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View Full Version : What is the entry cost for each tournament type?



AstaSyneri
04-24-2014, 07:52 AM
Is the cost for every tournament type (apart from starters/boosters you have to bring) 100 Platinum?

Kroan
04-24-2014, 07:58 AM
I think Constructed is 300

Daer
04-24-2014, 08:27 AM
Draft = 100 plat
Sealed = 100 plat
Constructed = 300 plat

AstaSyneri
04-24-2014, 08:33 AM
Thanks!

So, the 5€ or 10€ option is a good place to start...

Sojurne
04-24-2014, 12:04 PM
so it will cost real money to do the tournaments :/

sukebe
04-24-2014, 12:10 PM
yes, tournaments will cost money now, as will all product you purchase. On the up side, there will be no wipes, so what you get is yours to keep.

gohan661
04-24-2014, 12:11 PM
God, the more you read about it the more you realise you are literally going to be pouring your money into CZE's pocket. And you know? i think i'm ok with that.

Xenavire
04-24-2014, 12:12 PM
God, the more you read about it the more you realise you are literally going to be pouring your money into CZE's pocket. And you know? i think i'm ok with that.

Well, only the on-demand tournaments will be paid. There will be plenty of free options for those days where you can't afford it. :)

Makizushi
04-24-2014, 12:18 PM
God, the more you read about it the more you realise you are literally going to be pouring your money into CZE's pocket. And you know? i think i'm ok with that.

Well, please don't act like your surprised. It was known from the start that tournaments would cost you money. But as Xenavire says, you can still fight duels with other players, or you could join externally organized tournaments.

mysnismatt
04-24-2014, 12:20 PM
Other than buying platinum, what are ways to get it without the auction house? Normally I could trade in boosters/extra rares to keep drafting without paying $1 every time.

Yoss
04-24-2014, 12:21 PM
Paying means more development!

Yoss
04-24-2014, 12:21 PM
Other than buying platinum, what are ways to get it without the auction house? Normally I could trade in boosters/extra rares to keep drafting without paying $1 every time.

Need to wait for the AH I think. At that point you can sell stuff to get your Plat from someone else.

mysnismatt
04-24-2014, 12:24 PM
Okay... Doesn't matter for the next couple days anyway, as the tournaments will be down. It is so hard to not just crack all my packs!

gohan661
04-24-2014, 12:53 PM
Well, please don't act like your surprised. It was known from the start that tournaments would cost you money. But as Xenavire says, you can still fight duels with other players, or you could join externally organized tournaments.

I don't mind paying for stuff or even pouring money into games. I've subscribed to MMOs for years and bought expansions and what not. But realising that if you wanted to do a tournament a day you'd quickly run out of money (at least i would) is another thing entirely.

Saeijou
04-24-2014, 03:11 PM
It's 4 dollar(3 packs plus 100 plat) for 2 hours or more of gaming... i think its worth it!
cinema would be more expansive :P

and maybe you win some packs... so it gets cheaper in general

Deathfog
04-24-2014, 06:29 PM
Will tournaments of a significant size be set up on a fixed, pre-determined schedule weeks in advance? Will we sign up a few days earlier to guarantee our slot?

Gwaer
04-24-2014, 06:33 PM
It's 4 dollar(3 packs plus 100 plat) for 2 hours or more of gaming... i think its worth it!
cinema would be more expansive :P

and maybe you win some packs... so it gets cheaper in general

7 dollars. Packs are 2 bucks a pop. Until the AH anyway.

ZekromZero
04-25-2014, 03:28 PM
Can someone clarify for me the price of each tournament type with boosters

So how many boosters do i need and how much plat for each mode

Thanks

Xenavire
04-25-2014, 03:38 PM
6 Boosters for sealed, 3 for draft, 100 plat each standard fee. 300 plat for constructed.

Azorid
04-25-2014, 05:58 PM
Am I correct in assuming Constructed prizes will be larger compared to Draft/Sealed since the entry fee is larger?

Niedar
04-25-2014, 06:02 PM
No, Draft/Sealed consume packs and opened packs are worth less than unopened packs.

Azorid
04-25-2014, 06:08 PM
No, Draft/Sealed consume packs and opened packs are worth less than unopened packs.
I'm afraid I don't follow.
Draft/Sealed costs 100 plat and you have to provide 3/6 unopened boosters, correct? What is the prize then? Boosters that you are forced to open right away?
Constructed is 300 plat and you provide your own pre-built deck. But this time you get unopened boosters?
Sorry if this is common knowledge elsewhere, but I'm somewhat confused.

Niedar
04-25-2014, 06:26 PM
Both tournaments have as prizes the same number of unopened boosters.

Draft has a lower fee because it has a penalty of forcing 24 boosters to be opened. When you add in the 12 boosters as a prize this causes 12 currently existing boosters in the economy to be opened as a price of just playing. Imagine if all boosters in the economy have been opened. People are happy with what they have and do not actually want anymore cards but they do want to draft. So to play draft I would have to buy 3 packs at 2 dollars that are then opened and pay 1 dollar in platinum which is 7 dollars. Much more than the 3 dollar constructed entry fee.

Obviously that scenario is bogus but it is basically a complex economic problem of balance on consuming boosters by forcing them to opened and generating unopened packs.

DanTheMeek
04-25-2014, 06:53 PM
The flaw in the "drafts/sealed" cost more because you open packs is that sealed still costs the same as draft despite the fact you open double the packs, if opening packs is really that big of an expenditure (and it is) you'd expect sealed to be even cheaper still then draft, or at least offer an increased prize pool. I think the most logical set up, and nicely sequential too, would be to have the fee for drafts to be 1 dollars, sealed 2 dollars, and constructed 3 dollars, but with sealed having the most prizes of the three (double of draft) since your opening double the packs and paying double the fee. It's clean, its sequential, and the only thing you still lose out on and can't recoup by doing sealed over draft is time, since two drafts will largely give you more total hours spent drafting (and thus theoretically more fun) for the same investment, but I think when you get down to that level its more of a nit-picky thing as there may be people who actually prefer getting at prizes in half the time.

Also... can some one link me to where these fees are coming from? As far as I can tell in game prices still aren't listed, nor can I find it on the site. Assuming its just going to be half whatever MTGO used isn't unreasonable, but is no guarantee as Hex is under no requirement (to my knowldge) to copy every aspect of MTGO.

Azorid
04-25-2014, 06:58 PM
Ah, I understand. Thank you for the explanation.

trapline
04-25-2014, 10:20 PM
The payment model is what is going to hurt me, it's magic the gathering online 2.0

I really believe CZE needs to have at least one format that can be as simple as something like hearthstone, where you have some dailies then earn enough by playing the game to enter a tournament or semi draft type thing.

If a draft is going to run me 7 bucks a shot for 2 hours of engaging gameplay, I'm not interested. For 14 bucks a month I can get way more unlimited gameplay from an MMO and dawdle with hearthstone on the side until it gets more cards and game modes.

I get that HEX is deeper, I wouldn't have bought a slacker backer if I wasn't looking for a meaty TCG, I'm just not going to be able to enjoy that 2 hours knowing it cost 7 bucks. It's not that I can't afford it, it's just too expensive a treadmill to bother getting on board.
A Saturday gaming session would cost me 24 bucks, to draft the night away. Actually you know what? I guess I can't afford that, maybe this isn't the game for me:(

Svenn
04-25-2014, 10:31 PM
The payment model is what is going to hurt me, it's magic the gathering online 2.0

I really believe CZE needs to have at least one format that can be as simple as something like hearthstone, where you have some dailies then earn enough by playing the game to enter a tournament or semi draft type thing.

If a draft is going to run me 7 bucks a shot for 2 hours of engaging gameplay, I'm not interested. For 14 bucks a month I can get way more unlimited gameplay from an MMO and dawdle with hearthstone on the side until it gets more cards and game modes.

I get that HEX is deeper, I wouldn't have bought a slacker backer if I wasn't looking for a meaty TCG, I'm just not going to be able to enjoy that 2 hours knowing it cost 7 bucks. It's not that I can't afford it, it's just too expensive a treadmill to bother getting on board.
A Saturday gaming session would cost me 24 bucks, to draft the night away. Actually you know what? I guess I can't afford that, maybe this isn't the game for me:(

When the AH/PvE come you'll be able to earn plat from selling cards/packs/PvE things to fund the rest of it. And if you're winning tournaments (or winning some matches in Swiss) you'll be earning packs you can use for your next draft.

trapline
04-26-2014, 08:50 PM
When the AH/PvE come you'll be able to earn plat from selling cards/packs/PvE things to fund the rest of it. And if you're winning tournaments (or winning some matches in Swiss) you'll be earning packs you can use for your next draft.


What is swiss? Is that a constructed format?
I hope the pve turns out as you say and its actually feasible to earn draft entries via pve in a fun manner, but my gut tells me its going to be magic online where its actually just playing an auction house and scraping enough to squeeze in the odd draft.

I just kind of wish HEX had scrapped the magic style lobbies and structure and innovated, tickets and packs are a relic.

Gwaer
04-26-2014, 08:54 PM
You won't be able to earn draft entries in pve. But You'll be able to sell PVE equipment and cards on the AH to try to get plat for drafts.

Swiss is a tournament type. It means that you play in every round of the tournament, and every win gets you a prize, which is usually one pack.

DanTheMeek
04-26-2014, 09:46 PM
I just kind of wish HEX had scrapped the magic style lobbies and structure and innovated, tickets and packs are a relic.

I actually really strongly agree with this. I played in the MTGO beta and NEVER participate in it after it became monetized for precisely this reason, I hated the payment structure. This coming from a guy with probably hundreds, maybe even thousands of dollars worth of cards in entire dressers dedicated to storing cards, but its the same reason that I'll pay 9 bucks to see a movie once in a theater, yet never rented movies until I could get them 1 dollar at red box, the difference in experience between something live and something thats digital is very meaningful. And frankly, part of why I don't play real life card games anymore isn't just that I got older and have more responsibilities, its in large part the price. Even with real life tournaments where I added on "an excuse to get out of the apartment" as part of the value for my weekly entree fees, the price just started to feel too stiff.

When I lived in my parents place, money I made working was pretty much all used for entertainment, but now adays even though I make probably 20 times what I made back then, most of that money is going to expenses for essentials for living. Throw in the fact that you can get literally hundreds of hours of quality digital entertainment off steam for a one time payment of 5 bucks or less, and its really hard to justify 7 dollar for 2 hours of card playing, no matter how fun.

Now as a backer, I've got a lot of packs already so the entree fees would be much less for me for a while, a buck each for everything but constructed, but I backed because I believed in the vision for pve for this game, it was literally a donation more then because I was entranced by the "value" I was getting. I was hopeful the reduced cost of packs and tournament entree fees would make the game more accesible, but as it was still the same system, just with the pricing cut in half, it still didn't really interest me.

Now since I've got the packs anyway, I'd like to leverage them into some nice entertainment, but since if I draft I don't get to keep what I want from my packs I pretty much have to look at drafting as losing 3 packs and paying 1 dollar, the opened cards I actually get to keep are probably going to be hundreds of the same handful of commons and uncommons that are exceptionally good for drafting and but largely worthless for constructed that I was taking during alpha. I could draft just the cards I want for constructed, but then I'll A) not be having much fun and B) likely lose in the first round, meaning I was actually better off just opening the packs out right and using the buck toward buying what I actually want off the AH. I could play sealed, but aside from the fact that I've never really cared much for sealed (so again not much fun) at 6 packs a pop I'll even burn through my kick starter packs in no time at all and then I'm looking at a very intimidating 13 dollar entree fee. Thats about the same price point that kept me from ever participating in MTGO drafts.

Long complaint made short(er), the current system employed by MTGO is still one I do not like, and while MTGO has obviously survived off it so I can't fault CZE for taking the easy road and following suit, I really wish they'd be more open to innovation and trying new things in this area. People forget that block buster was successful for years till red box came along and gave a value that appealed to a much larger audience. Copying MTGO's model will probably still allow them to be successful, but if a DTCG comes along that has a price system that actually competes with other games in the digital space and thus in a much wider audience including people like me, CZE could still find itself in trouble. I"m hopeful CZE's PvE will be better then anything else on the market, but supposedly they will be making no money off PvE, they are relying entirely on their PvP to be the money maker, I'd hate to lose Hex's amazing PvE because they were too close minded on the part of their game that will actually be paying their bills.

Having said all that, we're only in alpha, and they have repeatedly stated they have lots of original ideas for tournament structures, so maybe we will see some innovation eventually. Further, if packs end up going for as cheap as some suspect they will on the AH, that could potentially make tournament participation MUCH more reasonably priced. So I think, despite all my negatively above, there is still plenty of reasons I could end up participating in plenty of PvP, but time will tell. Hopefully no matter what happens, all the various wealthy oil barons, Egyptian princes, and bill gate's relatives like Gwaer, Svens, Saeijou, xenavire, hex colin, and numerous others who frequent these forums and routinely make statements that suggest that for them money is no object, will sustain the game themselves for the rest of us if we do end up only playing PvE. (please don't be offended anyone I name dropped, nor anyone with a 250+ dollar tier whose name I didn't drop, that was just meant to be in jest, but as a 31 year old man who can't even afford a car and thus has to walk or ride a beat up old bike to work it still boggles my mind that people spent upwards of 250 dollars on a single game, even as a donation, and yet many have no issue with continuing to spend more buying tournament entree fees just for set 1).

trapline
04-26-2014, 10:12 PM
I was thinking more on this and realized that what will wind up happening is some savvy fellow is going to come along, create a slick website with it's own leaderboard, tournaments and rankings and just third party a free to play HEX tournament site using the proving grounds as a battlefield. Someone is probably building it right now.

Yoss
04-26-2014, 10:14 PM
The main innovation I'm looking for is to have any format that can be made bite-size, done so. Draft needs the monolithic 8-man synchronous play, but Constructed and Sealed do not. They can be broken into tiered queues for Quarter, Semi, and Final that fire with 2 players rather than 8.

Gwaer
04-26-2014, 10:16 PM
Let me tell you a story, When I was slightly younger than 16 I ran away from home, and hitchhiked from Atlanta Georgia, to Yachats Oregon by way of baton rouge, houston, dallas, lubbock, pheonix, san diego, san jose, san francisco and many others. All told it took me a little over two years. I learned a lot of things about the world on that trip... Now granted today is my birthday, and I am now 32 years old so it was a while back... Most of these lessons still hold true today, a big one is that there is a lot of kindness in the world, and lot of people that will clothe you, and feed you, and give you a place to sleep for little more than some stories and a little bit of house work. I also learned that working a job you hate is not something that I could ever do, I can't count the number of times that people thought my story was inspirational, running away from an honestly pretty great family to strike out on my own. But people hate how tied down they are to a minimum wage job they hate. I saw a lot of people with weird hobbies, I learned how to blow glass to make pipes to sell on street corners, I learned a bit about metalworking, and a lot about the history of various places I was shacked up.

I'm back in atlanta now, I came back a very different person than the one that left, I've got a million stories from my foray across this country, and I have been to 17 other countries since then. I've got a lot of stories of the things that drove me to take that journey, I've been in fights, I've been held up at gunpoint many times, knife point too. I've slept in perfect strangers houses after only just meeting them.

You know the biggest lesson I learned though? Shit isn't that bad. These tiny problems that we need to dedicate 6+ paragraphs to, they aren't really that big of a problem. If we spent the same amount of energy fixing problems as complaining about them, or running from them; We wouldn't have anything left to complain about. Once PVE is out, you can focus your attention on the free to play stuff, then once you find some stuff, sell it for plat and pay for your tournament entries there. Hex is so much cheaper than magic, potentially alternate options may appear as time goes on and they get a sense of what their market is like, but there is no reason whatsoever to try to poopoo their business model yet. If anything, I think they'll likely need to come up with ways to charge us money just to pay the bills as it is. I'm very worried about this game even if it is hugely popular, not making enough money because of how damn generous the CZE team is, I've met a lot of people that are generous to a fault... Though they might be some of the happiest folk I've ever met... Lets just say their business ventures are not something that I find as alluring as Hex, and I'd very much like for them to charge us all more money out of the gate, and then later on lower prices if they're making enough, rather than shoot themselves in the foot and try to raise prices later.


I hope you enjoyed that extremely long and pretty much irrelevant trip down memory lane, but we got to something resembling a point eventually...

Also today is my birthday, and I can do whatever I want.

Lastly, I am not rich, not by any stretch, I'm pretty good with money, but I'm still paying off my tiers that I bought for Hex, I opened up a credit card with 0% interest for a year, and have been paying installments that will have it paid off the month before I get charged interest =P

bojanglesz
04-26-2014, 10:20 PM
Let me tell you a story, When I was slightly younger than 16 I ran away from home, and hitchhiked from Atlanta Georgia, to Yachats Oregon by way of baton rouge, houston, dallas, lubbock, pheonix, san diego, san jose, san francisco and many others. All told it took me a little over two years. I learned a lot of things about the world on that trip... Now granted today is my birthday, and I am now 32 years old so it was a while back... Most of these lessons still hold true today, a big one is that there is a lot of kindness in the world, and lot of people that will clothe you, and feed you, and give you a place to sleep for little more than some stories and a little bit of house work. I also learned that working a job you hate is not something that I could ever do, I can't count the number of times that people thought my story was inspirational, running away from an honestly pretty great family to strike out on my own. But people hate how tied down they are to a minimum wage job they hate. I saw a lot of people with weird hobbies, I learned how to blow glass to make pipes to sell on street corners, I learned a bit about metalworking, and a lot about the history of various places I was shacked up.

I'm back in atlanta now, I came back a very different person than the one that left, I've got a million stories from my foray across this country, and I have been to 17 other countries since then. I've got a lot of stories of the things that drove me to take that journey, I've been in fights, I've been held up at gunpoint many times, knife point too. I've slept in perfect strangers houses after only just meeting them.

You know the biggest lesson I learned though? Shit isn't that bad. These tiny problems that we need to dedicate 6+ paragraphs to, they aren't really that big of a problem. If we spent the same amount of energy fixing problems as complaining about them, or running from them; We wouldn't have anything left to complain about. Once PVE is out, you can focus your attention on the free to play stuff, then once you find some stuff, sell it for plat and pay for your tournament entries there. Hex is so much cheaper than magic, potentially alternate options may appear as time goes on and they get a sense of what their market is like, but there is no reason whatsoever to try to poopoo their business model yet. If anything, I think they'll likely need to come up with ways to charge us money just to pay the bills as it is. I'm very worried about this game even if it is hugely popular, not making enough money because of how damn generous the CZE team is, I've met a lot of people that are generous to a fault... Though they might be some of the happiest folk I've ever met... Lets just say their business ventures are not something that I find as alluring as Hex, and I'd very much like for them to charge us all more money out of the gate, and then later on lower prices if they're making enough, rather than shoot themselves in the foot and try to raise prices later.


I hope you enjoyed that extremely long and pretty much irrelevant trip down memory lane, but we got to something resembling a point eventually...

Also today is my birthday, and I can do whatever I want.

Lastly, I am not rich, not by any stretch, I'm pretty good with money, but I'm still paying off my tiers that I bought for Hex, I opened up a credit card with 0% interest for a year, and have been paying installments that will have it paid off the month before I get charged interest =P

1685

Gwaer
04-26-2014, 10:20 PM
=) You're welcome bojanglesz

I can answer the question that your image asked I suppose, because it is obvious to me what I am doing, but probably not to anyone else. I made an even more ridiculous post to counter the ridiculous post that danthemeek made me read.

Yoss
04-26-2014, 10:26 PM
Happy Birthday, Gwaer. ♥

trapline
04-26-2014, 10:44 PM
I think beta is the perfect time to bring stuff like this up... Corey's passion and enthusiastic efforts were what wound up selling me on buying a slacker backer, If I'd have heard about HEX earlier I'd have kickstarted it as well. I don't believe shot is that bad at all, but on my time on this crazy ball of rock I've also learned that you have to voice your concerns, feedback is what a Beta is all about.

I have no doubt this thread is being read and wheels are turning in the heads of the creative people that want to deliver a fantastic product that has wide reaching potential. We ate just looking for something affordable that can give us the thrill and entertainment on a scale that melds with our economic ability to play. Maybe its a once a weekend phantom draft ticket for VIP subscribers that you don't use packs or keep cards from, or some kind of ranked constructed leaderboard with gold as the fee.

It doesn't have to replace anything, just give a quick fun avenue for players that doesn't put a pay wall on pvp. I don't know about the auction house, or PVE but what I have right now is about twenty packs and a lack of desire to buy plat after laying down 60 bucks already, that's just me... but I can hit that hearthstone button, do my daily quests win a few matches and buy an arena ticket in under an hour... I want to play HEX draft, but that's become my yardstick now.

I'm not going to be the only person that sees it this way, and I think CZE knows that too. Happy birthday

Gwaer
04-26-2014, 10:50 PM
Just because PVE isn't out yet, doesn't mean they can give stuff away for free. A lot of people that have put in their money and now never plan to spend money again are just going to hate it until PVE launches. That's a perfectly acceptable decision for them to make, but they should know that up front. There won't be much for people unwilling to spend more money until PVE is out. Also, until PVE is out we won't know if these ideas are needed. They very well could be, but until the systems that are designed to appeal to people in your position are in place we cannot start tearing down the systems that are designed to actually keep the game going long term.

Thanks for the birthday wishes both Yoss, and trapline... I take my birthday pretty seriously. I even have a birthday cape that I wear all day once a year. I've promised myself that when I get old enough to not give a damn what anyone else thinks I will wear it every day.

Yoss
04-26-2014, 10:56 PM
If CZE doesn't make money, we don't have a game. It really is that simple.

It only gets complex in HOW they make the money. The CZE model they've sold since KS seems good enough so far. Hex is already price-competitive with Hearthstone, and blows MTGO out of the water. Let it ride for a bit.

DanTheMeek
04-26-2014, 11:09 PM
I hope you enjoyed that extremely long and pretty much irrelevant trip down memory lane, but we got to something resembling a point eventually...

Also today is my birthday, and I can do whatever I want.

Lastly, I am not rich, not by any stretch, I'm pretty good with money, but I'm still paying off my tiers that I bought for Hex, I opened up a credit card with 0% interest for a year, and have been paying installments that will have it paid off the month before I get charged interest =P

Wait, I could have done whatever I wanted a week ago, what a fool I was. Though I largely spent it with family so that was pretty much what I wanted anyway.

Just so we're clear, I love to write, like I've always had a nearly unhealthy obsession with it since I was little and wrote daily stories for the neighbor kid who'd come over to hear me read them to him, I bring that particular example up as I got in touch with him for the first time in years recently and one of the first things he told me was how much he missed the stories I used to write and read for him which you can't even imagine how heart warming that was to hear, I'm a grown man but he nearly made me cry. Anyway, my point is that writing 6+ paragraphs of unnecessarily long and verbose brain dumps of my opinions isn't expending energy for me, its actually the opposite, its the sort of thing I do to relax and recoup my energy.

Further, if you guys think I dump a lot of mini-novels on these forums you might be shocked to know how many I write and then never post. I constantly write up huge dissertations to threads on this forum, then close the browser window with out ever hitting send. The post I believer you're referencing came very close to suffering the same fate, after typing it up I kept minimizing the window and considering and reconsidering if I should hit post or not, and though I did eventually hit post, I actually came back just now to see if I could delete it lol. Obviously since you've replied to it, kind of too late now.

But the reason I wanted to delete it is largely because you're right (and I'm not just saying that because its your birthday), I feel I'm being way to harsh on their system. It IS half the price of MTGOs system and thats a big deal, and it sounds like they will be giving away a ton of free PvP content MTGO never did, like getting a pack with your pack via chests.

Having admitted that, I don't think my concerns are completely un-warranted, the digital space has changed immensely since MTGO first launched, both because of the success of steam and its concept of extremely low prices made up for by mass sales, but also because there are so many other rival DTCGs now, and most of them give out gobs of free PvP packs, often just for logging in, and whether or not they are actually giving a better value than Hex gives (in many cases the answer is actually no, they really aren't), the perception I can see many people having is exactly what Trapline expressed, that (especially compared to the other, newer, DTCGs on the market) Hex is using an archiec out dated price model for their PvP content.

Its also worth noting that since I first found the kick starter, my single biggest concern with this game has been, and continues to be, if this game can be financially succesful. I've been pushing companies of other DTCGs via their forums (and PMs) to do something similar to what Hex is doing for PvE for many many years now, but in all my suggestions PvE was always something you paid for, usually a small one time fee that gave you access to an entire campaign's worth of content. The thought that Hex's PvE content would be free was both cool... and honestly frightening to me. EVERY time we get an opportunity to chat with Corey or one of the other CZE devs I'm always tempted to broach this issue, but I never know quite how to phrase it, but there's a part of me that is genuinely worried that PvE will be every bit as awesome as I hope it will be... and the game will fail because everyone's just playing the PvE and only a small handful of players are actually paying to play PvP.

Hex's PvP has never excited me, and thats a problem. Toward the beginning of the alpha it was actually rather disappointing to me, toward the end of Alpha I became admittedly pretty enthralled with it, but I always still felt there was a good chance that once I had to pay real money to do these same things, I wouldn't do it. The thing that had, and continues to, excite me about Hex is its PvE... and if PvE will truly be the part of the game that makes them no money, that could very well mean I never spend on the game again unless its specifically for the purpose of donating to the game, as it largely was with the KS. Is that the business model Hex is hoping for, to make players love PvE so much they'll buy plat they don't need just to donate to the game? What IS the business model, the motivation they have for putting the time and money into PvE it will take to make it as awesome as Corey wants it to be beyond the fact that Corey just wants it to be awesome, and if thats the only motivation, is that sustainable? From what I understand the game nearly went under if not for the unprecedented success of the kick starter, will we need another "keep Hex alive, donate to see 3 more sets of Hex get funded" KS some where down the line? These are the questions that keep me up at night.

But to your interesting hitch hiking story, you are also right about another thing, and that is in the grand scheme of things all my worrys and complaints aren't that important. There are people much worse off then me or you or Corey in this world dealing with real problems, worried about where they're going to find their next meal then whether some virtual card game is going to be successful. That won't stop me from caring about this game though. If I lamented every bad thing happening in this world, I'd die of depression, if I tried to help everyone who needed help, I'd die of exhaustion, all I can do is help those in front of and not be afraid to step out of my comfort zone if the opportunity to make a difference presents itself. I'll never claim to be selfless, but I do try to make a difference in things that matter too.

I don't envy your road trip, but I fully believe the fact that you got through it made you a stronger, wiser, person for the experience, so its good to know its something you wear like a badge as you should.

mach
04-26-2014, 11:09 PM
If CZE doesn't make money, we don't have a game. It really is that simple.

It only gets complex in HOW they make the money. The CZE model they've sold since KS seems good enough so far. Hex is already price-competitive with Hearthstone, and blows MTGO out of the water. Let it ride for a bit.

I'd say their model is untested at this point. Essentially, they're using the MTGO model, except at 50% of the price for everything.

However, the MTGO model has a significant problem. It depends on cards retaining value to work. However, the supply of cards keeps increasing (due to Limited play). So they've got to find a way to keep prices from crashing. MTGO has two mechanics for this: redemption and new sets. Redemption is obviously not an option for Hex. So the question is whether they can release sets frequently enough to keep prices stable. Of course, release sets too frequently and you run into problems as well.

Can they pull it off? That remains to be seen. I'm sure they know what they're doing, but that doesn't matter if you're actually attempting the impossible. Hopefully they have a plan B so that the game can survive somehow even if the initial business model fails.

Gwaer
04-26-2014, 11:27 PM
Dan, my second point was not so much that hex or any issue with hex is meaningless, but that our fears of the issue are far greater than the actual issue, you're right there are real problems that are actually problems, the monetization schema of this game is not one of those things, even if I care solely about hex, the way the game is monetized can change in the future if necessary.

to your point about their business model. There will always be a rather large base of people that do not enjoy pve simply because it is not against other players, they'll think it's stupid, and worthless. Those people are generally also used to spending quite a lot of money to make their pvp hobbies go, be that mtgo, or other microtransation based games, or even things like paintball. Then there are the pve players that don't have a lot of time because they are too busy working, and just want to unwind and be awesome in the PVE campaign, those people will buy plat, just so they can buy gold on the AH with it. People in a position where they want to play PVP but can't afford it can do PVE and sell that gold to them, and now have plat, also any special items that are very valuable. Currently we only have half of the monetization strategy, PVE brings in the masses, some percentage of those people either get hooked on PVP or just want a shortcut to get caught up with PVE so they buy plat.

Mach, Hex has crafting to destroy cards to keep the card numbers down, and they are planning on releasing new PVP sets regularly just like MTG, so rather than redemption for physical cards, they have redemption for void society craftiness, plus a lot of those cards as they begin to get cheaper and cheaper will go to PVE players for gold, and effectively come out of the PVP pool.

trapline
04-27-2014, 12:08 AM
If plat is exchangeable for gold on the auction house as you say, then that goes a very, very long way towards assuaging my concerns.
Having played similar systems where in game earned currency can be used to purchase whatever RMT currency a game uses on an auction house, if implementation is well done it's actually a fair method. Star trek online has this in place and while the game is not very fun, the free to play system they have is pretty close to this and isn't all that bad, guild wars2 also has that style.
I could live with that and be happy, hopefully that's an option they have on the table.

mach
04-27-2014, 03:01 AM
Mach, Hex has crafting to destroy cards to keep the card numbers down, and they are planning on releasing new PVP sets regularly just like MTG, so rather than redemption for physical cards, they have redemption for void society craftiness, plus a lot of those cards as they begin to get cheaper and cheaper will go to PVE players for gold, and effectively come out of the PVP pool.

Crafting won't help. The issue isn't the value of the cards which people will be destroying...those cards will always be worth very little. The issue is the value of the top 10% of the cards, where 90%+ of the value of the set will be concentrated. Very few people will be destroying these cards (since doing so would be a big loss), so crafting won't reduce the supply by much.

In other words, if the value of the chase cards drops enough that people are voiding them or selling them for gold, you're already at the point where cards have insufficient value and the business model collapses.

On MTGO there are 4 new normal sets a year. Even with redemption, value decline is a problem, so towards the end of each set's run they reduce the rate of new supply with things like Cube and Flashback drafts. This kind of thing won't be an option for Hex for a while.

This isn't an easy problem for CZE to solve. I don't think it's impossible to make it work, but the margin of success will be narrow.

AstaSyneri
04-27-2014, 09:23 AM
Happy Birthday, Gwaer. I liked your Journey to the West story ;-). A lot of truth in there: Complain less, do more.

My interest is primarily into PvE, but I find myself hugely enjoying the game - building decks, trying them agains the AI or guild friends, getting to know the cards and those new guildmates. It's a blast so far and I don't see it end anytime soon.

I never played Magic and their online pricing system makes me sick, but Hex in comparison is an extremely fair scheme. Apart from those Primal packs and those chests offer a lot of value/entertainment.

When I backed, I calculted the total cost of ownership for me (because I am unable to play with "just a few starters and boosters") and ended up with a very good yield, compared to other TCGs. Well, if they were still around, and I were able to go to events. Now I have them at my fingertips, while I can still be here in case the kids need somebody. Win-Win.

I have heard the "oh, it's so unfair/expensive" arguments since the dawn of TCGs and quite frankly I am sick of it. TCG development is an extremely involved process, due to the extreme complexity. While Hex doesn't have to print (a major cost factor), programming this doesn't come cheap. Get into the VIP program and get some very cheap boosters and build from there by investing time, or drop the game entirely - just quit the complaining.

I am pretty amazed by people thinking that PvE players will not add value. While we yet have to see any content, I am convinced that you'll need a sizable amount of Set 1 cards to build successful decks, if you want to progress past the few introductory dungeons. A few of those opponents are going to be right scary.

But we'll see about that in due time. Now I got to plan and play a deck around those Vampire Kings I got lucky with...

Gwaer
04-27-2014, 09:28 AM
Thanks, Asta

@mach you're making a lot of assumptions about crafting, it's job is to remove cards from the game so it makes sense to me that on some level more powerful cards will wield better mats, potentially you can only get certain craft goods from a certain class of card. We've no idea how it will work.

cooperflood
04-27-2014, 09:37 AM
I am pretty amazed by people thinking that PvE players will not add value. While we yet have to see any content, I am convinced that you'll need a sizable amount of Set 1 cards to build successful decks, if you want to progress past the few introductory dungeons. A few of those opponents are going to be right scary.

Additionally I wouldn't be surprised if a significant amount of those PVE decks are going to require cards that aren't popular in the PVP world do to Equipment, Heroes, and the Dungeons themselves.

Xenavire
04-27-2014, 09:37 AM
Thanks, Asta

@mach you're making a lot of assumptions about crafting, it's job is to remove cards from the game so it makes sense to me that on some level more powerful cards will wield better mats, potentially you can only get certain craft goods from a certain class of card. We've no idea how it will work.

Not much to say here, but happy birthday Gwaer. Hope you enjoy yours as much as I did mine.

Yoss
04-27-2014, 02:39 PM
If plat is exchangeable for gold on the auction house as you say, then that goes a very, very long way towards assuaging my concerns.
Having played similar systems where in game earned currency can be used to purchase whatever RMT currency a game uses on an auction house, if implementation is well done it's actually a fair method. Star trek online has this in place and while the game is not very fun, the free to play system they have is pretty close to this and isn't all that bad, guild wars2 also has that style.
I could live with that and be happy, hopefully that's an option they have on the table.

Chark (CZE) confirmed that Plat:Gold conversion will be possible player-to-player, which will meet the need (awkwardly). So far they are not planning to have it on the Auction House, but I and others are lobbying for it. Even better if they make it bid/ask since currency is perfectly fungible unlike the double-backed cards.

Kami
04-27-2014, 02:48 PM
Chark (CZE) confirmed that Plat:Gold conversion will be possible player-to-player, which will meet the need (awkwardly). So far they are not planning to have it on the Auction House, but I and others are lobbying for it. Even better if they make it bid/ask since currency is perfectly fungible unlike the double-backed cards.

Wouldn't this completely destroy the gold value if this was built into the game through AH?

That would essentially favour those who can spend a lot of money for Platinum and then convert that to gold.

Yoss
04-27-2014, 03:04 PM
Wouldn't this completely destroy the gold value if this was built into the game through AH?

That would essentially favour those who can spend a lot of money for Platinum and then convert that to gold.

Uhm... not in any way that I can think of. If your worry is valid (I'm not sure it is), then you are worried about Gold:Plat being possible (it will be), NOT about how it is done. Whether it is done on AH or by trade chat only matters for convenience, not for answering the question: "Should Gold:Plat conversion be possible?".

If I can spend a lot of money for Plat and convert to Gold, then I already will be able to through trade chat. Putting it on the AH is purely convenience, not a basic enabler.

Putting it on the AH also adds another great Gold sink if they charge some small fee.

Lawlschool
04-27-2014, 03:08 PM
Wouldn't this completely destroy the gold value if this was built into the game through AH?

That would essentially favour those who can spend a lot of money for Platinum and then convert that to gold.

Only if the Gold was supplied by CZE. If it's more like a currency exchange (where Gold and Plat are supplied by players), then there's nothing to worry about.

Kami
04-27-2014, 03:10 PM
Uhm... not in any way that I can think of. If your worry is valid (I'm not sure it is), then you are worried about Gold:Plat being possible (it will be), NOT about how it is done. Whether it is done on AH or by trade chat only matters for convenience, not for answering the question: "Should Gold:Plat conversion be possible?".

If I can spend a lot of money for Plat and convert to Gold, then I already will be able to through trade chat. Putting it on the AH is purely convenience, not a basic enabler.

Putting it on the AH also adds another great Gold sink if they charge some small fee.

No, I literally meant Plat -> Gold conversion.

Just take a look at MMORPG black markets for gold sellers.

Because gold is an infinite resource (i.e. it can be generated from nothing just by playing) and platinum is a limited resource (i.e. you can only earn it by purchasing with money), this would end up inflating the prices of anything that you would trade for with gold.

Look at Diablo 3's AH before it was terminated. Things went from a few million gold to hundreds of millions of gold PER ITEM on the AH because of the ability to convert money to gold (or in this case, money -> plat -> gold).

(Note, the gold sold on the AH was funded by players - even with Blizzard taking a fairly large cut, inflation still dominated).

Idus
04-27-2014, 03:13 PM
Wouldn't this completely destroy the gold value if this was built into the game through AH?

That would essentially favour those who can spend a lot of money for Platinum and then convert that to gold.

What's to stop someone buying a card for platinum, and then just turn around and sell that card again for gold? It may slow down the transaction, and it's dependent on player demand, but it's not going to stop the conversion process, unless PvP cards can only be sold for plat, and PvE cards only for gold, which I certainly hope isn't the case.

Gwaer
04-27-2014, 03:13 PM
Gold was duped a lot in D3 though, and so were items. That's one thing that CZE should look at very closely, Blizz had a policy of always favoring the gamer when things went missing, etc. but had no ability to track down the items and remove them, so they just generated more, blizzard was 100% behind the problems with the d3 economy.

Yoss
04-27-2014, 03:14 PM
If you don't have good gold sinks to give gold value, you'll have that problem. The WoF is a pretty good start at sucking up gold. Perhaps CZE still has more ideas. As long as the sinks are bigger than the faucets, things should work out.

Did Diablo 3 have any good use for gold other than the AH? I know D2 didn't, but I never played the train wreck that was D3.

Kami
04-27-2014, 03:14 PM
What's to stop someone buying a card for platinum, and then just turn around and sell that card again for gold? It may slow down the transaction, and it's dependent on player demand, but it's not going to stop the conversion process, unless PvP cards can only be sold for plat, and PvE cards only for gold, which I certainly hope isn't the case.

IIRC, the AH transactions can only be done via Platinum.

Gwaer
04-27-2014, 03:16 PM
IIRC, the AH transactions can only be done via Platinum.

That's not correct, AH can be gold or plat. players can turn plat into gold. The issue will be making sure that gold is legitimate, and not created by a bug, if there's a finite supply of it, then gold will have a decent value, which is very good. if it is duped, or exploited into existence, that is bad. the ability to trade between the two is not a problem, as long as the source of both currencies are well controlled.

Lawlschool
04-27-2014, 03:17 PM
No, I literally meant Plat -> Gold conversion.

Just take a look at MMORPG black markets for gold sellers.

Because gold is an infinite resource (i.e. it can be generated from nothing just by playing) and platinum is a limited resource (i.e. you can only earn it by purchasing with money), this would end up inflating the prices of anything that you would trade for with gold.

Look at Diablo 3's AH before it was terminated. Things went from a few million gold to hundreds of millions of gold PER ITEM on the AH because of the ability to convert money to gold (or in this case, money -> plat -> gold).

(Note, the gold sold on the AH was funded by players - even with Blizzard taking a fairly large cut, inflation still dominated).

I think a large part of the inflation had more to do with how gold was introduced in to the game (very easily) and the lack of any adequate gold-sinks than the fact that you could buy gold with money. CZE seems very aware of this (Cory's made digs at the cluster-fuck of D3's RMAH and they've talked about being careful with how Gold is introduced in chat) so I don't think hyperinflation is going to be a big problem.

Gwaer
04-27-2014, 03:25 PM
The best thing CZE can do, if everything is actually trackable, when they find out that there has been an exploit and anything was duped or created, they should immediately remove everything, even if it already is in someone elses possession. If you're running around with counterfeit money, the government doesn't care if you made it or not, they're going to seize it either way.

Perhaps there can be some protections for AH transactions, where things that was traded for the counterfeit good are returned, but I think person to person trades should have no such protection, and that's one of the primary reasons you use the AH. Trade among people you trust however you like, but use the AH for anonymous purchases.

Idus
04-27-2014, 03:46 PM
This thread has gone a down a bit of a rat hole, but since Asta is my guild mate, I hope he'll forgive me for continuing it :)

The big problem here is we're all making assumptions, and we could all be wrong, or some could be spot on, but we don't know who is who. As indicated by several people, balancing the gold economy is the key to keeping the value of both platinum and gold even.

We've seen one gold sink - the wheel of fate. I believe crafting will be another big gold sink, and in my mind, a very fun one at that, and I'm sure there will be others, but my big focus is going to be on crafting, and I think the one area that no one has explored, which will be really big, is recipes. Like all previous MMO's though, it very easy to completely mess up the crafting system in a game and have it either end up being completely irrelevant to the game, or just failing as a balanced sink. All we can do is hope that CZE do a good job, and when we get more info, I'll certainly be providing plenty of feedback.

Until then, as another who is just biding time with PvP until PvE is introduced, and who has more spare time than spare money, I will be doing everything I can to try and use my KS rewards optimally so I have to make minimal investment on tournament entry fees, as a way to try and get the most value out of opening my boosters.

I hope in the long run, my time spent in PvE will be able to be turned into a way of keeping up with the PvP set releases. Whether this be via the AH directly selling gold for plat, indirectly by selling PvE gear to PvP players who hate PvE time commitments, but want some of the perks, or by trading directly with my trusted guild mates, it will happen, and it's CZE's call as to how difficult it is, and how much responsibility they want to take for the transactions.

Niedar
04-27-2014, 04:28 PM
I'd say their model is untested at this point. Essentially, they're using the MTGO model, except at 50% of the price for everything.

However, the MTGO model has a significant problem. It depends on cards retaining value to work. However, the supply of cards keeps increasing (due to Limited play). So they've got to find a way to keep prices from crashing. MTGO has two mechanics for this: redemption and new sets. Redemption is obviously not an option for Hex. So the question is whether they can release sets frequently enough to keep prices stable. Of course, release sets too frequently and you run into problems as well.

Can they pull it off? That remains to be seen. I'm sure they know what they're doing, but that doesn't matter if you're actually attempting the impossible. Hopefully they have a plan B so that the game can survive somehow even if the initial business model fails.

They can play with the prizes for constructed tournaments. Right now the prize is only packs but if they instead were giving prizes in platinum or a combination of packs and prizes this means less boosters are entering the economy. The less boosters the higher the cost of packs on the AH and the more expensive it becomes to draft which in turn lowers the amount of packs being opened.

Basically by adjusting the the payout of constructed tournaments and by making constructed more enticing you can manipulate the market a little bit to make it so less packs are opened and less packs even exist and cards retain some value.

They can then balance making draft more expensive by holding special events where it is cheaper but since it would not be an unlimited sit and go event that would not be a huge problem. There are probably other methods as well, just pointing out a way to control the market without actually suggesting they do it.