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View Full Version : Rules Question - How Should Infinite Loops be Treated?



Showsni
04-20-2014, 12:06 PM
Now, in M:tG should the game get into an infinite loop rule 421 or 716 kicks in; and in the case of a loop with only mandatory actions, 421.4/716.4 forces the game to end in a draw. Hex currently has no implementation for such an eventuality, or at least none that I've noticed. Consider the following situation:

There are no cards in play. I play Solitary Exile. I play a second Solitary Exile. I play a third Solitary Exile.

The game is now in a mandatory infinite loop - my Exile leaves play, returning an Exile, which Exiles the in play Exile, causing it to bring back another Exile... etc. Unless someone plays Quick Action speed removal (Time Ripple, Nature's Reign, etc.) I'll be stuck choosing Exile as a target forever; or until the clock runs down.

This is obviously far from ideal. So, how do you think the game should handle such a state? Should it force a draw after the loop has been run through a certain number of times? Is such a thing even possible? What if one or other player does have the Time Ripple in hand; should they be forced to play it? Can the client recognise they're capable of breaking the loop if they wish? Should the game end in a draw? Should I lose for causing the looping game state to begin with? Should we be forced to play to time?

It's a corner case, granted; but as we're moving to monetised Beta I believe it's important to sort out an answer. Imagine if someone did this to you in a draft you'd paid for, after getting slightly ahead on the clock. Then you're forced to sit for 50 minutes clicking as fast as possbile only to lose to time? That doesn't seem fair.

Malakili
04-20-2014, 12:09 PM
What currently happens in that case?

LargoLaGrande
04-20-2014, 12:19 PM
What currently happens in that case?

On MODO? It crashes the game. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AGXG5rNe_tI#t=163)

Showsni
04-20-2014, 12:22 PM
What currently happens in that case?

Hex doesn't auto target like MODO seems to, so you have to physcially click the target each time. When I did it against the AI, my clock wasn't actually going down, and the AI one was (no idea why) so it looks like I could have actually won the game to time if I'd been bored enough to wait around. Haven't tried doing it against a human opponent, but you could if you want to test it.

YourOpponent
04-20-2014, 05:29 PM
There does need to be something sorted out on this for PvE. However on PvP there is an option the opposing player can do so that they just auto-pass priority for that...which would lead to your time going down while their time doesn't.

Yoss
04-20-2014, 11:10 PM
Examples like the one in the OP should be handled just like Oblivion Ring in MTG: you create a card-specific ruling to catch it. In this particular case, the game should detect the condition (should be easy) and then at each player's next priority prompt that player to give them the option to break the loop (if they can) or accept a draw.

noragar
04-21-2014, 07:21 AM
What does it mean to have a draw? Not an issue for casual play. Only a minor inconvenience for a multi-round swiss tournament as draws can be included in the standings as half a win and half a loss.

If you're in a single elimination tournament and your match finishes 1-1-1, which player moves on to the next round?

If you're playing PvE and have a draw do you get the loot drop and get to move on (in which case a draw = a win) or do you need to replay (in which case a draw = a loss). Or do you get half the rewards for a draw (what do I do with half a helmet?)

To me the main reason that running out of cards equals a game loss instead of being allowed to continue with only the cards in hand is so that if the board becomes stalemated, there would still be a winner instead of a draw as someone would need to run out of cards first.

I agree with the resolution being card-specific depending on how the loop came about. In the specific case of the three Solitary Exiles, the player who created the loop should be the one to lose the game.

wolzarg
04-21-2014, 09:43 AM
If you go 1-1-1 in single elimination in magic you play a 4th game. If this is also a draw you both lose and the opponent of your match in the next round gets a bye.