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YourOpponent
04-21-2014, 12:08 PM
I just was wondering if gold rewards from tournaments are staying while Beta is out. I don't think they are, but at the same time I don't see a reason why it couldn't. Hopefully the gold rewards stays, because chest spinning is already a gold sink and otherwise I fear that that most of the chests could end up being like the Black Lion Chests from Guild Wars 2 where nobody wants them and you're lucky to sell one for 3 copper.

Don't get me wrong I'm fine with the gold rewards being removed from tournaments once PvE comes out, but feel like it would be weird to have a currency that people aren't even able to use until PvE comes out...besides from getting gold from the chests which can be opened of course to use in the AH.

hex_colin
04-21-2014, 12:13 PM
If I were a betting man, I'd bet that we get a little for tournaments in Beta, but not at the levels we've seen during Alpha. And, that it'll disappear completely once we have PVE.

Also, it doesn't matter since we can just hold the chests until a little later in the development cycle.

Yoss
04-21-2014, 12:42 PM
Gold from PvP is only until PvE comes. There's a purple post about it somewhere. Ask ShadowElf if you want the link. ;)

sukebe
04-21-2014, 12:42 PM
I do not think that the chests will ever be like those in Guild Wars 2 or Neverwinter, or any other free to play micro transaction game. Remember, while we can spend gold to roll on a chest, it is not needed to open those chests. They simply haven't coded the ability to open the chests themselves yet, which makes sense because they will mostly have PvE stuff in them.

YourOpponent
04-21-2014, 12:57 PM
I do not think that the chests will ever be like those in Guild Wars 2 or Neverwinter, or any other free to play micro transaction game. Remember, while we can spend gold to roll on a chest, it is not needed to open those chests. They simply haven't coded the ability to open the chests themselves yet, which makes sense because they will mostly have PvE stuff in them.

True it won't be as bad as those games of course because of that reason. I suppose I shouldn't make too hasty of a judgment on the value of the chests without us having an idea of the value of the contents within and the odds for those constants. However I don't remember whether or not chests have a chance of giving equipment...if so I could easily see how they would be able to keep their value, but then the game would feel like PvE is pay to win....where things such as mercenaries and the rest are more for fun and likely wouldn't effect PvE.

Idus
04-21-2014, 01:06 PM
• Gold will be fairly scarce initially in closed beta and you may feel like you're not generating enough of it for all of the chests you're getting. This is primarily because by design gold faucets (things that introduce gold into the economy) were supposed to be primarily from PvE activities. As more of those come online (and possibly some additional PvP gold faucets), gold should flow at a better rate.

This is actually quite a concern for me. I was under the impression that gold was pretty much exclusive PvE, like Platinum is exclusive PvP. If PvP'ers are not given incentive to interactive with PvE'ers, since they can generate their own gold, this is going to drastically reduce the value of a PvE'er wanting to acquire platinum, and therefore potentially convert to a PvP player, which is where Crypto are getting their money from.

I realise that gold generation should be much larger in PvE, but chark's statement above worries me as to how far they are going to go with this. I certainly hope gold obtainable from PvP alone is only enough to maybe tease PvP'ers into becoming PvE'ers, or the risk of splitting the community also increases.

hex_colin
04-21-2014, 01:12 PM
This is actually quite a concern for me. I was under the impression that gold was pretty much exclusive PvE, like Platinum is exclusive PvP. If PvP'ers are not given incentive to interactive with PvE'ers, since they can generate their own gold, this is going to drastically reduce the value of a PvE'er wanting to acquire platinum, and therefore potentially convert to a PvP player, which is where Crypto are getting their money from.

I realise that gold generation should be much larger in PvE, but chark's statement above worries me as to how far they are going to go with this. I certainly hope gold obtainable from PvP alone is only enough to maybe tease PvP'ers into becoming PvE'ers, or the risk of splitting the community also increases.

Definitely not worried about this. The game economy has been designed from the ground-up by an actual economist.

YourOpponent
04-21-2014, 01:12 PM
This is actually quite a concern for me. I was under the impression that gold was pretty much exclusive PvE, like Platinum is exclusive PvP. If PvP'ers are not given incentive to interactive with PvE'ers, since they can generate their own gold, this is going to drastically reduce the value of a PvE'er wanting to acquire platinum, and therefore potentially convert to a PvP player, which is where Crypto are getting their money from.

I realise that gold generation should be much larger in PvE, but chark's statement above worries me as to how far they are going to go with this. I certainly hope gold obtainable from PvP alone is only enough to maybe tease PvP'ers into becoming PvE'ers, or the risk of splitting the community also increases.

I was actually reassured by Chark's comment from the Chest Spins thread. I'm guessing the possible additional pvp faucets won't be things like casual play, but more like weekly tournaments, and monthly tournaments...besides Keeps of course which we already knew they were thinking about giving gold. So it sounds like gold will still be a teaser for PvP to give PvE a try and it's good to know that while those chests are being piled up they won't be entirely dusty.

Also

• You won't be able to open chests in closed beta, but you'll have them in your inventory for now (so that there is no value lost in closed beta from opening packs).

sukebe
04-21-2014, 01:14 PM
True it won't be as bad as those games of course because of that reason. I suppose I shouldn't make too hasty of a judgment on the value of the chests without us having an idea of the value of the contents within and the odds for those constants. However I don't remember whether or not chests have a chance of giving equipment...if so I could easily see how they would be able to keep their value, but then the game would feel like PvE is pay to win....where things such as mercenaries and the rest are more for fun and likely wouldn't effect PvE.

I am not sure what you mean when you say it would be more pay to win. Chests will include things like equipment, gold, mercenaries alternate art cards etc (there was an article that said what can be found in them, but I dont remember its name).

Besides the mercenaries and alternate art cards, everything in these chests can be obtained simply by playing the PvE side of the game. As you stated, the mercenaries will never be required for the PvE campaign and will simply allow different types of decks and play styles to shine.

In addition, I think it is safe to assume that there will be no shortage of chests on the AH and for sale by individuals for gold.

knightofeffect
04-21-2014, 01:24 PM
Gold from PvP is only until PvE comes. There's a purple post about it somewhere. Ask ShadowElf if you want the link. ;)

This got me really excited that ShadowElf might be back... Damn you if its not true. We're getting so close to beta, I'd thought we might have a sighting.

GhundiPI
04-21-2014, 02:17 PM
This is actually quite a concern for me.

<snip>

I realise that gold generation should be much larger in PvE, but chark's statement above worries me as to how far they are going to go with this. I certainly hope gold obtainable from PvP alone is only enough to maybe tease PvP'ers into becoming PvE'ers, or the risk of splitting the community also increases.

I fully agree with Idus that the statement from Chark is a bit concerning from a mainly PvE point of view. It was my understanding that gold came exclusively from PvE, which would be the hook and balance for the Platinum currency.

My main issue, if I understand it correctly, is the earning gold for playing tournaments during beta. Which means that for a person like me, patiently waiting for the PvE to start, the ingame gold economy will have shifted in favor of the PvP players who already have had the opportunity to build up an amount of gold. To me this sounds like getting the cake and eating it. And the longer it takes for CZE to disable that feature, the longer it will take for the economy to balance out again.

I could be entirely wrong about it all and would love to get a statement on how this is going to work out. Because as it sounds now, I cannot help but feel a bit peeved about it to be honest.

Xenavire
04-21-2014, 02:26 PM
I fully agree with Idus that the statement from Chark is a bit concerning from a mainly PvE point of view. It was my understanding that gold came exclusively from PvE, which would be the hook and balance for the Platinum currency.

My main issue, if I understand it correctly, is the earning gold for playing tournaments during beta. Which means that for a person like me, patiently waiting for the PvE to start, the ingame gold economy will have shifted in favor of the PvP players who already have had the opportunity to build up an amount of gold. To me this sounds like getting the cake and eating it. And the longer it takes for CZE to disable that feature, the longer it will take for the economy to balance out again.

I could be entirely wrong about it all and would love to get a statement on how this is going to work out. Because as it sounds now, I cannot help but feel a bit peeved about it to be honest.

I think you are underestimating the appeal of rolling the chests. It is going to be an amazing gold sink, and there will be almost zero imbalance a month after PvE is officially launched. In fact, I expect the balance to shift in a matter of days.

The gold rates in PvP will be intentionally low, and barely enough to roll on a couple of chests, while the dungeons (which will have no entry fee) will pay a good deal more. I expect it to take mere weeks before people start offering plat for gold so that they can roll on their chests.

Yoss
04-21-2014, 02:52 PM
No need to worry about PvE having no value to the PvP economy. Once we have PvE, gold drops from PvP will vanish. The only reason we have gold in PvP right now is because PvE isn't ready yet.

dogmod
04-21-2014, 03:47 PM
No need to worry about PvE having no value to the PvP economy. Once we have PvE, gold drops from PvP will vanish. The only reason we have gold in PvP right now is because PvE isn't ready yet.

Except Chark talked about adding MORE gold to PvP not less...

Barkam
04-21-2014, 03:47 PM
Then CZE should not worry about gold sinks and faucets then. Only introduce gold once PvE is live. Eventhough I am primarily a PvP player, I recommend that only currency available should be plat until PvE is live.

Barkam
04-21-2014, 03:50 PM
Except Chark talked about adding MORE gold to PvP not less...

That is vey bad. I hope that PvP tournaments provide no gold. Packs already contain chests that contain gold-equivalent items. No need to also include more gold in tournaments. Chests are plenty as a PvE teaser for a PvP player.

Kurasa
04-21-2014, 04:08 PM
I think Chark was leaving the door open for the possibility of more gold from PvP in case that turns out to somehow be desirable. I don't think I've seen anything anywhere else to indicate that gold from PvP was meant to be a thing, and to my knowledge gold has always been described as the PvE currency. Admittedly the way Chark phrased things ("gold faucets were supposed to be primarily from PvE activities") makes it sound like some amount of gold from PvP could be here to stay, but I'm not sure there's any reason to worry about it yet.

hex_colin
04-21-2014, 04:34 PM
Except Chark talked about adding MORE gold to PvP not less...

That's a particularly bad interpretation of his words. He suggested the possibility of multiple sources of gold from PVP. He made no mention of relative amounts, whether it would even be a viable/significant source, etc. The only thing we know for sure is that CZE has said multiple times that they're committed to having PVE be the source of the majority of the gold in the economy.

dogmod
04-21-2014, 04:38 PM
That's a particularly bad interpretation of his words. He suggested the possibility of multiple sources of gold from PVP. He made no mention of relative amounts, whether it would even be a viable/significant source, etc. The only thing we know for sure is that CZE has said multiple times that they're committed to having PVE be the source of the majority of the gold in the economy.

It was a particularly accurate in response to Yoss' post. Yoss states that they will be "removing gold from PvP." If you read Chark's post he does not mention removing gold from PvP, his only reference is the possibility of adding it. When I stated that Chark talked about adding more gold to PvP that is exactly what he did.

Chark
04-21-2014, 04:47 PM
Except Chark talked about adding MORE gold to PvP not less...

Just to be clear, I do intend to add more PvP faucets between now and when we launch PvE activities. PvP faucets will go away as soon as I can replace them with PvE faucets.

We want to launch with the Wheels of Fate. They require gold to work correctly. We have to get gold to players somehow. The current rate at which gold flows in via tournaments is less then what it takes to spin all of the chests generated by participating in tournaments. This means that the ~1.5MM chests from KS rewards probably won't have enough gold to get spun on the Wheels of Fate.

PvE will be the primary way to generate gold when it's out.

DanTheMeek
04-21-2014, 04:54 PM
Just to be clear, I do intend to add more PvP faucets between now and when we launch PvE activities. PvP faucets will go away as soon as I can replace them with PvE faucets.

We want to launch with the Wheels of Fate. They require gold to work correctly. We have to get gold to players somehow. The current rate at which gold flows in via tournaments is less then what it takes to spin all of the chests generated by participating in tournaments. This means that the ~1.5MM chests from KS rewards probably won't have enough gold to get spun on the Wheels of Fate.

PvE will be the primary way to generate gold when it's out.

Thanks for the clarification Chark. I was on the side of things that I liked the idea of being able to get some gold from PvP, just at a vastly inferior rate to PvE to encourage pve but not force pve for PvP players who only want to PvP, but this is fine too and makes sense.

YourOpponent
04-21-2014, 05:14 PM
Also people need to keep in mind that if there wasn't a way for us to be getting gold until PvE came out it could potentially cause a worse situation for the player base. For example if there was a bug in the Auction House that whenever you got outbid in an auction you received the gold you bid with twice (Thus resulting in an infinite gold bug).

I've seen it happen before in a game where the whole economy was crippled within hours. Which puts the people in a bind where there are three popularly used ways to treat that. A.) Ban the bug abusers that were exploiting it and do nothing about the valuable items that are now removed from the game. B.) Fix the bug, but leave the bug abusers unbanned and letting them keep what they gained from it (except the gold). C.) Do a rollback to a set period of time before that patch came out. As you can see each of those things aren't great and a game I used to play called Twilight Heroes went with Option B...which essentially made it extremely hard to get the seasonal items and many other valuable items from the time of that bug and for months afterwards where that person had total control of the market on valuables.

GhundiPI
04-22-2014, 12:38 AM
The gold rates in PvP will be intentionally low, and barely enough to roll on a couple of chests, while the dungeons (which will have no entry fee) will pay a good deal more. I expect it to take mere weeks before people start offering plat for gold so that they can roll on their chests.

Unfortunately there is no way of knowing right now what the rate of gold will be for dungeons. The only thing we have at the moment is an old screenshot showing dungeon rewards of 50 and 100 gold, so speculation is very dangerous. But if 8th place in a tournament keeps on providing 3500 gold as it does now (to compare, spins of a common chest costs 1200 gold, rare 4500 gold), a few weeks of pure PvP only gold income will have created quite an influx of gold, ready to be spend on the one thing where PvE had any interaction with PvP as soon chests can be opened.

Since why spend gold on spins for chests which cannot even be opened yet? There is a chance on getting a card out of it, but constructed during beta is probably one of the least interesting formats. Sure, everyone will do a few spins for laughs, but after that I expect most to sit on their gold and wait on the moment that chests can be opened. Especially since there will be no loss in gold value by simply waiting. Which means two things: the initial rush of chest material will have been funded by PvP and not PvE (which would happen anyway, regardless of people sitting on their gold or not) and PvE gold will not be needed for a certain period.

And yes I know that in the grand scheme of things (years upon years of Hex), the effect could be minimal. But if there is one thing I know will happen is that people will min-max the heck out of this. Which has the potential of a larger initial economic discrepancy than originally planned. As especially closed MMOg systems like Hex are very vulnerable to this.



We want to launch with the Wheels of Fate. They require gold to work correctly. We have to get gold to players somehow. The current rate at which gold flows in via tournaments is less then what it takes to spin all of the chests generated by participating in tournaments. This means that the ~1.5MM chests from KS rewards probably won't have enough gold to get spun on the Wheels of Fate.

PvE will be the primary way to generate gold when it's out.

While I appreciate this explanation, it does not take into consideration the generation of more gold through paying PvP players. And since spending money on tournaments during beta can now be seen as "more worth for your money" before the PvP faucets are removed (or toned down), I expect quite a few players will 'invest' in this and try to hoard as much gold as possible.

To make a simple min-maxing example out of it: soon after chests can be opened (or likely even before that), I expect the sweet spot for PvP players to pay for spins will be found on probably the rare and legendary chests. For PvE players every chest will stay interesting as there is always something usefull for them in it. Which means that PvP players will probably sell their common and uncommon chests on the market for more gold, essentially shifting the gold economy even more in their favor.

Again, the above is probably just a temporary effect. But if I can think of this, I expect there are quite a few actually clever people who have thought up even better ways.

Now I have no illusion on where the money for CZE will come from in Hex, at least initially. But I hope people will be able to see that as someone who has been extremely enthousiastic about the PvE side of Hex, I actually do feel a bit left out at the moment. But still, I sincerely hope that the effect stays minimal as I personally would love to see an extremely strong PvE community and intend to do my utmost to make it just that.

Silent
04-22-2014, 01:00 AM
I appreciate it, that we get some gold as long as PvE isn't in. I can only speak for myself, but I'll use every gold coin I get through my tournaments on spinning my chests right away. I'll spin every single chest as long as I can and when it has been implemented, I'll open those and use new gold to keep spinning the rest :) Well, on one condition though, that the Wheel of Fate works properly.

Idus
04-22-2014, 02:03 AM
Yes I'm afraid Chark's additional comments do nothing to allay my concerns, because we have no concrete information on when PvE will be out, or how the PvE economy will compare to the PvP economy, to convince me that gold in PvP won't cannibalise the PvE experience. If it's a week, the all good. If it's 3 months, that's a heck of a lot of gold build up in PvP that diminishes the PvE experience.

Maybe in the long run, it won't amount to a hill of beans, but does that mean those of us who do not have the time to commit to 3 hour tournaments every day, and even if we did, it's not our preferred play style, should be left feeling like we're being dragged further behind, not just because our proffered mode of play isn't out yet, but also because those who prefer PvP are also making inroads into our gameplay, without us?

I'll be happy if this is a molehill down the road, but at the moment, it still feels like a mountain.

AstaSyneri
04-22-2014, 02:55 AM
Definitely not worried about this. The game economy has been designed from the ground-up by an actual economist.

I am an actual economist. And until I hear more details/numbers, I am worried.


Just to be clear, I do intend to add more PvP faucets between now and when we launch PvE activities. PvP faucets will go away as soon as I can replace them with PvE faucets.

We want to launch with the Wheels of Fate. They require gold to work correctly. We have to get gold to players somehow. The current rate at which gold flows in via tournaments is less then what it takes to spin all of the chests generated by participating in tournaments. This means that the ~1.5MM chests from KS rewards probably won't have enough gold to get spun on the Wheels of Fate.

PvE will be the primary way to generate gold when it's out.

Can you give us more details? This is all very vague - again.

lite
04-22-2014, 03:37 AM
Ask ShadowElf if you want the link. ;)

He is back?? :confused:

Marsden
04-22-2014, 07:55 AM
Just to be clear, I do intend to add more PvP faucets between now and when we launch PvE activities. PvP faucets will go away as soon as I can replace them with PvE faucets.

It would be great if gold was given for winning the AI matches, since that's the only PvE we have right now.

Yoss
04-22-2014, 09:05 AM
He is back?? :confused:

Not that I know of, thus the wink.

GhundiPI
04-22-2014, 10:04 AM
It would be great if gold was given for winning the AI matches, since that's the only PvE we have right now.

While I understand why you would ask for this, it would actually only make it worse since even more 'free' gold would be created that way. Having done some very basic quick calculations, there already will be a large amount of gold in the system before PvE starts. The following takes a whole lot of assumptions, so it shouldn't be taken too literally, but does show potentially what could happen once the beta goes life with gold from tournaments.

As a Dungeon Crawler I'll at least get 150 packs. If everything stays the way it is now, I intend to use them all for tournaments. Which means that I'll able to participate in at least 50 without buying more packs (not considering extra packs, VIP, free tournament, etc). With a guaranteed gold amount of 3500 from a Draft, that will be 175k gold at the lowest but probably somewhere around the 250k gold on average.

Now counting from the Early Bird King tier onward, there are some 7500 rewards for 150 packs. Quite a few of those are from multiple pledges by one person, but lets assume that at least 2000 other of those pledgers got the same idea during beta and decide to use their packs to get a head start in the gold department. Taking the average of 250k for 50 tournaments, that means those 2000 players will generate at least somewhere around 500m in gold. Again, this is not counting any extras or even people who will buy packs after their given amount has run out. So personally I think I have been very conservative in those estimations and will not be surprised if the amount would be doubled. (And no, limiting gold rewards to 1st/2nd/3rd/etc place will be an even worse option)

Now I have no idea what kind of gold rewards PvE will give, but that sounds like a huge amount of pre-existing currency before the part of Hex that is supposed to generate that currency has even started. And that to me is very worrying. I have seen a whole lot of ingame economies getting destroyed by inflationary spirals, and for a game like Hex where the economy will be as important as it could be, this sounds earily like the start of one. Sure chest spins will take away a hefty sum of that gold, but not nearly all of it. And often a spin will generate something else of value, thus continuing the spiral.

Again, I sincerely hope I'm wrong! And hopefully we will get some more clarifications, or possibly even a reassurance that CZE has calculated this through thoroughly and has taken in to account on how this will affect the PvE side later on. Otherwise this could become quite a problem.

hex_colin
04-22-2014, 11:51 AM
I am an actual economist. And until I hear more details/numbers, I am worried.

If I were CZE, there's no chance in hell I'd be releasing actual/projected numbers. It's none of our business.

In the event that they've misjudged the situation in the future, it's their problem to fix.

dogmod
04-22-2014, 11:55 AM
I would prefer that Gold only come from PvE as well. I think that the perceived value of gold should be established by the player base once the gold from PvE has started. I see no benefit in rolling on chests from my gold from drafts until PvE is rolled out and the true value of gold has been established as well as the true value of chests is established. I for one will be hoarding my gold until I have a clearer picture of its true value. And as someone who will be doing both PvE and PvP I will want to make an informed decision about how best to allocate my gold across the two game halves.

That being said I don't really think you can calculate the amount of gold per tournament yet as I think someone from CZE stated that the amount of gold per tournament will be adjusted prior to Beta I believe (someone can correct if need be)

Xenavire
04-22-2014, 12:05 PM
I would prefer that Gold only come from PvE as well. I think that the perceived value of gold should be established by the player base once the gold from PvE has started. I see no benefit in rolling on chests from my gold from drafts until PvE is rolled out and the true value of gold has been established as well as the true value of chests is established. I for one will be hoarding my gold until I have a clearer picture of its true value. And as someone who will be doing both PvE and PvP I will want to make an informed decision about how best to allocate my gold across the two game halves.

That being said I don't really think you can calculate the amount of gold per tournament yet as I think someone from CZE stated that the amount of gold per tournament will be adjusted prior to Beta I believe (someone can correct if need be)

The thing is though, until we have PvE, gold will have no value. When PvE arrives, the value will be dictated by how fast it is to farm. For PvP only players, they will likely just burn it all, because to them it will be a worthless resource, except for chests. (Although because of chests they may value it highly. It depends on the player, and whether the player would rather roll on chests or sell them.)

I personally will burn through my gold, and simply farm more, because I will be playing both PvP/PvE, and I will likely only spend it on chests.

RobHaven
04-22-2014, 12:12 PM
The thing is though, until we have PvE, gold will have no value. ... For PvP only players, they will likely just burn it all, because to them it will be a worthless resource, except for chests. (Although because of chests they may value it highly. ...)
I completely disagree with your opening line...and from the looks of it, you do too.
Gold will have value as long as there is demand, and there will be demand as soon as Beta is live because people are going to want to roll on chests.

Consider me firmly in the "gold should come exclusively from PvE" camp. I can't figure out exactly what it is, but something about gold from PvP stinks to me.

hex_colin
04-22-2014, 12:27 PM
Consider me firmly in the "gold should come exclusively from PvE" camp. I can't figure out exactly what it is, but something about gold from PvP stinks to me.

And CZE agrees! Gold from PVP is temporary until the PVE "faucets" are available.

Chark
04-22-2014, 12:28 PM
Again, I sincerely hope I'm wrong!

You're forgetting to count the items that drive demand for gold (chests with a spin on them). While each tournament on aggregate drops gold, it also on aggregate drops items that generate demand for that gold. There are a few more assumptions that we make (a. the ratio of drafts to constructed to sealed tournaments; b. people will at some point want to spin the wheels of fate), but ultimately the gold coming into the economy via an average tournament is less than the gold that can be leaving the economy via WoF spins.

In Closed Beta, there will not be enough gold to spin all of the chests in the economy. Unless something terrible happens, like constructed tournaments firing at the rate that is three times that of draft tournaments. However, if we achieve those rates, then there is something else fundamentally wrong with the system (see LLCoolDave's posts in the booster pack price thread for why).

Rendakor
04-22-2014, 12:35 PM
Are chest spins still going to reward legendary cards in beta?

Chark
04-22-2014, 12:37 PM
Are chest spins still going to reward legendary cards in beta?

There is a chance, but way less than what you are seeing on live right now. The patch on live has code that says "if I can't grant some outcome after a spin, I instead give you a legendary." This going to be fixed.

Rendakor
04-22-2014, 12:38 PM
Good to hear. I was afraid it was going to make them way too common.

Yoss
04-22-2014, 01:16 PM
There is a chance, but way less than what you are seeing on live right now. The patch on live has code that says "if I can't grant some outcome after a spin, I instead give you a legendary." This going to be fixed.

We will still get something from those "I can't grant..." spins though, right? In other words, the intent is that all the WoF rewards will function, even if only by proxy?

Xenavire
04-22-2014, 01:20 PM
There is a chance, but way less than what you are seeing on live right now. The patch on live has code that says "if I can't grant some outcome after a spin, I instead give you a legendary." This going to be fixed.

So does that mean we will get the intended rewards for a spin in beta? For example, let me hypothesize that there are 10 pieces of equipment, 4 alt art (I think this was confirmed by Cory, so this is more fact than estimate) and the rest of the rewards range from upgrades to more packs, and no physical items other than packs and currency, and PvP cards.

Will those few pieces of equipment actually drop? Will token replacements drop? (Like the chests themselves, simple placeholders). Or will it be some replacement item, like more packs etc?

I think this is useful information for all players, so they can plan accordingly with their gold - if they need to wait for patch X to have a chance at the equipment drops, then most players will likely decide to wait.

Can you comment?

Chark
04-22-2014, 01:23 PM
We will still get something from those "I can't grant..." spins though, right? In other words, the intent is that all the WoF rewards will function, even if only by proxy?

All of the rewards will drop into the stash in the next live build. You won't be able to do anything with some of them (PvE equipment, PvE cards, etc.), but we won't have you miss out on value just because some stuff isn't in :)

Yoss
04-22-2014, 01:27 PM
To phrase it yet another way: will a chest spin during PvP be worth more, less, or the same as a chest spin during PvE?

If less, then everyone will want to hoard gold until the PvE version of WoF comes, which means your gold sink fails. If more, then you have an effective gold sink because people will rush to burn their gold before the PvE version of WoF comes. If the same, then it doesn't matter too much, but since there'd be no rush, I would be tempted to hoard for later to see what other things I can do with that gold (which means I'd be avoiding the gold sink, which is bad).

EDIT:
See Chark's post above this. I wrote this before he posted.

Xenavire
04-22-2014, 01:27 PM
All of the rewards will drop into the stash in the next live build. You won't be able to do anything with some of them (PvE equipment, PvE cards, etc.), but we won't have you miss out on value just because some stuff isn't in :)

Disregard my question, this answers it perfectly. :)

Chark
04-22-2014, 01:36 PM
To phrase it yet another way: will a chest spin during PvP be worth more, less, or the same as a chest spin during PvE?

Same value, although one of my concerns is that players will not be able to accurately determine that value. For example, the utility of some of the PvE stuff will be unknown to players, so it'll be hard to price.

Yoss
04-22-2014, 01:42 PM
Same value, although one of my concerns is that players will not be able to accurately determine that value. For example, the utility of some of the PvE stuff will be unknown to players, so it'll be hard to price.

Yeah, that's why I'd said it would be tempting to hoard the gold until later just so that I can understand the relative valuations better before jumping in to commit funds. I'm not sure that's the end of the world. Ratios will still be correct, where there are more chests to spin than there is gold to spin them. However, the magnitude of the two populations could be quite large if people are taking a wait-and-see approach.

EDIT:
Such a big pool of gold, even if covered by even more chests, could be a put-off for new PvE players when they arrive.

noragar
04-22-2014, 01:55 PM
Yeah, that's why I'd said it would be tempting to hoard the gold until later just so that I can understand the relative valuations better before jumping in to commit funds. I'm not sure that's the end of the world. Ratios will still be correct, where there are more chests to spin than there is gold to spin them. However, the magnitude of the two populations could be quite large if people are taking a wait-and-see approach.


Don't take this the wrong way, but I think it's safe to assume that most people are not like you when it comes to taking a wait-and-see approach.

There are a ton of people who see a book they want to buy on Amazon and will pay $15 overnight shipping because they NEED it RIGHT NOW instead of paying $3 for 2-day shipping. I'm guessing you would put together a spreadsheet of all your planned Amazon purchases over the next 5 years so that you can do a cost comparison to decide whether it's more cost effective to pay for Amazon Prime or if there's some way you can group your purchases to always get free shipping.

Again, not saying this is a bad thing - I'm definitely closer to that extreme than the other one, but I'm pretty sure most people won't have the patience to stop themselves from spinning as many chests as they can as soon as they can.

Yoss
04-22-2014, 02:03 PM
♥ Made me LOL!

I do have a spreadsheet of all the MTG cards I want, their price on TCGplayer, what deck they would go in...

Not typical, I know. :D

GhundiPI
04-22-2014, 02:06 PM
You're forgetting to count the items that drive demand for gold (chests with a spin on them). While each tournament on aggregate drops gold, it also on aggregate drops items that generate demand for that gold. There are a few more assumptions that we make (a. the ratio of drafts to constructed to sealed tournaments; b. people will at some point want to spin the wheels of fate), but ultimately the gold coming into the economy via an average tournament is less than the gold that can be leaving the economy via WoF spins.

In Closed Beta, there will not be enough gold to spin all of the chests in the economy. Unless something terrible happens, like constructed tournaments firing at the rate that is three times that of draft tournaments. However, if we achieve those rates, then there is something else fundamentally wrong with the system (see LLCoolDave's posts in the booster pack price thread for why).

I appreciate the explanation Chark! Though there still is the main point regarding that until PvE starts up, all gold will be generated by PvP, which will create actual value by spinning chests. Value which was originally planned to be generated through PvE. And while eventually PvE will take over the generation of gold, the initial influx through PvP has the potential to inflate gold currency, which lessens the PvE currency.

I also strongly doubt that a lot of gold earned through PvP will leave the economy through chest spins before PvE begins. I still expect most pure PvPers to only spend gold on spins of Rare and higher chests, which is something they can easily be self sufficient in if the current numbers of gold income stay this way until PvE.

I'll wait and see what happens. But I find it reassuring that you guys at CZE are keeping a close eye on this. Hopefully the start of beta will go well tomorrow and we'll find out then.

Mercadian
04-22-2014, 02:15 PM
Does this mean all of the Kickstarter PvE rewards (Merc, Equipment and Cards) will also drop into this stash ie we will get all of the rewards with closed beta even if we cant use the yet or understand exactly what they do?

Yoss
04-22-2014, 02:17 PM
Does this mean all of the Kickstarter PvE rewards (Merc, Equipment and Cards) will also drop into this stash ie we will get all of the rewards with closed beta even if we cant use the yet or understand exactly what they do?

Makes sense to me. Otherwise, how would we double-check to make sure all our loot is accounted for?

dogmod
04-22-2014, 03:46 PM
I would highly suggest that people hold their gold until PvE is around. If the drops are the same for chests when PvE comes out you are losing nothing and gaining choices. Do you spend your gold on a spin or do you spend it on a PvE in game activity or do you spend it on PvE equipment that you want/speculate on or do you buy PvP cards placed on sale for gold?

Also a question I haven't seen asked is whether or not when a chest is spun on and "upgraded" if that chest becomes a "new" chest. I.e. would it be beneficial to wait until a convention weekend to attempt to upgrade all of my chests?

If I wanted to exploit that I probably would have just kept my mouth shut but I would rather see a level playing field than an avenue for me to exploit that other people hadn't thought of.

The only value I could see in spinning early would be if you are assuming that the price of Alternate cards/chest drops will be higher prior to PvE... I don't see anything to suggest in my mind that the influx of PvE players will do anything but increase demand though.

Chark
04-22-2014, 04:04 PM
Also a question I haven't seen asked is whether or not when a chest is spun on and "upgraded" if that chest becomes a "new" chest. I.e. would it be beneficial to wait until a convention weekend to attempt to upgrade all of my chests?

If I wanted to exploit that I probably would have just kept my mouth shut but I would rather see a level playing field than an avenue for me to exploit that other people hadn't thought of.


This is a fairly obvious exploit in the system that's readily apparent in the design. It won't work like that.

dogmod
04-22-2014, 04:07 PM
This is a fairly obvious exploit in the system that's readily apparent in the design. It won't work like that.

Agreed that it is obvious, but I found it telling that no one has mentioned it before. And also history is strewn with things that should have been obvious but were not caught.

Are the chest planned to have different names or special designations for the auction house or dates?

Freebird_Falcon
04-22-2014, 05:00 PM
It costs 30,000 gold to roll a legendary chest. I have opened 10 packs and had 4 of them contain legendary chests. Even if you pull in 250k from 50 drafts, this would evaporate pretty fast. I'm not particularly worried about PvP over producing. As far as retaining for potential value: if the starting gold faucet rewards players with 3500-7000 for ~3 hours input of time with the only sink being chests, I would expect PvE to ultimately give a higher ratio than this since this appears to be their minimum input for chests alone. Likely to be much more than this, once all sinks are implemented.

The chests are currently tagged in inventory by rarity and as spin/no spin, with little icons denoting # of spins in the top left. Date functionality will definitely be necessary if they do indeed end up dropping time specific lewtz. (probably specific icon look/color + (event name) or similiar for x event eligible chests)

Yoss
04-22-2014, 07:02 PM
"Time specific lewtz" are already confirmed for during conventions.

YourOpponent
04-22-2014, 07:33 PM
Also a question I haven't seen asked is whether or not when a chest is spun on and "upgraded" if that chest becomes a "new" chest. I.e. would it be beneficial to wait until a convention weekend to attempt to upgrade all of my chests?


An excellent question. How about if a chest was made during a convention weekend by opening a pack and then spun on later to try to "upgrade" it after that event is over. Will it still have a chance of giving the loot special to that event if it got upgraded? Logic tells me yes, but I like to make sure on things.

Jarric
04-22-2014, 10:25 PM
Ok this seems like the best place to ask this. When you compete in a draft tournament ... are you awarded 3 chests from the packs that have to be used for the tournament or are you just SOL on those? AFAIK you don't get chests. which leads to the dilema of you need gold to open chests. Gold comes from tournaments so you have to do tournaments which costs packs. So for every one chest you open you have to use 3 packs to get the gold to "hopefully" open that so it's 4 packs per chest minimum.

I HOPE I have this wrong.

hex_colin
04-22-2014, 10:26 PM
Ok this seems like the best place to ask this. When you compete in a draft tournament ... are you awarded 3 chests from the packs that have to be used for the tournament or are you just SOL on those? AFAIK you don't get chests. which leads to the dilema of you need gold to open chests. Gold comes from tournaments so you have to do tournaments which costs packs. So for every one chest you open you have to use 3 packs to get the gold to "hopefully" open that so it's 4 packs per chest minimum.

I HOPE I have this wrong.

You get chests. They are deposited in your inventory at the start of the draft.

Silent
04-23-2014, 01:01 AM
All of the rewards will drop into the stash in the next live build. You won't be able to do anything with some of them (PvE equipment, PvE cards, etc.), but we won't have you miss out on value just because some stuff isn't in :)

Thank you very much for that clarification, Chark. With this I'll definitively be one of those playing a lot of tournaments and using the gold directly to spin on my chests. So you don't have to worry about my gold flooding the market :D

Silent
04-23-2014, 01:08 AM
Since some people are saying, that you don't lose anything, while waiting for PvE before spinning, I just wanted to mention, that you actually do. Although with a smaller chance now, spinning the wheel could give you cards, even legendary cards. Thats something at least I don't want to wait for.

sukebe
04-23-2014, 01:21 AM
Since some people are saying, that you don't lose anything, while waiting for PvE before spinning, I just wanted to mention, that you actually do. Although with a smaller chance now, spinning the wheel could give you cards, even legendary cards. Thats something at least I don't want to wait for.

Same here :-) I got a fairly big tier and I plan on being very active. I want to get all the cards I can as soon as I can. It is not a big chance but I still look forward to trying. Not to mention I find WoF pretty fun :-)

AstaSyneri
04-23-2014, 02:55 AM
If I were CZE, there's no chance in hell I'd be releasing actual/projected numbers. It's none of our business.

In the event that they've misjudged the situation in the future, it's their problem to fix.

While true, it looks like we have managed to step on your toes. I should have put a smiley there. The Gold economy at this point is not something I am truly worried about - it's whether the PvE players get the short end of the stick right now. If you backed the RL or DC tiers, you are bound to wonder whether CZE will make these tiers have "equal value" to the other same rank tiers.

Something like a screen shot of The Arena in testing would really help to allay those fears.

Colin - have you seen The Arena in action?