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Cowbot
04-03-2014, 07:00 AM
Previously I had thought someone asked Cory about regions, and I thought the answer was that we could choose which region to be a part of.

Then I watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9TsHWtT2-w

In it, Cory says regions will be IP based.

As an ex-pat living in Taiwan, if we cannot choose our regions I will be completely let down. All of my friends who are into TCGs are in the USA and I want to be able to play with them, trade cards with them, and so forth.

Not to mention if I'm stuck with Chinese cards I'll basically be crippled as a player. I can't read the cards quickly enough in draft to choose wisely.

Basically, not allowing us to choose our region would be a disaster. Other online games with walled gardens allow players to choose a region: League of Legends, for example, has a dedicated Taiwanese server. I can't use my Taiwanese account on the NA server, but I can play on the NA server if I want to, with a different account.

TL;DR Please confirm we can choose which region our account will be associated with.

Scammanator
04-03-2014, 07:35 AM
I'd be very surprised if you weren't able to view cards in English (or the language of your choice) when drafting, although that feature might be somewhat delayed.

Also, you ought to be be able to play with your friends in other gardens, outside of tournaments. But I could be very wrong about that.

But yeah, the way it sounds, you probably won't be able to draft or trade with your friends. Which sucks.

Jacklau89
04-03-2014, 07:47 AM
But yeah, the way it sounds, you probably won't be able to draft or trade with your friends. Which sucks.

And I second that. What's the point of a online TCG if I can't even trade my cards with my friend in EU while I am forced to stuck at other walled garden? Its no better than any offline card game imo.

May I ask Cryptozoic why choosing an IP sorting system over a manual selection by player itself, like during first registration? Did I miss something important here?

Kroan
04-03-2014, 08:02 AM
For those of you who are corner cases, there are workarounds so you can join the garden of your choice.

Xenavire
04-03-2014, 08:15 AM
For those of you who are corner cases, there are workarounds so you can join the garden of your choice.

I do think official word on these workarounds would be nice. Are we to expect punishment for using them? Etc.

Scammanator
04-03-2014, 08:17 AM
And I second that. What's the point of a online TCG if I can't even trade my cards with my friend in EU while I am forced to stuck at other walled garden? Its no better than any offline card game imo.

May I ask Cryptozoic why choosing an IP sorting system over a manual selection by player itself, like during first registration? Did I miss something important here?

Europe, North America, and Australia are all in one garden. There are places, like China, that have financial laws and economies that are different enough that the walls are necessary to protect the game economy.

Jacklau89
04-03-2014, 08:19 AM
For those of you who are corner cases, there are workarounds so you can join the garden of your choice.

All I would like to say is using free version of this tool is not secure at all since your username, password and credit card information passes through someone else's doorway and can be logged easily, and neither could anyone guarantee a paid service is perfectly safe.

Besides, not everyone enjoy the idea of paying an extra $100 USD a year to use that service.

ossuary
04-03-2014, 08:21 AM
I do think official word on these workarounds would be nice. Are we to expect punishment for using them? Etc.

They're impossible to trace. That's the whole point. So no.

Xenavire
04-03-2014, 08:31 AM
Oss, suspicious behaviour etc can lead to complications.

Not saying that CZE would really care, but it would be nice to know how they are approaching it.

Jacklau89
04-03-2014, 08:36 AM
Europe, North America, and Australia are all in one garden. There are places, like China, that have financial laws and economies that are different enough that the walls are necessary to protect the game economy.

Yes I suspect the discrepancy in law among countries might be the reason for an IP system, though likely not for protecting the game economy as manual selection of walled garden also prevents cross-region trading. I suppose its for game distribution in different countries.

Nevertheless would like an official explanation on how this IP system works before beta so that overseas players can get prepared. I am sure there will be a large shout out if the walled garden system is enforced after we launched monetized beta:p

Kroan
04-03-2014, 09:11 AM
All I would like to say is using free version of this tool is not secure at all since your username, password and credit card information passes through someone else's doorway and can be logged easily, and neither could anyone guarantee a paid service is perfectly safe.

Besides, not everyone enjoy the idea of paying an extra $100 USD a year to use that service.
Sure, but if we're completely honest, you "chose" yourself to work abroad (or whatever your reason is to want to trade in another garden). These are some of the things that come with that. There are also reliable and secure options, which yes, cost money, but again are not required if you just want to enjoy the game.

Ravallian
04-03-2014, 10:09 AM
I hope it's just a one off when creating the account.

Kami
04-03-2014, 10:25 AM
This affects more than just expats. Let's say I'm on a trip to visit my family overseas, am I then not allowed to play on my 'home' server?

ossuary
04-03-2014, 10:43 AM
The fact of the matter is we need more information than the 60 seconds of the interview provided. So until we get the full details, there's not much point going around in circles. We'll find out the information we need to know soon enough - and can then feel free to blow the hell up over whatever it is. ;)

Kroan
04-03-2014, 11:44 AM
This affects more than just expats. Let's say I'm on a trip to visit my family overseas, am I then not allowed to play on my 'home' server?

I'd think the check is done when you create an account. But I could be wrong. Also please realize this affects not your ability to play in tournaments, but rather who you can trade with and what the price of certain items is.

the_artic_one
04-03-2014, 11:58 AM
If it's not locked on creation people are going to mess up the economy by buying packs/cards in a region with a poor economy and selling them on the NA/EU AH. I'm quite sure it will be locked on account creation.

Kami
04-03-2014, 12:15 PM
I'd think the check is done when you create an account. But I could be wrong. Also please realize this affects not your ability to play in tournaments, but rather who you can trade with and what the price of certain items is.

That's not entirely true.

http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/GlobalTournamentServer.jpg

As you can see, you'd only have access to Global Tournament Servers. While the impact is not massive, it still exists.

Additionally, we don't know the full limitations of how the servers will handle regional differences yet.

Edit: That would make an awesome achievement though. "Complete a tournament on each regional tournament server."

ossuary
04-03-2014, 12:19 PM
That's also potentially old information, though. Some of the stuff Cory was saying in the interview made it sound like it was just trading and buying/selling that would be limited by region - suggesting (not confirming) that you could guild or casual play with anyone. We need to wait to get more details, basically. We just don't know for now.

Kroan
04-03-2014, 12:50 PM
That's not entirely true. It has changed since then. Cory said in the interview they want to let people play as much as possible together through the global tournament server to ensure a tournament is firing on any point of the day that you log in rather than only at peek times of your garden.

meetthefuture
04-04-2014, 01:40 AM
Just as a quick note, I know at least 10 active and quite good russian players, and no one of them is going to play on rusian server ever :)

Voormas
04-04-2014, 02:37 AM
A guild-mate of mine who pledged for Pro-Tier is worried that this effectively makes their reward tier worth less than the same tier chosen and paid for by everyone else - I'm sure it can be worked around no matter what but getting more concrete information on how it is going to be handled would be nice

Cowbot
04-04-2014, 05:32 AM
A guild-mate of mine who pledged for Pro-Tier is worried that this effectively makes their reward tier worth less than the same tier chosen and paid for by everyone else - I'm sure it can be worked around no matter what but getting more concrete information on how it is going to be handled would be nice

I have this exact same worry. I paid US bucks for my pro tier. I don't like the idea that because my region is filled with developing countries my investment is worth less.

(I understand and agree with giving them different prices for cards, however, should they require it.)

Kroan
04-04-2014, 07:17 AM
You didn't buy a Pro Tier. You pledged an amount of money to make Hex a reality and in return get rewards as a token of gratitude. This decision doesn't make a pledge more or less worth at all. Your $250 (or more/less) still were used to make this game.

BenRGamer
04-04-2014, 07:53 AM
You didn't buy a Pro Tier. You pledged an amount of money to make Hex a reality and in return get rewards as a token of gratitude. This decision doesn't make a pledge more or less worth at all. Your $250 (or more/less) still were used to make this game.

Doesn't matter. They were promised X dollars worth of packs for their pledge, and if the packs cost less, they're not getting X dollars worth of packs just because they don't live in the US.

They value their money, too, and I'm sure you wouldn't like it if suddenly everything you bought was worth less after you bought it.

ossuary
04-04-2014, 07:58 AM
No, they were NOT promised X dollars worth of packs. They were promised X packs, which is exactly what they will get.

WaycoolPH
04-04-2014, 08:03 AM
This game went from:

ZERO mention of segregation of countries in the Kickstarter campaign

to

each of us getting the "FREEDOM" to choose which regional server we want to play (NOTE: I was already fine with this)

to

everyone getting locked to our home server based on our IP

See the problem there?

=====

How much longer do we have to wait for an explanation for this? We should all just wait when they feel like addressing it already? Because... it's pointless anyway because we cannot ask for a refund anymore (coincidentally the Cory Jones interview where he said that region locking will be IP based was made on April 1 which is also the day that we cannot ask for refunds anymore)? Or maybe since CZE is new to this, they are just making things up as they go along?

=====

Sure majority of the people/players here are from NA/EU and therefore have no problems shutting off other countries and we're probably be in the minority regarding this issue but this game is reeeaaally starting to feel like being way biased towards NA/EU/OZ regions. Why can't we play with friends from other regions? One of the joys of our time right now is being able to interact/communicate/play with other people no matter where we are. Why go against this?

=====

They should stop calling it a "Walled Garden". Just call it a "Wall". A wall is still a wall even if you add a garden after it and right now I sure can't smell the roses from this garden.

BenRGamer
04-04-2014, 08:04 AM
How many times did they say you'd get so many dollars worth of stuff for backing in press materials?

I know they mentioned multiple times, though probably in relation to King rather than pro player, just how many dollars worth of stuff you'd be getting.

Revoluketion
04-04-2014, 08:08 AM
Were you there for the interview? I agree the Walled Garden sucks..but it is because they have to charge less in certain countries because of how their currency works. They are doing this to protect the investments of players with a more stable economy. If they didn't no one would buy packs in EU or US because why pay 2 dollars for a pack when the Chinese are selling cards for a fraction of that! Or at least that is how I understand it, it has nothing to do with server stability or segregation.

Kroan
04-04-2014, 08:11 AM
They value their money, too, and I'm sure you wouldn't like it if suddenly everything you bought was worth less after you bought it. But that's exactly what is true for most things you buy in your life.

Also what ossuary says is true as well.

Kroan
04-04-2014, 08:14 AM
This could have gone into
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=34326

Roy_G
04-04-2014, 08:31 AM
Doesn't matter. They were promised X dollars worth of packs for their pledge, and if the packs cost less, they're not getting X dollars worth of packs just because they don't live in the US.

They value their money, too, and I'm sure you wouldn't like it if suddenly everything you bought was worth less after you bought it.

It's a good point.The kickstarter does mentions in the tier descriptions the value of the packs.Getting slotted into a different
garden would the value it.It was also mentioned in the slacker backer page.People should be given a choice about their garden.

WaycoolPH
04-04-2014, 08:32 AM
Well I did pay in USD$ for the Kickstarter campaign which means moving forward I already know I'm paying in USD in the future. Since the start, it has been known that a pack is $2. So if I'm from China (I'm not), and China sells equivalent to only $1.5 a pack that means my 150 packs from the Kickstarter is worth only $225 and not the full $300 in the NA server? That's a 25% haircut.


Were you there for the interview? I agree the Walled Garden sucks..but it is because they have to charge less in certain countries because of how their currency works. They are doing this to protect the investments of players with a more stable economy. If they didn't no one would buy packs in EU or US because why pay 2 dollars for a pack when the Chinese are selling cards for a fraction of that! Or at least that is how I understand it, it has nothing to do with server stability or segregation.

Xenavire
04-04-2014, 08:33 AM
There are also a bunch of legal issues - some to do with gambling, some with what images can be shown, etc etc. Like in china, you cannot show exposed bone, so skeletons and zombies all need new art etc. Not all of it is relevant to the subject of walled gardens, but altogether it adds up to a problem that they think walled gardens will fix.

Gwaer
04-04-2014, 08:35 AM
No, sorry... I agree with everyone saying that KS backers shouldn't be stuffed into shards that have less valuable packs. A KS pledge is a purchase, not a donation, the KS terms spell that out pretty clearly. And they're basically forcing people to take a less valuable version of their purchase. The value of tiers did come up in their pitch a lot. Secondary market value came up as well. Everyone that spent X USD, should be able to get the same amount of plat on the AH from their packs and perks. And if you're in a garden that has packs at .40USD that's not going to happen.

Solutions could be simply allowing any account that attaches KS rewards to choose its region, letting the people decide if they mind if their packs are devalued, or just refunding into plat the difference of their KS purchase. Ie if packs are only $1 USD in their region refund them half of their KS pledge in plat to their account. If packs are 50c refund them 75% etc. their payment amount should be in proportion to the relative value of their forced economy.

BenRGamer
04-04-2014, 08:37 AM
There are also a bunch of legal issues - some to do with gambling, some with what images can be shown, etc etc. Like in china, you cannot show exposed bone, so skeletons and zombies all need new art etc. Not all of it is relevant to the subject of walled gardens, but altogether it adds up to a problem that they think walled gardens will fix.

...how do you show skeletons without showing the skeletons?

Gwaer
04-04-2014, 08:40 AM
The skeletons become very thin zombies, or some other creature entirely. It's a pretty big problem for lots of games actually.

Xenavire
04-04-2014, 08:52 AM
The skeletons become very thin zombies, or some other creature entirely. It's a pretty big problem for lots of games actually.

I bet it is, skeletons are a staple for any number of fantasy games, and especially MMO's (and China is big on MMO's.) I wonder how things like the elder Scrolls online will be handled - they are just releasing I think, does China get delays? Etc.

Btw, I have always been curious and never had a truly satisfying answer - I am sure it is law, but why? Is it backed up by religion or something? Or is it simply a deeply ingrained cultural taboo? I should probably go google it...

Jacklau89
04-04-2014, 08:56 AM
...They are doing this to protect the investments of players with a more stable economy. If they didn't no one would buy packs in EU or US because why pay 2 dollars for a pack when the Chinese are selling cards for a fraction of that!

I am sure a one-off registration allowing you to select a server (garden) of your choice will solve this issue too. It cannot be the reason why an IP system is used instead.

ossuary
04-04-2014, 08:56 AM
Why do people insist on making trollish and antagonistic thread titles for things that have already been answered repeatedly?

WaycoolPH
04-04-2014, 09:16 AM
Maybe because it has never really been answered or the answers keep changing as we go along? You're not obligated to reply anyway.


Why do people insist on making trollish and antagonistic thread titles for things that have already been answered repeatedly?

chili
04-04-2014, 09:19 AM
I am not interested in playing in a Latin American server due to community quality and overall availability of games/cars, I demand that there be an option to choose your garden. All Latin American servers are always toxic and filled with trolls and brazillians.

ossuary
04-04-2014, 10:02 AM
You can demand whatever you want, it doesn't mean anyone will listen or care.

Xenavire
04-04-2014, 10:06 AM
You can demand whatever you want, it doesn't mean anyone will listen or care.

Well, even if it is a demand, it is fairly reasonable. I would hate to be stuck in a toxic garden based purely on my location, especially if I could afford to play elsewhere.

Yuhan
04-04-2014, 12:12 PM
Not everybody follows hex closely. This is news for me.

mudkip
04-04-2014, 12:19 PM
...how do you show skeletons without showing the skeletons?

In WoW, instead of skeletons for old corpses they put in tombstones.

BenRGamer
04-04-2014, 04:06 PM
You can demand whatever you want, it doesn't mean anyone will listen or care.

Grade A Hex Community, right here, folks.

b1uepenguin
04-04-2014, 04:14 PM
Aye...

Definitely concerned about the IP locking. Can we confirm that Aus/Nz will be part of Europe/North America?

My other concern is where Guam and the CNM will be placed (and Japan for that matter).

I know my geographical position and movement for work puts me in a unique place, but it's still worrisome to think that I could end up in server different from the one I identify with and be stuck in it when I move around the Pacific.

Gwaer
04-04-2014, 04:15 PM
It's just ossuary, he's mostly harmless. He goes through these phases once a month or so.

Absolutely wrong, and uncalled for here I agree. This is a pretty serious issue to me that I think deserves to be talked about from all sides. Even though it doesn't directly affect me.

ossuary
04-04-2014, 04:19 PM
It's just ossuary, he's mostly harmless.

Thank god Prefect managed to get that new version submitted to the editor.

Gwaer
04-04-2014, 04:20 PM
Thank god Prefect managed to get that new version submitted to the editor.
Yet another quote stok3d won't understand. I don't get how he survived on the internet.

Slaeer
04-04-2014, 04:50 PM
Btw, I have always been curious and never had a truly satisfying answer - I am sure it is law, but why? Is it backed up by religion or something? Or is it simply a deeply ingrained cultural taboo? I should probably go google it...

Off Topic but:
It's the communist (socialist) way to control aspects of their society like telling you what internet sites you can or cannot go to (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_ China). One time, all Google websites were banned for everyone in mainland China for a day because Google was trying to skirt the strict regulations the government wanted for content searches. So things like no skulls or skeletons in games falls under the socialist control and games that want to launch in China usually are delayed by months or even years (WoW's Wrath of the Lich King expansion came out in China 2 years after the US release). It's just the way their government is... and unfortunately the way our government is leaning towards..

On Topic:
I think they should allow everyone to choose what Servers they want to play on, but will have the walls as far as economy goes. So if you're in China and decide to play on the US servers, then you'll have to pay the US pricing and only trade with US players. However as far as games go, they might have Global severs for just 1v1 pvp games instead of only tournaments. or global PVE servers if you want an international raiding guild. Again, even if you had people from different regions in your guild, you still would not be able to trade with them. This way you keep the economies stable while allowing cross country play.

Keep in mind Cory did say they are still debating this issue so it will probably change.

Xenavire
04-04-2014, 05:44 PM
Yet another quote stok3d won't understand. I don't get how he survived on the internet.

Was that quote in the movie though? He might have seen that, he is only lacking in the books department.

BTW, how many people got the reference in the Sapphire Aura? I cracked up the first time I saw it.

QuantumZeruul
04-04-2014, 05:45 PM
As a side note, these days unless you are behind some fairly stringent firewalls (and mabe even then), region locking based off IP can be fairly easily bypassed by using a decent VPN provider with multiple exit points, and for something like Hex I would not think the performance/latency hit would be that bad either.

Dropbear
04-04-2014, 08:46 PM
You choose at the beginning and then you are not allowed to change servers full stop. Done.

In reality, the only real walled service should be China, since they've said that Russia and Phillipines will not be charged differently from us, which removes the whole point of walled gardens. Just charge them USD! :P

Voormas
04-04-2014, 09:23 PM
Cryptozoic are all about "fans first" so I have no doubt they will handle this in a classy way, but there is always the obsessive pessimist in my head that fears the worst and I see many of you all seem to share my affliction :P

Zomnivore
04-04-2014, 09:56 PM
The explanation I heard was that to be viable in other markets they would have to lower the price of packs on a case by case basis so that the market can bear the price optimally, that means making packs very cheap in poorer markets.

Its a protection measure that prevents our packs from being devalued and allows hex to sell their game in other poorer sections of the world.

Ravallian
04-04-2014, 09:59 PM
IMO:

- Legally CZE HAVE to walled off certain countries and region due to legal and possible financial (cost of cards) reasons - Fact.
- How CZE enforce this is however in question, IP checking in my opinion is one of the worst way of doing it.
- Would CZE consider other methods such as payment checking where the payment method e.g. Paypal or credit card matched the country/region that the account will be register to, etc.

Gwaer
04-04-2014, 10:23 PM
Payment checking is much more reliable, and how itunes does it. It's not too difficult to end up with a payment method and address in a foreign country, especially the usa, but it is orders of magnitude more difficult for most than simply turning on a VPN.

Kroan
04-05-2014, 12:31 AM
Payment checking is much more reliable, and how itunes does it. It's not too difficult to end up with a payment method and address in a foreign country, especially the usa, but it is orders of magnitude more difficult for most than simply turning on a VPN.
Unfortunately iTunes (at least over here in the Netherlands) required either a creditcard or buying a "gift card" in the store. I don't think we'll see the second option soon for Hex, so that leaves only a creditcard which a lot of people don't have.

Jacklau89
04-05-2014, 12:38 AM
The explanation I heard was that to be viable in other markets they would have to lower the price of packs on a case by case basis so that the market can bear the price optimally, that means making packs very cheap in poorer markets.

Its a protection measure that prevents our packs from being devalued and allows hex to sell their game in other poorer sections of the world.

copy and paste from the previous page:)


I am sure a one-off registration allowing you to select a server (garden) of your choice will solve this issue too. It cannot be the reason why an IP system is used instead.

Gwaer
04-05-2014, 01:03 AM
That is the biggest downside, certainly. Especially since most of the rest of the world doesn't have the credit card fascination that we have here in the states. For European countries they could take cellphone payments, you guys love your cell phones right? Potentially a number of disposable preloaded credit cards exist you can pick up in stores, they can likely verify the location on those. But I can also just mail one to you from here and you're now in the USA shard.


Honestly the the whole idea of forcibly sorting and segregating people is very hard to manage. That's why most games let you choose the region you want to play in. If people want to play on different shards they should probably be able to. As long as no account transfers or trading of any kind can happen between them, I don't really see the harm. CZE won't be on the hook for Chinese people lying about their location. CZE just needs a policy about not doing that, and some enforcement if a government yells at them about it.

Gulbech
04-05-2014, 01:53 AM
I think one of the reasons cze makes walled gardens, is that not all us and eu players decides to join a region like asia and then pay half cost for everything. Think about it, if it became the norm to play in asia then all other regions would suffer, special if all can play in the same events, drafts and so on..

Ravallian
04-05-2014, 02:03 AM
I think one of the reasons cze makes walled gardens, is that not all us and eu players decides to join a region like asia and then pay half cost for everything. Think about it, if it became the norm to play in asia then all other regions would suffer, special if all can play in the same events, drafts and so on..

Yes, I think Corey mention this in his latest interview already about not allowing different price cards/garden to be trade together, etc. Another reason will probably be the art limitation, certain countries don't like blood to be shown, some will say certain cards are just to damm sexy, so legally CZE need to cover all their basis with their plan to release worldwide.

Cowbot
04-05-2014, 07:01 AM
I think one of the reasons cze makes walled gardens, is that not all us and eu players decides to join a region like asia and then pay half cost for everything. Think about it, if it became the norm to play in asia then all other regions would suffer, special if all can play in the same events, drafts and so on..

There are plenty of ways to deal with that. Only allowing local payment methods is one (this would allow ex-pats such as myself to play overseas no problem, as we usually have a US bank account and therefore can use Paypal), and another would be standardizing the client in another language. Certainly some people would make Chinese accounts for the discount, but if it meant reading all the cards in Chinese then it certainly would never become the "norm."

fido_one
04-05-2014, 07:26 AM
There are plenty of ways to deal with that. Only allowing local payment methods is one (this would allow ex-pats such as myself to play overseas no problem, as we usually have a US bank account and therefore can use Paypal), and another would be standardizing the client in another language. Certainly some people would make Chinese accounts for the discount, but if it meant reading all the cards in Chinese then it certainly would never become the "norm."

Good ideas but each would present a new slew of issues - being an ex-ex-pat myself, I might want to stay in a garden like China but want/need to keep English translations. Local payment methods as a barrier to crossing ecosystems only works for very certain situations, I know it wouldn't have worked for me, as to why I did still have a US bank account, there was zero dollars in it while I was working out of the country, etc. Transferring money to that account, for various reasons, was very difficult.

I don't think there is a solution here that will make everyone happy - and I think the 'choose your own garden' idea presents subtle issues so far down the line that I fear all the things I can't think of more than the things mentioned on this thread. I trust CZE will put a lot of thought into the ultimate solution, and it'll be a solution that is best for the long-term life of the game.

maniza
04-05-2014, 07:56 AM
im from latin america and i have to say i dont understand the idea... one of the reasons i joined hex is the idea of a global comunity of gamers cards and ah for trading cards. they say they will sell cheaper cards here... but i dont get to trade them with people form other regions!

i find that idea a regresion from phisical tcgs. where you have the cards you can play and trade whit anyone in the world. it also means my hex rewards are worth half of what the us donors are worth, and that does not seem fair. but i can live with that.

what im most worried about is the amount of ppl playing the game in my region. and how that afects me as a player ,as a collector, for raiding and overall pve experience. and what happens to me if the game is not popular over here and they have to close the servers?

Xenavire
04-05-2014, 08:39 AM
Heres an idea... What if they forced a pack opened in a certain language to remain that language when traded? Opponents would still see the correct text for thier client, so it wouldn't be abusable.

What this would mean? You could sell cheaper packs in other languages. People would value the cards they can read over those they can't, which would help preserve the value by region.

Plenty of problems with this, but it would perfectly emulate a physical TCG, allowing the removal of walled gardens.

This is not an idea I would endorse, but it is a possible solution.

Svenn
04-05-2014, 03:17 PM
Heres an idea... What if they forced a pack opened in a certain language to remain that language when traded? Opponents would still see the correct text for thier client, so it wouldn't be abusable.

What this would mean? You could sell cheaper packs in other languages. People would value the cards they can read over those they can't, which would help preserve the value by region.

Plenty of problems with this, but it would perfectly emulate a physical TCG, allowing the removal of walled gardens.

This is not an idea I would endorse, but it is a possible solution.
The value is only a part of it. That doesn't fix things like differences in laws between regions, which I have a feeling is more of an issue than price points.

Xenavire
04-05-2014, 03:23 PM
The value is only a part of it. That doesn't fix things like differences in laws between regions, which I have a feeling is more of an issue than price points.

I am not disagreeing, but it would squash the value issues, more or less.

chili
04-05-2014, 06:21 PM
I think they should give us a choice, if you choose US and US has higher prices, you deal with it because:

A) You have above average income in your country and can afford it

B) You value the american community higher than your local community and are willing to pay a premium for it

ossuary
04-05-2014, 07:36 PM
Obviously it would be ideal if everyone had the option, but it's possible there may be logistical or contractual factors in play that we're not aware of as well. Some of these regions wouldn't have had localization and server support at all if not for the publishing deals CZE made, and those deals may have entailed region locking to make it worth those companies' time to provide support.

At the end of the day, all we can do is wait for more details to become available, and try to open a dialogue with CZE about it once we understand how it will all work if that way isn't satisfactory. It doesn't do much good to doom and gloom it or make wild accusations (as some are doing) in the meantime - we simply don't have enough info yet.

Cowbot
04-05-2014, 08:36 PM
we simply don't have enough info yet.

So CZE, can we get some details on this? The responses here have been pretty overwhelmingly in favor of choice.

djlowballer
04-06-2014, 02:10 AM
I would buy the IP restriction if CZE had let me pledge local currency. Instead I paid in USD which was around 25% more so I expect to play on a US server. The walled gardens thing is only because CZE prefers to outsource their production operations rather than do it themselves.

ossuary
04-06-2014, 07:53 AM
They outsourced it because it would have taken too long and cost too much to do it themselves from scratch. This has been hashed over dozens of times already.

Svenn
04-06-2014, 11:22 AM
The walled gardens thing is only because CZE prefers to outsource their production operations rather than do it themselves.

Even if they had done it themselves they would have needed walled gardens because of varying laws and pricing differences. Having someone else host the servers doesn't change that.

chili
04-06-2014, 12:14 PM
The fact is nothing of the sort was mentioned in the kickstarter and it was heavily implied this would be a single server

Kroan
04-06-2014, 12:24 PM
The fact is nothing of the sort was mentioned in the kickstarter and it was heavily implied this would be a single server
I'm not sure, but heavily implied is taking it a bit far. Please link to where it's heavily implied that there would be one single server. Moreover, the walled garden has been known for quite a while and there was more than enough time to ask for a refund.

Now if you say that they hinted at a choice when selecting which garden to join, then yes, I agree with that. However it's fairly easy to use a proxy to get the IP of your choice, so if you really don't want to play on a server assigned to your ip-range, then you have the option of doing so I'd assume.

Tinuvas
04-06-2014, 10:53 PM
So let me see if I understand some of the thoughts floating around here:

CZE has come out and stated that one of the big reasons for walled gardens is the legal requirements of various countries. We still don't know exactly who will be walled off from who. For those who are in the legally restricted zones you are trying to suggest that CZE change the rules to try to break the laws of these countries?!? Where is that smart for them? They may be small, but one government official with a chip on his shoulder and bye bye Hex in that country. Methinks that this is not a good idea.

If you end up lumped in with China and you are in a 'free' country, that could be a legitimate concern. If you are in an area that has reduced prices for the local economy though, I am still wondering about the complaining. You get 'less' on the front side (not really, but I can see it from a particular point of view), but you can play a whole lot more than I will be able to for the duration of the game. And so there are complaints. Still working that out in my head.

Don't get me wrong, the need for walled gardens at all stinks. One big economy would be awesome. I think, though, that we can do better with our thoughts than what I'm seeing. Am I missing something here?

Cowbot
04-07-2014, 12:46 AM
So let me see if I understand some of the thoughts floating around here:

For those who are in the legally restricted zones you are trying to suggest that CZE change the rules to try to break the laws of these countries?!?

If you end up lumped in with China and you are in a 'free' country, that could be a legitimate concern. If you are in an area that has reduced prices for the local economy though, I am still wondering about the complaining. You get 'less' on the front side (not really, but I can see it from a particular point of view), but you can play a whole lot more than I will be able to for the duration of the game. And so there are complaints. Still working that out in my head.


For Taiwan, anyway, it has been proven that companies in similar legal situations to CZE can, and have, allowed people with Taiwanese IP addresses to play on NA servers. (See: Riot games.) As this option is available, why use IP restrictions instead of simply associating an account with a region?

As for the "play a lot more" argument, my response is twofold: first, you do not know what times of day I play this game. In actuality, I usually play in the early morning. Very few people in Taiwan or China play during this time. When it is my morning, it is the USA's early evening, which is prime-time for Hex. Therefore, it would actually be more difficult for me to find a game on the Taiwanese server. I have found this to be exactly the case on League of Legends. My wait times are significantly longer in my morning on the Taiwanese server than on the NA server.

Second, if I did not have a pro tier account your claim on getting a better deal on cards would be true, but only if the cards are available in English (they would probably not be.) Regardless, I DO have a pro tier, so if cards in Taiwan are cheaper I am demonstrably receiving less value for my purchase (yes, it was a purchase.) I get 44 new cards a week (3 boosters) for no additional cost if I play a draft. How much those cards are worth depends heavily on how much booster packs cost for other people. The more boosters cost for others, the more value I get per free booster pack.

I hope that helps explain what's going on.

Edit: I should note that if CZE comes out and says, "Because of X reason we can't do like Riot Games did and we must use IP" that would be a legitimate thing for them to do and I couldn't really argue, though I'd be disappointed. However, they have not said they must do it by ip restriction, only that they must have some form of region restriction. There are plenty of ways for them to implement that beyond simple ip identification.

Kroan
04-07-2014, 12:58 AM
People really need to get that the "I can't play during my time" is not a valid argument anymore. They already said that you will play as much as possible through the global tournament server. So the only thing walled is the economy

Also it was not a purchase. Saying so won't make it so. It's a reward for you backing a project. If CZE decides to make boosters cheaper ($1) next week, they are free to do so. They are not bound to keep the value of your pro tier exactly the same for all eternity. However, I can understand that this feels like "cheapening" your tier, in reality you still get exactly what you wanted; a free draft a week.

ossuary
04-07-2014, 01:26 AM
People really need to get that the "I can't play during my time" is not a valid argument anymore. They already said that you will play as much as possible through the global tournament server. So the only thing walled is the economy

Also it was not a purchase. Saying so won't make it so. It's a reward for you backing a project. If CZE decides to make boosters cheaper ($1) next week, they are free to do so. They are not bound to keep the value of your pro tier exactly the same for all eternity. However, I can understand that this feels like "cheapening" your tier, in reality you still get exactly what you wanted; a free draft a week.

Make this post bold, stick it at the top of the thread, and lock the damn thing. This right here is everything anyone needs to know. 100% perfect, Kroan.

Cowbot
04-07-2014, 01:37 AM
Also it was not a purchase. Saying so won't make it so. It's a reward for you backing a project.

From here: https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics?ref=faq_nav#Acco

"Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) This information can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn't fulfill their promises. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill."

I give them my money and they are legally obligated to produce the product. This is no different from hiring someone to clean your house, to make you a table, or any other purchase. If someone has not made a table yet but I place an order for the table to be produced, would you say I didn't purchase the table?

A product does not have to be completed before you buy it.

djlowballer
04-07-2014, 01:46 AM
Even if they had done it themselves they would have needed walled gardens because of varying laws and pricing differences. Having someone else host the servers doesn't change that.

The varying laws thing is just PR speak. CZE is an American company and only falls under American law. They have no legal reason to comply with a PRC demand much less any country except America. CZE could just run a single US server cluster and accept payment from anywhere. Steam, Google Play, App Store, all use regional pricing while maintaining a single account. Plenty of online games are operated with different regional models under a global company. By licensing it out they can suck money up and let the actual effort of running the business fall to the individual operators. It has nothing to do with our interests as players.

meetthefuture
04-07-2014, 02:15 AM
People really need to get that the "I can't play during my time" is not a valid argument anymore. They already said that you will play as much as possible through the global tournament server. So the only thing walled is the economy

The key here is "tournament server"
I won't be able to casually play (and playtest for tournaments, which is much more important) with EU/NA people, and the social part of the game will be completely lost for me (I've had enough of those russian-only game servers)

Kroan
04-07-2014, 02:27 AM
From here: https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics?ref=faq_nav#Acco

"Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) This information can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn't fulfill their promises. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill."

I give them my money and they are legally obligated to produce the product. This is no different from hiring someone to clean your house, to make you a table, or any other purchase. If someone has not made a table yet but I place an order for the table to be produced, would you say I didn't purchase the table?

A product does not have to be completed before you buy it.

I'm not sure if you read the quote yourself, but it clearly says " reward of their project". It's not a product. It's a reward. Has CZE failed in any way shape or form to deliver this reward? No. (Don't come and say that they delivered to late. It's an estimate. Moreover you could've had a refund if you didn't like the delay.).

Please note that that is a whole different discussion all together. The person I was responding too was clearly talking about tournaments.


I won't be able to casually play (and playtest for tournaments, which is much more important) with EU/NA people, and the social part of the game will be completely lost for me (I've had enough of those russian-only game servers) That is a fair question. But we don't know the answer right now. Maybe you will be able to play casually against anyone on any server? Would be nice to get that info, indeed.


The varying laws thing is just PR speak. CZE is an American company and only falls under American law. They have no legal reason to comply with a PRC demand much less any country except America. CZE could just run a single US server cluster and accept payment from anywhere. Steam, Google Play, App Store, all use regional pricing while maintaining a single account. Plenty of online games are operated with different regional models under a global company. By licensing it out they can suck money up and let the actual effort of running the business fall to the individual operators. It has nothing to do with our interests as players. You're just wrong. Apple for example commits to laws in each country and requests the developers of apps to do the same.

meetthefuture
04-07-2014, 03:04 AM
Maybe you will be able to play casually against anyone on any server?
That would solve all the problems.. but very unlikely, this would mean they will divide only the AH/Trading servers and keep the rest common

Kroan
04-07-2014, 03:08 AM
That would solve all the problems.. but very unlikely, this would mean they will divide only the AH/Trading servers and keep the rest common
Would make sense to me though.

meetthefuture
04-07-2014, 03:09 AM
Would make sense to me though.
For me too, but that doesn't really correspond to what they have said yet :(

Kroan
04-07-2014, 03:24 AM
For me too, but that doesn't really correspond to what they have said yet :(
I think they want make people happy as much as possible. I don't see any reason not to allow everyone play together, so hopefully they can achieve that.

hammer
04-07-2014, 03:39 AM
The double back promised to mark cards winning tournaments with a trophy. In theory, if the winner was selling and you had the funds to outbid others, you could buy the specific card that the world champion played on his way to the title. Certainly lots of ifs and buts, albeit possible. I certainly wont rule out "Future" winning on a big event on the global tournament server but then the coveted mark card would forever reside on the Russian server. A narrow case but it does seem to go against the spirit of the double back and limit the market for resale.

BenRGamer
04-07-2014, 07:18 AM
It's not a product. It's a reward.

Don't be stupid. We were promised something if we paid X, we paid X, we're entitled to that something. That quote you just talked down specifically says it can be the basis for a lawsuit if we don't get it.

Granted, no one here's talking about lawsuits, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's stupid to say it's not a duck.

ursa23
04-07-2014, 07:32 AM
If you are really, truly, worried about the gardens I have a solution for you. As an expat who plans to return to the good ol' US of A I plan to use it too. It's been mentioned in this thread. It really isn't hard. I'm not in any ways a hacker but I figured it out. Victor. Papa. November. Three little letters that make IP based walls disappear, as if by techno-magic.

Kroan
04-07-2014, 08:00 AM
Don't be stupid. We were promised something if we paid X, we paid X, we're entitled to that something. That quote you just talked down specifically says it can be the basis for a lawsuit if we don't get it.

Granted, no one here's talking about lawsuits, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's stupid to say it's not a duck.
Just because you start insulting people, doesn't mean you have it right. It's actually a sign you're most likely wrong. You are not buying products on kickstarter and kickstarter is not a shop, as much as you wish it was, it doesn't make it any more true.

BenRGamer
04-07-2014, 08:15 AM
Just because you start insulting people, doesn't mean you have it right. It's actually a sign you're most likely wrong. You are not buying products on kickstarter and kickstarter is not a shop, as much as you wish it was, it doesn't make it any more true.

Except you still haven't disproven my point. How is it not a purchase when we have a legal basis for a lawsuit for not getting what we pay for?

Kroan
04-07-2014, 08:31 AM
The double back promised to mark cards winning tournaments with a trophy. In theory, if the winner was selling and you had the funds to outbid others, you could buy the specific card that the world champion played on his way to the title. Certainly lots of ifs and buts, albeit possible. I certainly wont rule out "Future" winning on a big event on the global tournament server but then the coveted mark card would forever reside on the Russian server. A narrow case but it does seem to go against the spirit of the double back and limit the market for resale.
So anyway. I actually haven't thought of this. Wonder if CZE considered this as well?

ossuary
04-07-2014, 11:01 AM
Except you still haven't disproven my point. How is it not a purchase when we have a legal basis for a lawsuit for not getting what we pay for?

Because nowhere in the Kickstarter terms of service does it say shit one about "the rewards you receive will be worth exactly X, and not a penny less." The Kickstarter rewards say you will receive X number of packs, and Y drafts per week assuming you're at a $250 or higher tier. If some markets end up offering packs for cheaper at release, CZE could not have possibly known that at the time of the campaign. But you will still get your X packs and Y drafts, so they will be fulfilling their requirements, and you have no legal recourse, as no wrong has been done. The end.

chili
04-07-2014, 11:18 AM
I think that the people who are arguing FOR the walled gardens as described are american CZE apologists, who think this is another "non-issue" issue because it doesn't them affect personally. Obviously certain regions like China have laws that do not apply to the rest of the world and should be sectioned off for legal reasons. However the rest of the world has no such laws and it is a very big deal the community that you get "stuck" with. There are WoW and LoL latin american servers, generally these have a smaller player pool and a shittier community, latin america culture is filled with people who like to insult each other in a friendly banter in person, and I like that. However once we get to the internet everyone turns into a complete foul-mouth and gets extremely racist with each other, depending on which country your are from I will talk to you or kill you. I do not like being a part of gaming communities in Latin American servers, to me it is a less valuable experience and not one which was advertised. When LoL offered me RP and a skin to switch I did not, even though I wanted to get spanish dubbed voices.

I would also like to say that gaming is an expensive hobby. Usually in third world countries are more expensive than american prices. People have a lower average income in those countries, they still buy the games. Games like league of legends do not actually reduce the cost of champions in the LAN region. Other games let us choose the region in which we play, all I want is to choose my play region. I think that the expectation of a digital product if you purchase through american means (american credit card) or in american territory is that you have access to the NA servers. If people are willing to pay more for a better experience let them and don't lock them through IP. To all who are saying you can use VPN, well I don't want to pay for a VPN when all my other computer games have no problem letting me choose to be in the US servers.

Gwaer
04-07-2014, 11:58 AM
The rest of the world actually has it's own laws about what can be sold how it can be sold if it can be resold who owns it what rights they have to it. Every region differs on all of these points. The gardens are necessary, but I think KS and SB who paid in usd should be able to choose the region their account is located on and play in that region.

As to the other discussion going on, KS is absolutely 100% a purchase. It's not a donation in any real sense regardless what people may call it. You pay a set amount of money for a product. That is a purchase no matter how you slice it. The low level tiers that offer nothing but thanks are a donation. But the second you are offered a product for money you are purchasing. people have definitely purchased a product at this point, and if CZE segregates them to a server they don't want to be on, I think they'd have a case to win a refund in court of they so chose. The KS video, and updates make a lot of promises on playing with everyone, and certain booster prices which pin the KS rewards at a certain value. THey even use that value as a marketing tool for explaining how good of a deal it was. It's just best to think of KS as a risky preorder.

Xenavire
04-07-2014, 12:05 PM
Chili - I can come from the other perspective. I was playing WoW (EU server) and at the start it was great. Later on, a lot of people from the Philippines flooded the server (and many other servers) which was uncomfortable for everyone involved (trade was spammed with gibberish for both sides, so the population was heavily segregated thanks to the language barrier and nothing more.)

Then Blizzard made a Philippines server, and they did not force server transfers. Yet those people flocked away to their own language server, and everybody was happier.

So sure - if someone can overcome the language barrier and the payment barrier, they should be free to choose. But lumping together a bunch of people who do not understand each other is not really fair, and that is why I think both options need to exist.

I don't actually think anyone here believes that others should 'get over it', but more that the problem is minor to a large chunk of people. It still deserves a 'fix', but I think the realist view here is that there may not be a 'fix'.

fido_one
04-07-2014, 12:20 PM
The varying laws thing is just PR speak. CZE is an American company and only falls under American law.

No. We live in a litigious society, and laws are constantly in debate - that's why we have arbitration, which can be quite costly. 'Just PR speak' on this matter couldn't be the furthest from the truth.

Also, there isn't a country out there that is going to go 'oh! If it's an American law, those laws will take precedence over our laws because it is based out of America and we agree with everything they do.'

Unless you're the UK. <- That's a joke! I love you guys, seriously I do, I just couldn't resist that one.

BlackRoger
04-07-2014, 01:07 PM
I'm from a Israel, which is technically Asia.
However we have kind of bad relations with alot of our neighbors and as a result we participate in european events and not Asian.
Also I do not know how to speak neither Arabic, russion or any other Asian language.

Now there isn't really an "Asia" garden, so I'm hoping we'll be in europe?
If not I will be massively bummed.
Still simpler to just let us choose though.

Also for those who keep mentioning VPN I've had bad expirience with VPN latency wise with computer games.
I know it isn't supposed to be as intense as a shooter but I still would prefer not to have to go through all that crap just to play with people I can actually talk with.

BenRGamer
04-07-2014, 03:33 PM
Because nowhere in the Kickstarter terms of service does it say shit one about "the rewards you receive will be worth exactly X, and not a penny less." The Kickstarter rewards say you will receive X number of packs, and Y drafts per week assuming you're at a $250 or higher tier. If some markets end up offering packs for cheaper at release, CZE could not have possibly known that at the time of the campaign. But you will still get your X packs and Y drafts, so they will be fulfilling their requirements, and you have no legal recourse, as no wrong has been done. The end.

Well, number one that's not what we were debating about--but rather that Kickstarter pledges constituted a purchase.

And number two, you're wrong. The kickstarter tiers do lay out how much of a value they are. The first two sentences of King Tier, for example, list:


4 Starter Decks (40.00 value). 150 Booster Packs (300.00 value).

You see what that was there? That was them telling you how much they were worth.

ossuary
04-08-2014, 04:49 AM
Well, number one that's not what we were debating about--but rather that Kickstarter pledges constituted a purchase.

You were arguing that. Other people were arguing other things. I was ignoring that part, because it's been hashed over a hundred times already and it's a stupid conversation.


You see what that was there? That was them telling you how much they were worth.

Sure, in USD, if you bought them at retail, from the US servers. At the time, they expected there to only be one server for everyone. That, however, turned out to be logistically impossible. Their estimated time of delivery turned out to be wrong, too. It's still not grounds for a lawsuit (feel free to waste your money though, if you're so inclined). The Double Fine Adventure game also delivered half a product to their backers, despite making something insane like 10x what they were asking for. There are also a number of backed projects that have straight up failed. And you can't get your money back from them, either, because the money is gone.

See how that works? Now do you understand why it's not REALLY a purchase, regardless of what the Kickstarter page might say in its TOS to try to legitimize itself, or to protect itself legally? You can use whatever words you want to describe it, but one word you can never use is "guarantee." Nobody on Kickstarter can 100% guarantee that you will be given exactly 100% of what you were told you can get, when you're told you will. That's the risk of backing. If you can't deal with that, don't back. Something else Kickstarter says in their FAQ that a lot of people miss is that you back projects because "you need them to exist," not because you are seeking financial reward.

In short, the rewards that were offered are the digital goods you will be receiving. CZE used an approximate cash equivalent at the time of offering to help people understand how much was in the reward packages, but it's not an investment and they're under no obligation to maintain that price point. As long as they deliver the actual rewards they promised (the digital goods) they are completely in adherence with the Kickstarter guidelines and requirements.

BenRGamer
04-08-2014, 07:39 AM
Oh, it's not an investment, that much I agree with, but I still claim it's a purchase. Caveat emptor is in full effect, of course, hence the 'good faith' clause in there, but it's still a purchase, with legal recourse if the company is trying to pull a scam. If I recall, there's precedent for such lawsuits actually succeeding, too.

I've got no particular stake in this argument as I'll be on the US server, so I'm just playing devil's advocate. But as they clearly laid out just how much each tier was worth, anyone can fully understand why there's questions or concerns, and that now, while the game is still in alpha and much of this stuff is in the air, is a good time to bring it up and talk about it. Trying to shout it down is pointless.

hex_colin
04-08-2014, 07:48 AM
Oh, it's not an investment, that much I agree with, but I still claim it's a purchase. Caveat emptor is in full effect, of course, hence the 'good faith' clause in there, but it's still a purchase, with legal recourse if the company is trying to pull a scam. If I recall, there's precedent for such lawsuits actually succeeding, too.

I've got no particular stake in this argument as I'll be on the US server, so I'm just playing devil's advocate. But as they clearly laid out just how much each tier was worth, anyone can fully understand why there's questions or concerns, and that now, while the game is still in alpha and much of this stuff is in the air, is a good time to bring it up and talk about it. Trying to shout it down is pointless.

We've all been playing the game for months and CZE communicates with us every single week - you're not convincing any reasonable person that CZE was out to scam us. Also, at this point, CZE has delivered way more than most Kickstarters I've backed over the past 1.5 years.

BenRGamer
04-08-2014, 08:09 AM
Oh, yeah, as I said, absolutely no one is talking lawsuit--I only brought it up in the context that this is more or less a purchase with legal backing against people who say that it's not.

chili
04-08-2014, 09:43 AM
You were arguing that. Other people were arguing other things. I was ignoring that part, because it's been hashed over a hundred times already and it's a stupid conversation.



Sure, in USD, if you bought them at retail, from the US servers. At the time, they expected there to only be one server for everyone. That, however, turned out to be logistically impossible. Their estimated time of delivery turned out to be wrong, too. It's still not grounds for a lawsuit (feel free to waste your money though, if you're so inclined). The Double Fine Adventure game also delivered half a product to their backers, despite making something insane like 10x what they were asking for. There are also a number of backed projects that have straight up failed. And you can't get your money back from them, either, because the money is gone.

See how that works? Now do you understand why it's not REALLY a purchase, regardless of what the Kickstarter page might say in its TOS to try to legitimize itself, or to protect itself legally? You can use whatever words you want to describe it, but one word you can never use is "guarantee." Nobody on Kickstarter can 100% guarantee that you will be given exactly 100% of what you were told you can get, when you're told you will. That's the risk of backing. If you can't deal with that, don't back. Something else Kickstarter says in their FAQ that a lot of people miss is that you back projects because "you need them to exist," not because you are seeking financial reward.

In short, the rewards that were offered are the digital goods you will be receiving. CZE used an approximate cash equivalent at the time of offering to help people understand how much was in the reward packages, but it's not an investment and they're under no obligation to maintain that price point. As long as they deliver the actual rewards they promised (the digital goods) they are completely in adherence with the Kickstarter guidelines and requirements.

What they're doing is obviously not illegal, but it's shitty, immoral, callous and dishonest and that's why people are upset.

ossuary
04-08-2014, 09:54 AM
It is none of those things. It is business. Sorry if reality intruded on your dream.

Xenavire
04-08-2014, 10:04 AM
Chilli - thats uncalled for. Crypto has a lot to deal with, things that they didn't take into account at the time they started the kickstarter. There was every chance that they thought the international market would be out of their league for years, and had no policies in place, etc etc. You don't know their inner workings, and their conduct so far has shown them to be anything but dishonest and immoral. They are the good guys of gaming right now.

And Oss, lets not make the situation worse here. Chilli is obviously upset, and while he shouldn't make accusations, you aren't exactly helping with that comment.

Gwaer
04-08-2014, 10:15 AM
I actually agree more with chili on this one. If someone backed from a region with such a poor economy that it needed cheaper packs to survive, but yet paid usd on kickstarter for a tier that promised X usd value, that honestly gives them more reason to be upset when they instead halve the value by offering packs in a much cheaper economy

also the release dates were always estimated, they aren't part of the agreement made, just to give you an idea of how far out the creators think their product is. They're notoriously always wrong. However those values were not estimated. The 2 dollar pack price was set in stone to every KS backer for the duration of the KS, refunds were stopped before people found out they would be IP locked into a region even if they paid full USD regional prices already. I don't expect it to stay like that, simply because CZE has more integrity than that. There has to be an option for people that are KS backers to not be trapped in a region they do not feel they belong.

Jacklau89
04-08-2014, 10:21 AM
I am surprised to see zero update from CZE so far.

Would anyone from CZE kindly explains in details how this regional IP systems works, any chance for us to select our own server, or at least give us a head up knowing that Cryptozoic is aware of this issue but requires time to discuss internally? Thank you for any update.

Ebynfel
04-08-2014, 12:41 PM
They did say that they are going to be unlocking the ks rewards via a code we enter into our personal user account, right? Well, I volunteer, if this is still the case, to create accounts and log into them for the first time(you can reset your pword and change your e-mail before you enter your codes), so that the ip logging of the account(they said something in the interview about this process happening at creation) is logged in the US. I am sure other Americans and Europeans would gladly help out in this regard as well if this is both how it works, and stays that way.

chili
04-08-2014, 01:12 PM
It is none of those things. It is business. Sorry if reality intruded on your dream.

I am aware of what business is. I am aware of caveat emptor, and I am in fact fully aware that Cryptozoic could choose to take our money and not make the game or make the game and not give us our full rewards, no legal document was signed at any point and legal recourse would be more expensive in most cases than the amount invested. However they "promised" something, now they have no legal or business reason to truly fulfill this promise, if they were in the business of making a quick buck, they could simply disappear with the money, and we would have no true legal recourse. But no one would do business with them in the future, they would lose customer satisfaction and their brand would be impacted negatively.

In other terms, there are two different courses of action to take in bargaining or business proposals: integrative and distributive, integrative is looking to cooperate and reach a fulfilling proposition within both parties, the idea being that continued business or shared interests will be positively impacted, and create an overall long term benefit vs short term benefit. Distributive is I will bleed you and try to take as much as I can from you while you giving you the least I can, so I can have the best short term profit possible. Generally Cryptozoic is integrative and has been trying to work with their community to build a long lasting relationship with the community, I think that these series of decisions come from wanting to protect the interests of the american community (monetary value of collection), while maximizing distribution in other regions (having region based pricing, and third parties managing other regions), and an overall ignorance of the realities of people who play games outside of the US.

Now it is possible I don't personally have a problem, it is possible that support and distribution of this game in Mexico falls under the North American umbrella, or that you can choose your region, but cryptozoic has not released this information probably because they don't have it and are currently in discussions. However a precedent of an IP based account system is an issue that I want addressed now because in the future the regions could change and I could be forced to play somewhere else.

More to the point: I want to play this game because I want to form part of a specific community. Will I be able to play with my guild? Will I be able to participate in high end tournaments? Will the prize payout be the same in all regions? Generally speaking the US community always gets the most perks and I want to be part of it because of that. None of these questions have answers, the answers are likely still in the formative stage and may in fact change later, what I am trying to do is make this a community issue because this is by far one of the most important things to be defined about your gameplay experience, more than PVE cards or PVP or whatever it is your fundamental access to the community that you interact with and the monetary value of your purchase.

Putting business acumen aside and back to what I said about Cryptozoic, it is simple: if you promise me something as a person/customer, and do not deliver you are:
Dishonest
If you are dishonest you are:
Immoral (or incompetent)
If you communicate this information to me in an unclear or incomplete manner without taking account my interests you are:
Callous

Shitty is open to debate, but this situation is pretty shitty to me.

I didn't have a dream I made a purchase with a calculated risk (It was very high), now that things are not turning up to be to my expectations or promised product and services (which was likely) I will complain and try to change them.

fido_one
04-08-2014, 01:38 PM
Putting business acumen aside and back to what I said about Cryptozoic, it is simple: if you promise me something as a person/customer, and do not deliver you are:
Dishonest
If you are dishonest you are:
Immoral (or incompetent)
If you communicate this information to me in an unclear or incomplete manner without taking account my interests you are:
Callous

Shitty is open to debate, but this situation is pretty shitty to me.

I didn't have a dream I made a purchase with a calculated risk (It was very high), now that things are not turning up to be to my expectations or promised product and services (which was likely) I will complain and try to change them.


Right, I never like to do this. But:

Oh.
Fucking.
Please.

Please don't go straight to the top shelf with your perceived offenses. It's a crappier form of Godwin's law. We're talking about a video game that you and everyone else on this forum could spend money on *well before the product even existed*. If you're going to throw 'Dishonest', 'Immoral' etc. around at a group of people save it for a government that is trying genocide or something.

stiii
04-08-2014, 01:43 PM
To be fair he is replying to ossuary. Got to get down to that level of terrible.

Xenavire
04-08-2014, 01:46 PM
I would like to report Chilli for being generally toxic for no apparent reason other than being displeased. I am fairly sure he is violating the CoC, but I do not feel up to reading the CoC to prove it.

Final word from me on the matter: CZE have made mistakes, they have not intentionally done anything wrong. They have been as clear as possible on things that are important - usually we know as much as they do. They have never acted poorly, and have been nothing but generous.

Gwaer
04-08-2014, 02:51 PM
If chili gets banned for that post, me, stii, oss, yoss and you xen are all going too. We've all done worse than that. Does he have a penchant of getting a bit gritty a bit faster than necessary, sure. But he has a legitimate grievance, has laid it out pretty clearly, and has been antagonized about it. It can only be expected...

stiii
04-08-2014, 03:24 PM
If chili gets banned for that post, me, stii, oss, yoss and you xen are all going too. We've all done worse than that. Does he have a penchant of getting a bit gritty a bit faster than necessary, sure. But he has a legitimate grievance, has laid it out pretty clearly, and has been antagonized about it. It can only be expected...

+1 to this

Although I'm not sure you Gwaer are even in that group any more you've been so reasonable reccently

Xenavire
04-08-2014, 03:57 PM
I still want to report him, not for a ban, but a warning. Perhaps I should have made that clear - I don't want this to escalate. People need time to cool off, rather than having this blow up like other threads and fights in not so distant threads - where I was as guilty as others.

Preventative measures wanted, not banhammer.

ossuary
04-08-2014, 04:12 PM
To be fair he is replying to ossuary. Got to get down to that level of terrible.

If you say my name three times while looking into the reflection on your laptop screen while posting to the forums, I will appear.

chili
04-08-2014, 10:23 PM
I still want to report him, not for a ban, but a warning. Perhaps I should have made that clear - I don't want this to escalate. People need time to cool off, rather than having this blow up like other threads and fights in not so distant threads - where I was as guilty as others.

Preventative measures wanted, not banhammer.

LOL, I don't even know what to write, if what I wrote before offends you I don't want to get permabanned pointing things out in a civil fashion and not insulting/threatening anyone or anything. Just don't go to NeoGaf or someplace like that.

Kroan
04-09-2014, 12:24 AM
If you think that's a civil fashion, I'm not sure you what civil means.

meetthefuture
04-09-2014, 01:18 AM
One thing can't get out of my mind - if even Chili calls his local community toxic... God, that should be really scarry

havocattack
04-09-2014, 03:03 AM
Simple solution, all kickstarter backers (maybe even slackers too) get to choose if they want to be on US server (since they paid in US currency)

At the end of the day tho, we still don't really have enough info... if on first login it checks your location on IP and then from there you are designated a server, with that logic you could prob just use a you-know-what for the first time and probably wouldn't have to use it again (since your account/collection would now be locked to that server obviously)

Kami
04-09-2014, 05:39 AM
Okay.

First off, stop antagonizing each other. If you want to make a point about someone's argument refrain from targeting them (e.g. your idea is stupid because you're stupid; as opposed to, the idea is flawed due to x, y, z). Target the argument.

Secondly, please try to stop swearing. There are potentially kids who wander these forums and HEX is meant to be family-friendly. I don't mind but in the interest of keeping things clean, please stop swearing.

Thanks.

jonsnow2000
04-09-2014, 07:52 AM
People should really try to calm down and have some faith in CZE. I can't imagine them forcing players into specific "walled gardens" via IP or payment-locking. Yes, the client will probably check your IP and try to sign you into that region, but I'm very sure there will be an option to select your preffered region. CZE has to know that not doing so would create some very bad blood between them and their playerbase. Not a very good way to start a game that is published by a company who says they put "fans first".

SriSyadasti
04-09-2014, 04:33 PM
You know nothing Jon Snow!

Although yeah, that's probably basically right. Odds are CZE will try to make things as easy for us as possible, and not force anyone to play in a particular IP region unless they're compelled to by a country's laws or the terms of contracts with their partners.

chili
04-09-2014, 06:45 PM
People should really try to calm down and have some faith in CZE. I can't imagine them forcing players into specific "walled gardens" via IP or payment-locking. Yes, the client will probably check your IP and try to sign you into that region, but I'm very sure there will be an option to select your preffered region. CZE has to know that not doing so would create some very bad blood between them and their playerbase. Not a very good way to start a game that is published by a company who says they put "fans first".

That's what I thought which is why I initially did not care, but in the interview with infamousneo they said it would be IP based, which would in fact "force" you. I am pretty sure none of this is set in stone, I just wanted to make a big deal out of it so that they know it's a bad idea. I can't think of any game that actually forces you to play on a non-NA server

Xenavire
04-09-2014, 06:53 PM
That's what I thought which is why I initially did not care, but in the interview with infamousneo they said it would be IP based, which would in fact "force" you. I am pretty sure none of this is set in stone, I just wanted to make a big deal out of it so that they know it's a bad idea. I can't think of any game that actually forces you to play on a non-NA server

Pretty sure WoW, but only if you don't know how to create the right kind of account, or you are unable to pay the correct currency. I think a lot of paid MMO's are like this.

But actually impossible? I can't think of any, at least none that can't be bypassed. Maybe Maple Story? I know that was a pain in the past.

YourOpponent
04-10-2014, 11:45 AM
Legally speaking they need to have the walled gardens. This can be an inconvenience yes, but this also allows us to more easily become an E-sport, which is exciting and means people could even end up getting cash prizes from tournaments later! Personally I think the IP address designating which garden you are in is the best solution...but hear me out. If you don't want to be in that garden anyway there are ways to use a different IP address as previously mentioned.

ALSO I think there should be a system to get your garden changed. This way if somebody is in the military goes back to the United States they aren't stuck in a garden from wherever they were stationed at. This would probably be by mailing/E-mailing with proof of address (something like a bill) and a photo ID.

Also I think that if somebody still wants in a different garden than the IP is trying to give them then there can be a waiver for them to sign so that they can't receive cash rewards and so forth while they are in the garden that they should be designated in. That way friends can still play with friends for dungeons and so forth....and trade with them.

Something I also think should be done about the KS rewards is a small way to help balance things out. For example if KS'ed clearly they are getting less of a value for what they backed. What I suggest to help balance that out is that they also get the difference they are missing out on from the starter decks and booster packs be sent to them as platinum. That way somebody doesn't feel discriminated based off of where they live.

Xenavire
04-10-2014, 11:55 AM
Legally speaking they need to have the walled gardens. This can be an inconvenience yes, but this also allows us to more easily become an E-sport, which is exciting and means people could even end up getting cash prizes from tournaments later! Personally I think the IP address designating which garden you are in is the best solution...but hear me out. If you don't want to be in that garden anyway there are ways to use a different IP address as previously mentioned.

ALSO I think there should be a system to get your garden changed. This way if somebody is in the military goes back to the United States they aren't stuck in a garden from wherever they were stationed at. This would probably be by mailing/E-mailing with proof of address (something like a bill) and a photo ID.

Something I also think should be done about the KS rewards is a small way to help balance things out. For example if KS'ed clearly they are getting less of a value for what they backed. What I suggest to help balance that out is that they also get the difference they are missing out on from the starter decks and booster packs be sent to them as platinum. That way somebody doesn't feel discriminated based off of where they live.

I have a hypothetical - what if a country has a currency that is stronger than US currency, but lives in a country that will be in a walled garden, and booster packs will 'cost more' than they did in the kickstarter? Would they be penalised? I mean they would be getting more boosters packs than they should have for the value paid.

It is only a hypothetical (I don't think that situation exists, and if it does I am ignorant of it) but it would be unfair to give some people more than others - which is why I think 'refunding' some plat to people who payed more for kickstarter packs than normal would be a bad idea. It isn't going to be 'equal' anyway.

I would rather a regoin selector when creating the account, and then using the IP to authenticate (to prevent hacking). I think that would be better solution overall - make server suggestions, maybe even require a 1 cent payment through a credit cards/paypal to be a part of the US server (and other regions would use whatever payment methods for that region).

I dunno, it is a tricky situation, but I am not seeing anything elegant or completely fair (IP dodging aside.)

chili
04-10-2014, 12:33 PM
I have a hypothetical - what if a country has a currency that is stronger than US currency, but lives in a country that will be in a walled garden, and booster packs will 'cost more' than they did in the kickstarter? Would they be penalised? I mean they would be getting more boosters packs than they should have for the value paid.

It is only a hypothetical (I don't think that situation exists, and if it does I am ignorant of it) but it would be unfair to give some people more than others - which is why I think 'refunding' some plat to people who payed more for kickstarter packs than normal would be a bad idea. It isn't going to be 'equal' anyway.

I would rather a regoin selector when creating the account, and then using the IP to authenticate (to prevent hacking). I think that would be better solution overall - make server suggestions, maybe even require a 1 cent payment through a credit cards/paypal to be a part of the US server (and other regions would use whatever payment methods for that region).

I dunno, it is a tricky situation, but I am not seeing anything elegant or completely fair (IP dodging aside.)

The point is there is no good solution, just let people choose their region and play within their region, and stop trying to force IP authentication, or another thing would be to simply have international fixed prices for things, as originally intended evearyone pays the equivalent of 2 USD for a booster and that's that.

YourOpponent
04-10-2014, 05:26 PM
I have a hypothetical - what if a country has a currency that is stronger than US currency, but lives in a country that will be in a walled garden, and booster packs will 'cost more' than they did in the kickstarter? Would they be penalised? I mean they would be getting more boosters packs than they should have for the value paid.

It is only a hypothetical (I don't think that situation exists, and if it does I am ignorant of it) but it would be unfair to give some people more than others - which is why I think 'refunding' some plat to people who payed more for kickstarter packs than normal would be a bad idea. It isn't going to be 'equal' anyway.

I would rather a regoin selector when creating the account, and then using the IP to authenticate (to prevent hacking). I think that would be better solution overall - make server suggestions, maybe even require a 1 cent payment through a credit cards/paypal to be a part of the US server (and other regions would use whatever payment methods for that region).

I dunno, it is a tricky situation, but I am not seeing anything elegant or completely fair (IP dodging aside.)

They already announced that when there is a technical problem that they would go with whatever wouldn't be a penalty for a player I thought. So given that mindset that player would not have to pay more to make up for those rewards...neither would they be getting less packs.

Xenavire
04-10-2014, 06:06 PM
They already announced that when there is a technical problem that they would go with whatever wouldn't be a penalty for a player I thought. So given that mindset that player would not have to pay more to make up for those rewards...neither would they be getting less packs.

I am well aware of that :) my question wasn't about what CZE would/should do, but about the suggestion only.

I mean the whole thing was pure theory, nothing serious.