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primer
04-07-2014, 08:18 AM
Anyone else a little disappointed that the tourney will be constructed? With a possible draft for the top 8. I have never played constructed and have no interest in it and wouldn't know where to start apart from reading the decks that win the HTP series each month. Also if the tourney is 1 month after launch of beta I'm not sure how good of a deck I could scrape together in that time.

Xenavire
04-07-2014, 08:27 AM
Anyone else a little disappointed that the tourney will be constructed? With a possible draft for the top 8. I have never played constructed and have no interest in it and wouldn't know where to start apart from reading the decks that win the HTP series each month. Also if the tourney is 1 month after launch of beta I'm not sure how good of a deck I could scrape together in that time.

Well, I think the idea there is that 'Pro players' are pro at the whole game, and not just draft, and during the alpha, there has been a LOT more time to test constructed and learn how to play it, than there has been for draft. Add in the logistics of making a draft tournament (will the packs be free or will it be phantom? How many rounds will there be, and do we need to add rounds of drafting, or let people play the same deck the whole way through? Etc)

Constructed may not be ideal for everyone, but it is cut and dry. The logistical stuff is pretty much set out before they even start the planning - I think they have a good reason to choose it over draft.

I can understand the complaint though, but I doubt they can make everyone happy anyway.

Kroan
04-07-2014, 08:33 AM
I love drafts much more than constructed, but I always expected a constructed tournament. I'm sure it will be a blast to play in, whatever the format.

primer
04-07-2014, 08:40 AM
The thing with alpha is that everyone was spoiled by being given all the rare and legendary cards. There's little chance that you'll get a play set of any legendary card unless you're part of some big team with a lot of resources or willing to spend the money.

So what kind of deck will everyone be expecting to run in this tourney?

The only real reading on tournament decks I've seen is this: http://hextcgpro.com/a-metagame-analysis-challenge-series-preview/

Xenavire
04-07-2014, 09:03 AM
Well, everyone has a month to prepare (I dunno, this might actually be wrong - did Cory say it was from the start of Closed or Open Beta?) If trading is in, there is every opportunity to gather together the right cards - if you want to win, you invest more, same as any other tournament. However, if trading isn't implemented yet, that throws a spanner in the works. We will just have to wait and see.

But constructed will be better for most people than draft. So lets just hope everything goes smoothly.

Yoss
04-07-2014, 09:28 AM
But constructed will be better for most people that draft. So lets just hope everything goes smoothly.

I guess I'm not "most people". Seems strange to have the pro-drafter tournament be not draft.

Xenavire
04-07-2014, 09:35 AM
But it isn't the 'Pro drafter' tier. It is the 'Pro player' tier. A pro player can be anyone with a high skill level - they could even come from PvE. The perk was for draft, but that doesn't mean the tier is restricted to drafting. It is amazing that people are making that assumption.

Yoss
04-07-2014, 09:45 AM
I signed up on PP for Draft, not for Constructed. I would still have signed up even if they called it The Dung Eater tier. Only the rewards are relevant to me, not the name. Furthermore, Draft is a more effective skill discriminator than Constructed because it removes money from the equation (compared to Constructed), and has less luck (compared to Sealed).

That said, the KS notes do not say that it would be any particular format, so Constructed is just as viable a choice as anything else, contract wise. I would prefer Draft, but maybe "most people" (whoever they are) prefer Constructed.

Josua
04-07-2014, 10:04 AM
If the original intent of the tournament was to have all of the pro players battle it out on an even playing field, then I have to say that I do agree that the tournament should be draft or sealed. I'm not saying that this would be easier to set up or play (it would probably be challenging to set up in regards to phantom packs, and the drafting process would extend the length of the tournament by no small amount), but the card advantage given to some tiers would have massive benefits (I'm looking Dragon Lord and up (and maybe Grand King with the additional PVP exclusives?)).

So, I guess what it would come down to is: Is this tournament supposed to determine who the most skilled "pro players" is, or is it a tournament to see which "pro player" can make the best deck with the cards they've purchased/been rewarded/traded for?

YourOpponent
04-07-2014, 10:36 AM
I always figured that for the most part the Pro Player tournament would be constructed. I thought it would of been pretty cool though if it was something more like a Swiss tournament with it being sealed for 4 rounds or so and then take the top 128 from that for a draft tournament (on a different day probably.) From there the draft tournament is also Swiss and that is done for another 4 rounds or so and the top 32 of that goes to a best out of 3 single elimination constructed tournament.

That way it would have all three types of pvp in it and would be a more accurate description of what it means to be a pro player.

primer
04-07-2014, 10:57 AM
If the original intent of the tournament was to have all of the pro players battle it out on an even playing field, then I have to say that I do agree that the tournament should be draft or sealed.

I agree with this, I imagine most people are tapped out paying $250+. I certainly wont be able to afford a constructed deck to play with.

Ali3nSan
04-07-2014, 01:59 PM
From the point of view of only having so many cards to build a deck from once we get our KS rewards I agree a draft tournament makes more sense.

However I am certainly no pro player and constructed would let me build a deck from the many many decks available online. So I should at least have a deck that could win a game at least :)

Still figuring out how to better my deck building skills with every loss :)

Xenavire
04-07-2014, 02:04 PM
Well, considering every Pro player and higher will have over 150 boosters off the bat, even without trading it will be possible to make a reasonable deck. Maybe not filled to the brim with legendary cards, but a stable and playable deck.

Of course, I am aware that a lot of people will be saving boosters/selling them, but you also have the option to use your 4 weeks of free drafts, plus your 3 free drafts from the stretch goals, to get the staple cards for a decent deck. It would take some smart drafting of course, but it would be perfectly possible.

Yoss
04-07-2014, 02:17 PM
In other words, you admit to the issue of money as a restriction, and then offer work-arounds. :)

Why not just solve the problem rather than work around it? Draft solves the problem (and is more fun to boot).

It does introduce more singles into the market, but that's a much lesser problem. There are ~2048 PP. If you weed out 6/8 at each round, it will be over at the 5th round (256 tables round 1, 64 round 2, 16 round 3, 4 round 4, 1 round 5), consuming (giving away, if you will) 8184 opened boosters. That's a mere 4 packs per player, roughly the same as one week of free drafts from those same draft-for-lifers, a drop in the proverbial bucket. The King tier alone will dump over half a million packs into the supply.

Thraeg
04-07-2014, 02:18 PM
Yeah, I plan to draft with all my boosters rather than opening them to make constructed decks, so I would have preferred a limited format event, but am not surprised that it's going to be constructed.

Xenavire
04-07-2014, 02:20 PM
In other words, you admit to the issue of money as a restriction, and then offer work-arounds. :)

Why not just solve the problem rather than work around it? Draft solves the problem (and is more fun to boot).

It does introduce more singles into the market, but that's a much lesser problem. There are ~2048 PP. If you weed out 6/8 at each round, it will be over at the 5th round (256 tables round 1, 64 round 2, 16 round 3, 4 round 4, 1 round 5), consuming (giving away, if you will) 8184 opened boosters. That's a mere 4 packs per player, roughly the same as one week of free drafts from those same draft-for-lifers, a drop in the proverbial bucket. The King tier alone will dump over half a million packs into the supply.

I am offering workarounds because that is what has been confirmed right now. And I offered a possible explanation as to why draft wasn't selected.

I never said it shouldn't ever be changed - but if this is how CZE goes, I would like the overall impact of it lessened with everyone using any workarounds they need to in order to have a fighting chance. I assume being a pro player doesn't really count for much if 90% of the competition only opened 5 boosters compared to your 50, etc. I wouldn't find that very exciting.

I kinda wish non-pro players could participate though. I quite like constructed.

dogmod
04-07-2014, 02:22 PM
I would highly prefer a limited format. Especially with the timing they are talking about. I don't think even if they made it a draft format and let people keep the cards that that would have a significant impact on cards as Yoss's data suggests. Also the condescension in Xenavire's posts are a bit much

Xenavire
04-07-2014, 02:24 PM
I would highly prefer a limited format. Especially with the timing they are talking about. I don't think even if they made it a draft format and let people keep the cards that that would have a significant impact on cards as Yoss's data suggests. Also the condescension in Xenavire's posts are a bit much

Sorry if I am coming across that way - I am trying to be helpful, as odd as it might seem. I can see why some people prefer limited, I really do, but I don't think that CZE intended the tier to be 'The draft tier', but more the 'All rounder' tier.

I can stop offering advice and theory's though if it is upsetting anyone.

Yoss
04-07-2014, 02:27 PM
I am offering workarounds because that is what has been confirmed right now. And I offered a possible explanation as to why draft wasn't selected.
Fair enough.


I assume being a pro player doesn't really count for much if 90% of the competition only opened 5 boosters compared to your 50, etc. I wouldn't find that very exciting.
I'm planning to hold and/or draft my packs, not just open them to prepare for a tournament, so yeah, I'll be in that "only opened 15 group" going up against the "opened 150" group (scaled your numbers up to more realistic given that we're all getting free drafts per week). Not exactly "fair" if the goal is to find the best player rather than the best player with money. Then again, maybe the market will be flooded enough that a tier 1 deck for the PP tournament will cost under $20, in which case it's not so terrible.

Xenavire
04-07-2014, 02:32 PM
Fair enough.


I'm planning to hold and/or draft my packs, not just open them to prepare for a tournament, so yeah, I'll be in that "only opened 15 group" going up against the "opened 150" group (scaled your numbers up to more realistic given that we're all getting free drafts per week). Not exactly "fair" if the goal is to find the best player rather than the best player with money. Then again, maybe the market will be flooded enough that a tier 1 deck for the PP tournament will cost under $20, in which case it's not so terrible.

I sincerely hope the cards are cheaper so that there are no issues, but I am worried that the AH won't be up and running by that time - I am being a little pessimistic about that though, and probably shouldn't be. I am also hoping that guilds will work together and help out the people entering (even if the guild framework isn't in yet) to mitigate more of the trouble. I would personally lend cards to anyone I thought was trustworthy, and I doubt I am the only one, so hopefully the community pulls together and lends a hand for this one of a kind tourney.

Silent
04-07-2014, 03:20 PM
Just delay the tournament and stick with constructed or change it to limited. Thats my take on it. Having 3-4 weeks after we get our rewards is ridiculous. At least in my humble opinion. I'm certainly not going to waste my packs by simply opening them, even though I got more than 1 Pro Player Tier and thus a few hundred packs. I'll draft as much as possible and hope for the best, I guess. Definitively not what I was expecting of this tournament.

icyangelus
04-07-2014, 05:22 PM
You guys have to remember this is not only their game but their buissness, CZE have to play it out in a way that is profitable for them they cannot just bend over to our every wish and demand. I think the tier is already ridiculously good so yeah if they wanna do it constructed i'm ok with it.

Mike411
04-07-2014, 06:34 PM
I wish it was draft or sealed as well. But oh well :)

funktion
04-07-2014, 08:02 PM
Skimmed over this fairly quickly, all I have to say is:

If you're opening packs so that you can build one specific constructed deck... you're doing it wrong.

Edit: realized I had more to say. You're also talking about the cost to build a deck being too overwhelming... if it is higher than 40 to build ANY deck I'll be amazed. Yet every single person who will play in this tournament at the bare minimum spent $250 to do so. I don't think those people on average are going to have a hard time finding pennies beneath the couch cusions so that they can build a deck.

Xenavire
04-07-2014, 08:14 PM
Skimmed over this fairly quickly, all I have to say is:

If you're opening packs so that you can build one specific constructed deck... you're doing it wrong.

Edit: realized I had more to say. You're also talking about the cost to build a deck being too overwhelming... if it is higher than 40 to build ANY deck I'll be amazed. Yet every single person who will play in this tournament at the bare minimum spent $250 to do so. I don't think those people on average are going to have a hard time finding pennies beneath the couch cusions so that they can build a deck.

I just want to say, the pack cracking mention was me and my worry that the AH won't be functioning yet, same with trading. If either one is working, then the pack cracking comment is void and very useless advice. Although drafting is better than cracking anyway.

Ebynfel
04-08-2014, 06:45 AM
Honestly, I always figured it would be constructed. Basically it'll be the "Standard Format" tournament opener. It'll be the first big payout, and historically in other games constructed has always been the premiere tournament format. That all notwithstanding, hopefully everyone has a chance to field their deck of choice.

I understand the want to have it as a limited format, but honestly rather than money being the barrier, RNG could be(esp if sealed). When it comes down to it, I want to win it. I don't think I have the skills and haven't had the time to play to build any in quite some time. So that said, I don't care what the format is. It's a "Free" tourney(I dont HAVE to pay more than the 250 I already did), and it has some pretty huge rewards. I'm in. Either way.

Kroan
04-08-2014, 07:41 AM
Where did we get that this is 4 weeks after closed beta start? I think I missed that, can someone quote/link me?

Nekrabyte
04-08-2014, 07:48 AM
constructed will always be my favorite tournament type.... drafts are fun and all, but i wouldn't even do them at all if afterwards i was just gonna let my cards sit there. i do drafts so that i can get a solid constructed base going, and then search out the few cards i need to make all it come together.

Ebynfel
04-08-2014, 07:53 AM
Where did we get that this is 4 weeks after closed beta start? I think I missed that, can someone quote/link me?

I want to say it was mentioned in the interview with Cory on the 1st.

Kroan
04-08-2014, 07:56 AM
I want to say it was mentioned in the interview with Cory on the 1st.

I must have overheard it then. You sure it was closed beta, and not just (open) beta? (I honestly have no idea, just trying to figure out if this is a rumor or a confirmed thing.)

Ebynfel
04-08-2014, 08:02 AM
I don't believe he was 100% certain when it would happen. He did say constructed for sure, and he gave a rough timeframe of "so many weeks after KS rewards." iirc.

jtatta
04-08-2014, 08:09 AM
When Neo and I asked Cory about the Pro Player tournament, he said that it would likely being during release rather than beta. I may have misunderstood, and don't have time to go back through, but I'm fairly certain that he said release as that is something that I was interested in.

That said, saying that you're "tapped out" after spending $250 on a PP tier is not relevant to the discussion at all. The Kickstarter was nearly an entire year ago. Maybe I'm little off on the date but that's not relevant either. I don't think that you make exactly $250 a year and can't possibly afford to spend another $50.00 (if you want to save all of your packs) to buy some rares that your missing from the AH, various online stores, wherever. Any self respecting gamer who wants to be competitive will do whatever it takes to build the deck that they want. They might borrow cards but most of the time they'll just buy some singles. That's just how it is. If you think Hex is any different then you're wrong. That doesn't mean it's pay to win, that doesn't mean that people with more money are on an uneven playing field, that's the nature of TCGs. You had to have known this before getting involved with Hex.

Constructed events are certainly more entertaining to watch/follow and the preferred format for MOST competitive players. While draft would be cool for a large event, logistically it doesn't make a lot of sense and is basically just players saying, "Hi, I backed your game, I'd like more free things."

[Edit: I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my post but it doesn't make any sense that money should be a factor in even the slightest when everyone in this event backed the game for AT LEAST $250.00 USD]

- John

Ebynfel
04-08-2014, 08:10 AM
Alright, looked it up. He said it could be 30 days after monetized Beta. Also, they're not sure o nthe timeframe just yet, and wants to afford people time to feel out the meta and get their legs under them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9TsHWtT2-w
talk about it starts at around the 31 minute mark


Edit:
Also, what Mr Tatta said

jtatta
04-08-2014, 08:11 AM
Alright, looked it up. He said it could be 30 days after monetized Beta. Also, they're not sure o nthe timeframe just yet, and wants to afford people time to feel out the meta and get their legs under them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9TsHWtT2-w
talk about it starts at around the 31 minute mark

Thanks for taking the time to find that.

Kroan
04-08-2014, 08:14 AM
Alright, looked it up. He said it could be 30 days after monetized Beta. Also, they're not sure o nthe timeframe just yet, and wants to afford people time to feel out the meta and get their legs under them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9TsHWtT2-w
talk about it starts at around the 31 minute mark


Edit:
Also, what Mr Tatta said
Thanks. Good to know. Gives me an idea and the ability to plan ahead for it :)

Ebynfel
04-08-2014, 08:14 AM
Thanks for taking the time to find that.

No Problem

dogmod
04-08-2014, 09:18 AM
When Neo and I asked Cory about the Pro Player tournament, he said that it would likely being during release rather than beta. I may have misunderstood, and don't have time to go back through, but I'm fairly certain that he said release as that is something that I was interested in.

That said, saying that you're "tapped out" after spending $250 on a PP tier is not relevant to the discussion at all. The Kickstarter was nearly an entire year ago. Maybe I'm little off on the date but that's not relevant either. I don't think that you make exactly $250 a year and can't possibly afford to spend another $50.00 (if you want to save all of your packs) to buy some rares that your missing from the AH, various online stores, wherever. Any self respecting gamer who wants to be competitive will do whatever it takes to build the deck that they want. They might borrow cards but most of the time they'll just buy some singles. That's just how it is. If you think Hex is any different then you're wrong. That doesn't mean it's pay to win, that doesn't mean that people with more money are on an uneven playing field, that's the nature of TCGs. You had to have known this before getting involved with Hex.

Constructed events are certainly more entertaining to watch/follow and the preferred format for MOST competitive players. While draft would be cool for a large event, logistically it doesn't make a lot of sense and is basically just players saying, "Hi, I backed your game, I'd like more free things."

[Edit: I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my post but it doesn't make any sense that money should be a factor in even the slightest when everyone in this event backed the game for AT LEAST $250.00 USD]

- John

Money is always a factor. If you bought dinner and then they charged you for a plate and said "Well you already spent money on dinner so doesn't seem to us like much point in arguing about us also charging you for the plate?"

That is a bit tongue in cheek but it is essentially the same point. Also saying that anyone that disagrees with you isn't a "self-respecting gamer" is rude and also just poor logic.

That being said if you want to argue that the tournament will be a better advertisement to Hex or better for casting if they do it constructed as opposed to draft is a reasonable argument.

I find draft more entertaining and a more level playing field than constructed and that is why I would prefer the tournament be done in that format. That is my opinion and my reasons.

jtatta
04-08-2014, 09:28 AM
Money is always a factor. If you bought dinner and then they charged you for a plate and said "Well you already spent money on dinner so doesn't seem to us like much point in arguing about us also charging you for the plate?"

That is a bit tongue in cheek but it is essentially the same point. Also saying that anyone that disagrees with you isn't a "self-respecting gamer" is rude and also just poor logic.

That being said if you want to argue that the tournament will be a better advertisement to Hex or better for casting if they do it constructed as opposed to draft is a reasonable argument.

I find draft more entertaining and a more level playing field than constructed and that is why I would prefer the tournament be done in that format. That is my opinion and my reasons.

COMPETITIVE gamer is different from your average gamer. Apparently for Hex, it's drastically different.

Your argument doesn't really make sense to me either. We bought dinner from CZE. We're just waiting on it to be cooked. When they deliver it to your table you have the right to say "No thanks, I'm going to take this home and pick at it for a few weeks" but you can't turn around and complain that you didn't get a full course meal.

My point is that you HAVE the cards to build a competitive deck. Saying that you can't afford it doesn't make any sense.

- John

dogmod
04-08-2014, 10:20 AM
COMPETITIVE gamer is different from your average gamer. Apparently for Hex, it's drastically different.

Your argument doesn't really make sense to me either. We bought dinner from CZE. We're just waiting on it to be cooked. When they deliver it to your table you have the right to say "No thanks, I'm going to take this home and pick at it for a few weeks" but you can't turn around and complain that you didn't get a full course meal.

My point is that you HAVE the cards to build a competitive deck. Saying that you can't afford it doesn't make any sense.

- John

This is why analogies fall apart on the internet. People always take the analogy in a random direction and then feel like they have won the argument because they have perverted an analogy in a way that supports their logic as opposed to arguing with the underlying logic.

We will all have cards to make a deck. People are arguing that if the tournament is constructed that they will feel that they are at a disadvantage if they do not spend more money to obtain a tier 1 deck. Some people feel that cost to build that deck will be prohibitive. They feel that the tournament would be more to their liking if that element was removed.

Saying that these people aren't "competitive gamers" or "self-respecting gamers" does not invalidate their feelings. IMPLYING that they are cheap or poor and thus their opinions don't apply also does not invalidate their feelings.

I think the points you made about constructed being a more representative tournament for how the competitive scene will play out in the future is true. I also think that it will be better for casting/fans/etc.

I disagree with your logic and your personal attacks.

Kroan
04-08-2014, 10:26 AM
I'm getting hungry

jtatta
04-08-2014, 10:35 AM
This is why analogies fall apart on the internet. People always take the analogy in a random direction and then feel like they have won the argument because they have perverted an analogy in a way that supports their logic as opposed to arguing with the underlying logic.

We will all have cards to make a deck. People are arguing that if the tournament is constructed that they will feel that they are at a disadvantage if they do not spend more money to obtain a tier 1 deck. Some people feel that cost to build that deck will be prohibitive. They feel that the tournament would be more to their liking if that element was removed.

Saying that these people aren't "competitive gamers" or "self-respecting gamers" does not invalidate their feelings. IMPLYING that they are cheap or poor and thus their opinions don't apply also does not invalidate their feelings.

I think the points you made about constructed being a more representative tournament for how the competitive scene will play out in the future is true. I also think that it will be better for casting/fans/etc.

I disagree with your logic and your personal attacks.

I did not unleash any personal attacks. If anything I made a generalization which is far from a personal attack. You can interpret things however you want but you might want to read back through this thread and read what the complaints have been like.

I'm not wrong.

- John

noragar
04-08-2014, 10:36 AM
OK, while we're on the subject of dinner analogies. How about this one:

It's like going into a restaurant and getting a full 5-course steak and lobster meal for $1.99, then complaining that it only comes with a soft drink and if you want an alcoholic beverage instead, you need to pay a little bit more.

primer
04-08-2014, 10:57 AM
That said, saying that you're "tapped out" after spending $250 on a PP tier is not relevant to the discussion at all. The Kickstarter was nearly an entire year ago. Maybe I'm little off on the date but that's not relevant either. I don't think that you make exactly $250 a year and can't possibly afford to spend another $50.00 (if you want to save all of your packs) to buy some rares that your missing from the AH, various online stores, wherever.

You don't know my situation or the situation of anyone else. People save up to buy things, lose jobs and a whole load of other things. You don't know how long it took someone to get $250 never mind if they can spend $50 to play in a one off tourney.

I guess you and your big guild will be fine for the tourney though. And let me guess your website will sell me all the cards I need right?

Oh and this line...


Any self respecting gamer who wants to be competitive will do whatever it takes to build the deck that they want.

dogmod
04-08-2014, 10:59 AM
I did not unleash any personal attacks. If anything I made a generalization which is far from a personal attack. You can interpret things however you want but you might want to read back through this thread and read what the complaints have been like.

I'm not wrong.

- John

If you are attacking people whether it be a single person or a group of people with generalizations or specific attack you are making personal attacks instead of arguing against their ideas.

Xenavire
04-08-2014, 11:04 AM
You don't know my situation or the situation of anyone else. People save up to buy things, lose jobs and a whole load of other things. You don't know how long it took someone to get $250 never mind if they can spend $50 to play in a one off tourney.

I guess you and your big guild will be fine for the tourney though. And let me guess your website will sell me all the cards I need right?

Oh and this line...

Any player who is now in a dire financial position did have the opportunity for a refund, and they probably should have used it. They also will have a stockpile of boosters to open, or to sell to buy singles.

Anyone who retained their pro tier does have enough resources to build a deck, end of story. I don't care if it is efficient, it is just a fact that they have the resources.

jtatta
04-08-2014, 11:04 AM
You don't know my situation or the situation of anyone else. People save up to buy things, lose jobs and a whole load of other things. You don't know how long it took someone to get $250 never mind if they can spend $50 to play in a one off tourney.

I guess you and your big guild will be fine for the tourney though. And let me guess your website will sell me all the cards I need right?

Look, I get it. I run a big fancy website. I'm in the public eye. A lot. But I have opinions on matters as well. You can disagree with me, like many do, but I'm not going to just ignore matters that are worth discussing.

"Me and my big guild" has nothing to do with this debate. You clearly know nothing about my "big guild" or me as a person so we'll just pretend that you never said that. As for your sarcastic comment about us selling you cards, you're welcome to acquire cards from where you'd like for whatever price you'd like to acquire them for. If my website happens to be where you acquire them, then awesome.

That said, don't try to pull one over on me. It's not important how much money someone makes so don't try to make it about that. My point was that YOU are the one who backed the game for X amount. Build a deck with the cards you have. If you want to draft with them then you don't really have a valid argument as to why you don't have a deck to play in the Pro Player tournament.

primer
04-08-2014, 11:13 AM
Look, I get it. I run a big fancy website. I'm in the public eye. A lot. But I have opinions on matters as well. You can disagree with me, like many do, but I'm not going to just ignore matters that are worth discussing.

"Me and my big guild" has nothing to do with this debate. You clearly know nothing about my "big guild" or me as a person so we'll just pretend that you never said that. As for your sarcastic comment about us selling you cards, you're welcome to acquire cards from where you'd like for whatever price you'd like to acquire them for. If my website happens to be where you acquire them, then awesome.

That said, don't try to pull one over on me. It's not important how much money someone makes so don't try to make it about that. My point was that YOU are the one who backed the game for X amount. Build a deck with the cards you have. If you want to draft with them then you don't really have a valid argument as to why you don't have a deck to play in the Pro Player tournament.

Your right, I'm just not a 'self respecting gamer' who's sorry to take up your important time.

jtatta
04-08-2014, 11:27 AM
Your right, I'm just not a 'self respecting gamer' who's sorry to take up your important time.

If that's the part about my argument that you want to quote, that's your choice. Clearly I upset you. I'm sorry. It's the internet and stuff.

I'm going to bow out of this as people simply can't grasp certain important concepts and look past some specific things. Nobody is gaining anything from this. My point still stands that nobody can feasibly argue that they won't have the cards to build a deck if they backed at this level. Still waiting for someone to prove me wrong.

mujrim
04-08-2014, 11:30 AM
There is a lot of butthurt in the last few pages, but no one has really refuted the base premise that if are in this tournament you easily have the means to produce a competitive deck just from the tier rewards.

I don't get what people are so upset about. Is having one more draft that important? You will still have a ton of drafts to prove how amazing of a card drafted you are. Constructed has traditionally been the gold standard for top level events. I don't see why hex's inaugural headline event would be anything else.

primer
04-08-2014, 11:30 AM
If that's the part about my argument that you want to quote, that's your choice. Clearly I upset you. I'm sorry. It's the internet and stuff.

I'm going to bow out of this as people simply can't grasp certain important concepts and look past some specific things. Nobody is gaining anything from this. My point still stands that nobody can feasibly argue that they won't have the cards to build a deck if they backed at this level. Still waiting for someone to prove me wrong.

I wont have the cards. When the beta starts I will be playing my 3 free drafts and then my free draft per week. That is all.

ossuary
04-08-2014, 11:35 AM
I really don't get this. If you have a free draft for life, why the hell wouldn't you just open all of your initial free packs to build your deck for the big, important tournament? There's absolutely no reason to hold on to them. You've got more access to cards than anyone else. Saying you "won't have the cards" is entirely a self-inflicted problem. This is the ultimate in first world problems. :p

jtatta
04-08-2014, 11:46 AM
I wont have the cards. When the beta starts I will be playing my 3 free drafts and then my free draft per week. That is all.

I know that I said I'd stay out of this but this part makes no sense to me.

What happened to all the packs you're getting from backing?

Yoss
04-08-2014, 11:46 AM
I'll have the cards, assuming the AH is live for a sufficient amount of time first. I just would rather play Draft. I have more fun in Draft. It also requires less of my precious time, because I do not have to research as much ahead of the event. I also think it requires more skill. Side benefit is money is mitigated as an issue (if it is one).

Xenavire
04-08-2014, 11:47 AM
I wont have the cards. When the beta starts I will be playing my 3 free drafts and then my free draft per week. That is all.

So what is your motivation for keeping the packs? I would assume one of two main reasons - first we have more drafts. You already have plenty free. So I think this is a poor reason, in this circumstance.

The second is wanting to hold the packs so they gain value, to resell later. This is valid, but we have no idea how much they will be worth, or how long they will take to become valuable.

So you have to weigh both of those up against the chance to win a one of a kind tournament that potentially has insane prizes. Cory mentioned they might even give away the entire first set (or was it every set?) as a prize. That is a lot more value if you win, than a few boosters that you could turn into a decent deck.

If I missed something, please, fill me in, but I am seeing this as you wanting to have cake and eat it too rather than having a genuine issue.

hammer
04-08-2014, 11:48 AM
Hey at least you all get a chance to play in the first large official hex tournament, free of charge, with expected awesome prizes. Pro/Grand King is/was already the best tiers and this extra exclusive perk is the cherry on top yet still people complain..

primer
04-08-2014, 11:48 AM
I really don't get this. If you have a free draft for life, why the hell wouldn't you just open all of your initial free packs to build your deck for the big, important tournament? There's absolutely no reason to hold on to them. You've got more access to cards than anyone else. Saying you "won't have the cards" is entirely a self-inflicted problem. This is the ultimate in first world problems. :p

The reason I wont be opening all my packs for the tourney is mainly value. Secondly I will be drafting those packs away, just not in the first month of monetized beta. My point still stands; why would I drop $40-50-60 however much on a deck I'll be playing once? I'll likely just skip the tourney or play for lols and be a bye.

dogmod
04-08-2014, 11:51 AM
I'm going to bow out of this as people simply can't grasp certain important concepts and look past some specific things.

Really can't help yourself with the personal attacks. Now we are stupid.

Yoss
04-08-2014, 11:51 AM
From KS:

Kickstarter exclusive tournament for the Pro Player tier (this reward may happen after Sep 2013). Grand Prize for the tournament: 4 of every card at release.

So yes, we know what the prize is, at least in general terms. I guess we could ask things like: Which sets are included? Does it include PvE?

primer
04-08-2014, 11:51 AM
Cory mentioned they might even give away the entire first set (or was it every set?) as a prize. That is a lot more value if you win, than a few boosters that you could turn into a decent deck.


I'm smart enough to know I wont be winning any sort of big tourney. Luck might get me a few games but I've never played any sort of tcg, never mind competitively.

Xenavire
04-08-2014, 11:53 AM
The reason I wont be opening all my packs for the tourney is mainly value. Secondly I will be drafting those packs away, just not in the first month of monetized beta. My point still stands; why would I drop $40-50-60 however much on a deck I'll be playing once? I'll likely just skip the tourney or play for lols and be a bye.

You obviously underestimate resale value. If you manage to win, those winning cards might go for $10+ per card, thanks to the double back. I don't know if they will have double back trophies for placing, but any place will make the cards worth more. And even without an achievement, as we move forward in open beta and more players come in, and single card is going to slowly increase in value compared to the first month.

It isn't just throwing away money, it is making an investment that will pay off once at least, possibly twice.

jtatta
04-08-2014, 11:54 AM
Really can't help yourself with the personal attacks. Now we are stupid.

LOL. If you want to quote me on things that I say on forums and try to twist them, you won't have to work very hard as I'm very opinionated. I also think that you can block me, which is something that maybe you should look in to since I'm so offensive to you. That said, you're acting a little childish right now. I'm sure that you'll take that as a personal attack too though. Sorry!

Xenavire
04-08-2014, 11:56 AM
I'm smart enough to know I wont be winning any sort of big tourney. Luck might get me a few games but I've never played any sort of tcg, never mind competitively.

You have time to learn. With the set just finished, and the balance changes this week, people will be relearning things. This gives you an opportunity to catch up - you severely underestimate yourself if you think you can't do well with a little practice.

primer
04-08-2014, 11:59 AM
You have time to learn. With the set just finished, and the balance changes this week, people will be relearning things. This gives you an opportunity to catch up - you severely underestimate yourself if you think you can't do well with a little practice.

Perhaps I could surprise myself, but its the driver that wins the race not the car. Also I've got little interest in constructed. Yes I realise a 'pro player' is a master of all formats but I'm happy with just playing limited and not very well at that :p

dogmod
04-08-2014, 12:14 PM
LOL. If you want to quote me on things that I say on forums and try to twist them, you won't have to work very hard as I'm very opinionated. I also think that you can block me, which is something that maybe you should look in to since I'm so offensive to you. That said, you're acting a little childish right now. I'm sure that you'll take that as a personal attack too though. Sorry!

I just found it interesting that in my last post in our actual argument you didn't disagree with anything in my post until the part where I said you made personal attacks.(The last 2 words in my post) And then in the next 3 or 4 posts you made personal attacks in nearly every post. And also as a representative of what I imagine you are hoping is a successful business I think it is poor practice to make personal attacks on forums as it reflects poorly not only on you but on your business.

I would still prefer that the tournament be draft as I find it more interesting and more enjoyable to play. I think that there are people that will feel that they are at a disadvantage in the tournament as they won't be able to get all of the legendaries or rares they need without resorting to the auction house even if they were to open all of their own packs. And I think that feeling is perfectly valid. Does that mean Cryptozoic should change the format of the tournament for them? No, not particularly. But if they are considering it then I think they could include that in their calculus. Just as they could weigh the benefits of the increased watchability and interest that a constructed tournament would provide.

jtatta
04-08-2014, 12:18 PM
I just found it interesting that in my last post in our actual argument you didn't disagree with anything in my post until the part where I said you made personal attacks.(The last 2 words in my post) And then in the next 3 or 4 posts you made personal attacks in nearly every post. And also as a representative of what I imagine you are hoping is a successful business I think it is poor practice to make personal attacks on forums as it reflects poorly not only on you but on your business.

I would still prefer that the tournament be draft as I find it more interesting and more enjoyable to play. I think that there are people that will feel that they are at a disadvantage in the tournament as they won't be able to get all of the legendaries or rares they need without resorting to the auction house even if they were to open all of their own packs. And I think that feeling is perfectly valid. Does that mean Cryptozoic should change the format of the tournament for them? No, not particularly. But if they are considering it then I think they could include that in their calculus. Just as they could weigh the benefits of the increased watchability and interest that a constructed tournament would provide.

That's because I didn't disagree with anything that you said until the personal attack part.

I still don't feel like I've personally attacked anyone. /shrug People just get butt hurt on the internet when someone disagrees with them. Also, is it a personal attack if it's the truth? Semantics.

primer
04-08-2014, 12:29 PM
And also as a representative of what I imagine you are hoping is a successful business I think it is poor practice to make personal attacks on forums as it reflects poorly not only on you but on your business.


Wise words.

dogmod
04-08-2014, 12:34 PM
That's because I didn't disagree with anything that you said until the personal attack part.

I still don't feel like I've personally attacked anyone. /shrug People just get butt hurt on the internet when someone disagrees with them. Also, is it a personal attack if it's the truth? Semantics.

Yes it is. If someone is being a whiny sniveling brat but buried in their whiny sniveling bratness they make a valid point and all you focus on in their argument is their personal characteristics without addressing the logic of their argument then you are making a poor defense of yourself while at the same time reflecting poorly on yourself.

I also find some of the entitlement and whining on this board annoying and grating and have even succumbed to attacking people personally in the past. (And probably in that last sentence) But making vague statements or saying that people that disagree with you "just can't comprehend" or "just don't seem to get it" ARE personal attacks and do reflect poorly on the person saying them whether or not everyone actually catches the implied meaning.

I am a big fan of the website regardless of how I have been responding to your posts and hope that you can be successful and a vocal community member without resorting to personal attacks (not to mention the inherent logical fallacies carried within that). In the long run Hex will be built on not only the way that Cryptozoic deals with things but also with how the community they have fostered and the community leaders act. You may think I am nitpicking you but you have put yourself in a position to be nitpicked and if you don't realize that you soon will if Hex blows up like we all think/hope it will.

Anyways, keep up the awesome work and I hope that you guys run a piece on value decks that people can use to enter the tournament or even just for 1v1s in the training ground. Now that would be a pretty strong argument in your favor if you could point to near tier 1 decks that most anyone could build on the cheap or even just from commons/uncommons easily available in draft.

End diatribe

Yoss
04-08-2014, 12:42 PM
I hope that you guys run a piece on value decks that people can use to enter the tournament or even just for 1v1s in the training ground. Now that would be a pretty strong argument in your favor if you could point to near tier 1 decks that most anyone could build on the cheap or even just from commons/uncommons easily available in draft.

Then build the perfect counter to the deck you've told everyone to build and mop the floor with them. :p

stiii
04-08-2014, 01:13 PM
I wonder what world dogmod is living in where Jtatta is making personal attacks but he isn't.

Errantsquire
04-08-2014, 03:49 PM
It would seem to me that there is some complaint about different formats being more or less cost effective, and wanting to be a competitive player but not having the funds to support that aspiration. I would say that in the world of doing anything competitive there will always be a price to pay. People that aspire to be the best will give their time, money, and sometimes more and that is what can set them apart from others. In my own experience I found the cost of being a competitive magic player to be to high which is why I'm playing this game and I back it so heavily. I have other priorities in my life now, church, family, wife, friends etc..... I've already accepted that I will be a good Hex player, but the sacrifice that I'd have to make to be the "best" or "one of the best" is out of reach, but I'm ok with that because I'm happy with doing a weekly show and giving back to the community.

That being said IMO there will always be room for the best constructed players and the best limited players in the game however both of these things will cost money, time, and possibly other sacrifices. I would say that if someone cannot or will not make those sacrifices then they will have a very hard time keeping up much less staying competitive.