, that is responsible for challenging the laws in several states making it legal for women to bare their naked breasts anywhere a man is allowed to. Because it is discriminatory and insulting otherwise.

mudkip
02-28-2014, 10:29 AM
The more I look at it, the more I change my mind. It is objectification - the way the scene is designed for your eyes go straight to the boobs. However it can be fixed, it's purely a perspective thing: Change the camera so that it doesn't makes her chest stick out. Fix the colours - currently the boobs are contrasted (black on white) while the rest of the scene is quite soft.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 10:31 AM
It's an object. Of course it is objectification. It has taken a woman's image and made her a statue. That's literally all it can be. *sigh*

primer
02-28-2014, 10:35 AM
The more I look at it, the more I change my mind. It is objectification - the way the scene is designed for your eyes go straight to the boobs. However it can be fixed, it's purely a perspective thing: Change the camera so that it doesn't makes her chest stick out. Fix the colours - currently the boobs are contrasted (black on white) while the rest of the scene is quite soft.

In the videos its the face I notice most, that's what is bang in the middle. When the cards are dropped in the top the camera moves up and you don't see the breasts anymore. Most of my argument is for the picture in the post, which is what I can see people maybe being upset at, for me the in game footage as a total non issue.

mudkip
02-28-2014, 10:48 AM
how is this any different than looking at a statue created by an ancient sculptor

I thought this too until I had another look at it. Compare Kismet with an aphrodite marble statue:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Cnidus_Aphrodite_Altemps_Inv8619.jpg/260px-Cnidus_Aphrodite_Altemps_Inv8619.jpg



Whole body is shown, not just the bust and face
Similar smooth colour - no area is contrasted/highlighted
No stupid cleavage line that goes to the chin



I think a male equivalent would be if you had the statue of David, you painted the dick black and stood underneath it looking up.

The actual content isn't bad (nothing wrong with the human form!) but the way it's delivered feels smutty.


In the videos its the face I notice most, that's what is bang in the middle. When the cards are dropped in the top the camera moves up and you don't see the breasts anymore. Most of my argument is for the picture in the post, which is what I can see people maybe being upset at, for me the in game footage as a total non issue.

You are correct. It's the picture I'm going off.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 10:52 AM
http://www.museumstorecompany.com/Bust-of-Aphrodite-p5797.html

just because full statues were made doesn't mean just busts weren't. They're different forms of expression.

Contrast is irrelevant here. The contrast is her clothing, which she often didn't really have in statuary.

The clevage line itself is not somehow demeaning to women. It's an alternate method of presentation at worst.

bofedy
02-28-2014, 10:57 AM
So let me get this right we are all complaning about the pic not the video althou most think the point of view should be altered on the video is this right?

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 10:57 AM
The only thing that makes this even close to offensive is the location of the offering bowl that slides out. Anyone saying differently has a gigantic stick up their ass.

I guarantee you, I could show this to every woman I know (sure it is only a handful but they are all level headed) and none would be offended by this or feel like it is objectifying women. The main focus is clearly the face, and the only time you are invited to look down is when the bowl slides out. The breasts aren't sticking out (they are practically flat when compared to the contoured and well crafted facial features) and the are cut off halfway through the cleavage - I have never heard people complain that cleavage in small amounts is objectionable (except prudish/religious Americans.) If this was a fully body art with the tray coming out under her feet, there would be no complaints. If it was only a face, with the tray coming out underneath or even out of the mouth, not offensive. But under the cleavage? Alert the authorities.

I have the utmost respect for women. And I have asked the opinion of my girlfriend, and without me leading her she came to a similar conclusion - she doesn't find it offensive.

Oss, I did not enjoy being called out by the way. If you think I objectify women, you have the wrong impression of me. And saying that a man can't have an opinion on what is offensive or not is incredibly narrow minded - there are most definitely examples of males being objectified either by women or even other males. And I didn't form my overall opinion before speaking about it with my girlfriend - my opinion isn't some ignorant testosterone driven opinion.

GhundiPI
02-28-2014, 10:58 AM
This topic has indeed exploded since this morning. Just for the record, it looks like I'm the only one who finds an issue with the image on the altar, yet still finds the full image in the article to be perfectly fine. Which is fine by me and just goes to show that I probably do have a weird mind :)

Also please note that this may seem like a side discussion, but for a lot of people it actually is important, especially in a game like Hex where the art and direction has been extremely top notch so far. And it has nothing to do with being a prude (as Kroan rightly mentioned, it is hard to be a prude as a Dutchman), but it all has to do with the pretty recent acknowledgement of the gaming industry (though unfortunately still only a small part of the whole industry) that the objectification of women has gone somewhat out of control. There are lots of good articles with pro and counter arguments to be found through google for those interested.

mudkip
02-28-2014, 10:58 AM
The clevage line itself is not somehow demeaning to women. It's an alternate method of presentation at worst.
(Your other points are good so I haven't quoted them.)

I feel that the exaggerated cleavage line takes away from the mature argument of "it's just the human form" and more makes me think "LOL BIG BOOBIES"


So let me get this right we are all complaning about the pic not the video althou most think the point of view should be altered on the video is this right?

I'm at work so can only flick past things :(. I really need to rewatch it a few more times.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 11:07 AM
I suggest reading books by feminist Wendy McElroy mudkip, if your genuinely interested in the topic.

Take a look at mancubus, that is far more sexualization than this is. It's okay in small doses even for that level of sexualization to both genders. If it becomes a systemic problem and every single piece of art becomes an issue, like a number creature collecting cellphone games where every creature is some wacky sex demon or goddess, then sure. But this single image in this exact context is not an issue. I even asked my 67 year old hyper religious aunt, just for her opinion, and her problem was about the alter itself and the act of sacrificing something to witchcraft. And nothing to do with the imagery.

bofedy
02-28-2014, 11:10 AM
Well looking at the pic the boobs due seem odd just had a thought thou it just looks like she has had a boob job done on her which probly make people think she resembles a porn star or some topless models and so she seems slezy ect.

Other than that there is no problems for me.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 11:14 AM
The only thing that makes this even close to offensive is the location of the offering bowl that slides out. Anyone saying differently has a gigantic stick up their ass.

"I don't find it offensive, so it's wrong to find it offensive." You're doing it again. Don't conflate your opinion with everyones', and make it WRONG to disagree with you. You CANNOT speak in the negative for a group you are not a part of.

To be clear: I have absolutely no problem with artistic expression, or nudity, or sexuality - in case anyone is planning to strawman me with one of those again. The only issue I have here is specifically with the objectification. Tone it down and make it so it's not exploitative, and I'm COMPLETELY on board. Discworld's The Lady is one of my favorite god-themed characters of all time. The picture from Cory's post with her hair made out of sky looks AMAZING, aside from the skanky boob-drop dress. I want this to be a thing; I just want it to be a tasteful thing. Isn't the promise or hint of sexuality even more alluring than just putting it coldly on display?


Oss, I did not enjoy being called out by the way. If you think I objectify women, you have the wrong impression of me. And saying that a man can't have an opinion on what is offensive or not is incredibly narrow minded - there are most definitely examples of males being objectified either by women or even other males. And I didn't form my overall opinion before speaking about it with my girlfriend - my opinion isn't some ignorant testosterone driven opinion.

Everyone can have an opinion, but NOT everyone can have the DEFINITIVE opinion. You're welcome to your opinion (as am I, as is everyone), but your opinion doesn't count in the discussion on whether or not it is offensive, because you're not a member of the group being used. Just like you and I have no right to tell a black man a certain word isn't racist. Just like you and I have no right to tell a woman she's not allowed to use a contraceptive.

All that being said, I'm sorry for calling you out by name. Your post in particular was the one I was responding to originally, but I was talking about 3 or 4 prior posters all together, and couldn't remember their names. Yours was just the last one I saw before I decided to follow up again. I didn't mean to single you out, and I'm sorry for offending you by that. It wasn't my intention.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 11:20 AM
Everyone can have an opinion, but NOT everyone can have the DEFINITIVE opinion. You're welcome to your opinion (as am I, as is everyone), but your opinion doesn't count in the discussion on whether or not it is offensive

There are so many problems with this statement. You don't know who that is participating in this conversation is female, either mentally or physically. It seems to me that you just said your opinion on this matter is invalid as well. But you're forcing me to assume a lot about you to make that leap, IE, you're a dude, and you do not identify as female.

Furthermore the statement that a human being cannot empathize with the plight of another human being of different skin color or sexuality is the root of all of the problems you're supposedly trying to defend. Nothing about your statement or sentiment is redeemable as far as I can tell.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 11:26 AM
I never said you couldn't empathize. I said you couldn't DECIDE in the NEGATIVE.

Anyone can decide that something IS offensive. Only the affected party can decide that it's NOT.

And I know Xenavire is a guy, because he said so, now and previously. I'm not assuming anything.

MoikPEI
02-28-2014, 11:27 AM
I kinda feel like the fact that the boob cube triggered this level of division demonstrates that it's a problem, regardless of the philosophy who can or can't be offended.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 11:30 AM
That art is rather revealing, but not to the point of actually being offensive. And you are saying that it is definitively offensive.


I never said *I* was offended either. I said it is offensive. Those are two very different statements.

I am glad you are not offended, but I don't think it is being offensive in the least. Slightly crude, maybe, but not actually offensive. And my girlfriend, whom you are implying should be offended because she is female, is also not offended - she agrees that the breasts are a bit much, but it isn't offending her.

I can agree that it is a little over the top, but you cannot just declare it offensive Oss. To certain groups it may be offensive, but to a large majority, it will not be. That does not make it inherently offensive, nor is it objectification. It just happens to be a woman in a ill-fitting dress.

I am much more likely to be offended by things like Lara Croft/Tomb raider, Final Fantasy 13/2/Lightning returns, and a bunch of other recent AAA games. The levels usually vary by specific outfit though, or the action in the specific game. But this is fairly inoffensive in the bigger picture. And the art itself doesn't seem to be designed to be used in-game either, only the altar (which I think should be tweaked but it 99% fine as well).

But my main point here is that you cannot define it as offensive any more than anyone else can define it as inoffensive. Making statements as hard fact is wrong, and I object to that far more than I object to any imagery in this thread.

Malakili
02-28-2014, 11:31 AM
Frankly it just struck me as so bizarrely out of context. I wanted to watch a pack of cards being opened and suddenly boobs.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 11:32 AM
So, the white men can declare that lacy lingerie is offensive to women and ban them, that's fine. They can decide anything but ankle length garments are offensive, they can decide women being allowed to vote is offensive to women. They shouldn't be bothered with the hardship of suffrage.

This is breaks down honestly the second you think about it on any scale. More over. In this case, the party that can decide it is not offensive is fictional. Some women would see being depicted like that as a triumph of the sexual revolution, see it as an invasion of their personal sexuality. The only person it actually impinges on isn't real.

Just because someone is a guy biologically doesn't mean they don't identify as a female internally. Are they allowed to speak for all women in this? Or is that just the purview of those born with the right parts?


I kinda feel like the fact that the boob cube triggered this level of division demonstrates that it's a problem, regardless of the philosophy who can or can't be offended.

Anytime someone has a thought the differs from the majority and sparks a debate that should be removed? There goes packs entirely, treasure chests, mercenaries...

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 11:32 AM
And I know Xenavire is a guy, because he said so, now and previously. I'm not assuming anything.

Oss has this correct, and I will defend him on it as much as needed. I don't like fighting with Oss because I generally agree with him, and I have never hidden my gender or preferences, so that is hardly something worth calling him out on.

Bekkir
02-28-2014, 11:33 AM
Yes. "More stuff if you pay gold" is the same as "Less stuff if you don't pay gold." That's how this kind of mechanic works. If you offer players a chance to get more loot, you also have to reduce the amount of the initial loot to keep loot distribution at your target level.

Just to add my opinion, I can totally see where Mach is coming from on most of his points. I've seen/discussed this kind of 'mandatory highest efficiency' mentality quite a bit in different games. I don't necessarily agree with him on what needs to be done about it (if anything) but I believe his concerns are NOT trolling, and will be valid for a portion of the player base. I think it will be a small portion, but it will be a vocal and hard core portion. I only mention it to support the idea that his comments should at least be discussed/acknowledged internally by Crypto so they can try to make the best choices for their game. (like they always do)

As for the the boob cube... /sigh

Personally I'm right on the line between "it's acceptable stylized art" and "it's just a bit too much". I think throwing our coins into the cool magic portal-y thing on top of the alter instead of injecting it into her cleavage/coin slot, would be a better choice. What really grabbed me and jarred my attention away from the cards was that when opening a pack, the Rare covers up her face and just sits on top of her breasts. I don't need my Rare/Legendary presented to me on a silver platter of breasts. ;) Maybe the Rare card could be moved down a bit so it doesn't cover her face. Then it would be like the goddess is looking at the card also. That would have the added benefit of covering her cleavage during the reveal so our attention isn't split between awesome digital cards and digital goddess bosom.


All that said, I'm a fan of what I see. Opening packs is SUPER important in TCGs and I think Corey is right to put a decent amount of work into it to make it feel as awesome as possible in game.

Corey said there will be ways to open multiple packs at once, but the video only shows a "open all" button. I think that is where some of the confusion is coming from. They may be interpreting his statement as referencing that button. I doubt that our only options will be "one at a time" or "ALL OF THEM NOAW!". I'm sure he will clear that up.

My only question is about Primal packs. Im eager to see how the layout and display of the cards will give off the proper feeling of awesomeness when we 'pop a Primal'. :)

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 11:41 AM
Oss has this correct, and I will defend him on it as much as needed. I don't like fighting with Oss because I generally agree with him, and I have never hidden my gender or preferences, so that is hardly something worth calling him out on.

The issue isn't whether or not you're a guy, but declaring that anyone can't have a valid opinion on any topic is a huge mistake, it opens up people to having to hide their genders or provide proof of their womanhood to speak about a topic. It's just ridiculous and offensive. I wasn't intending to call your masculinity into question. Just that many people online pretend to be another gender for comfort

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 11:44 AM
The issue isn't whether or not you're a guy, but declaring that anyone can't have a valid opinion on any topic is a huge mistake, it opens up people to having to hide their genders or provide proof of their womanhood to speak about a topic. It's just ridiculous and offensive. I wasn't intending to call your masculinity into question. Just that many people online pretend to be another gender for comfort

Heh. Don't worry Gwaer, I wasn't at all offended, I was just giving Oss a bit of support since it was the truth. I actually assume that you know I am male, straight, and have a girlfriend, based solely off my few posts in this thread, and I found it odd that you made any sort of argument to the contrary.

Still, your point is valid when applied to other people who have not made their gender or preferences known on these boards.

Lawlschool
02-28-2014, 11:50 AM
Take a look at mancubus, that is far more sexualization than this is. It's okay in small doses even for that level of sexualization to both genders. If it becomes a systemic problem and every single piece of art becomes an issue, like a number creature collecting cellphone games where every creature is some wacky sex demon or goddess, then sure.

This is a good point. CZE has been pretty good at not turning Hex artwork in to a TnA spectacle, and there's nothing really wrong with the occasional sexualization of the human form.

However, I gotta agree in part with Oss. The artwork is unnecessarily hyper-sexualized (at least there's a good lore reason for Mancubus) and the boob-cube is just kinda weird. Kismet is the Primal of Luck, not the Primal of Fuck.

The style is great, and Kismet looks pretty damn good, but would there really be anything wrong with giving her a bit more coverage? We're not talking about censoring the human body, and it's not about being prude, it's about not wanting to perpetuate oversexualization of women in videogames.

In all seriousness, those of you advocating for the artwork should ask yourselves what is the problem with toning down the TnA? Obviously some people take issue with the depiction, but will it really be upsetting to see a little bit less cleavage?

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 11:55 AM
This is a good point. CZE has been pretty good at not turning Hex artwork in to a TnA spectacle, and there's nothing really wrong with the occasional sexualization of the human form.

However, I gotta agree in part with Oss. The artwork is unnecessarily hyper-sexualized (at least there's a good lore reason for Mancubus) and the boob-cube is just kinda weird. Kismet is the Primal of Luck, not the Primal of Fuck.

The style is great, and Kismet looks pretty damn good, but would there really be anything wrong with giving her a bit more coverage? We're not talking about censoring the human body, and it's not about being prude, it's about not wanting to perpetuate oversexualization of women in videogames.

In all seriousness, those of you advocating for the artwork should ask yourselves what is the problem with toning down the TnA? Obviously some people take issue with the depiction, but will it really be upsetting to see a little bit less cleavage?

You misunderstand - I don't mind if it is toned down. Just trying to say it is far from offensive for a large, large portion of people. Covering up is no crime, but I don't really see the point in constantly bending over backwards for people who aren't mature enough to accept that humans are made up of certain body parts.

Luckily most of the current Hex crowd is mature enough to realise these things, but are advocating the change so we don't offend those hyper sensitive people in the future. Again, I don't see the point in doing damage control for something that is barely noteworthy even to those groups.

I certainly don't mind changing it. I prefer artistic licence though.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 11:56 AM
Because in general the history of luck goddesses have had a lot of mysterious sexuality involved. It's not called getting lucky for absolutely no reason whatsoever? Kismet my be the closest thing entrath has to a sex goddess as well. We don't know how prayer works in the setting or how the setting interacts with her.

But more to the point She isn't hyper sexualized. She is in some way sexual. But those aren't the same thing.

fido_one
02-28-2014, 11:58 AM
... It's a touchy subject for a lot of people, and having people who are not victims, targets, or subjects themselves decide amongst themselves that something ISN'T offensive is part of why these problems are so hard to combat.
...

Yeah, it's apparent the intention is for the greater good and that the debate has some sort of compassionate basis. It's one of the reasons that I think this community for Hex is starting out to be really something special. We seem much, much less prone to the caustic Internet forum trait of pure callousness. On the other side of the coin, however, since the topic is hitting a [collective] nerve, it's that much easier for us to get emotionally charged on something against each other when we may be on the same page.

I share some of the same history as you Ossuary, luckily for me I work in an environment that still has a lot of bullies at the head of various departments and I have a position to stand up to them or protect the ones they target. As much as I despise the conflict, the thing I am proud most of in my job is you suddenly seeing me in your face and being an asshole if you picked a fight with someone that you know wouldn't fight back. In that way, the bullying I had when I was younger makes me a much better person at my job (management) than I would have been without it. (Though don't get me wrong, I'd have preferred not to have been bullied when I was a kid and I sure as hell would love not to get into fights at people at work who are attacking people who are perceived as weak)

Daer
02-28-2014, 11:58 AM
It's one thing if her image was plastered all over the website/ads/client etc. and she was some sort of mascot for Hex. That would be exploitive. However the image of Kismet (which is what most people seem to have a problem with, not the cube) presented context free isn't something that anyone needs to get fired up about.

Lawlschool
02-28-2014, 12:06 PM
But more to the point She isn't hyper sexualized. She is in some way sexual. But those aren't the same thing.

The distinction is pretty much what this whole debate has been about.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 12:07 PM
I think, it may perhaps be more helpful to say what I infer from the art.

1, most primals are dragons
2, the primals that aren't dragons we are aware of have favored races, the spider one created the vennen, the orc one and the orcs, so now we have humans.
3, I assume primals are quite old in general, and luck should be very old, it plays a part in all things, and it seems to be indicated with the star field.

that leads me to 4, this primal has chosen humanity, or humanity has chosen her and her form was either changed by her, or by the humans in some way

5, there is generally only one primal per race, at least that has been true so far, so that primal has to fill a lot of roles. which would include, sex, reproduction, and harvest... All generally thought of and depicted as voluptuous women all through the past, all of which fall under luck.



That was my immediate thought and more or less cascade of events that happened when I saw the art.

MoikPEI
02-28-2014, 12:17 PM
Has Kismet been called a sex goddess in canon?

ossuary
02-28-2014, 12:18 PM
It's a cube with three dimensional boobs sticking out of it. They were designed with depth, so they would clearly stand out. A slot slides OUT of them for you to slip money into. I honestly don't know how anyone could try to claim that that is NOT objectification in its purest form. Whether or not that personally offends any particular person is a side subject to whether or not the image is, itself, objectifying.

It's the Dead Island: Riptide bloody torso all over again. Boobs for the sake of boobs, because boobs.

Gwaer, generally speaking I agree with you, but you are reading way more into what I'm saying than is accurate, and putting words in my mouth on top of it. There's no need to bring self-identification or LGBT matters into this either, that's another strawman. I wasn't talking about gender identification in any way. And again, I have never in this conversation said someone can't have an opinion. All I ever said is that a person who is not a target of something doesn't have the right to decide for that person that it's NOT offensive. You're welcome to continue to believe that it's not, but don't try to tell them that it's not; that's a step too far.

The video game industry has a real big problem historically with objectification and marginalization. It's a stigma they need to work hard to get past.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 12:21 PM
It's a cube with three dimensional boobs sticking out of it. They were designed with depth, so they would clearly stand out. A slot slides OUT of them for you to slip money into. I honestly don't know how anyone could try to claim that that is NOT objectification in its purest form. Whether or not that personally offends any particular person is a side subject to whether or not the image is, itself, objectifying.

It's the Dead Island: Riptide bloody torso all over again. Boobs for the sake of boobs, because boobs.

Gwaer, generally speaking I agree with you, but you are reading way more into what I'm saying than is accurate, and putting words in my mouth on top of it. There's no need to bring self-identification or LGBT matters into this either, that's another strawman. I wasn't talking about gender identification in any way. And again, I have never in this conversation said someone can't have an opinion. All I ever said is that a person who is not a target of something doesn't have the right to decide for that person that it's NOT offensive. You're welcome to continue to believe that it's not, but don't try to tell them that it's not; that's a step too far.

The video game industry has a real big problem historically with objectification and marginalization. It's a stigma they need to work hard to get past.

I have already stated I find the position of the slot as being odd. I think it was a poor placement decision, and should be changed (or removed, that pool at the top looks enough like a wishing well to make me want to throw money at it.)

But the breasts themselves are not the problem, the fact that you put money there is. No objections to that line of thought.

Ingmar
02-28-2014, 12:23 PM
My feedback for Cory (GK backer if it matters):

- Ditch the stupid T&A art, it's not only juvenile but also just not very good.

- Give us an option to turn all that animation nonsense off. I want to be able to open one pack at a time and just see the cards. All that bling is entirely wasted effort. After the first pack it's not going to do anything but annoy people.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 12:25 PM
I have already stated I find the position of the slot as being odd. I think it was a poor placement decision, and should be changed (or removed, that pool at the top looks enough like a wishing well to make me want to throw money at it.)

But the breasts themselves are not the problem, the fact that you put money there is. No objections to that line of thought.
Yeah, if it were my decision, I would have you throw money into the well. That looks totally inviting. I'm even fine having Kismet on the cube / altar. Just make it her visage (or even visage + a bit of top cleavage - I'm not a monster!) instead of her disembodied, three dimensional tits, and we're golden. :)

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 12:25 PM
My feedback for Cory (GK backer if it matters):

- Ditch the stupid T&A art, it's not only juvenile but also just not very good.

- Give us an option to turn all that animation nonsense off. I want to be able to open one pack at a time and just see the cards. All that bling is entirely wasted effort. After the first pack it's not going to do anything but annoy people.

The art isn't going to be used ingame, no need to remove it completely (besides, most people really like the concept and the style.)

And I agree in theory about the packs, but why not just open them in bulk and then look through each card one at a time? Also, the animation might just be interesting enough to be worth using multiple times.


Yeah, if it were my decision, I would have you throw money into the well. I'm even fine having Kismet on the cube / altar. Just make it her visage (or even visage + a bit of top cleavage - I'm not a monster!) instead of her disembodied, three dimensional tits, and we're golden. :)

All I see is cleavage right now. And they are flatter than the face - hardly very 3D. In fact, they seem to be completely 2D.

Lawlschool
02-28-2014, 12:27 PM
It's the Dead Island: Riptide bloody torso all over again. Boobs for the sake of boobs, because boobs.


I kinda feel like the fact that the boob cube triggered this level of division demonstrates that it's a problem, regardless of the philosophy who can or can't be offended.


Frankly it just struck me as so bizarrely out of context. I wanted to watch a pack of cards being opened and suddenly boobs.

I think these three quotes, especially Oss's, sum up the problem with Kismet's depiction quite well.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 12:32 PM
Just to add my opinion, I can totally see where Mach is coming from on most of his points. I've seen/discussed this kind of 'mandatory highest efficiency' mentality quite a bit in different games. I don't necessarily agree with him on what needs to be done about it (if anything) but I believe his concerns are NOT trolling, and will be valid for a portion of the player base. I think it will be a small portion, but it will be a vocal and hard core portion. I only mention it to support the idea that his comments should at least be discussed/acknowledged internally by Crypto so they can try to make the best choices for their game. (like they always do)

As a hyper-optimizer myself, I find Mach's sentiments rather odd. There is no value loss, because everything is tradeable. If a player does not want to mess with Gold, he can just sell the chest for Plat on the AH for the fair market value. (And that FMV will pretty accurately reflect the actual value you'd get if you went through the entire Gold sink process to reap the rewards of the chest.) Similarly, he can buy Gold for Plat and use it to spin the wheel. Or he could sell his excess PvP cards for Gold directly. There is literally ZERO need for any particular player to do PvE to reap the full rewards. All that matters is that someone (anyone) is doing PvE to mine the Gold and sell it to the PvP guy. Tying the two economies is a VERY GOOD THING, one that several of us were worried about and debated quite a bit last year.


Give us an option to turn all that animation nonsense off. I want to be able to open one pack at a time and just see the cards. All that bling is entirely wasted effort. After the first pack it's not going to do anything but annoy people.

I both agree and disagree. I agree that eventually all eye candy in a game becomes noise that you look through to see the actual mechanics at work. However, one's reaction to those first few encounters with a new system rely in large part upon the quality of the artistry, not just the mechanics. So, I agree that there should be a way to bypass the non-mechanical interactions, but I do not agree that the "bling is entirely wasted effort".

Svenn
02-28-2014, 12:32 PM
Yeah, if it were my decision, I would have you throw money into the well. That looks totally inviting. I'm even fine having Kismet on the cube / altar. Just make it her visage (or even visage + a bit of top cleavage - I'm not a monster!) instead of her disembodied, three dimensional tits, and we're golden. :)
I'm with Ossuary on this one. And mostly agree with Ingmar above him as well.

I have an issue with the artwork itself not because it's a scantily clad woman (she could be naked for all I care) but because that's not a woman's body. The proportions are the oversexualized male fantasy (huge round boobs and tiny waist). It's not the worst offender I've seen by far, of course.

As for the altar... the whole Kismet thing seems unnecessary and awkward, and even more awkward because half the thing is her boobs which are meant to look like they are popping out. If it was full statue of a naked woman I wouldn't be bothered, but the way she's presented with boobs popping out of it looks a bit silly.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 12:41 PM
I'm with Ossuary on this one. And mostly agree with Ingmar above him as well.

I have an issue with the artwork itself not because it's a scantily clad woman (she could be naked for all I care) but because that's not a woman's body. The proportions are the oversexualized male fantasy (huge round boobs and tiny waist). It's not the worst offender I've seen by far, of course.

As for the altar... the whole Kismet thing seems unnecessary and awkward, and even more awkward because half the thing is her boobs which are meant to look like they are popping out. If it was full statue of a naked woman I wouldn't be bothered, but the way she's presented with boobs popping out of it looks a bit silly.

I actually think a fully body statue of her, holding a large offering bowl filled with blue swirly liquid would be much more awesome, but I just don't know where to put the slot machine part on that. The rim of the bowl perhaps?

Also, it would look like she was holding up a stargate, and no-one could complain about that.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 12:43 PM
The swirl at the top of the boob cube is the same swirl as Mastery of Time, but black. It is literally the cosmos.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 12:44 PM
She's not a human. Are we going to deconstruct the vennen primal as well?

Daer
02-28-2014, 12:45 PM
Just make it her visage (or even visage + a bit of top cleavage - I'm not a monster!) instead of her disembodied, three dimensional tits, and we're golden. :)

This is pretty disingenuous since what you say is fine is exactly what is presented, not just "disembodied tits".


As for the altar... the whole Kismet thing seems unnecessary and awkward, and even more awkward because half the thing is her boobs which are meant to look like they are popping out. If it was full statue of a naked woman I wouldn't be bothered, but the way she's presented with boobs popping out of it looks a bit silly.

She isn't just 3D breasts. You did she she has a face right? And all of her is 3D; cleavage, shoulders, face, etc.

I'd rather CZE stick to what they had in mind artistically. IMO CZE censoring themselves so they don't offend some hyper-sensitive hypothetical customers (since everyone objecting has made sure to say they aren't personally offended) rather then create the vision they have in mind for the game would be a bigger loss.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 12:49 PM
This is pretty disingenuous since what you say is fine if exactly what is presented, not just "disembodied tits".



She isn't just 3D breasts. You did she she has a face right? And all of her is 3D; cleavage, shoulders, face, etc.

I'd rather CZE stick to what they had in mind artistically. IMO CZE censoring themselves so they don't offend some hyper-sensitive hypothetical customers (since everyone objecting has made sure to say they aren't personally offended) rather then create the vision they have in mind for the game would be a bigger loss.

I don't think they should censor themselves at all. But I think this whole thing could look a lot more awesome and be less likely to piss people off all in one fell swoop.

I could happily see the current version hit live and I would use it for opening packs and upgrading chests, as intended.

Tmon
02-28-2014, 01:05 PM
I don't care one way or the other about cartoon boobs, but I would like to be able to turn off the animation and choose to open one pack, some number of packs or all packs. Even better would be if I could open the library click a stack of boosters, enter the number I want to open, then filter on New Cards.

Thrawn
02-28-2014, 01:10 PM
I don't care one way or the other about cartoon boobs, but I would like to be able to turn off the animation and choose to open one pack, some number of packs or all packs. Even better would be if I could open the library click a stack of boosters, enter the number I want to open, then filter on New Cards.

Agreed on all points. None of the flash of it does anything to make it "feel" like opening a real paper pack. I just want to get my cards, see what they are and more on. Or more importantly, I'd rather have sealed tournaments that work, or better yet, draft tournaments.

mudkip
02-28-2014, 01:18 PM
I suggest reading books by feminist Wendy McElroy mudkip, if your genuinely interested in the topic.

Take a look at mancubus, that is far more sexualization than this is. It's okay in small doses even for that level of sexualization to both genders. If it becomes a systemic problem and every single piece of art becomes an issue, like a number creature collecting cellphone games where every creature is some wacky sex demon or goddess, then sure. But this single image in this exact context is not an issue. I even asked my 67 year old hyper religious aunt, just for her opinion, and her problem was about the alter itself and the act of sacrificing something to witchcraft. And nothing to do with the imagery.

I'm interested enough to hear your thoughts, but not enough to read a book.

Loregoyle
02-28-2014, 01:28 PM
Has Kismet been called a sex goddess in canon?

No, but I have.

chromus
02-28-2014, 01:28 PM
The Mancubus point is very valid. There's a naked man with nipple rings for god's sake... It's clear, just from this card, that CZE plays it both ways. The name of the game here is artistic freedom. I say they should stretch limits as far as their ESRB rating (and equivalents in other regions) allows them so they don't get in trouble with the law.

I can say I'm really not into RPing in general or the specific lore of any game I play. However, I admit that TCGs need to have some general themes and stories that put you in the framework of what a specific card is and/or represents. This, along with the art, really helps to give the card some flavor and impact.

CZE knows this well and they have been working hard to come up with a fantasy setting that is interesting, mysterious, and that we are anxious to find out more about. To accomplish this fully, I truly feel they have to let their artists have as much freedom as possible (boobs, nipple-ringed men, the whole lot). I always criticize Magic the Gathering and its shortcomings but man, those guys really know how to make some flavorful cards! Perhaps it isn't quite fair to compare, and there are lots of cards just look plain awesome, but I feel Hex isn't quite near the level of MTG yet. Hex artists/storytellers/designers need all the help they can get... (Simple example: check out Technical Genius and Researcher Adept arts. Check out Quick Strider and Prairie Scout arts. Being so similar strips all identity and flavor/impact). I am sure the Hex art and flavor will improve with time (as MTG has) but let's not limit the talents from the get go. Offended minorities shouldn't get in the way of Cory & Team fully expressing their visions for this game. As someone has pointed it out, it doesn't have to appeal to everyone...

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 01:34 PM
It should appeal to most people though. I personally feel this isn't anywhere close to over that line.

Niedar
02-28-2014, 01:36 PM
It is over the line.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 01:43 PM
It is over the line.

In what way? Who thinks cleavage is offensive? (Well, probably most Christians, but most of the world thinks that no nipple - no foul.)

I have seen a lot worse, like crotch shots and nipples pointing through skin-tight clothing. This is far tamer than most things out there.

It isn't over the line at all. It could be toned down a little, but it isn't over the line.

BossHoss
02-28-2014, 01:51 PM
So maybe for the "offended" people we implement a Steve Jobs option that when selected every card is wearing a turtle neck then?

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 01:55 PM
It is over the line.

You're saying at least half of the people will find that offensive? I look forward to hearing about your research on that topic.

Leingod
02-28-2014, 01:56 PM
I actually think a fully body statue of her, holding a large offering bowl filled with blue swirly liquid would be much more awesome, but I just don't know where to put the slot machine part on that. The rim of the bowl perhaps?

Also, it would look like she was holding up a stargate, and no-one could complain about that.

Why not just also toss the coins into the bowl?

Umaro
02-28-2014, 01:59 PM
Has Kismet been called a sex goddess in canon?No, but I have.

This is the best post this thread will ever see.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 02:03 PM
Why not just also toss the coins into the bowl?

I said that already in a previous post, I was actually referring this time to the slot machine effect itself (the spinning things would not look classy on her breasts or anything, hence why I said the rim of the bowl might work.)

Coins obviously are meant to go in the swirly vortex of gold sinking!

Hatts
02-28-2014, 02:16 PM
In what way? Who thinks cleavage is offensive? (Well, probably most Christians, but most of the world thinks that no nipple - no foul.)

Actually that's my complaint, I think the no nipple no foul mindset leads to art like this that is... well... anatomically ambitious ;)

Freebird_Falcon
02-28-2014, 02:20 PM
Because in general the history of luck goddesses have had a lot of mysterious sexuality involved. It's not called getting lucky for absolutely no reason whatsoever?

this x1billion.

She's a goddess portrayed exactly as intended. A god. Not Jane Doe: everyday woman. There is already a mental separation because she is clearly not intended to represent what a real woman would be. Do you males compare your personal image to Thor, God of Thunder and find offense in his resemblence to a huge, strapping male figure?

I didn't see anyone outraged at the ripped, topless figure of the Enlightened Seeker who is definitively a human male. And yet this does not represent anywhere near what the average male looks like. It is clearly "sexism." So, why the disparity? You cannot legitimately argue that the portrayal of Kismet is unrealistic/too sexualized/whatever without equally applying your arguement across the board, even in areas you might not personally agree with, though they would qualify. Which means if you think she should be modified on that basis, then you must also call for changes to every other qualifying piece of art or you are a selective hypocrite. If the bust size truly seems unrealistic to you, I suggest you use the internet. You will find that there are many real, living women with MUCH larger breasts.

It makes me sad (and rather annoyed) that the awesomeness of the blogpost has been totally hijacked by this subject. And in the end, doesn't it seem like it's really more of a pissing match about who's interpretation is more correct than it is about the topic itself?

hacky
02-28-2014, 02:27 PM
In what way? Who thinks cleavage is offensive? (Well, probably most Christians, but most of the world thinks that no nipple - no foul.)

Did you really have to go there? You're even worse than people who find the cleavage offensive.

Daer
02-28-2014, 02:32 PM
Did you really have to go there? You're even worse than people who find the cleavage offensive.

Christians?

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 02:35 PM
Seriously, leave religion out of it. This is not a discussion of that. The day will come when we find out what religion on entrath entails, and believe me I have nightmares about it. But we're not there... So just stop.

Tinuvas
02-28-2014, 02:36 PM
DUDE. So flippin' cool. I don't think I've ever been excited to open a digital card pack before.
This


As for the modesty of Kismet, offensive or not offensive, I will be avoiding full art renditions of her in my home. I could quote studies about the harmful effects of the objectification of women blah blah blah, but it wouldn't make a difference, and I don't want to waste anyone's time. I do know that in MY home, she crosses a line. My children (and I for that matter) don't need to look at that art, and while I won't ban it (I will continue to play the game), I will avoid it. Which stinks. The whole bowl/luck primal/pack opening experience is mind blowing for me. If not for the art, I would show the pack opening to my friends just to introduce them to the game. I still might, but I'll have to add a caveat before I show it: "the art's a little much, but I LOVE this sequence", which takes so much away from the experience. I agree with previous posts that you can make mysterious and sexual without being blatant and sexual. I actually think it would be a more powerful ambiance if you did. But that's just me. Like I said, I'll still play the game, but I think CZE can do better.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 02:38 PM
Did you really have to go there? You're even worse than people who find the cleavage offensive.

I am stating a fact - a large number of Christians find cleavage objectionable (especially people like my elderly step grandmother.) Not terribly offensive, but just enough to complain about it. I never said it was restricted to a single religious group, or even religious people in general, I just used a common example that was factual and not just pulled out of my backside.

I could generalise to great lengths here, from the elderly to the prudish, but they are still a minority when you look at the big picture.

And certain religions have spread the idea that nudity and sexual contact are wrong over the past few centuries (millenia even) - that has had lasting effects, but a lot of people are learning new things and those offensive things are no longer offensive.

I am not here to debate that however, and I will refrain from making further examples of any group, but the majority are not as outraged by cleavage as you might think. Full blown nudity, sure, but not cleavage.

Daer
02-28-2014, 02:40 PM
New update is up on the website: http://hextcg.com/hex-update-pack-crackin/

We will also be able to get Alternate Art in treasure chests, which I'm not sure has been confirmed before.

hacky
02-28-2014, 02:43 PM
Seriously, leave religion out of it. This is not a discussion of that. The day will come when we find out what religion on entrath entails, and believe me I have nightmares about it. But we're not there... So just stop.

I totally agree with you, Gwaer. I identify as a moderate Christian (Catholic even) and I DO NOT find the cleavage offensive. I am extremely offended at Xenavire's jab. That kind of hate--and it IS hate--has no place here, and I will not tolerate being verbally bullied.

On topic:

Animation is awesome, I love the concept. I respect the opinions that find the art too suggestive, and wouldn't mind seeing the art become a bit more modest in order to embrace more of our community, rather than being unnecessarily divisive.

Rakshall
02-28-2014, 02:44 PM
I don't care one way or the other about cartoon boobs, but I would like to be able to turn off the animation and choose to open one pack, some number of packs or all packs. Even better would be if I could open the library click a stack of boosters, enter the number I want to open, then filter on New Cards.
There are many people who say the same thing about opening multiple packs - have You read blog post? It's not only video links.

If this all seems like a bit much and you’re worried that opening packs is going to take too long, we have you covered. We have also built a system for opening multiple packs at once.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 02:54 PM
I totally agree with you, Gwaer. I identify as a moderate Christian (Catholic even) and I DO NOT find the cleavage offensive. I am extremely offended at Xenavire's jab. That kind of hate--and it IS hate--has no place here, and I will not tolerate being verbally bullied.

On topic:

Animation is awesome, I love the concept. I respect the opinions that find the art too suggestive, and wouldn't mind seeing the art become a bit more modest in order to embrace more of our community, rather than being unnecessarily divisive.

Perhaps the country I came from was giving me a bad impression, but a lot of the religious people there were quite vocal whenever there was cleavage (or worse) shown anywhere publicly. I was not trying to make jabs or be hateful, it was simply meant to be factual. And I will stand by my comment as factual based on my knowledge - I am sure a lot of religious people will be offended by excessive cleavage.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 02:55 PM
In what way? Who thinks cleavage is offensive? (Well, probably most Christians, but most of the world thinks that no nipple - no foul.)
I think Christians should be more concerned with avoiding adultery and fornication, which the Bible says are sins. Cleavage shots and (farther down the spectrum) pornography are presumably not sinful directly, but can be temptation towards the aforementioned sexual sins. Then there's also the part where Jesus said that lust is basically the same as sex and hate is like murder...

bojanglesz
02-28-2014, 02:58 PM
Booster packs, tits, nipples, and now religion. What a great thread this has been.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 02:59 PM
I think Christians should be more concerned with avoiding adultery and fornication, which the Bible says are sins. Cleavage shots and (farther down the spectrum) pornography are presumably not sinful directly, but can be temptation towards the aforementioned sexual sins. Then there's also the part where Jesus said that lust is basically the same as sex and hate is like murder...

I am sure parts of the bible can be interpreted multiple ways in that respect, but I am speaking from personal experience. Like I said, it was probably just the country I came from (which I have since left, to move to a new country altogether, where I honestly don't see any sort of complaints to cleavage, which was surprising.) I haven't gone to church and I don't know what is taught, but I have met far too many people against any form of nudity (most of whom were religious) to not see it as fact.

I am actually very pleased that there are religious people here who are not offended. It is a welcome surprise, and something quite new to me.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 03:02 PM
Anytime anyone makes a general statement about a group of people, they're probably being ignorant, of course there are religious people that feel differently than others in that same group. They are each individuals. That will be true in any collection of individuals ever. Just because your past experiences involve a group acting in a general trend does not mean that trend holds true in all such collections of that particular group at all times. Lets all learn something from that, and get back on track, and off the subject of religion.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 03:04 PM
Anytime anyone makes a general statement about a group of people, they're probably being ignorant, of course there are religious people that feel differently than others in that same group. They are each individuals. That will be true in any collection of individuals ever. Just because your past experiences involve a group acting in a general trend does not mean that trend holds true in all such collections of that particular group at all times. Lets all learn something from that, and get back on track, and off the subject of religion.

Good idea, and I do feel bad if I offended anyone. My religious experience is incredibly limited (basically it comes down to people trying to force me to convert, or older religious people complaining about almost everything. Not example prime examples, and that is painfully clear to me right now.)

If I ever mention religion again, feel free to shoot or hang me.

nicosharp
02-28-2014, 03:27 PM
Well, since cleavage came up... Can there be a toggle-able option to have glowing boobs appear when I get a legendary?


Edit: Man-boobs are fine.

Khazrakh
02-28-2014, 03:33 PM
I'd rather CZE stick to what they had in mind artistically. IMO CZE censoring themselves so they don't offend some hyper-sensitive hypothetical customers (since everyone objecting has made sure to say they aren't personally offended) rather then create the vision they have in mind for the game would be a bigger loss.

I couldn't agree more with what you are saying. To me, it would feel bad and very very wrong if CZE really censored a piece of solid, good looking art just because some random guy might not feel comfortable the way it looks right now. I said it before and I'll say it again - the art is fine. Actually I do like it. Yes, Kismet is sexy, but what's wrong with sexy? She's a goddess after all - she should be looking great!

I'm still really shocked we actually have to have this discussion though and I'm still wondering if this is some sort of cultural thing right now. At least where I come from (Germany) the way Kismet is pictured is nothing special what so ever and I highly doubt anybody would waste any time thinking if she's looking appropriate or not. As told before, I didn't even distinctly notice the boobs - it's just...normal.

Tinuvas
02-28-2014, 03:53 PM
Well, I just had my wife view the vids without any leading thoughts and asked what she thought about it. "Except for the lady, that was great!". What about the lady? "She looks like a trophy". Objectification at it's finest. Your mileage may vary :)

Niedar
02-28-2014, 04:07 PM
It has nothing to do with being religious or people being prudes. It has nothing to do with nudity or semi-nudity. Stop constructing straw men to tear down. It has everything to do with people sick of the game industry in general always objectifying women in some attempt to satisfy or attract players.

It doesn't matter what the game is about, a large portion of the game industry somehow finds a way to inject some tits and ass into the game, usually portrayed in an anatomically incorrect stereotypical male fantasy form. You can argue that this is not happening in Hex and thats great but it is only your opinion and many others are not going to agree with it.

This is not just something you can turn into an option. People who are upset about something like this in general don't care that they are not currently seeing it but the fact that it was done in the first place by the company who created the game and are thereby associating themselves with them and it.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 04:09 PM
Yup. Stay classy; don't be trashy.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 04:13 PM
It has nothing to do with being religious or people being prudes. It has nothing to do with nudity or semi-nudity. Stop constructing straw men to tear down. It has everything to do with people sick of the game industry in general always objectifying women in some attempt to satisfy or attract players.

It doesn't matter what the game is about, a large portion of the game industry somehow finds a way to inject some tits and ass into the game, usually portrayed in an anatomically incorrect stereotypical male fantasy form. You can argue that this is not happening in Hex and thats great but it is only your opinion and many others are not going to agree with it.

This is not just something you can turn into an option. People who are upset about something like this in general don't care that they are not currently seeing it but the fact that it was done in the first place by the company who created the game and are thereby associating themselves with them and it.

So blame the game companies that are the worst offenders? Honestly, CZE shouldn't get flamed (by anyone) over this, including us, because it is meant to be artistic, and not sexual.

Not attacking anyone here, just feeling a little frustrated by the thought that other companies that do it blatantly (think the Dead or alive games, and to a lesser extent, almost every fighting game) will be the cause of hate for CZE in the future.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 04:30 PM
So blame the game companies that are the worst offenders? Honestly, CZE shouldn't get flamed (by anyone) over this, including us, because it is meant to be artistic, and not sexual.

Not attacking anyone here, just feeling a little frustrated by the thought that other companies that do it blatantly (think the Dead or alive games, and to a lesser extent, almost every fighting game) will be the cause of hate for CZE in the future.

So you figure as long as they're not quite as bad as the worst offenders, it should just be overlooked? Shouldn't they strive to be as good as they can be, instead of just better than the worst?

It's EXACTLY this kind of logic that leads to defenders saying things like, "Sure, I slapped her around, but it's not like I broke any bones." (That's a real quote from a real domestic abuse case, incidentally.) Just because a problem is endemic doesn't mean we should continue to tolerate it; we should always be striving to be better, and helping others to see why they need to be better. I'm not satisfied with Hex being not as bad as some other company's game.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 04:34 PM
So you figure as long as they're not quite as bad as the worst offenders, it should just be overlooked? Shouldn't they strive to be as good as they can be, instead of just better than the worst?

It's EXACTLY this kind of logic that leads to defenders saying things like, "Sure, I slapped her around, but it's not like I broke any bones." (That's a real quote from a real domestic abuse case, incidentally.) Just because a problem is endemic doesn't mean we should continue to tolerate it; we should always be striving to be better, and helping others to see why they need to be better. I'm not satisfied with Hex being not as bad as some other company's game.

I didn't say that at all Oss, I am saying the whole industry should be looked at and everything brought to an acceptable standard. Hex isn't even close to as bad as it could be, and is much closer to what I think an acceptable standard should be.

CZE could do a little better, but from what we have seen of the artistic style so far, we don't want to censor them too much. As long as they never cross the line, I think they are fine.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 04:41 PM
I'm saying that Hex, and CZE are hitting a "good as it can be" place. Many people, men and women enjoy a little bit of sexuality in their game play. CZE has been extremely thoughtful in not plastering hypersexualized women all over their key art, and other areas, and then just occasionally you get things like mancubus, or a succubi. That is not a bad thing. Trying to have nothing sexually expressive in the game is however a bad thing. So yes, in this case, you should be bitching at game devs that are actually a problem and exploitative, and not CZE.

Once again, since it is a person on an object, it can't not be objectification.

Lawlschool
02-28-2014, 05:37 PM
I'm saying that Hex, and CZE are hitting a "good as it can be" place. Many people, men and women enjoy a little bit of sexuality in their game play. CZE has been extremely thoughtful in not plastering hypersexualized women all over their key art, and other areas, and then just occasionally you get things like mancubus, or a succubi. That is not a bad thing. Trying to have nothing sexually expressive in the game is however a bad thing. So yes, in this case, you should be bitching at game devs that are actually a problem and exploitative, and not CZE.

Once again, since it is a person on an object, it can't not be objectification.

First off, you're generalizing people's interest in sexuality mixed with game play, and equivocating "objectification." Secondly, no one has argued that there's a problem with sexual artwork in general; a female counterpart to the Mancubus (like a succubus, a nymph, a siren, etc) would not be out of place and would likely not be objectionable. The problem lies with the unnecessary sexualization of a key aspect of the game.

Also, how is not having sexually expressive artwork a bad thing? TnA doesn't really add anything to the game, especially if TnA isn't a focal point. Not having TnA doesn't, and shouldn't, detract from the gameplay experience.

Once again, this isn't about censorship, it's about unnecessary TnA that adds nothing to the experience.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 06:02 PM
The opposite of wanton sexuality everywhere, is all women in burkas... I'd prefer to strike a happy medium... Some sexualizing of both sexes, some of both sexes being in burkas. Even when women were more sexually repressed, and were only allowed to wear dresses that covered their ankles, men found ankles incredibly sexy. The more you make them cover up, and make those parts some sacred thing the more they are objectified in the minds of men, or women if the roles were entirely reversed. It is human nature, it's why you're not supposed to reward your children with dessert for finishing their food, but instead offer dessert with everything else. You begin to covet that which is withheld from you. Basic psychology.

The idea of luck, and getting rewards, and having a lottery is seductive by nature. The figure of lady luck is often sexually suggestive for just that reason. If their lore, and story dictates that, it is not unnecessary. It is not plastered everywhere in the game, it is not being used to draw in teenagers, it's an aspect of the story you will see once you have already gotten your hands on packs. It is something they will be revealing as part of the lore to us according to cory's blog. How can you call that unnecessary?

This just smacks of breastfeeding in public debates to me. Breasts are a body part. A secondary sexual characteristic, they are like a mans beard. It's ridiculous that they're held in such high esteem that they can even be used as a draw to teenage boys. If people stopped making such a huge deal about it, then they would lose this naughty mysticism that surrounds them. The chick has boobs, there is a classical style bust on this box of a chick with boobs, that shouldn't have to be edited out.

DackFayden
02-28-2014, 06:09 PM
My thoughts:

On initial viewing I didn't notice anything. Actually I barely noticed the female in the picture. To be honest the overall card opening came of kinda lame to me trying too hard to be flashy and not so good.

On second viewing I payed attention to depictions a bit. let me preface this by saying I'm a guy so I can't relate easily to when females point out objectification, cuz to me it comes of as a given or jsut an aspect I'm observing.

So on second viewing I would say I have to agree. The sexualization there seems pretty unnecessary and does come of as "boobs = male customers yayayayay". But after reading the lore on Kismet a bit it makes sense, "Opening a pack is luck so lets show a luck goddess"

I'm not too sure about how sexualized Kismet *needs* to be. From what I've seen in gaming there are ways to show idolized females in non-hypersexualized ways. I'd be okay with toning down the proportions to more realistic sizes. Also I just want to stress be careful about dismissing others peoples concerns. We all walk in different shoes and have different perspectives.

Captain_Obvious
02-28-2014, 06:10 PM
~ Here take my gold, pull out my package and show me that Legendary chest ~

Why so up in arms?

Niedar
02-28-2014, 06:34 PM
This just smacks of breastfeeding in public debates to me. Breasts are a body part. A secondary sexual characteristic, they are like a mans beard. It's ridiculous that they're held in such high esteem that they can even be used as a draw to teenage boys. If people stopped making such a huge deal about it, then they would lose this naughty mysticism that surrounds them. The chick has boobs, there is a classical style bust on this box of a chick with boobs, that shouldn't have to be edited out.

If you took a poll of people who are upset over this I think you would find that there would be a higher percentage of support for a womans right to breastfeed in public or even to go topless in public than the baseline population.

Tinuvas
02-28-2014, 07:16 PM
The opposite of wanton sexuality everywhere, is all women in burkas... I'd prefer to strike a happy medium... Some sexualizing of both sexes, some of both sexes being in burkas. Even when women were more sexually repressed, and were only allowed to wear dresses that covered their ankles, men found ankles incredibly sexy. The more you make them cover up, and make those parts some sacred thing the more they are objectified in the minds of men, or women if the roles were entirely reversed. It is human nature, it's why you're not supposed to reward your children with dessert for finishing their food, but instead offer dessert with everything else. You begin to covet that which is withheld from you. Basic psychology.
Methinks your explanation of basic psychology is extremely oversimplified...I agree with some of it, LOTS of it I don't. There are many studies about the effects of the oversexualization of women that debunk your thoughts.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/11/27/1reasonwhy-women-take-to-twitter-to-talk-about-sexism-in-video-game-industry/ (http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/11/27/1reasonwhy-women-take-to-twitter-to-talk-about-sexism-in-video-game-industry/)

This is an example of some subtle side effects in the video gaming industry in particular

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_objectification (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_objectification)

This talks near the end about objectification's effects on women in general. To summarize: it doesn't help, and actively hurts society, the video game industry, and any and all who deal with it. I don't buy your analysis.




The idea of luck, and getting rewards, and having a lottery is seductive by nature. The figure of lady luck is often sexually suggestive for just that reason. If their lore, and story dictates that, it is not unnecessary.
Luck can be represented in MANY different ways, and I actually think of using 'Lady Luck' style imagery to be quite the genius move, but your idea of necessary isn't mine I think.



It is not plastered everywhere in the game

She and her cute little servants (the “Omens”) will become a recurring thematic element in the pack opening and treasure chest components of the game. Kismet represents luck in the world of Entrath, and we will be telling you more of her story as the game develops.
I read this as saying that while not a central theme, her character will be more than just opening packs. It will be in more than one place in the game...so at what point can we say that she is 'plastered'?

it is not being used to draw in teenagers,
Seriously? You have insight into CZE's marketing models and ad development? You don't think that her image can and will be used in certain markets to improve the bottom line? If she's in the game, she will be fair game to the marketeers. I feel that to suggest otherwise is naive.

it's an aspect of the story you will see once you have already gotten your hands on packs. It is something they will be revealing as part of the lore to us according to cory's blog. How can you call that unnecessary?
I feel that there are better ways and imagery that would improve the game without this controversial imagery. That, by definition, makes it unnecessary.


This just smacks of breastfeeding in public debates to me. Breasts are a body part. A secondary sexual characteristic, they are like a mans beard. It's ridiculous that they're held in such high esteem that they can even be used as a draw to teenage boys. If people stopped making such a huge deal about it, then they would lose this naughty mysticism that surrounds them. The chick has boobs, there is a classical style bust on this box of a chick with boobs, that shouldn't have to be edited out. This has nothing to do with breastfeeding in public. It's kind of the opposite of that. Breasts (especially fake, fantasy stylized ones) ARE used to draw teenage boys (to their detriment). I make a huge deal about it purely to protect this game, society, my family, and our way of life. As shown by many studies and evidences (just a few short examples above), tamping down on oversexualized imagery is a healthy and good thing for society. While you may not feel so, the evidence doesn't seem to support your ideas. Please point me in the direction of any studies that suggest otherwise and I will be glad to amend my point of view.

TL;DR This imagery IS bad for the game and better imagery will make for a better game. And yes, this is important.

Edit: Just for the record, if all women were in burkas, I would be quite put out. I feel Kismet crosses a line that hasn't been crossed yet in this game. I don't like it. I think it can be better.

Thrawn
02-28-2014, 07:45 PM
This thread is becoming more entertaining than the WoW forums are even.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 08:48 PM
You're just wrong, on most counts, This isn't about sexism in the video game industry as a whole, it is one example of an image with sexual tones, not even hyper sexualized. You're once again throwing objectification around. This is not it, read your own articles that you pointed me towards. This is merely a representation of a female god in lore. It is not saying to be this person, it isn't a magazine or billboard to shove in young women's face, it is a tame by societal standards image, there is no nudity, there is no wonton sexual theme, the outfit could cover more, but if the lore idea demands it then they should go with it. Story should not be compromised on these grounds, if it were evocative of anything other than a timeless supernatural beauty then I could get behind your complaints, but it isn't.

Saying that something will be a part of the pack opening experience and even present in the game in other places as a lore opportunity is not plastering it all over their game, no. They do not have her on the key art, they do not have her on any ads I have seen to grab peoples attention. The only time you will see her to our current knowledge is after you have already bought a pack and go to open it, therefore it is not drawing anyone, teenager or no at this point.

The imagery isn't controversial in any real sense. The controversy is entirely that we have no context or backstory for it, it's a contrived worst case scenario nonsensefest of people who have been burned by the gaming industry in the past, however CZE has not been going down that path, the examples of sexuality so far have been quite thin in comparison to any online game I have ever played or seen advertised save something like farmville.

It has everything to do with breastfeeding in public. There are a bunch of men, complaining that something entirely innocuous is somehow offensive to them or others. Thats pretty much what it boils down to in both cases.

This imagery is in no way bad for the game. Hell even if it were plastered all over the place, that is a marketing strategy that has proven to work time and again apparently, because most places do it. So it would likely be better for the game if they went that route. However they're choosing not to.

Rendakor
02-28-2014, 09:04 PM
This thread is becomes more entertaining than the WoW forums are even.Yep, time to break out the popcorn.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 09:30 PM
You're just wrong, on most counts, This isn't about sexism in the video game industry as a whole, it is one example of an image with sexual tones, not even hyper sexualized. You're once again throwing objectification around. This is not it, read your own articles that you pointed me towards. This is merely a representation of a female god in lore. It is not saying to be this person, it isn't a magazine or billboard to shove in young women's face, it is a tame by societal standards image, there is no nudity, there is no wonton sexual theme, the outfit could cover more, but if the lore idea demands it then they should go with it. Story should not be compromised on these grounds, if it were evocative of anything other than a timeless supernatural beauty then I could get behind your complaints, but it isn't.

Saying that something will be a part of the pack opening experience and even present in the game in other places as a lore opportunity is not plastering it all over their game, no. They do not have her on the key art, they do not have her on any ads I have seen to grab peoples attention. The only time you will see her to our current knowledge is after you have already bought a pack and go to open it, therefore it is not drawing anyone, teenager or no at this point.

The imagery isn't controversial in any real sense. The controversy is entirely that we have no context or backstory for it, it's a contrived worst case scenario nonsensefest of people who have been burned by the gaming industry in the past, however CZE has not been going down that path, the examples of sexuality so far have been quite thin in comparison to any online game I have ever played or seen advertised save something like farmville.

It has everything to do with breastfeeding in public. There are a bunch of men, complaining that something entirely innocuous is somehow offensive to them or others. Thats pretty much what it boils down to in both cases.

This imagery is in no way bad for the game. Hell even if it were plastered all over the place, that is a marketing strategy that has proven to work time and again apparently, because most places do it. So it would likely be better for the game if they went that route. However they're choosing not to.

My wife just finished reading your post, and got more and more rage-faced with every sentence. She, who breastfed both of our kids, says you're full of shit. Would you like to tell her she's wrong? This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with breastfeeding, because providing nourishment to children IS what breasts are for. Putting them on tawdry display for titillation or enjoyment is NOT what they are for - it's what our society has decided to make them for (if the woman chooses to do so for her own reasons, of course, that is entirely her decision).

Quoting my wife exactly now: Men telling women they can't breastfeed in public is a direct result of the objectification and over-sexualization of the female body, BECAUSE those men are no longer capable of seeing the breasts as anything other than sexual. You have stated repeatedly that these images are not sexist, offensive, or exploitative, and are not objectifying of women. You don't get to decide this, because you're not a woman. The proper response at this point is to stop claiming that the images are not sexist, and listen to the people who are saying that they are.

Roy_G
02-28-2014, 09:35 PM
The opening packs method is really cool will be a great gold sink and help connect the PVE and PVP economy.

Personaly I looked at the bird of plenty and the cards and not at the breasts and the gold going into the plate.It actually took me reading the discussion to pay attention to that part and I'm a normal straight male,who likes TCG.

It's fine as it.We are mature people and can accpet the fact that females have breasts.It's an art and a nice one and suppse to be as written in this thread seductive.Being overly puritan doesn't help.If people have issues with breasts and the female body cutting all references and censoring every picture and mention of it won't help to deal with people's issues.

It's the same absurd thing that happens with the media with female nipples.It's being censored like everyone that looks will turn
into salt and men's nipples are fine.The over sexualization of the female body is because it is treated the way it is in the culture mainly
the american one.It seems that people seem to think that men only look at women as sex objects and want to have sex with every women and can't control their sex drive.It's the same point of view as ultra religious groups that cover up everything and it doesn't do well
for those people's emotional health.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 09:57 PM
I don't agree with everything you have said Oss, but I don't agree with Gwaer either. There is a lot of sexualisation going on, and it does happen in all meduims. Just look at 50 shades of grey, Game of thrones, Dead or alive games, and sometimes in artwork. The most rampant use of it, is of course, in advertising.

However, I think it depends entirely on the content - a woman that is clothed and not showing a nipple is a lot better than a nude woman covering her breasts, even if more skin is shown in the clothed version - due to the power of suggestion. (Well, that is how my mind works, feel free to disagree.)

But in completely non-sexual situations (like a woman breastfeeding or even giving birth) then I do not see it as sexual at all, and the amount of skin shown becomes completely irrelevant. Breastfeeding is a far cry from sexualised media, and should never be used to compare anything except the differences between themselves - the comparison is useless here.

So Gwaer, you are entirely wrong on that point. I don't know how to word an argument right for this, but if the card opening altar comprised of a nude woman holding a baby (or better, obviously feeding it) then CZE could use as much 'skin' as they wanted, because the intent and design is completely different. However, like Oss has pointed out, a lot of men would be upset by this, and it would start a whole new argument fueled by poor sexual mentalities.

Now while I think the image on the altar itself is mostly fine, it could certainly be changed for the better without denying CZE their creative licence. Same goes for the full art, but unless that becomes a popular part of the game, I don't see it worth the time and effort. I respect the people that think it is far over the line, and I am sure there is a happy middle ground where CZE can be creative and those people don't feel like the game is being overly sexual for the sheer hell of it.

Daer
02-28-2014, 10:57 PM
I'm glad I could be the OP of the worst thread on the forums, thanks guys.

Niedar
03-01-2014, 12:22 AM
It seems that people seem to think that men only look at women as sex objects and want to have sex with every women and can't control their sex drive.It's the same point of view as ultra religious groups that cover up everything and it doesn't do well
for those people's emotional health.

Quite the opposite. It is the game industry that objectifies women in an attempt to attract male players. It does this because it thinks that males can not control themselves and at the first sign of some tits and ass that they will be sure to at least check out the game, if only to see some objectified woman.

It seems almost everyone except for a few in this thread seems to completely ignore why people have a problem with this and instead construct some straw man to tear down such as american culture, prudishness, religion, and breast feeding.

Mr.Funsocks
03-01-2014, 01:07 AM
Oh good lord... there is no defense of this juvenile sexualization in the name of trying to attract juveniles. It's a serious problem, and while I have no problem with a dead-sexy succubus in the art, the utterly pointless boobs are bad. No one's "offended", stop making things up. It's not "offensive" to see boobs. It's just unhealthy to so casually use sexualization of women for no good reason. If you seek to defend it, please go home and let the adults do the talking. Yes, I know, Ad Hominem, but lets be real here: Does the wanton use of boobs that could just as easily have been fully clothed, and still shapely, do anything other than appeal to a sector of manchildren who look at a complete objectification of a woman in a prominent spot in yet another video game?

No, it doesn't. Make her pretty, make her feminine features prominent and shapely, put her on the front of what will be one of the most commonly seen visuals in the game. Don't make her something that exists only to be lurid for literally no other functional reason.

Storm_Fireblade
03-01-2014, 01:18 AM
This thread is becomes more entertaining than the WoW forums are even.

Absolutely. Been a long time since I've been laughing that much.

Malakili
03-01-2014, 01:24 AM
The real problem is that you can't really discuss a problem as complicated/complex as this in an internet forum and expect any kind of actual useful conclusion. It isn't as simple as "x objectifies y." That's part of it, but you're dealing with a pretty big, swirling discourse of gender and sexuality. Neither side has made their case well in this thread, and I suspect that will continue.

funktion
03-01-2014, 02:12 AM
For starters... I've read every sentence of every post in this thread. I can understand where each side/group is coming from and on many points I agree with them although they might be directly clashing with one another.

My opinion would be boiled down to this: Are women only / heavily / primarily being shone in an objectifying light with Hex? Or are there also empowering depictions? Are a majority of the depictions sexualized?

To me I think the bust is over the top, and detracts from the game in a way which would not be happening if it was toned down. Don't get me wrong, I definitely think that lady luck should be seductive... but to me "seductive" also has some slyness to it and I don't really find anything sly about "HEY BOOBS!"

If EVERY picture of a Male character portrayed him with a massive bulge in his pants I would find it odd. I would be thinking "Why did the artist / company have such an obsession with bulging phalus?" Don't mistake me, I'm not saying that every depiction of a female character so far has been all boobs and nothing else, but I find it excessive & unnecessary to the extent which it takes place...

At some point though, people need to stop policing women's bodies (and a lot of other things where "pc" comes into play).

On a completely unrelated note, I'm eagerly awaiting a brutal ass picture of tetalca ripping someone's spine out from the front of their chest... that would be pretty epic... and I'm sure that there are plenty of people that would find it tasteless.

I even contradict myself here once or twice, it's not really a black and white topic though... it's definitely a grey-scale and it comes down to what stories CZE is trying to tell.

QuantumZeruul
03-01-2014, 02:34 AM
I have to say, something completely random, reading over this thread for some reason just brought back the memories of years gone past when Joe Bob Briggs did his pre movie Drive-In Totals for MonsterVision. I can just imagine what his totals for this thread would come up with.

I have to agree with Funktion about the spine ripping though.

ossuary
03-01-2014, 05:13 AM
Part of what I find so jarring about this particular set of imagery IS the very fact that, for the most part, the artwork has been handled tastefully thus far.

Look at Sword Trainer - it's a woman (okay, to be fair, it APPEARS to be a woman - I won't presume to "assign gender identification"), but she is properly and functionally clothed, but still attractive.

Ruby Enchantress: attractive, tasteful, and *gasp* bonus points, they actually included a non-white human character.

Wailing Banshee: the human-looking parts are fairly prominent, and the dress/wrap is form clinging, but everything that ought to be is covered up. Here we see the allure of SOME exposure, instead of the stark and pointless overexposure of lady luck. Similar imagery would be excellent for a siren or dryad-type figure: enticing, promising, but not outright objectification.

Princess Victoria: hey look, she's wearing what appears to be ACTUAL armor, not a silver bikini. Clothes that are functional for what is clearly a warrior-type? Excellent. You can still see that she is an attractive female, with flowing hair, but there is no ridiculous and out of place sexuality on display here.

So the artists of Hex have shown that they are fully capable of showing attractiveness without being hypersexual, objectifying, or exploitative. But Kismet is ALL of these things, to no other ends apparently than to say HEY LOOK BOOBIES. Seriously, what purpose does it serve to show 3/4 of her breasts jutting out of the center of the outfit? Would she really be any less attractive looking if that region were not on display, but was instead covered but still well-proportioned? Suggestive instead of just hanging out there? Couple these blatantly over the top images with the knowledge that they were made by the lead art director, and it becomes troubling. Just because other artwork in the game has been reasonable, doesn't mean we should ignore this, which is over the line. This hypersexual male fantasy crap has no place in the modern world. It's cheap, insulting, and demeaning (to both men and women).

Edit: I am totally on board with Te'Talca getting in on some spine-severing action. Orcs are brutal, their high priest would be brutal too.

MoikPEI
03-01-2014, 10:11 AM
As another point to throw into the mix, what our ideals are for appropriateness doesn't necessarily fly in other cultures. If Hex wants to be an international game, it may need to err on the side of caution.

For example, compare music albumn covers between the west and the middle east. http://www.ukmix.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=100683
Even bare legs are photoshopped to be covered. I'm not saying the game needs to fulfill the lowest common denominator among cultures, just saying there is variation which is best served when tailored.

Tinuvas
03-01-2014, 10:38 AM
The real problem is that you can't really discuss a problem as complicated/complex as this in an internet forum and expect any kind of actual useful conclusion.



I even contradict myself here once or twice, it's not really a black and white topic though... it's definitely a grey-scale and it comes down to what stories CZE is trying to tell.

Yeah. In my world I can be completely right, absolutely correct, and NOT wrong in any way, and it would make no difference to anyone who thinks otherwise. It's the wonderful world of the internet. And I agree that it is NOT a black and white topic. Each one of us has a different view of what is appropriate, and 'right' and 'wrong' are a bit hard to pin down. I do think that the discussion is important though. As CZE creates the feel and look of the game, who will be attracted to it will be locked in to a degree, and I want to make sure that my voice is heard. Everyone that has commented (usefully) has to some degree thought the same thing. That's one of the great joys of being in alpha. We get a say (somewhat).

Also, lots of comments about popcorn etc. They surprise me. I have fully attacked ideas that I disagreed with, but so far this thread hasn't degenerated into a mud-slinging fest. Lots of passion for the topic yes, but personal attacks have been fairly few and far between. I think as long as it stays that way, the discussion is healthy. If that makes you want to break out the treats, then by all means, enjoy!

I still think the art is a bit over the top and a dangerous precedent to set for the game. *shrug*

Thrawn
03-01-2014, 10:52 AM
I'm glad I could be the OP of the worst thread on the forums, thanks guys.

You should get some sort of special title or reward in game imo. Maybe like a special card sleeve with a troll on it or something? It really is an impressively bad thread, even by these forums standards.

Gwaer
03-01-2014, 11:20 AM
I'd be happy to tell your wife she's wrong Oss, but instead I'll let other people make the arguments, so I'm not the one that's full of shit, here you go.

http://broadblogs.com/2010/11/04/men-aren’t-hard-wired-to-find-breasts-attractive/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?scp=1&sq=bonobos%20sex%20study%20blood%20flow&st=cse&_r=0

Those articles address why Americans are fascinated by breasts, and it's entirely because in our culture they're forbidden. There's no debate that can be done about it. That's the terrible truth of the matter. Once it is no longer taboo to have naked breasts around, there will not be a public breastfeeding debate, and no one will even look twice. Though it'll probably take at least 1 generation.


Unfortunately all the articles I can find on different countries breast feeding in public climate contain images of actual boobs that are likely not appropriate for this discussion. So in general I will say all countries that say female bodies are responsible for men's actions or some way blamed or shamed for showing themselves don't allow it. And places where women can be topless it's a non issue obviously.

And finally an article that popped up on Facebook today, that I thought was quite on point.

http://rosalarian.tumblr.com/post/78124344560/feminism-is-having-a-wardrobe-malfunction-does

when I took feminist studies the climate was dominated by people saying what was appropriate for a proper feminist to wear. Thankfully that has improved greatly and a large portion of feminists now realize that it is acceptable to be empowered by wearing less, or nothing. As long as you're ultimately deciding for yourself how to behave.


In closing, I don't get to decide what is right or wrong for women. But neither does your wife, or any other human being on this planet. They can decide what's correct for themselves. Which is what makes a debate like this so ridiculous. It's about a fictional character, wearing less revealing clothes than I can see on a real person at the beach, with boobs smaller than my girlfriends.

MoikPEI
03-01-2014, 11:51 AM
As best I can tell, the issue is that an observable number of people have decided that what's correct for them is less boobage.
As much as it would be progressive to show a bunch of breast real estate, it can turn people off. This is the reality of the marketplace that CZE is trying to enter. There's a demographic share which considers the current representation of Kismet and the Boob Cube as objectionable.

I feel like we'd be better served arguing toward a compromise we can suggest to CZE rather than debating who is right or wrong. Simply acknowledge each other's preferences then try to find something in the middle you can both tolerate (os possibly even both enjoy).

Does anyone feel there is an over-riding necessity for for the current depiction? By that I mean, I'm wondering what the pragmatic value is.

Gwaer
03-01-2014, 12:33 PM
It honestly depends on what the lore is trying to accomplish with the character. I don't care one way or another if it's lore appropriate that she be covered, or get breast reduction surgery. As long as the lore doesn't suffer for it. We know virtually nothing about this character or why it exists in that form. Only that CZE has not taken advantage of sexuality in the past, so if it is somehow useful to do so in this case, then more power to them. If they were doing it all the time I'd potentially be on the other side of this debate, I just think they've earned some latitude on the matter.

Maphalux
03-01-2014, 01:19 PM
Boob argument aside, I have to say I love the pack opening and the treasure chest mini-game. That alone will keep me entertained for hours on end. Can't wait to play around with it.

funktion
03-01-2014, 01:35 PM
As another point to throw into the mix, what our ideals are for appropriateness doesn't necessarily fly in other cultures. If Hex wants to be an international game, it may need to err on the side of caution.

For example, compare music albumn covers between the west and the middle east. http://www.ukmix.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=100683
Even bare legs are photoshopped to be covered. I'm not saying the game needs to fulfill the lowest common denominator among cultures, just saying there is variation which is best served when tailored.

I'm talking about something I don't know a whole lot about here but... I'm pretty sure that all that type of stuff can be taken care of by localization teams. What you're seeing is not necessarily the same picture as someone on the opposite side of the globe.

ossuary
03-01-2014, 04:28 PM
I'd be happy to tell your wife she's wrong Oss, but instead I'll let other people make the arguments, so I'm not the one that's full of shit, here you go.

http://broadblogs.com/2010/11/04/men-aren’t-hard-wired-to-find-breasts-attractive/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?scp=1&sq=bonobos%20sex%20study%20blood%20flow&st=cse&_r=0

Those articles address why Americans are fascinated by breasts, and it's entirely because in our culture they're forbidden. There's no debate that can be done about it. That's the terrible truth of the matter. Once it is no longer taboo to have naked breasts around, there will not be a public breastfeeding debate, and no one will even look twice. Though it'll probably take at least 1 generation.


Unfortunately all the articles I can find on different countries breast feeding in public climate contain images of actual boobs that are likely not appropriate for this discussion. So in general I will say all countries that say female bodies are responsible for men's actions or some way blamed or shamed for showing themselves don't allow it. And places where women can be topless it's a non issue obviously.

And finally an article that popped up on Facebook today, that I thought was quite on point.

http://rosalarian.tumblr.com/post/78124344560/feminism-is-having-a-wardrobe-malfunction-does

when I took feminist studies the climate was dominated by people saying what was appropriate for a proper feminist to wear. Thankfully that has improved greatly and a large portion of feminists now realize that it is acceptable to be empowered by wearing less, or nothing. As long as you're ultimately deciding for yourself how to behave.


In closing, I don't get to decide what is right or wrong for women. But neither does your wife, or any other human being on this planet. They can decide what's correct for themselves. Which is what makes a debate like this so ridiculous. It's about a fictional character, wearing less revealing clothes than I can see on a real person at the beach, with boobs smaller than my girlfriends.

You picked a beautiful hill to die on, Gwaer. Unfortunately, nobody else is standing on that hill. You've done an excellent job of constructing a plausible strawman to knock over, though. Most of the points you've made in this post are pretty much valid, they just have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.

I don't disagree with you that American culture (and the greater Western World in general, really) is weirdly prudish and at the same time over-sexualized. That's kind of the point of what I've been saying. It's a serious problem. One which is exacerbated by continuing to tolerate objectification in media. Women should absolutely be free to breastfeed their children in public, or walk around topless if they so choose, without fear of being leered at or accosted by a bunch of horny repressed manchildren.

What, precisely, does Kismet having gigantic, ridiculous titglobes thrusting out of the middle of her dress have to do with furthering that cause? Nothing, which is why that cause is not part of this conversation. It's exactly this type of tawdry objectification of the female form that helped to create this culture in the first place, and having it used to entice players is cheap, dirty, and demeaning. It's demeaning to women because it continues to use stylized and over-sexual representations of their bodies for the purposes of improving sales (T&A for the sake of T&A, serving no other purpose than to be T&A), and it's demeaning to men because it suggests we're SO weak and easy to manipulate, that the mere site of more fake female flesh will overpower our senses and drive us to spend more by association.

You don't make female anatomy (or male anatomy, for that matter) no longer a taboo subject by continuing to use it for marketing and cheap thrills. You make it no longer taboo by not tolerating its misuse in the first place.

Incidentally, the fact that you felt the need to specifically call out the size of your girlfriend's breasts, as if that proves anything or is even REMOTELY related to this conversation, is just further proof that you yourself are entrenched in the sexualization of said mammalian protuberances. The size of Kismet's rack is not, inherently, a problem (though it is probably a factor). The problem comes from how and why they're being displayed in such a manner. Yes, she is a fictional character, but she is a fictional character using the female form in a demeaning and objectifying manner, for the express purpose of appealing to a certain sector of the market.

A group of mostly white mostly men sat down in a room and designed this imagery with the intentional aim to be attractive to other men, at the expense of women in general by continuing to reduce their bodies to sexual objects to be coveted and enjoyed by any who pay the price of admission. That is the very ESSENCE of objectification and marginalization. It's booth babes. It's Dead Island: Riptide. It should not be tolerated. I don't care if CZE is not the worst offender. They are an offender, and they should be called out for it.

mach
03-01-2014, 06:02 PM
A group of mostly white mostly men sat down in a room and designed this imagery with the intentional aim to be attractive to other men, at the expense of women in general by continuing to reduce their bodies to sexual objects to be coveted and enjoyed by any who pay the price of admission. That is the very ESSENCE of objectification and marginalization. It's booth babes. It's Dead Island: Riptide. It should not be tolerated. I don't care if CZE is not the worst offender. They are an offender, and they should be called out for it.

You don't deny that this kind of stuff works, right? The primary reason that what you decry is so prevalent is because it makes money for those doing it.

This raises an interesting hypothetical. Suppose Hex is close to the line between success and failure. They have a choice to make. They can keep this kind of imagery, which will likely led to the game succeeding. Or they can take the high road and get rid of it, which will likely lead to the game failing.

If this were the objective economic reality, which would you advise them to do?

Niedar
03-01-2014, 06:24 PM
You don't deny that this kind of stuff works, right? The primary reason that what you decry is so prevalent is because it makes money for those doing it.

This raises an interesting hypothetical. Suppose Hex is close to the line between success and failure. They have a choice to make. They can keep this kind of imagery, which will likely led to the game succeeding. Or they can take the high road and get rid of it, which will likely lead to the game failing.

If this were the objective economic reality, which would you advise them to do?

I wouldn't play the game so it wouldn't matter if the game was a success or not. There may be research that shows this type of thing works but I have never come across it. The industry certainly believes it works though.

These type of hypotheticals are really bad though because it is just not based in reality. We know that it is not needed for a game to be a success and in fact probably the majority of the most popular games in the world do not use this tactic.

Daer
03-01-2014, 07:10 PM
A group of mostly white mostly men sat down in a room and designed this imagery with the intentional aim to be attractive to other men, at the expense of women in general by continuing to reduce their bodies to sexual objects to be coveted and enjoyed by any who pay the price of admission.

Do you actually believe this?

chromus
03-01-2014, 07:45 PM
Some people, perhaps heavily influenced by their better halves, don't seem to realize that many women DO enjoy this type of art and are not offended by it in any sort of way whatsoever (many of them mentioned in this very thread). As Gwaer pointed out, one woman does not get to decide what's right/wrong offensive/not offensive objectifying/not objectifying. Also, nobody on this thread can make the conclusion whether is it necessary or unnecessary that the Kismet boobs are on display. We do not yet know the story, we do not yet know the lore.The fact is we know very very little. You can be the judge once you do learn what it's all about. For now, have a little faith in CZE. I'm sure they have heard you...

Gwaer
03-01-2014, 07:46 PM
You also need to reread my last post, because you pretty much entirely missed the point. i pointed out that her breasts aren't unreasonably large. Women have breasts that big, women dress in skimpier clothing. It's not hypersexualized at all. You missed a lot of other points as well. I'm on my cell right now and can't craft one of my extremely wordy posts.

Also, you should look up what it means to use a strawman. If you're going to throw the word around at least use it when it is applicable, if you think women's issues like this are an easy topic to knock over. It's an incredibly complicated issue on which all sides feel they have the moral high ground.

Rendakor
03-01-2014, 11:23 PM
I wouldn't play the game so it wouldn't matter if the game was a success or not. There may be research that shows this type of thing works but I have never come across it. The industry certainly believes it works though.

These type of hypotheticals are really bad though because it is just not based in reality. We know that it is not needed for a game to be a success and in fact probably the majority of the most popular games in the world do not use this tactic.
Sex sells, whether you like to admit it or not.

funktion
03-02-2014, 12:53 AM
You don't deny that this kind of stuff works, right? The primary reason that what you decry is so prevalent is because it makes money for those doing it.

This raises an interesting hypothetical. Suppose Hex is close to the line between success and failure. They have a choice to make. They can keep this kind of imagery, which will likely led to the game succeeding. Or they can take the high road and get rid of it, which will likely lead to the game failing.

If this were the objective economic reality, which would you advise them to do?

It works... to an extent. It works if you are targetting a specific demographic, which makes it an obvious marketting ploy in many cases. That's not an excuse to use it. If your game can't stand on it's own in any way so much so that you need to resort to fanservice just to rake in dollars then your marketting strategy isn't the problem... your shitty game is the problem. There are plenty of dime a dozen games advertised on the sidebar of facebook that clearly lack any substance but are trying to reel college age-ish males in by saying "hey this game has bewbs"

If this were the objective economic reality, I would advise them to not make a shitty game where this was necessary. Take heed, I'm definitely not saying Hex is in this category, but in your hypothetical you put it as such. By resorting to this type of marketting plan you will without a doubt alienate some parts of the population. Sure, a lot of people that are bothered by it will still tolerate it because Hex will be a great game, but at what point are you actually turning off potential customers? You might not be losing much from your core demographics, but the smaller ones which have way more growth potential are going to be the ones getting turned off.

Generally speaking, most developers which use this kind of stuff were never trying to make a AAA game. They knew what they were getting into... "but but Funktion Lollipop Chainsaw was a masterpiece"

Edit: I should say this... I REALLY don't like being marketted to, it is a huge turn off for me. I'd rather the quality of a given product sell me than some assumption the company making it thinks applies to some demographic they believe me to be a part of. With that said, I don't think really all that many people seem to care about this particular aspect (being marketted to) to the same extent which I do. Everything I'm saying could very well just be "white noise"

Gulbech
03-02-2014, 01:55 AM
This whole thread is just sad, cant believe people get so work up because of a single art piece.

DackFayden
03-02-2014, 02:01 AM
You also need to reread my last post, because you pretty much entirely missed the point. i pointed out that her breasts aren't unreasonably large. Women have breasts that big, women dress in skimpier clothing. It's not hypersexualized at all. You missed a lot of other points as well. I'm on my cell right now and can't craft one of my extremely wordy posts.

Also, you should look up what it means to use a strawman. If you're going to throw the word around at least use it when it is applicable, if you think women's issues like this are an easy topic to knock over. It's an incredibly complicated issue on which all sides feel they have the moral high ground.

Gwaer you do have a good point. Women come in all shapes and sizes, from what I've seen in HEX alot of those representations are covered (Lady Eliz, Adamanthian warrior, swordmaster, etc... no fat females though but who cares). From what I've read (and its been hard to keep up with this thread) and considering if this Kismet character is hypersexualized.

Technically she is hypersexualized, you can't really deny that. But what is their goal for the hypersexualization. This is unknown, personally I assume BREAST = MALE$$ but I'm hoping its purely for lore. Like funktion said most people will not be turned off or even care about this and still play the game. But the principle here is what's at stake.

I'll preface by saying CZE is a business and with the way things are going I don't think principle does/should matter to them right now. If this was purely for lore then the question I would raise is "Is that level of breast and sensuality necessary to depict a luck goddess". Gwaer and others pointed out the relation of luck and sex dieties so I see the relation. But I also see an opportunity to add in some tasteful sexuality and appeal to male$. Personally, I fall for that but I don't like that they take advantage of that.

Either way I dont really care and think it can stay at is, but I also think we shouldn't deny there's a strong possibilty they saw an oppurtunity for tasteful sexuality. There are a MILLION ways to depict luck, yet they chose this one. If they're adapting from a source they had the option to not adapt the hypersexualization, but they chose not to.

Verdict: Because CZE had a choice in depiction and they chose the hypersexualized depiction (look at other kismet pics), while from a lore direction it seems tasteful, from current standards of (western-backgroud here) society the depiction they chose was tasteless. CZE could've done better and they chose not to. Will people care? No

Khazrakh
03-02-2014, 02:48 AM
She is fine, she looks good, nothing to see here anymore, just move on guys ;)

Danielius
03-02-2014, 03:03 AM
Here are my personal thoughts on the booster pack opening experience:

When I saw the video, I was very disappointed because the pack opening process was very similar to that of Hearthstone. To be honest, I think it's a (complete) "Hearthstone rip-off" because, just like in Hearthstone:

-At the beginning of the process, we have the booster pack on one far side of the screen and a prominent visual element (made out of stone or stone-like material) at the middle of the screen.

-Then, the player has to "drag and drop" his booster pack into the central element.

-That causes the central element to "activate" and "process" the booster.

-As a result, there's some kind of "explosion" that "releases" the cards from the said booster pack.

-A top-down card can then be clicked to turn it face-up.

-When a card's rarity is high enough, it's indicated by a colorful, glowing border.

Does Cryptozoic want to give its customers the impression that "we don't have enough creative talent to make the pack opening experience completely unique and original, so we loaned the core ideas from a competing digital card game product and propped it up with some custom artwork"? Because if that's not the intention, then the experience should be something that hasn't been done before in the realm of dTCGs; something that, when seen by the developers of Hearthstone, instead of going "hey, they ripped us off", they'd go "that was so awesome, I wish we would've thought of that first".

Like it has been mentioned before in this thread, I too find it "weird" and "bizarre" that the pack opening experience should involve an altar with a fountain that will "spew out" your cards. After all, nobody needs such a contraption in real life to open their card packs, do they? Cory, in his blog, described the tactile experience of pulling the foil apart as thrilling - so why couldn't we just replicate that digitally as closely as we can?

For example, with a "3D booster pack opening simulator" with real-life physics, where you can rip the pack open with your pointer, and then, with your pointer, pull your cards out of the pack one by one. Or throw the whole unopened pack spinning in the air, and then, in a "slow-motion" mode, rip half of it open and watch as all your cards fling out, bouncing at each other as they fly and fall around the screen. (And you could also choose to do the whole thing in zero-g.) "Max Payne-ing" the experience like this shouldn't be too difficult to engineer, since Unity has a built-in physics engine.

I'm not saying that the paragraph above would necessarily be a "good" or "ideal" way to do it, but it was just one short example of how it would be possible to do the process in an original way that would be unique and memorable.

What I did like about the video was the slot machine (that you get to spin after opening the pack). I agree with the concerns mentioned earlier in this thread that some people might feel "compelled" to always put the maximum amount of gold into the slot machine. Hence, Cryptozoic should ensure that there are so good safeguards in place that even players who put max gold in and win nothing ten times in a row wouldn't feel too badly about it. And since it looks like a slot machine, I'd like it to work like a slot machine too: Give players the option to "lock slots" between spins and reduce the number of symbols (but not the amount of rewards) so that a player can "aim" for getting a specific reward. (Because if the whole thing is just supposed to be a "random number generator", then maybe its visual representation should more closely resemble an actual "wheel of fortune".)

Although I have presented criticism in this post, my intention has not been to hurt anyone's feelings. If I have managed to hurt your feelings in any way, you have my most sincere apologies.

Malakili
03-02-2014, 03:15 AM
Frankly I was just hoping for that crinkle sound of opening a pack of cards and then being shown the cards.