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eimerian
02-28-2014, 04:53 AM
Hey

As far as I understand it, some booster packs will turn out to be primal packs when you open them.

I wonder now: What will happen, if one of the packs you open in draft or sealed turn out to be primal?
Will you just use it for drafting and deck-building like a normal booster? (Seems to be an unfair advantage for a guy who opens up a primal pack for a sealed tournament)
Will that be coded to be impossible?
Will your primal back be replaced by a normal booster?

Gulbech
02-28-2014, 04:55 AM
They turn into primal packs, when you buy them,not when you open them. So cant be used for drafts,but sold for much more :-)

Kroan
02-28-2014, 05:15 AM
On an extra note; if you pay your entry to a tournament with only platinum rather than going to the store and buying your packs and using those for the tournament, you will not be able to get a primal pack.

So in short; always buy your packs in the store rather then "acquiring" them by paying for a tournament.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 07:31 AM
Yeah, the way I see it, the full price $7 tournament entry where it gives you your packs at the same time is purely for convenience. You want to join a tournament right this second and can't be bothered to go through any other steps. Almost everyone will buy their packs in advance, just in case they get a primal (which would mean you'd have to buy one more pack to then join a tournament, since you can't bring a primal pack into a tournament).

YourOpponent
02-28-2014, 08:33 AM
Right...you can't bring a primal pack to a tournament (although I think they are considering doing SOME tournaments with primal packs being used for limited play) Anyway...I think in Cory's next blog he is going into more detail about primal packs. I thought the packs could be received as a chance from buying a regular pack at the AH, a single pack from the store, or as a small chance from anything else that would give a regular pack with it instantly becoming a primal pack.

Daer
02-28-2014, 08:40 AM
Buying a regular pack on the AH doesn't give you a chance at a Primal. Someone would have to sell a Primal Pack for you to buy it on the AH.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 09:02 AM
Yeah. Buying from the CZE store, yes. Buying from the AH, no, because that pack has already been purchased and was not primal.

When you buy (or receive) a pack from CZE any time you're NOT starting a tournament, it has a chance to be a primal pack. You will know immediately when you receive it that it's primal, because it will look different and be flagged as primal. But the AH is entirely player-driven, so any regular pack posted there is just a regular pack.

mudkip
02-28-2014, 11:05 AM
I assumed CZE would add some sort of ghost-primal or pack upgrade token for when you buy the packs at the tournament entry? That way if you would have triggered a primal, you could either have your next pack be a primal or upgrade the next pack you buy.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 11:07 AM
I assumed CZE would add some sort of ghost-primal or pack upgrade token for when you buy the packs at the tournament entry? That way if you would have triggered a primal, you could either have your next pack be a primal or upgrade the next pack you buy.

That is a nice idea. As long as the token is account bound, I could definitely see them doing this at some point.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 12:12 PM
That is a nice idea. As long as the token is account bound, I could definitely see them doing this at some point.

Why would it need to be account bound?

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 12:19 PM
Free drafts for life could screw with the economy if there are free tradeable primal pack procs out there. $2 for a primal pack? Players would love that.

At least having to invest some money to get that cash out would keep primals from dropping in value.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 12:23 PM
I assumed CZE would add some sort of ghost-primal or pack upgrade token for when you buy the packs at the tournament entry? That way if you would have triggered a primal, you could either have your next pack be a primal or upgrade the next pack you buy.

No, they've specifically said that if you enter a tournament, there is 0% chance that any packs you buy as part of your entry fee will be primal. This is necessary, for the reasons people below have outlined.

Those free drafts for life would be an even bigger drain on CZE's wallet if the packs going in could all proc free primal upgrades. At least with the current system, those free drafters have to WIN before they have a chance at producing extra primal packs.

We don't want rare and legendary cards to be TOO easy to get ahold of. I want value for rarity, and ROI. :)

Yoss
02-28-2014, 12:42 PM
Free drafts for life could screw with the economy if there are free tradeable primal pack procs out there. $2 for a primal pack? Players would love that.

At least having to invest some money to get that cash out would keep primals from dropping in value.

Sounds a bit melodramatic to me. Would it affect the economy? Sure, every game system choice does. Would it lower the secondary market value of Primal packs? Yes, at least by a small amount because obviously the laws of supply and demand are at work. Would it ruin the market? No, it just bumps up supply of a particular commodity, and the bump probably won't be much. In order for the change in supply from Free drafting to be significant, you have to assume that a large percentage of packs entering the economy are coming from free draft entry. If you assume that, then we have lots of other problems besides the Primal price dropping a little bit on the AH. As in, if no one is paying for packs, then there's no player base to support the game, and Hex is dying.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 12:55 PM
Sounds a bit melodramatic to me. Would it affect the economy? Sure, every game system choice does. Would it lower the secondary market value of Primal packs? Yes, at least by a small amount because obviously the laws of supply and demand are at work. Would it ruin the market? No, it just bumps up supply of a particular commodity, and the bump probably won't be much. In order for the change in supply from Free drafting to be significant, you have to assume that a large percentage of packs entering the economy are coming from free draft entry. If you assume that, then we have lots of other problems besides the Primal price dropping a little bit on the AH. As in, if no one is paying for packs, then there's no player base to support the game, and Hex is dying.

Did I say 'ruin'? No. I said 'screw with', meaning changing things around, and 'dropping in value' which explains itself. I don't think the choice would destroy the value, but I don't think it is a good plan to devalue what is likely to be the most sought after commodity in the whole game - keep it a big draw, make people drool over it. Make it something that is just within reach, but just difficult enough to attain that people have petty squabbles over it in the AH by bidding higher and higher.

I think the free drafts are just a bit cheap and easy when it comes to primal packs, and sealed in general already has a fairly good deal already. Giving tradeable tokens for primal packs only rewards those that have free drafts or can go infinite. Not giving primals would potentially punish those who enter drafts by paying the door price instead of pre-purchasing their boosters, but thats a choice they make at the time.

So I would prefer those players could get primals, it should be account bound if given at all. Not to mention they keep chests etc which can lead to primals as well.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 01:42 PM
To my mind, a game designer should always be trying to protect the newbie from negative decisions. In this case, we have a hidden rule that says "if you pay $7 to draft instead of $1 plus three packs, you're overpaying due to the fact that you give up your Primal roll." A newbie will not know this rule and will pay the penalty. That is bad game design. That newbie will eventually find out the hidden rule and could be rather pissed off. (I've been in this situation in other games. And remember, we're talking real money spent here, not just "oh well, live and learn".)

The flaw is simple to fix as previously stated in the thread. Drop a Primal token into the player's account that can be used to upgrade a regular pack to a primal one. (It seems you agree with me at least to this point, and this is far enough for me to be happy.)

The add on that I'm talking about is that it seems reasonable to make the tokens tradeable, rather than account-bound. However, it really wouldn't bother me that much if they weren't tradeable. In order to "trade" it, you'd just have to go get a regular pack and upgrade it, then trade the pack. (EDIT: And by the way, that would have the same economic effect as making the token tradeable. In other words, it is the existence of this proposed token that is changing the primal supply, not the fact that it is or isn't tradeable.)

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 01:47 PM
Exactly, I think that if a token was given, it should be up to that player to cash it in for a primal, then trade it. It would be newbie proof, and it would remove any 'out there' forms of abuse.

I agree wholeheartedly that making these things newbie friendly without completely hand holding is the best way to angle it. A token does exactly that, but again, I think the power has to be in the hands of the player to get that pack - if they don't want to invest in the pack for whatever reason, then it should stay there.

It should be obvious what the token does, and it should make it clear in the store that you could trade up to a primal by using said token.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 01:50 PM
Works for me.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 02:00 PM
I think that people should be able to make mistakes on occasion, and buying into a game instantly is a tradeoff, if you go through the steps to get your hands on some boosters first, then you have the opportunity to have to spend an extra amount of money on replacing the pack that was a primal, that you now can't use. It's fine for people to buy into the game, and not get a shot at primal packs.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 02:10 PM
A different premise will lead to a different conclusion, obviously. I say newbies should be protected when real money is on the line, you say that's not a priority. The best I can do to resolve that conflict is to invoke the Golden Rule. It won't actually resolve things, but might put things in a different perspective. How would you want to be treated as a newbie? Would you rather be protected as you learn or would you be happy to find out later that you'd screwed up and lost money because of it?

When I'm a newbie, I want game designers to have thought through things to make sure I'm protected while I learn. If I get blind-sided with a hidden rule that makes me feel like I've been an idiot, I am not happy. Even worse if real money were on the line. Thankfully, the times it's happened to me have not been times when real money was spent.

EDIT:
I suppose another solution would be to include this hidden rule in the tutorial somewhere. Then it's less hidden. It's not foolproof the way the token idea would be, but it's better than nothing.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 02:10 PM
Also, for someone who only HAS $7, there needs to be an option to "just" buy into a tournament. If that player bought 3 packs, and one of them was primal, he really could say, "Well fuck, now I can't play a tournament." I know it sounds stupid, but someone with limited resources really could be inconvenienced by getting a primal pack at the exact wrong time (even if they'd be happy to have one normally, or later, RIGHT NOW it could be a problem).

BossHoss
02-28-2014, 02:13 PM
I think that people should be able to make mistakes on occasion, and buying into a game instantly is a tradeoff, if you go through the steps to get your hands on some boosters first, then you have the opportunity to have to spend an extra amount of money on replacing the pack that was a primal, that you now can't use. It's fine for people to buy into the game, and not get a shot at primal packs.

This.

There is something for everyone currently...

You want convenience? Buy the "draft pack...
You pay full price. You forfeit the Primal Pack opportunity.

You want it cheap? Buy off the AH...
You forfeit the Primal Pack. Not the most convenient route.

You want Primal Packs? Buy packs and Plat from the store...
Not the cheapest route. Not the most convenient.

Whatever floats your boat.... If we want a game for everybody then every single detail is not going to be for each individual

BossHoss
02-28-2014, 02:15 PM
Also, for someone who only HAS $7, there needs to be an option to "just" buy into a tournament. If that player bought 3 packs, and one of them was primal, he really could say, "Well fuck, now I can't play a tournament." I know it sounds stupid, but someone with limited resources really could be inconvenienced by getting a primal pack at the exact wrong time (even if they'd be happy to have one normally, or later, RIGHT NOW it could be a problem).

This is such a minor point though. If you dedicated the next 3 hrs to play a tournament then I am sure you can add 15 mins to sell your Primal to someone for another draft set

Yoss
02-28-2014, 02:16 PM
Also, for someone who only HAS $7, there needs to be an option to "just" buy into a tournament. If that player bought 3 packs, and one of them was primal, he really could say, "Well fuck, now I can't play a tournament." I know it sounds stupid, but someone with limited resources really could be inconvenienced by getting a primal pack at the exact wrong time (even if they'd be happy to have one normally, or later, RIGHT NOW it could be a problem).

If you are on a $7 budget, you go to AH to buy your packs, which will be discounted from the CZE retail price due at least in part to loss of your Primal chance.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 02:19 PM
It's not taking advantage of them though. You're saying protect the newbies... I'm saying, from what? So what they missed out on this completely value added feature. That's not something you should be protected from. A simple mention of it in the tutorial, before you sign up for your first limited event or something will more than suffice.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 02:20 PM
This is such a minor point though. If you dedicated the next 3 hrs to play a tournament then I am sure you can add 15 mins to sell your Primal to someone for another draft set

Since the AH will almost certainly not have a Sell It Now feature*, this won't work very well. It's basically saying, "come back tomorrow and you can play".

* I've advocated that we should have this feature, but people don't seem to care. However, here we see yet another example of why such a feature would be useful.

BossHoss
02-28-2014, 02:27 PM
Since the AH will almost certainly not have a Sell It Now feature*, this won't work very well. It's basically saying, "come back tomorrow and you can play".

* I've advocated that we should have this feature, but people don't seem to care. However, here we see yet another example of why such a feature would be useful.

True, but it also then contradicts your previous point (Becomes difficult and time consuming to purchase/win auctions for 3packs on the AH) but advocates your arguments for Buy/Sell it now options in the AH

Yoss
02-28-2014, 02:27 PM
To say that any pack feature is a "completely value added feature" is to miss the point. When a player buys a pack, he is buying everything that pack has to offer, not just 15 cards. When they add more features to a pack for the same $2 price, that does not make the new features free, it simply adjusts the value of all the pre-existing features so that the final value of the total package remains at $2.

In other words, if you pay $2 for a pack and miss out on any feature that is normally offered for that same $2, you miss out on value. There is no debating this point. You can say that you're OK with a newbie losing value due to ignorance, but you cannot deny that value is being lost.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 02:29 PM
There absolutely is debating the point. the primal chance is not a feature of a pack, you don't get it when you're given a pack by anyone other than CZE. It's a value add feature CZE is adding to buying packs from them. And in this one place they can say beneath the buy packs and join limited match button "Packs bought in this fashion do not have a chance to become primal" and problem is solved.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 02:30 PM
Also, for someone who only HAS $7, there needs to be an option to "just" buy into a tournament. If that player bought 3 packs, and one of them was primal, he really could say, "Well fuck, now I can't play a tournament." I know it sounds stupid, but someone with limited resources really could be inconvenienced by getting a primal pack at the exact wrong time (even if they'd be happy to have one normally, or later, RIGHT NOW it could be a problem).

To be fair, the token idea would mean they could get this primal, if they could get $2 together later. Without being screwed out of their sealed or draft game.

Win-win for that person, but I am just interested to see where this discussion goes - who does it hurt to have these packs as a token that has to be redeemed with the cost of a standard pack? Interested to see where the complaints come from (I mean, right now, the idea is giving CZE some extra revenue that it would have otherwise missed out on, while giving players primals they would have otherwise missed out on, without inconveniencing anyone or breaking the system.)

Can I get an idea of the negatives that I might have missed?

Yoss
02-28-2014, 02:30 PM
True, but it also then contradicts your previous point (Becomes difficult and time consuming to purchase/win auctions for 3packs on the AH) but advocates your arguments for Buy/Sell it now options in the AH

I'm not sure I follow you. Why is it diffucult and time consuming to purchase packs on the AH? There will almost certainly be Buy It Now, even in a traditional auction system, so you can just go and buy them more or less instantly. You will presumably pay slightly more for Buy It Now than for an auction, but the choice will be obvious and in full view even to a newbie.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 02:32 PM
It hurts the value of legendary and rare cards. Primal packs already have the potential to skew the value of the set. I think they're a terrible idea in totality. A place where people can choose to buy packs immediately rather than go to the store and lose out on the chance for primals is fine. If lots of people make that choice then that's many potential primals that don't get made, and many rares and legendaries that don't get added to the collective card pool driving set prices down even further.

Yoss, if it's that simple, why have the option to buy packs in the window with the join draft or sealed tournament, just force people to go to the store and buy some packs first. Because it is a convenience feature, and the convenience charge in this case is missing out on the potential to get a primal pack.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 02:36 PM
There absolutely is debating the point.
I can't stop you from trying, if that's what you mean. :)


the primal chance is not a feature of a pack, you don't get it when you're given a pack by anyone other than CZE.
It is a feature of a pack purchased from CZE for $2 at the store. Since that feature will not be available on AH, that means AH prices for non-primal packs will be lower. Furthermore, the reduced value ($2 minus whatever the AH price turns out to be), assuming no other value factors, is precisely equal to the FMV of that primal roll.


It's a value add feature CZE is adding to buying packs from them.
If it is part of the agreement for purchase, then it is not a value add, it is just part of the value that you are paying for. It's great to get more value for your money, but none of it is free. Packing in extra value just means that each of the goods offered has to adjust in value to match the total sale price.


And in this one place they can say beneath the buy packs and join limited match button "Packs bought in this fashion do not have a chance to become primal" and problem is solved.
Yes, this would work.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 02:41 PM
Primal packs [are] a terrible idea in totality.
Good to know the underlying motives. If you hate the idea of Primals, of course you should also hate the idea of slightly increasing their supply in the economy. Which is not an unreasonable position, by the way. It's just that this will have such a small impact on the Primal supply that it would fall within the error bars of any calculations that we'd care to make.


A place where people can choose to buy packs immediately rather than go to the store and lose out on the chance for primals is fine. If lots of people make that choice then that's many potential primals that don't get made, and many rares and legendaries that don't get added to the collective card pool driving set prices down even further.

Yoss, if it's that simple, why have the option to buy packs in the window with the join draft or sealed tournament, just force people to go to the store and buy some packs first. Because it is a convenience feature, and the convenience charge in this case is missing out on the potential to get a primal pack.
As long as the newbies are aware that they are paying more (getting less, actually) for that convenience, I am fine. No hidden rules for newbies to stumble over.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 02:45 PM
It hurts the value of legendary and rare cards. Primal packs already have the potential to skew the value of the set. I think they're a terrible idea in totality. A place where people can choose to buy packs immediately rather than go to the store and lose out on the chance for primals is fine. If lots of people make that choice then that's many potential primals that don't get made, and many rares and legendaries that don't get added to the collective card pool driving set prices down even further.

Yoss, if it's that simple, why have the option to buy packs in the window with the join draft or sealed tournament, just force people to go to the store and buy some packs first. Because it is a convenience feature, and the convenience charge in this case is missing out on the potential to get a primal pack.

Hold on now - why are you assuming that CZE is adding the convenience in exchange for the chance of primals? Is it not a possibility that they simply hadn't thought of a good solution, and therefore had not mentioned a possibility of getting primals by draft and sealed?

Don't jump to conclusions here. They may have wanted to include the packs, and until I hear them say that they didn't, I will belive that they would if they thought they could, without screwing up the system. In fact, they may have thought of this idea and discarded it because it felt like 'nickle and diming' people.

I doubt that they have seriously tossed out the possibility simply on the basis that primals would become more common - if that was an issue, they could slightly tweak the rarity and drop rates to compensate.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 02:58 PM
I was told that there was 0 chance to get a primal when you just pay money to enter a limited tournament. That was some time ago, potentially something has changed, but as I said earlier, a warning on the page where you would buy into the draft should be sufficient. Or, option 2, is not allow people to join a draft without going to get packs from somewhere first.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 03:01 PM
I was told that there was 0 chance to get a primal when you just pay money to enter a limited tournament. That was some time ago, potentially something has changed, but as I said earlier, a warning on the page where you would buy into the draft should be sufficient. Or, option 2, is not allow people to join a draft without going to get packs from somewhere first.

Well, we were all told there was 0 chance. That doesn't mean they never had the idea, or that they wanted to do it but couldn't for whatever reason. I am also equally on board with proper education and warning labels, but I don't see the harm in suggesting a workable possibility.

nicosharp
02-28-2014, 03:02 PM
I always thought the idea of getting a primal pack was awesome. I know it will skew the overall value of cards and packs in general, but it is such an awesome idea. The real challenge will be finding out how truly rare they are to get based on the # of packs purchased.

I also think it would be fun to have either an expensive once a year primal draft, or a phantom primal draft for a lot cheaper, with rewards based on placement.

With the way the pack system works in HEX, I'd suggest draft entry to always require 3 normal packs and $1. Not a $7 straight entry fee into draft pack-less. This is a win-win for CZE and players, as players that purchase the bare minimum and hit a Primal will be happy, and will also buy another pack for their draft (or sealed) entry.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 03:28 PM
Possible solutions we've heard so far:
When joining a draft without bringing your own packs, you still get a primal roll on each pack. For each roll you win, you get some sort of token that you can use later to morph a regular pack into a primal. Sub-options: the token could be account-bound or tradeable.
Add a warning to the at-draft buy-in that tells players about the value that they are losing by not bringing their own packs to the event.
Do not allow players to join without bringing their own packs.


I think any of those would work. I like 1 the best, then 3, and 2 least.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 03:54 PM
Any of those would address the underlying issue (wording on #2 could be tweaked, but yeah, a simple warning / notification would be sufficient without having to alter anything else).

I have no problem with the idea of a primal upgrade token (let us win them extremely rarely on the Wheels of Fate, too!). They can just alter the overall primal drop rate accordingly so it comes out about equal, but it's no longer "punishing" people who buy straight into drafts by having them lose value on those 3 packs. I'm indifferent on whether the token is trade-able or not, either way is fine. It could be an account flag (the next pack you buy from CZE *will* be primal), or it could be a literal token you activate to transform a pack, in which case just have it be an item in your inventory you can use or trade or sell; either way works.

mach
02-28-2014, 04:35 PM
How about packs which are not bought at all (such as prize packs from tournaments)? Will those have a chance at primal?

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 04:42 PM
How about packs which are not bought at all (such as prize packs from tournaments)? Will those have a chance at primal?

Anything generated by CZE has a chance right now, apart from buy-on-entry packs for limited. And perhaps any random rewards in PvE (which I doubt they will have many of, if any).

So prizes, rewards programs (VIP for example) and shop packs all generate primals, and we have heard little on chest rewards but for now lets assume primals exist in packs somewhere.

Niedar
02-28-2014, 04:43 PM
Prizes won in tournaments will, I assume it will be same for any other method.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 05:29 PM
Yes, prize packs can be primal. Just not buy-in packs. They specifically confirmed this at one point.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 05:36 PM
How about packs which are not bought at all (such as prize packs from tournaments)? Will those have a chance at primal?

This question points out another problem with an inconsistent rule: it's confusing. Having some packs from CZE roll primal and others not is confusing. Why not just make it simple? (Options 1 and 3 in post 38 would both fit the bill.)

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 05:40 PM
Another place that specifically says, you can get primals everywhere but here, is educational as well. Might tell people that primals exist that might have missed it otherwise. There are positives and negatives to each and every option, and I don't think we should waste our time pointing out each and every one of them.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 05:43 PM
I don't think we should waste our time pointing out each and every one of them.

Says a person with 3352 posts to one with 1912 posts. :)

I think we both waste plenty of time here. Gotta waste it on sumthin! Better than endlessly debating Kismet's boobs, IMO.

mach
02-28-2014, 05:47 PM
How about changing primals from something a bought pack has a chance of becoming to something a bought pack has a chance of generating?

In other words, if you buy a pack and get lucky, you get 1 normal pack and 1 primal pack instead of just 1 primal pack.

This solves the draft problem, since if you pay for a draft with just plat and proc a primal, you just end up with a primal in your inventory.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 05:55 PM
Says a person with 3352 posts to one with 1912 posts. :)

I think we both waste plenty of time here. Gotta waste it on sumthin! Better than endlessly debating Kismet's boobs, IMO.

Fair enough.


I hate the idea of getting a free pack full of rares and legendaries even more than having that pack replace your normal pack =/ But I'm probably alone in that. I seem to be the only person that wants the cards to actually hold and increase in value.

ossuary
02-28-2014, 06:00 PM
I want that, Gwaer. I've said so many times. But I also recognize that having digital things that hold value for a long time is a hard sell for some people. Sweetening the pot with "fuck yeah, awesome!" primal packs feels like a good way to help people overcome that unwillingness to buy in, and purchase more packs. More packs (and all-rare packs in particular) may mean slightly less value per card, but it also means more players overall, which attracts more players, which increases value... there's an ebb and flow to it.

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 06:00 PM
Fair enough.


I hate the idea of getting a free pack full of rares and legendaries even more than having that pack replace your normal pack =/ But I'm probably alone in that. I seem to be the only person that wants the cards to actually hold and increase in value.

No, I agree. Giving away even more free packs would just be bad for CZE. Currently, we have the store, treasure chests, upgrades, prizes, VIP... Packs are literally going to be flying through the air with the rate CZE is spitting them out. Purely free primals seems bad, especially when that primal could open into a great chest that opens into a new booster, that gives you another primal... 4 boosters and 32 rare and legendary cads for $2 is faaaar too much value.

I think replacing is fine, which is why the token idea is a good middle point - it will replace a normal booster and will have no chance to proc another primal (unless you have godlike chest opening luck maybe?)

Yoss
02-28-2014, 06:23 PM
Updated with idea from post 47:

Possible solutions we've heard so far:
When joining a draft without bringing your own packs, you still get a primal roll on each pack. For each roll you win, you get some sort of token that you can use later to morph a regular pack into a primal. Sub-options: the token could be account-bound or tradeable.
Add a warning to the at-draft buy-in that tells players about the value that they are losing by not bringing their own packs to the event.
Do not allow players to join without bringing their own packs.
Have all primal spawns be separate packs rather than replacement packs. This way it can just drop into your inventory when you proc one.


I think any of those would work. I like 1 the best, then 3, then 4, and 2 least.

YourOpponent
02-28-2014, 08:32 PM
I'd have to agree with Yoss on it being 1,3,4, and 2 for the order of preference.

mach
02-28-2014, 08:35 PM
We're still missing a key piece of information here: just how rare will primal packs be. Do you all think the same solution would be best if the odds were 30:1 and 300:1?

Xenavire
02-28-2014, 09:01 PM
We're still missing a key piece of information here: just how rare will primal packs be. Do you all think the same solution would be best if the odds were 30:1 and 300:1?

But in any of the suggested solutions, the rates could be tweaked to gain the desired rarity. The rarity itself is completely up to CZE to control.

YourOpponent
03-01-2014, 10:04 AM
I think it has been said before that the current rarity of Primal packs is 1/100. If other ways besides buying packs directly from the store were included it would only be natural for that rarity to be increased so that they aren't decreasing their revenue.

ossuary
03-01-2014, 10:20 AM
It has never been said what the rarity of primal packs is. They have specifically refused to answer that question, for the reason that they do not want it to be common knowledge; they prefer it to be a surprise.

Yoss
03-01-2014, 10:25 AM
We're still missing a key piece of information here: just how rare will primal packs be. Do you all think the same solution would be best if the odds were 30:1 and 300:1?

I'm not understanding why the rarity of Primal is relevant. The only thing it would tell us is how much value is lost when you don't get your Primal roll. If Primals are more rare, then the value loss will be smaller. If less rare, the value loss will be larger. It won't change the basic structure and statement that the value loss exists.

For giggles, and at the risk of derailing the thread, here's some of the math. We can just represent the primal rarity as a variable, PP, representing the Primal Percentage (chance of a pack from CZE going Primal). We can divide the retail value (R = $2) into the basic pack value (B) and the primal value (P). The primal value is just B times a primal multiplier (PM ~= 15).

You can see the derivation in the old booster price analysis thread, copied for convenience:



R := retail price
B := AH price of basic booster
P := AH price of primal booster
PP := probability of a new booster being primal
PM := primal multiplier (ratio of P to B)

R = B + PP*P = B + PP*PM*B = B*(1+PP*PM)

Solve for B gives

B = R / (1+PP*PM)

Since the discussion in the current thread is about losing value by purchase "at the door" of Drafting, the number we're interested in is actually R-B (difference between retail and base pack price), which is just PP*PM*B. If we guess that PP is 1%, PM is 15, and B is between $1 and $2, then the value loss is between $0.15 and $0.30 per pack (times three for Drafting three packs). That's as much as a 15% value hit, which is quite large.

Gwaer
03-01-2014, 10:47 AM
And if primals are .01% it's .15 cents. All of that is entirely speculation and not helpful to this conversation. Could be interesting to speculate on primal value at that rarity in another more appropriate thread.

Xtopher
03-01-2014, 08:57 PM
I have to agree with Yoss on this one. A purchased pack should have the same potential benefits whether bought in the store or purchased through a draft entry fee, as long as they end up costing the same. OTOH, if CZE wants to offer a very slight price break for people buying into a draft, along with a pop-up or something that explains why the discount is there, I'd be fine with no chance for primal packs when using that method.

mudkip
03-01-2014, 10:00 PM
Primal rates have intentionally not been reported to give players something to discover for themselves. I don't remember the exact post, but I think Chark said it.

Daer
03-01-2014, 10:36 PM
Since the packs we get from the kickstarter have a chance to be primal, given the number of them, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out the rate.

Xtopher
03-03-2014, 01:21 PM
I was thinking more about this and I really like the token idea. For example, let's say primal packs have a drop rate of 2% (1 in 50). Every time an event is entered and the packs are purchased at the time of entry the player gets 1 token per pack. When they get to 50 tokens a player can redeem them for a primal pack.

There are a number of benefits to this:

* Frees players from the whims of chance regarding gaining primal packs. With tokens you know that after accumulating the requisite number you'll definitely be getting a pack. Players that don't want to risk being part of the unlucky 10% that goes 100 packs without opening a primal (using my example of 1 in 50 packs being primal), won't have to
* Players that like the randomness of primal packs will still be able to get their gambling fix by buying packs individually from the store
* Encourages event participation
* Primal tokens could be used as an alternative currency and in trades
* Provides CZE with another mechanism to promote events (double token Wednesdays ftw!)
* Most importantly it gives players a choice

This is something that's definitely possible and doesn't seem too difficult to program. By preserving what's already being offered and adding more player choice I don't see a downside.

Gwaer
03-03-2014, 01:22 PM
What if primals are 1:1000? Would you still be alright with needing 1000 tokens?

Xtopher
03-03-2014, 02:03 PM
What if primals are 1:1000? Would you still be alright with needing 1000 tokens?
I'd probably like it more so if they were that rare. It would really be a bummer to go 2000+ packs without getting a primal. Sure, on average a player will gain more primal packs over time if they buy per pack given the token cost I've suggested, but if the tokens were tradable that's a large mitigating factor.

The other way to handle tokens is to give a player a token along with his normal pack, if that pack is purchased at the time of event entry and would have been a primal. Then the next time (or whenever) the player buys a pack from the store, he can turn in the token with his purchase and get a primal pack instead. That works too, but I think the former is more elegant and a better deal for CZE, giving them more incentive to do it.

I'd take either, though, since they're both better than what we have currently which is no chance for primal packs if you do the convenient thing and pay at the gate, so to speak, to enter an event. It really just makes no sense to do it that way.

Aradon
03-03-2014, 02:20 PM
On the other hand, at some threshold, players will start realizing that they will *never* accumulate that many tokens. That's already $2000 dollars to get a single primal pack. Most people won't expect to ever get that many, so at least they have the chance to get a primal in the basic form (without tokens). If they aren't willing to spend whatever the threshold ends up at, then they'll have no chance whatsoever of getting a primal pack. Of course it's not probable that they'll get one in the basic form either, but something's better than nothing. I think once people realize that, they'll prefer the fully random implementation.

Depending on what the primal chances are, of course. And don't forget that ever revealing the number of tokens that would be required to 'buy' a primal would also reveal the statistical odds of getting a primal, which they've already said they want to be a surprise.

Yoss
03-03-2014, 02:29 PM
Wait, this is a new token idea. The previous one was a single token that would upgrade a regular pack to a primal one. This new token idea is for a third currency that has to save up for a primal, and would implicitly tell everyone what the exact primal drop rate is because they have to tell you how many tokens it takes to buy a primal. CZE has already said they do not want to reveal the primal rate, so this idea cannot work without CZE changing thier minds on that. Also, primals are supposed to be like the lottery, not something you can save up for; you just have to get lucky.

I like the old token idea best. When you get a pack (any pack, really) from CZE, you roll for primal. If you win, you get a primal token and a basic pack, otherwise you just get a basic pack. The token can convert a basic pack into a primal one. (This is a mild update to the old idea that makes it so that all packs are given out in exactly the same way for consistency.)

Turtlewing
03-05-2014, 02:28 PM
To say that any pack feature is a "completely value added feature" is to miss the point. When a player buys a pack, he is buying everything that pack has to offer, not just 15 cards. When they add more features to a pack for the same $2 price, that does not make the new features free, it simply adjusts the value of all the pre-existing features so that the final value of the total package remains at $2.

In other words, if you pay $2 for a pack and miss out on any feature that is normally offered for that same $2, you miss out on value. There is no debating this point. You can say that you're OK with a newbie losing value due to ignorance, but you cannot deny that value is being lost.

I can deny that value is lost.

In the real world value is subjective as different people gain utility differently from the same events.

If I get a large amount of utility from entering a particular draft and trivial utility from having rare cards, and have a limited budget for buying packs than it is possible for the risk of getting primals in sufficient quantity that I miss my draft out-wieigh the opportunity cost of buying the draft bundle and being guaranteed entry to the draft but missing the primal roll.

A similar argument applies when people talk about how opening packs outside of a draft is "loosing value". They're right unless I consider entering the draft to have an opportunity cost higher than the benefit of a chance to get more packs as prizes/ more rare cards through drafting (for example I don't like the draft format and would rather use the time playing PvE or Constructed).

I don't see anything wrong with the direct draft buy-in bypassing the primal roll. It's essentially paying for connivence, where you give up the primal rolls in exchange for being guaranteed to get fir for purpose packs and not having to come prepared. And for some people that is a net gain in "value".

Turtlewing
03-05-2014, 02:34 PM
Wait, this is a new token idea. The previous one was a single token that would upgrade a regular pack to a primal one. This new token idea is for a third currency that has to save up for a primal, and would implicitly tell everyone what the exact primal drop rate is because they have to tell you how many tokens it takes to buy a primal. CZE has already said they do not want to reveal the primal rate, so this idea cannot work without CZE changing thier minds on that. Also, primals are supposed to be like the lottery, not something you can save up for; you just have to get lucky.

I like the old token idea best. When you get a pack (any pack, really) from CZE, you roll for primal. If you win, you get a primal token and a basic pack, otherwise you just get a basic pack. The token can convert a basic pack into a primal one. (This is a mild update to the old idea that makes it so that all packs are given out in exactly the same way for consistency.)

It's not a terrible idea. However it does make the whole "getting a primal" experience a bit more complex. I'm not sure that it's really worth it. Especially since it could add more opportunities for sub-optimal choices.

For example, if I have some (out of print) set 1 packs lying around and my new set 10 pack gives me a primal token, can I make my set 1 pack a primal?

Gwaer
03-05-2014, 03:12 PM
Well said Turtlewing. Very well put.

Xenavire
03-05-2014, 03:22 PM
Good point. I think the tokens would have to be linked to the set it procced from, and the tokens would expire when the set rotates out, encouraging people to cash them in time.

It would prevent players banking tokens to cash in on a set release.

mudkip
03-05-2014, 03:50 PM
It's essentially paying for convenience

Most people will see it the other way around: It's punishing you for taking a shortcut.

Even if the chance for a primal was 1 in 10,000 it would feel like you're asking me to cut off my arm to not bring my own packs.

Gwaer
03-05-2014, 04:19 PM
Most people will see it the other way around: It's punishing you for taking a shortcut.

Even if the chance for a primal was 1 in 10,000 it would feel like you're asking me to cut off my arm to not bring my own packs.

...That's exactly what paying for convenience means... You don't send a check to the electric company when they can charge you a couple bucks and have the bill automatically paid, etc.

Xtopher
03-05-2014, 04:29 PM
I see no reason for CZE to add a feature making it marginally more convenient to enter a draft that almost no one would use since they could instead go to the store to buy their packs so they have a chance at a primal. I think CZE's trying to do too many things at once and haven't thought everything through, but I'm sure they'll fix this when they get around to it.

I'm a little disappointed, though, in all the strawman roadblocks that some of the longer time posters are trying to throw up in front of the idea. If you don't have an objection that a 10 yr-old can't shoot down after 15 seconds of thought, seriously think about not posting.

Gwaer
03-05-2014, 04:39 PM
Which objections are that xtopher? I very much doubt that almost no one would use it, even with a warning stating that they are losing out on primals, 1 button checkout has been hotly contested in court even thanks to some patent cases. It's powerful enough for many people to have spent a lot of money trying to get their hands on the sole rights to the idea.

mudkip
03-05-2014, 04:49 PM
...That's exactly what paying for convenience means... You don't send a check to the electric company when they can charge you a couple bucks and have the bill automatically paid, etc.

It is the same thing, but it's the perspective difference ie half full vs half empty. The difference is that people won't feel pleased with added value they will feel like they've been cheated and punished.

This is how I would feel if I had paid for a bunch of tournaments and found out later I could have won some free rares by gaining entry in a different way.

Xtopher
03-05-2014, 05:02 PM
That wasn't directed specifically at you, Gwaer. I started my post before your previous post posted.

Issues like saving tokens, what happens to the free draft per week people, whether tokens are tradeable, what kind of token to use, etc. are not insurmountable obstacles to CZE addressing this.

I don't think many would use it -- perhaps no one would use it once they understand what they're potentially losing. If, OTOH, CZE were to offer a small price break (like a nickel per pack) when buying in "at the gate", then I think that's a justification for excluding the possibility of primals. It's still sloppy, though, and a pack purchased from CZE should equal a pack purchased from CZE, regardless of the circumstances.

Scammanator
03-05-2014, 05:04 PM
One thing that I think is missing from this discussion that I'd like to bring up: the existence of free drafts (in that you can't pre-purchase packs for free drafts). Not that I think free drafts are necessarily entitled to primal drops, but it does change the dynamics of some of the suggestions.

mudkip
03-05-2014, 05:22 PM
Issues like saving tokens, what happens to the free draft per week people, whether tokens are tradeable, what kind of token to use, etc. are not insurmountable obstacles to CZE addressing this.

One thing that I think is missing from this discussion that I'd like to bring up: the existence of free drafts (in that you can't pre-purchase packs for free drafts).

Not sure if serious or being funny troll.

Xenavire
03-05-2014, 07:23 PM
Not sure if serious or being funny troll.

Why not? If they have to BUY a pack to get any benefit from the tokens, they are actively contributing to the game (where those free drafts for life may have been enough for them to never need to spend a cent again.) I am not saying they need to be bled dry, but imagine that someone doesn't feel like they need to buy anything anymore, yet still want to contribute - they may not be able to justify sinking in more money.

Primal tokens could change that factor without making them feel ripped off - this was something they would have never got without tokens anyway.

I appreciate what they did, but I doubt they never want to spend another cent on the game just because they got some free drafts. This gives them a nice option that ties in well.

Aradon
03-05-2014, 07:25 PM
Not sure if serious because the previous quote clearly indicated that someone has brought it up, but he lead with "one thing that I think is missing from this discussion."

Not related to 'should free drafts have a chance for primals'

Yoss
03-05-2014, 09:06 PM
I can deny that value is lost.

In the real world value is subjective as different people gain utility differently from the same events.

If I get a large amount of utility from entering a particular draft and trivial utility from having rare cards, and have a limited budget for buying packs than it is possible for the risk of getting primals in sufficient quantity that I miss my draft out-wieigh the opportunity cost of buying the draft bundle and being guaranteed entry to the draft but missing the primal roll.

A similar argument applies when people talk about how opening packs outside of a draft is "loosing value". They're right unless I consider entering the draft to have an opportunity cost higher than the benefit of a chance to get more packs as prizes/ more rare cards through drafting (for example I don't like the draft format and would rather use the time playing PvE or Constructed).

I don't see anything wrong with the direct draft buy-in bypassing the primal roll. It's essentially paying for connivence, where you give up the primal rolls in exchange for being guaranteed to get fir for purpose packs and not having to come prepared. And for some people that is a net gain in "value".

You have reasonable points, but they do not accomplish what your first sentence indicated they would. What you've said here is not equivalent to denying the value loss I spoke of. Instead, you're saying that the primal value loss is offset (for some players) by a perceived value increase from convenience. The value loss still occurs, and in the case of ignorant but frugal players, that value is not replaced by convenience (since they might care about monetary efficiency, not convenience).

Gwaer
03-05-2014, 09:37 PM
Luckily, we can entirely remove the subset of ignorant but frugal people, by putting a warning message right next to the purchase button. Then everyone is free to decide for themselves if they would rather go to the store to buy packs, or instantly enter the tournament without packs, while being fully informed to the consequences of both courses of action.

Xenavire
03-05-2014, 09:51 PM
Luckily, we can entirely remove the subset of ignorant but frugal people, by putting a warning message right next to the purchase button. Then everyone is free to decide for themselves if they would rather go to the store to buy packs, or instantly enter the tournament without packs, while being fully informed to the consequences of both courses of action.

Gwaer, I fully appreciate that you dislike Primal packs, and I don't disagree that a warning label should be used. But we could avoid the issue entirely by implementing the tokens and lowering the overall primal rate to compensate. Plus CZE gets fractionally more money out of the deal.

Not disagreeing with you, just unsure why you refuse to support what seems to be a logical choice (no matter how unlikely it is to be implemented).

Xtopher
03-05-2014, 10:05 PM
Luckily, we can entirely remove the subset of ignorant but frugal people, by putting a warning message right next to the purchase button. Then everyone is free to decide for themselves if they would rather go to the store to buy packs, or instantly enter the tournament without packs, while being fully informed to the consequences of both courses of action.

Luckily, it's not too late for CZE to reconsider a decision they haven't entirely thought through, thereby removing the subset of selfish people that inexplicably want players, in a hurry to draft, denied the opportunity at primal packs.

Really, if you're going to argue that people should have the freedom to choose not to have a chance at a primal pack, you should probably find a different thread where you can make a positive contribution to the community.

Gwaer
03-05-2014, 10:11 PM
I'm going to argue that people are not entitled to this extra perk in all places at all times. It's ridiculous to try to hold a company to that. They are providing an extra, they can choose to provide that extra however they like. I will have quite a lot of free drafts for life, and if I am getting primals out of them, I think that is incredibly unfair to others. It was not promised to me, it was not promised to pro players, and it would have made a lot of people who didn't back at that tier kick themselves. I appreciate that you think it is the right call Xtopher, I disagree, perhaps you should find a thread to make a positive contribution to the community.

Also, once upon a time I was a poor gamer doing drafts, if I could go up and give the guy my money to do a draft, and he said Congrats, you instead get this super awesome pack of greatness, but unfortunately you'll have to buy another pack to draft with, I'd have been torn. It's great winning an extra benefit, but losing out on the opportunity to draft would have sucked.

Adding this token system to get around that seems like even more work that would have to be done before they can monetize. That list is already quite full of things and they have a lot on their plate, so should they have to push back the release of the game even further because some people are particularly greedy? Or frugal, whatever you want to call it, you're missing out on a tiny chance to get a thing, so you can immediately play, that's a totally acceptable trade-off to most people I believe.

Parzival
03-05-2014, 11:26 PM
I don't know, I am really not getting the point.

CZE sells packs in the store, you need three packs which you buy at the store before you can draft. You go to the store and buy packs, you then draft.

If by some chance, you happen to be this mythical broke gamer who happens to be lucky enough to buy a primal, well congrats! All the power in the world to you, you go to the trade chat and yell "I gotz primal!", pretty sure anybody would gladly trade a number of normal packs for your primal. If you are that mythical super frugal, maximiser that cannot bear the thought of losing the primal value then you can find the $2 for another pack.

Sorry, I am really missing this, CZE shouldn't have to develop intricately complicated systems involving tokens, or disclaimers to satisfy a really simple process.

To answer the OP, Primals in drafts/sealed? Doesn't happen, you bring your packs to the table.

shocker455
03-05-2014, 11:44 PM
Games should have as few warning signs as possible. If the game can take care of something it should.

How ever the token system adds alot of confusion, and would require a lot of rules to avoid exploiting them. For example, saving all tokens for when the new set comes out. Sure you could say tokens can only be used on pack A, but what is pack A goes out of print? and etc.

another way would be for the game to roll for Primals each pack , and if it hits, it marks the players account, and the next pack he buys (or gets as prizes) becomes a primal pack.

Gwaer
03-05-2014, 11:45 PM
@Parzival - Yea, you really aren't getting the discussion, it's about the play now, buy 3 packs and enter draft instantly button. I agree, they should just scrap that button entirely, and make people go to the shop to buy packs, or the AH, then we don't have to deal with any of this stuff.

@shocker, might be doable. Though would it stack? I'll likely buy all my packs on the AH, and use my free drafts, or if someone only buys packs at the enter limited event now button If we somehow get a couple primals in back order do the next X packs I buy from the store become primals?

I suppose you could get a notification that you're owed a primal and to go buy a pack from the store to claim it, takes a bit of the wonder out of it, but not the end of the world.

hammer
03-06-2014, 05:54 AM
This is getting silly - what next ? A big disclaimer next to the button stating "warning you can acquire packs cheaper on the auction house" or a disclaimer about value when you open a pack.

When you join a draft instantly you do not get a chance at a primal pack - end of - simplez

if min/max is your game - then I am sure it will be cheaper to ignore primals and buy second hand packs on the auction house. Heck maybe not even draft unless you are good enough to go infinite :P

Xenavire
03-06-2014, 06:16 AM
My personal view is that they should be consistant across the board with primals. Getting them in one place, and not in another, can be confusing, and people will feel ripped off if they realise it too late.

I don't even mind if the token system is global. And it could be implemented at any time - it would just be a perk that limited players didn't start with.

As for the rules around the token, it could be simple. Each set has a token of it's own. You can't redeem a token for another set. When the set is no longer sold, the token is gone for good (with disclaimers to say as much.) And the token gives you an option to upgrade while buying a pack. And the tokens would be account bound.

It would solve all the 'problems' we currently face, and other than being slightly more confusing, has few downsides.

Prophecy
03-06-2014, 06:33 AM
If you really want to make this work then no need for the token if you get lucky on the primal pack spawn, just have it so that the next time you buy a pack from store or win a pack from events it has a 100% guarenteed chance to be primal.

Xenavire
03-06-2014, 07:00 AM
First of all, the idea is to let a person know - the token works the same as an alert. Having it give no alert is even worse than getting them randomly, because you would be denying the player the knowledge - they would have to randomly win free packs in swiss or something if they are a bad player.

It doesn't sit well with me.

Secondly, giving them as prize replacements undermines the idea of getting CZE a few more sales (and to prevent going infinite abuse.) It also sounds harder to code when getting multiple packs than a small shop interface for it.

I would prefer a token for the reasons stated, plus because having something physical removes the chance of abuse (someone could proc a primal just before a new set, or even multiple primals, and 'save' them for a new set release. We already figured out how to stop that with tokens.)

Scammanator
03-06-2014, 07:29 AM
Not sure if serious or being funny troll.

Xtopher posted that while I was still writing my post (posts were only two minutes apart). I wasn't trolling.

Tinuvas
03-06-2014, 07:56 AM
I will have quite a lot of free drafts for life, and if I am getting primals out of them, I think that is incredibly unfair to others. It was not promised to me, it was not promised to pro players, and it would have made a lot of people who didn't back at that tier kick themselves.
Me too. I have free drafts for life, and I don't want the chance to proc a primal out of the deal. Pro players already have enough grumpiness from others about their sweet deal. No need to add fuel to the fire.


Games should have as few warning signs as possible. If the game can take care of something it should.
So much agree with this. Once things are set up, they should just work. If they're fair, BONUS!


...another way would be for the game to roll for Primals each pack , and if it hits, it marks the players account, and the next pack he buys (or gets as prizes) becomes a primal pack.
Especially if this happened behind the scenes, this would make everything fair. No holding tokens, no warning signs, you can easily exclude free drafts, no abuse, easily adjustable if CZE needs to adjust their product output.


First of all, the idea is to let a person know - the token works the same as an alert. Having it give no alert is even worse than getting them randomly, because you would be denying the player the knowledge - they would have to randomly win free packs in swiss or something if they are a bad player.

It doesn't sit well with me.

Secondly, giving them as prize replacements undermines the idea of getting CZE a few more sales (and to prevent going infinite abuse.) It also sounds harder to code when getting multiple packs than a small shop interface for it.

I would prefer a token for the reasons stated, plus because having something physical removes the chance of abuse (someone could proc a primal just before a new set, or even multiple primals, and 'save' them for a new set release. We already figured out how to stop that with tokens.)

Umm, I thought the idea was to make things 'fair' by giving those who bought into a draft have a chance to proc a primal just as those who brought packs to the table do. The need to TELL them that they are going to get a primal works against the luck element of receiving a primal and opens up possibilities of abuse (requiring effort to combat that) among other things. As far as prize replacements, prizes will already have the chance to proc as primals IIRC, so how does that drop CZE sales? The probabilities for a primal proccing can be built in to the process, so everything still fits in with everything else. Tokens create a whole new layer of stuff that needs to be programed in with all of it's associated bug work etc. I don't like that idea at all.

TL;DR
IF you need to make things absolutely fair, tag the account so that the next pack purchased or won procs a primal. Don't tell the player, just do it. Everything else takes too much effort for what it's worth IMHO.

mudkip
03-06-2014, 09:00 AM
Games should have as few warning signs as possible. If the game can take care of something it should.

How ever the token system adds alot of confusion, and would require a lot of rules to avoid exploiting them. For example, saving all tokens for when the new set comes out. Sure you could say tokens can only be used on pack A, but what is pack A goes out of print? and etc.

another way would be for the game to roll for Primals each pack , and if it hits, it marks the players account, and the next pack he buys (or gets as prizes) becomes a primal pack.
I think warnings would be silly, because every time I see it I would yell out "WHY!? Why can't you just X" where X is an idea already suggested in this forum. I don't know why the game would tell me to go jump through a bunch of hoops to get to the almost same result, when there's a bunch of logical solutions. Hint: Don't say "you're paying for convenience" again, I and many others would not see it that way.

If the set goes out of print and someone's token expires, there could be options. Either that's tough luck on their behalf for being slow, or there's some sort of exchange. This is a design choice, there's no wrong option.


Re: Free drafts - does anyone actually believe you should roll for primal with the free entry? I don't!. The free entry is not a $7 gift voucher. You are not buying the packs when you use the free draft. The token is good for the $1 fee and the three vanilla packs, for the sake of entry.


Xtopher posted that while I was still writing my post (posts were only two minutes apart). I wasn't trolling.
It's all good, buddy, I did think that at the time (posts only 2 mins apart) I just thought it was funny timing :)

hex_colin
03-06-2014, 09:51 AM
Re: Free drafts - does anyone actually believe you should roll for primal with the free entry? I don't!. The free entry is not a $7 gift voucher. You are not buying the packs when you use the free draft. The token is good for the $1 fee and the three vanilla packs, for the sake of entry.

Agreed. Legendary cards in particular are supposed to be really difficult to get a hold of. Adding in so many more chances for Primal packs will screw that up for the first block.

On the other hand, Primal packs are probably going to be much rarer than people seem to believe they will be. It'll be an "OMFG I got a Primal pack!!!" moment, rather than an "Oh, I bought X packs, I should get Y Primal packs" moment. Not that I have any inside information about drop rates... :)

Xenavire
03-06-2014, 10:23 AM
Agreed. Legendary cards in particular are supposed to be really difficult to get a hold of. Adding in so many more chances for Primal packs will screw that up for the first block.

On the other hand, Primal packs are probably going to be much rarer than people seem to believe they will be. It'll be an "OMFG I got a Primal pack!!!" moment, rather than an "Oh, I bought X packs, I should get Y Primal packs" moment. Not that I have any inside information about drop rates... :)

As has been mentioned, tweak the rates so that there is no added chance of packs compared to what is currently planned. Problem solved.

Yoss
03-06-2014, 10:50 AM
Updated with idea from post 91:

Possible solutions we've heard so far:
When joining a draft without bringing your own packs, you still get a primal roll on each pack. For each roll you win, you get some sort of token that you can use later to morph a regular pack into a primal. Sub-options: the token could be account-bound or tradeable.
Add a warning to the at-draft buy-in that tells players about the value that they are losing by not bringing their own packs to the event.
Do not allow players to join without bringing their own packs.
Have all primal spawns be separate packs rather than replacement packs. This way it can just drop into your inventory when you proc one.
When joining a draft without bringing your own packs, you still get a primal roll on each pack. For each roll you win, you get an account flag that says your next non-draft pack (store or prize) will be primal.


I think any of those would work. I like 3 the best, then 1, then 5, then 4, and 2 least. (Note, I now think 3 would be best rather than 1. It's far simpler than all the other options and requires negligible extra programming time from CZE.)

ossuary
03-06-2014, 11:04 AM
As has been mentioned, tweak the rates so that there is no added chance of packs compared to what is currently planned. Problem solved.

Not really. For example, allowing free drafts to drop primals in some fashion, coupled with adjusting the global drop rate to compensate, would put SIGNIFICANTLY more of them in the hands of the free drafters than otherwise. This would be viewed as an overall decrease in drop rate for new paying customers, forever, to support people who may or may not be putting any additional money into the pot. In short, this could very well be seen as a major negative in the community as a whole.

Xenavire
03-06-2014, 12:41 PM
Not really. For example, allowing free drafts to drop primals in some fashion, coupled with adjusting the global drop rate to compensate, would put SIGNIFICANTLY more of them in the hands of the free drafters than otherwise. This would be viewed as an overall decrease in drop rate for new paying customers, forever, to support people who may or may not be putting any additional money into the pot. In short, this could very well be seen as a major negative in the community as a whole.

That is why I said that the tokens should be redeemed on purchase, not for prizes. Those free draft for life players could draft free, or they could draft free and buy packs to redeem primals.

I am just as happy making free drafts the exception though. They don't need primals, but I do think they should have a reason to spend money without twisting their arms.

Gwaer
03-06-2014, 12:50 PM
Oh, so there is a place that it's okay for CZE to not provide their promised benefits from packs? That place is just not, you. Got it.

Xenavire
03-06-2014, 12:58 PM
Oh, so there is a place that it's okay for CZE to not provide their promised benefits from packs? That place is just not, you. Got it.

Who are you being snarky to here? I would like to know before I get really upset.

Yoss
03-06-2014, 01:25 PM
Just force players to always bring their own packs. Simple, and inexpensive for dev time, while still addressing the problem.

Tinuvas
03-06-2014, 02:28 PM
...They don't need primals, but I do think they should have a reason to spend money without twisting their arms.

Believe me, I will spend money. Curse me forever, but even with my free drafts I will spend money. Far too much for my own good to be sure. You are right, I don't need my free drafts to proc primals. That would be silly. No arm twisting required.

Xenavire
03-06-2014, 04:13 PM
Believe me, I will spend money. Curse me forever, but even with my free drafts I will spend money. Far too much for my own good to be sure. You are right, I don't need my free drafts to proc primals. That would be silly. No arm twisting required.

Great to see some with this attitude. The one thing that 'broke my heart' during the kickstarter was all the Pro tier players were heavily implying that they were spending lots then so they never would again later.

And with CZE not nickle/diming people, those players basically just bought a lesser version of the Producer tier (obviously I am exaggerating, but lots of them will either only play draft, or will use draft to supply everything for constructed.)

Smart investment, but sad that they seemed to only be doing it so that they didn't ever have to give CZE another cent. Just feels wrong. Maybe I am being too sensitive about it but I fully intend to buy boosters and support CZE, far beyond my king tier.

It would be a big buff the the higher tiers though, all the 'free' primals. Which is why I am torn - I think it makes sense to make it a blanket rule, packs generate primals, but free packs... Well, the dillema is obvious. I have been fighting myself about it from the start of the thread.

mach
03-06-2014, 04:19 PM
Just force players to always bring their own packs. Simple, and inexpensive for dev time, while still addressing the problem.

Making it harder for your customers to give you money is not a smart business decision.

Yoss
03-06-2014, 05:10 PM
Making it harder for your customers to give you money is not a smart business decision.

Getting your product to market sooner is. They need to have the bring-your-own-packs option regardless, so they get that for "free" as far as this conversation is concerned. Making that the only option for now means one less function for CZE to code (the $7 buy option). If they want to put in the $7 entry with tokens later, there'd be nothing to stop them.

mudkip
03-06-2014, 06:29 PM
And with CZE not nickle/diming people, those players basically just bought a lesser version of the Producer tier (obviously I am exaggerating, but lots of them will either only play draft, or will use draft to supply everything for constructed.)

I really like that point, but I don't remember seeing people like that? I'm not a pro at Magic, but can someone tell us whether 150 packs a year is enough to keep up?

CZE may have over-stretched with the KS perks, but I expect and hope that with time the gap between backers and non-backers is reduced. I think Hex will be huge and I'm glad I got my "foot in the door" with the KS, but I also expect that potential new people to the community are welcomed.

To anyone new to the community and not a KS backer: welcome! I hope your enjoyment is on an equal level to any of the KS backers! If it's not, let me know how I can help.

edit: this isn't meant to be a strawman argument; I'm sorry and welcome anyone who says it is.

Gwaer
03-06-2014, 06:32 PM
Nah, that was not an especially prevalent sentiment. Though a couple people did say it. I don't think anyone still active did. Potentially the ones that did were just trolling. I plan on buying $500 of plat day 1.

Xenavire
03-06-2014, 06:38 PM
It was pretty much the first week of KS, people crunching numbers etc... Now that I think about it, I don't hear any regulars acting or talking like that, so hopefully it was a minority that were just being loud at the time.

I feel somewhat better now.

BossHoss
03-06-2014, 08:08 PM
I think I could easily go infinite with help from my KS perks but I also planned on $500 in plat for day one. I will also be littering my bed with Shin'hare plushies, Hex books lining my shelves and to this day I want to subscribe to a physical printed Hexcyclopedia Brittanica of artwork from each block.

Kroan
03-07-2014, 03:17 AM
It was pretty much the first week of KS, people crunching numbers etc... Now that I think about it, I don't hear any regulars acting or talking like that, so hopefully it was a minority that were just being loud at the time.

I feel somewhat better now.
To chime in; I went for 2x Pro Player (later GK) because I love drafting and know what a money sink it can be. I am however not under the illusion that this will be enough and most likely will a) subscribe to the VIP program forever and b) spend more money on just platinum to enter events and/or buy cards from the AH that I am missing for a deck / collection.

In all honesty though, I'm still hoping the two drafts a week will help me save some money in the long run. I would be lying if I would say that getting an awesome deal wasn't one of the reasons that I backed.