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View Full Version : The Few. The Proud. The Raid Leaders.



RobHaven
04-02-2014, 06:48 AM
I was just looking through the Kickstarter. Are there really only going to be about 1300 players who have this perk? And how many of those are multi-accounts?

edit: Should that be "Are there really..." or "Is there really..."?

Scammanator
04-02-2014, 07:04 AM
Yeah, I was one of the few who got just the Raid Leader tier. Most of us are part of the Grand Kings, who won't necessarily be focused on raiding, although I expect many of them will be. It'll be nice to be in demand for raid runs.

I'm planning to get good enough at raiding that I can start being a guide and introduce new players to raids. Although the occasional triple-raid-leader run would be fun too.

Swervestar
04-02-2014, 07:26 AM
What!? You can stack raid leaders? This is ridiculous!

Kroan
04-02-2014, 07:36 AM
You can't stack raid leader no

hammer
04-02-2014, 08:09 AM
Pretty sure that you can stack raid leader starting hand size buff.

On a related matter Cory talked in the Neo interview about potions for PvE buffs, so perhaps a consumable raid-leader esq buff will be available and craft-able.

Yoss
04-02-2014, 08:55 AM
It'll be nice to be in demand for raid runs.

I will be actively AVOIDING raid leaders, personally. I do not want the cheat-mode enabled, at least, not for the first time through. If I'm at "farming" status on a given raid, then sure RL me up.

Scammanator
04-02-2014, 09:13 AM
I will be actively AVOIDING raid leaders, personally. I do not want the cheat-mode enabled, at least, not for the first time through. If I'm at "farming" status on a given raid, then sure RL me up.

Fair enough. I'm going to be holding myself back on dungeons, and won't be using the majority of my Kickstarter rewards on the first playthrough. So I can totally understand that impulse to do things "the right way" the first time around.

I'm expecting raids to be challenging enough that I personally won't have much trouble letting myself go all-out, but I'll give props to those like you who embrace the challenge for what it is.

I'm still expecting most players to prefer a raid leader on their side, though.

Shrennan
04-02-2014, 09:20 AM
I will be actively AVOIDING raid leaders, personally. I do not want the cheat-mode enabled, at least, not for the first time through. If I'm at "farming" status on a given raid, then sure RL me up.

I think Raid Leaders are able to turn off the buff. I thought I remember hearing about that right around the KS campaign.

Josua
04-02-2014, 11:02 AM
I think Raid Leaders are able to turn off the buff. I thought I remember hearing about that right around the KS campaign.

Interesting. Since I don't remember reading about this, do you know if the other tiers will be able to turn off their rewards/buffs as well? (Not sure if there would be any real benefit in some cases, but just in case there was some benefit to the loot table percentages for Dungeon Crawler or a lowered experience gain for Guild Leader for instance)

As far as the Raid Leader is concerned, I actually really hope that there are some raids that are so difficult that it's extremely challenging without a raid leader... and still difficult even with one. I know that some people won't like that, but I think it would be nice to make them a bit more necessary and facilitate the requirement for strategic group play.

At the same time, with the number being so limited, I'm a bit worried that it'll become a situation of "Looking for RL" in place of your standard "Looking for Healer," for way too long. I could see it having benefits and downsides, so I don't really know. I like the idea of people having their "roles" though for certain raids.

Pre-Post Edit: That could be a horrible idea since the numbers will be so limited... especially as time goes on.

Kroan
04-02-2014, 11:27 AM
Pretty sure that you can stack raid leader starting hand size buff.

Sorry, I misread the statement. I thought we were talking about multiple raid leaders buffs on the same account.


Here is the list of things that DONT stack, meaning your account will only have one.

- Sleeves

(you get one set of each you have qualified for, this is all an account would need)

- Mercenaries

(you get one of each you have qualified for, this is all an account would need)

- Credits in the game (your name in the credits)

- +1 card in opening hand (Raid Leader)

- Raid Leader exclusive PVE card

(this card is functionally different and will not be tradable)

- +100% Extra loot drop

- +10% PVE experience for all members of the Guild

(maximum increase for any guild is capped at 10%)

- Entry into special promotional Kickstarter tournaments. Due to the high number of donations, we will be breaking this up into smaller groups and offering the same prize multiple times, and you will be given the specific group to participate in. Consider this a bonus and reward for your amazing generosity!

From Update #11 (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts/484901?ref=email&show_token=e8132e8517fc35f4)

hammer
04-02-2014, 11:30 AM
They don't stack into one account ie if you merge two account with raid leader they don't stack BUT if you have three players each with raid leader, then the +1 card does stack for players in that raid. So if you assemble a raid with three raid leaders they would each start with 10 cards, discarding down to 7 at the end of their turn.

Aradon
04-02-2014, 12:51 PM
And be gaining 3 life each turn, and have 3 spare fog effects :P

Scammanator
04-02-2014, 02:12 PM
And be gaining 3 life each turn, and have 3 spare fog effects :P

Only the starting hand bonus is cumulative in a group with multiple raid leaders, each player only gets one copy of the Raid Leader's Blessing constant.

Although stacking the +1 card may be better than initially assumed, because they mentioned that one of the account bonuses unlockable by leveling up might be an increase in maximum hand size.

Aradon
04-02-2014, 04:13 PM
Oh. I definitely missed that, then. Oh well, I suppose.

Stok3d
04-02-2014, 09:11 PM
According to prior QA that I remember, Raid Leader buff can be stacked (ie: 3x RLs in a raid get +3 starting hand). However, the merge of KS accounts with the perk will not enable that to stack on a singular account (ie: merging 4x GKs will still have a +1 starting hand size on that account).

tautologico
04-02-2014, 09:51 PM
Interesting. Since I don't remember reading about this, do you know if the other tiers will be able to turn off their rewards/buffs as well? (Not sure if there would be any real benefit in some cases, but just in case there was some benefit to the loot table percentages for Dungeon Crawler or a lowered experience gain for Guild Leader for instance)

As far as the Raid Leader is concerned, I actually really hope that there are some raids that are so difficult that it's extremely challenging without a raid leader... and still difficult even with one. I know that some people won't like that, but I think it would be nice to make them a bit more necessary and facilitate the requirement for strategic group play.

At the same time, with the number being so limited, I'm a bit worried that it'll become a situation of "Looking for RL" in place of your standard "Looking for Healer," for way too long. I could see it having benefits and downsides, so I don't really know. I like the idea of people having their "roles" though for certain raids.

Pre-Post Edit: That could be a horrible idea since the numbers will be so limited... especially as time goes on.

As you note on your edit, the only way it makes sense is for CZE to design raids without taking raid leaders into account, given that the bonus they give should be impossible to get any other way (otherwise raid leaders won't mean much in the game). Given the small amount of people with the RL perk, considering some part of them may not want to do raids (Grand Kings who are not interested in PVE) and part of them will leave the game and so on, designing with RLs in mind would be a disaster. Which means that people with one or multiple RLs on the party will definitely be on "cheat mode" and it may make raids "easy" (especially with stacking perks).

AstaSyneri
04-03-2014, 05:15 AM
Ah - one of the hotly debated topics from the Kickstarter period. ;-)

The stacking has been well explained now (one bonus per account, three different accounts with the bonus will stack the hand size, if nothing else). I'd certainly be extremely disappointed if taking the "weakest" of the sub-GK tiers would not amount to a significant bonus in raiding. We have a guild formed for doing raids - that includes 50 or so Raid leaders after all.

It is good only for a very limited scope, and the opportunity cost is immense (compare to pro player, collector or dungeon crawler).

But first we have to see any PvE content, so discussing that right now would be moot.

Ebynfel
04-03-2014, 05:53 AM
Not to mention, if they do anything like Heroic style Raids with harder content, or perhaps achievement based rewards that effectively make a particular encounter harder, Raid Leaders and groups with them may get a head start on getting through those particular instances. I wouldn't be surprised if something like this pops up, and as we move along into the future the Raid Leader perk becomes one of the most sought after commodities in the game. Well run guilds with Raid leaders could define the "World First" Race by gaining very tangible benefits in very difficult encounters or achievements.

Also, I do wonder if there will be World First status displayed o nthe double backs of the cards that are used in them like the PVP tourney info will be displayed.

Yoss
04-03-2014, 10:00 AM
Raid leaders could define the "World First" Race by gaining very tangible benefits in very difficult encounters or achievements.

Don't even get me started on this horrible topic again. CZE had better not let Raid Leader dominate the competitive PvE, especially given that the PvE game is supposed to be Free To Play. We had a rather long and heated debate about this last year. Here's the best post from the thread:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25983&page=14&p=268681#post268681

Daer
04-03-2014, 10:12 AM
No way I'm reading that, but if the general gist is that World Firsts are terrible, then I agree.

RobHaven
04-03-2014, 10:16 AM
No way I'm reading that, but if the general gist is that World Firsts are terrible, then I agree.
There's a case to be made by both sides of that statement.

I know this much for sure, though: I'm not going to apologize if/when my RL bonus has an impact on something I might gain over someone else. I'm going to use it and I'm going to do so without regret or hesitation.

Yoss
04-03-2014, 10:19 AM
No way I'm reading that, but if the general gist is that World Firsts are terrible, then I agree.

Uhm, no, that's not the gist.

Yoss
04-03-2014, 10:27 AM
I know this much for sure, though: I'm not going to apologize if/when my RL bonus has an impact on something I might gain over someone else. I'm going to use it and I'm going to do so without regret or hesitation.

And if CZE allows it, then you will be fully justified. If RL harms competitive PvE, all the blame will be on CZE for the way they set it up. I still can't figure out why CZE made RL a direct mechanical "cheat" instead of some kind of time leverage thing like DC and GL are. RL as +10% loot in raids would have been great, but they can't really change it now, especially with refunds no longer available.

Gwaer
04-03-2014, 10:59 AM
Meldryn's post was not the best. It's some guy that posted once, made a bunch of huge unsupported claims that you latched onto because he was on your "team"

And please lets not get into this again, we can all just agree that I am right and you are wrong and move on. (replace pronouns as needed, just do it in your head)

"This idea of competitive pve is a joke" I think was the best post from that thread. Achievement hunting is not "competitive pve". To be any real meaningful form of "competitive PVE" there would need to be a firmer hand on PVE cards power levels, and some sort of mythological setting to create a ladder system. Not first to complete a dungeon. That's not competitive, just like first to level to 60-90 wasn't truly competitive... Some jerk got it (that jerk was me twice) and then no one talks about it ever again.

Yoss
04-03-2014, 02:21 PM
...made a bunch of huge unsupported claims...

The irony is overwhelming.

Gwaer
04-03-2014, 02:32 PM
The irony is overwhelming.

I am always fully willing to support my huge claims.

Yoss
04-03-2014, 03:08 PM
Start with the one I quoted then. Or rescind it and we can avoid going back to the old discussion.

Gwaer
04-03-2014, 03:23 PM
Already supported it from the original text. He made one post, never answered a single question about it, didn't support his position or stances in any way... because he made one post, then didn't support it through any of the responses made to it.

Yoss
04-03-2014, 03:31 PM
Already supported it from the original text. He made one post, never answered a single question about it, didn't support his position or stances in any way... because he made one post, then didn't support it through any of the responses made to it.

He did support within the article itself, thus my note that your "unsubstantiated" claim was ironic. I clicked through a couple pages and only saw two people quoting Meldryn, and they were both supportive. Perhaps you could cite some post numbers or actual text so people can know what you're talking about when you set forth to slander someone's work.

Gwaer
04-03-2014, 03:35 PM
...slander someone's work.

It's times like this that I find it more and more likely that you wrote the entire thing yourself. It's your habit of bringing old threads up, and forcing people to re-read through a circular argument that you have gone back and re-edited countless times to make it entirely incomprehensible, not mine. If he was so interested in his stance he would still be around to defend it, or at least defended it back then.

Xenavire
04-03-2014, 03:37 PM
Now now ladies, lets untwist those panties.

Seriously though, does a months old topic even come close to being relevant here? I am going to say that any new info we have is limited, but still more than enough to see the topic with new eyes. Or we could wait for more information (should only be a few months.)

Kami
04-03-2014, 06:48 PM
Keep it civil people.

Patrigan
04-03-2014, 10:35 PM
Tell me Gwaer, how would you make PvE competitive, WITHOUT touching the actual card balance.

Gwaer
04-03-2014, 10:39 PM
I detailed a couple of options in that very long thread, one of them was having PVE tournaments you could enter where the dungeon\raid\what have you was tuned to be particularly difficult for the current block to handle, perhaps to the point where you got points for certain events during the encounters rather than actually beating the dungeon at all, points for surviving X rounds, points for killing X creatures, dealing X damage, healing X health, etc.

There was also an idea for PVE tournaments where you basically entered a dungeon with no cards, no champ, nothing, got a basic set of cards, and had to complete challenges or events to unlock other set cards to allow you to progress through the areas to the end. So you never actually got access to your collection during the PVE-Tournament, and instead could only work with what you were given from making certain decisions, or completing certain challenges.

Here is a thread on just that exact topic, trying to distill ideas from that monster thread into a manageable size, it went pretty well.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26275

Patrigan
04-03-2014, 10:55 PM
I detailed a couple of options in that very long thread, one of them was having PVE tournaments you could enter where the dungeon\raid\what have you was tuned to be particularly difficult for the current block to handle, perhaps to the point where you got points for certain events during the encounters rather than actually beating the dungeon at all, points for surviving X rounds, points for killing X creatures, dealing X damage, healing X health, etc.

There was also an idea for PVE tournaments where you basically entered a dungeon with no cards, no champ, nothing, got a basic set of cards, and had to complete challenges or events to unlock other set cards to allow you to progress through the areas to the end. So you never actually got access to your collection during the PVE-Tournament, and instead could only work with what you were given from making certain decisions, or completing certain challenges.

If I understand it correctly, you would make a completely separate "PvE Tournament Environment". One that takes the major parts of the PvE environment and amplifies or restricts them. Then you add in tournament specific "achievements" and make the whole thing highest Points wins based on these achievements.

I really like that. It has a repeatable sense of competitivity. It allows for many variations even on the same subject. Example Gnoll dungeon where one time achievements center around number of killed Gnolls and other time points are based on most artifacts played. Obviously both with negative points for more turns and deaths. (Simplistic example)

I hope CZE adds something like that in the future.

HOWEVER!

I think that CZE should still focus first on the "World's First" idea. Not because it's better than your idea, because it isn't better. But because it's easier to implement. In the past I was a big fan of the wiki (see my sig), in the near beta future I will most likely be so again. It is precisely this wiki that will allow for the World First Competitive scene, without any interaction from CZE necessary, aside from FINALLY publicly endorsing and supporting the wiki (they STILL haven't done so). Everything else can be managed BY the community FOR the community.

In fact, the wiki can be used for basically any competitive scene, including the PvP one. Examples:
http://lol.gamepedia.com/Svenskeren
http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Gnimsh
http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Tournaments

I hope that when the time comes, you are all willing to support this.

But anyway, this is going off-topic. Perhaps someone is willing to start a thread on how we, as players, can support the competitive scene?

Gwaer
04-03-2014, 11:04 PM
See the link I added to my post about players adding to the competitive scene, I especially like where it goes around post 35, and post 61+... Really I think the entire thread is good, except for the bit pretty early on where Yoss and I are arguing. I'm surprised we haven't gotten married yet... We've been arguing longer than many relationships last.

As for world first achievements, I'm totally on board with that, I intend to go for world firsts, but I'm almost positive it will be taken by people like producers who get all cards and all equipment, which is fine, they deserve some amount of rewards from that kind of an expenditure. As a community we could track non producer - non raid leader wins, etc. But honestly, aside from having a gamerscore esque number that goes up from achievements I don't see much point. And any achievement that is a one off or extremely limited should probably offer some art enhancement for your keep, or a special deck sleeve, or something else for the E-peen rather than any sort of numerical addition to your gamerscore.

Patrigan
04-03-2014, 11:33 PM
See the link I added to my post about players adding to the competitive scene, I especially like where it goes around post 35, and post 61+... Really I think the entire thread is good, except for the bit pretty early on where Yoss and I are arguing. I'm surprised we haven't gotten married yet... We've been arguing longer than many relationships last.

As for world first achievements, I'm totally on board with that, I intend to go for world firsts, but I'm almost positive it will be taken by people like producers who get all cards and all equipment, which is fine, they deserve some amount of rewards from that kind of an expenditure. As a community we could track non producer - non raid leader wins, etc. But honestly, aside from having a gamerscore esque number that goes up from achievements I don't see much point. And any achievement that is a one off or extremely limited should probably offer some art enhancement for your keep, or a special deck sleeve, or something else for the E-peen rather than any sort of numerical addition to your gamerscore.

Nearly everything you can win should just be cosmetical. Examples are AA cards, Unique Sleeves (World Firsts could get a sleeve with the picture of the raidboss). I would feel really crappy if a one-time event (or limited time event) offered an exclusive card...

Gwaer
04-03-2014, 11:41 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of ladder ranking. If PVE has a ladder, and you move up it by doing content, and completing achievements, I do not think the especially rare events should add to that ladder ranking at all. Otherwise, I pretty much agree, everything should be cosmetic, or generic. No super rare cards from the one time PVE achievement.