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f5shooter
04-20-2014, 06:17 PM
In a casual draft tournament, eight players provide 3 packs each. The rewards are paid out based on wins for a total of 12 packs returned.

In a sealed tournament, eight players provide 6 packs each. The rewards are paid out based on wins for a total of 12 packs returned.

Does that seem correct?

With twice as many packs opened/sold, should the payouts reflect the higher investment?

Xenavire
04-20-2014, 06:22 PM
You keep the contents of the pack, so I actually don't know if you would deserve more packs on that basis - the 12 packs is generated from the entry fee of 100 plat (so CZE are actually giving away packs really cheap).

Feel free to correct me if my assumptions are wrong here.

f5shooter
04-20-2014, 06:27 PM
In draft you also keep the contents you drafted... Meaning you brought/provided 3 packs and kept 45 cards. In Sealed, I think the payouts should be doubled, since we are buying (providing) twice as many packs.

Xenavire
04-20-2014, 07:00 PM
But you don't lose anything in either version - the only thing that changes is how many packs you sink into it - you get the correct amount of cards back.

The entry fee is identical - 100 plat. Thats where the prize support comes from, not the packs brought in. Otherwise, sealed would be generating more free packs - everyone would simply go open their packs there instead of in draft. Open 6 of your packs, and pay 100 plat to get a shot at double the packs you would get in draft?

Like I said, I am not sure that bringing more packs to the table means that you should walk away with more packs if you win - you are not losing anything except the 100 plat fee.

ZillahEnoch
04-20-2014, 07:02 PM
As Xenavire said, I think you should see it as "in both cases each player provides $1 worth of entry fees, so in both cases the rewards are the same".

But I can see your point that it is definitely more worth it to open our boosters in draft than it is in Sealed.

hex_colin
04-20-2014, 07:03 PM
In draft you also keep the contents you drafted... Meaning you brought/provided 3 packs and kept 45 cards. In Sealed, I think the payouts should be doubled, since we are buying (providing) twice as many packs.

You get to keep the contents of the packs anyway. Only your entry fee is money you can potentially "lose". All tournaments (for now anyway) require the same entry fee so you'd expect the same quantity of prizes. As it is, CZE is providing additional free value (at 3:1!). You want more? That doesn't seem reasonable. As it is, CZE should be charging more for that sort of prize support.

f5shooter
04-20-2014, 07:30 PM
I think you guys are looking at it with "KS" packs in mind. Packs used in tournaments are NOT free. The "prize" does not come from the $1 entry fee alone.

Let's assume 8 players, brand new to Hex are entering these two tournaments.

Draft
8 players BUY 3 packs each and pay the $1 entry fee.
$7 each at a total investment to CZE of $56
Prizes are awarded in the 3-2-2-2-1-1-1 format for a "prize" of $24.
Net profit to CZE is $32

Sealed
8 players BUY 6 packs and pay the $1 entry fee
$13 each at a total investment to CZE of $104
Prizes are awarded in the 3-2-2-2-1-1-1 format for a "prize" of $24
Net profit to CZE is $80

How it should work for Sealed
8 players BUY 6 packs and pay the $1 entry fee
$13 each at a total investment to CZE of $104
Prizes are awarded in the 6-3-3-3-2-2-2 format for a "prize" of $42
Net profit to CZE is $64 (twice as many packs sold.. twice the profit)

Why would I PAY $13 with a chance to win 3 packs if I can PAY $7 for the same chance??

I would be better off PAYING for two drafts since I would have a chance to win twice as many packs (albeit for $1 more)

mach
04-20-2014, 07:43 PM
The entry fee is identical - 100 plat. Thats where the prize support comes from, not the packs brought in.


Nope. 800 plat total entry fee in a draft is not nearly enough to support a 12 pack prize pool. The rest comes from the opening of the packs, since opened packs are worth less than unopened ones. If this weren't the case, then drafting would be net profitable for the table, and people would do more drafts (sham ones, even) until this became the case.

Let's do some math:

8-person draft.
In: 800 plat, 24 Unopened packs.
Out: 24 Opened packs, 12 Unopened packs.

Let p=the value of a plat, u=the value of an unopened pack and o=the value of an opened pack.

800p+24u=24o+12u
800p+12u=24o

Let's suppose that the value of an unopened pack is list price (200 plat).

800p+12*200p=24o
3200p=24o
o=133p

So, in summary, each player's contribution to the prize pool is 1.5 unopened packs (300 plat). This is paid by combining the 100 plat entry fee and the 67 plat value lost for opening each of 3 packs.

Now, for sealed. If entry fee is still 100 plat but 6 packs are opened, that's a total of 500 plat contribution to the prize pool. So there should be 2.5 packs per person in prizes, not 1.5

primer
04-20-2014, 07:48 PM
I think you guys are looking at it with "KS" packs in mind. Packs used in tournaments are NOT free. The "prize" does not come from the $1 entry fee alone.

Let's assume 8 players, brand new to Hex are entering these two tournaments.

Draft
8 players BUY 3 packs each and pay the $1 entry fee.
$7 each at a total investment to CZE of $56
Prizes are awarded in the 3-2-2-2-1-1-1 format for a "prize" of $24.
Net profit to CZE is $32

Sealed
8 players BUY 6 packs and pay the $1 entry fee
$13 each at a total investment to CZE of $104
Prizes are awarded in the 3-2-2-2-1-1-1 format for a "prize" of $24
Net profit to CZE is $80

Why would I PAY $13 with a chance to win 3 packs if I can PAY $7 for the same chance??

I would be better off PAYING for two drafts since I would have a chance to win twice as many packs (albeit for $1 more)

You've already had the answer multiple times. The prizes are generated from the entry fee not the money you paid for packs. You could just open 3/6 packs and have no prizes...

sukebe
04-20-2014, 07:51 PM
The prize is the same because (as has been stated above) the entry fee, which pays for the packs, is the same.

Why do you pay more for sealed even though it has the same amount of prizes? The reason is simple, you come out of it with at least 7 packs worth of cards instead of 4. You get more, you pay more, it is that simple.

Say you do 2 drafts instead of sealed:

Pros:
-You get to play more
-You will end up with a minimum of 1 additional pack

Cons:
-You will be playing twice as long (this is big for a lot of people). each tournament takes around 3.5 to 4 hours to complete if you stay in the entire time. If your only reason to play draft instead of sealed is packs, do you really think doubling the time it takes is worth a measly $2-$6?
-While both formats involve skill, I don't think many would argue that draft tends to attract a more skilled play group. Most highly skilled players want to really more on those skills than their luck in pack opening (which sealed is heavily, though not entirely reliant on)

Mind you, despite all the above I will likely not do any sealed tournaments as I prefer draft. I also know people who do not like choosing one card at a time and just want to open packs and do what they can with them. Ultimately, the difference in prize packs is not worth playing something you do not want to in order to get them.

That was longer than I thought so:

TL : DR -- The entry fee determines prizes, not the number of packs you open and there is no logical reason to change that policy

Chadatog
04-20-2014, 07:54 PM
Cryptozoic's profit comes from you buying platinum. Everything done in the game is simply transfer of digital goods.

Here is where I think your thinking is wrong


Why would I PAY $13 with a chance to win 3 packs if I can PAY $7 for the same chance??
I would be better off PAYING for two drafts since I would have a chance to win twice as many packs (albeit for $1 more)

You need to stop thinking about only winning 3 packs from your $13 and more like guaranteed 6 packs for $13, with the chance to get up to 9. So you are really only gambling with $1 and not $13. The right comparison would be 6-9 packs gained for $13 and 3-6 packs gained for $7.

Actually I see sealed as having more value than draft right now due to the fact that you can pull a few good rares/legendaries in your packs, get to keep them and still make a good deck, where as if you start rare drafting you will more than likely create a bad deck (unless it's Vampire King and AoD that you are cracking). I've always hated pulling something incredibly good in the third pack and have it be completely not in my drafted colors.

DanTheMeek
04-20-2014, 08:47 PM
I agree with the OP on this, though as I've stated before I don't care for sealed and wish it was replaced with a Keep What you Bring draft format, as that format is likely never to exist, it would be nice if sealed provided a better value, and to do so, I think the only way they could would be to double the entree fee for sealed, make it 200 plat instead of 100, then give double prizes, thus a sealed is more like two drafsts in one, you open double the packs, you pay double the entree fee, but you get double the prizes. If they did that, that would absolutely get me to give sealed a chance.

primer
04-20-2014, 09:08 PM
I agree with the OP on this, though as I've stated before I don't care for sealed and wish it was replaced with a Keep What you Bring draft format, as that format is likely never to exist, it would be nice if sealed provided a better value, and to do so, I think the only way they could would be to double the entree fee for sealed, make it 200 plat instead of 100, then give double prizes, thus a sealed is more like two drafsts in one, you open double the packs, you pay double the entree fee, but you get double the prizes. If they did that, that would absolutely get me to give sealed a chance.

That would be fine, but you could also have $2 drafts too. Personally I love the sealed format, it takes the strategy of drafting away which I have yet to master. I look forward to sealed tournaments too.

f5shooter
04-20-2014, 09:12 PM
That would be fine, but you could also have $2 drafts too. Personally I love the sealed format, it takes the strategy of drafting away which I have yet to master. I look forward to sealed tournaments too.

So you think CZE could run drafts where players bring 3 packs and pay $2 entry fee and they would pay out double prizes??? (Well I know they could but it would just to be generous.)

I don't think people understand that the packs you bring to the tournament are part of the fee to enter. Mach explained it well on page 1. Someone will come along who can express it better than I.....

sukebe
04-20-2014, 09:19 PM
I agree with the OP on this, though as I've stated before I don't care for sealed and wish it was replaced with a Keep What you Bring draft format, as that format is likely never to exist, it would be nice if sealed provided a better value, and to do so, I think the only way they could would be to double the entree fee for sealed, make it 200 plat instead of 100, then give double prizes, thus a sealed is more like two drafsts in one, you open double the packs, you pay double the entree fee, but you get double the prizes. If they did that, that would absolutely get me to give sealed a chance.

This would work fine I think. Double Fee = Double prizes. I might even give it a try like that. As for the person who said the same could be done for drafts, I really don't think that is necessary. Drafts already provide a better way to acquire cards than sealed does, no need to make it even more lucrative.

DanTheMeek
04-20-2014, 09:22 PM
I think CZE doubling the cost and prizes for draft would be a bad move on their part, drafts drive MTGO and will hopefully drive Hex as well for CZE, only in small part because of the entree fee, but in much larger part because they are a pack sink. Like gold sinks in MMORPGs or other similar games, drafts get unopened packs out of the game and force players to buy more packs once they run out to continue to draft. Since you keep a 45 or 90 cards respectively for draft or sealed regardless of what place you finish, it feels to the player like they didn't spend anything beyond the entree fee when in reality they did spend something, they spent the "opening" of those packs, something which you can never get back and costs the full price of another pack to get more of. If you just happened to have packs you were going to open anyway, it can be "effectively" free to you beyond the entree fee, but if you draft enough there will come a point when you're out of packs and have to buy more to join, and thats when CZE really profits.

I'm not knocking the system, its a good system frankly, everyone wins, players get good value for their investment while CZE gets more revenue, part of which they can dump back into the game to continue improving it, but its a falacy if you believe the only cost to entering a draft is the entree fee. Thats why I agree with the TC, with the caveat that the entree fee would also have to be doubled, that because you're opening double the packs, if you're getting the same reward from sealed as you were from draft, you paid more but got less (again the extra payment being those 3 extra packs you opened that you can never re-close).

primer
04-20-2014, 09:28 PM
So you think CZE could run drafts where players bring 3 packs and pay $2 entry fee and they would pay out double prizes??? (Well I know they could but it would just to be generous.)

I don't think people understand that the packs you bring to the tournament are part of the fee to enter. Mach explained it well on page 1. Someone will come along who can express it better than I.....

Yes, CZE could do it, but it wouldn't be smart on their part, they would lose more money that way.

The packs are part of the entry fee but not part of the prize structure, I don't know what you're missing. If the total amount spent was anything to do with the prizes then sealed would already have a bigger prize pot.

sukebe
04-20-2014, 09:45 PM
I think CZE doubling the cost and prizes for draft would be a bad move on their part, drafts drive MTGO and will hopefully drive Hex as well for CZE, only in small part because of the entree fee, but in much larger part because they are a pack sink. Like gold sinks in MMORPGs or other similar games, drafts get unopened packs out of the game and force players to buy more packs once they run out to continue to draft. Since you keep a 45 or 90 cards respectively for draft or sealed regardless of what place you finish, it feels to the player like they didn't spend anything beyond the entree fee when in reality they did spend something, they spent the "opening" of those packs, something which you can never get back and costs the full price of another pack to get more of. If you just happened to have packs you were going to open anyway, it can be "effectively" free to you beyond the entree fee, but if you draft enough there will come a point when you're out of packs and have to buy more to join, and thats when CZE really profits.

I'm not knocking the system, its a good system frankly, everyone wins, players get good value for their investment while CZE gets more revenue, part of which they can dump back into the game to continue improving it, but its a falacy if you believe the only cost to entering a draft is the entree fee. Thats why I agree with the TC, with the caveat that the entree fee would also have to be doubled, that because you're opening double the packs, if you're getting the same reward from sealed as you were from draft, you paid more but got less (again the extra payment being those 3 extra packs you opened that you can never re-close).

You are not losing anything when you draft or do sealed with your own packs. You start with 3 or 6 packs and 100 plat, you end with 3 or 6 packs plus up to 3 extra packs. 3 = 3, there is no loss of packs.

Again, you are not really coming out ahead by doing 2 drafts instead of 1 sealed with the current set up unless you value your time at about $1.5 to $2 an hour. You are loosing 3 - 4 hours more time than you would in a sealed and spending an extra 100 plat for no more than 3 additional packs. I cannot be the only one here who realizes that time is a cost (even if you don't value it highly).

Finally, remember that CZE makes their money from platinum sales. Packs can come from previous tournament wins, chests from packs (which can come from playing in a tournament) or from the kickstarter, or some future promo (and they mentioned that 1 or 2 packs will be obtainable from the pve side of the game). Platinum, which the is the currency needed for entry fees, will only come from people purchasing it from CZE (even if it was traded to you from a player, it had to be purchased). With this in mind, you cannot really even say for sure if CZE makes more money from Sealed than from Drafts.

TL : DR -- 3 = 3, so you do not lose packs in draft/sealed. Boosters can be earned from tournaments, plat must be purchased so Sealed may not earn them as much extra money as you think.

P.S. Despite what I said above I would personally do 2 drafts instead of 1 sealed. This however is entirely my personal preference as there is little to no real difference between draft and sealed when you take time into account.

shocker455
04-20-2014, 10:28 PM
I agree the 12 packs as prizes feels small, however 24 packs would be to large. One reason you can have prize support be so cheap is the time investment people must make. If you double the prizes, your cutting the time investment effect in half. I think 18 packs at 150 plat would be better.

Although i feel like sealed is much better suited for 16+ player tournaments. 3 rounds just feels so short for using 6 packs.

DanTheMeek
04-20-2014, 10:46 PM
You are not losing anything when you draft or do sealed with your own packs. You start with 3 or 6 packs and 100 plat, you end with 3 or 6 packs plus up to 3 extra packs. 3 = 3, there is no loss of packs.

Again, you are not really coming out ahead by doing 2 drafts instead of 1 sealed with the current set up unless you value your time at about $1.5 to $2 an hour. You are loosing 3 - 4 hours more time than you would in a sealed and spending an extra 100 plat for no more than 3 additional packs. I cannot be the only one here who realizes that time is a cost (even if you don't value it highly).

Finally, remember that CZE makes their money from platinum sales. Packs can come from previous tournament wins, chests from packs (which can come from playing in a tournament) or from the kickstarter, or some future promo (and they mentioned that 1 or 2 packs will be obtainable from the pve side of the game). Platinum, which the is the currency needed for entry fees, will only come from people purchasing it from CZE (even if it was traded to you from a player, it had to be purchased). With this in mind, you cannot really even say for sure if CZE makes more money from Sealed than from Drafts.

TL : DR -- 3 = 3, so you do not lose packs in draft/sealed. Boosters can be earned from tournaments, plat must be purchased so Sealed may not earn them as much extra money as you think.

P.S. Despite what I said above I would personally do 2 drafts instead of 1 sealed. This however is entirely my personal preference as there is little to no real difference between draft and sealed when you take time into account.

Again, there is a difference between an opened pack and sealed pack. A sealed pack can be used to enter limited tournaments, an already opened pack can not. This is why companies can afford to give such good prizes for such small entree fees in limited tournaments, because part of the fee you're paying is the cost of opening those packs you brought with you.

Lets use an example, I spent 31 bucks on the game, that's all the money I have in my entertainment budget for the next 2 months, and spend 24 of those dollars on buying 12 packs packs leaving me with 600 plat. Now lets say, whether I enter draft or sealed I average 1 pack in prizes, I'm not the worst player but I'm not the best, I'm Mr. Average Johnny. If I play 4 drafts I come away with 4 packs in prizes, 12 opened packs worth of cards, and I've got 300 plat left. I can enter 1 more draft winning one more pack bringing my total to 2 for unopponent, and my opened packs worth of cards to 15. Now if I want to play another draft this month I've got to spent 200 more plat to get my third pack, and the last of my plat to enter. From here the final result is one more pack that I'll probably just open so I can play constructed with it for the rest of the two months.

Net result is 18 opened packs worth of cards, 1 sealed pack, or 19 opened packs if I just open that last one at this point since regardless my financial limitations prevent me from further drafting this month.

Now let say I try to play sealed instead. I play two tournaments and I've got 12 opened packs, 300 plat, and 2 unopened packs. And I'm done for the month as I don't have enough plat + packs to enter any more sealed tournaments. If I just spend what I can on packs, I get one more, and I end up with 15 total packs (plus 100 plat) for the exact same amount of money I got 19 for from playing draft instead. If I'm willing to invest that last 100 and 3 unopened packs into a draft now instead of sealed I can get it up to 16, but I'm still 3 packs less for the same entertainment budget, I paid the same and got less because I did sealed instead of draft.

Further still, 2 months pass, and now I've got money again... I have to spend it on packs AND entree fees because at best I've got 1 un-opened pack left, at worst I opened it to use for constructed (or pve or whatever). So if I want to draft its going to cost me 7 more dollars, if I want to sealed its going to cost me 13.

Again the key thing to remember is I can't just pay the entree fee because I have no-unopened packs, I now have to buy more, and if I want to do sealed instead of draft, the number I have to buy doubles.

Now again, I don't think the prize for sealed should be doubled UNLESS the entree fee is also doubled... but I do feel the entree fee should be doubled to make sealed a fair value when compared to draft.

As for time being a cost, sure, I'll grant you that, and you could argue that sealed would become the better value and more attractive option if it did give double prizes even with double the entree fee... but here's the thing, most players, certainly not all, draft or play sealed because they enjoy the format, not because they're trying to maximize their value. The value does factor in, to be absolutely sure, but its more of an added perk then anything. As such, to them, draft is actually MORE valuable, because you're getting double the "fun" if you will, for the same fee. For them time isn't a cost, its what your paying for, the more time they get to spend playing in these formats, the better, so sealed actually looks like the worse value since you go through double the packs in about the same amount of time.

sukebe
04-20-2014, 11:05 PM
"As for time being a cost, sure, I'll grant you that, and you could argue that sealed would become the better value and more attractive option if it did give double prizes even with double the entree fee... but here's the thing, most players, certainly not all, draft or play sealed because they enjoy the format, not because they're trying to maximize their value. The value does factor in, to be absolutely sure, but its more of an added perk then anything. As such, to them, draft is actually MORE valuable, because you're getting double the "fun" if you will, for the same fee. For them time isn't a cost, its what your paying for, the more time they get to spend playing in these formats, the better, so sealed actually looks like the worse value since you go through double the packs in about the same amount of time."

I was hoping for a response like this. If you prefer one format over the other, why would $1-$5 dissuade you from it? If you put personal preference ahead of everything else (as you should when it comes to games) then both of our arguments become invalid. Simply play what you most want to play.

One option costs more money, the other more time. Since they both cost more than the other in one currency, I see no real disparity. If you have plenty of time but little money, go for draft. If you have plenty of money and a lot of time, I am extremely jealous of you (also, you can play sealed). Love sealed? Play sealed. Love draft? Play draft. Again, I fail to see the issue.

As for your unopened pack =/= an opened pack, I somewhat understand what you are saying. However, the cards in those packs have value as well and it seems you are ignoring that. One of the ways to "go infinite" in MTGO includes selling cards to other players. Once the AH and trading become available to us, this will apply in Hex as well. In short, while I concede I was not entirely correct in my statements, you are in the same boat in this case :-)

Again, while I do not think it necessary, I would not be opposed increasing the entry fee of sealed and increasing and then increasing the prizes. though on further consideration (and shocker455 reminding me of the importance of pack sinks) I do not think that the ratio should be 1:1. Exactly what the ratio should be however, I have no idea :-)

edit: added the bolded text in the last paragraph. not sure how I forgot to put that in there but I did :-)

Yoss
04-20-2014, 11:32 PM
The question in the OP "With twice as many packs opened/sold, should the payouts reflect the higher investment?" is spot on, though some of the subsequent posts have bad math and/or logic. Pretty much everything that needs to be said in regards to the facts and math is available in three posts, one of which is in this thread. After reading those three, one is then ready to seek a solution, one option for which has already been suggested and is also at the end of this post.

Post 1

Nope. 800 plat total entry fee in a draft is not nearly enough to support a 12 pack prize pool. The rest comes from the opening of the packs, since opened packs are worth less than unopened ones. If this weren't the case, then drafting would be net profitable for the table, and people would do more drafts (sham ones, even) until this became the case.

Let's do some math:

8-person draft.
In: 800 plat, 24 Unopened packs.
Out: 24 Opened packs, 12 Unopened packs.

Let p=the value of a plat, u=the value of an unopened pack and o=the value of an opened pack.

800p+24u=24o+12u
800p+12u=24o

Let's suppose that the value of an unopened pack is list price (200 plat).

800p+12*200p=24o
3200p=24o
o=133p

So, in summary, each player's contribution to the prize pool is 1.5 unopened packs (300 plat). This is paid by combining the 100 plat entry fee and the 67 plat value lost for opening each of 3 packs.

Now, for sealed. If entry fee is still 100 plat but 6 packs are opened, that's a total of 500 plat contribution to the prize pool. So there should be 2.5 packs per person in prizes, not 1.5

Post 2
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=34329&page=5&p=350536&viewfull=1#post350536

Post 3
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=34329&page=5&p=350702&viewfull=1#post350702

Possible Solution
Double entry packs (6), double fee (200p), double prize packs (24) for Sealed seems reasonable to me. (Math checks out per the above.)

sukebe
04-21-2014, 12:08 AM
The question in the OP "With twice as many packs opened/sold, should the payouts reflect the higher investment?" is spot on, though some of the subsequent posts have bad math and/or logic. Pretty much everything that needs to be said in regards to the facts and math is available in three posts, one of which is in this thread. After reading those three, one is then ready to seek a solution, one option for which has already been suggested and is also at the end of this post.

Post 1


Post 2
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=34329&page=5&p=350536&viewfull=1#post350536

Post 3
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=34329&page=5&p=350702&viewfull=1#post350702

Possible Solution
Double entry packs (6), double fee (200p), double prize packs (24) for Sealed seems reasonable to me. (Math checks out per the above.)

Again, packs do not necessarily = $2 into CZE wallet and should not even be part of any discussion of prize payout. The fact that packs can be obtained from tournaments is the entire point of this discussion so no formula that counts packs as $2 (as a cost to us or as going towards the tournament payout) could possibly be even close to correct. And again, packs you start your event with have nothing to do with prizes. Nothing. At. All. The only thing that relates to prizes in a tournament is the entry fee.

And, as has been mentioned already in this thread, it is important to note that events do not give an inordinate amount of packs as prizes as that hurts both CZE financially and the entire second hand market (be it unopened packs or singles).

ZillahEnoch
04-21-2014, 12:17 AM
I totally agree with you Yoss.

As for the debate one post above that, I will try an other example to explain why I find the "double all" solution is better.
First of all, I don't think you should treat time as a "cost" in a paid entertainment. It may be an inconvenience, sure, but not a cost to take in account in this debate. (Do you feel you should pay your ticket cheaper for a movie that takes 3 hours of your time instead of 2 ?).
Now for an example like Dan made but simplier :
You have 6 packs and 200 plat.
Draft them : You get 6 packs worth of cards and between 0 and 6 new packs.
Play them in sealed : You get 6 packs worth of cards and between 0 and 3 packs along with 100 plat.

Now, would you rather have a chance at 3 more packs or 100 plat ? I guess you choose the chance at 3 packs.
To put the same thing an other way, choosing the plat would mean you would rather play a draft without entry fees and without prizes than a regular one.

However, with the "double all for sealed" thing, you would have exactly the same thing in both scenarios (6 packs worth of cards and between 0 and 6 new packs). That way, whatever you like most (Sealed or Draft) you don't get the feeling that you would get more value out of the other format.

sukebe
04-21-2014, 12:34 AM
I give up. At this point I am repeating myself, you all are repeating yourselves.

ZillahEnoch
04-21-2014, 12:59 AM
Aw, now I'm feeling bad, I'm sorry I failed to see your point :(

Don't get me wrong I don't try to support sealed over draft neither the other way around. I'm just advocating that there shouldn't be a financial incentive towards one or the other, which there currently is.
However big or small the incentive is compared to the appeal of playing the format we like most, there shouldn't be one.

Now maybe you don't agree, in which case no hurt feelings. ^^

Kroan
04-21-2014, 01:02 AM
The problem i find with sealed is that the prizes are not enough packs to play another sealed even if you place 2nd in an 8-4

LLCoolDave
04-21-2014, 04:57 AM
Thinking that booster packs brought into the draft/sealed queue by the players is a profit for CZE is a very shortsighted view, as that's only vaguely true if the packs have been purchased in the store directly. If the economy is somewhat balanced, most of the packs will be provided as prize support for other tournaments (constructed queues pay out packs while eating up none, for instance). In that case, the revenue for those specific packs HAS ALREADY HAPPENED, namely at the moment that tournament fee was collected. At that point the booster pack just sits around as a digital object and does never again provide any direct revenue stream to CZE. Whether it sits around in a dead account forgotten or gets used up in a draft makes no difference whatsoever to CZE, either case doesn't end up with any more money on their bank account.

There's a certain amount of "dead" unused boosters floating around the economy to keep it functional, namely the ones that are on the AH at any given moment of time and the ones people are stockpiling for personal convenience, the amount of which scales with the size of the player base, which in a sense can be seen as an asset by CZE (They have earned money in the past and will never be changed from their current status of being an unopened, unused booster pack) but outside of massive player base growth there's no money to be earned by CZE there in the long term either. On a similar vein, there's an amount of dead platinum everyone has to have on their account so the economy has a sufficient amount of liquidity behind it, and beyond that every bit of platinum used up in AH fees or tournament entry fees has to replaced by somebody purchasing platinum from CZE, which is THEIR ONLY POINT OF REVENUE IN THE ENTIRE SYSTEM. Sorry to emphasize that so hard, but most people do not seem to understand that.

With a reasonable value of a booster being 180 Platinum, a draft entry costs players (!) effectively 5120 platinum, returns 12 packs worth 2160 Platinum so the players get the privilege of opening 24 boosters (+ getting to play in the event for fun) for 2960 Platinum, or 123.3 Platinum per pack. This sets a baseline max value of an opened booster pack and the cards contained within.

A sealed event as described costs 9440, returns 2160, so 48 boosters are opened for 7280 or at a price point of 151.6 Platinum per pack. This clearly means that playing sealed is a lot less profitable to players. Simply doubling the payout without increasing the entry fee leads to boosters being opened at a rate of 106.6 Platinum / pack which would decrease the value of cards by a substantial amount.

Simply doubling the prizes hurts EVERYONE by devaluing their cards. The best solution is to double the entry fee and the payout to create the same ratio as a draft queue, as that should leave people indifferent to their preferred version of limited play. I currently see no reason why CZE should want people to prefer draft queues.

f5shooter
04-21-2014, 05:18 AM
Simply doubling the prizes hurts EVERYONE by devaluing their cards. The best solution is to double the entry fee and the payout to create the same ratio as a draft queue, as that should leave people indifferent to their preferred version of limited play. I currently see no reason why CZE should want people to prefer draft queues.

I think I used the word "doubling" but it was a mistake. I meant to say, and later amended, that in a Sealed Swiss Tournament, the pay outs should go from a 3-2-2-2-1-1-1 to a 6-3-3-3-2-2-2. Which is paying out slightly less than double (21 to 24) and should maintain the value to both CZE and players roughly the same WITHOUT increasing the entry fee.


The problem i find with sealed is that the prizes are not enough packs to play another sealed even if you place 2nd in an 8-4

I do not believe there are any "competitive" Sealed tournaments with this type of payout structure. (If there were, I'd recommend a 15-7 payout for Sealed)

LNQ
04-21-2014, 06:40 AM
LLCooldave, Yoss and mach are the guys with the correct analysis here. The right solution is doubling the entry fee and doubling the prize structure, so that there is no imbalance between Sealed and Draft.

However, Cory has talked about wanting to make Sealed become an asynchronous format (along the lines of Hearthstone's Arena mode), where you can play matches whenever it suits you and it matches you according to your success with your sealed deck. This kind of format would have a completely different prize structure. I hope this happens, as it would make Sealed a fun new alternative to other game modes.

Gary3k
04-21-2014, 07:32 AM
You cant go infinite unless you get enough packs from wins to keep playing... so why played sealed? you have a much better chance of going infinite if you draft instead.

Xenavire
04-21-2014, 08:48 AM
You cant go infinite unless you get enough packs from wins to keep playing... so why played sealed? you have a much better chance of going infinite if you draft instead.

I doubt CZE intends for people to go infinite. Sure, they won't stop you if you manage it, but what would they gain by enabling that behaviour?

Gwaer
04-21-2014, 08:51 AM
When you open a pack outside of a draft or sealed you get the cards, the treasure chests, etcetera. When you open them inside of a draft or sealed, you end up with the same number of cards and treasure chests.

Draft and and sealed is already more profitable because for the cost of 1 dollar you end up with the opportunity to have more packs after opening packs. Counting the value ofpacks in the prize support means you are actually stealing value inherent to the pack from anyone who opens a pack outside of a tournament. Which is a ridiculous stance, especially for Yoss, since he was so vehemently against the primal chance being removed when you buy your pack for draft. Now he is advocating removing value for packs outside of events.

The number of packs required cannot be taken into account when figuring prize support, only entry fees, unless you do not actually get the contents of packs you bring and the cards are effectively consumed.

Anyone eho who is saying otherwise is just wrong. Sukebe had it exactly right. There's nothing left to discuss other than how greedy people are at this point.

knightofeffect
04-21-2014, 09:10 AM
I think CZE should do away with the current antiquated concept of sealed and replace it with a new asynchronous sealed where you keep nothing you open.

IE

Entry fee of 200plat for doubled prize support
You have to provide no product and similarly keep nothing opened in sealed
Play asynchronous games at your leasuire with a 12-win/3-loss or equivalent limit to determine prize payout

I don't see how that could piss off even the most hardcore sealed-only subset of players (although I'm sure there is a way) while creating a better and more time-flexible format that has better prize support without forcing additional product investment.

hex_colin
04-21-2014, 09:24 AM
I think CZE should do away with the current antiquated concept of sealed and replace it with a new asynchronous sealed where you keep nothing you open.

IE

Entry fee of 200plat for doubled prize support
You have to provide no product and similarly keep nothing opened in sealed
Play asynchronous games at your leasuire with a 12-win/3-loss or equivalent limit to determine prize payout

I don't see how that could piss off even the most hardcore sealed-only subset of players (although I'm sure there is a way) while creating a better and more time-flexible format that has better prize support without forcing additional product investment.

So, copy Hearthstone? ;)

I like Sealed. It's a different challenge.

GrinningBuddha
04-21-2014, 09:34 AM
You cant go infinite unless you get enough packs from wins to keep playing... so why played sealed? you have a much better chance of going infinite if you draft instead.

It's next to impossible to go infinite from packs alone. Those who put long streaks together are selling individual cards to help fund future drafts. By playing sealed, you're guaranteed double the amount of cards as a draft, thus giving you more options to sell to fund the next event.

The guys who are complaining about prize support would lose their minds if CZE used MTGO's prize support guidelines. We've got a great thing here.

knightofeffect
04-21-2014, 09:36 AM
So, copy Hearthstone? ;)

I like Sealed. It's a different challenge.

Meh, more or less. =P

But Colin, I don't see how that alternative approach makes it any different a challenge, besides being able to stomach busting $20 worth or product to compete.

Your sealed deck composition is mutually exclusive from the tournament field so asynchronous matches do nothing to dilute the matchmaking. Where as in draft the opposite is true, half (or more some would argue) of the skill lies in reading the evolving meta around you in the drafting itself and is therefore the deck composition is incredibly dependent on the tournament field and has no possibility of an asynchronous approach. This is one area where the HS arenas are really lacking from a purely competitive standpoint (IE the ability to cut to a top-8 HS arena doesn't work due to the potential imbalance in the mutually exclusive drafting portion of arenas).

Basically, if CZE wants to take advantage of the opportunity that asynchronous tournaments provide in not manipulating the time of its participants past single-hour-blocks, sealed is the best opportunity to do so. If they do plan on moving in that direction, there is no reason to hold on to the generally unpopular current state of sealed with the added benefit of alleviating many of the concerns regarding prize support in this thread.

Personally, in the current state of sealed, I historically have only played one sealed per block once the final set in the block is released (with exceptions for PTQs). If it was updated to the asynchronous alternative, I'd likely play it about as much as draft.

Side note: If Hex would like to take advantage of the potential influx of new ccg/tcg players that HS on IOS will no doubt breed, having a common format point of transition could only be beneficial.

Grumph
04-21-2014, 09:47 AM
Just curious, how does the constructed prizepool/entryfee look? Is it on par with draft or sealed?

hex_colin
04-21-2014, 09:54 AM
Meh, more or less. =P

But Colin, I don't see how that alternative approach makes it any different a challenge, besides being able to stomach busting $20 worth or product to compete.

Your sealed deck composition is mutually exclusive from the tournament field so asynchronous matches do nothing to dilute the matchmaking. Where as in draft the opposite is true, half (or more some would argue) of the skill lies in reading the evolving meta around you in the drafting itself and is therefore the deck composition is incredibly dependent on the tournament field and has no possibility of an asynchronous approach. This is one area where the HS arenas are really lacking from a purely competitive standpoint (IE the ability to cut to a top-8 HS arena doesn't work due to the potential imbalance in the mutually exclusive drafting portion of arenas).

Basically, if CZE wants to take advantage of the opportunity that asynchronous tournaments provide in not manipulating the time of its participants past single-hour-blocks, sealed is the best opportunity to do so. If they do plan on moving in that direction, there is no reason to hold on to the generally unpopular current state of sealed with the added benefit of alleviating many of the concerns regarding prize support in this thread.

Personally, in the current state of sealed, I historically have only played one sealed per block once the final set in the block is released (with exceptions for PTQs). If it was updated to the asynchronous alternative, I'd likely play it about as much as draft.

Side note: If Hex would like to take advantage of the potential influx of new ccg/tcg players that HS on IOS will no doubt breed, having a common format point of transition could only be beneficial.

Actually it does impact the matchmaking - it selects for stronger decks because they're more likely to get played and be around longer (to get to max wins). Weaker decks are culled quickly (3 losses) and may not even be seriously played (quick concessions).

That being said, I like the idea of having an asynchronous format. It just doesn't have to be at the expense of a traditional Sealed format.

There's clearly a fine line between having too few options so that you don't capture all of the potential play, versus having too many and having queues not firing. That's easily solved though - lots of ways to incentivize particular queues on the fly to ensure they all get a fair shot, e.g. the WOW "Call to Arms" concept.

Kroan
04-21-2014, 09:54 AM
@kmightofeffect: they already announced that a async sealed mode is coming

stiii
04-21-2014, 10:00 AM
The number of people in this thread just asking CZE to give them more stuff is pretty insane. Just because not all events have equal prizes doesn't mean they should be changed. Lots of people don't agree on what counts as equal anyway.

If nothing else any argument for raising prizes to match could equally be used to lower prizes to match.

Yoss
04-21-2014, 10:35 AM
OK, so lower prizes to match. :)

Seriously though. In order for a format to exist, dev time must be spent on it. Sealed is a format, therefore in order for it to exist dev time must be spent on it. Spending dev time on a format that will not be sufficiently played is a waste. Sealed will not be sufficiently played if Draft provides better value. Draft currently provides better value, therefore Sealed will not be sufficiently played, therefore dev time on Sealed is wasted. Wasteful projects should not be funded, therefore Sealed should not exist.

Either that, or Sealed needs to provide equal value to Draft. (And equal could be by nerfing Draft or by buffing Sealed.)

knightofeffect
04-21-2014, 10:39 AM
@kmightofeffect: they already announced that a async sealed mode is coming

Yep, I remember. I was just floating it as a way that they can alleviate the concerns of this thread. Also, I added my own personal wish that sealed would have a higher entrance fee with better prize support along with no product purchase as I think that would make sealed the most popular it could be.

Gwaer
04-21-2014, 10:41 AM
That's not true. Sealed provides a better value for time, and for people who just prefer sealed to draft, which is a suitably large number of people to justify the format. Especially if sealed is also the de facto asynchronous mode that you can just drop into and out of. It will be the most flexible format, even if it doesn't match up with your definition of value.

Barkam
04-21-2014, 10:59 AM
I agree. Keep traditional draft tournament. Replace traditional sealed tournament with Hearthstone (asynchronous) sealed tournament.

Yoss
04-21-2014, 11:10 AM
Yes, async Sealed and Constructed will be great. Should replace 8-man flights in both cases (de facto, not an actual CZE replacement).

Gwaer
04-21-2014, 11:10 AM
No need to go full hearthstone in the sealed asynchronous tournament. Keep it traditional sealed open the packs make the deck Then play the matches at your leisure. If you're going to go full HS arena it really should be an additional queue with no pack requirement and an entirely different payout structure. It probably shouldn't give packs at all for example.

Barkam
04-21-2014, 11:21 AM
I think distilling tournaments to their core experience would benefit everyone. It ensures immediate matches. I think having both Hearststone async sealed tournament and mtg sync/async sealed tournament would be redundant and dilutes players.

Edit: I should add to remind that each tournament format would also have different risk/reward or payout structure to address prize issues. This is a given which is why limiting formats to begin with is very important. Even with just 3 tournament formats (draft, async sealed, constrcuted) it will already be diluted.

Gwaer
04-21-2014, 11:29 AM
Right, but the hearthstone arena is not sealed. Or even the heart of sealed. It's nothing like sealed at all. It's more like a draft that you keep what you bring, which is nothing and are rewarded random cards at the end. You're picking a single card out of random options.

Yoss
04-21-2014, 12:37 PM
(Those who only care for the summary without math can skip to the last two paragraphs.)


Again, packs do not necessarily = $2 into CZE wallet and should not even be part of any discussion of prize payout. The fact that packs can be obtained from tournaments is the entire point of this discussion so no formula that counts packs as $2 (as a cost to us or as going towards the tournament payout) could possibly be even close to correct. And again, packs you start your event with have nothing to do with prizes. Nothing. At. All. The only thing that relates to prizes in a tournament is the entry fee.

Saying that packs might not be 200p does not save your point. The math that Mach provided was done with variables so that it is true regardless of the pack value. To restate and expand it:

Let:
p=the value of a plat
u=the value in plat of an unopened pack at the AH
od=cost of opening a pack in Draft
os=cost of opening a pack in Sealed

There is a restriction of "200p >= unopen >= open >= 0" since the value of a pack must be at least equal to the value of its contents, CZE sells at 200p, and the value/cost of a thing cannot go below zero.


8-person draft.
In: 800 plat, 24 Unopened packs.
Out: 24 Opened packs, 12 Unopened packs.

800p+24u=24od+12u
800p+12u=24od


8-person sealed.
In: 800 plat, 48 Unopened packs.
Out: 48 Opened packs, 12 Unopened packs.

800p+48u=48os+12u
800p+36u=48os


Now, if you don't like the choice of u=200p, then don't use it. You don't even need to pick a number, just solve for os and od and compare the relative values with algebra.

od = (800p+12u)/24 = (800/24)p+(1/2)u
os = (800p+36u)/48 = (800/48)p+(3/4)u

Now we can guess and check that os ?>? od (meaning it costs more to open packs in Sealed and therefore Draft is better value).
(800/48)p+(3/4)u ?>? (800/24)p+(1/2)u
(800/12)p+3u ?>? (800/6)p+2u
(800/12)p+u ?>? (800/6)p
u ?>? (800/6)p-(800/12)p
u ?>? (800/12)p
u ?>? 67p

So our guess is correct if we can show that "u>67p" is always true. For this, we use the "unopen >= open" restriction to show the lower bounds on u where u=od and u=os.

800p+12u=24od=24u
800p=12u
u = 67p (lower bound for draft)

800p+36u=48os=48u
800p=12u
u = 67p (lower bound for sealed)

Note that below this price point of 67p you have "open > unopen" which means the pack contents are worth more than the pack itself. As such, you should just crack packs rather than using them in Limited, because there is zero value loss between opened and unopened packs. Indeed, there is value GAINED by opening! This is a condition that, if it exists, will not last long because savvy players will start buying and cracking AH packs like crazy to relist their contents at a profit. This will continue until the supply of AH packs below 67p is gone. At that point, the point at which there is a reason (value-wise) to play Limited, we find that Sealed gives less return on investment than Draft (os > od).

Finally, Gwaer is correct that you generally pay a little more time for Draft than Sealed. In Sealed people tend to take the whole 20 minutes of deckbuilding. In Draft, you have the extra cost of drafting (20 to 30 minutes), but then have only ~10 minute deck building. So, with Sealed you pay maybe 20 minutes less time out of 200 minutes (10% savings). You also get some % less value per the equations above. If booster prices are very very low then your value loss for Sealed versus Draft is also low. At 155p booster price, you lose 20% plat value in trade for your 10% time gain. At 100p booster price, you lose 10% plat value in trade for your 10% time gain. Only you know what your time is worth, but even at maximum value loss (u=200p), you're only giving up $0.33 for your 20 minutes (that's $1 per hour).

Gwaer
04-21-2014, 12:56 PM
Packs cannot be entered into prize support equations period, because when you do you're adding value inherent to packs that did no exist before. Ie robbing people who don't open in tournaments from innate pack value.

Prize support can't take packs opened into account while remaining fair for everyone opening packs. It has to be done solely out of entrance fees.

sukebe
04-21-2014, 12:59 PM
Packs cannot be entered into prize support equations period, because when you do you're adding value inherent to packs that did no exist before. Ie robbing people who don't open in tournaments from innate pack value.

Prize support can't take packs opened into account while remaining fair for everyone opening packs. It has to be done solely out of entrance fees.

You phrased this far better than I did, thank you :-)

LLCoolDave
04-21-2014, 01:04 PM
Packs cannot be entered into prize support equations period, because when you do you're adding value inherent to packs that did no exist before. Ie robbing people who don't open in tournaments from innate pack value.

Prize support can't take packs opened into account while remaining fair for everyone opening packs. It has to be done solely out of entrance fees.

But opening packs in tournaments DOES have inherent value from a player's point of view, as it is cheaper than doing so outside of tournaments because of prize support. It is always going to be cheaper than just ripping them open as long as the prize support is giving a better rate on entry fees than the ordinary market value of a closed booster.

hex_colin
04-21-2014, 01:08 PM
I love a good financial model as much as anyone, but when I play games I'm all about maximizing fun. All I really care about is "what do I feel like doing?" I hope more people share the "fun" philosophy than have the "maximize value" philosophy.

Gwaer
04-21-2014, 01:09 PM
All of that perceived value is taken from the entrance fee as well. You can pay a dollar to make your packs go farther. But the packs themselves aren't relevant. Only the fact that you paid to enter in addition. You can stretch that entrance fee a long way, but what you get for the pack itself is static.

Yoss
04-21-2014, 01:09 PM
If the only value in an unopened pack is its contents, then the math would bear that out, and in fact I did adress just such a case in my previous post (see the 67p section). There is no fair or unfair. Either the value of an unopened pack is greater than its conents will be once opened, or it is not, or they are equal. There are no other options.

If an unopened pack is worth less than its contents, then players will start cracking packs and selling the contents until this is no longer true.

If an unopened pack is worth more than its contents, then it is probably because you can play Limited with an unopened pack but not with an open one. (If you have another hypothesis, feel free to share.)

If an unopened pack is worth exactly the sum of its contents, then playing Limited is never worth it (except for the intangible fun value) because you could get the same value in a tiny fraction of the time by just cracking packs. You'll also be sitting at around 67p value on the AH which seems too low to be credible except maybe while the KS packs flood in.

Gwaer
04-21-2014, 01:16 PM
The value of packs opened or unopened is irrelevant to the amount of prize support. Your equation may be a very rudimentary and crappy method for determining which event is more valuable to a player that weights enjoyment of the format the same you do.

which is fine. But it's off topic to they prize support discussion. Not every format will be equal value. And a number of people will play the highest valued format. But that is a very small piece of why people will play one format over another.

Yoss
04-21-2014, 01:21 PM
All of that perceived value is taken from the entrance fee as well. You can pay a dollar to make your packs go farther. But the packs themselves aren't relevant. Only the fact that you paid to enter in addition. You can stretch that entrance fee a long way, but what you get for the pack itself is static.

This is actually exactly what LLCD is saying, but with different words. You pay a dollar (and some unopened packs) in order to open your packs and maybe get some more unopened packs. You could say that the 12 prize packs only cost 800p (67p each, hey look there's that number again) and you'd be somewhat right. (I think this is what you're saying.)

However, to get the chance at those super-cheap packs you had to pay some unopened packs. If you opened your packs before heading to Limited, you would be denied entry. If you want to enter, you have to bring unopened packs. In other words, the two are not the same as far as the rules of Limited are concerned. It is this built-in rules distinction that provides the possibility of a value disparity between open and unopen, with unopen being favored.

knightofeffect
04-21-2014, 01:21 PM
Right, but the hearthstone arena is not sealed. Or even the heart of sealed. It's nothing like sealed at all. It's more like a draft that you keep what you bring, which is nothing and are rewarded random cards at the end. You're picking a single card out of random options.

I don't think anyone was suggesting using the HS arena psuedo-draft (really just pure randomization, not even sure the "draft" connotation should be used for it) instead of the traditional sealed "bust 5 packs" approach, at least I sure wasn't.

However, I still don't think I've heard an statement against my original post.

200plat entrance fee
bust 5 packs of product that you do not have to provide and whose contents is not added to your collection (keep what you bring)
typical sealed deck construction ensues
asynchronous matches at your convenience
some payout structure reflecting something like a 12-win/3-loss limit

I don't see a single way that the heart of sealed is altered by this methodology, unless you consider the very act of having to bust $20 worth of product part of the essence of sealed. Thereby, I don't see a reason that traditional sealed (which is generally unpopular) and this slightly altered sealed would need to both exist.

I also don't see why packs shouldn't be the reward for such a potential payout structure considering that only the "real-money" currency was used as the buy-in.

Hell, come to think of it, maybe they could make a different payout structure where gold is the entrance fee an only PvE rewards were the payout in order to create a bridge between the PvE and PvP experience.

Yoss
04-21-2014, 01:33 PM
Async proposals that imitate 8-man brackets:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32002

Async method that abandons brackets:
1. Entry of 100p and 6 packs. Once you enter, you cannot join any other tournaments until you are eliminated from this one.
2. Build your Sealed deck as normal but with no time limit.
3. You can now take a break or log out or whatever you want except for joining another tournament.
4. Enter queue and play a single match.
5. If lose, you're out and can go back to Step 1. If win, get 1 prize pack and go to Step 3.

I haven't checked the math yet to see if the open-ended structure works out or not, but if it does it is much much cleaner than having a limit and is also much cleaner than having tiered queues (like in the linked thread).

Kroan
04-21-2014, 01:42 PM
I think for a async tournament you always want a swiss queue that spans over 3 matches rather than a single elimination.

dogmod
04-21-2014, 01:44 PM
Async proposals that imitate 8-man brackets:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32002

Async method that abandons brackets:
1. Entry of 100p and 6 packs. Once you enter, you cannot join any other tournaments until you are eliminated from this one.
2. Build your Sealed deck as normal but with no time limit.
3. You can now take a break or log out or whatever you want except for joining another tournament.
4. Enter queue and play a single match.
5. If lose, you're out and can go back to Step 1. If win, get 1 prize pack and go to Step 3.

I haven't checked the math yet to see if the open-ended structure works out or not, but if it does it is much much cleaner than having a limit and is also much cleaner than having tiered queues (like in the linked thread).


I think you should clarify to say that you cannot enter another asynchronous sealed tournament. That is my understanding of your idea but it is not every explicit. I don't see any reason to lock someone out of draft just because they have built and asynchronous sealed deck.

I would also say that there should be no reason to stop someone from starting a new one if that meant that they forfeited their previous entry. This might lead to deck shopping but the fact is that if someone did want to play a deck they could just intentionally lose 3 in a row. So if that option is available to someone you should let them forfeit their deck if they don't like it.

dogmod
04-21-2014, 01:45 PM
I think for a async tournament you always want a swiss queue that spans over 3 matches rather than a single elimination.

As much as some people don't like Hearthstone their arena model is the correct model for Asynchronous I think. 9-3 or 12-3 or 6-3 whatever you want it to be but basically you keep playing until you hit a max of either losses or wins. I think it makes for a fun play experience and a fun streaming experience too as you watch someone climb up in the wins.

Kroan
04-21-2014, 01:46 PM
As much as some people don't like Hearthstone their arena model is the correct model for Asynchronous I think. 9-3 or 12-3 or 6-3 whatever you want it to be but basically you keep playing until you hit a max of either losses or wins. I think it makes for a fun play experience and a fun streaming experience too as you watch someone climb up in the wins.

SolForge has also async, and works with a swiss-style. I like that much more than Hearthstone's arena. I can't be bothered to play with a sealed deck for more than 3~4 rounds. Having to play 12 rounds (possible up to 36 games) will kill the fun right out of it for me.

Remember that Hearthstone games usually take up a fraction of the time of a game in Hex and is way less deep. Play 9 or 12 rounds of Hex will take you about 9 or 12 hours. Fun to watch on a stream let alone play? I don't think so

knightofeffect
04-21-2014, 01:50 PM
Async proposals that imitate 8-man brackets:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32002

Async method that abandons brackets:
1. Entry of 100p and 6 packs. Once you enter, you cannot join any other tournaments until you are eliminated from this one.
2. Build your Sealed deck as normal but with no time limit.
3. You can now take a break or log out or whatever you want except for joining another tournament.
4. Enter queue and play a single match.
5. If lose, you're out and can go back to Step 1. If win, get 1 prize pack and go to Step 3.

I haven't checked the math yet to see if the open-ended structure works out or not, but if it does it is much much cleaner than having a limit and is also much cleaner than having tiered queues (like in the linked thread).

I think you will find it does, as long as there is a max-win limit (IE 12 wins). However, I don't think you need to be eliminated after a single loss, more like go back to step 3 until you have 2 or three losses. The prize payout could be something like the following:
0-2 = nothing
1-2 = common chest
2-2 = 200g (no idea how much more/less this will be worth than a common chest)
3-2 = 1 pack
4-2 = 1 pack + 200g
5-2 = 1 pack + consumable (IE free spin)
6-2 = 2 packs
7-2 = 2 packs + consumable
8-2 = 2 packs + consumable + 400g
9-2 = 2 packs + 2 consumables
10-2 = 3 packs
11-2 = 3 packs + consumable
12-2 = 3 packs + consumable + something really cool =D

I didn't do the math on it at all, but you could extrapolate the payouts needed for each record to approximate the 800plat/12-pack ratio that drafts are confirmed to have.

Another neat idea, CZE could implement a promotional period where you get some discount off the entrance fee (IE 175plat instead of 200plat) if you actually bring product to bust in the sealed. Also, with drafts at 100plat entrance fee and constructed at 300, wouldn't it just make sense to put asynchronous, keep what you bring, sealed at 200plat? =P

PS - Thanks for correcting my "5-packs" statement with "6-packs" in your step 1.

knightofeffect
04-21-2014, 01:54 PM
SolForge has also async, and works with a swiss-style. I like that much more than Hearthstone's arena. I can't be bothered to play with a sealed deck for more than 3~4 rounds. Having to play 12 rounds (possible up to 36 games) will kill the fun right out of it for me.

Remember that Hearthstone games usually take up a fraction of the time of a game in Hex and is way less deep. Play 9 or 12 rounds of Hex will take you about 9 or 12 hours. Fun to watch on a stream let alone play? I don't think so

This is a great point (although, I don't quite buy the way less deep part personally =P), but Hex is certainly a much slower paced game and could not stand up to 14 rounds with a single deck (MTG Grand Prix were killer). Perhaps the wins should be capped at 5 or 6 and losses capped at 1 or 2.

dogmod
04-21-2014, 01:54 PM
SolForge has also async, and works with a swiss-style. I like that much more than Hearthstone's arena. I can't be bothered to play with a sealed deck for more than 3~4 rounds. Having to play 12 rounds (possible up to 36 games) will kill the fun right out of it for me.

Remember that Hearthstone games usually take up a fraction of the time of a game in Hex and is way less deep. Play 9 or 12 rounds of Hex will take you about 9 or 12 hours. Fun to watch on a stream let alone play? I don't think so

What would people think about making these asynchronous matches one offs instead of the best of 3?

Yoss
04-21-2014, 02:00 PM
SolForge has also async, and works with a swiss-style. I like that much more than Hearthstone's arena. I can't be bothered to play with a sealed deck for more than 3~4 rounds. Having to play 12 rounds (possible up to 36 games) will kill the fun right out of it for me.

Remember that Hearthstone games usually take up a fraction of the time of a game in Hex and is way less deep. Play 9 or 12 rounds of Hex will take you about 9 or 12 hours. Fun to watch on a stream let alone play? I don't think so

The whole point of Async is that you don't play it in one big time block (unless you're loaded with free time). Each match stands by itself.

dogmod
04-21-2014, 02:03 PM
The whole point of Async is that you don't play it in one big time block (unless you're loaded with free time). Each match stands by itself.

I think that was more directed at me in terms of my comment on streaming. Your point is well made though for the general population.

knightofeffect
04-21-2014, 02:13 PM
What would people think about making these asynchronous matches one offs instead of the best of 3?

This could be a possible answer, but then I would no longer have the moral high-ground of "loosing nothing from the traditional sealed" and there would be a shred of validity added to the "oh-no, this is being dumbed down to the HS level".

dogmod
04-21-2014, 02:21 PM
This could be a possible answer, but then I would no longer have the moral high-ground of "loosing nothing from the traditional sealed" and there would be a shred of validity added to the "oh-no, this is being dumbed down to the HS level".

Somewhat less complex and vastly more entertaining and convenient. Let the curmudgeons curmudgeon.

LLCoolDave
04-21-2014, 02:43 PM
There is an inherent value discrepancy between unopened and opened booster packs solely on the back of the contents being unknown. The possibility of pulling a big money card from an unopened pack is worth something on its own that's hard to quanitfy because it includes psychological effects. The market price of booster contents can never exceed the cheapest cost of obtaining them (currently: Draft at 133p each at retail value, probably closer to 120p-125p with secondary market value in mind) and in reality, will probably be a significant bit below that because of a supply/demand discrepancy (the contents of the draft boosters often land in the hands of people that have no use for them and just want to sell them to afford more drafts in the future), marginal value of multiple copies of cards (there's no meaningful reason to own more than 4 copies of any given card in a digital environment) and other factors.

Freebird_Falcon
04-21-2014, 02:46 PM
I was a big fan of the 4 pack sealed mtgo was running back when the fee was packs only.

The payout on that was 5,3,3,3,1,1,1,0 IIRC. 17 pack prize support with no "entry fee." :O /gasp

Yoss
04-21-2014, 02:47 PM
Async proposals that imitate 8-man brackets:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32002

Async method that abandons brackets:
1. Entry of 100p and 6 packs. Once you enter, you cannot join any other tournaments until you are eliminated from this one.
2. Build your Sealed deck as normal but with no time limit.
3. You can now take a break or log out or whatever you want except for joining another tournament.
4. Enter queue and play a single match.
5. If lose, you're out and can go back to Step 1. If win, get 1 prize pack and go to Step 3.

I haven't checked the math yet to see if the open-ended structure works out or not, but if it does it is much much cleaner than having a limit and is also much cleaner than having tiered queues (like in the linked thread).

Update on the math, I did some crude excel approximation and the price per prize pack (entry fees divided by prize packs) converges quickly to 100p, which makes sense. For every entry, you give out a pack to someone. So it's actually a harsher fee structure than regular Sealed. Perhaps some tweaks are needed.

Gwaer
04-21-2014, 02:48 PM
I was a big fan of the 4 pack sealed mtgo was running back when the fee was packs only.


The payout on that was 5,3,3,3,1,1,1,0 IIRC. 17 pack prize support with no "entry fee." :O /gasp


That was a promo to make mtgo relevant and create packs for a reasonable economy. Hex needs the opposite. Too much digital merch will already be available.

Freebird_Falcon
04-21-2014, 02:59 PM
That was a promo to make mtgo relevant and create packs for a reasonable economy. Hex needs the opposite. Too much digital merch will already be available.

that 4 pack queue poofed in dec 2012. mtgo wasn't relevant 2 years ago? :/

f5shooter
04-21-2014, 03:33 PM
MTGO currently has 4 booster sealed swiss tournaments that pay out 6-3-3-3-1-1-1 in booster packs.

http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/68/=THSBlock4-BoosterSealed

Gwaer
04-21-2014, 03:45 PM
Each new set usually has a special tournament that's solely about producing packs to keep prices reasonable and the digital economy moving. They've used to same strategy for years. Their formats change pretty regularly to help the economy move, which as I said hex's economy needs to move in the other direction. We have too much product. When a new set launches in magic they have too little.


MTGO currently has 4 booster sealed swiss tournaments that pay out 6-3-3-3-1-1-1 in booster packs.


http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/68/=THSBlock4-BoosterSealed

thats a 2 dollar event too, which I'm not against at all.

Ebynfel
04-21-2014, 03:56 PM
I hope they consider 4 pack sealed. It's very challenging and fun imo. Almost guaranteed to be playing 3 shards

Freebird_Falcon
04-21-2014, 03:58 PM
MTGO currently has 4 booster sealed swiss tournaments that pay out 6-3-3-3-1-1-1 in booster packs.

http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/68/=THSBlock4-BoosterSealed

Yeah, though it has a 2 tix fee now. My point was the packs are part of the tournament fee and payout value. As long as packs out < packs in, profit is generated because there is a deficit of packs that must come from the content creator. Sure, fee beyond entry packs pays for prize support, but thinking it's mandatory is comparing it to being a store owner. The store owner must pay the content creator for additional packs and if the players don't make up that value, then the store owner must. However, when the content creator is also the store, they are not required to pay as they are creating the prize value directly.


(assume everyone starts from scratch. it's set 4)
Draft: 24 packs in -> 12 packs out. 50% deficit that must be purchased from the creator for another draft to begin. $24 +$8 required to fire again
Sealed: 48 packs in -> 12 packs out. 75% deficit to fill another sealed event. $72 +$8 required to fire again.

Yes, Crypto may make more money, but players will quickly realize the significant value difference.

Even in that 4 pack sealed queue, it was 32 packs in, 17 out. 46% pack deficit.

Freebird_Falcon
04-21-2014, 03:59 PM
I hope they consider 4 pack sealed. It's very challenging and fun imo. Almost guaranteed to be playing 3 shards

Agreed. I really enjoyed it.

sukebe
04-21-2014, 04:42 PM
I think I would enjoy that 4 pack $2 entry fee sealed. Seems like it would be challenging and fun.

f5shooter
04-21-2014, 07:55 PM
I think I would enjoy that 4 pack $2 entry fee sealed. Seems like it would be challenging and fun.

It would be great! But not at 3-2-2-2-1-1-1.

Gwaer
04-21-2014, 08:03 PM
If they increase the entry fee to 2 bucks then there's room to increase the prize support.

sukebe
04-21-2014, 11:06 PM
It would be great! But not at 3-2-2-2-1-1-1.

I don't see a problem with using the same prize structure as the magic drafts that were mentioned by you (6-3-3-3-1-1-1)

Malicus
04-21-2014, 11:18 PM
I don't think you can really exclude a part of the entry fee for a tournament from prize support discussions. The boosters needed to enter draft or sealed are a form of currency that allow you to continue playing which once spent cannot be recovered directly. It is also important to include discussion of the cards opened as part of the pay out structure but it is somewhat misleading to consider them opened packs since they lose many of the most relevant properties which give a pack value.

The value of time also needs to be looked at in different ways depending on the context of your discussion. For a high end grinder looking to derive maximum returns on playtime time is a cost however for the person playing purely for enjoyment time is a benefit not a cost (maximising the number of tournaments maximises leisure time). For the majority of people (I hope) time will be a benefit rather than a cost because they actually enjoy the formats.

The ability to continue playing a limited format is a major factor for many people and a prize structure which does not reflect this (by ignoring part of the entry requirement) is sure to suffer for it in terms of participation.

Going infinite is the dream of most limited players though unattainable by most, however continuing to play for the smallest amount possible is relevant to everyone and can be make or break in whether or not someone plays at all. If your preferred format is sealed and you will have to pay for 3 of every 4 rather than 1 in 2 tournaments like a draft player you may not play at all.

f5shooter
04-22-2014, 05:06 AM
Each new set usually has a special tournament that's solely about producing packs to keep prices reasonable and the digital economy moving. They've used to same strategy for years. Their formats change pretty regularly to help the economy move, which as I said hex's economy needs to move in the other direction. We have too much product. When a new set launches in magic they have too little.



thats a 2 dollar event too, which I'm not against at all.

This really has to be pointed out??

ALL MTGO tournaments cost 2 tickets.

If you play in a DRAFT swiss you bring 3 packs and TWO tickets
If you play in a SEALED swiss you bring 4 packs and TWO tickets.

The payouts ARE NOT THE SAME.

http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/68/=M14DraftSwiss

http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/68/=M144-BoosterSealed

Arbiter
04-22-2014, 03:21 PM
Please don't increase the cost. I don't care if the rewards are the same, sealed provides some features that draft doesn't. Firstly, and importantly given the number of kickstarter boosters, it provides the most time and cost efficient way to open boosters and build the collection short of just opening them. Down the track, it is also the best way to see and evaluate-in-play new sets. Thirdly, while more random, it avoids the "king making" aspect of draft, where some people get better pick options than others based on their proximity to those players picking cards based on monetary value.

Sealed doesn't need an elevated prize pool to make it more attractive. The cost and price is good enough. Doubling the entry fee would be a hindrance to play rather than an incentive. If prize support isn't good enough to get you in, don't play.

sukebe
04-22-2014, 08:50 PM
Please don't increase the cost. I don't care if the rewards are the same, sealed provides some features that draft doesn't. Firstly, and importantly given the number of kickstarter boosters, it provides the most time and cost efficient way to open boosters and build the collection short of just opening them. Down the track, it is also the best way to see and evaluate-in-play new sets. Thirdly, while more random, it avoids the "king making" aspect of draft, where some people get better pick options than others based on their proximity to those players picking cards based on monetary value.

Sealed doesn't need an elevated prize pool to make it more attractive. The cost and price is good enough. Doubling the entry fee would be a hindrance to play rather than an incentive. If prize support isn't good enough to get you in, don't play.

Very well said, I hadn't thought of some of the things you mentioned. Glad to see someone else mention the time aspect, though many people seem to feel it is of no consequence.

Malicus
04-22-2014, 09:29 PM
Very well said, I hadn't thought of some of the things you mentioned. Glad to see someone else mention the time aspect, though many people seem to feel it is of no consequence.

The reason to open packs in limited over cracking is for value, if your concern is speed and you trade the value of draft for the speed of sealed it may be that you really should have just cracked packs anyway.

Yoss
04-22-2014, 10:15 PM
Very well said, I hadn't thought of some of the things you mentioned. Glad to see someone else mention the time aspect, though many people seem to feel it is of no consequence.

Gwaer brought up the time aspect quite a few posts back already, and I did a calculation on the time vs money saved.

Gwaer
04-22-2014, 10:18 PM
Right, but your calculation is ridiculous, you open twice as many packs in a sealed match, you're basically playing 2 drafts from a pack opening standpoint, so if you want to open your packs quicker, but still benefit from tournament payouts, sealed is by far the choice to go for. you're not saving 20 minutes, you're saving the time of an entire draft.

sukebe
04-22-2014, 11:33 PM
The reason to open packs in limited over cracking is for value, if your concern is speed and you trade the value of draft for the speed of sealed it may be that you really should have just cracked packs anyway.

Edit: I was going to explain why this isnt the case necessarily, but Gwear did already just above me so I will be lazy and leave it at that :-)


Gwaer brought up the time aspect quite a few posts back already, and I did a calculation on the time vs money saved.

Ah, thank you, I had forgotten that was this thread :-) However, I must disagree with your numbers. You are saving way more than 20 mins, you are saving at least 80 mins and up to 200. With sealed you get a chance to earn extra packs, but at half the time (as you are only playing in half as many tournaments).

As I mentioned before, playing in 2 drafts will earn you just $1-$5 more (the cost of 1-3 packs minus the extra $1 entry fee). If you are playing to maximize your profit/cards then you need to ask yourself: Is your time worth ~$1 an hour? I make what little spending money I have by selling used stuff online, but even I make more than that an hour doing it. I imagine that many people who play games like this make considerably more than that.

If you are playing for the love of the format and/or game then why would $1-$5 stop you from doing what you love?

Gwaer
04-22-2014, 11:40 PM
It might be worth it to some people to eek out every cent by doing drafts, but others would rather open more packs, for slightly less value and play a tournament type they enjoy more than draft by doing sealed. Still others will just open all of their packs, buy singles, and head to constructed. None of those are wrong, unless you're not enjoying the option you chose, in which case you should probably try a different one.

BlackRoger
04-23-2014, 03:58 AM
Because I like sealed and agree with the OP I checked on the net how MTGO handles this.
I found this article http://www.draftmagic.com/2010/12/08/the-economics-of-magic-the-gathering-online/
according to which the rewards for a 4 boosters sealed is 17 boosters instead of 12, which averages the amount of money paid for boosters/entry to money gained in prizes ratio to almost exactly as much as in their drafts.

So, just saying, if this article is correct then this is a problem that wizards recognized and added additional prizes for.
I would be very happy if such a solution would be brought to Hex as well.
Ofc the article is a little old so I don't know if its 100% relevant.

Edit: Apparently these 4 boosters sealed events were reworked to require double entry fee, but 18 reward boosters, which brings it to being just a little worse then an 8-4 according to this other article:
http://puremtgo.com/articles/value-new-4-booster-sealed-events-0?fb_comment_id=fbc_445569052202776_2791753_448372 218589126#fbe52078de044

Xtopher
06-07-2014, 07:53 PM
Sorry to rez this, but I missed the discussion when it was originally going and just started exploring the competitive play options today.

These are my main issues with regards to sealed payout:

1. CZE takes in 48 boosters, but only pays out 12. This is a huge imbalance. Compare this to drafts where CZE takes in 24 boosters, but pays out 12.
2. When many people enter a tournament they do so with the hope that they'll win enough boosters to play again, without having to purchase more. This isn't possible with Swiss Sealed.
3. I understand the arguments about the platinum fee being the same, but since an unopened booster is worth much more than an opened booster (due to the increased utility of an unopened booster), the cost to enter the Sealed events are almost double that of drafts. This seems grossly unfair to players that want to play sealed.

Of the above, #2 is probably the most important.

That said, if CZE isn't interested in promoting sealed events and wants to concentrate on drafting, that's their call and I'm okay with it, just means I'll be playing some other game and that's probably a win/win/win for everyone. However, I've seen the sealed queue languish with 0 people in it and if CZE offered a payout commensurate with the payout ratio in drafts, I think they'd be pleased with the increased rate of queue firing. My expectation is the queue would fire more than twice as often as it does now.

I've got a decade's worth of experience playing on MTGO and almost a decade prior to that playing cardboard Magic, so I'm really familiar with tournament systems and payouts. Sealed payouts seem designed for sealed play to fail as a viable alternative to draft.

Yoss
06-07-2014, 08:00 PM
As it stands now, where Sealed is synchronous, I agree. The key thing that Sealed should/will offer is asynchronous play, where you can break up your tournament into four hour-or-less segments. Once we have that, I think things will be just fine.

(For a description of what "asynchronous" means, use the Features List in my sig.)

Xtopher
06-07-2014, 08:15 PM
Yoss, are you saying it would be like Hearthstone where you keep playing your sealed deck until you lose 3 times, with prizes increasing with each win? If so, I would totally support that and would play sealed constantly.

Though, if it's still limited to 3 rounds and only pays out 3 boosters for first place, I'm not sure how that mitigates the low payout. I think the queue might be marginally more popular, but it would be a very slim margin.

ossuary
06-07-2014, 08:32 PM
Keep in mind that in the future, there are going to be additional game queues. Right now, the only competitive payout is 5-3-2-2 (because they want to have more people earning packs early on so it's a more forgiving curve). Once there are enough players to not have to worry about splitting the player base, there will be 8-4 queues as well. Maybe sealed will even get bonus packs above 12 to make up for the higher pack cost of entry, who knows?

This is not the final picture.

When you consider that Magic draft tournaments are still, what, $15 a person? And the payout is the same 12 packs? CZE is being pretty generous to only charge $1 on top of the 3 packs for draft. Yeah, sealed could be better... but I'm sure it will be, given time. It's not so much a matter of CZE trying to focus ONLY on draft, and more a matter of them having to, because they can't split the player base right now. Draft is what most people want to play, because it's the more competitive and satisfying format, for most people.

Xtopher
06-07-2014, 08:58 PM
Keep in mind that in the future, there are going to be additional game queues. Right now, the only competitive payout is 5-3-2-2 (because they want to have more people earning packs early on so it's a more forgiving curve). Once there are enough players to not have to worry about splitting the player base, there will be 8-4 queues as well. Maybe sealed will even get bonus packs above 12 to make up for the higher pack cost of entry, who knows?

This is not the final picture.

When you consider that Magic draft tournaments are still, what, $15 a person? And the payout is the same 12 packs? CZE is being pretty generous to only charge $1 on top of the 3 packs for draft. Yeah, sealed could be better... but I'm sure it will be, given time. It's not so much a matter of CZE trying to focus ONLY on draft, and more a matter of them having to, because they can't split the player base right now. Draft is what most people want to play, because it's the more competitive and satisfying format, for most people.
If they're thinking they don't want to split the player base, then I can understand that. I'm not making a final judgment based on the current state of affairs.

I guess I view tournaments in terms of payout ratio, rather than initial cost to enter (within reason). I don't know if I'm in the majority on that with regard to Hex, but that's been the predominant philosophy with MTGO. So, yes, it's true MTGO costs twice as much to enter, but then it pays out boosters that are valued twice as much in their online store.

I don't intend this as a hardcore complaint or whine, but the prize structure of sealed prices me out of that format. I'm okay with that, but I'd be more than okay if the prizes were adjusted to what some people would consider the norm.

Yoss
06-07-2014, 09:29 PM
Yoss, are you saying it would be like Hearthstone where you keep playing your sealed deck until you lose 3 times, with prizes increasing with each win? If so, I would totally support that and would play sealed constantly.

Though, if it's still limited to 3 rounds and only pays out 3 boosters for first place, I'm not sure how that mitigates the low payout. I think the queue might be marginally more popular, but it would be a very slim margin.

I said to follow the link if you didn't know what I was saying....
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32002

It's NOT like HS, it's what you said in your 2nd paragraph.

Xtopher
06-07-2014, 09:55 PM
I said to follow the link if you didn't know what I was saying....
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32002

It's NOT like HS, it's what you said in your 2nd paragraph.
I don't think lack of 4 hour blocks of play time is what's holding back the sealed queue. However adopting the HS model would be the optimal fix and would make it a very popular format.

I admit a 50% payout ratio, across the board, for all limited formats would be very generous on CZE's part. From my experience, 40% would be the sweet spot for both players and CZE. For example, Swiss Sealed with a payout of 10-5-2-2 or 8-6-3-3 would be perfect for a 3 round, 6 booster entry format. If something flatter is desired that pays deeper then 7-3-3-3-1-1-1-0 would be workable.

Yoss
06-07-2014, 10:18 PM
I don't think lack of 4 hour blocks of play time is what's holding back the sealed queue. However adopting the HS model would be the optimal fix and would make it a very popular format.

I can only speak for myself, but I'd be playing Sealed like mad if it was asynchronous. Way more than I play Draft.

Oroniss
06-08-2014, 01:44 AM
Yeah, I would play a lot more draft, and play some sealed if they were asynchronous. I really love sealed, especially in a new set.

I rarely draft beyond the free tickets at the moment since I can't set aside 3-4 hour blocks of time very often. I could easily set aside an hour a night though.

I'm looking forward to them implementing both options, and will play a lot of both when they do.

sukebe
06-08-2014, 03:47 PM
Sorry to rez this, but I missed the discussion when it was originally going and just started exploring the competitive play options today.

These are my main issues with regards to sealed payout:

1. CZE takes in 48 boosters, but only pays out 12. This is a huge imbalance. Compare this to drafts where CZE takes in 24 boosters, but pays out 12.
2. When many people enter a tournament they do so with the hope that they'll win enough boosters to play again, without having to purchase more. This isn't possible with Swiss Sealed.
3. I understand the arguments about the platinum fee being the same, but since an unopened booster is worth much more than an opened booster (due to the increased utility of an unopened booster), the cost to enter the Sealed events are almost double that of drafts. This seems grossly unfair to players that want to play sealed.

Of the above, #2 is probably the most important.

That said, if CZE isn't interested in promoting sealed events and wants to concentrate on drafting, that's their call and I'm okay with it, just means I'll be playing some other game and that's probably a win/win/win for everyone. However, I've seen the sealed queue languish with 0 people in it and if CZE offered a payout commensurate with the payout ratio in drafts, I think they'd be pleased with the increased rate of queue firing. My expectation is the queue would fire more than twice as often as it does now.

I've got a decade's worth of experience playing on MTGO and almost a decade prior to that playing cardboard Magic, so I'm really familiar with tournament systems and payouts. Sealed payouts seem designed for sealed play to fail as a viable alternative to draft.

CZE doesnt "take in any boosters". You, the player, keep the contents of those boosters. Draft is a "better deal" when it comes to packs you can win, sealed is best if you have only a small amount of time but still want to open all your packs in tournaments.

It has been stated probably over 100x in this thread alone but prizes come from the entry fee only. This is true in real life tournaments and it should be true in online tournaments. This maintains a set rate in which boosters can be earned compared to plat spent.

why is this so hard to understand? Why would CZE (whose sole guaranteed source of income is plat, since packs can be won instead of paid for) increase prizes just because you are using more packs? If you want more packs then ask for a format with a higher plat entry cost.

Shivdaddy
06-08-2014, 07:19 PM
Why does everyone on message boards think they are smarter than game creators/designers? Its obvious that CZE is pushing people towards draft right now (their choice). We are speaking with our wallets right now (they dont fire) and they know they are unpopular. There is a chance they have something big planned and they do not want anyone getting too attached to the current sealed turnies, therefore making them unattractive. Now when they launch the new sealed format and increase payout everyone will be happy. We are still in "beta" and they might think its a good idea to just have its players focus on one format, which happens to be their cash cow.


Get ready for this in the next decade, its an old MTGO trick. Say prizes are 20 packs for tournament X. Next thing you know they launch a similar tournament (replacing the old) and make the prizes 16 packs. People complain, like we always do and when the next tournament structure change comes about they increase prizes to 18 packs! OMG, Hex is so great they INCREASED prizes! When in reality they just decreased payout 2 packs over a year or so of changes.

I am just ready for leagues!

Xtopher
06-08-2014, 09:23 PM
CZE doesnt "take in any boosters". You, the player, keep the contents of those boosters. Draft is a "better deal" when it comes to packs you can win, sealed is best if you have only a small amount of time but still want to open all your packs in tournaments.

It has been stated probably over 100x in this thread alone but prizes come from the entry fee only. This is true in real life tournaments and it should be true in online tournaments. This maintains a set rate in which boosters can be earned compared to plat spent.

why is this so hard to understand? Why would CZE (whose sole guaranteed source of income is plat, since packs can be won instead of paid for) increase prizes just because you are using more packs? If you want more packs then ask for a format with a higher plat entry cost.
I have no problem paying more plat. The thing is, it doesn't matter if YOU don't consider boosters part of the entry fee. I guarantee you CZE calculates it that way. And that's how anyone that's been playing limited events for any length of time calculates it.

And Shivdaddy, I did acknowledge in my first post on this subject that CZE perhaps had a purposeful reason for not supporting sealed. Ditto on the leagues or an asynchronous HS type sealed tourney system.

Turtlewing
06-09-2014, 12:14 PM
If the only value in an unopened pack is its contents, then the math would bear that out, and in fact I did adress just such a case in my previous post (see the 67p section). There is no fair or unfair. Either the value of an unopened pack is greater than its conents will be once opened, or it is not, or they are equal. There are no other options.

If an unopened pack is worth less than its contents, then players will start cracking packs and selling the contents until this is no longer true.

If an unopened pack is worth more than its contents, then it is probably because you can play Limited with an unopened pack but not with an open one. (If you have another hypothesis, feel free to share.)

If an unopened pack is worth exactly the sum of its contents, then playing Limited is never worth it (except for the intangible fun value) because you could get the same value in a tiny fraction of the time by just cracking packs. You'll also be sitting at around 67p value on the AH which seems too low to be credible except maybe while the KS packs flood in.

If an unopened pack were worth more than it's contents people would not open them, and prices for singles would increase as flow of new cards into the economy dries up.

To a limited player unopened packs have more utility, but to a constructed player packs have nearly 0 utility until they're opened.

In the market as a whole the equilibrium should be that packs on average have equal value to their contents, as any arbitrage between pack and single values would be exploited by either players opening packs to sell singles, or players not cracking packs which would drive up price for singles due to constricted supply.

As such the "value lost" in opening more packs should not really exist, as you should be able to sell the contents of those packs for roughly what they cost you on the open market.

Yoss
06-09-2014, 12:48 PM
If an unopened pack were worth more than it's contents people would not open them, and prices for singles would increase as flow of new cards into the economy dries up.

To a limited player unopened packs have more utility, but to a constructed player packs have nearly 0 utility until they're opened.

In the market as a whole the equilibrium should be that packs on average have equal value to their contents, as any arbitrage between pack and single values would be exploited by either players opening packs to sell singles, or players not cracking packs which would drive up price for singles due to constricted supply.

As such the "value lost" in opening more packs should not really exist, as you should be able to sell the contents of those packs for roughly what they cost you on the open market.

If an unopened pack were worth more than its contents, people (who care about value) would not open them outside of Limited, which is exactly what happens. Prices from singles do not go up, because Limited is supplying the market. The possibility of "players not cracking packs" will not happen as long as Limited is popular (it is, and will be). Therefore, you are missing one of the two competing mechanisms in your proposed model, which will lead you to instead land where I said, with closed packs worth more than open ones by some (possibly small) amount.

As for the math behind what you just quoted from me, it's in the Booster Price Analysis thread:


the value [of an unopened booster] is variable based on AH price, by formula:
C := value of contents of an average basic pack
DF := Draft entry fee per player
B := AH price of basic booster [unopened]

C <= (8*DF + 12*B)/24

with constraint B >= C (closed booster must be worth at least the value of its contents).

If we push B to the limit of that constraint (where B=C), we get a price of 67p. That limit can only hold while there is a large supply of cheap boosters (KS rewards, VIP, etc). After that, the AH supply will dry up and people will be forced to buy retail, pushing AH price above the 126p lower bound calculated in this post and up towards the 186p upper bound from Post 2.

The corollary ... is basically that one should always draft in order to open packs, assuming one values money over time. (The extra value gained is earned through the time spent drafting.)

Turtlewing
06-09-2014, 02:49 PM
Yoss,

You're getting tunnel vision again (your experiences and preferences aren't representative of the big picture).

In the real world limited play will make up a pretty small fraction of the long-term player base. The demand for singles will be primarily driven by PvE and constructed players. Draft and Sealed won't meet that demand (back of the envelope I'd say 1/4 of gameplay will be limited tournaments, with 1/2 being PvE and 1/4 being constructed formats (including things like unranked proving grounds play)).

You've also ignored collectors, (who buy a couple boxes every release and crack them immediately).

Your assumption that most people value money more that time, is pretty shaky as well. And in the end you're showing me an equation that assumes B >= C (not the derivation that that must be true) and telling me I'm wrong when I say I expect B and C to be close to equal (with any difference being primarily to due to market inefficiency).

What your argument actually is, is that opening packs outside of limited has the largest opportunity cost (could have entered a limited tournament for a chance at more packs), and opening packs in sealed has increased opportunity cost over opening them in draft (could have entered 2 drafts instead of one sealed event).

But that's an oversimplification (each of those option has an increased direct cost that is more relevant to the decision than the opportunity cost), and not something that should have any bearing on prize support (prize support is determined by the entry fee).

Werlix
06-09-2014, 03:14 PM
If an unopened pack were worth more than it's contents people would not open them, and prices for singles would increase as flow of new cards into the economy dries up.

To a limited player unopened packs have more utility, but to a constructed player packs have nearly 0 utility until they're opened.

In the market as a whole the equilibrium should be that packs on average have equal value to their contents, as any arbitrage between pack and single values would be exploited by either players opening packs to sell singles, or players not cracking packs which would drive up price for singles due to constricted supply.

As such the "value lost" in opening more packs should not really exist, as you should be able to sell the contents of those packs for roughly what they cost you on the open market.

Unopened packs will be worth more than opened packs because their price is set at 200 plat, they are required for limited, and their contents get less and less desirable as more cards enter the market and constructed players are completing their decks.

Most competitive constructed players will complete their deck(s) and from then, they don't really need to obtain any more cards and thus opening a booster is a waste of time, and card sellers will have to lower their prices to shift their excess cards.


If an unopened pack were worth more than it's contents people would not open them

But people will continue opening them regardless, because it's compulsory for draft.

The impact PvE will have will be interesting to see though. It should help to keep single prices up and thus the value of opened boosters shouldn't be too far below unopened boosters. But I think you might be underestimating the impact of limited play on the market.

ossuary
06-09-2014, 04:21 PM
Constructed players who don't need any more packs but keep winning packs will also introduce even more cheap packs into the system, since the only thing you can do with them besides opening them is sell them (or, as a quasi-third option, hang on to them until as close to forever as is feasible to maximize what you can sell them for, THEN sell them).

It's very reasonable to expect the contents of packs to be worth slightly more than a pack can be bought for, but less than the list price of a pack. There will be lots of fluctuations up and down based on various factors (compulsion and fun in addition to more mundane market forces), but there will be an ultimate price ceiling on the average contents of the average pack of 200 plat (though it will in all likelihood be quite a bit less than this), plus or minus a few cents. Any time the value of the contents is more than that, people will snatch up packs and drive it back down. Any time it is worth less, people will stop buying as many packs and use up stockpiles until the equilibrium is reached again.

I will be truly interested to find out how many actual non-tournament-generated boosters will be sold in the store by CZE, as compared to boosters bought on the AH that came from tournament prizes. Personally, I've got the population pegged at about 2 players who use and produce nothing but tournament packs for every 8 who buy everything from the AH and never go to CZE directly for anything except platinum (or are completely F2P and never pay a cent at all). I honestly couldn't even begin to guess what the ratio of F2P vs AH-buyers would be, though.

Xtopher
06-09-2014, 04:45 PM
I will be truly interested to find out how many actual non-tournament-generated boosters will be sold in the store by CZE, as compared to boosters bought on the AH that came from tournament prizes. Personally, I've got the population pegged at about 2 players who use and produce nothing but tournament packs for every 8 who buy everything from the AH and never go to CZE directly for anything except platinum (or are completely F2P and never pay a cent at all). I honestly couldn't even begin to guess what the ratio of F2P vs AH-buyers would be, though.
At some point, once the KS boosters are expended, if no one ever cracks a booster outside an event the number of boosters sold in the store will be equal to the # of boosters opened in all events minus the number of prizes given out. Obviously, though, a lot of people crack boosters, especially when new sets are released, so I'd guess the number of boosters sold in the store will be about double my calculation above.

Edit: Dammit, you know, I forgot about the free draft per week people, so I actually have no idea how many the store will sell. If Hex ends up being more popular than MTGO, based on estimates of MTGO boosters sold per year, the number will be very big.

Yoss
06-09-2014, 06:52 PM
you're showing me an equation that assumes B >= C
The equation does not assume the constraint. The equation is valid regardless of the constraint being applied or not. My equation is:
C <= (8*DF + 12*B)/24
It is valid because it is derived directly from the Draft cost/prize structure. B >= C is just a constraint that you can remove if you want, but the equation will remain. You can set B to any positive number you like and find an upper limit on C. If C > B somehow (I assert it won't happen), then the price B must be below 67p.

It is useful to note that C in the equation is "the average cost of obtaining the contents of a booster pack if the pack is opened in Draft". This could hypothetically be separate from C defined as "the average cost of obtaining the content of a booster pack through AH purchases of the individual components". However, if C(AH) > C(D), then even the average prizes for Draft exceed the average cost to join and even an average player (1.5 EV) could "go infinite" in Draft. In other words, Draft would become free to play (or even profitable). In that case I'd expect Draft participation to increase (dramatically), driving up demand for closed boosters and driving up supply of open boosters, both of which will counteract C(AH) > C(D) and cause it to flip sign to the more reasonable C(AH) <= C(D).


As for what my argument is:

1. Some players will want to play Limited. Those players will value closed packs more than open ones (C<B), because that's what they need for entry. That C versus B value spread from those players will be reflected in the market price, proportional to the market leverage those players represent.

2. The remaining players will value packs only for their contents (C=B). If C<B, then those players will buy C rather than B because it nets them the same result in equal time with less money. This will push towards C>=B. Also vice versa, so this player type will push towards C=B equilibrium.

3. If C=B behavior were to win over C<B, then you'd have either booster prices depressed to match C (B=67p) or you'd have contents inflated to match B (C(AH)>C(D)), neither of which is sustainable in the market. Why? In either case, Draft has become free to play for even an average player, so Draft participation will go up, so more players will become C<B type, so the market will move toward C<B. Also consider that if B=67p it means that even pro players in Constructed are losing money (4.5 EV barely breaks even), which sounds a bit crazy to me.

TOOT
06-10-2014, 12:11 PM
Bottom line is the Sealed prize ratio should eventually be equal to the draft prize ratio in regards to entry fee.

If draft has 800 plat and 24 boosters (100 plat and 3 boosters from 8 players each) collected/redeemed to run the draft and pays out 12 boosters (5-3-2-2)...

Sealed should have 800 plat and 48 boosters (100 plat and 6 boosters from 8 players each) collected/redeemed to run the draft and pays out 24 boosters (10-6-4-4).


I have a feeling if/when they introduce asynchronous sealed play, the prize structure will be ramped up. It is likely deincentivized now to steer current users towards booster drafts instead so they fill rather quickly with a smaller player base now than in 6 months.

Sealed should be strictly asynchronous and booster draft is fine the way it currently is.

Vorpal
06-10-2014, 01:17 PM
If an unopened pack were worth more than it's contents people would not open them, and prices for singles would increase as flow of new cards into the economy dries up.

That's a bit like saying if new cars were worth more than used cars people just wouldn't drive their cars.

You have to have unopened packs for draft and sealed.

So an unopened pack can do everything an opened pack can do, and more besides. Why wouldn't it be worth more? If you take something and add features to it, it becomes worth more money.

Additionally, when you take your packs into a tournament, they gain value because they spawn new prize packs. I think that's where most of the 'lost value' is coming from .

Turtlewing
06-10-2014, 01:36 PM
Bottom line is the Sealed prize ratio should eventually be equal to the draft prize ratio in regards to entry fee.

If draft has 800 plat and 24 boosters (100 plat and 3 boosters from 8 players each) collected/redeemed to run the draft and pays out 12 boosters (5-3-2-2)...

Sealed should have 800 plat and 48 boosters (100 plat and 6 boosters from 8 players each) collected/redeemed to run the draft and pays out 24 boosters (10-6-4-4).


The packs aren't lost when you play limited they're opened. If Sealed were to have the prize structure you suggest the entry fee needs to be 200 plat per person.


You have to have unopened packs for draft and sealed.

So an unopened pack can do everything an opened pack can do, and more besides. Why wouldn't it be worth more?

You do not however, have to play draft or sealed.

An unopened pack can't be included in a Constructed or PvE deck. Nor can it be spun on the wheel of fate.

Yoss
06-10-2014, 01:43 PM
Turtle, I can't tell if that response to Vorpal was actually serious.

EDIT:
In case you are, in fact, serious...

"You do not have to play X."
Obviously. Yet it doesn't change the statement "an unopened pack can do everything an opened pack can do, and more besides". Some players won't care about the "more besides", but some will. Because some will, the price will reflect that.

"An unopened pack can't... (do stuff that its contents can do)"
If a person only cares about the contents, he can just open it and do everything you've listed.

TOOT
06-10-2014, 01:55 PM
The packs aren't lost when you play limited they're opened. If Sealed were to have the prize structure you suggest the entry fee needs to be 200 plat per person.

The platinum fee could really be either if you view it as the rake. CZE would be making double off the sealed as opposed to limited if everyone bought boosters for either option from the store. I have no problem with it being 100 or 200.

Turtlewing
06-10-2014, 02:03 PM
Turtle, I can't tell if that response to Vorpal was actually serious.

Well, we'll call it even for your shuffler thread then.

The point I'm making is that you aren't "paying" anything when you open a pack.

If you assume the narrow view of a player who likes the limited format, you encounter an opportunity cost to opening a pack (not the same thing as an actual cost), but with PvE that's going to be a minority of players in Hex, and I don't think they'll drive the market the way you are assuming.

Xtopher
06-10-2014, 02:05 PM
The packs aren't lost when you play limited they're opened. If Sealed were to have the prize structure you suggest the entry fee needs to be 200 plat per person.
They are some backward notions in this thread on this issue. I'm not sure what's spawning them, other than perhaps inexperience with this sort of tournament model in an online TCG.

So based on your logic, that CZE is only collecting 800 platinum when a draft fires and the boosters are not part of the entry fee, CZE would be equally happy creating draft queues where no boosters are needed and players don't keep the contents of the "phantom" boosters they draft? I assure you, CZE sees boosters as very much part of the entry fee and I have no doubt going forward that event payouts will be reflecting the quantity of boosters required for them to launch.

Turtlewing
06-10-2014, 02:37 PM
They are some backward notions in this thread on this issue. I'm not sure what's spawning them, other than perhaps inexperience with this sort of tournament model in an online TCG.

So based on your logic, that CZE is only collecting 800 platinum when a draft fires and the boosters are not part of the entry fee, CZE would be equally happy creating draft queues where no boosters are needed and players don't keep the contents of the "phantom" boosters they draft? I assure you, CZE sees boosters as very much part of the entry fee and I have no doubt going forward that event payouts will be reflecting the quantity of boosters required for them to launch.

Sigh... Apples and Oranges.

No CZE doesn't see any difference from you buying 3 boosters and opening them then entering a phantom draft for 100 plat.

They would see the difference between you phantom drafting and not buying boosters. Which is why they don't want to add phantom drafts.

The entire analysis is:
Cost: Packs + Time + Entry Fee (platinum)
Benefit: Contents of packs + utility derived from playing a fun game + chance at prizes.

My point is that Packs and contents of packs cancel out. The rest is (time + entry fee) vs (fun + prizes)

Since fun and time should also cancel out, you get (entry fee) vs (prizes).

If you want more prizes you need a higher entry fee.

Yoss
06-10-2014, 02:40 PM
My point is that Packs and contents of packs cancel out.

Except when they don't.

I do agree with the conclusion though (more prizes needs higher fee).

sukebe
06-10-2014, 03:17 PM
Bottom line is the Sealed prize ratio should eventually be equal to the draft prize ratio in regards to entry fee.

If draft has 800 plat and 24 boosters (100 plat and 3 boosters from 8 players each) collected/redeemed to run the draft and pays out 12 boosters (5-3-2-2)...

Sealed should have 800 plat and 48 boosters (100 plat and 6 boosters from 8 players each) collected/redeemed to run the draft and pays out 24 boosters (10-6-4-4).


I have a feeling if/when they introduce asynchronous sealed play, the prize structure will be ramped up. It is likely deincentivized now to steer current users towards booster drafts instead so they fill rather quickly with a smaller player base now than in 6 months.

Sealed should be strictly asynchronous and booster draft is fine the way it currently is.

No, the bottom line is that isn't how it works. It isn't how real life TCG tournaments work and it isn't like how Hex should work. I was part of a tournament organizing group that ran most of the large scale events for Pokemon, Yugioh!, and MTG for over a decade. Prizes come not from the # of packs you enter with but from the entry fee paid. 800 plat in entry fees = 12 packs. want more prize packs? Pay more entry fees.

Banquetto
06-10-2014, 04:15 PM
Bottom line is the Sealed prize ratio should eventually be equal to the draft prize ratio in regards to entry fee.

Agreed 100%.

And since both types of tournament have an entry fee of 100p x 8 players, they should both have the same prizes. Which they do. So everything is right in the world.

TOOT
06-10-2014, 04:56 PM
No, the bottom line is that isn't how it works. It isn't how real life TCG tournaments work and it isn't like how Hex should work. I was part of a tournament organizing group that ran most of the large scale events for Pokemon, Yugioh!, and MTG for over a decade. Prizes come not from the # of packs you enter with but from the entry fee paid. 800 plat in entry fees = 12 packs. want more prize packs? Pay more entry fees.

lol just because a process was in place doesn't mean it's the correct one or changes could/should be made

the NFL commissioner must be an idiot because all his predecessors didn't believe or want to use Instant Replay

Have you ever played in a poker tournament? $10+1 tournament or a $200+10 tournament?? The entry fees do not automatically scale in exact proportion to the buyin.

Just because you choose to flaunt your super duper impressive resume doesn't mean you know what you are talking about.

TOOT
06-10-2014, 05:03 PM
The difference between this and other examples you are referring to is that all components of the entry fee (both platinum and boosters) are coming from the same source.

Somewhere, someway, someone obtained the boosters directly from CZE, the same company operating the drafts. This isn't like a B&M draft, where I can buy a case of boosters off EBay and walk into my local card shop and use them to enter a tournament that requires packs where the store is invariably getting snubbed as the profits from the purchased boosters are going to a different vendor.

cavench
06-10-2014, 05:07 PM
The difference between this and other examples you are referring to is that all components of the entry fee (both platinum and boosters) are coming from the same source.

The Bolded is where many will disagree with you.

https://hextcg.com/draft-tournament-overview/

Please see first sentence under the "How to Draft" section.

MatWith1T
06-10-2014, 05:09 PM
Agreed 100%.

And since both types of tournament have an entry fee of 100p x 8 players, they should both have the same prizes. Which they do. So everything is right in the world.

The entry fee isn't just 100p, its 6 packs and 100p... you get to keep the contents of those packs, but you still need to open them to enter, so its a fee. You can't use those 6 packs to enter another draft afterwards, you have to acquire 6 new unopened packs I'm in total agreement with you that the ratio should be the same, but sealed should have double fee/payout:

Draft costs $1 and 3 packs for a potential of 3-11 (3 opened, 0-8 unopened) packs as reward.
Sealed costs $1 and 6 packs for a potential of 6-14 (6 opened, 0-8 unopened) packs as a reward.
If we're keeping ratios the same, you'd expect double the potential for double the pack cost. It's not. But for a $2 entry and 16 packs for first, everything fits. (It makes Swiss payouts much more palatable too)

The humongous upside of Hex is the online access to a huge, global playerbase to play any format, any time. Friday Night Magic normally doesn't have enough bodies in most towns to let every person immediately sit down and play whatever format they want... Hex does. But the downside of that is every format is competing with the others to draw players. There's no draft night, or sealed night, or pauper deck night... everything can fire at once and people will choose the most attractive one. Sealed is already the least popular between itself, draft and constructed and will likely be the least played... there's no reason to make it even more unattractive by making it offer the least value for your packs/plat.

So while I agree they shouldn't just give away more reward packs, I do feel that the higher upfront cost of play should have a higher upside.

I really enjoy sealed - opinions may differ, but I think it is much more challenging than draft - and its disappointing that it is next to impossible to play in Hex. Given the free draft tickets and better rewards, there's no reason to play sealed unless you are willing to pay a premium to wait in a horrendously long queue to get the same stuff you would have in that instant draft queue.

cavench
06-10-2014, 05:25 PM
Even though I disagree that 6 boosters is part of the Seal entry fee, I know where you are coming from. I do feel the extra 3 boosters is wasted because I opened them in a seal tourney. There are 2 solutions I can think of:

1. This one has been suggested before by others. Make the entry fee 200 plats, and then double the prize payout.

2. Entry Fee 100 platinum and bring in 3 boosters. System provides 45 community cards that everyone can use to make their deck. These 45 community cards should somehow be fair to all shards/colorless. Community cards do not go into collection after tournament ends. This format will not be asynchronous however.

TOOT
06-10-2014, 05:39 PM
I have no problem with it being 200 platinum. Being 200 platinum is a better solution with a larger prize pool.

However, there is still an argument to be made that it can be double the prizes and staying at 100 platinum because the same "house" is benefiting from both parts of the entry. Again, if you could bring in packs from other sources then it is totally reasonable. Hex boosters can only be bought from one place, the same place running the tournaments.

If there was a tournament where the entry fee was 300 boosters instead of 3, should the entry fee be 10,000 platinum to get a 500/300/200/200 booster reward structure? With the amount of boosters purchased to enter that tourney, CZE is making a profit off that. They can then give more rewards as they are profiting more off a 300 booster entry than a 3 booster entry one. Again, it's the same entity profitting whether its sales of boosters or sales from platinum.

If they made hypothetically $1 profit per booster, they'd profit $24 in boosters from the current one, and $2400 in the latter. Surely they could offer a heftier reward out of pocket for the 2nd.

I wont drag this out any further as I'm saying the same thing over and over again and not trying to be disruptive, but there is another side to the coin people are ignoring.

WOtC gets the booster sales regardless where boosters are bought, where mom&pop only get the entry fee sales. Here CZE gets both, so the prizes don't have to be proportionate to the platinum entry fee.

Xtopher
06-10-2014, 08:07 PM
It's really simple: boosters are part of the entry fee. That's the case in paper TCG's, online TCG's, and it's the case in Hex. Any other argument is sophistry.

Ask anyone playing MTGO. Ask anyone who works for MTGO. Are boosters part of the entry fee and a factor in the # of prizes given? They'll tell you unequivocally, "YES". Are queues on MTGO valued by the percentage of boosters in vs. boosters out? Yes. Is this tournament system modeled on MTGO's? Yes. Does CZE consider boosters part of the entry fee? Yes.

I'm not sure how it benefits the community to argue for less prizes and supporting events that don't attract players. Have no idea how that helps CZE make a better game. But, there ya go. I found some like-minded people in this thread anyways and got some insight into where CZE is going and Yoss introduced me to some interesting ideas for asynchronous events so overall I guess it was worthwhile posting. Done now, for awhile.

sukebe
06-10-2014, 08:48 PM
It's really simple: boosters are part of the entry fee. That's the case in paper TCG's, online TCG's, and it's the case in Hex. Any other argument is sophistry.

Ask anyone playing MTGO. Ask anyone who works for MTGO. Are boosters part of the entry fee and a factor in the # of prizes given? They'll tell you unequivocally, "YES". Are queues on MTGO valued by the percentage of boosters in vs. boosters out? Yes. Is this tournament system modeled on MTGO's? Yes. Does CZE consider boosters part of the entry fee? Yes.

I'm not sure how it benefits the community to argue for less prizes and supporting events that don't attract players. Have no idea how that helps CZE make a better game. But, there ya go. I found some like-minded people in this thread anyways and got some insight into where CZE is going and Yoss introduced me to some interesting ideas for asynchronous events so overall I guess it was worthwhile posting. Done now, for awhile.

The answer is no, they do not count. I know this from experience. If we tried to give out extra pack prizes in mtg, yugioh, or pokemon the main companies would tell/ask us not to. The prizes are based on the entry fee because that is one of the many things that keeps cards and the boosters they come from valuable. you do not deserve extra prizes just because you opened (and keep) more of your packs. You just don't. CZE (or any other TCG company) have no logical or reasonable incentive to introduce extra packs into the economy because you opened more packs in a tournament.

I hope they make sealed cost 200 plat and 6 packs and double the prizes. That is perfectly fair. Double entry fee, double prizes. You even come out ahead when doing sealed this way since you are opening the same number of packs as 2 drafts, paying the same fee, but having to play only half the time.

Again, the only reasonable way to get increased prizes is to increase the entry fee as that is the ONLY thing that pays for said prizes.

Yoss
06-10-2014, 10:04 PM
Let's agree that 200p entry for 24 packs output is a good idea for Sealed, and then agree to disagree on everything else. :)

sukebe
06-10-2014, 11:15 PM
Let's agree that 200p entry for 24 packs output is a good idea for Sealed, and then agree to disagree on everything else. :)

I can do that :-) Consider it agreed. Hopefully we can see it implemented sometime soon so we don't have to see these threads continuously pop up.

Xtopher
06-10-2014, 11:38 PM
I'm fine with raising the entry fee. I'm also okay with keeping it the same and going with a 40% booster payout. Or I'm fine with a HS style sealed system.

The argument on booster packs as entry fees is coming down to personal experience and semantics. If you've played a lot of MTGO you see the booster as part of the entry fee. If you've played IRL store events that allow you to bring in boosters from outside the store to enter events with you don't. If you don't care about collecting and only care about playing in limited events you see boosters as an entry fee. If you value your opened booster as much as you value an unopened one you don't.

I guess coming from MTGO, all these discussions have already happened and been hashed out so it's a little surreal having to go back and argue basic assumptions. But new game, new attitudes. I can deal with that if it's a solution oriented discussion rather than arguing the nature of reality.

Ebynfel
06-11-2014, 12:58 AM
I realize this thread is super long, though I do want to give some food for thought even though I agree with sealed being a 200 plat entry and having double rewards. I just want to mention why.

regardless of how MtG:O and Hex are formatted as digital products with their rewards and prize support, having grown up playing Magic during it's formative years, I was one of the lucky few who was around while Booster Drafts and Sealed as we know it now was developed. By Players, not by Wizards. It all really came down to 1 thing. A booster box contained 36 unopened packs of cards.

Now, this is important, and the correlation I am sure is not missed. When Draft and Sealed were developed by constructed players, it was simply a means to making a fun, competitive way to open packs. This is where limited started, and where prize support, entry fee, etc all came from in a general sense. This is also where the birth of the 8-man pod came from. Simply, a group of 8 bought an appropriate number of boxes to allow all 8 to play. The rest of the packs were then prizes for the 'event' and all worked out as wee see today.

Draft = 24 packs. One booster box left 12 packs for prizes. Simple, effective. 8 players cover the box, they all have a good time, some leave with prizes.
Sealed = 48 packs. Two booster boxes leaves 24 unopened packs. Also simple. Cover the 2 boxes, everyone has fun and some leave with prizes.

The entry, overall for sealed should always correlate to double the entry for Draft.
My argument is this:
The actual cost of entry for 8 players to enter draft is the effective cost of 36 boosters for that event. Entry fee and packs open really have nothing to do with it. Entry fee is simply the cost left over from a discounted 36 packs that are bought as a unit in a box in brick and mortar stores, and where the format came from. Sealed did the same thing, just the number of boxes that were required for 8 people was doubled. Thus, the cost of 2 boxes instead of one.

In this instance, the pack cost is doubled, but the cost of the additional 12 boosters for prizes i nmy argument for sealed, leaves us with a pool of 60 packs rather than the requisite 72. And I think this is where people familiar with the style of play have their issues. Yes, the platinum fee would need to double in order for those extra 12 packs to be added to the 'total pack pool' of the event, but in the end it would boil down to the same thing.

Sealed, in it's purest breakdown, is twice as expensive, with twice the rewards of a draft. That's simply how it works when considering where the formats came from. In it's simplest description, it cost twice as much to run a sealed pod than a draft pod, and thus required twice as many packs. Which, in turn, rewarded twice as many.

I hope this made some sort of coherent sense, as the history of the formats here dictate it is not the platinum fee that determines prize support, but the cost of everything used in the event. 36 packs, a booster box, is the determining factor. 72 packs would be twice as expensive as 36, and the consumption ratio should equal out between sealed and draft. if twice the packs are consumed, then entry should be twice as much. As well as prizes.

As I said, based on the history of the two formats, to me, it would make me more comfortable if the entry for sealed was 200 plat, but offered double rewards. honestly, I think that the only reason why people see an EV issue here is because of the familiarity with the evolved state of these formats. As traditionally, entry fee and packs opened didnt matter. It was the raw cost of all packs used for the tournament, both opened and unopened, that determined the event cost. And should be the same here. The correlation between those 12 packs in sealed, and an equal 12 packs in draft for prizes seems a bit...wonky...in this instance because there doesn't seem to be an overlying equality in the cost of the packs being opened in this case. They're different, and it rubs people the wrong way subconsciously.

sukebe
06-11-2014, 03:53 AM
I'm fine with raising the entry fee. I'm also okay with keeping it the same and going with a 40% booster payout. Or I'm fine with a HS style sealed system.

The argument on booster packs as entry fees is coming down to personal experience and semantics. If you've played a lot of MTGO you see the booster as part of the entry fee. If you've played IRL store events that allow you to bring in boosters from outside the store to enter events with you don't. If you don't care about collecting and only care about playing in limited events you see boosters as an entry fee. If you value your opened booster as much as you value an unopened one you don't.

I guess coming from MTGO, all these discussions have already happened and been hashed out so it's a little surreal having to go back and argue basic assumptions. But new game, new attitudes. I can deal with that if it's a solution oriented discussion rather than arguing the nature of reality.

Well said. As long as we come to same conclusion/fix to the problem I don't care how we each got there :-)


Long but interesting post.

I played during that time as well. It never occurred to me to mention it, though now that you have I do not see why I didn't. Those were fun times, though those ante tournaments were tough on an 7 year old :-)

Ebynfel
06-11-2014, 05:32 PM
Ante was rough, but Bronze tablets and Efreets made burn a fun time :)

But honestly, though. I think considering the average pack price of entry when considering the allocations in 36 pack blocks put the costs and rewards we see in other games today a bit more into perspective.