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DanTheMeek
03-17-2014, 07:39 PM
Let me be clear up front, I'm m aware my own sample size is extremely small, so for all I know I just haven't run into the guy running the top tier Shin'hare deck. I'm also aware that not every theme can be tier 1, its very possible Shin'hare are meant to be a fun but non-competitive casual deck. Having said that, as we're still at point where cards are being changed on a week to week basis, I'm curious... does anyone else feel Shin'hare need a buff?

I don't mean any one card, though I do feel a few are in a bad place, but just the theme in general just seems really under whelming. Shin'hare seem like the deck a lot of new players are going to gravitate toward, yet it seems to play out very awkward and slowly, and if it can be good (I have yet to see it), its certainly not a good theme out of the box as it were.

Again I'm only going off my own experiences, but as you may recall I was theory crafting shin'hare decks on this forum well before the alpha even came out, I was, and remain determined to make this a viable theme if at all possible, so passionate is my love for all things Shin'hare, I'm just really beginning to wonder, as the set really takes shape, if Shin'hare are viable as they stand. Heck, they don't even seem like a very good theme to go after in limited because they're so combo reliant, so they don't really have a place outside of if I've beat one of my friends several times in a row and I want to "throw" a game to get his spirits up with out requiring I purposely play bad, since I'll still need to give the match my all to even make it interesting for him.

Anyway, I would not be surprised if this topic gets a barrage of "they're under rated" or "you haven't seen my deck" or whatever, and thats fine, I'm saying definitely shin'hare need a buff, I'm just asking the communities feeling, cause my feeling is that they do and I'm curious if I'm a lone in this or if anyone else has been under whelmed by what looked to be a really fun theme.

As for what cards I'd change to help the theme if it was agreed it needed help?

Well first Concubunny (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/Concubunny.jpg) is awful, I'm glad they made wretched brood much more playable with the cost decrease but don't understand why Concubunny didn't get the same treatment. Make her cost 2, give her a 2 wild requirement if you must (though I don't think even that is necessary), or buff her in other ways, but where she's at is way to expensive and way to slow for what she does. Honestly, for an ability that expensive and that restrictive combined with stats that bad, I think she could actually be a 1 drop and still not be all that great. I mean really, a 0/1 with an extremely restrictive and expensive effect, Howling Brave is a 1/1 and has an AMAZING broad effect with almost no cost, and he costs 1, and I bet he'd still see more play then her if she costed 1, I just might actually choose her over him in the one deck where her effect is relevant which I can't say right now. But I'm not pushing for 1 cost, I'm just pushing for 2, cause her costing 3 seems absolutely absurd to me.

Next is Uzme, Grand Concubunny (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/UzumeGrandConcubunny.jpg). Wow, she's wild Shin'hares only current rare... and she's frankly unplayable if you're goal is to try to win. I've harped on her before, with numerous suggestions for how she could be improved, but suffice to say 6 (and 2 wild no less) for 3/5 is awful to begin with, on a unique its even worse, but then her effect is awful to! So its a card you can't play till you get to 6 mana, yet she doesn't even do anything until the turn after you play her, and then on that turn all she does is get you a random shin'hare that may or may not be helpful and as it will have been freshly summoned won't be able to do anything for you that turn either. My gosh is this card bad. And they can't even blame her shard as cards like Jadim and Fist of Brigadoon put her to flat out shame. I don't care if they were going for casual fun with that uncontrollable effect, she hits way to late for their to be any fun. When we start buying packs, I want to be excited when I pull her from a pack, but if she isn't improved, all I see myself feeling is disappointment.

Not truly shin'hare specific, but as it COULD have been a very useful card for them if it was better, I present Onslaught (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/Onslaught.jpg). If you're not familiar with MTG, this is the Hex equivalent of Overrun (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=238574). Now as I've said before, Hex does not have to match equivalent MTG cards exactly, infact I was actually ecstatic when Extinction was originally a 5 cost (and later heart broken when it was decreased to be in line with its MTG brethren) but personally Overrun was never a card I looked at and said "this cards way too cheap". It costs a lot, lasts only a turn, and does absolutely nothing on its own making it an awful late game top deck when your field is empty. I don't know why the cost was increased to 6, but the difference between 5 and 6 is huge, especially for a theme whose core cards are largely in the 1-3 cost range. I've said before that I rather we not copy MTG cards but borrow the essence of the original card while putting a spin on them that makes them uniquely Hex, and that would be my preference here too, but if not that, then can we at least just make it cost 5 like Overrun?

Shroom Tank (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/Shroomtank.jpg) isn't too bad, but I feel he doesn't do quite enough. His combined stat total is 3/5 for 5 and 2 wild and only 2 of the 3 cards that hit the field from his summoning even count as Shin'hare. In this case I'd just like it if he created a third Shin'hare, and I'd even be willing to see him go to 3/2 to get that if need be. 5 drops should really be game changers and Shroom Tank really isn't. I'm not as unhappy with this card as the above cards, but one of the biggest short comings of the deck is that you're pretty much never gonna win before your opponent has a chance to extinction, and a single extinction basically hard counters the entire theme. Having the tank throw out 3 bunnies gives you a late game way to re-establish some, albeit weak, shin'hare field presence after such a devastating blow.

I used to love Blood Cauldron Ritualist (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/BloodCauldronRitualist.jpg), and then he went and broke my heart by getting nerfed into the ground. Maybe he was too good the way he was before, I never got to play with that version of him, but the nerf he received seems to be a bit too much. I don't know if he needs higher base stats, lower cost, or a stat boost effect that isn't capped at one use like the old one had, but he's REALLY under whelming in his current state. I've harped on this guy before as well I believe so I'll keep this short.

Some one once told me Bolt Paw Wizard (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/BoltpawWizard.jpg) is secretly good because of that revert effect. I don't see it, but I'll take there word for it. Having said that... why the mill effect? Its so random and out of theme. Can we please make that something more in theme, or just a -1/-1 to a target troop, or even lose it entirely for an extra stat point some where? I won't push this too much since again, I know of at least one person who thinks this card is actually good as it is for that first effect.

Can the Mushwocky (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/TheMushwocky.jpg) have Crush? Pretty pretty please? He can have 0/1 to start in exchange? What about a second effect that he can eat a shin'hare to give himself crush till the end of turn? For a guy as vulnerable to instant-kills and revert and being as expensive to buff as he is, he sure is hard to actually push any damage through with do to trample or evasion at all...

Not sure how I feel about Hop'hiro (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/HophiroSamurai.jpg), he's an awful lot of work for not much pay off, but he's also a 1 drop so it would be unrealistic to expect to much. But man, that unique status REALLY hurts on a 1 drop, so often I could unload a handful of these guys but can't. I don't know, I think I've complained about enough cards so I'm gonna let Hop'hiro go, but he's at least a guy I've got my eye on.

Sensei of the Wounded Petal (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/SenseioftheWoundedPetal.jpg) should be cost 4. Thats just my opinion, but life gain isn't all that powerful, and glimmer witch with almost the same stats and zero restrictions gets a guaranteed 3 health while only costing 3. You've got to combo SotWP to get more then 1 and his stats are almost the same as hers, yet he costs 5... seems to much to me. I'm still not sure I'd use him at 4, but at least I'd think about it.

Rune Ear Commander... I honestly don't know what I want done with this guy. Crush would make more sense here then Mushwocky since crush is one of Wild's specialties, so maybe give him crush. That might be too much though, unlike Mushwocky you're not giving anything up to get his effect (albeit a much smaller effect). Maybe bump up his wild requirement to 3 in exchange? I don't know, this may be one of those cards that would be fine if the other shin'hare cards I've listed were improved, but needing at least 4 other troops out just to justify the 4 drop cost and get him above standard 4/4 for 4 filler seems like it warrants something else.

Okay I think thats enough nit picking, but for the TLDR, just look at the topic's title, do you think Shin'hare need a buff? If not, why not, if so, what would you suggest be done to make them better with out going too far?

GrinningBuddha
03-17-2014, 07:46 PM
There really isn't any Tier 1 tribal decks right now. In that regard, Shin'Hare seem fine. Expect set 2 to continue to flesh out the tribal themes and build on all of the races.

ossuary
03-17-2014, 07:58 PM
Captain Screenshot says Shin'Hare are fine. :)

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x197/ChaosFromOrder/rune_ear.png

XagoTrunk
03-17-2014, 08:00 PM
I don't know why but I feel that shinhares are gonna be amazing in pve

stiii
03-17-2014, 08:01 PM
I think this could be applied to most of the possible decks. There just aren't enough cards to have lots of different deck in the meta game. Not that there really is a meta game before proper events start anyway

Xenavire
03-17-2014, 08:08 PM
Considering that I have played around with shin'hare decks, and have seen several fast, consistant ones, I feel this is mostly overreaction. Not a complete overreaction, as some are too expensive etc.

But I recently tried a mostly tribal ruby/wild shin'hare swarm deck. Got a turn 5 win, would have been turn 4 if I got a normal shard instead of a shard of fate. Haven't even tuned it or tested it much, but it is fast and has potential.

If anything needs a buff, it would be orcs. They don't seem to hang together very well just yet.

ossuary
03-17-2014, 08:24 PM
If anything needs a buff, it would be orcs. They don't seem to hang together very well just yet.

Try Blood / Ruby, with some smart support. Ruby Aura works wonders for your best troop in play. Throat Cutters are deadly if you get more than one out. Crushing Blow is a nice combat trick to push through those last few points of damage (and Gore Feast of Kog'tewhatever is a straight-up game ender). Crown of Primals makes any orc you cast an instant threat (true in any deck, but especially true with orcs since many of them will already have extra points of rage and higher attack).

Also, for bonus fun, try throwing a few of the ruby Inspire troops in (Ruby Enchantress makes all 3+ cost orcs swiftstrike - brutal!). Take full advantage of that by throwing out a cheap fattie like Claw of the Mountain God. Give him Blood Aura so his lifeloss doesn't hurt you anymore. Get Zoltog in play, and Claw's ability actually gives you a free Savage Raider every turn.

I'd argue that a good orc deck is even faster than a Shin'Hare deck. Shin'Hares are only crappy blockers until you get enough of them and start getting buffers out to boost them. Orcs start out threatening, and just get worse. Now that there are more ways to give them crush, they can pretty quickly outstrip Shin'Hare's "survive by numbers" game.

Axle
03-17-2014, 09:10 PM
It's just set 1 and I'm sure set 2 will give growth to Shin'Hare. One thing I noticed is that the Shin'Hare don't use the gems. Maybe this will change? Assuming we were never to get any set after this however this is how I would evaluate the Shin'Hare.

The problem with Shin'hares right now I think is flyers (which is fine, decks need a weakness) but also that they don't have their own reliable win condition and have to use off tribe cards to grasp a win. This means the synergy in the deck isn't all there. Rune Ear is not a good win condition. Captain Screenshot is against an AI opponent which at this point in the AI is just solitaire.

Shin'Hare I can't see a single good troop that makes me want to build a deck of them. Tokens can certainly be generated. The support for the tokens is there but not the reason. Bucktooth, Hophiro, Rune Ear and Mushwocky just need to be removed from the field and the problem is gone. None of them effect the board state well and by the time they are powerful enough your opponent will probably have answers. What I'm saying is that Shin'hare need new cards and changing none of their current cards will help them unless they are entirely re purposed.

The only reliable way to win with Shin'Hare that isn't just one card that is easy to to stop right now is to setup tokens and cast Onslaught. They can't murder all your tokens after all. But between the turns between then and now you've got no power players outside of maybe Incantation of Savagery and you just twiddle your thumbs. Not to mention you have a big struggle with heat wave decks that can turn your setup into a waste.

I definitely want to see Shin'hare cards that can do more than just generate tokens or become really big the more tokens you have. They need cards that are capable of impacting the board immediately. Possibly on the number of tokens you possess but instead of damage, maybe creating large card advantage swings that reward you for your token commitment but not requiring you to take a turn of downtime and give your opponent time to entirely halt you. Some of these cards should be 4 drop tier effects too. Certainly not on as large a scale effect as I implied but something that once your opponent is setup you can do something nasty back to them with your army of bunnies other than just pushing for damage.


THEORYCRAFTING BELOW, BEWARE:

An idea I had was a Milky Eye troop that would "train" your Battle Hoppers into a Milky Eye-flavored token card. You could sacrifice any number of hoppers but only every 2 hoppers would create 1 Milky Eye token because not all will survive the training. The boss Milky Eye then could deal damage to opposing selected troops based on the number of Milky Eye troops you control after his first effect resolves. These new tokens would also be 1/2 or 2/2. Seeing an army of battle hoppers is nice, but seeing them transform into an assassin task force is even better.

Milky Eye Trainer - Troop - Shin'Hare Milky Eye
4/2
Costs 4 (2 Blood Threshold) / Probably a 5 drop unless I'm just being too hard on myself
----
When this troop is played, sacrifice any number of Shin'hare. For every 2 Shin'Hare sacrificed create a Milky Eye Assassin. Then, deal damage among your opponents troops equal to the number of Shin'Hare Milky Eye you control.

Milky Eye Assassin - Troop - Shin'Hare Milky Eye
1/2
Costs 1 (1 Blood Threshold)
----
Speed


Not to say a card like Milky Eye Trainer is a win condition but cards like it are necessary for the decks success as well.

Malakili
03-18-2014, 01:04 AM
There really isn't any Tier 1 tribal decks right now.

Ding!

This is one of the problems with "The Proving Grounds" right now anyway. You have people with very different approaches to the game playing each other all the time. Not every deck concept is going to be viable at the highest levels of play. Tribal decks tend to appeal to Timmys (Timmies?) which is a fine way to play the game, but when you are likely to be playing Spikes, it can get rough.

ossuary
03-18-2014, 04:30 AM
Expecting every type of deck to win in the same way is a common mistake of less experienced competitors. I'm sorry, but swarms are not meant to win by "card advantage." They are meant to win by an overwhelming, replenishable supply of cheap, crappy troops. The loss of any one (or few) is meaningless in the grand scheme.

Shin'Hare do not need a "big bruiser" type of troop, or some trumped up burn spell in disguise. They don't need flyers, or card draw, or counterspells. They live, or die, by the swarm. And that's a perfectly viable way to play. ANY type of deck requires smart use of support cards (or "off tribe" cards, as you call them) to win, or they are at a severe disadvantage. That's just synergy.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the problem that you're describing. It is a challenge, but it's supposed to be.

deteego
03-18-2014, 04:48 AM
Shin'are are probably, the weakest type of deck you can build right now, for various reasons

1. They require extreme synergy to work. Battle hoppers are useless without support (if they were 1/0 instead of 0/1, things would be very different)
2. Point #1 means there is very little room to be left for support cards to help cover shin'ares weaknesses
3. Doesn't have any champion ability that synergizes with them except for the one that makes battle hoppers
4. No control, no denial, and no real form of damage apart from a highly situational samuari warrior/boltcast paw
5. Even with #1, the reward for that synergy is nothing compared to comparable decks. A fast ramp wild deck can get out as much offense (more reliably) compared to a shin'are deck. An offensive ruby/blood deck can get out as much quick offense as a shin'are. Shin'are is basically high risk with medium reward. Yes you can do a lot of damage in turn 6. with that magic hand, but a lot of decks can do a lot of damage in turn 5 without magic hands
6. Hard countered by stuff as stupid as zombie plague

Xenavire
03-18-2014, 05:07 AM
Deet... I would rethink one specific thing there. At 1/0, they woukd be entirely useless. Instant death.

ossuary
03-18-2014, 05:14 AM
6. Hard countered by stuff as stupid as zombie plague

On the contrary, Dwarves and Orcs are both FAR more susceptible to Zombie Plague than Shin'Hare are, because almost all of them have only 1 or 2 defense, whereas there are a number of ways to PRODUCE Shin'Hare without an actual troop card in your deck (Wretched Brood, Runts of the Litter, champion's ability, etc.) that guarantee you can continue to have at least some troops in play to block with. Wild also happens to be the only color with excellent removal options for constants.

Add Command Towers into your deck, and those "crappy" 0/1 troops that cost next to nothing to produce are suddenly strong enough to kill most 4 and 5 cost troops.

Everyone wants to make sweeping generalizations of power level without taking into account all of the factors. It's just not that simple.

deteego
03-18-2014, 05:30 AM
On the contrary, Dwarves and Orcs are both FAR more susceptible to Zombie Plague than Shin'Hare are, because almost all of them have only 1 or 2 defense, whereas there are a number of ways to PRODUCE Shin'Hare without an actual troop card in your deck (Wretched Brood, Runts of the Litter, champion's ability, etc.) that guarantee you can continue to have at least some troops in play to block with. Wild also happens to be the only color with excellent removal options for constants.

Add Command Towers into your deck, and those "crappy" 0/1 troops that cost next to nothing to produce are suddenly strong enough to kill most 4 and 5 cost troops.

Everyone wants to make sweeping generalizations of power level without taking into account all of the factors. It's just not that simple.

Almost every single shin'are troop that you can think of has either 1 or 2 defence, exception would be the epic ones (such as the grand concubunny).

The main thing is, not all orcs have 1 health. Yes the one or two cost ones do, but unless you entirely built your deck around 1 cost orcs, there are plenty of orcs that have 3-5 defense

I have yet to see a single shin'are deck that is actually good, yes some have one, but any better deck in the same situation would have won better, while wining more often than the shin'are

deteego
03-18-2014, 05:54 AM
Deet... I would rethink one specific thing there. At 1/0, they woukd be entirely useless. Instant death.

Typo, should have mentioned 1/1

Axle
03-18-2014, 06:06 AM
Expecting every type of deck to win in the same way is a common mistake of less experienced competitors. I'm sorry, but swarms are not meant to win by "card advantage." They are meant to win by an overwhelming, replenishable supply of cheap, crappy troops. The loss of any one (or few) is meaningless in the grand scheme.

Shin'Hare do not need a "big bruiser" type of troop, or some trumped up burn spell in disguise. They don't need flyers, or card draw, or counterspells. They live, or die, by the swarm. And that's a perfectly viable way to play. ANY type of deck requires smart use of support cards (or "off tribe" cards, as you call them) to win, or they are at a severe disadvantage. That's just synergy.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the problem that you're describing. It is a challenge, but it's supposed to be.

I'm sorry but I'm an experienced card player and swarms don't win at all unless they're a win by turn 4 aggro deck and Shin'hare is not that type of deck. Shin'hare will never win in the tier 1 sphere as long as everything they do is stopped by a single heat wave. I've never seen a deck that requires so much setup just to deal big damage ever be a competitive deck in any game I've played because it's awful. A deck that gets completely crushed by 1 heatwave when it can't even win or do anything viable until turn 6 without ramp isn't a good deck. Command tower on Shin'hares isn't good and is too simple minded as well. It's cute but not going to win tier 1 games.

If they continue to follow their current game plan of
1. Make tokens
2. Wait a turn because tokens don't have speed
3. Play expensive card that can be countered or murdered then once that card is gone sit at the floor twiddling their thumbs for another turn to repeat the process of being countered by a single removal spell.

As you can see, the smart use of cards isn't possible here because the rabbits force you to setup one turn before you can make any plays in their current state.

Shin'hare lose to the most common side deck cards in the game right now. You might be too close minded to not think about side decks when they're not implemented but I do because I'm an "experienced competitor" and I know which ones will be played. I find it hard to consider YOU an "experienced competitor" when you posted a duel against an AI as your proof of their viability. Come on.

You must not have read the lore of Shin'hare because an assassin sub-tribe doing card advantage things seems like the perfect job for them. The difficulty is still there because you still must setup tokens and commit to the board but the simple-mindedness is cured. Shin'hares aren't a stupid race. They deserve intelligent design other than swinging for numbers. Leave that for the orcs ;).

Xenavire
03-18-2014, 06:07 AM
Typo, should have mentioned 1/1

I figured as much, but it helps people coming in to be aware of that.

I do think making them 1/1 would make the deck way too fast. I can easily, and reliably, have 2-5 troops out by turn 3. Much more on a good draw. With only a few turns of sneaking damage in, any decent buffer can turn that lethal. There are many ways to add power, from artifacts to troops to actions, that hit your entire warzone. I think them being 1/1 standard would be too large of an advantage.


@Axle, I beg to differ. My current shin'hare deck can pull of turn 4 win. Isn't even a huge stretch to make it work.

deteego
03-18-2014, 06:09 AM
I figured as much, but it helps people coming in to be aware of that.

I do think making them 1/1 would make the deck way too fast. I can easily, and reliably, have 2-5 troops out by turn 3. Much more on a good draw. With only a few turns of sneaking damage in, any decent buffer can turn that lethal. There are many ways to add power, from artifacts to troops to actions, that hit your entire warzone. I think them being 1/1 standard would be too large of an advantage.

Oh yes I agree, but with 0/1 they are on the more useless side. I wouldn't mind them being 1/0 with a specific exception that they don't die due to having 0 health (hell it can be shin'hare specific trait if they want it to be)


I'm sorry but I'm an experienced card player and swarms don't win at all unless they're a win by turn 4 aggro deck and Shin'hare is not that type of deck. Shin'hare will never win as long as everything they do is stopped by a single heat wave.

You can add sorrow and extinction to that list

Xenavire
03-18-2014, 06:14 AM
I think sorrow is a sideboard card, so less relevant. But even with all those answers, shin'hare are quite easy to recover with. Save your charge power. Keep a runts of the litter in-hand. Etc. They obviously are more powerful if you go all-in, but so is every deck.

deteego
03-18-2014, 06:17 AM
I think sorrow is a sideboard card, so less relevant. But even with all those answers, shin'hare are quite easy to recover with.

Shin'hare is probably the worst type of deck you can recover with, yes you can keep your runts of the litter for later, but any sought of mid/late game deck would beat a shin'hare deck if you try to stall with such a strategy

Xenavire
03-18-2014, 07:10 AM
This is totally off base. I have recovered several times from extinctions and heat waves - if you aren't, then you are overextending or your need to change the deck up until it can.

Of course, pure tribal that is entirely true, but my semi-tribal shin'hare is brutal if it can churn out a few hoppers - pre or post extinction hardly matters. It obviously works better when there are no extinctions, but so is any troop deck.

Lawlschool
03-18-2014, 07:20 AM
Shin'hare definitely aren't "Tier 1" since they do have quite a lot of weaknesses, but I think a lot of you are being a bit too dismissive. No one's mentioned the Shin'hare's best friend, the Roostasaur, which can do some serious damage very early. There's also Incant of Savagery, which goes quite well with the swarm theme. And a while back Indormi was running a pretty intense shin'hare + soul marble deck.

Something I noticed when trying to make shin'hare decks was that blood/wild often didn't work too great. Once I switched to a straight mono-wild swarm, the deck became much more powerful. As for play style, you shouldn't be attempting to build up a small army and then use Onslaught as a finisher, you should be sending over waves of buffed battle hoppers to clash in to the opponent with a few sneaking damage through (Roostasaur helps a lot for early damage when your hoppers aren't buffed enough). It's pretty easy to out build your opponent's army, meaning you can attack in with more than they can block and still leave some chump blockers to discourage them from attacking.

I doubt we'll be seeing shin'hare themed decks winning major tournies any time soon, but I think they're in a pretty good spot right now. They can be pretty decent if you know what you're doing, and they're definitely newbie friendly and fun to play because of all the synergy. Let's not forget this is still Set 1, so it's possible we'll see some major improvements to the bunnies in later sets.

deteego
03-18-2014, 07:27 AM
This is totally off base. I have recovered several times from extinctions and heat waves - if you aren't, then you are overextending or your need to change the deck up until it can.

Im not saying you can't recover, I am saying that comparatively speaking, shin'hare has the worst recovery, regardless if you are overextending or not


Shin'hare definitely aren't "Tier 1" since they do have quite a lot of weaknesses, but I think a lot of you are being a bit too dismissive. No one's mentioned the Shin'hare's best friend, the Roostasaur, which can do some serious damage very early. There's also Incant of Savagery, which goes quite well with the swarm theme. And a while back Indormi was running a pretty intense shin'hare + soul marble deck.

Honestly roostasaur is the only thing that is making Shin'hair viable right now

Axle
03-18-2014, 07:36 AM
I think sorrow is a sideboard card, so less relevant. But even with all those answers, shin'hare are quite easy to recover with. Save your charge power. Keep a runts of the litter in-hand. Etc. They obviously are more powerful if you go all-in, but so is every deck.

Matches are 2/3. We are forced to play at least an equal number of games with and without sideboards from just that but in the event of a 1:1 we play 2 games with side boards. This means we will always play more games with sideboards than without. Why would it be less relevant? That reasoning is the whole reason I'm against playing tournament games without sides in the first place but I digress.

Command Tower or Onslaught or Rooster Shin'Hare hate:
Heat Wave, Extinction, Sorrow (Respond to Onslaught with sorrow to cause even more -s), opponent playing flyers, opponent playing plentiful higher than 1 toughness troops or just winning the game faster than you reach turn 6.

Ruby aggro(orcs) shares these weaknesses but Ruby aggro has the SPEED keyword to allow them to recover and direct burn to finish the job. They aren't as simple minded as the Shin'Hare are right now.

The other shin'hare win conditions (the troops that get big) lose to the tens of thousand removal cards each shard has so I'm just going to completely dismiss them and not even list the 20 side deck cards.

Bah. I'm still a bit insulted Ossuary would call me a less experienced player when hes the one who brought a screenshot against an AI to a gun fight and his argument is "The decks weakness is being a bad deck. You must learn to play while it is a bad deck to be successful". I don't think the command tower strategy is very good either because if your opponent has no troops by turn 3/4 to block your wimpy 1/1s with then they're either playing board wipes or you're playing solitaire. If you wait to amass your army until you have enough tokens to swing for game then you're already playing much slower than the onslaught finisher and your opponent is probably miles ahead of you. I'm facing Shin'hare against a real opponent that plays troops with more than 1 toughness per turn, not someone who isn't playing the game at all and is mana screwed.

Rooster is alright. I admit I forgot about it. I like it. Being a 2 cost that can deal some damage is for sure better than being 4 or higher. It's a good early game card but not a win condition. It helps carry a deck but is not the entire structure necessary to grasp the consistent wins. I did mention Savagery but now that's it not a crazy 6/6 the card can't carry a deck by itself. I'm just asking for Shin'hare to be able to make a play the turn they make their tokens. Something I expect to happen in further sets but we're evaluating the deck on what it has right now. I also understand the deck may not be intended to be a good deck ever in the first place and just a gateway for new players, but that's not what this thread is about.

Xenavire could you tell me what these decks you've beaten are? Test decks? I dunno. I'd rather talk from theory than personal experience which can be very biased and selective.

ossuary
03-18-2014, 07:50 AM
The screenshot was a joke. I thought that was obvious from the smiley face. Sorry you didn't get that. ;)

Axle
03-18-2014, 07:54 AM
Nice try. Your arguments for why you thought the deck is actually good is more than enough for me to not believe you there.

Xenavire
03-18-2014, 07:57 AM
The reason I said less relevant is because you actually have to carry that card in your sideboard for it to matter. Sorrow is a fine card, but I doubt it is going to be hitting any top sideboard lists any time soon.

As for onslaught, command tower, and roostersaur - yeah, there is plenty of stuff to stop each one. But that doesn't mean you can't win before your opponent plays it, or that you can't recover afterwards. The same is true for a lot of decks. I am not going to ever claim that shin'hare is top tier (at least with the current card pool) but shin'hare has the potential to be a dark horse in the metagame. All it takes is a theme deck tuned to the max that just sweeps through the top decks because no-one expects it.

I am using my MTG experience here - sometimes bad cards get put into decks that people don't expect, and on that basis they pull off upset victories. Shin'hare will never be a reliable win though - you are right in that respect. But I don't want to discount it especially with the games I have been playing recently. If I make the deck more consistent (currently refining it now) I might just invite you to play.

It does great things but right now is unreliable - but that isn't the fault of removal, but the lack of draw.

Avaian
03-18-2014, 08:13 AM
The fact there is a discussion should prove that the shin'hare are okay, not great nor are they terrible. The sets aren't designed around decks, decks form after cards are designed. It just so happens that the theme of Set 1 is Shin'hare, Orcs, Human, and Dwarfs, so those are the tribal decks we are seeing.

From my experience of Shin'hare I love them. I tend to play towards the Onslaught or nothing type decks, maybe spiced with Command Tower and similar cards.

The cards I truly find valuable in nearly all Shin'hare Decks are Unnecessary Sacrifice, Onslaught and Bucktooth Commander. This is by all means, not all of the valuable cards, but the three I tend to use and profit from the most.

Unnecessary Sacrifice is great combined with Champion Monika'shin, making it easy to make a troop to sacrifice. Unnecessary Sacrifice is also the only blood card I tend to use in Shin'hare decks.

Onsalught is a win condition, with 5-6 troops in play you generally win if you play an Onslaught. 5-6 troops is easy for Shin'hare to get.

Bucktooth Commander tends to speak for itself, as to why it is good in shin'hare decks.

In all honesty, shin'hare decks are not top tier tournament winning decks, however they are not bad.

YourOpponent
03-18-2014, 09:14 AM
I have a pretty good Shin'Haar deck if I do say so myself. If yours is having a hard time then might I suggest using a command tower, Roostersaur (since he thrives from the battle hopper tokens), Hop'Hiro samurai (a rare blood Shin'Haar well worth having)

stiii
03-18-2014, 12:20 PM
I like how these threads always devolve into who is better at magic contests.

p.s. it is me

Kroan
03-18-2014, 12:28 PM
No one's mentioned the Shin'hare's best friend, the Roostasaur
Totally unrelated... but I wish there was an alternate art Roostasaur that had a shin'hare riding on it...

Xenavire
03-18-2014, 12:32 PM
I like how these threads always devolve into who is better at magic contests.

p.s. it is me

How is this anything to do with magic, barring a few card comparisons? This is a Hex discussion, talking about Hex experience, about Hex strategy.

I just think you are wrong, stii.

stiii
03-18-2014, 12:50 PM
Expecting every type of deck to win in the same way is a common mistake of less experienced competitors. I'm sorry, but swarms are not meant to win by "card advantage." They are meant to win by an overwhelming, replenishable supply of cheap, crappy troops. The loss of any one (or few) is meaningless in the grand scheme.




I'm sorry but I'm an experienced card player and swarms don't win at all unless they're a win by turn 4 aggro deck and Shin'hare is not that type of deck. Shin'hare will never win in the tier 1 sphere as long as everything they do is stopped by a single heat wave. I've never seen a deck that requires so much setup just to deal big damage ever be a competitive deck in any game I've played because it's awful. A deck that gets completely crushed by 1 heatwave when it can't even win or do anything viable until turn 6 without ramp isn't a good deck. Command tower on Shin'hares isn't good and is too simple minded as well. It's cute but not going to win tier 1 games.





I am using my MTG experience here - sometimes bad cards get put into decks that people don't expect, and on that basis they pull off upset victories. Shin'hare will never be a reliable win though - you are right in that respect. But I don't want to discount it especially with the games I have been playing recently. If I make the deck more consistent (currently refining it now) I might just invite you to play.




There is no such thing as an experienced hex player so these people are clearly talking about other games. The last quote is even from you talking about using your MTG experience! Playing a few games of Hex will always be dwarfed by 2/5/10/more years of magic experience. I mean you keep bringing it up in threads to back your points up.

DanTheMeek
03-18-2014, 12:56 PM
Totally unrelated... but I wish there was an alternate art Roostasaur that had a shin'hare riding on it...

Yes yes, a million times yes. I've talked with one of my friends before about how its kind of sad that probably the best card shin'hare has, in both typing and aesthetics, has absolutely nothing to do with them. But when I do win games with a shin'hare deck its usually on the back of a Roostasaur, if not directly then in large part do to work he did early in the game.

I mentioned at the start that I'm well aware that not every theme can be tier 1, nor do they need to be, but I don't like that argument as a reason why not to try to make them tier 1. Further, while I would agree that all the tribal decks seem a bit lacking right now, perhaps they should all have topics like this discussing how they can be improved. I like that a lot more then just learning to accept a deck I like isn't and won't be competitive.

Also I loved the suggestion about the milky eye rabbits, its a great lore that has tremendous game play potential. Having said that I'd really prefer that they'd less be faster, that should be Orcs thing, and rather that they instead were made to better recover from field wipes. A single sorrow, heat wave, or exctinction should hurt, I just wish it wasn't usually a win conditon against shin hare, and while its possible to come back from them, you are at a massive MASSIVE disadvantage as things stand. The best way I can see to better salvage them is to have better late game options for re-filling the field and pressing advantages before turn 6, like a wild action that costs 4 and says "if you have less then 5 shin'hare in play create battle hoppers until you have exactly 5 shin'hare in play. If you already have 5 or more shin'hare in play, they get +1/+1 until the end of turn", that sort of thing.

jtatta
03-18-2014, 01:14 PM
I'm going to be real for a minute.

There is no such thing as a good Shin'hare deck. I know that's hard to hear for some people, but it's true. You can have all the Battle Hoppers you want, but the entire deck is shut down by cards that are widely played. Murder, Extinction, Heat Wave, etc. the deck require you to have a lot of other cards in play to synergize with each other and it doesn't work out the way that you'd like. If you win on turn four with Shin'hare, then your opponent went afk. Xenavire, sometimes you have good ideas, sometimes I think that you're just talking out of you know where. When it comes to deck theory and "testing results," I think it's the latter. Between your chimes deck and your Shin'hare deck, I don't know which is more ludicrous.

It's a fun deck. I enjoy playing ninja bunnies but I'm not naive enough to think that if I win on turn four in the proving grounds that it's a good deck. It's just something fun to play with and stream and to just have a fun time. It's not a serious deck and may not even be with set two. Who knows?

Xenavire
03-18-2014, 01:21 PM
There is no such thing as an experienced hex player so these people are clearly talking about other games. The last quote is even from you talking about using your MTG experience! Playing a few games of Hex will always be dwarfed by 2/5/10/more years of magic experience. I mean you keep bringing it up in threads to back your points up.

But there wasn't any kind of argument about it, and no-one was trying to one up each other. The talk about MTG was about cards themselves, nothing about 'who has played the longest'. There is nothing wrong about using an example to show a parallel - you are acting as though this was an all out brawl.

Get over yourself, please.


I'm going to be real for a minute.

There is no such thing as a good Shin'hare deck. I know that's hard to hear for some people, but it's true. You can have all the Battle Hoppers you want, but the entire deck is shut down by cards that are widely played. Murder, Extinction, Heat Wave, etc. the deck require you to have a lot of other cards in play to synergize with each other and it doesn't work out the way that you'd like. If you win on turn four with Shin'hare, then your opponent went afk. Xenavire, sometimes you have good ideas, sometimes I think that you're just talking out of you know where. When it comes to deck theory and "testing results," I think it's the latter. Between your chimes deck and your Shin'hare deck, I don't know which is more ludicrous.

It's a fun deck. I enjoy playing ninja bunnies but I'm not naive enough to think that if I win on turn four in the proving grounds that it's a good deck. It's just something fun to play with and stream and to just have a fun time. It's not a serious deck and may not even be with set two. Who knows?

I have had decent success with ruby/wild shin'hare and blood/wild shin'hare at different times. I never said it was top tier, I said it performed well, and I tried to refine the deck to be more consistant - it somewhat worked.

It is by no means an amazing deck, but it isn't outright bad. But shin'hare and Gore feast does a huge amount of damage in early turns if played right. Usually enough to finish someone. It does a decent job, not an amazing job, so I wouldn't recommend taking it to tournaments.

jtatta
03-18-2014, 01:30 PM
Okay, maybe I was a bit harsh on "there's no good Shin'hare deck." There's certainly no great Shin'hare deck right now at least. I think that building a deck that can win is pretty easy but you have a really bad habit of somehow getting turn four wins (who the crap are you testing against?) and then calling for nerfs or whatever else. Your results are skewed and very biased and that's why people would rather talk theory than actual results. The only tournament going on right now with 100+ players is the Challenge Series and people don't play Shin'hare decks for a reason. You're just being misleading.

Xenavire
03-18-2014, 01:34 PM
Okay, maybe I was a bit harsh on "there's no good Shin'hare deck." There's certainly no great Shin'hare deck right now at least. I think that building a deck that can win is pretty easy but you have a really bad habit of somehow getting turn four wins (who the crap are you testing against?) and then calling for nerfs or whatever else. Your results are skewed and very biased and that's why people would rather talk theory than actual results. The only tournament going on right now with 100+ players is the Challenge Series and people don't play Shin'hare decks for a reason. You're just being misleading.

Lots of decks can get early wins - this particular deck can win fairly consistently by turn 6 with no board wipes. Played against a few different decks, but this is a fun deck, so nothing comprehensive so far.

Turn 4 is the absolute earliest it can win though - could be possibly improved by ramp, but I didn't want to commit slots to that. It can somewhat work in longer games too, but like any aggro deck, the longer you play the less chance you have of winning, because all your pressure is gone.

stiii
03-18-2014, 01:43 PM
But there wasn't any kind of argument about it, and no-one was trying to one up each other. The talk about MTG was about cards themselves, nothing about 'who has played the longest'. There is nothing wrong about using an example to show a parallel - you are acting as though this was an all out brawl.

Get over yourself, please.



So people talking about less experienced players is talking about the cards?! Is there some card called experienced players I've missed?

Maybe you should get over yourself too? You keep bringing up your rather dubious MTG experience.

Werlix
03-18-2014, 01:45 PM
You playing in the march HTP tournament, Xen? You should bring one of your cray cray decks, it'd be fun :)

http://challonge.com/marchchallenge

Kroan
03-18-2014, 02:13 PM
Tbh, saying a certain deck is not (yet) played in a "big" tournament is not an argument whether there is a good to be build or not with a certain theme. That being said, there need a lot of stars to align in the right way to make it win enough I'd think.

Lawlschool
03-18-2014, 02:33 PM
Back on topic, do Shin'Hare need a buff? We all seem to be in agreement that Shin'Hare decks aren't going to be Tier 1, but should they be? I don't think there's anything wrong with the Shin'Hare being mid-level, since they're just a theme deck.

What's great about Shin'Hare is you can pretty much throw together a deck with a bunch of the bunnies and have it be playable. This is great for newbies who don't really know the intricacies of deck building and synergies, since the bunnies synergize really well with each other. I think that's the main point of these racial-theme decks: new players can toss a bunch of similar race cards around a curve and have it be playable. It's a nice introduction to deck building and helps with understanding how the game is played.

Xenavire
03-18-2014, 02:34 PM
You playing in the march HTP tournament, Xen? You should bring one of your cray cray decks, it'd be fun :)

http://challonge.com/marchchallenge

As amusing as it sounds, I haven't found a single deck that I love enough to come show off. I get a bunch of ideas, and I test and tune them a little, and while I can get decent win rates, I still haven't found a real deck that I enjoy to play in every game.

I do lean towards control/combo, with crazy and unsustainable deck themes that are a lot of fun, so I could always post a few deck builds I like for other people? I wouldn't object to flexing my Johnny side to help others out in the fun department.

Axle
03-18-2014, 02:36 PM
Back on topic, do Shin'Hare need a buff? We all seem to be in agreement that Shin'Hare decks aren't going to be Tier 1, but should they be? I don't think there's anything wrong with the Shin'Hare being mid-level, since they're just a theme deck.

What's great about Shin'Hare is you can pretty much throw together a deck with a bunch of the bunnies and have it be playable. This is great for newbies who don't really know the intricacies of deck building and synergies, since the bunnies synergize really well with each other. I think that's the main point of these racial-theme decks: new players can toss a bunch of similar race cards around a curve and have it be playable. It's a nice introduction to deck building and helps with understanding how the game is played.

I dunno. Of all the main tribes, the humans are looking really strong. They're almost there and do look like they're being pushed as a competitive deck. I guess you don't necessarily have to play all the humans together but Benjamin makes it very tempting to do so.

Lawlschool
03-18-2014, 02:53 PM
I dunno. Of all the main tribes, the humans are looking really strong. They're almost there and do look like they're being pushed as a competitive deck. I guess you don't necessarily have to play all the humans together but Benjamin makes it very tempting to do so.

True, Inspire is pretty intense and Ben helps a lot. But my point was that tribal decks seem to be more for ease of deck-building than something that should be top tier. Tribal decks certainly could be Tier 1, but they don't need to be Tier 1, hence why I don't think the Shin'Hare need a buff.

Axle
03-18-2014, 02:59 PM
Ah. Yeah I understand you there.

Parzival
03-18-2014, 03:38 PM
I'm hoping they are keeping the Shin'hare crazy stuff for PvE where it would make sense to have powerful tribal decks.

jtatta
03-18-2014, 03:52 PM
As it has been pointed out before a few times, not all decks are going to be viable with such a small card pool. You're going to have your few tier 1 decks that are obvious and your handful of tier 2 strategies that are competitive, and then A LOT of fringe playable decks, a lot of them being "theme" decks. It just so happens that Shin'hare is one of these theme decks that are like tier 3. Once we get more cards, we can revisit the Shin'hare and other themes but it's not going to happen with one set.

Does that mean they should be buffed? No more than any other deck/theme, no.

ossuary
03-18-2014, 03:55 PM
Let me ask a serious question, because I haven't played Magic anything more than idly with friends for about 12 or 13 years now. "Tribe" decks have been tier 1 competitive in the past, have they not? Goblins, and sometimes Elves? Is that correct? Or were they just strong, but not tier 1?

I would expect tribes in Hex to be occasionally comparable to that, though almost certainly not in Set 1. There just aren't enough resources to make an all-around killer deck that can take on all comers (all of the tribes have major weaknesses and vulnerabilities, even though some of them also have strong synergy). If people legitimately think that none of the tribes are strong enough to EVER be tier 1, not just in Set 1 where the stable is still being developed but overall, then I would say they probably SHOULD get some kind of buff. But if it's just a temporary problem caused by lack of choices, that strength will come naturally with time and options.

stiii
03-18-2014, 04:22 PM
Let me ask a serious question, because I haven't played Magic anything more than idly with friends for about 12 or 13 years now. "Tribe" decks have been tier 1 competitive in the past, have they not? Goblins, and sometimes Elves? Is that correct? Or were they just strong, but not tier 1?

I would expect tribes in Hex to be occasionally comparable to that, though almost certainly not in Set 1. There just aren't enough resources to make an all-around killer deck that can take on all comers (all of the tribes have major weaknesses and vulnerabilities, even though some of them also have strong synergy). If people legitimately think that none of the tribes are strong enough to EVER be tier 1, not just in Set 1 where the stable is still being developed but overall, then I would say they probably SHOULD get some kind of buff. But if it's just a temporary problem caused by lack of choices, that strength will come naturally with time and options.

Tribal decks have been tier one a bunch of times. But this is over a pretty long time period, goblins for example was only really tier one once during onslaught block. Elves was tier one with glimpse combo but again probably only that one time. (tier one is very subjective). Merfolk has been tier one a bunch of times due to the strength of lord of atlantis. Faeries like goblins was tier one while lorwyn was legal.

All of these were synergistic decks that required a critical mass of tribal cards to function, which is rather hard with just one set.

Patrigan
03-19-2014, 06:46 AM
I personally think the Shin'hare tribe will be great for PvE, where I feel the orcs and humans might be lacking a bit more.

Dwarves will be good in PvE too.

I'm mostly wondering if it is needed to buff a tribe in PvP if it will have its place in PvE as well...

aatttt
03-19-2014, 08:08 AM
I think the Shin'hare just need one more card:

Run for cover
2 W
Quickaction
Void every Shin'hare you control. At the end of turn put all Shin'hare voided this way back into the game.

Xenavire
03-19-2014, 08:16 AM
I think the Shin'hare just need one more card:

Run for cover
2 W
Quickaction
Void every Shin'hare you control. At the end of turn put all Shin'hare voided this way back into the game.

Even being tribal, that is a powerful card for the cost. Moon'airu sensei would be great, any other come into play effects would be great... Even inspire etc. And it blocks all removal, even spot removal, and would nullify combat damage.

I think it would be better at 3 cost (wild can ramp anyway) and it would be better. Great idea, I can see that being powerful.

mudkip
03-19-2014, 08:47 AM
Even being tribal, that is a powerful card for the cost. Moon'airu sensei would be great, any other come into play effects would be great... Even inspire etc. And it blocks all removal, even spot removal, and would nullify combat damage.

This is a good point. It's an interesting sounding idea, but it could be something less OP with like "Tap all Shin'hare. All Shin'hare gain Spellshield and Invincible this turn."

Avaian
03-19-2014, 04:05 PM
I think the Shin'hare just need one more card:

Run for cover
2 W
Quickaction
Void every Shin'hare you control. At the end of turn put all Shin'hare voided this way back into the game.

Sadly this doesn't fit in with the lore of the Shin'Hare. The shin'hare wouldn't waste time running to cover to avoid something, they would just continue to march to their target, ignoring all casualties.

A card that I could see is a constant that puts a battle hopper in play every time a Shin'hare troops dies. But it would be ridiculously OP combined with sacrifice effects so you would need to make it so those don't trigger the constant.

Axle
03-19-2014, 04:10 PM
Then rename it to something related to a magical spell and turn it into a blood threshold. Then it would fit the lore of the blood cauldron Shin'hare.

Since the card is essentially a field wide blink for Shin'hares, it can be exactly like that in the lore sense as well. They just..vanished. Not to say I'm really on board with the card though. It's a bit too versatile in use and counters every problem not just specific problems.

Xenavire
03-19-2014, 04:27 PM
Sadly this doesn't fit in with the lore of the Shin'Hare. The shin'hare wouldn't waste time running to cover to avoid something, they would just continue to march to their target, ignoring all casualties.

A card that I could see is a constant that puts a battle hopper in play every time a Shin'hare troops dies. But it would be ridiculously OP combined with sacrifice effects so you would need to make it so those don't trigger the constant.

Just make it 'if a shin'hare would die because of combat' and you have yourself a card. I think it would be fairly powerful though.

ossuary
03-19-2014, 08:29 PM
A card that I could see is a constant that puts a battle hopper in play every time a Shin'hare troops dies. But it would be ridiculously OP combined with sacrifice effects so you would need to make it so those don't trigger the constant.

This. This makes far more sense than the blink effect. Have it say "When a non-Battle Hopper Shin'Hare you control dies in combat, create a Battle Hopper, put it into play, and exhaust it."

It's still probably stupidly OP though, especially when combined with Ritualist of the Spring Litter.