PDA

View Full Version : PVE Consumables to be temporary versions KS buffs?



Yubar
04-05-2014, 02:40 PM
I know we've talked about this in the past but with it being brought up again in the recent interview with Cory I think its appropriate to once again speculate if the Dungeon Crawler/Raid Leader bonuses will/should be implemented as consumable/temporary PvE bonuses.

I for one think they absolutely should. It creates a greater level of fairness for non KS players and could also be a monetary outlet for PvE, assuming these buffs would be available for plat (o fcourse they could be bought with a high amount of gold too). I know things like this could be a slippery slope to Pay to Win but it would definitely even the field as far as "competitive" PvE is concerned (level clear stats etc) without too much degradation of PvE experience for the majority of casual PvE'ers. I'll probably get a lot of hate for this but I think if PvE ends up being as grand as CZE says, there should be ways for them to be compensated. (Will perhaps post something for PvE benefits to VIP in the future)

Any thoughts?

Xenavire
04-05-2014, 02:44 PM
While I wouldn't say no to having a consumable raid leader buff or whatever, I hope the ideas are a little broader and more unique. A recovery potion that gives you an extra death mark in a dungeon? A sack to double the gold dropped? I could see some amazing and interesting ideas already, and we have very little knowledge of what is possible in PvE.

Yubar
04-05-2014, 02:49 PM
Definitely not trying to bar consumables only to these mentioned above, I'm sure there will be tons of amazing quirky items, I just wanted to bring attention to these very powerful benefits in particular.

Xenavire
04-05-2014, 02:57 PM
Yeah, I am hoping that we get at least a lesser version of the current KS exclusive buffs. I mean I could live with bonus cards in hand, and no raid leaders blessing. Or a buff to drops, but less than dungeon crawlers.

Not saying we shouldn't get the full buffs, but at least partial if CZE thinks it is unfair/unbalanced.

chili
04-05-2014, 03:02 PM
I think consumables will be stuff like get a free mulligan once per dungeon, or some sort of weird temporary champ/sideboard mechanic

Xenavire
04-05-2014, 03:10 PM
Oh, I just thought of one I would love oh so much - Double all health gain for this dungeon. (Would obviously work for opponents too.) I don't care if it sucks, I still want it. :p

DanTheMeek
04-05-2014, 04:16 PM
I am of the opinion that it would probably be good for new player (or KS players who didn't get those tiers) morale if all those unique advantageous were available, but only as long as they were expensive, limited use, gold costing items. Making them cost Plat would put people up in arms about pay to win, and making them permanent or cheap or would cheapen the bonuses for the supporters who paid quite large sums of money to get those bonuses. You could also make them available as rare drops instead of having a cost at all, something else to go after besides equipment and cards and gold, but again, they need to be either one time effects, or limited effects (aka, for duration of dungeon, for the next 24 hours, etc.), no one should ever be able to permanently have the same buffs and advantages the KS people were told would be exclusives for them.

Yoss
04-05-2014, 05:25 PM
I'd be happy if the $250 tier PvE bonuses were all available as (reasonably expensive in Gold) consumables. Solves the Pay To Win problem. Other consumables also would be great, but those three seem like a must have.

On the flip side, they should NOT charge Plat for them. Take a page from Path of Exile and only charge money for PvE stuff that's cosmetic or otherwise attainable. (For example, you can buy more storage space, which is available for free through multi-accounting. You pay for convenience.)

Svenn
04-05-2014, 07:15 PM
I'd be happy if the $250 tier PvE bonuses were all available as (reasonably expensive in Gold) consumables. Solves the Pay To Win problem. Other consumables also would be great, but those three seem like a must have.

On the flip side, they should NOT charge Plat for them. Take a page from Path of Exile and only charge money for PvE stuff that's cosmetic or otherwise attainable. (For example, you can buy more storage space, which is available for free through multi-accounting. You pay for convenience.)
Cory already said that they are not going to be selling anything other than boosters. I forget the specific interview, but I remember him being fairly adamant that you won't see any other microtransactions like consumables or something. That being said, anything purchasable with gold can indirectly be purchased with real money (buy packs with platinum, sell for gold). I am sort of worried by this as Guild Wars had a similar setup (Gems were real money currency but could be turned into gold in game) and it meant that anyone could spend real money to bypass just about anything in the game. I suspect this won't be too bad because buying anything won't trivialize the content since you still have to build a deck/know how to play it well, as long as there are no ridiculously powerful consumables which would be an issue either way.

Anyway, as a GK backer I wouldn't have a problem with them putting some of the KS buffs as temporary consumables since I then wouldn't have to worry about making them. I don't think they will since they said all that stuff was KS exclusive, though, and I know they don't want to upset people.

Gwaer
04-05-2014, 11:23 PM
I'm pretty firmly against it still. I hope in a years time that the KS buffs are so rare people don't even really know they exist. I'd rather not advertise that there is this thing, you can pay for it(in gold or plat) to get it temporarily, but these other jerks that you can never be have them all the time forever. It'll never be fair to the same type of person who thinks it's unfair as is.

RobHaven
04-05-2014, 11:33 PM
No matter which way CZE goes, there will be a group of people happy and a group unhappy.

Personally, I don't want to see KS tiers turned into consumables because it's an enormous slap in the face to all $250+ backers. Similarly, I don't want to see buffs be a "only one on" kind of thing (meaning I'd have to turn off my KS buff to use a consumable buff).

Stok3d
04-06-2014, 06:39 AM
There is a Gold Sink Idea Thread (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26817) that speaks about consumables that you may find interesting.

chili
04-06-2014, 07:48 AM
I'm pretty firmly against it still. I hope in a years time that the KS buffs are so rare people don't even really know they exist. I'd rather not advertise that there is this thing, you can pay for it(in gold or plat) to get it temporarily, but these other jerks that you can never be have them all the time forever. It'll never be fair to the same type of person who thinks it's unfair as is.

People won't be waiting outside your house for you, quite honestly I don't get why ppl don't want these buffs being sold. The Kickstarter get a very real tangible benefit of not having to pay for them and they still get implemented and the gam can be abalnced around the buffs as well.

Kroan
04-06-2014, 09:15 AM
I can imagine making consumables that have the same effect as some KS-rewards. I'd imagine they stack with the KS-reward tho.

Yoss
04-06-2014, 09:34 AM
I can imagine making consumables that have the same effect as some KS-rewards. I'd imagine they stack with the KS-reward tho.

If you mean that a DC could buy +1 card or a RL could buy % loot boost, yes that's fine. If you mean a RL could buy another +1 card, or a DC could buy an additional % increase, then no; that defeats the whole purpose.

Kilo24
04-06-2014, 10:14 AM
A large part of why I went for Grand King is because I went in with the expectation that those bonuses were one-of-a-kind and would be unable to be attained in the future. The big worry was that they'd be selling a load of temporary buffs for real money; they've promised that that would not be the case. The still-present worry is that temporary buffs are going to be all over the Auction House and are going to be expensive money sinks that you'd be holding back raids not to have, and/or disincentivize experimentation because they're too expensive to waste but the dungeons are designed to expect you to use them.

Whether or not that was a reasonable expectation is another question (one that I'm sure Shadowelf would have had the answer to), but I do seem to recall some quote saying that they had no plans for similar raid buffs back when the Kickstarter was running.

I really would not want the Dungeon Crawler bonus available to other players: if they do that, the loot drop tables will be designed to take that into account and the DC bonus will for practical purposes become a free buff slot at best or a mild moneysaver at worst (which it was not advertised as). There's also that I'm really not fond of +gold drop or +magic find gear/abilities as a general rule because if they're not negligible they end up reducing gear/ability diversity in high-level play (and doing very little if they are negligible); I'd prefer to see them not compete for any limited slots. Unfortunately, improving gold drops was mentioned as an account level ability in Cory's blog, so I won't get my wish completely.

The Raid Leader buff is less of an issue, but I still would dislike it being accessible to others because it erodes the value of the KS tier. Other raid buffs would be fine, though.

Barkam
04-06-2014, 11:40 AM
This "competitive" PvE is toxic. The only competitive PvE should be limited to CZE sanctioned PvE tournaments. Otherwise the community degenerates as they start bickering between haves and have nots

Kroan
04-06-2014, 12:03 PM
If you mean that a DC could buy +1 card or a RL could buy % loot boost, yes that's fine. If you mean a RL could buy another +1 card, or a DC could buy an additional % increase, then no; that defeats the whole purpose.

Yes, well... that's your opinion. Not a fact. You should really learn the difference between them, you often find it quite hard to tell them apart ;)

Also you might have noticed I said "some". I didn't say all. For example I can imagine there to be a potion that you can craft that increases the XP you gain (in which case you get double XP increase if you're in a guild with the Guild Leader Perk), but I can't imagine there to be a potion that will let you start with an extra card in a raid.

Also people shouldn't worry that much. They won't make a potion that will nullify the challenge in a raid or dungeon. It's all fun in PvE anyway. Did you guys actually see some of the PvE cards?

Roy_G
04-06-2014, 12:50 PM
Kilo24 is right.Giving the same temporary buffs like the KS effects will cause CZE to take those into the design decisions of the dungeons and the loot table and will nullify it's value.Every dungeon loot will designed to take into account the buff and every raid
will also be built for the raid leader +1 card and blessing.

Plus CZE said there will not be similar buffs like those in the KS.

Gwaer
04-06-2014, 01:07 PM
This "competitive" PvE is toxic. The only competitive PvE should be limited to CZE sanctioned PvE tournaments. Otherwise the community degenerates as they start bickering between haves and have nots

^I really think this is the most important point. I've been trying to make it for ages. Tournament PVE should be the only place for real PVE competition. Achievement hunting is fun, having a bit of stress about who gets an achievement first, or who is the only person with an achievement is interesting, but it doesn't mean anything, it garners no long term rewards other than the ability to screenshot your achievement, or have people randomly come across it when looking at your profile, it should be the anything goes version of PVE. While tournament pve should not allow buffs of any kind and be the competitive format that people care about.

Xenavire
04-06-2014, 01:16 PM
^I really think this is the most important point. I've been trying to make it for ages. Tournament PVE should be the only place for real PVE competition. Achievement hunting is fun, having a bit of stress about who gets an achievement first, or who is the only person with an achievement is interesting, but it doesn't mean anything, it garners no long term rewards other than the ability to screenshot your achievement, or have people randomly come across it when looking at your profile, it should be the anything goes version of PVE. While tournament pve should not allow buffs of any kind and be the competitive format that people care about.

I am really in agreement with the idea of PvE tournaments rather than world firsts. Besides, with RnG how it is, and how hard it is to control your draws etc, the best player who works the hardest might miss out based purely on luck. I just don't think that would breed a healthy PvE environment.

I do think achievements for fun and weird things need to be a big part of the game though. I just never liked the 'First!' mentality. I mean just because you did it first, doesn't mean you did it the best out of everyone. It is like setting records - they are meant to be broken by the next amazing person. A first cannot ever be broken - it happens, and its done.

Yoss
04-06-2014, 01:39 PM
Yes, well... that's your opinion. Not a fact.
Obviously.


You should really learn the difference between them, you often find it quite hard to tell them apart ;)
If I do it so often, perhaps you can go find an example.

On the other hand, if your point is just that I state my points strongly, without equivocating with things like "IMHO" or whatever, then you're right. Adding "I think", "IMHO", "I could be wrong", and whatnot is generally not good penmanship. When you have an opinion, state it clearly. Everyone already knows it's your opinion by the very fact that you're the one saying it. There is no need to add "this is only my opinion" all the time. It just sounds silly.

stiii
04-06-2014, 01:56 PM
So how exactly would tournament PvE work?

Xenavire
04-06-2014, 02:03 PM
So how exactly would tournament PvE work?

I don't know what Gwaer has in mind, but I imagine as a 'Wild west' tournament with all the bells and whistles... Or a challenge mode dungeon with special conditions you have to fulfill to proceed to the next rounds, and the people who perform the best advance.

Both would be interesting and fairly unique.

Gwaer
04-06-2014, 02:03 PM
There is a virtually unlimited number of ways they could make it work, I've listed a ton of options all over the place. They have something in mind, since they specifically mentioned it in the kickstarter.

Yoss
04-06-2014, 02:33 PM
So how exactly would tournament PvE work?

Look at what Path of Exile does for theirs. Hex could do the same kind of thing. There are plenty of other options as well. There was a whole thread full of "Tournament PVE" ideas last year. Do a forum search.

EDIT:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26275&highlight=tournament

Kroan
04-06-2014, 02:46 PM
On the other hand, if your point is just that I state my points strongly, without equivocating with things like "IMHO" or whatever, then you're right. Adding "I think", "IMHO", "I could be wrong", and whatnot is generally not good penmanship. When you have an opinion, state it clearly. Everyone already knows it's your opinion by the very fact that you're the one saying it. There is no need to add "this is only my opinion" all the time. It just sounds silly.
The only thing silly are your posts. Too be honest, I can't even be bothered to spell it out for you, it's just not worth my time or trouble.

ossuary
04-06-2014, 03:46 PM
I don't know what Gwaer has in mind, but I imagine as a 'Wild west' tournament with all the bells and whistles... Or a challenge mode dungeon with special conditions you have to fulfill to proceed to the next rounds, and the people who perform the best advance.

Another way would be to open a specific dungeon (or even launch a new one at a pre-determined and announced time) that requires you to go in with just a starter deck or some other restriction, and having to meet certain criteria or win in certain ways to move on, or something like that. Then everyone all blasts away at it at the same time, and the X number who complete the challenge first are the winners, or who finish with the best score in a certain time, or something like that. That could be a huge amount of fun.


Look at what Path of Exile does for theirs.

PoE's challenges are pretty great. It's actually kind of similar to what I posted above, except it's more like "Go start a new character all at the same time and see who can do X first!" The only problem is that in that kind of scenario, it's kind of more RNG than actual skill. I guess you can't really get away from that TOO much in a TCG though - Kismet is always either smiling on you or trying to screw you over.

Barkam
04-06-2014, 05:50 PM
What you will find in PoE challenges is that the same group of people win the challenges and races consistently. Even though there is steong RNG, the skill definitely shines through.

Svenn
04-06-2014, 05:56 PM
What you will find in PoE challenges is that the same group of people win the challenges and races consistently. Even though there is steong RNG, the skill definitely shines through.

This. In the case of PoE you might have a difference of a couple places due to RNG, but a top 20 racer is a top 20 racer.

I'm not sure what the suggestion is in regards to PoE though... Time limited dungeons or something? That would heavily favor aggro decks I'd think.

Gwaer
04-06-2014, 06:09 PM
Not time limited so much as fresh start, no/limited access to your card pool. Forcing you to come up with the cards during the event.

There are so many possibilities it's crazy.

YourOpponent
04-06-2014, 07:39 PM
On a game I used to play called Kingdom of Loathing Accordion Thieves could cast their buffs on a record. That record could be played by anybody for a temporary buff...a potion if you will :) I wouldn't be against a raid leader being able to make 1 "raid leader buff" potion a day.

Oroniss
04-06-2014, 09:57 PM
Honestly, I hope they make the RL and DC type buffs available through (somewhat) expensive in game consumables.

It means they can do the balancing on the basis that everyone has access to said buffs, and I still feel that my KS benefit is really good, since I save all this gold which I can use for other things. It also means you won't see people excluded from raids because they don't have the KS buff, which would create a poor impression for new players.

Zomnivore
04-09-2014, 05:23 AM
With them being marketed as being exclusives never to be seen again, and that you wouldn't be able to get effects that mimic them in game... I'd say no.

They're supposed to be unique things. If there are to be other consumable buff things, they need to be different things.

Yubar
04-09-2014, 07:19 AM
Hmm the entire KS Tier package was exclusive yes, but I don't think we can extend that to saying a temporary +1 card bonus is out of the question. A perma version of this? Yes that is exclusive.

Zomnivore
04-09-2014, 08:57 AM
Yubar, I believe they specifically said you wouldn't be able to get a semi permanent version of any of the KS buffs.

Period.

With a big dot.

If they want other buffs thats cool, but mimicking the ones in the KS, they specifically said they wouldn't do.

Barkam
04-09-2014, 10:37 AM
It means they can do the balancing on the basis that everyone has access to said buffs

You see, thats the problem. You are now asking the developers to design their game to revolve around a consumable that costs money. You have now asked the developers to introduce an inconvenience to enjoy what really matters. That is the definition of a paywall or pay 2 win. Please dont even skirt with that succubus.

ossuary
04-09-2014, 10:40 AM
We already know that 1) the PVE experienced will be balanced without taking the KS rewards into account, and 2) there will NOT be a for-pay temporary buff of any of the KS reward effects. CZE has confirmed both of these facts previously. So this entire line of discussion is a moot point.

Gwaer
04-09-2014, 11:06 AM
CZE has changed their minds numerous time based on community feedback. I hope they don't start selling KS buffs, but telling people not to talk about it is contrary to what this community is about.

ossuary
04-09-2014, 11:11 AM
I never said not to talk about it. Anyone can feel free to talk about whatever they want, I'm just saying it's a waste of time to suggest those specific items be sold. It's completely counter to the kind of experience CZE is going for (as Barkam correctly pointed out above me).

They have changed their minds on things, but they're not going to suddenly decide to start rebalancing the whole game around powerful for-pay buffs, so that you can't compete or have fun without them. It's just not even remotely likely.

mudkip
04-09-2014, 12:14 PM
CZE has changed their minds numerous time based on community feedback. I hope they don't start selling KS buffs, but telling people not to talk about it is contrary to what this community is about.

I definitely hope they don't start selling them, but implementing something like it in game would help to show progression or if there's a limited number of perks you can have at a time, it would help to differentiate players.

Even if it was a watered down effect (e.g. +5% exp, 50% chance of starting with +1 card, etc.) that does not stack with the KS perks, I think that would be cool.

I have one of the $250 perks, and I'd be happy with the perks being shared with future players. The number of players with perks will naturally diminish with time, but I just fear that the perks will create elitist cliques.

Gwaer
04-09-2014, 12:27 PM
Also for pay leaves a lot of wiggle room, they specifically said they'd not create buffs like that for plat. Gold may very well be on the table.

Pandamaniac
04-09-2014, 07:37 PM
I'm pretty firmly against it still. I hope in a years time that the KS buffs are so rare people don't even really know they exist. I'd rather not advertise that there is this thing, you can pay for it(in gold or plat) to get it temporarily, but these other jerks that you can never be have them all the time forever. It'll never be fair to the same type of person who thinks it's unfair as is.

It's all in the presentation. If the temporary buffs sold for gold do NOT reference that there are KS rewards that give the same effect permanently (although you would have to inform the KS backers that the buffs do not stack), than those who don't know about these bonuses live in blissful ignorance, while those that find out at least have a way to get the buffs themselves and "even the playing field" when it comes to competitive PvE.

Roy_G
04-10-2014, 08:35 AM
It won't be ignorance.It make people more aware that the KS buffs exist.Eventually since KS backers will retire from the game statistically it will be rarer.Making the buffs temporary will hurt the KS backers since it won't give any advantage since everything will
be balanced around those perks,raids and dungeon loot tables.

AstaSyneri
04-14-2014, 05:48 AM
I certainly hope that those KS perks will give a significant edge (Raid Leader, Dungeon Crawler). Otherwise the discussion about the relative value of each of the $250 tiers would be very much moot - Pro Player'd win, together with Collector (unless all those AA cards are commons).