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Axle
03-23-2014, 02:33 PM
Something not really done on the forum very often. Lets just discuss a card without any arguments of asking for any changes to it. I feel this was a very powerful card added last patch but not much talk of it has been made.

http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/CeruleanMirrorKnight.jpg

I see this card viable in many many archetypes. The interesting thing about it in blood control decks is that it allows them to play a fairly heavy creature base and also extinction without fear of the two conflicting too much. Xentoth's Inquisitor will also be inspired by it each time it comes back into play causing the effect to draw a card when the troop dies to stack for multiple draws in one death.


In aggro this card makes me consider sapphire very heavily. Just for this one card. Just a small amount of sapphire shards added to the deck. It sacrifices a bit of the decks speed to give it security. The deck can force trades with their weak toughness troops and come out on top to push through the enemies lines until the opponent runs out of troops. Also important, the card turns Heat Wave and Extinction into even trades if all your troops on the board are inspired. You can rush for damage and fill the board right up when you fail. Poca synergy with the card is also great. The Blaze Elemental is forced to die at the end step giving you a 3/1 body and a draw off your charge power. Cons of the card for aggro would be not going mono ruby which can create early inconsistencies for your speed and that the troop only has 1 power barely contributing to the damage being dealt.

For the same reasons of superior trade and safety it is also very strong in midrange decks.

Cons are that it is only 1/2 and a troop. Many removal cards in the game including the artifact Sapper's Charge can shut it down before anything is inspired. However at the end this would only be a 1-1 trade.

Yeah from what I described the card sounds very powerful but
1) Maybe I'm overhyping
2) We can pretend this isn't a digital game and there is no way to change a card once it is printed.
3) Game would be boring without powerful cards. It is only a problem if every deck is suddenly playing Sapphire shards and counters to it.

So we can just have a normal discussion on the cards impact and ways for it to be played.

Axle
03-23-2014, 08:51 PM
Well I tried but it seems people just want to only talk about nerfs at this stage of the game and not just discuss new cards like people usually do in card games. Same thing happened with the reserve discussion thread.

Aozora
03-24-2014, 02:57 PM
I like him alot and he has much potentional. How would you build him into an aggro deck?

Axle
03-25-2014, 11:53 AM
Like I said you would use him so you don't instantly scoop up your cards to a heat wave or extinction. I think a aggro deck playing him is much stronger than a deck not playing him because they can't really survive against control without him. If you don't draw the card the deck functions much like regular aggro since it is a 1 threshold required deck unlike something like Blood which is chalk filled with double threshold cards. Running splashed sapphire won't get in the way other than extreme circumstances because you will usually draw 1 sapphire 1 ruby or 2 ruby. Inconsistency is increased a bit yes but it is much better than just losing because you have no way to recover.

Xenavire
03-25-2014, 01:34 PM
Like I said you would use him so you don't instantly scoop up your cards to a heat wave or extinction. I think a aggro deck playing him is much stronger than a deck not playing him because they can't really survive against control without him. If you don't draw the card the deck functions much like regular aggro since it is a 1 threshold required deck unlike something like Blood which is chalk filled with double threshold cards. Running splashed sapphire won't get in the way other than extreme circumstances because you will usually draw 1 sapphire 1 ruby or 2 ruby. Inconsistency is increased a bit yes but it is much better than just losing because you have no way to recover.

Aggro flyers is a great place for the knight. But overall I don't think it is nerf-worthy - powerful but limited. Often times you would rather have the troop, or you are playing combo and you wouldn't want troops much anyway. Or control, which tends to hate troops that don't pay off better than this.

I wouldn't mind building around this guy, but I gave it a few goes and the best one I found was spiders.

Axle
03-25-2014, 02:43 PM
Personally I'd rate the card as one of the top 10 cards in the game, being in the upper half. The card pays off more than most troops in the game. Why wouldn't you want superior trading ability? They have to block your troop and lose theirs, but you draw a card. Why wouldn't you want to be able to extinction your board or be extinctioned and lose nothing? The card lets aggro win the mirror if not burned because when your troops trade against each other your opponent will fall short. It's a 2 drop which a lot of control and midrange decks lack a decent amount of. The card saw a lot of play in the last tournament but the people who played it aren't talking because they only talk in their focus groups. I never said I wanted the card nerfed. I just want some discussion done in the forum about the set.

Xenavire
03-25-2014, 04:41 PM
I think it is great, but honestly it is overrated for set 1. When set 2 rolls around, it is going to be a powerhouse. Again, flight aggro wants it, and it works well, but most other aggro would rather just use another troop to pump out the damage faster - no need to draw/trade if you already won.

Not going to deny it has the potential to really throw a spanner in the works for opponents though. It will really shine sooner or later.

stiii
03-25-2014, 06:01 PM
This card just seems bad to me. A 1/2 is pretty much useless so you are relying on it drawing multiple cards over the course of the game.

Axle
03-25-2014, 06:37 PM
There is more to cards than doing damage ;). Of course I am relying on it drawing multiple cards over the course of a game. T2 Cerulean, T3 Fly/Inquisitor/whatever other 3 drop, T4 Vampire King/Dreamer. Not uncommon at all.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247201
If unanswered this card is a half a skullclamp but the upside is you only have to cast it once and it isn't limited to one creature at a time. The downside being creature removal but those are 1-1 situations which I would be perfectly fine with. By the way Skullclamp is banned in Magic when it was Standard, is banned in Modern and is banned in Legacy. Certainly Skullclamp has the advantage of being an artifact so every deck can run it (and did) but this this card is in no way bad just because it of stats. Creatures replacing themselves on death is a very powerful ability.

http://hextcgpro.proboards.com/thread/368/march-cs-top-8-decklists
Both blue decks played 20+ creatures and 3 or 4 extinctions to consistent use because of this card that they max to 4.

Give the card a chance in a troop deck you have running sapphire. You won't be disappointed.

stiii
03-25-2014, 07:39 PM
This card is nothing like skullclamp. Skullclamp killed your creatures. Skullclamp was also legal in standard for quite a while as I played with it.

My main issue with it is that it is a terrible top deck. You have to play it before all your other creatures otherwise it is terrible. Like the card is fine but I wouldn't want him in my deck. Maybe you have to play weaker cards with only one set to draw from.

Axle
03-25-2014, 07:57 PM
If you're top decking you're probably already going to lose the game and that is no way how to judge a card. How did you get to top decking in the first place? If you're both topdecking than the card becomes instantly great after you top another creature in the next turns to follow it up.


Play it before all your other creatures or it's terrible? Lol? It's a 2 drop. If you draw it later in the game you can hold it in your hand and wait for another creature to play it with. You..are playing creatures with your deck right?

I hate your reasoning so much. The very little there is of it anyways.

stiii
03-25-2014, 09:55 PM
I mean this is why you didn't get many replies in the first place. You want people to just agree with you how great this card is and if they don't you just complain about it. Sorry I didn't write a whole article on TCG theory.


And if you are top decking you are probably losing? This is just utter rubbish. And saying that cards that are powerful on their own are better is pretty obvious and IS in fact one way of judging a card.

As we are doing this it is your reasoning that is terrible. Card that require other cards to be good need to be powerful when those conditions occur. This just isn't that powerful. It doesn't become great after it triggers once, it just replaces itself. And then only after the second creature dies.

meetthefuture
03-26-2014, 02:44 AM
Yes, the card is bad when you are in topdeck mode - but it's insane power lever when it is drawn eraly in the game mitigates that.
I'd say, this card is a good example of low risk/high reward combination

Upd: After all the thinking, I guess I value this card so high because I'm always thinking of it being combined with Xenthoth's Inquisitor... Without it, CMK becomes much worse. So yeah, if we don't play it in Sapph/Blood - it's probably not really good

Axle
03-26-2014, 07:15 AM
I mean this is why you didn't get many replies in the first place. You want people to just agree with you how great this card is and if they don't you just complain about it. Sorry I didn't write a whole article on TCG theory.


And if you are top decking you are probably losing? This is just utter rubbish. And saying that cards that are powerful on their own are better is pretty obvious and IS in fact one way of judging a card.

As we are doing this it is your reasoning that is terrible. Card that require other cards to be good need to be powerful when those conditions occur. This just isn't that powerful. It doesn't become great after it triggers once, it just replaces itself. And then only after the second creature dies.

No. I want constructive criticism and not judging a card from when you dump your entire hand like a bad player and have already lost the game. This isn't a combo card that should require a certain specific card. This card should be built to work with EVERY creature in your deck because it is only a 2 drop. I just want people who have actually played the card to talk. Not like I want your opinion on the card if you've played it, you've proven that you will be biased regardless of the result. What Future said is okay. There isn't much wrong with his post though his post is very in the present thinking. But your reasoning is infinitely terrible.

Tinfoil
03-26-2014, 09:28 AM
I think its good with inquisitor, Blaze elemental and Falconeer. I have tried making a Ruby/Sapphire deck around it and its decent, but not really aggro. I think in many cases you will have to choose between that and cerulean mentalist, because both will slow down your deck a lot.

As Xena said I think its best in blue flyer deck or in B/S control.

stiii
03-26-2014, 03:06 PM
No. I want constructive criticism and not judging a card from when you dump your entire hand like a bad player and have already lost the game. This isn't a combo card that should require a certain specific card. This card should be built to work with EVERY creature in your deck because it is only a 2 drop. I just want people who have actually played the card to talk. Not like I want your opinion on the card if you've played it, you've proven that you will be biased regardless of the result. What Future said is okay. There isn't much wrong with his post though his post is very in the present thinking. But your reasoning is infinitely terrible.

And you say my reasoning is bad.

You are pretty much saying that I am a bad players therefore I'm wrong. Glad we cleared that up with such great logic. You don't want constructive criticism you want people to agree with you. You are the one judging it from best case and then complaining when I point out it is bad sometimes.

And yeah claiming I'm a bad player doesn't make it true, why should we think YOU are a good player?

stiii
03-26-2014, 03:13 PM
Yes, the card is bad when you are in topdeck mode - but it's insane power lever when it is drawn eraly in the game mitigates that.
I'd say, this card is a good example of low risk/high reward combination

Upd: After all the thinking, I guess I value this card so high because I'm always thinking of it being combined with Xenthoth's Inquisitor... Without it, CMK becomes much worse. So yeah, if we don't play it in Sapph/Blood - it's probably not really good

I guess my issue is that it still doesn't seem insane on turn two to me. The delay in getting those extra cards is huge you need to play out creatures and then have them die before it does anything. This is fine if you are playing against a grindy control deck but it is horrible against a combo deck.

For example look at this card against an eye deck. You won't get to draw those extra cards until after they have resolved their threat and you've chump blocked it. This means any discard or counterspells you draw aren't useful. You also aren't really gaining much from your creature dying either, you are blocking because you want the card rather than because it is the natural thing to do.

So yeah it is probably low risk you will get cards off it mostly but the reward isn't that great either some cards later on. You need to draw 3 cards on average otherwise you might as well just play oracle song and three is a lot.

Axle
03-26-2014, 03:23 PM
Seems you don't value the difference between a card costing 2 and a card costing 3. This card becomes terrible if it was a 3 drop however it's not. Turn 2 is a fairly weak turn in most control decks, outside of a very good draw of double blood+ inquisition and sometimes you might want to hold inquisition anyways. 2 drops are also very easy to put on the board and then play another card later in the turn.

The strength against an Eye deck is that I get to apply pressure with a full board and when they go off I get to resolve an extinction and draw an equal amount of cards as to creatures I had on the board -1 (the card not inspired being the mirror knight) + the number of times inquisitor was re-inspired. It entirely removes the risk of overextending in the game and lets me play with that in mind.

stiii
03-26-2014, 04:00 PM
And seems like you don't value the difference between draws two cards now and draw two cards later. So yeah much like you saying it would be bad if it is cost 3 I'd agree that this card would be good if it drew the cards right away.

Axle
03-26-2014, 04:10 PM
There are no cards that cost 2 that draw 2 cards man. They just don't exist and you should stop pretending they do. The cost of a card is incredibly important to it's viability. Having your turn 3 open is much more important than having your turn 2 open. Having a good curve is essential to deck building. The only thing other 2 cost cards do is cantrip and this card is far superior to a cantrip in a creature deck because it pays off at greater numbers.

stiii
03-26-2014, 07:22 PM
Nice strawman have you tried reading my posts?

A multiple turn delay really isn't that different to costing one more. I'm sorry you can't see that but it doesn't make it any less true. As you have to wait so long you hardly need to cast oracle song on turn three for the same effect. Or do I need to point out that you you don't have to cast three cost cards on turn three?

And yes having a good curve is important but that doesn't mean you should put bad cards in your deck because the other options also suck. Would you like to point out any other really obvious TCG concepts to seem smart?

Axle
03-26-2014, 08:25 PM
I've said what I want to say. You've said what you want to say. I think we're comparing potatoes and apples here and the topic was about fruits. I'm saying I don't think Oracle and Mirror Knight are comparable. One is insurance in building board presence and the other is instant gratification. A deck containing Mirror Knight will be built so that it gets more out of constant inspire over a single Oracle. Neither of us seem to be getting anywhere so I guess we're done please stop posting in my thread.

meetthefuture
03-27-2014, 12:20 AM
I guess my issue is that it still doesn't seem insane on turn two to me. The delay in getting those extra cards is huge you need to play out creatures and then have them die before it does anything. This is fine if you are playing against a grindy control deck but it is horrible against a combo deck.

For example look at this card against an eye deck. You won't get to draw those extra cards until after they have resolved their threat and you've chump blocked it. This means any discard or counterspells you draw aren't useful. You also aren't really gaining much from your creature dying either, you are blocking because you want the card rather than because it is the natural thing to do.

So yeah it is probably low risk you will get cards off it mostly but the reward isn't that great either some cards later on. You need to draw 3 cards on average otherwise you might as well just play oracle song and three is a lot.

Yeah, I see your point and I can't do anything but agree with it. As I have already said in update to previous post, I admit that I have overestimated that card. Though, I still think it's quite good in blood-sapphire troop-based decks, where you have an Inquizitor and the ways to produce tokens that are also inspired by CMK (Vamp King, Zombie Plague)

Axle
03-27-2014, 05:00 PM
Jtatta on Mirror Knight in podcast:
"I love this card! Inspire card...Turns all of your 2 drops and up into when they die draw a card. It's really really sweet in control match-ups and seems really sweet when you're just trying to trade all their troops. I think this card will see quite a bit of play in various decks and I don't think this is a card that is going away anytime soon either. "
"If you want to deal with extinction decks this is the card you should be playing 4 copies of".
"I don't have problems casting murders or anything too. I might even cast extinction for just this guy if I have to. I don't want my opponent to get so much value out of their troops".
"It goes in basically any deck that has troops in it".

Jcrawl on Mirror Knight in podcast:
It's just one of those cards that you see it and it's just like "Yep. It's just really good". "It's just like Vampire King! Alright..cool..More really good cards to the already really good colors!"

Zubrin on Mirror Knight in podcast:
This card is insane. It just blows my mind how much card advantage it generates especially to black blue decks where you have Xentoth Inquisitors that you keep on replaying and the inspiration stacks."
"I've never seen a 2 cost that has had a bigger target on its head for my removal. Puck? Not even close to how much I have to kill Cerulean Mirror Knight as soon as it hits the table.
"He's 2 cost! He inspires almost every guy in your deck!"


I made all these arguments too but they didn't post in this thread which makes me feel really sad because it helps support that the only people who post to actually contribute ideas to this forum are the ones who disagree with what the topic creator posts which creates a false representation of opinion. Same thing happens in Tinfoils thread.

stiii
03-27-2014, 07:21 PM
You ask me to stop post in this thread, which I do. So you respond by sending my a taunting private message?


http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=34162&page=3&p=348492&viewfull=1#post348492

must suck to suck man

I'm not even really sure what your point is? Some people on a pod cast agree with you, so what? It just links back to you only wanting to listen to people who agree with you.

Axle
03-27-2014, 07:24 PM
I admit I am very immature at times when I am angry but when I meet a player so bad they can't see it in themselves I just can't control myself. Apologies for not letting you run away with your head held high. Asking you not to post was just a trick to get you to go away for awhile I suppose. Of all the people in the thread I only targeted you because of your terrible reasoning and poor understanding of the game.

meetthefuture
03-28-2014, 12:34 AM
Jeremy, John and Michael just do the same thing as I did - they just look at the card and automaticly assign it to the blood-sapphire build - which is awesome, and where CMK fits perfectly. But thinking outside that deck - I don't see much space for knight to fit.
So yeah, the knight is good, but I wouldn't include it in the list of "the best cards of set 1"

Axle
03-28-2014, 06:52 AM
They actually didn't do the same thing. They never doubted the card at all like you and said very good things about it. I listed only some of the praise, there was a lot more. Clearly B/S is the best deck for it right now because blood is insane but this card is going to be important for other decks in the future easily.

stiii
03-28-2014, 12:22 PM
I admit I am very immature at times when I am angry but when I meet a player so bad they can't see it in themselves I just can't control myself. Apologies for not letting you run away with your head held high. Asking you not to post was just a trick to get you to go away for awhile I suppose. Of all the people in the thread I only targeted you because of your terrible reasoning and poor understanding of the game.

Yeah yeah I'm awful because I disagree with you. Repeating this over and over doesn't make it true. You seems to have an insanely high opinion of yourself, got anything to back this up other than a massive ego?

Your argument is rather circular I'm wrong because of my terrible logic and I have terrible logic because I'm bad and I'm bad because you think I'm wrong.

Carcosa
04-08-2014, 12:07 AM
I like this card, haven't had enough experience to judge how strong it is in the long run, but had a fun draft with it the other day.
Had a ruby/saphire-deck with the Cerulean Mirror Knight and Plan C. Dropping Plan C midgame gave me a horde of bots which forced my opponents to sacrifice most of his (more valuable) troops in defense. Most of my bots were killed of in the process, but thanks to the knight that got me enough cards on my hand to keep my momentum and win the game.

Probably a combo that won't work in constructed, but still fun in draft.

jtatta
04-09-2014, 11:21 AM
This thread is getting super derailed, sheesh.

Axle, Stu does make some good points and I do understand where he's coming from. That said, I disagree with him on some things but I'm not gonna fight him about it like you seem to want to. Let's just agree to disagree sometimes.

The card is very good in certain decks. In a vacuum the card is very average as it requires other cards to synergize with it and is a very bad draw late game. That said, my love affair comes from being able to stack multiple inspire triggers on an Inquisitor which is very, very good in Blood/x mirror matches. That also happens to be one of the best/most popular decks. I'm not sure how awesome it is in non-B/S decks but I'm trying it in other builds as well. The fact of the matter is that the card draw in Hex is lacking so cards like Mirror Knight, who are average in other games, just get a bit better.

- John

Axle
04-09-2014, 12:49 PM
I'm willing to just let this thread die and the history of the card turns to how the game develops and not whether or not a couple players think it's good or not. At the end of the day it's the results of the entire block that will tell who was right on the card but by then I suppose no one will care. I'm not going to dismiss how good a card is because Sphinx's Revelations might be printed one day.

stiii
04-09-2014, 01:07 PM
Funny how you were quoting a few people to "prove" this card was good earlier and now you are saying a couple of players thinking something doesn't matter.

Axle
04-09-2014, 01:14 PM
Not really. Can't do much to people dismissing cards because in the future Sphinx Revelations will be printed. I just realized results will work better than words in this case no matter what either of us says. Anyways real talk this guy isn't that great at theory. This is the guy who posted this:
http://hextcgpro.com/a-metagame-analysis-challenge-series-preview/

Not a single one of those decks were real and viable going into the event and his eoc was way off base on what the deck should be trying to accomplish. He thought that b/r spiders was the best deck after they lost persecute and prime ruby of destruction. By now I realized he very often turns his back on his own words. I even quoted him saying that the card will be prevalent for a very long time. I wouldn't really trust anything he says as his actual opinion if I were you.

jtatta
04-09-2014, 01:23 PM
...

Did I just get insulted for not knowing what the best version of Eye of Creation was so early in the history of the game? Insulted because I said that I thought that the Spider's deck was still the best deck? It's pretty easy to go back in time and be like "man, that guy was way off" rather than, "man, that guy pointed out that EoC and Blue/Black were two of the better decks in the format." I may not have posted optimal lists, but was I wrong in determining the metagame? I don't think that I was.

You seem to pick on a lot of people with a very long and successful gaming background. Not really sure what you're getting at.

- John

Axle
04-09-2014, 01:27 PM
Eye doesn't max puck? Argus isn't important for the mirror match so lets only run 1? Guardian doesn't blow out other decks so lets only run 1? Seems like pretty bad calls that are obvious before the event. All it took was a few games of testing eyes to realize that they should be focusing their main decks on themselves. Not to mention it's really not hard to see that a gem that doesn't generate card advantage doesn't make a color worth playing. Prime Destruction was clearly the #1 reason to play Ruby and after the nerf I don't think anyone else but you really thought otherwise.

jtatta
04-09-2014, 01:34 PM
Eye doesn't max puck? Argus isn't important for the mirror match so lets only run 1? Guardian doesn't blow out other decks so lets only run 1? Seems like pretty bad calls that are obvious before the event. All it took was a few games of testing eyes to realize that they should be focusing their main decks on themselves. Not to mention it's really not hard to see that a gem that doesn't generate card advantage doesn't make a color worth playing. Prime Destruction was clearly the #1 reason to play Ruby and after the nerf I don't think anyone else but you really thought otherwise.

Well then, I must be the worst player in the entire world. Arguing with you is a waste of breath for everyone involved but somehow we always get sucked in. I specifically said IN THE ARTICLE that these versions weren't ideal. That they were a good place to start. I don't test each deck 20 games before writing about them. I test a handful of games with each one to make sure that they're playable and then write about them.

If you're such a sage and can figure out the metagame so quickly, why didn't you do very well in the event? Why don't you write articles and fill us in where I'm wrong? Until you can make a point, and actually back it up, you shouldn't be calling out people who do.

- John

Axle
04-09-2014, 01:45 PM
"I'm not srs with everything I post guys! I don't want to be called out for being wrong so I'm gonna post they're not the best they can be so I can keep my integrity!!"

Anyways, to your question, it's because I don't have any motives like pushing content on my site just to market for my store? Your end game was your store and it always has been. You have something to do with a clothing store right? Something about a business degree? Seems normal for you to know how to make an entire site just to market it. It's why TCGPlayer and other article sites exist. For their store.

Don't know if you realized but card games involve luck and bubbling a tournament happens to everyone. Have you topped every single tournament you've entered? Not that I really care too much about 100 person regionals (which is inflated due to online = no travel required) which is why I wanted results from the entire block.

stiii
04-09-2014, 01:57 PM
By now I realized he very often turns his back on his own words. I even quoted him saying that the card will be prevalent for a very long time. I wouldn't really trust anything he says as his actual opinion if I were you.

The irony of this burns soooo much. Your opinion of Jtatta seems to have changed over the course of this thread. You have turned back on your own words.

Earlier in this thread you posted quotes from three people including Jtatta saying that they liked Mirror Knight. You seemed to think this was so important you PMed me with "must suck to suck man". This implies that you think these people are experts and that their opinion's matter. Yet later on in the same thread you are telling us how terrible Jtatta is.

Which just exposes how utterly nonsensical it is to complain when someone changes their mind on an issue.

Axle
04-09-2014, 01:58 PM
No. I still think you suck. That hasn't changed.

Axle
04-09-2014, 02:03 PM
Saying something you believe in and not running away from it with cop out sentences "well I might be wrong so don't hold me to it!" is easy. If I'm wrong I won't make excuses and I won't try to tell someone that no one would possibly know and that's why I was wrong.
Here I'll do it right now.

Royal Falconer is going to be a very important card.

stiii
04-09-2014, 02:04 PM
"I'm not srs with everything I post guys! I don't want to be called out for being wrong so I'm gonna post they're not the best they can be so I can keep my integrity!!"

Anyways, to your question, it's because I don't have any motives like pushing content on my site just to market for my store? Your end game was your store and it always has been. You have something to do with a clothing store right? Something about a business degree? Seems normal for you to know how to make an entire site just to market it. It's why TCGPlayer and other article sites exist. For their store.

Don't know if you realized but card games involve luck and bubbling a tournament happens to everyone. Have you topped every single tournament you've entered? Not that I really care too much about 100 person regionals (which is inflated due to online = no travel required) which is why I wanted results from the entire block.

Assuming for a second that Jtatta has this evil plan, what exactly does he gain from it? He incorrectly predicts what will be the top decks so he gains what exactly?

stiii
04-09-2014, 02:06 PM
No. I still think you suck. That hasn't changed.

At no point in my post was I talking about me. How this was unclear is just baffling to me.

Axle
04-09-2014, 02:06 PM
Well that's his fault as a player and not as the person trying to gain players committed to his site so he can make the $$$.

jtatta
04-09-2014, 02:10 PM
"I'm not srs with everything I post guys! I don't want to be called out for being wrong so I'm gonna post they're not the best they can be so I can keep my integrity!!"

Anyways, to your question, it's because I don't have any motives like pushing content on my site just to market for my store? Your end game was your store and it always has been. You have something to do with a clothing store right? Something about a business degree? Seems normal for you to know how to make an entire site just to market it. It's why TCGPlayer and other article sites exist. For their store.

Don't know if you realized but card games involve luck and bubbling a tournament happens to everyone. Have you topped every single tournament you've entered? Not that I really care too much about 100 person regionals (which is inflated due to online = no travel required) which is why I wanted results from the entire block.

Look dude, this is getting really old. My site, and what I do with it, is really not your concern. My end game was never to make a store. I wasn't even considering it until a little while back someone asked us if we were going to have one and I figured why not. I have experience in business and figured that I could do something pretty awesome. I don't write article to promote my store. The fact that you think so is pretty astounding to me. I don't make a profit on Hex. Every CS event I lose money. I don't care because I feel like I'm giving something to the community.

You're talking out of your ass at every turn and you flip flop opinions about as much as a politician. I'm not sure what your challonge name is but if it's Axle or dmcAxle you didn't bubble the tournament. That's not the point though.

Does Patrick Chapin break the format in every article he writes? Hardly. And you have to pay for his content.

- John

stiii
04-09-2014, 02:11 PM
Saying something you believe in and not running away from it with cop out sentences "well I might be wrong so don't hold me to it!" is easy. If I'm wrong I won't make excuses and I won't try to tell someone that no one would possibly know and that's why I was wrong.
Here I'll do it right now.

Royal Falconer is going to be a very important card.

Claiming something is going to be important is a cop out. Almost whatever happens you can claim it was correct, you only need someone to play it at some point.

You complain about others failing to perfectly predict the meta game and when called on it you say one card will be important? Yeah it is pretty easy to be correct when you don't really say anything.

stiii
04-09-2014, 02:12 PM
Well that's his fault as a player and not as the person trying to gain players committed to his site so he can make the $$$.

Nice non answer.

Axle
04-09-2014, 02:18 PM
Sucks that you pay for his articles instead of thinking for yourself on the matter then?

@ Stii
Never thought they were experts. Just players that had an opinion on the matter and didn't actually post. Maybe they viewed my thread and stole my ideas on the card? Who knows. Everything they said is something I posted in my thread far before them after all. You said players weren't posting so I showed players that should have posted but were probably too scared to get involved or something. Yeah my opinion changed of the guy after he turned out to be such a wuss and afraid of being viewed as bad using excuses like that no one would actually know what would happen and he didn't test all of the decks.

@Stii #2
I've already been the first person to actually talk about the card in a positive light and say something of the matter. Before that it seemed pretty under the radar to me. I'm already leagues ahead in that. I'm not someone who would give everything away though. That's up to you as a player. Don't come to me trying to steal ideas man :p. I've already given you enough deck ideas and some of the cards you should play with it are scattered in threads in the alpha discussion maybe you can find them.

stiii
04-09-2014, 02:29 PM
You keep acting like you are an expert got any evidence that is the case? All I see is a massive ego. The arrogance in your posts is just absurd, maybe they stole your ideas.....

I never said players weren't posting, this is just a feeble fabrication. Quote where I said this. Also too scared lololol more like didn't want to talk to you. I bet Jtatta is regretting talking to you right now.

Axle
04-09-2014, 02:46 PM
No one has evidence. The game is in Alpha. Which means right now I must talk to you with theory rather than results because there are barely any results for decks in an ever changing series of card balance.

As a player, theory speaks louder than a persons individual player results. Not that there are any credible ones to be given to anyone.

As a deck, deck results speak louder than individual player theory. It's easy to just throw your ideas around and other people will pilot the deck for you. This thread is eternal so we can go back to it later if you wish and go back to who was right or wrong like the petty children we are.

Get it?
I don't care how well you do in tournaments if I beat you in theory I am a better player than you. We're not talking skill during games here, we're talking intelligence in evaluating cards in this topic.

So when the time comes and the game is developed enough, results beat your theory or mine, then that theory with the proper results was the winner.

Also in what I'm saying is that players do not exist as an individual in tournament results, but rather decks and the amount of them exist is all that matters. So that one individual player topping doesn't mean shit when the rest of the events an entirely different ball game from what they were playing. Luck can come into play to a persons top with a deck (Not calling the player lucky..but the deck. Because who really cares who the player is). So many of which we would see from further events with that deck. Certainly meta calls exist but we can examine their draws to see whether or not the dice were on their side and we can evaluate if it was truly a meta call or just an inconsistent deck that drew consistent for once. If the game ever gets popular for giant events I also expect 90% of the people who boast about tops in other card games to become obsolete and they will realize they had an advantage over everyone else before because they could travel to literally every single event. As players they're not actually that special and maybe they even have nothing going for them in theory as shown here.

stiii
04-09-2014, 02:59 PM
I like how you are preemptively saying results don't matter so you can continue to declare yourself better than everyone else without every winning anything. Nice fantasy world you are living in. One where you just declare victory in theory. Which as there is no way for anyone to prove they are right means you can always declare victory forever.

I also note that in your long rambling post you didn't bother to show where I said players weren't posting. So I guess your theory includes just making things up too.

parogui
04-09-2014, 03:24 PM
In theory this is the dumbest discussion I've ever read in a loooong time. No wait, it's in reality!

Axle
04-09-2014, 03:25 PM
Nah. I can be wrong in theory which is what this thread is about. It has never been about a players results.

I don't really care whether they post or not and whether it helps me because as shown in Dan's thread and everyone saying concu won't be changed (and then it's changed), the community being on your side doesn't really matter.

Axle
04-09-2014, 03:26 PM
In theory this is the dumbest discussion I've ever read in a loooong time. No wait, it's in reality!

It's okay if you can't keep up. You don't have to tell us.

stiii
04-09-2014, 03:35 PM
In theory this is the dumbest discussion I've ever read in a loooong time. No wait, it's in reality!

In theory is all the matters!

Yes this lame joke is the "best" thing about this thread.

stiii
04-09-2014, 03:37 PM
Nah. I can be wrong in theory which is what this thread is about. It has never been about a players results.

I don't really care whether they post or not and whether it helps me because as shown in Dan's thread and everyone saying concu won't be changed (and then it's changed), the community being on your side doesn't really matter.

And exactly would we know if you were wrong in theory? You've already said what other people think or say doesn't matter.

hammer
04-09-2014, 03:59 PM
It's okay if you can't keep up. You don't have to tell us.

You must be Stok3d! Makes sense now....

jtatta
04-09-2014, 04:27 PM
I'm a wuss now? What is this, kindergarten? Lol.

At this point I just grab my popcorn every time you show up on the forums. I guess you could always, you know, not read my articles. Crazy concept I know.

stiii
04-09-2014, 04:49 PM
I'm a wuss now? What is this, kindergarten? Lol.

At this point I just grab my popcorn every time you show up on the forums. I guess you could always, you know, not read my articles. Crazy concept I know.

I mean this is the guy who asked me to stop posting in this thread and when I did responded by PMing me "must suck to suck man". So yeah he probably is about 12.

Axle
04-09-2014, 08:55 PM
In all my posts it's always been about the players ability to look at cards and tell whether they're good or not. See what cards are synergistic and create good decks. I've never made any of my posts personal outside of public knowledge talked about on a stream or something like the "business degree" statement I made. I don't intend to make it personal overall. Stii couldn't let it go though so my anger tipped over the scale. He couldn't just leave it at "we'll wait for results". Oh well. Calling you bad or saying that you're afraid to commit to anything you do isn't really personal to you as a person but just as a player. Trying to make it change to something other than the card game is pretty petty. I'm the king of petty so what do I know though?

I'll back off from the forums for awhile and cool off. You can all rejoice. It's the end of the semester anyways so I should probably not be playing hex too much.

Jyndreytu
04-09-2014, 09:52 PM
Well then, I must be the worst player in the entire world.

- John

qft

stiii
04-09-2014, 10:37 PM
In all my posts it's always been about the players ability to look at cards and tell whether they're good or not. See what cards are synergistic and create good decks. I've never made any of my posts personal outside of public knowledge talked about on a stream or something like the "business degree" statement I made. I don't intend to make it personal overall. Stii couldn't let it go though so my anger tipped over the scale. He couldn't just leave it at "we'll wait for results". Oh well. Calling you bad or saying that you're afraid to commit to anything you do isn't really personal to you as a person but just as a player. Trying to make it change to something other than the card game is pretty petty. I'm the king of petty so what do I know though?

I'll back off from the forums for awhile and cool off. You can all rejoice. It's the end of the semester anyways so I should probably not be playing hex too much.

I like how you mix saying YOUR anger tipped over and yet it is still MY fault.

Your reasoning is just terrible as has been shown over and over in this thread. Therefore you are an idiot. This by your own logic isn't personal. All I'm doing is taking things you said as a players and calling them wrong. Then following that logic means you are an idiot.

I don't even know if you'd think that was a reasonable chain of logic based on the crazy things you've said so far or you are just two faced enough that you are fine with insulting others but it somehow doesn't count when you do it.

Gwaer
04-09-2014, 11:08 PM
I said once that "I'd make a terrible mod since I'd never close threads. I like discussion too much."

I'd have closed this nonsense 40 posts ago...

Xenavire
04-11-2014, 08:53 PM
Well, that was entertaining. I never thought anyone would top my levels of foot in mouth syndrome, but I think we have seen me blown away by a real pro.

The lesson here is to always stop about 10 posts before you realise you look like an idiot.

stiii
04-11-2014, 09:10 PM
I'm glad you enjoyed it. Started off a bit dull with his hyperbole vs my hyperbole but it really kicked off when Axle decided he really want to fight Jtatta as well.

Axle
04-11-2014, 09:32 PM
This thread isn't actually over. I can agree to being a complete asshole, but at the core of this thread it is about Cerulean Mirror Knight. So instead of pushing the issue like Xenavire and Stiii until a mod closes it, why don't we just wait for the block results and see who is wrong or right on that. Because at the end these quotes

This card just seems bad to me. A 1/2 is pretty much useless so you are relying on it drawing multiple cards over the course of the game.

Maybe you have to play weaker cards with only one set to draw from.
Might just end up one of the worst meta calls in HEX. We will see.

stiii
04-11-2014, 09:50 PM
I mean I'm sure you'll declare victory whatever happens anyway, you pretty much already have. If any decks have knight in them you'll say I was wrong. You haven't bothered to define any parameters so anything can be counted as a win in the future.

The second line in particular are you planning on waiting a year to see what happens when we have three+ sets out?

stiii
04-11-2014, 09:51 PM
Also how many times are you going to claim that you are finished posting in a feeble attempt to get the last word? Seems like you must be going for the world record as you do it over and over.

Axle
04-11-2014, 09:53 PM
I mean I'm sure you'll declare victory whatever happens anyway, you pretty much already have. If any decks have knight in them you'll say I was wrong. You haven't bothered to define any parameters so anything can be counted as a win in the future.

The second line in particular are you planning on waiting a year to see what happens when we have three+ sets out?

Bad cards aren't supposed to be played at all in competitive play. Because they're bad. If it sees plenty of competitive play, then it is a good card or a situational card but not a bad card.

What parameters do you have in mind other than good and bad card?

stiii
04-11-2014, 10:00 PM
I like how I can predict your terrible argument before you even make them.

So if any deck with knight in it does well in any competitive event ever you are right? Sure is easy to just declare victory with such a low bar.

Axle
04-11-2014, 10:01 PM
plenty of competitive play

10char

stiii
04-11-2014, 10:05 PM
Personally I'd rate the card as one of the top 10 cards in the game, being in the upper half. The card pays off more than most troops in the game. Why wouldn't you want superior trading ability? They have to block your troop and lose theirs, but you draw a card. Why wouldn't you want to be able to extinction your board or be extinctioned and lose nothing? The card lets aggro win the mirror if not burned because when your troops trade against each other your opponent will fall short. It's a 2 drop which a lot of control and midrange decks lack a decent amount of. The card saw a lot of play in the last tournament but the people who played it aren't talking because they only talk in their focus groups. I never said I wanted the card nerfed. I just want some discussion done in the forum about the set.

So as you claimed this card is in the top 10, the top half of that in fact I guess it is only fair that I hold you to that. So you are wrong unless this card is at least the 5th most popular card in events.

I mean if I'm wrong if anyone plays it ever I can at least hold you to things you directly said.

stiii
04-11-2014, 10:06 PM
Bad cards aren't supposed to be played at all in competitive play. Because they're bad. If it sees plenty of competitive play, then it is a good card or a situational card but not a bad card.

What parameters do you have in mind other than good and bad card?

Plenty being a vague weasel word. Something you can claim is true pretty much whatever happens. I guess it is hardly a shock as you've already started making things up in this thread anyway.

Axle
04-11-2014, 10:12 PM
Nah, I can't claim it's true no matter what happens. If the card falls into obscurity and is never played then the card is bad at the time which means I am wrong. If the card is played in troop based sapphire decks in the meta, then the card isn't bad. What's so weasel about that? You're the one who is advocating against the card being good.

Top 10 in set 1. Sure. I'm not saying it's going to be top 10 in the game forever. So yeah you can hold me to that during the entirety of set 1 and if I'm wrong on that then I'm wrong.
Though the logic of it being the most popular in the event relating to it's strength as best cards in the set is wrong though. For example, a card can be a 1 of bomb in decks but still be the best card in the game. Not saying there is a card like that but I wouldn't use popularity like 30 copies of x card vs 20 copies of x card to evaluate strength. Can you think of any method better than that? I don't think it's that simple.

stiii
04-11-2014, 10:19 PM
It is weasel because you haven't even slightly defined what counts as plenty. What percentage of decks need to play it before it counts as plenty? What counts as competitive?

Axle
04-11-2014, 10:34 PM
Played within the top 5 or 10% of players in the ranked ladder (depends on games popularity to what "high elo" is considered in %), played by players who top high profile tournaments, etc, is competitive. Shows up in more than one event or more than a handful of players deck in the top % of elo. Then it has proven itself as a "good card". Not as an "important card" which would be speaking of my claim and not yours. That's in my opinion though.

So I have to ask:
What do you Stii, think a card needs to do to prove itself as being good?

stiii
04-11-2014, 10:57 PM
That is better defined but it will still consider a huge number of cards good. A large proportion of cards from the first set will show up in high profile events at some point over a long enough time period. By this standard pretty much any card which isn't strictly limited fodder counts as good.

If every non terrible card counts as good it becomes meaningless.

Axle
04-11-2014, 11:22 PM
I consider every card that isn't limited/casual play fodder as good but that's just me. So yeah of course as better cards get printed then those cards will be played over the old ones. Obviously Murder won't be played for long if a 2 cost version was printed. I don't think there is much way to predict that though. An extremer example is if they print a card that is exactly the same as Angel of Dawn except 5/5 and says "This card is treated as Angel of Dawn always". Therefore you can only have 4 of it or Angel of Dawn and then Angel of Dawn is suddenly a bad card.

If cards of the same power level are added in each set and there is very little power creep then I believe Cerulean Mirror Knight will remain an important card but I can't really predict the game past what we currently have that much except assuming it won't get worse.

Also the difference between a lot of popular cards like Murder and Extinction to Mirror Knight is that Mirror Knight is a unique card to HEX that likely won't have any new cards similar to it but the effect of Exinction and Murder will be played around with very often in block. Which is why "Murder being good" and "Mirror Knight being good" is a different subject when looking at results.