PDA

View Full Version : Save deck in Sealed and Draft shouldn't mean "ready".



Slish
03-14-2014, 05:35 AM
Like title says. I think these should be two different buttons/options.

When making a deck in sealed/draft, save deck should be used to save your progress and not lose anything in case something happens.
A different ready button (which can only be clicked after you saved deck) would be nice.

Just a minor thing I suppose but this is how it should be in the end in my opinion.

Xenavire
03-14-2014, 06:48 AM
Like title says. I think these should be two different buttons/options.

When making a deck in sealed/draft, save deck should be used to save your progress and not lose anything in case something happens.
A different ready button (which can only be clicked after you saved deck) would be nice.

Just a minor thing I suppose but this is how it should be in the end in my opinion.

Agree, this is needed at launch. Everyone currently playing should know how it currently works, so no worries there.

Scammanator
03-14-2014, 06:56 AM
I agree.

"Save" is one of those words that most games encourage you to do as often as possible. That big blue save button is far too tempting to press before you're ready. Pretty much everyone is likely to have at least one bad experience before learning the lesson of "Don't save until you're done."

But I can wait until limited tournament UI is in its final form before a "ready" button is implemented.

Xenavire
03-14-2014, 07:10 AM
I agree.

"Save" is one of those words that most games encourage you to do as often as possible. That big blue save button is far too tempting to press before you're ready. Pretty much everyone is likely to have at least one bad experience before learning the lesson of "Don't save until you're done."

But I can wait until limited tournament UI is in its final form before a "ready" button is implemented.

Actually, I haven't, but I heard second hand about the problem and never let myself fall into the trap. Although one time I did forget sockets, but that was just stupidity.

Disordia
03-14-2014, 08:10 AM
Lol don't be so quick to save a deck you aren't ready to save. The tournament won't start if you are the only one still building. It'll wait until your entire time runs out. When you're ready to go, hit save. Simple as that. Just say that somewhere in the draft intro and you're good. No need to create extra work and superfluous buttons/functionality.

jtatta
03-14-2014, 09:24 AM
Magic online only has one button as well. It really isn't a big deal. Just Disordia said, just don't save until you're ready. If that means taking a step back and reexamining the deck then so be it. Even still, you can re-save the deck as many times as you'd like until you're the last person who clicks "save deck."

I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong, I'm just saying that it's a bit excessive to have an extra button that could just cause more confusion.

Yoss
03-14-2014, 09:41 AM
I agree with the OP.

jtatta
03-14-2014, 09:42 AM
I agree with the OP.

Very insightful. Thank you for your input as always.

Yoss
03-14-2014, 09:54 AM
Very insightful. Thank you for your input as always.

Sarcasm and personal attacks are so useful to this community...

Mahes
03-14-2014, 09:59 AM
Magic online only has one button as well. It really isn't a big deal. Just Disordia said, just don't save until you're ready. If that means taking a step back and reexamining the deck then so be it. Even still, you can re-save the deck as many times as you'd like until you're the last person who clicks "save deck."

Another idea would be to add in a verification function that works like this.

I save my deck, but I realize that perhaps I need to make a change. As I go to make the change the system starts. Since there is no way to yell/speak to the person across from me, there is no way to tell when the other players are also ready. The save does not show me what other players have saved.

To get around this, just add in a verification button that everyone presses when all have saved. This also allows a person to get up from the computer once they have saved, instead of sitting there for the rest of the timer in the hopes that everyone is awesome at the game and thus ready in 5 minutes.

bojanglesz
03-14-2014, 10:03 AM
Very insightful. Thank you for your input as always.

Very insightful. Thanks for your input as always.

jtatta
03-14-2014, 10:12 AM
Look, I'll admit that my response was a bit harsh. Honestly, it was just frustration because 90% of the things on these forums are ridiculous comments or trolling. My point was that it does nothing at all to just say "I agree with the OP" and not say why. The topic itself is pretty silly anyway. I understand that the majority of players are very casual but it's really not difficult to understand that a save deck button means that you're ready to battle. Like I stated, you can continue to re-save your deck until everyone else has saved. Just adding an extra button isn't going to accomplish anything other than more confusion. If you disconnect, it's not very difficult to remember the 23 cards that you added to your deck.

I get it, I'm much more competitive and far less casual than the average player. That said, I don't think that I'm exponentially more intelligent and am the only one who can figure out "ready" means anything other than "I'm ready to play."

Off-topic the other ridiculous topic of discussion is the time limit on draft picks. In any professional level event that I've ever played in, you have the same time limits the select each pick. It's actually even easier online because you don't have to worry about laying the cards a certain way for the person on your left/right. Casual is casual but something has to give.

So anyway, rant aside, I apologize for my comment. I'm just looking for constructive responses and it seems like it's becoming an Easter egg hunt trying to find them recently,

Slish
03-14-2014, 10:24 AM
Well, first of all, thanks for calling the topic silly jtatta.

It seems this rather innocent topic even creates strong enemies. I guess this is my last time posting a topic like this here.

Like. Cmon. It's just a suggestion for like a checkmark when the game is released. A ready checkmark. I also stated an argument why. No need to call each other out suddenly. Totally disappointed by the responses here. I feel afraid to post something new.


Anyway, if people find this totally stupid, silly, dumb (thats how it seems to be judging some responses). Then nevermind. Please close this topic.

jtatta
03-14-2014, 10:28 AM
/shrug

If you got offended by what I said you're going to have a rough time perusing the internet. Please, continue to provide valuable feedback. Don't let me rain on the parade for expressing my opinion.

Leingod
03-14-2014, 10:28 AM
To be fair, regardless of how other games of a similar nature to Hex work, I think a separate ready button would likely be more intuitive for many. Especially since, as people have mentioned, saving tends to be thought of as more of a 'do it when you get a spare moment' type of thing in just about everything else on a computer. I'm sure the game would do fine with just Save, but it certainly couldn't hurt and is a decent suggestion for making the game more intuitive for beginners.

jtatta
03-14-2014, 10:36 AM
To be fair, regardless of how other games of a similar nature to Hex work, I think a separate ready button would likely be more intuitive for many. Especially since, as people have mentioned, saving tends to be thought of as more of a 'do it when you get a spare moment' type of thing in just about everything else on a computer. I'm sure the game would do fine with just Save, but it certainly couldn't hurt and is a decent suggestion for making the game more intuitive for beginners.

Lets also consider the alternative scenario. You're a new player that just bought into Hex. You draft because opening packs is fun and so is playing games with limited card pools. You build your deck and see two buttons; "Save Deck," and "I'm ready." Are you going to press both buttons? I wouldn't. I would just hit "Im ready" because I built my deck and I'm ready to battle. So now you have to make that button also save your deck because if not the game will think that you didn't build a deck and will just make you battle with all of the cards you drafted. If it auto saves then it makes the "Save Deck" button a bit redundant doesn't it? If you're required to use both features players might also forget that and just sit there as the timer ticks down.

It might be a quality of life change for you but for others it can cause more confusion than actual help.

Disordia
03-14-2014, 10:44 AM
The games been going fine for 15 years with a save button. Will probably continue to do so. There's not much of a learning curve on what a button does.

Jyndreytu
03-14-2014, 10:45 AM
The games been going fine for 15 years with a save button. Will probably continue to do so. There's not much of a learning curve on what a button does.

Sun still needs nerfed.

GrinningBuddha
03-14-2014, 10:49 AM
A simple rename of the button from "Save" to "Submit" or "Confirm Deck" would probably go a long way to appease those who feel the current UI is confusing.

jtatta
03-14-2014, 10:52 AM
A simple rename of the button from "Save" to "Submit" or "Confirm Deck" would probably go a long way to appease those who feel the current UI is confusing.

Oh my God. This. Just marry me now and have my babies.

IndigoShade
03-14-2014, 10:56 AM
Or they could just have a ready check pop up once everyone has saved.

jtatta
03-14-2014, 10:57 AM
Or they could just have a ready check pop up once everyone has saved.

LOL. Once someone inevitably checks no, can the raid leader rage at them or just pull the boss anyway?

Disordia
03-14-2014, 11:02 AM
Oohh can we also have the double ready check, and the super ready check, then the Sun check? You aren't ready unless you are Sun check ready.

Yoss
03-14-2014, 11:10 AM
Renaming the Save button would also work. As someone else already said (which is why I just put "I agree" earlier), "Save" is generally something that one is expected to do early and often so that work is not lost in case of crash. If the button is actually "I'm done" rather than "protect me in case I lag out" then it should have a name that reflects that.

mach
03-14-2014, 11:51 AM
As someone else already said (which is why I just put "I agree" earlier), "Save" is generally something that one is expected to do early and often so that work is not lost in case of crash.

That was true 10-20 years ago.

Nowadays that kind of saving is done automatically.

Yoss
03-14-2014, 12:43 PM
Auto-save is great. If saving is automatic in the background, that's even more reason why the button shouldn't say "save" since that's not what the button does. The name of the button should indicate function as accurately and concisely as possible. The suggestions of "Submit" or "Confirm" or "Done" or "Start" or "Complete" are all better than "Save" for describing what the button actually does.

jtatta
03-14-2014, 12:52 PM
Auto-save is great. If saving is automatic in the background, that's even more reason why the button shouldn't say "save" since that's not what the button does. The name of the button should indicate function as accurately and concisely as possible. The suggestions of "Submit" or "Confirm" or "Done" or "Start" or "Complete" are all better than "Save" for describing what the button actually does.

Well the button does what it says it does. It saves your deck.

#trollololol #sorrynotsorry

Xenavire
03-14-2014, 01:01 PM
Well the button does what it says it does. It saves your deck.

#trollololol #sorrynotsorry

"You are technically correct. The best kind of correct."
~A Bureaucrat

nicosharp
03-14-2014, 01:03 PM
I want to speak for the casual gamer, and people new to this genre.
They will be new to the game, and be spending money to play these modes. Without proper indicators and an easy to understand UI / gameplay format, people will make mistakes, and then get angry with CZE due to the lack of explanation and hand-holding.

MTG:O is a bad example of how draft and sealed tournament UI should operate. The game is arbitrarily complex. Like mining bitcoins is complex to me, or e-mail is complex to my grandparents.

Every step and phase in the draft/sealed/tournament process needs to be clear and identified in the UI for the player.

For example:

No sound indicators when the game/draft begin if you disable audio in options
No Game window flickering or re-size when a turn/or mode is starting that requires a players response.
No indication if the decks saved contained the appropriate cards. (Save Complete)
No indication if players in a draft pool are ready to start drafting, or if someone in deck creation that saved is ready for their game.



This game isn't being made for professional TCG players solely in mind. Those 'pro' players, that also happen to be the most vocal, also have the most jaded view of what is an appropriate level of alerts.

jtatta
03-14-2014, 01:11 PM
I want to speak for the casual gamer, and people new to this genre.
They will be new to the game, and be spending money to play these modes. Without proper indicators and an easy to understand UI / gameplay format, people will make mistakes, and then get angry with CZE due to the lack of explanation and hand-holding.

MTG:O is a bad example of how draft and sealed tournament UI should operate. The game is arbitrarily complex. Like mining bitcoins is complex to me, or e-mail is complex to my grandparents.

Every step and phase in the draft/sealed/tournament process needs to be clear and identified in the UI for the player.

For example:

No sound indicators when the game/draft begin if you disable audio in options
No Game window flickering or re-size when a turn/or mode is starting that requires a players response.
No indication if the decks saved contained the appropriate cards. (Save Complete)
No indication if players in a draft pool are ready to start drafting, or if someone in deck creation that saved is ready for their game.



This game isn't being made for professional TCG players solely in mind. Those 'pro' players, that also happen to be the most vocal, also have the most jaded view of what is an appropriate level of alerts.

The last sentence you wrote is very generalized and not very fair but the rest if your post is something that we've been agreeing with since like page two of this thread when Aswan suggested it. I agree that things need to be more clear. What I was disagreeing with the majority of the thread was the need for a second button. That has since been clarified by even Yoss which should say a lot. (Only mostly kidding)

I like to consider myself a "pro gamer" but I'm certainly not jaded for what constitutes as "enough." I am a realist however and just understand that certain things aren't needed.

nicosharp
03-14-2014, 01:16 PM
The last sentence you wrote is very generalized and not very fair but the rest if your post is something that we've been agreeing with since like page two of this thread when Aswan suggested it. I agree that things need to be more clear. What I was disagreeing with the majority of the thread was the need for a second button. That has since been clarified by even Yoss which should say a lot. (Only mostly kidding)

I like to consider myself a "pro gamer" but I'm certainly not jaded for what constitutes as "enough." I am a realist however and just understand that certain things aren't needed.
I don't mean to target anyone as "pro gamer", but I do understand that some things that require extra steps to people that use them constantly, are annoying. However, sometimes those extra "Checks and Balances" are necessary to provide confidence for other people that rarely use them.

There is an art to making things seamless, and every time I think of MTG:O's save system I cringe a little. They have a pretty horrible UI, that is just easier to understand after you use it several times.

Edit: Just to add, there is significant wait times in Hex now, and will probably always be wait times. Unlike a Hearthstone system, where even their 'draft' queues take a minute or less. As more waiting is being done, it also increases the need for more safety checks for players. For example even High Ranked League of Legends players need the game to ping sound at them and LOL Air has to pop up and invade whatever they are doing to indicate a match is found.

Leingod
03-14-2014, 01:16 PM
A simple rename of the button from "Save" to "Submit" or "Confirm Deck" would probably go a long way to appease those who feel the current UI is confusing.

Probably a better idea than the 2 buttons ya. Good suggestion.

Zomnivore
03-14-2014, 11:39 PM
Well the button does what it says it does. It saves your deck.

#trollololol #sorrynotsorry

Well, I don't understand your attitude, but I'll agree that the wording would probably be more clear if it said "Submit". Save indicates that you're saving for something later.

Being a prick here really doesn't make sense when the solution is simple and the initial frustration some players get because of unclear wording isn't unfair.

CZE isn't going to implement a crappy 2nd button when an obviously efficient solution is available. So I don't honestly understand where the angst is coming from.

Its annoying to see you act like this when the stakes are...zero?

Kroan
03-15-2014, 05:01 AM
Here's an idea. Save the draft deck all the time and change the save button to a ready button. Done.

Changing your deck while waiting "unreadies" you again.

Also, there no need to be so defensive about the current UI guys. Just because MTGO does it and it's working for you, doesn't mean it's right. There is always room for improvement.

Slish
03-16-2014, 05:02 AM
Here's an idea. Save the draft deck all the time and change the save button to a ready button. Done.

Changing your deck while waiting "unreadies" you again.

Also, there no need to be so defensive about the current UI guys. Just because MTGO does it and it's working for you, doesn't mean it's right. There is always room for improvement.

This seems to be the best idea yes. I agree that 2 buttons might not be necessary indeed.

Werlix
03-16-2014, 06:39 PM
Here's an idea. Save the draft deck all the time and change the save button to a ready button. Done.

Changing your deck while waiting "unreadies" you again.

Also, there no need to be so defensive about the current UI guys. Just because MTGO does it and it's working for you, doesn't mean it's right. There is always room for improvement.

+1

Rokku
03-16-2014, 06:53 PM
problem with autosave is increased network load. Dont think they will allow that....

Yoss
03-16-2014, 07:48 PM
They already have autosave to enable the reconnect feature. Might as well include the deck.

Xenavire
03-16-2014, 07:52 PM
They already have autosave to enable the reconnect feature. Might as well include the deck.

Question is, should it be interval based, or reactive? I mean, saving every change at once could be something of a pain during high traffic, but saving only after X amount of time has passed could skip someone making a last minute change.

I do think it could be a very efficient solution to the issue, just need to figure out which is most efficient.

Yoss
03-16-2014, 07:53 PM
The "ready" button would also trigger an auto-save, so you'd never miss anything unless you made changes after you said "ready".

Kroan
03-17-2014, 12:55 AM
If they can't handle save actions of a few drafts, I seriously wonder how "MMO" this mmo is. The update actions to your deck are literally small enough (just like a pick from a draft in size I'd say... which is also submitted). But even if they couldn't manage it, there is stuff like queuing up changes and send them in an interval for example to reduce data traffic.

nicosharp
03-17-2014, 10:10 AM
If they can't handle save actions of a few drafts, I seriously wonder how "MMO" this mmo is. The update actions to your deck are literally small enough (just like a pick from a draft in size I'd say... which is also submitted). But even if they couldn't manage it, there is stuff like queuing up changes and send them in an interval for example to reduce data traffic.

To play devil's advocate, and because this game is being designed for tablet as well: It is not likely that every small change in the client will need to communicate with the servers. The biggest disconnect I have so far for this games claim to being an MMO is the lack of real-time interaction. The game is very much turn-base, and even chat seems a bit delayed. The packet traffic (data traffic) is still quite clogged for such a small user-base.