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View Full Version : Feeling like your in an MMO, with other people



Purpherb
02-28-2014, 02:37 PM
I know not a lot of info has been revealed about the actual cities and other locales you will be exploring while not running dungeons or PvPing. One thing I am concerned with is that the player will not feel like they are in a world with many other players. I am pretty sure we won't have an actual character walking around in these cities as they seem to be panoramas which we will click on different parts to interact.

How will we know that other players are in the same location as us? Will there simply be a list of everyone that is around my character? Or maybe just a chat room that we all are a part of. One of the big parts of an MMO is interacting with other players by simply hanging around them, trading, etc. I just hope that the game doesn't feel like were in a central lobby until we press a button to go into a dungeon or a PvP match.

Imagine if the released game was similar to how it is now, where we just chat with people and press a button to enter a match. I know that is not likely, but it is hard to imagine how they will pull off the MMO feeling of many players playing together without each of us represented by an animated character that we can each see.

Can anyone shed light on how this will be handled or what the current ideas are? I feel this is necessary to get the MMO feel and not just a central lobby full on instances.

Gwaer
02-28-2014, 02:45 PM
As far as I know, this will be a major hurdle for them to overcome, what I've heard basically is just a local chat where only the people in your area can talk to you, or see you talking. There will obviously be whispers as well, most likely a general chat, too. But you're right that you won't have a body to actually walk around with, and that the feeling of being actively in an mmo with someone instead of just in a lobby is going to be hard to capture.

Tinuvas
02-28-2014, 02:48 PM
Hear hear! This has been a concern of mine as well. I want to feel like I'm in a world with other real people when I am playing the PvE portion of this game. I'd like to see what we can expect in that regard.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 02:48 PM
+1 to the OP.

Xtopher
02-28-2014, 03:13 PM
I've never once envisioned the play experience to be anything like that. Can anyone point me to something CZE has written that describes the experience in terms of feeling like you're in a world populated by more than a list of names and a chat window?

Tinuvas
02-28-2014, 03:25 PM
That's actually part of the point. So far there isn't anything other than a) raids, and b) chat windows to suggest that you aren't just playing a game of spades with really awesome cards. I personally (and based on other posts I'm not alone) feel that is an inferior solution and could be better executed. If it isn't, I still love me some PvE, but the experience with others is a richer one IMHO.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 03:32 PM
Can anyone point me to something CZE has written that describes the experience in terms of feeling like you're in a world populated by more than a list of names and a chat window?


HEX combines the amazing community and roleplaying aspects of a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (MMO) with the compelling collectible and strategic gameplay of a Trading Card Game (TCG) to create an entirely new category of a game, the MMO/TCG.
Emphasis mine.

nicosharp
02-28-2014, 03:37 PM
I don't see this happening, but what I could envision are:

Small instances in towns and dungeons or even on quests that pool groups of 100 or so players together. Players could be represented by avatars (a small selectable list, with some options to customize their avatars look)

Those avatars can be represented on the board based on where they are at in the dungeon/town/etc.

Maybe it could share the progress they've made in the current dungeon or quest, or the deck they are using, and even show a chat bubble above their avatar when they type something in general.

Obviously this view would not work well while you are playing, but maybe could be a toggle-able "Zone" view you could jump to in-between turns to socialize or "stalk", like players in WOW inspecting others with cool gear.

Thrawn
02-28-2014, 03:38 PM
Community is chat, MMORPG is your avatar/mercenary/whatever leveling up as you do raids.

Yoss
02-28-2014, 03:41 PM
Community is chat, MMORPG is your avatar/mercenary/whatever leveling up as you do raids.

I believe the words "everything you'd normally expect from an MMO" have been uttered by Cory at least once. However, I am not Shadowelf with the listing of everything knowable, so I am without a link to the specific interview.

Something to "normally expect from an MMO" is the ability to have a sense of location and population.

Xtopher
02-28-2014, 04:24 PM
Emphasis mine.
I guess I have seen that. I've always written it off as hype, though, and haven't had any expectations regarding it. I can see, though, if that's important to the reason a person's supporting the game why they'd want to know how the game will achieve that goal.

Thrawn
02-28-2014, 07:46 PM
I believe the words "everything you'd normally expect from an MMO" have been uttered by Cory at least once. However, I am not Shadowelf with the listing of everything knowable, so I am without a link to the specific interview.

Something to "normally expect from an MMO" is the ability to have a sense of location and population.

The words beta possibly in September 2013 and maybe even a launch by year end were also uttered by Cory I believe. ;)

nicosharp
02-28-2014, 08:18 PM
The words beta possibly in September 2013 and maybe even a launch by year end were also uttered by Cory I believe. ;)

1479

Svenn
02-28-2014, 09:28 PM
Secret: This game isn't really an "MMORPG". It's a multiplayer online card game with some minor RPG elements, but there isn't a persistent world or anything.

IndigoShade
02-28-2014, 11:10 PM
Secret: This game isn't really an "MMORPG". It's a multiplayer online card game with some minor RPG elements, but there isn't a persistent world or anything.

True, but that doesn't mean people can't make suggestions for improving upon the game in ways they feel would make it somewhat more like an mmo. For one, I know people like to show off their loot in games, so I think it would be cool if their artists used layered images to update your PvE portrait with different equipment. It might be too much work considering the "sheer number of combinatorials"(!), but it would be cool. Actually that would only matter if people could even see your PvE character by mousing over your name in a chat room or something, I guess.

QuantumZeruul
03-01-2014, 02:43 AM
Personally I don't have any problems with MMOs "locations" being completely textual based, but then again I still remember the good ol' years of playing on many a MUD, MUSE, MUSH, and MUCK. I can see "Local" chat being changed based off which Dungeon you are currently running, or the town when doing stuff like trading and crafting, or your local Clan keep, or even your personal keep when you have people running against the decks you have created.

funktion
03-01-2014, 03:38 AM
Maybe I'm having a hard time visualizing what you guys are suggesting but... I don't actually see these things accomplishing what you want them to. Any type of visual prestige stuff seems like it would be something that only you would be seeing, it might be nice to have stuff to show off so that you feel special, but if you're the only one who sees it then it isn't accomplishing what you want.

The rest of the suggestions just seem like glorified chat rooms which actually seperate you from people you might otherwise want to be talking with. Furthermore they're totally artificial, if you're playing a dungeon there isn't much that you could be talking about with anyone else that directly relates to the dungeon. Maybe someone else could be sharing tips that are specific to it, but they're not going to be able to join up with you and help you directly.

QuantumZeruul
03-01-2014, 04:52 AM
The rest of the suggestions just seem like glorified chat rooms which actually seperate you from people you might otherwise want to be talking with. Furthermore they're totally artificial, if you're playing a dungeon there isn't much that you could be talking about with anyone else that directly relates to the dungeon. Maybe someone else could be sharing tips that are specific to it, but they're not going to be able to join up with you and help you directly.
Glorified chat rooms are basically what MUDs were. To be sure, they had and have a lot more, but the fact that they were completely textual did not seem to be a limting factor. I played some MUDs in the day that had signifigantly more depth and features than something like WoW did. As far as helping others directly, since you have to solo Dungeons, that part really would not apply for Hex, but if you are going to have a massive population base (which I think we all want), you need to have some kind of separation. Why not make it zone based?

Besides, in the end, isn't that all Barrens chat is anyhow? A chat room with people doing nothing but talking about stuff that really does not relate to the area that they are in? :)

ossuary
03-01-2014, 05:38 AM
Discworld MUD FTW! The new features are coming out Tuesday.

QuantumZeruul
03-01-2014, 05:51 AM
I was never able to really get into the Discworld MUD, but if I recall correctly, I tried it at one point and said something that I should not have said, or named the beast that should not be named, or something like that, and bad things happened. Or my memory could be faulty :D It's been a long time, but those were the days.

Zomnivore
03-01-2014, 06:14 AM
I'm hoping raids become a big thing, I think tournament raids would also be pretty pimping.

Ai vrs players and then if two players win when they meet up from the bracket they fight a big bad mob together.

Ju66ernaut
03-01-2014, 07:47 AM
I would love to see something reminiscent to Diablo II's chat interface, being able to see character avatars of players who are in the same area. Each race/class combo could have 3 or 4 visual upgrade stages as you level up. (If I remember right 50 is the level cap) there would be your base character model then visual upgrades at 10, 25, 40 and 50. With each upgrade your avatar would be wearing more heroic looking equipment. It would give players more status and something fun to work towards that just a number.

Yoss
03-01-2014, 09:42 AM
there isn't a persistent world or anything.

And why not? They've said there are cities and dungeons and raids, and there's a map of the world that you travel across. Sure seems like a standard MMO world to me.


I would love to see something reminiscent to Diablo II's chat interface, being able to see character avatars of players who are in the same area. Each race/class combo could have 3 or 4 visual upgrade stages as you level up. (If I remember right 50 is the level cap) there would be your base character model then visual upgrades at 10, 25, 40 and 50. With each upgrade your avatar would be wearing more heroic looking equipment. It would give players more status and something fun to work towards that just a number.

This would be cool. It would also be cool if we still have a 50 level class progression. Cory's blog seemed to indicate that they're abandoning a normal levelling system.

Gwaer
03-01-2014, 10:53 AM
There's a map you point and click a destination to, then another piece of art you point and click to interact with. It's more like full throttle, or monkey island. Would you consider those having a persistent world?

the new leveling system seems a lot more fun to me. Let them try it in a release, it can always change back to something more traditional later if it doesn't work out.

Daer
03-01-2014, 11:13 AM
The rest of the suggestions just seem like glorified chat rooms which actually seperate you from people you might otherwise want to be talking with. Furthermore they're totally artificial, if you're playing a dungeon there isn't much that you could be talking about with anyone else that directly relates to the dungeon. Maybe someone else could be sharing tips that are specific to it, but they're not going to be able to join up with you and help you directly.

I'd actually like it if each dungeon had it own chat channel it put you in when you were running it. You could ask for tips on encounters, share bad beats, brag about the awesome loot you are getting.

WoW actually had this in vanilla, not sure if they still do. If you were in a MC or BWL raid you could chat in the general chat and chat with other raids. No one really used it because everyone was chatting in their own raid chat but it was nice to see what guilds were running the raid at the same time and trash talk/brag/shout out to friends. In Hex you'd be alone in the dungeon so chatting with other people doing the same thing would be nice.

Gwaer
03-01-2014, 11:26 AM
It'd be cool if you could share game board states or replays in the local chat so people could see how you were doing.

Thrawn
03-01-2014, 11:38 AM
Walking in stations.

funktion
03-01-2014, 01:29 PM
This would be cool. It would also be cool if we still have a 50 level class progression. Cory's blog seemed to indicate that they're abandoning a normal levelling system.

Having played with the current implementation first hand... I've gotta say having a traditional RPG style levelling system would be really clunky for Hex. It sounds nice, but once you actually start playing with it, it is nowhere near as enjoyable as what they have now. I'm having a hard time putting it into words, but having a levelling system like the one you describe would really feel "forced" it just wouldn't fit with the way they are designing the game.

ossuary
03-01-2014, 01:35 PM
There is no persistent word in Hex because it would require significant resources and development cycles to create one. Maybe it's something that they can add later (I would love it too), so that the PVE side of the game can be more like a "traditional" MMO, but there are more than enough features they already need to get in to make it to launch; this just can't afford to be high on the list for now.

Ju66ernaut
03-01-2014, 02:16 PM
I'll trust on your judgement Funktion.

Maybe I just need to grab the new D III patch and scratch that nostalgic itch. X-)

funktion
03-01-2014, 03:40 PM
Juggernaut: if you haven't played path of exile might wanna give that a shot too, the character customization in it is definitely something else.

Svenn
03-02-2014, 05:44 PM
Juggernaut: if you haven't played path of exile might wanna give that a shot too, the character customization in it is definitely something else.
Second this! PoE is amazing! It's what D3 SHOULD have been. ;) I've been playing it non-stop for the past 2 months or so (after having played back in open beta and taking a break). Mini-expansion coming Wednesday (and it's all free).

Back on topic though, a "local" chat is not a bad idea. It would certainly make it seem more like an actual world. I'd say a local chat and guild chat always available at minimum. You could just have one "General Chat" that would have to be split up into a bunch of different individual rooms otherwise. I do like the idea of the old Diablo style avatars showing up so you can get a sense of who is around you. That would be a neat touch sometime in the future I think.

mudkip
03-02-2014, 09:27 PM
The impression I have is that the MMO aspect will occur outside of the client. The Keep is a good example - that will result in lots of communication and competition between the various Hex communities.

Xtopher
03-03-2014, 01:02 PM
The impression I have is that the MMO aspect will occur outside of the client. The Keep is a good example - that will result in lots of communication and competition between the various Hex communities.
That makes the most sense to me. I'd much prefer the MMO content to be community driven, with CZE providing the framework for a persistent fantasy world. That model works wonderfully in EVE online and it could work here too.

Svenn
03-03-2014, 02:31 PM
The impression I have is that the MMO aspect will occur outside of the client. The Keep is a good example - that will result in lots of communication and competition between the various Hex communities.

That's not really an MMO then. That's a multiplayer game with a community... I mean, not that anything planned currently constitutes an MMO. I absolutely love Hex and what they've got planned, but it really doesn't make sense to me that they're calling it an MMO.

Ju66ernaut
03-03-2014, 03:06 PM
That's not really an MMO then. That's a multiplayer game with a community... I mean, not that anything planned currently constitutes an MMO. I absolutely love Hex and what they've got planned, but it really doesn't make sense to me that they're calling it an MMO.

How would Hex not be an MMO? If I'm playing PvE and in Entrath in a location, like say Bunny Bay or something, and can chat with 20 other players who are also in Bunny Bay, that sounds like an MMO. Especially when I can invite a few others to hop into an instanced raid with me. If I log out of the game, Bunny Bay does not disappear, there will still be those 20 other users in Bunny Bay. That is a persistent world.

bojanglesz
03-03-2014, 03:17 PM
How would Hex not be an MMO? If I'm playing PvE and in Entrath in a location, like say Bunny Bay or something, and can chat with 20 other players who are also in Bunny Bay, that sounds like an MMO. Especially when I can invite a few others to hop into an instanced raid with me. If I log out of the game, Bunny Bay does not disappear, there will still be those 24 other users in Bunny Bay. That is a persistent world.

Just curious then, you would consider Diablo 3 an MMO?

Gwaer
03-03-2014, 03:24 PM
Technically D3 is not similar. In that example, you can create a bunny bay, leave that bunny bay, make another at a different point in the story, etc. If there's just one bunny bay everyone is in, that's very different.

But I agree, Hex as currently understood by us, only qualifies for the literal/original sense of mmo, which is just massively multiplayer online game. Nothing that the term has morphed into with MMORPG's that are the default things that most people think of I think. Muds, Mushes, and MOO's were just different aspects of MMO's though, same will be true with MMOTCG's. CZE will be one of the first to claim that title, so they'll have a lot of input into how it looks.

Yoss
03-03-2014, 04:54 PM
Agreed that Diablo is a bad analogy.

As I've pointed out before, Hex was not advertised as just a generic "MMO" in the pure sense of just meaning massively multiplayer, but an actual MMO (RPG + TCG).


HEX combines the amazing community and roleplaying aspects of a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (MMO) with the compelling collectible and strategic gameplay of a Trading Card Game (TCG) to create an entirely new category of a game, the MMO/TCG.

Emphasis added.

ossuary
03-03-2014, 05:02 PM
I think the key words in that quote are "amazing community and roleplaying aspects." It never actually says "full graphical implementation" or "wander around town with your friends." It just says community, roleplaying (which are, indeed, major features of an MMO game).

Gwaer
03-03-2014, 05:34 PM
^ I've pointed that out before too. It specifically qualifies the aspects they were going for. Not all things mmorpg.

Lorewise
03-03-2014, 11:05 PM
For one, I know people like to show off their loot in games, so I think it would be cool if their artists used layered images to update your PvE portrait with different equipment. It might be too much work considering the "sheer number of combinatorials"(!), but it would be cool.

This is exactly what I don't want. I don't like those kinds of people, and there's no reason for this game to cater to that crowd. There's plenty of those games, and this is actually one of the main reasons I no longer play them.

IndigoShade
03-04-2014, 12:36 AM
So you don't play games where people can show off? Sorry to break it to you, but that kind of already exists in hex anyway. People that spend money on hex will have cards that make people who don't jealous. Alt art, extended art, and foil cards all exist for showing off. Just face it, it's human nature. I was just making the point that it might bring a bit more immersion to the pve segment of the game to be able to sort of see the people around you. It's certainly not a deal breaker for me, but it just seems to me like another way to bridge the gap between tcg and mmo

Gwaer
03-04-2014, 01:04 AM
I agree. The problem is really that you don't have character... You have a keep. You can pick a new champ between every dungeon. I suppose they could have layered keep images and you see a picture of the persons keep instead of an individual. Or you could have an image of a person in your keep be representative of your keep, but it doesn't make much sense if you can't change that image out pretty much whenever you want. =\ it's a tough setup. I can't think of an easy, low resource utilization way out of it. Having to make every piece of gear you could wear have an image component that goes in a profile picture would be no small feat.

DuroNL
03-04-2014, 06:21 AM
Interesting thoughts, also quite looking forward to see what CZE is going to do on this subject...

I guess its quite hard to implement something like walking 3d models, and making 3d environments and stuf, though that would be coolest... i would not mind just some point and click around with a Avatar frame... In the end its still a TCG, and not so much a RPG...
MMO is just Massive Multiplayer Online, meaning alot of people together online playing a game :P... the RPG in MMORPG is based towards the 3d modeled characters and environments...

Though, PvE could be a real suprise for all of us....

Svenn
03-04-2014, 09:49 AM
Technically D3 is not similar. In that example, you can create a bunny bay, leave that bunny bay, make another at a different point in the story, etc. If there's just one bunny bay everyone is in, that's very different.

But I agree, Hex as currently understood by us, only qualifies for the literal/original sense of mmo, which is just massively multiplayer online game. Nothing that the term has morphed into with MMORPG's that are the default things that most people think of I think. Muds, Mushes, and MOO's were just different aspects of MMO's though, same will be true with MMOTCG's. CZE will be one of the first to claim that title, so they'll have a lot of input into how it looks.

It's a lobby system, in the same way as games like Diablo 2 and Guild Wars 1 (which I also don't really consider an "MMO"). It's not much different than most old online multiplayer games from the 90s/early 2000s had and they weren't called MMOs. It definitely has some elements of an MMO, but I think calling it an MMO is just misleading to most people as that implies a lot more than just lots of people online now.

We could argue about the technicalities of the term "MMO" or "MMORPG" all day though, and I will admit that the definition I'm using might not fit with everyone's definition so it's just an opinion.

DuroNL
03-05-2014, 02:35 AM
It's a lobby system, in the same way as games like Diablo 2 and Guild Wars 1 (which I also don't really consider an "MMO"). It's not much different than most old online multiplayer games from the 90s/early 2000s had and they weren't called MMOs. It definitely has some elements of an MMO, but I think calling it an MMO is just misleading to most people as that implies a lot more than just lots of people online now.

We could argue about the technicalities of the term "MMO" or "MMORPG" all day though, and I will admit that the definition I'm using might not fit with everyone's definition so it's just an opinion.

Ofcourse its all a matter of opinion, but its hard to disregard the fact that MMO just simply stands for Massive Multiplayer Online, being online together with a whole lot of other people, but this is where it stops, and then opinion comes in :)... the MMO genre came up with the MMORPG, just to say, look we have an RPG here but you can play the game with hundreds of people, no limitation to the number of people present in a world sort off :P.. but now you see it used for FPS and all kinds of other Genres, probably because the term MMO is hot ^^..

For me MMO is not hanging around in Lobbies with 400 people :P... Though maybe some might consider this to be MMO..
On the other hand i don't think you will be playing with more than 4 other people at once... So when will it truly be an MMO that instead of text and table based lobbies we have a 3d modeled world as a lobby? :P

So it would be interesting to see how CZE is going to implement MMO into the game, and what their opinion is on MMO

Chocmaw
03-05-2014, 03:02 AM
When I saw the dungeon map for Kraken's Cove, I thought the experience would kinda be like Sid Meier's Pirates i.e you don't have a fully detailed 3D character model walking around like WoW, but something representing your character navigating this huge world on the screen. Beneath that there would be a chat interface, maybe modelled along IRC which you use to chat with other people playing through the same map with different channels for whispers, guild chat etc.

That would be enough to qualify as "MMO" for me.

Cheers

Gwaer
03-05-2014, 03:09 AM
I dunno. I think for me, they need to work out some game modes that allow many different people, at least 20, to play with or against one another in a massive battle, that doesn't take forever. They really need to innovate on at least one game mode that is really MMO-Like. In my opinion. I made a huge thread about what those alternate game modes might play like. It's a tall order, and doesn't need to happen by release, just eventually.

Yoss
03-05-2014, 08:52 PM
They have very clearly stated that "MMO" is shorthand for Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. It is not just a generic Massively Multiplayer Online game, it is a RPG. (Said this already in post 39.)

We can debate about what an MMORPG is and how that should apply to Hex, but you cannot reasonably debate that Hex has been advertised as an RPG.

Gwaer
03-05-2014, 09:31 PM
No, they didn't Yoss. They said they were going to take the community elements from an mmorpg, not make this game an mmorpg. This game is a MMOTCG. You won't have a person to run around as. You won't be playing an actual character that moves around in a 3D space.

I'll quote it from the KS page one more time.


From the team that brings you the World of Warcraft Trading Card Game, HEX is a free-to-play game that combines the compelling collectible and strategic game play of a trading card game (TCG) with the amazing community and storytelling aspects of a massively multiplayer online roleplaying game (MMORPG) to create an entirely new gaming experience: the MMO/TCG. We've come so far in pairing these two genres together, and we're asking for your help to take us across the finish line

Community and storytelling aspects, not immersive 3d world to walk around in, and see people standing around. Storytelling aspects are like, quest givers, plot lines etc. Community is self explanatory.

Yoss
03-06-2014, 10:33 AM
If we're quoting KS, they also showed us a 50 level Warrior progression.

Tinuvas
03-06-2014, 10:45 AM
If we're quoting KS, they also showed us a 50 level Warrior progression.

They've obviously changed that as per their later updates. Without further information on the MMO aspects of the game, we can only assume that those elements haven't changed. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison unless I'm missing something.

Yoss
03-06-2014, 11:00 AM
Well, I gave my hundreds of dollars for the MMO RPG/TCG with 8 races and 6 classes, with each class having 50 levels that exist as an overarching progression. I am here because of the PVE idea, not because of the TCG by itself. I already play MTG and am happy with it as far as a TCG can go. I joined Hex because it can go farther than a TCG. Not to trivialize what it takes to make a great TCG (I know it takes lots of work), but I take that part for granted. I expect CZE to do with Hex PvP what WotC does with MTG and I take it as a given. However, the real selling point for Hex is that that huge effort would actually only be HALF of the work involved because there was going to be this awesome, enormous world to explore as an MMORPG. Every decision that reduces the game scope away from the grand vision of a fusion between MTG and WoW makes me sad.

Gwaer
03-06-2014, 11:07 AM
=/ I'm very sorry Yoss, but I never once thought this would be a game with a world to explore as an MMORPG, that's not what they ever said. That's not what I ever thought they said. I think the lore and world will be great to explore as an MMOTCG, that's what I signed up for. There's a video with slides on the hexvault.com website for the dragoncon pve presentation, you should go watch it again for the world/exploration aspects. Even if the class structure has changed since that presentation was done.

Audio
http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/project/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/

Summary, and slideshow that shows node based movement.
http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/


In many ways, if you think about it, having MMORPG like movement doesn't make a whole lot of sense, can you imagine moving around WASD style, and running into an enemy, and then entering a card battle? It really... Detracts from the game in my mind to do it that way. The key should be to take everything from every type of MMO that highlights and draws you into the card battle portion of the game. You can still have a robust storytelling engine without the in world movement, watching others mill about. The biggest issue is that you don't see the others milling about, so there should be other things done that draw attention to the fact that you're playing with thousands of other people. The real question in my mind is what form should those other things take.

Daer
03-06-2014, 11:19 AM
Cory has specifically said several times that there would never be a 3D world to walk around in and explore.

Ju66ernaut
03-06-2014, 11:27 AM
You nailed it on the head for me, Gwaer. We will move through the game via maps and parallax, I believe interactive, vistas of our surroundings. Accompany this with a refined guild/local/trade chat experience, and I am smitten as a kitten O.D.ing on catnip! =^)

Tinuvas
03-06-2014, 11:42 AM
Every decision that reduces the game scope away from the grand vision of a fusion between MTG and WoW makes me sad.

YES!!! and no. While I also paid my hard earned cash for the fusion of PvP and PvE, I also never expected WoW level PvE interactions. It actually made me pause before dropping my $ a number of times. In truth, I needed a Magic level TCG (what I see in the alpha experience is quite good enough for me) and something I could play with my wife, which is PvE. That side I'm still quite concerned about honestly. My wife sits next to me when we play. I don't need a chat interface to talk to her. I want interactions that can only be done in-game (combat, other interactions) that allow me to enjoy being with her while playing. We know (as of right now) that raids will do that. If that's it, I will be sad.

The current leveling concepts that have been revealed (another topic I know) actually work fine for me. If done right (no small task, to be sure) I think it will work better for an RPG style experience then "I've just hit level 5" in truth. It's the other aspects of interaction that have me curious/concerned.

Svenn
03-06-2014, 12:15 PM
Well, I gave my hundreds of dollars for the MMO RPG/TCG with 8 races and 6 classes, with each class having 50 levels that exist as an overarching progression. I am here because of the PVE idea, not because of the TCG by itself. I already play MTG and am happy with it as far as a TCG can go. I joined Hex because it can go farther than a TCG. Not to trivialize what it takes to make a great TCG (I know it takes lots of work), but I take that part for granted. I expect CZE to do with Hex PvP what WotC does with MTG and I take it as a given. However, the real selling point for Hex is that that huge effort would actually only be HALF of the work involved because there was going to be this awesome, enormous world to explore as an MMORPG. Every decision that reduces the game scope away from the grand vision of a fusion between MTG and WoW makes me sad.
The Kickstarter page always said it was essentially a lobby system everywhere. There was never a plan for a 3d world to explore or anything like that, just lobbies where you could group up and do 3 player vs AI fights or go solo to fight PvE decks. That's why I disagree with the assessment of this as an MMO.

mach
03-06-2014, 12:37 PM
In many ways, if you think about it, having MMORPG like movement doesn't make a whole lot of sense, can you imagine moving around WASD style, and running into an enemy, and then entering a card battle? It really... Detracts from the game in my mind to do it that way.

That's how Shandalar worked, which I think is where the idea came from. A lot of people saw the PvE as essentially a modern version of Shandalar.

Gwaer
03-06-2014, 12:40 PM
Right, shandalar was great as a solo game, it worked fantastically. Now add other players, you see them just standing there in card battles? It'd be ridiculous. That's not the game that was pitched, I'd much rather have the story telling components get the extra labor that would be required to develop a 3d game.

mach
03-06-2014, 12:56 PM
Right, shandalar was great as a solo game, it worked fantastically. Now add other players, you see them just standing there in card battles? It'd be ridiculous. That's not the game that was pitched, I'd much rather have the story telling components get the extra labor that would be required to develop a 3d game.

They wouldn't just be standing there, they'd be summoning creatures and casting spells, just like in a traditional MMO.

I know that this isn't where Hex is going. I just think that this is what a true MMOTCG would be. I hope someone will try it some day.

Yoss
03-06-2014, 01:19 PM
(Post 54 was not talking about a 3D world, so I'm not sure why people are poking at that aspect.)


You nailed it on the head for me, Gwaer. We will move through the game via maps and parallax, I believe interactive, vistas of our surroundings. Accompany this with a refined guild/local/trade chat experience, and I am smitten as a kitten O.D.ing on catnip! =^)
This is fine. We were never offered a 3D world, so we shouldn't expect one. I've never said otherwise. What's not fine is saying that this won't be an RPG (for things like levelling).

More stuff I was expecting when I donated:

http://hextcg.com/game/champion/


When you create or play a champion in HEX, it will be one of six possible character classes. When you create your own champion for PVE, all six classes are available for all eight races.

A champion’s class determines a variety of customization options such as what charge power and talents they have access to. As a champion gains levels by completing quests and defeating opponents, you will make talent choices to customize your play experience.

[CLERIC] [RANGER] [WARLOCK] [MAGE] [ROGUE] [WARRIOR]

When clearing the dungeons of HEX, you’ll first choose a player character for your champion. Just like in PVP, your champion has a charge power, but in PVE, your champion increases in level and potency as he or she gains experience. Your champion’s art changes as well as you go from level 1 to 50.

The difficulty increases as you explore Entrath. You’ll pick up cards and equipment along the way to help you in your journey, and your character also learns from those battles. Your champion will increase in power as they reach the various talent tiers. Every 10 levels (starting at level 10), you’ll choose from three different talents unique to your class. These talent choices will include a variety of gameplay altering effects such as start-of-game benefits like additional health, passive effects like increasing the maximum size of your hand, new charge powers, or even the chance to add unique class cards to your deck.

Tinuvas
03-06-2014, 02:31 PM
...I'd much rather have the story telling components get the extra labor that would be required to develop a 3d game.

I agree with this. The world and back story is getting richer by the day (We've all read Cory's latest about the Shin'hare right?). I want more of THAT, but playable.

Ju66ernaut
03-06-2014, 03:30 PM
Your champion will increase in power as they reach the various talent tiers. Every 10 levels (starting at level 10), you’ll choose from three different talents unique to your class. These talent choices will include a variety of gameplay altering effects such as start-of-game benefits like additional health, passive effects like increasing the maximum size of your hand, new charge powers, or even the chance to add unique class cards to your deck.

I feel you here Yoss. I think the change to the leveling system is a good one. At first, when I read Cory's second blog post, I was very fearful of the apparent wipe of the 50 character level system. Then I thought more about it, and I think this change will be much better for replayibility. Rather than leveling your character to cap and running around in God Mode through dungeons, now there will always be constant curved difficulty through each dungeon and should keep farming dungeons challenging and fun.

Yoss
03-06-2014, 05:19 PM
But where is the long-term sense of growth that one expects from an RPG? If the only growth going on is the size of my card/equipment collection, that's not an RPG. To me "constant curved difficulty through each dungeon" sounds like a turn-based strategy game, not an RPG. If you want to be able to have the low-power experience over again, it shouldn't be hard for them to implement an option where you can say "treat me as level X" and turn off all bonuses above that level. (This was previously suggested somewhere.) Alternately, you just start a new character. There are 48 race/class combinations to play through. That should be plenty of replayability without resorting to a silly reset-per-dungeon levelling. Plus there's all the Hard Mode ideas that we posted about last year...

Gwaer
03-06-2014, 05:39 PM
Current RPG's all have the same problem though, only the end game is supported. Something like this with no random encounters and only dungeons makes more sense for each playthrough to increase the power level of your character, which can be accomplished through equipment and cards, while making the leveling process integral to every individual dungeon instead. That way there aren't really early game dungeons that aren't supported.

Yoss
03-06-2014, 05:51 PM
I can get equipment and card growth from PVP; that's not RPG material. PVE needs to have some character building and growth aspects, and they can't be at account level otherwise there's no "start fresh by creating a new character" option.

Dungeons need to have a progression. A f2p guy needs to be able to jump in with his POC deck and be able to make progress. But if every dungeon is the same power level, then that means every dungeon is defeated with just a PVE starter deck. Oh joy, so fun. (sarcasm) No, there must be a progression of things getting harder as you go. That means that a powerful deck/champ/whatever will trivialize early dungeons, and that's OK. That's what Hard Modes (link) are for.

mach
03-06-2014, 06:01 PM
Dungeons need to have a progression. A f2p guy needs to be able to jump in with his POC deck and be able to make progress. But if every dungeon is the same power level, then that means every dungeon is defeated with just a PVE starter deck. Oh joy, so fun. (sarcasm) No, there must be a progression of things getting harder as you go. That means that a powerful deck/champ/whatever will trivialize early dungeons, and that's OK. That's what Hard Modes (link) are for.

Sure, but "progression" is essentially the same thing as power creep. How are you going to avoid 20/20 1-drops being the standard in a few years?

Gwaer
03-06-2014, 06:29 PM
You can absolutely have RPG's without character levels. I used to play a tabletop rpg that had no character levels at all and it kicked ass. RPG's have been done countless ways in the past. As long as the stories are engaging and the progression mechanics they utilize work well for making their gameplay interesting, then it absolutely can qualify as an rpg.

mudkip
03-06-2014, 06:35 PM
Sure, but "progression" is essentially the same thing as power creep. How are you going to avoid 20/20 1-drops being the standard in a few years?

I seriously expect future blocks to include new slots on your character, that add +X starting health, or "All attacks have a +X% chance to do double damage" sort of perks. Bestowments that allow simple jumps in power that can add to progression.

One of the easiest ways to show progression, is to allow you to "bully the bully". You remember that guy (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=2529/son-of-arugal) that fucked you up when you were levelling? If you can go back and one-shot him, that's a good feeling of progression.

funktion
03-06-2014, 08:54 PM
I feel you here Yoss. I think the change to the leveling system is a good one. At first, when I read Cory's second blog post, I was very fearful of the apparent wipe of the 50 character level system. Then I thought more about it, and I think this change will be much better for replayibility. Rather than leveling your character to cap and running around in God Mode through dungeons, now there will always be constant curved difficulty through each dungeon and should keep farming dungeons challenging and fun.

I know we already touched on this a little bit. Better and more MEANINGFUL replayability is definitely the vibe I got from the current system when I got to play it hands on last month.

What I would further expound on is that a lot of the interactivity people are mentioning here might sound fun but the real question to ask is does it make for a more enjoyable experience. Levelling up one mercenary or class with so much time invested that you felt like you'd be at a disadvantage any time you wanted to change decks is really something that I don't think would fit well in a tcg environment. There are definitely some interesting and thought provoking routes they could take as far as character/account progression go, but I really do feel like the traditional "Level up to 50 before you can start to actually play the game" style system would take away from the game rather than add to it.

Yoss
03-06-2014, 09:03 PM
It's an interesting problem, certainly. How does CZE give the RPG feeling of long term progress on your "character" (whatever that might mean for Hex) while still allowing the customization options of a TCG to shine? Furthermore, how does CZE still allow you to create new characters without having to resort to making a new account? (For example, if your account is your character, then you cannot create a new one; you're locked in.)

Gwaer
03-07-2014, 12:02 AM
If your account is your keep, you can have long term progression just from accruing mercs, and beating dungeons on harder modes, having access to more cards and equipment, if that keep doesn't provide any permanent bonuses that can't be toggled off if you don't want to use them, you can start over anytime you like by making a new deck and not using any equipment on it. I honestly think you're too stuck in old rpg mindset, and not open to a new way to play that is the mmotcg. This just feels like certain people in my gaming group when we try out a new table top system, they say things like how can i perfectly emulate the experience of the previous system, and you can try to console them a bit and help them out, but what it really comes down to is that it is new. We'll be seeing something for the first time with fresh eyes. Hopefully it will be awesome, and really highlight the versatility of a TCG. If it isn't they can always do a diablo 3 2.0 patch and make things more mainstream, but I really don't think it will be necessary, what they've come up with just fits the game so much better than the old system.

Showsni
03-07-2014, 04:50 PM
I haven't played many MMORPGs, but the ones I have played were usually hub worlds with instances for dungeons/levels/whatever; and as a fairly solitary person, I'd not usually mind running the instances solo. But the hub worlds is where you'd see a bunch of people; and it was pretty fun just hanging out, chatting, trying to get our emotes to sync up so we were all dancing at the same time, or whatever. I'm perfectly happy with the way Hex has portrayed the dungeons and raids so far. But I am a little worried the hub worlds might be just a bland chatroom. I mean, sure, that's all those MMORPG hubs were, really; walking to shops/levels/blacksmiths/auction houses is nothing that couldn't really be more easily done with a simple menu, and seeing chat bubbles above an avatar's head isn't too much different from seeing text in a chat window. But if all we got was a chat window, it would feel less like an MMORPG to me, if that makes sense.

Not that I have any idea how they could make it better!