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View Full Version : That space between swiftstrike and regular damage...



Tinuvas
03-24-2014, 02:36 PM
Over in 'Alan's crazy bug (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=34016)' thread, it was briefly mentioned that some people felt that the decision point between swiftstrike damage and regular damage was a viable candidate for removal to speed up gameplay a touch. I know that in previous discussions dealing with removal of game-play points many passionate pleas were made to bring back/keep the prep phase decision point. I was one of those. However, I'm thinking that the post-swiftstrike damage point is a bit superfluous.

So I want to throw this out there as a discussion. I doubt it will register as something that will make enough of a difference to notice, but can we get rid of it without messing up the game? I think we can. Anyone with a supporting or dissenting view point?

Gwaer
03-24-2014, 02:44 PM
*shrug* It can be tactically useful... I'm generally against removing any stop, but if one had to be removed it might be the best candidate.

hex_colin
03-24-2014, 02:46 PM
*shrug* It can be tactically useful... I'm generally against removing any stop, but if one had to be removed it might be the best candidate.

Yeah, I'd prefer that it was just another option for the phase stop settings rather than outright removal.

Xenavire
03-24-2014, 02:46 PM
I am not actually sure why there is a stop there at all. I am usually against removal of stops, but unless there is a specific reason for that stop, it is probably better removed - we have our chances to interact in combat, we don't need a mid-combat minigame on top of that.

Kroan
03-24-2014, 02:48 PM
It's a pretty important step I don't want to miss. Make it an optional stop that you can set in your settings.

Xenavire
03-24-2014, 02:51 PM
It's a pretty important step I don't want to miss. Make it an optional stop that you can set in your settings.

I would like to know why the post swiftstrike, pre-normal damage stop is important. What exactly do you do there that cannot be done before all damage is dealt?

Avaian
03-24-2014, 02:58 PM
I would like to know why the post swiftstrike, pre-normal damage stop is important. What exactly do you do there that cannot be done before all damage is dealt?

Currently reversion.

In the future, who knows.

Kroan
03-24-2014, 02:58 PM
Take this example from magic:


If my opponent attacks with an Ajani's Pridemate that has two +1/+1 counters on it, and is 4/4. I block with Vampire Hexmage. Vampire Hexmage deals 2 first strike damage to Ajani's Pridemate, and then both players get priority to cast spells, during which I can sacrifice the Hexmage to remove the counters from the Pridemate, which will result in the Pridemate dying from the two damage already on it.

Hexmage is a 2/1 first strike that you can sacrifice to remove counters from a permanent.

It's just a small example from magic, but these things

Aradon
03-24-2014, 03:06 PM
Agreed, it's got some tactical value, and since it doesn't even show up in many games, I don't think its removal even offers that much value.

Svenn
03-24-2014, 03:35 PM
The best question to ask is what can you currently do with this phase that you can't already do with the Declared Defender's priority step. I can't think of much, if anything. If reversion allows you to remove the damage, that's one thing...

I'd be fine with just removing it as a default stop and letting players turn it on if they need to.

Xenavire
03-24-2014, 03:42 PM
Well, I can't say for certain that it would be a benefit to remove it, but the benefits to keeping it aren't exactly overwhelming.

It isn't enough of a nuisance that I would want to commit to removing it yet, but I do agree with making it a non-standard stop.

Showsni
03-24-2014, 04:11 PM
It's kind of like damage on the stack in Magic; you stack damage, then sacrifice your Mogg Fanatic to deal an extra point. They changed it so that you could no longer do that; but if he has first strike, you can let first strike damage resolve, then sac it, and achieve pretty much the same effect as before.

Personally, I liked damage on the stack, and miss it; but in the interests of speeding the game up and making things simpler, since Hex has also gone down the no damage on the stack route, I can easily see them not having a seperate Swiftstrike priority step too. But I do feel it could open up some card design to keep it.

Xenavire
03-24-2014, 04:24 PM
It's kind of like damage on the stack in Magic; you stack damage, then sacrifice your Mogg Fanatic to deal an extra point. They changed it so that you could no longer do that; but if he has first strike, you can let first strike damage resolve, then sac it, and achieve pretty much the same effect as before.

Personally, I liked damage on the stack, and miss it; but in the interests of speeding the game up and making things simpler, since Hex has also gone down the no damage on the stack route, I can easily see them not having a seperate Swiftstrike priority step too. But I do feel it could open up some card design to keep it.

I miss damage on the stack. It was just a skill you learnt, I don't see why it had to change for MTG.

Yoss
03-24-2014, 05:02 PM
I'd be fine with having an option to turn off that stop. The MTG example above is great, since I hadn't figured out what anyone would use that stop for. So, like the Prep stop, it can be useful sometimes. However, I would like to turn it off for most of my games and then just turn it on if there's some swiftstrike trick in my deck. (Just like I turn off the Prep stop most of the time, but then turn it on when I'm playing a deck with exhaust effects or things I need to do before the Draw.)

stiii
03-24-2014, 05:20 PM
What exactly do we gain from removing this stop? Removing it from presets is fine but entirely?

YourOpponent
03-24-2014, 05:22 PM
In my raptor deck I like to use them to attack with swifstrike and then if their target is still alive time ripple the raptor so they go back to my hand...that way my raptor doesn't die if it's low on health...and I can use something else to finish killing whatever the raptor damaged.

I am fine with people having the option to turn off that part, but think it would be nice for it to be on by default.

Rycajo
03-24-2014, 05:43 PM
Leaving the stop allows for more design space. Many things could be done in the space in between that would be worthwhile. However, the real question is whether that design space is something CZE wants to use. If CZE doesn't want you to do tricks between swiftstrike and normal damage, the stop should go. If they want to allow you to do that, keeping the stop is important.

ossuary
03-25-2014, 05:01 AM
I legitimately had no idea that there was a priority stop in Magic between first strike damage and regular damage. :)

The more you know... (rainbow star)

As I have said many times before, I'm not a fan of removing phases entirely. I was probably one of the loudest opponents of all the stack / stop changes that CZE tried to make over the last 6 months. That being said, this phase seems like a prime candidate to set to off by default. I feel like it would very rarely be used, but it should be an option for those running a specific deck that can make use of it.

Alequel
03-25-2014, 06:00 AM
Two words to all of the magic players that will explain why we need the stop

DOUBLE STRIKE simple as that. :D

Alequel
03-25-2014, 06:12 AM
Ok I felt kinda bad so I'll explain what double strike is; a creature with double strike in mtg strikes both first strike damage and normal strike damage, there are creatures like vampire themed ones that benefits quite well from that. A 1/1 Vampire creature gets +1/+1 for every damage it deals to the opposing player so a 1/1 Vampire creature with double strike would deal the first strike damage, become 2/2 than deal 2 more dmg during normal strike damage and become a 3/3 at the end of combat.

Things like these open up a lot of diversity and require you to have both first strike and normal strike phases during combat.

ossuary
03-25-2014, 06:32 AM
I don't think anyone was trying to say we shouldn't have the 2 phases at ALL, just that there shouldn't necessarily be a hard stop in between them (the system would still process both steps, we just wouldn't get an opportunity to cast spells there).

But I'm in favor of just removing the default to stop there, and making you have to turn it on manually if you want to use it.

Lonenut
03-25-2014, 08:01 AM
I'm perfectly comfortable with sacrificing the incredibly, incredibly rare interactions that sometimes take place in the post-swiftstrike phase in order to streamline a bit.

Tinuvas
03-25-2014, 08:02 AM
Most of the thoughts I've seen here talk about keeping the stop, but leaving it off by default. Hadn't thought about that. The game doesn't have that as one of the selectable stops, so that would have to be looked at deeper down in the design and code. I would rather have it or not, but (and I'm very glad this is the case) this is nowhere NEAR the big deal that the prep phase was to me.

loopholist3
03-25-2014, 08:19 AM
I am for getting rid of this stop. If damage isn't going to be on the stack, why should we have a phase that allows us to do things as if it was.

As a side note, I find this stop annoying most of the time because it changes the number of stops between main phase 1 and main phase 2, and increases the chance that I will click the pass bar too many times by accident. But this just might be a personal problem.

LeMazing
03-25-2014, 08:21 AM
I'm perfectly comfortable with sacrificing the incredibly, incredibly rare interactions that sometimes take place in the post-swiftstrike phase in order to streamline a bit. And by removing it we'll see a benefit incredibly, incredibly rarely.

I don't really care either way on the removal of this priority step. It offers some cool interactions, but I agree they are pretty rare.
I just think that removing something because it rarely happens hurts the game more than it helps, since the benefit would be seen just as rarely as the detriment.

Cernz
03-25-2014, 08:23 AM
maybe there are some more interactions during this phase with set2 and future sets,
therefore i would recommend to keep this phase/stop.

loopholist3
03-25-2014, 08:27 AM
Can you give your opponent first strike to make them skip dealing damage all together, and if you remove first strike from yourself, do you effectively gain double strike for the turn?

knightofeffect
03-25-2014, 08:27 AM
If reverting away damage works, then this would be a pretty significant change. Although, I'm not sure CZE would want to punish swiftstrike in double-block scenarios like that in the first place. On the flip side, being able to bounce a first-strike troop after it has delt it's damage is a pretty nifty combat trick as well.

ossuary
03-25-2014, 08:34 AM
Can you give your opponent first strike to make them skip dealing damage all together, and if you remove first strike from yourself, do you effectively gain double strike for the turn?

Yes (sort of), and yes.

If none of the current troops in combat have swiftstrike, the system automatically skips that step and there's nothing you can do about it. However, if at least one troop has swiftstrike, the system stops after swiftstrike damage is assigned. If you then give a bunch of non-swiftstrike troops swiftstrike, they will skip dealing damage.

Conversely, if you have numerous troops with swiftstrike, and you take it away from them after they deal their swiftstrike damage, those same troops will ALSO deal regular damage. Technically, I would consider this to be a bug rather than a trick (the troop isn't testing to see whether or not it dealt damage that turn, it's just checking whether or not it's in combat and should deal damage during the current phase), but CZE would have to confirm intent.

Xenavire
03-25-2014, 08:47 AM
Yes (sort of), and yes.

If none of the current troops in combat have swiftstrike, the system automatically skips that step and there's nothing you can do about it. However, if at least one troop has swiftstrike, the system stops after swiftstrike damage is assigned. If you then give a bunch of non-swiftstrike troops swiftstrike, they will skip dealing damage.

Conversely, if you have numerous troops with swiftstrike, and you take it away from them after they deal their swiftstrike damage, those same troops will ALSO deal regular damage. Technically, I would consider this to be a bug rather than a trick (the troop isn't testing to see whether or not it dealt damage that turn, it's just checking whether or not it's in combat and should deal damage during the current phase), but CZE would have to confirm intent.

I think this is a bug. I mean swiftstrike should not stop a troop from dealing normal damage if they missed the swiftstrike phase, just like gaining swiftstrike after the swiftstrike phase shouldn't kill a troop before it deals its own damage. And no troop losing swiftstrike should deal it's damage again.

I think this is something that will get fixed eventually, but it is not intuitive or logical in any sense. I hardly think it is intended.

Yoss
03-25-2014, 09:30 AM
As a side note, I find this stop annoying most of the time because it changes the number of stops between main phase 1 and main phase 2, and increases the chance that I will click the pass bar too many times by accident. But this just might be a personal problem.

Ditto. It would be nice to have an auto-pass option for that step.

Lonenut
03-25-2014, 10:31 AM
And by removing it we'll see a benefit incredibly, incredibly rarely.

I don't really care either way on the removal of this priority step. It offers some cool interactions, but I agree they are pretty rare.
I just think that removing something because it rarely happens hurts the game more than it helps, since the benefit would be seen just as rarely as the detriment.

That's not true, though.

I think most players, like me, set almost all of the stops up to be on at all times. Because why not? If there's a chance I'll win/lose because I take the time to decide whether to take an action at a certain point, I want that availability.

If you're allowed to have a stop there, then, in the overwhelming majority of competitive games there will be a stop there and an extra 5 seconds will be added to the turn anytime someone is using a swiftstrike creature. This is an incredibly common occurrence.

Whereas if you remove the stop, only very, very rarely will a player have missed the chance to do something they could do only between damage phases.

So tax EVERYONE five seconds on countless turns, or allow a very rare play occurrence to exist.

Lonenut
03-25-2014, 10:35 AM
Although now that I'm looking at it, I'd overlooked the fact that reversion would allow you to remove swiftstrike damage from a creature before the normal combat phase.

So then the question is how important is that? Allowing the response time actually penalizes people for running swiftstrike against a reversion deck, because allowing the response time lets you save creatures.

But maybe you don't want to penalize swiftstrike that way.

stiii
03-25-2014, 11:14 AM
That's not true, though.

I think most players, like me, set almost all of the stops up to be on at all times. Because why not? If there's a chance I'll win/lose because I take the time to decide whether to take an action at a certain point, I want that availability.

If you're allowed to have a stop there, then, in the overwhelming majority of competitive games there will be a stop there and an extra 5 seconds will be added to the turn anytime someone is using a swiftstrike creature. This is an incredibly common occurrence.

Whereas if you remove the stop, only very, very rarely will a player have missed the chance to do something they could do only between damage phases.

So tax EVERYONE five seconds on countless turns, or allow a very rare play occurrence to exist.

Yeah I don't think this is true. On magic online (which has the same stop system) most people have a stop on their 1st/2nd main phases and their opps start of combat and end of turn. Nothing else, if you want to play an effect during end of combat then you add a stop.

You are in real danger of timing out if you have to spend a minute every turn just clicking through stops.

Shivdaddy
03-25-2014, 02:03 PM
If you want to get rid of this step you dont know what your talking about. Why do some people want to make the game easier at every step? Go play hearthstone if you want a game where you don't have to pay attention.

I want an extra step with damage on the stack like magic use to have! It is fun to outplay your opponent.

Yoss
03-25-2014, 05:36 PM
It is fun to outplay my opponent. It is unfun to waste play time on situations where no one has a useful play. I am all in favor of more stops to the extent that they enable interesting choices to make, and there are some that could (rarely) happen after the swiftstrike damage step. I believe we should protect that possibility. However, I want to be able to turn off stops that my deck does not need, even moreso if we can get the timers to be short enough to actually matter and put time pressure on the tactical decisions.

Patrigan
03-26-2014, 12:43 AM
Remove the step.

I'm already having difficulties convincing friends because of how slow hex can be. I'm not using my raptor deck when showing it because of the extra step, yet the raptor deck is the BEST example of the advantages of Hex...

Gwaer
03-26-2014, 01:36 AM
I think briar legion + briar legion creating card + plat garden is the best deck to show off the advantages of hex these days.

Patrigan
03-26-2014, 12:08 PM
haven't created that one yet. Will take a look at it later today :) thanks for the tip.

Disordia
03-26-2014, 12:41 PM
If you don't like it, turn it off. Simple as that.

Yoss
03-26-2014, 12:44 PM
If you don't like it, turn it off. Simple as that.

You can't turn it off right now, because the UI doesn't offer that as an option. That's the problem.

Freebird_Falcon
03-26-2014, 08:57 PM
Pretty sure the stop is there because there is a state based actions check after any damage. If it was just after normal combat, you could have swiftstrike technically killing creatures, which should first cause their ETG effects but instead you'd have another round of combat damage before creature death/ETG resolution. If you have an Axe Bot in play that died from a swiftstrike creature, you're going to want to assign that +2 to a creature in normal combat before it happens. If there is no priority, this would not happen until after combat. At least, that's how I would see it.

Maybe an option to auto-pass is needed, but I question how useful/desirable you would actually find it in application. I definitely wouldn't want the step automatically set to off, especially with untargeted abilities resolving without the chain. Don't want to be surprised by swfitstrike triggered combat boosting abilities without a chance to respond.

chi
03-27-2014, 01:40 AM
If state based actions weren't checked, creatures wouldn't die as a result of swiftstrike damage in the first place.

Freebird_Falcon
03-27-2014, 08:06 AM
If state based actions weren't checked, creatures wouldn't die as a result of swiftstrike damage in the first place.

Whoops, good point. Edited to reflect.

Zomnivore
03-27-2014, 02:48 PM
I don't understand its removal because swiftstrike gives you the ability to burn before the other troop attacks, giving you another tool in the belt.

If they wanted to add a would you like to skip this prompt I'd be fine.....but out right removal meh.

Svenn
03-27-2014, 06:00 PM
I don't understand its removal because swiftstrike gives you the ability to burn before the other troop attacks, giving you another tool in the belt.

If they wanted to add a would you like to skip this prompt I'd be fine.....but out right removal meh.
You could just cast the burn at the "Defenders Declared" priority phase with the exact same effect. Most things that you'd want to do like this can be done exactly the same at this step rather than during the swiftstrike priority.