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View Full Version : Your thoughts on Random effects on cards that have rotated out?



Blazexdragon
03-03-2014, 07:37 AM
So basically cards like Uzume and Hex engine creating cards that rotated out of the block or even banned cards.

Do you think random cards should be limited or unrestricted in it's pool selection.

I personally would like it to create any card even if it the card has rotated out or (even banned card just for the chaos). I feel like when it's random it should be random all the time in any format. I wouldn't want it to work differently when in standard vs modern.

The only restriction I would like is PVP vs PVE. so it can only create PVP cards in PVP but when in PVE it can create anything.

What are your thoughts.

thomasso
03-03-2014, 08:06 AM
In my opinion banned is banned and shouldn't appear in a game in any way

Thrawn
03-03-2014, 08:18 AM
In PvP it needs to be only legal cards. Who wants to lose a tournament because your opponent got lucky and had a really broken banned or old card come up randomly?

Gwaer
03-03-2014, 08:57 AM
I definitely think it should be any legal card for the format you're playing in.

Kroan
03-03-2014, 01:44 PM
I'm hoping that cards that summon a "random" card will only do so from a pool of cards that are legal in the format you're currently playing.

Kami
03-03-2014, 01:48 PM
I'm hoping that cards that summon a "random" card will only do so from a pool of cards that are legal in the format you're currently playing.

I dunno. The fact that it's random seems to imply that you only have a small percentage chance of getting a card you need/want regardless of it being legal or not in the format you're currently playing.

In fact, having the pool be even larger makes it even more difficult to be useful to you.

Yoss
03-03-2014, 02:21 PM
I think it should pull from everything, even banned cards. You have such a low chance of getting any particular thing, it's not likely to be all that powerful. Most players try to reduce variance in their decks, not increase it. That's why Spike loves cards like Peek and hates cards like Cosmic Transmogrifier.

Malakili
03-04-2014, 05:09 AM
I dunno. The fact that it's random seems to imply that you only have a small percentage chance of getting a card you need/want regardless of it being legal or not in the format you're currently playing.

In fact, having the pool be even larger makes it even more difficult to be useful to you.

Why does that matter at all? Having cards introduced into an environment in which they can no longer be legally included in a deck seems like an obvious problem.

Kroan
03-04-2014, 05:15 AM
I dunno. The fact that it's random seems to imply that you only have a small percentage chance of getting a card you need/want regardless of it being legal or not in the format you're currently playing.

In fact, having the pool be even larger makes it even more difficult to be useful to you.

So, how would you let the card work when PvE is introduced then? Is it able to make PvE cards in PvP? Is it able to make PvE cards in PvE?

mach
03-04-2014, 05:40 AM
I think it should pull from everything, even banned cards. You have such a low chance of getting any particular thing, it's not likely to be all that powerful. Most players try to reduce variance in their decks, not increase it. That's why Spike loves cards like Peek and hates cards like Cosmic Transmogrifier.

Suppose I play an expensive (in terms of monetary value) card, it gets a bunch of cost down effects until it costs 0, then it gets Cosmic Transmogged into a Spectral Lotus. Then the Spectral Lotus irreversibly becomes a Black Tiger. Did I just lose real money? Am I unable to continue my tournament because I now have an illegal deck?

noragar
03-04-2014, 07:56 AM
Suppose I play an expensive (in terms of monetary value) card, it gets a bunch of cost down effects until it costs 0, then it gets Cosmic Transmogged into a Spectral Lotus. Then the Spectral Lotus irreversibly becomes a Black Tiger. Did I just lose real money?

a. Wouldn't you have the option of just not popping the Spectral Lotus?

b. Even if it were to happen, wouldn't it be more than balanced out by the much more common scenario -

Suppose I play a worthless common (in terms of monetary value) card, it gets a single cost down effect until it costs 0, then it gets Cosmic Transmogged into a Spectral Lotus. Then the Spectral Lotus irreversibly becomes a Black Tiger. Did I just gain real money?

Freebird_Falcon
03-04-2014, 07:59 AM
They've already stated Lotus won't have any funky interactions going on which leads me to believe that if this random effect isn't already limited to pvp cards only, Lotus would be either an excluded card or the version that this card could randomly create would be one with a temporary transform effect. I imagine it will also be a Shapeshifter type so as to not be a target for Doppelgadget

DuroNL
03-05-2014, 05:12 AM
I like the idea of randomly generating everything, but i think a banned card should be considered as such and won't be generated in a PVP match...

Perhaps in PvE anything goes... dont mind it that much in there :)

Turtlewing
03-05-2014, 01:44 PM
I definitely think it should be any legal card for the format you're playing in.

This.

I can't think of any good reason to allow random cards to pull illegal cards into your format.

Formats restrict what cards are legal for a reason and the long term result of the random cards not respecting that will just be the random cards getting banned from most formats.

Xenavire
03-05-2014, 01:52 PM
This.

I can't think of any good reason to allow random cards to pull illegal cards into your format.

Formats restrict what cards are legal for a reason and the long term result of the random cards not respecting that will just be the random cards getting banned from most formats.

Agreed - barring PvE. PvE should always be the exception to the rule. But all cards should be legal in PvE, but IF there were ever bans, those should be valid for random effects.

Turtlewing
03-05-2014, 02:39 PM
Agreed - barring PvE. PvE should always be the exception to the rule. But all cards should be legal in PvE, but IF there were ever bans, those should be valid for random effects.

Why?

If something is gonzo enough that it has to be banned from PvE why would you want it showing up from random effects?

PvE should be the hardest format to get banned from but in the event that something does get banned I don't see any good from leaving a loophole to bypass the ban.

Xenavire
03-05-2014, 03:04 PM
Because the chances of pulling that card would be minuscule, on a good day. Plus there are no rankings, so it wouldn't upset the balance like a banned card would when it is able to be in every deck.

Remember, it will be pulling from PvE, PvP, and probably from event promotionals (non-AA), so after the first few sets, we are talking about thousands of cards. After a few years, when a card is likely to find a broken combo and be banned, we will be talking about tens of thousands.

Beating a raid boss with a one in thousands lucky pull (especially if it might require a combo to even be worthwhile) will happen so rarely it wont be worth noting.

Unlike in PvP, which will have a more limited pool, and a lower power level and more delicate balance. And the rankings, which should not be screwed up by repeated dumb luck.

Gwaer
03-05-2014, 03:10 PM
I think it will be so rare that it will absolutely be worth noting. As long as it is rare enough that it doesn't diminish boss kills, then that's fine, but imagine an encounter so difficult no one has beaten it for a few weeks, and then the first person to crack it does so because he drew a banned card, and he gets the world first achievement? That'd be awful I think =/

Xenavire
03-05-2014, 03:19 PM
I think it will be so rare that it will absolutely be worth noting. As long as it is rare enough that it doesn't diminish boss kills, then that's fine, but imagine an encounter so difficult no one has beaten it for a few weeks, and then the first person to crack it does so because he drew a banned card, and he gets the world first achievement? That'd be awful I think =/

If there are world firsts. And if there are, then the situation and solution both change. So in that case, banned should be banned, no exceptions.

Leingod
03-06-2014, 01:59 AM
In a tournament, it should definitely be legal only. If possible though, I'd love to see it be able to tell you were in a casual game and open up the list to everything.

meetthefuture
03-06-2014, 02:13 AM
I definitely think it should be any legal card for the format you're playing in.
^
Otherwise it should be banned from competitive play for life

Patrigan
03-06-2014, 02:43 AM
if we're starting to ban cards from PvE as well as PvP, then why bother still having banned cards at all? Why not use erratas?

This is why I don't understand why people are so against errata...

DackFayden
03-06-2014, 03:12 AM
I would be in favor of keeping the pool for random cards as ALL possible cards for PVP and PVE. PVE-wise seems we all agree anything goes

In PVP I'd favor allowing all because, like many people pointed out, when the pool is massive is that 1/60 chance of a broken card going to get a card banned? or maybe be seen as an incentive to play it. I think there does need to be a balance between deciding when a card is too strong and when a banning is just making one more useless card for limited/constructed. I don't think unfavorable odds is that line.

Also from my flawed understanding of errata: Is errata changing how a card functions? i.e. nerfing/buffing/fixing a card. If so I think people might be against it because it'll change the value of their card.

meetthefuture
03-06-2014, 04:25 AM
is that 1/60 chance of a broken card going to get a card banned?
When the chance is greater than zero - it is unacceptable. There's no excuse for the possibility of bringing the banned card out in competitive play