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Arcane360
04-24-2014, 06:51 PM
First off, I know there are Hex Fanboys out there that will dismiss this post, but so be it.
I have been playing in Alpha for a while, and when the server load was high, this game is just non-playable.
Guess what happened the first day of "Closed Beta"? Servers are overloaded, and the game is unplayable.
Never changed or fixed. The card mechanics may be ready for beta, but if people cant play the game, cards are useless. PvE and Tournaments are not around, which are the appeal of this game for me. There is a reason that many games have horrible launches, they rush the game out, so they can meet a company deadline. I have heard people from companies say "It's not behind until we miss the date." That is complete BS and those are the people who sacrifice quality at the sake for being on time. I would have been more than happy to see Alpha last longer, so that their infrastructure could get fixed. BOO on a very bad decision. Left a very bad taste in my mouth. I even brag on Cryptozoic to others, but no more.

Xenavire
04-24-2014, 06:54 PM
I understand. I won't dismiss you at all. But I think you are looking at this the wrong way - this is the biggest stress test CZE has ever had. On new servers. They need this to fix up an holes left in the code. Us breaking it down today, means a brighter future for all Hex players.

It might be a bitter, sad day right now, but in a few months we will remember this week fondly.

Mahes
04-24-2014, 07:01 PM
I would point out that almost every online game has server problems when initially "Released". Not when they go to Beta but when the game is released to the public. I remember when Worlds of Warcraft first released. They had horrible server issues for a full month and look what still happened with that game. Give them some time to aclimate the system to the new servers. When this game goes live then we can cry when the servers are failing. Even then though, I would not be surprised if it took a couple of days to work the kinks out.

Arbiter
04-24-2014, 07:02 PM
I don't think I qualify as a fanboy as I'm not unfailingly positive, but on this point I think you have to give them some slack. The alpha was on a different and restricted set of servers. The closed beta marks the move to new servers. These are not alpha server issues that should have been resolved (but hopefully experience in dealing with alpha server issues means it will go faster).

I'd be happy if I could log on (please fix the issue for those of us who want to use an account which was not used in alpha, and thus cannot log on to beta or create an account using the methodology outlined in the email invite).

Xenavire
04-24-2014, 07:03 PM
I would point out that almost every online game has server problems when initially "Released". Not when they go to Beta but when the game is released to the public. I remember when Worlds of Warcraft first released. They had horrible server issues for a full month and look what still happened with that game. Give them some time to aclimate the system to the new servers. When this game goes live then we can cry when the servers are failing. Even then though, I would not be surprised if it took a couple of days to work the kinks out.

Oh god, I was in the MoP Beta. That was unplayable for weeks, and Blizz is a AAA developer - CZE blows them out of the water by comparison.

Daer
04-24-2014, 07:08 PM
Blizzard was still issuing free days a year after launch because the game was still unplayable sometimes.

issowi
04-24-2014, 07:08 PM
Here is my problem with it. Yes it is now "beta" and there will be technical challenges to overcome and still mechanics to implement etc. Though how many excuses does a company get for breaking the same thing? Maybe the servers are likely new and that is the trouble but why make a big deal about going into beta when you aren't sure your game is even playable at that phase? If you tell me there is still testing, then don't make this the big launch with no more character wipes etc. Do a soft beta launch and then wipe it and put out the codes and backer rewards etc.

I can see it now, the same people who kept saying give it time its alpha will say give it time its closed beta to give it time its open beta to give it time it just released. Let's be honest with ourselves the kickstarter date is way off and they are continuously having the same issues repeated. Doesn't spur a whole lot of confidence for the future. Hopefully my unhappiness with dropping $250 for a dungeon crawler tier goes away when PvE comes out but at this point I'm not sure it'll release and be playable within the next 2-3 months.

DataDragon
04-24-2014, 07:09 PM
First time on the new permanent hardware means tons of unknowns that no amount of testing and pre-planning can truly make foolproof. It is rougher than we would like, but it will get better fairly quickly.
I am quite sorry that you are experiencing this, but we are working on it.

Xenavire
04-24-2014, 07:11 PM
First time on the new permanent hardware means tons of unknowns that no amount of testing and pre-planning can truly make foolproof. It is rougher than we would like, but it will get better fairly quickly.
I am quite sorry that you are experiencing this, but we are working on it.

After seeing how you guys handled alpha, I have no reason to be worried. Bored, sure, worried, no. :p

If you could update the servers so that the AI worked, that would scratch the itch. ^_^

SilverDirewolf
04-24-2014, 07:27 PM
It's not something a few free primal packs won't fix! *wink wink*

Mahes
04-24-2014, 07:28 PM
It's not something a few free primal packs won't fix! *wink wink*

They wish just handing out a few free primals would fix the problem.

DRawsm
04-24-2014, 07:37 PM
something people here do seem to understand that hex is still buggy. the thing that i always remind myself of is that so are 90% of full release game (bf4 anybody?) and were still in day 2 of beta, by the time hex is released to the general public in its finished state it will be a shining example of a mmo game launch for years to come! @ Datadragon: while you feel obligated to apologize imo you need not, the log in issues and bugs found today for each one of us are 1000 players in the future who wouldn't otherwise play hex because they had one problem and gave up.

a marshal artist who can break bricks with his bare hands must have very strong bones and to get those bones he must train over years of practice to harden them through micro fractures and healing. alpha was a long and arduous journey of bug hunts and i'm sure beta will be similar but in the end of our journey hex will become the jackie chan/bruce lee of tcg's as opposed to the no name quitter. so get out there break it and help it grow stronger(just like bones!)

Wystii
04-24-2014, 07:39 PM
Hey... Sure it's being up and down right now... but while I stalled in one game vs the AI, I managed to finish another without any issues. The card manager works... I'm missing a few favourite cards from Alpha, but I was expecting that. I was spewing and frustrated last night after first downloading the beta client and then discovering I had to wait almost 12 hours for the maintenance to get in to play. BUT!!! I can play it on my Macbook! (so excited). Now I hope I can still play it on my PC. I'm worried that my older Mac won't handle it as well, but we'll see. I'll be guaranteed a game I can play away from home, which makes me so happy.

I didn't draft in Alpha, so it'll be a new experience for me. This is still a testing period, right? So things are still not supposed to quite work, yet. It's working better than when Alpha first started. That's progress right? I played a lot in the early alpha stages and that was a nightmare. So their time estimates are way out, for me it's dissapointing, but not a deal breaker. If this was happening at the official launch... but it isn't. Not yet, anyway. ^_^

Zomnivore
04-24-2014, 07:51 PM
It was always going to be a mess day one week 1.

Are you kidding me, calm your duckets.

Quasari
04-24-2014, 07:54 PM
I guess people are too used to the term Beta being used for a release canidate released for the general public as a marketing tool. Generally beta's are started when feature complete(or at a point where the devs deem it good enough) and there aren't any machine destroying bugs. Beta can still be unstable. This version is still worlds ahead of where alpha was.

dwebber88
04-24-2014, 07:56 PM
First off, I know there are Hex Fanboys out there that will dismiss this post, but so be it.
I have been playing in Alpha for a while, and when the server load was high, this game is just non-playable.
Guess what happened the first day of "Closed Beta"? Servers are overloaded, and the game is unplayable.
Never changed or fixed. The card mechanics may be ready for beta, but if people cant play the game, cards are useless. PvE and Tournaments are not around, which are the appeal of this game for me. There is a reason that many games have horrible launches, they rush the game out, so they can meet a company deadline. I have heard people from companies say "It's not behind until we miss the date." That is complete BS and those are the people who sacrifice quality at the sake for being on time. I would have been more than happy to see Alpha last longer, so that their infrastructure could get fixed. BOO on a very bad decision. Left a very bad taste in my mouth. I even brag on Cryptozoic to others, but no more.

I dont wanna sound like a hater here, but if you have a slight memmory leak in your code (which can happen anywhere in your code), this will happen. So no bad decision or anything. You're just frustrated its one of those 3-day-cant-play times where they are growing and moving forward fast.

Its beta, things like this (just like in alpha) happen. the word "Closed" contributes to that.


I guess people are too used to the term Beta being used for a release canidate released for the general public as a marketing tool. Generally beta's are started when feature complete(or at a point where the devs deem it good enough) and there aren't any machine destroying bugs. Beta can still be unstable. This version is still worlds ahead of where alpha was.

Exactly. Also, i'm sure that they needed the betaclient (an improved client) to move further forward.

Badger
04-24-2014, 07:57 PM
First off, I know there are Hex Fanboys out there that will dismiss this post, but so be it.
I have been playing in Alpha for a while, and when the server load was high, this game is just non-playable.
Guess what happened the first day of "Closed Beta"? Servers are overloaded, and the game is unplayable.
Never changed or fixed. The card mechanics may be ready for beta, but if people cant play the game, cards are useless. PvE and Tournaments are not around, which are the appeal of this game for me. There is a reason that many games have horrible launches, they rush the game out, so they can meet a company deadline. I have heard people from companies say "It's not behind until we miss the date." That is complete BS and those are the people who sacrifice quality at the sake for being on time. I would have been more than happy to see Alpha last longer, so that their infrastructure could get fixed. BOO on a very bad decision. Left a very bad taste in my mouth. I even brag on Cryptozoic to others, but no more.

So you would have preferred to wait longer not playing hex to have a better play experience at a later date?
Umm, that option is totally available to you right now.

larryhl
04-24-2014, 07:58 PM
Entering my free weekly draft for a year code before the servers went down is looking more and more like a really bad decision. Hopefully there's some sort of compensation in the pipeline.

dwebber88
04-24-2014, 08:01 PM
Entering my free weekly draft for a year code before the servers went down is looking more and more like a really bad decision. Hopefully there's some sort of compensation in the pipeline.

I dont see why this could be bad?

Pretty much all bugs for the moment are either visual bugs or server stability. You wont lose your weekly draft. (and if you actually do, there's always the support desk)

issowi
04-24-2014, 08:02 PM
I'm not saying they aren't making progress. My frustrations are around the timing and the repeated issues they are having. Kickstarter was funded June 7th 2013 with an estimated date for rewards Sept 2013. We are just hitting beta last week of April and there are still server and card issues... These 2 things are what make a MMO TCG actually work. Yes we finally got a rewards but they aren't 100% functional yet (as I am a dungeon crawler tier and there is no PvE yet).

I also agree betas are generally feature complete with issues to be worked out. This isn't even feature complete though, maybe 50% complete as again you are missing some major major pieces of the game (PvE, Auction House, Mercs, etc). Though they made sure to be able to let you buy plat...

Xenavire
04-24-2014, 08:05 PM
I dont see why this could be bad?

Pretty much all bugs for the moment are either visual bugs or server stability. You wont lose your weekly draft. (and if you actually do, there's always the support desk)

Sounds like there is, so I wouldn't worry.

Niedar
04-24-2014, 08:13 PM
But this is beta defense kind of loses a lot of its meaning when you are collecting revenue from it just like a launched product would.

Xenavire
04-24-2014, 08:27 PM
But this is beta defense kind of loses a lot of its meaning when you are collecting revenue from it just like a launched product would.

But all the paid systems are functioning correctly (except tournament entry). The stuff you are paying for is secure, it is the other features that need some work, and that is exactly what is happening.

DreamPuppet
04-24-2014, 08:31 PM
Every beta has problems, i expect problems from a beta. The 1 thing i don't like about whats happening with Hex right now is having to pay to be a tester. It just stinks of "well we're out of money and we need to get some now" and it just doesn't feel right to me.

Alpha and closed betas are to have future customers help prepare the final product, not to start cashing in; that is what open beta and releases are for.

Xenavire
04-24-2014, 08:55 PM
Every beta has problems, i expect problems from a beta. The 1 thing i don't like about whats happening with Hex right now is having to pay to be a tester. It just stinks of "well we're out of money and we need to get some now" and it just doesn't feel right to me.

Alpha and closed betas are to have future customers help prepare the final product, not to start cashing in; that is what open beta and releases are for.

We already did the 'free' testing - this is no different from Hearthstone charging for packs in its own beta (except there will be no wipes in Hex anymore.)

I wouldn't call it standard practice exactly, but it isn't uncommon for beta testers to test payment aystems with live/real cash.

hex_colin
04-24-2014, 08:55 PM
Every beta has problems, i expect problems from a beta. The 1 thing i don't like about whats happening with Hex right now is having to pay to be a tester. It just stinks of "well we're out of money and we need to get some now" and it just doesn't feel right to me.

Alpha and closed betas are to have future customers help prepare the final product, not to start cashing in; that is what open beta and releases are for.

How do you need to pay to test? You can choose to not play and wait out the bugs. Or just use your free starter and play games. Or use your backer rewards but not invest any more money in the game. CZE is not forcing you to give them money.

Granted, it's a bit annoying not to be able to play, but the REALLY important stuff like inventory, and pack opening, and platinum purchasing, etc. looks to be in pretty good shape. A couple of days from now we'll be so far ahead of where we were at the end of Alpha. Such impatience...

DreamPuppet
04-24-2014, 09:24 PM
How do you need to pay to test? You can choose to not play and wait out the bugs... Such impatience...

You've got me all wrong sir, i'm not impatient at all and i will be waiting until i start seeing posts about the game being playable before even attempting to log in, same as i did for alpha.

Maybe i'm just old fashioned and not use to seeing price tags on products that aren't fit for purpose yet...lol

Cereal
04-24-2014, 09:29 PM
Maybe i'm just old fashioned and not use to seeing price tags on products that aren't fit for purpose yet...lol

The only price tag you were required to pay was for the Kickstarter/Slacker Backer. And the very nature of those items is that the product isn't "fit for purpose yet", is it not?

chili
04-24-2014, 09:30 PM
You've got me all wrong sir, i'm not impatient at all and i will be waiting until i start seeing posts about the game being playable before even attempting to log in, same as i did for alpha.

Maybe i'm just old fashioned and not use to seeing price tags on products that aren't fit for purpose yet...lol

Yeah it sort of sucks that to get vilified for having demands and standards before you are being charged for something. I think that they should have offered 1-2 weeks of no platinum entry fees for tournaments or something because of how broken everything is and then start charging once at least the major bugs have been fixed

Niedar
04-24-2014, 09:32 PM
We already did the 'free' testing - this is no different from Hearthstone charging for packs in its own beta (except there will be no wipes in Hex anymore.)

I wouldn't call it standard practice exactly, but it isn't uncommon for beta testers to test payment aystems with live/real cash.

The no more wipes is a pretty huge difference and the hearthstone beta would make the Hex beta look more like a pre-alpha. Sure blizzard was collecting money during beta but at the end of beta everything was reset giving you back your fake money to spend again. This means that if a person didn't want to deal with a buggy version of the game they are not missing out on anything because on launch they are in the exact same place as people who played the beta minus some experience.

In Hex, this is it. No wipe, you get all your rewards and it is not even clear what happens if you don't claim your rewards now or if you do claim them and decide the beta is too buggy for you, you start missing out on your free drafts every week. How long will be be in closed beta? Open beta? Who knows, we could still be using the open beta label months down the road and now set 2 has already come out. Set 3?

This is why I said, the beta label doesn't mean much because this is the equivalent of a launch but with broken software, if you don't play it you aren't missing out on the beta of a game but the start of the actual game.

CoS
04-24-2014, 09:36 PM
This is an interesting point! If I choose to wait to redeem my codes (including my 1 year of free weekly drafts) do I miss out on each weekly draft that was closed beta?!?!?!?

joseph5185
04-24-2014, 10:03 PM
Simply a misunderstanding and not understanding everything that is involved on such a mass scale.

That is all.

joseph5185
04-24-2014, 10:06 PM
Simply a misunderstanding and not understanding everything that is involved on such a mass scale.

That is all.

EDIT: I would like to add impatience to this as well. This type of thread simply isn't needed and hopefully some, if not all, will agree with me.

Everyone wants it to be perfect. TRUST ME: NO ONE WANTS THAT MORE THAN CZE THEMSELVES, but it's going to take time.

It's taking considerable time than initially anticipated. So be it. This is the world known as IT/Programming, etc...

And to everyone else, yes we are so far ahead of where we were compared to Alpha. BTW, I love the new patcher.

Arbiter
04-24-2014, 10:19 PM
The no more wipes is a pretty huge difference and the hearthstone beta would make the Hex beta look more like a pre-alpha. Sure blizzard was collecting money during beta but at the end of beta everything was reset giving you back your fake money to spend again. This means that if a person didn't want to deal with a buggy version of the game they are not missing out on anything because on launch they are in the exact same place as people who played the beta minus some experience.

In Hex, this is it. No wipe, you get all your rewards and it is not even clear what happens if you don't claim your rewards now or if you do claim them and decide the beta is too buggy for you, you start missing out on your free drafts every week. How long will be be in closed beta? Open beta? Who knows, we could still be using the open beta label months down the road and now set 2 has already come out. Set 3?

This is why I said, the beta label doesn't mean much because this is the equivalent of a launch but with broken software, if you don't play it you aren't missing out on the beta of a game but the start of the actual game.

This is incorrect. The wipe in Hearthstone happened in the middle of closed beta (it was just before I got my invite, and I was in closed beta for a month or two). Also, fake money wasn't returned, rather you got gold equivalent to your real money pack / arena purchases (so if you spent $50 to get 40 packs, you got 4000 gold, but if you spent 10K gold on 100 packs you got nothing) The reason that the monetisation is here is the same reason it was in Hearthstone - it needs to be tested, it is a fundamental part of the game. If you don't like testing it, no one will fault you if you avoid it. Incidentally, Hearthstones reset was due to the game shifting to their production server, which necessitated a wipe.

Beta in this case, does mean beta. There are still features to go, things to be implemented before release. They've been upfront about that, and upfront about what will happen to people impacted by a bug in Beta when they are undertaking a paid activity.

bizznach
04-24-2014, 10:59 PM
holy hell its beta.
when did beta EVER mean a finished product...
a beta is supposed to be broken.
so they can put live a UNBROKEN game.
suck it up soldier and bring on the bugs!

joseph5185
04-24-2014, 11:05 PM
holy hell its beta.
when did beta EVER mean a finished product...
a beta is supposed to be broken.
so they can put live a UNBROKEN game.
suck it up soldier and bring on the bugs!

+1

Mike411
04-24-2014, 11:06 PM
I have been playing in Alpha for a while, and when the server load was high, this game is just non-playable. *snip*

Alpha and Beta are not full release, they are phases to fix bugs before full release. Our role is to help them do that, and if you're not willing to, that's fine, you should come back at full release.

joseph5185
04-24-2014, 11:14 PM
Alpha and Beta are not full release, they are phases to fix bugs before full release. Our role is to help them do that, and if you're not willing to, that's fine, you should come back at full release.

...and have fun in the process! =)

ArcaneWeapon
04-24-2014, 11:23 PM
If anyone actually expected this to launch flawlessly, they haven't been playing huge player-base server based games for the last 3+ years. This is not something to bash Crypto on. The game is going to be down for a few days, it's not going anywhere, failing because of this, or anything like that. You will have YEARS to play this game.

Calm. Down.

Gwaer
04-24-2014, 11:26 PM
The wow launch. Lol. Actual release of the most popular game in the worl several years running was worse than this for about a month.

Cernz
04-24-2014, 11:31 PM
if they get the tournaments up and running (without major bugs) before the weekend, everyone will be happy ;)
and we are in the same or even better shape than in the end of alpha this week, so everything fine with me so far.

sukebe
04-25-2014, 12:03 AM
I have played more MMOs on launch day than I can even remember clearly. Each one was terrible and essentially a waste of my time for at least 2-3 days after launch. After each one I would tell myself that I would never play at launch again, but I was always to excited to wait :-)

I if got upset at a company every time a launch (let alone a beta launch) went badly I would likely have had a heart attack from all the high blood pressure I would have.

Don't get me wrong, I am also annoyed that I still can't play in booster drafts to start opening the bulk of my packs. I want to get to work immediately on making my deck for the Pro Player constructed tournament :-) As agitated/bored/impatient as I am, I didn't actually expect to get to play until the weekend. The fact that I can play other players in casual games and open packs means that CZE is already doing a better job that the majority of the MMO release days (as I can actually get into the game and play something, even if it isn't what I most want to play.)

Xecuter
04-25-2014, 12:12 AM
If only it was only the servers...

I can't help but feel like there's very deep issues with the code base.
There's 2 main things that makes me say this:

First, the interface feels really old, messy and generally unintuitive. It's also generally unresponsive.

Second, the graphics engine is subpar and yet, it lags. Opening packs shouldn't cause a massive fps drop because there's 15 cards flipping over.

I understand this is not a final product. But it is in closed beta, which, technically, means a feature complete product ready to be tested and refined.
Unless they've absolutely overlooked optimization and UX until now (which would be bad practice) I don't see how this can move forward without a major overhaul of the rendering engine and the UI.

Please, do not think I'm mindlessly bashing Hex. It has so much potential and the mechanics are there to prove it, but the presentation is scaring the hell out of me.
I sincerely hope it's not as bad as I think.

EDIT: By bad, I mean spaghetti code that ends up unmaintainable.

Niedar
04-25-2014, 12:20 AM
This is incorrect. The wipe in Hearthstone happened in the middle of closed beta (it was just before I got my invite, and I was in closed beta for a month or two). Also, fake money wasn't returned, rather you got gold equivalent to your real money pack / arena purchases (so if you spent $50 to get 40 packs, you got 4000 gold, but if you spent 10K gold on 100 packs you got nothing) The reason that the monetisation is here is the same reason it was in Hearthstone - it needs to be tested, it is a fundamental part of the game. If you don't like testing it, no one will fault you if you avoid it. Incidentally, Hearthstones reset was due to the game shifting to their production server, which necessitated a wipe.

Beta in this case, does mean beta. There are still features to go, things to be implemented before release. They've been upfront about that, and upfront about what will happen to people impacted by a bug in Beta when they are undertaking a paid activity.

Lets get one thing clear here, Hearthstone beta from the start was what would be considered a release quality product for most companies. I don't think you really understood what I mean about refunding your fake money. I meant that you are refunded the amount of dollars you spent not with actual dollars but with fake dollars only to be used in the game after the reset. I don't really see anything wrong with that.

I don't really care about the monetization as long as it is in the form of a preorder. My original post in here said you can not use beta as a defense when you are collecting revenue the same as if it were a launched product. The first half of the Hearthstone beta did not collect revenue the same as if it had launched. In the first half you spend money, earn cards, play in the arena, and then everything is reset and you get to actually spend your money for real this time on the actual release product. Hearthstone never needed beta as an excuse but the second it transitioned to a point where people were spending money and playing the game with no more resets it lost the ability to use it as an excuse as well.

It keeps on being mentioned that people can ignore the beta but what you really mean is they can just ignore the game because the beta and the actual released game are not separate from each other. The game is just in an unfinished state like all modern online games are in an unfinished state with never ending updates until it dies. So no, using beta as an excuse is not valid for anything that might go wrong as CZE obviously thought the game was in a state ready to launch.

Gwaer
04-25-2014, 12:43 AM
It's closed beta. You can't even get in anymore. It's not the same as release in any way. I'd hope you'd get better at your awful posting habits niedar, not worse.

xecuter has the most constructive criticism so far. I'm a bit worried about the base code it is all written on as well. Ever since finding out about the GPG thing. =\ they've come a long way since alpha started. If they can make as much progress during beta it will hopefully be do enough for the engineers to go back and redo some of the backend as necessary.

Kroan
04-25-2014, 01:23 AM
I dont wanna sound like a hater here, but if you have a slight memmory leak in your code (which can happen anywhere in your code), this will happen. In all honesty, that shouldn't happen if you test your code in a well-structured manner. There are tools for that.

mach
04-25-2014, 01:24 AM
They screwed up, plain and simple. We shouldn't be making excuses for them.

Think back to how things worked in Alpha. They added a new feature. It had lots of bugs, which were gradually worked out. Once it was in a pretty good place, the next new feature was added and the process repeated. That's the proper way to do things.

Their mistake this time is doing multiple things at once. New hardware. Real collections. Kickstarter rewards. Monetization. They add these things all at once and declare that there won't be any wipes. Unsurprisingly, things go horribly wrong immediately.

How should they have done things? Just like they did in Alpha. Do the hardware switch first. When things are stable, wipe and start testing real collections (everyone get lots of free plat). That's working? Great, wipe again and issue kickstarter rewards. Problems resolved? Good, start the monetization. But do it like Hearthstone did. You get what you buy now, and again after the final wipe.

When, and only when, all of that is working, you do the Final Wipe, issue KS rewards for real, give people plat equal to their purchases from the testing phase, and start playing for keeps.

Kroan
04-25-2014, 01:42 AM
I really hated the way Hearthstone did it tbh. I rather have it like this, have a bit of problems with playing the first few days, but able to build my collection right away. (Also Hearthstone was unstable the first week or two in beta as well iirc)

YourOpponent
04-25-2014, 01:59 AM
I am disappointed with how easily the new servers were stressed...now if it was intentional to let them be stressed that much and letting the player base know that....I would of been perfectly fine with that. However for the game to essentially be unplayable with less than 1000 people on the servers was something everybody I've talked to that's studied Computer Science was surprised with after I told them about the player base from Alpha...and how much stress testing we done that way with the old servers.

Also I'm highly surprised that there was the duplication bug to give Grand King rewards to other players...granted I'm too lazy to search through all of my posts, but I am pretty sure that I made a comment in alpha while we were testing the test codes that we need to test more than a test code like that for such a thing. The reasoning was because with my autism I'm able to see how the connection of the 30 booster packs code could be overlooked more easily than the other codes....but even I was surprised that those codes ended up making Grand King rewards to those that used the codes.

Granted with the technology that you guys have it should be easy (if you decide to) remove the extra rewards from that (even a bonus 155 set one boosters per account that way adds up fast.) Of course as a player I have no idea of the gravity of the situation, but I do trust you guys and hold no grudge. In fact I'm still telling new friends and people I meet (offline) about how awesome this game is, the community, and so forth. So please don't take this as nerd rage or anything because I still love you guys and all the hard work you do.

Malakili
04-25-2014, 02:13 AM
I understand. I won't dismiss you at all. But I think you are looking at this the wrong way - this is the biggest stress test CZE has ever had. On new servers. They need this to fix up an holes left in the code. Us breaking it down today, means a brighter future for all Hex players.

It might be a bitter, sad day right now, but in a few months we will remember this week fondly.

I would say the one thing that is a legitimate concern was giving us the KS rewards and charging for things. That's a risky move when you're still "fixing up holes left in the code."

It looks like we made it through without any massive disaster, but still. I guess maybe they needed to put that carrot out there so that people will come back in big enough numbers to do a proper stress test, but I have to admit the game doesn't feel *quite* ready to be taking people's money yet.

FlyingMeatchip
04-25-2014, 02:16 AM
The same thing happened when everyone rushed the Alpha Servers for the 1st week. Look at the progress since then, bugs squashed, tournaments that went from not working to very little problems at all, awesome community events. Just as it was said at the beginning of Alpha, in a week you'll forget about the issues.

Arveene
04-25-2014, 03:35 AM
The same thing happened when everyone rushed the Alpha Servers for the 1st week. Look at the progress since then, bugs squashed, tournaments that went from not working to very little problems at all, awesome community events. Just as it was said at the beginning of Alpha, in a week you'll forget about the issues.

That's the thing. The same problems have occurred before. There shouldn't be too many more people for closed beta compared to the alpha. They should have learned from the alpha and been prepared for this.

hex_colin
04-25-2014, 03:42 AM
That's the thing. The same problems have occurred before. There shouldn't be too many more people for closed beta compared to the alpha. They should have learned from the alpha and been prepared for this.

I guarantee you significantly more people showed up for the start of Beta than did the start of Alpha. Also, huge difference in the sorts of activities. With all of the code redemptions, pack purchases and opening, etc., the level of activity will have taken a significant step up from anything they'd seen before. But, that's why we're in Beta - to see where the stress points are and fix them.

joseph5185
04-25-2014, 03:48 AM
If I may, without starting some mass-raid argument. I * THINK * one of the biggest concerns people are having at the moment is the real money issue.

FWIW, no real money was involved in alpha and the way things are currently, I think people are just a little uneasy about putting money into the system... at this time.

Surely, it will be fixed, sooner or later, but I think ossuary said it best in a patch note. We are kinda on delicate grounds at the moment.

Hopefully... people will forget, but all any of us can do right is wait and see.

Xenavire
04-25-2014, 03:59 AM
I have dumped money in with no problems. I can see the reasons to doubt, but things on that side of the spectrum are safe for now. Surprisingly solid and easy to use too.

AstaSyneri
04-25-2014, 04:07 AM
Colin, you hit the forums early... ;-)

Personally I had been critical of CZE in the past few weeks, but I am mollified now. There are huge things to come, and they might actually come sooner than I anticipated.

Yesterday my guild had a field day - we had so many people come out of the woodwork and just have fun together. And we didn't do anything but chat and open boosters. If you look at where the game has come from, you can be really satisfied.

I really think we generated a lot of load yesterday, I am absolutely not worried (in fact I expected major downtime) and I look forward to every next feature that gets implemented!

issowi
04-25-2014, 04:17 AM
To everyone saying it is still beta it is not final play when when it is released if you don't want to test. Then why are my timed rewards getting expiration dates? If they are starting the 1 year worth of free weekly tournaments now, then I need to start playing now. If someone can link me to a source saying these tickets aren't part of your final tickets then that is a different story but I haven't seen that.

Xenavire
04-25-2014, 04:31 AM
To everyone saying it is still beta it is not final play when when it is released if you don't want to test. Then why are my timed rewards getting expiration dates? If they are starting the 1 year worth of free weekly tournaments now, then I need to start playing now. If someone can link me to a source saying these tickets aren't part of your final tickets then that is a different story but I haven't seen that.

If you activated your code, then yes, it counts. But it sounds like people don't have to activate their codes just yet, and those drafts will start from the time they activate.

And if you have the pro drafts for life - they are infinite, and losing a few will do you no harm.


Lastly - if players are unable to redeem their timed tickets due to server faults, CZE will reimburse them. Or so we have been told.

AstaSyneri
04-25-2014, 05:36 AM
Lastly - if players are unable to redeem their timed tickets due to server faults, CZE will reimburse them. Or so we have been told.

I am certain they will, and then some.

Mahes
04-25-2014, 05:40 AM
I find it interesting that players forget that initially we were not even going to be playing for 5 days. The idea was to transfer the system over and shut everything down for 5 days while this process took place. They chose instead to go ahead and open the system so they could get valuable information during the transition that would allow them to better handle future crowds.

This being said, I am going to at least give them 5 days to smooth out the servers before I begin to wonder.

Nobody was forced to activate their code or pay for any more cards. A player can choose to wait until things smooth out before spending a single penny. I am choosing to wait until things iron themselves out before I spend anymore money. As a consumer that is my right and I am pretty sure CZE would understand.

The concerns around the base code might very well be a valid concern. I am not an expert in code and thus cannot judge or hypothesize as to the condition of it. I can say that as an avid gamer, it does strike me as odd that many "hic-ups" still exist in the system. In the end though, only time will tell.

Dralon
04-25-2014, 05:46 AM
If you have followed this game AT ALL, you will know that Cory and the team at every opportunity has leaned towards the players side when there have been problems. If perhaps the weekly free drafts for a year that some people are so worried about are not implemented until 1 month from now, I would be shocked if they didn't extend the year of free drafts from the time they are functional until 1 year from then.

As others have said, if you don't want to play through the bugs, simply wait a bit. This Closed beta is less than 48 hrs live.

DuroNL
04-25-2014, 05:52 AM
Well, lets see, out of all MMO's i know and have played, it seems only ESO did not experience bad bad Server lag on launch, they on the other hand experience some nasty bugs. and mind you i talk off MMO's that went into stable version, comercial version launch.

Now this is a closed beta, and what do you think closed betas for MMO games are for? thats right, stress testing.

i agree it is annoying, it sucks, it saddens people, but hey, its still beta...

cheer up, it will get better real quick... ^^

Malakili
04-25-2014, 06:02 AM
Also, although I am of the opinion that the game was probably not quite ready for this, in the end it seems like it will have been good enough. A month from now we won't care.

Xenavire
04-25-2014, 06:10 AM
Well, lets see, out of all MMO's i know and have played, it seems only ESO did not experience bad bad Server lag on launch, they on the other hand experience some nasty bugs. and mind you i talk off MMO's that went into stable version, comercial version launch.

Now this is a closed beta, and what do you think closed betas for MMO games are for? thats right, stress testing.

i agree it is annoying, it sucks, it saddens people, but hey, its still beta...

cheer up, it will get better real quick... ^^

I was in the ESO beta weekends. It was mostly unplayable a lot of the time, and there were critical quest progression bugs that effectively stopped you playing.

I still think Hex is doing better already.

Hieronymous
04-25-2014, 06:19 AM
Also, although I am of the opinion that the game was probably not quite ready for this, in the end it seems like it will have been good enough. A month from now we won't care.

That's my hope. So far at least they've avoided catastrophic errors, like vanishing cards etc. The biggest issue right now is tournament downtime, since people's one-year free tourney rewards are ticking away.

issowi
04-25-2014, 07:18 AM
Don't get me wrong I'm excited for this game and the potential it has. Sure CZE will take care of the customers but why put yourself in that position? Someone was right I had a choice about entering in my codes but all the literature around it made it sound like I should do it sooner than later.

To those saying every MMO has the same issues, well I was hoping CZE was above that. If everyone slapped their customers in the face should you? Why should I not demand excellence from a company I invested my money in?

Jinxies
04-25-2014, 07:27 AM
Because a bug free beta in not a realistic expectation. Beta is there to iron out the bugs and other wonky stuff before release.

Raith
04-25-2014, 07:31 AM
It's certainly a rocky start and everyone would prefer a smoother transition. However, once they work out the kinks it will all be ok.


catastrophic errors

I lost a sizable chunk of the platinum I purchased Wednesday night which feels pretty catastrophic to me. ;) I have a support ticket in and assume it will get fixed. I'm not too worried yet. The responses to problems now will be strong indicators of how smooth the game will be later.

Xenavire
04-25-2014, 07:32 AM
It isn't slapping the customers, it was slapping themselves. Anything they screw up on, they will make right by themselves. If that means losing money, thats on them.

A little game time is insignificant to us compared to what it means for them. And they will have things working like a well oiled machine, soon enough.

I understand the frustration from everyone here. Been in that position often enough. But CZE have put the responsibility upon themselves - why complain when you are only slightly inconvenienced? You will lose nothing.

I may sound like a fanboy, but I have been constantly impressed by CZE. I feel that they deserve the respect I regard them with.

But by all means, continue the thread, I am not here to stop people, just spreading good will (well, trying. :))

Thrawn
04-25-2014, 07:44 AM
It isn't slapping the customers, it was slapping themselves. Anything they screw up on, they will make right by themselves. If that means losing money, thats on them.

Well eventually that's also on us if it makes the game go under. :p

I can live with the closed beta launch being a bit of a disaster, but if open beta launch is as rough it will be really bad for the game.

Xenavire
04-25-2014, 07:48 AM
Well eventually that's also on us if it makes the game go under. :p

I can live with the closed beta launch being a bit of a disaster, but if open beta launch is as rough it will be really bad for the game.

Oh, I agree. Thats why I want things to crash and burn as much as possible between now and open beta, so that everything gets fixed the right way.

nicosharp
04-25-2014, 08:03 AM
I am disappointed too..... I only have a primal rate of 0.4%!!!!!!!!!! WHY!!!!


KHAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!!

AstaSyneri
04-25-2014, 08:05 AM
It just gets even more important to document any (perceived) bug you encounter and report it in a precise manner. That way things can be fixed. I used to be lax about that in Alpha, but now that my own cards are at stake, I want all bugs gone.

I know what it's like to just design a card game - what CZE is doing is inhuman in complexity. They are really doing well so far.

issowi
04-25-2014, 08:15 AM
Because a bug free beta in not a realistic expectation. Beta is there to iron out the bugs and other wonky stuff before release.

I never said it should be bug free. I'm just saying using other companies as an excuse to give CZE doesn't sit well with me. I don't care if wow had bad servers I care that Hex has good servers. I care that my investment isn't being delivered in a timely manner. I invested in an idea and I expect excellence. Is that a foreign idea to expect your investment to reap benefits? Is it beta yes will there be errors yes. Fundamental issues with cards and servers the 2 main things a dTCG MMO needs shouldn't be occurring this late in the game. IMO

Gwaer
04-25-2014, 08:16 AM
Well eventually that's also on us if it makes the game go under. :p

I can live with the closed beta launch being a bit of a disaster, but if open beta launch is as rough it will be really bad for the game.


Wtf are you talking about. Open betas transition should also be a problem, and that's okay, because it's open beta. He'll every major game ever launched has had problems AT RELEASE. Why would it be bad for the game for the stage before that to have issues? It's threads like this that make me realize how much I still wish most of us weren't even allowed in the game. It's a mistake to let people with no game testing experience whatsoever see what this process looks like. You have no idea how good we've had it during this process. I've seen triple A titles in much worse places than this at the same point, but I'm a game tester. I actually know what this crap looks like.


I never said it should be bug free. I'm just saying using other companies as an excuse to give CZE doesn't sit well with me. I don't care if wow had bad servers I care that Hex has good servers. I care that my investment isn't being delivered in a timely manner. I invested in an idea and I expect excellence. Is that a foreign idea to expect your investment to reap benefits? Is it beta yes will there be errors yes. Fundamental issues with cards and servers the 2 main things a dTCG MMO needs shouldn't be occurring this late in the game. IMO

And I'm just saying you have no idea what you're talking about. It's not that the wow servers are bad, or even that the hex server is currently bad, it's that problems will arise with load that you can't test for without throwing your feet in the fire. Is going to happen in any game with concurrent online players. It's so incredibly annoying to see people who have no idea what the process is like for developing obviously any software whatsoever make these ridiculous assertions.

Malakili
04-25-2014, 08:19 AM
Wtf are you talking about.

He's talking about the fact that in a free to play game that is taking your money and letting everyone into the game you can call it "Open Beta" all you want, but that is actually the launch.

Hell, I know people who feel as though the game has already launched, insofar as they are willing to take our money. Not just like an advanced/pre-order type thing, but a now-unlimited amount via packs and tournaments. Sure, you can debate it, but if they are willing to do that, there is a certain minimum amount of functionality that needs to be there.

I think that minimum amount of functionality has been met, but not by a lot.

Thrawn
04-25-2014, 08:23 AM
Wtf are you talking about. Open betas transition should also be a problem, and that's okay, because it's open beta. He'll every major game ever launched has had problems AT RELEASE. Why would it be bad for the game for the stage before that to have issues? It's threads like this that make me realize how much I still wish most of us weren't even allowed in the game. It's a mistake to let people with no game testing experience whatsoever see what this process looks like. You have no idea how good we've had it during this process. I've seen triple A titles in much worse places than this at the same point, but I'm a game tester. I actually know what this crap looks like.

Beta access is a dime a dozen for people now, I would bet every poster in this thread has played in half a dozen betas if not more. Betas have become the new live for most games and that's the issue, especially if it's a Beta accepting real payments. If Hex a few months into open beta is in it's current state of having frequent game freezes, bugs, etc. the game will never take off.

You can use examples of "I'm a professional game tester, you're just wrong" all you want, but when average Joe gamer sees a new game with open beta to try, tries it, and it's unplayable, he likely doesn't come back to that game when it launches. Take that times every person waiting to try Hex in open beta or that finds the game during open beta and has a bad experience and it will have a terrible effect on the growth of the game.

Gwaer
04-25-2014, 08:25 AM
And? MMO's even at launch which have gone through alphas and multiple beta periods have problems at the beginning of every phase. Get used to it, it's not a problem that is likely to go away. So it's ridiculous to expect a smooth transition to open beta, even if you incorrectly consider it launch. Because a smooth actual release will not happen either.


^ that's exactly why none of the average joe game players should have been involved in this game at any point yet. This is not a might as well be release beta. It is an actual beta.

Thrawn
04-25-2014, 08:30 AM
And?

If you don't even comprehend why the first impression of a game is insanely important or why building a large, strong community will be important to a TCG I'm not even sure what else to say to you.

Rendakor
04-25-2014, 08:30 AM
If people have a probem with the game being monetized in it's current state, don't spend any money. There isn't a real reason to do so anyway since tournaments aren't even working. If all you're concerned with is cracking packs to build a collection, go for it, but don't blame CZE for allowing people to spend money.

Thrawn
04-25-2014, 08:32 AM
If people have a probem with the game being monetized in it's current state, don't spend any money. There isn't a real reason to do so anyway since tournaments aren't even working. If all you're concerned with is cracking packs to build a collection, go for it, but don't blame CZE for allowing people to spend money.

You're missing the point completely. The discussion was that if the game is similar to it's current state when OPEN beta launches for everyone it will be very bad for the growth of the game. It's entirely possible everything will be much smoother and just great by then, hopefully.

Gwaer
04-25-2014, 08:32 AM
If you don't even comprehend why the first impression of a game is insanely important or why building a large, strong community will be important to a TCG I'm not even sure what else to say to you.

I do comprehend that. Which is why I have said thrice now. None of the people inexperienced with how game development goes should have been involved at all this point. However CZE made a choice to make everyone involved. This is what game development looks like. Every game, every time.


You're missing the point completely. The discussion was that if the game is similar to it's current state when OPEN beta launches for everyone it will be very bad for the growth of the game. It's entirely possible everything will be much smoother and just great by then, hopefully.

No it won't. If the game is good and shapes up after full release the few people that refuse to return are meaningless. It sucks to disappoint them. But those people just shouldn't play until after live has been around for a while.

Turtlewing
04-25-2014, 08:38 AM
Beta access is a dime a dozen for people now, I would bet every poster in this thread has played in half a dozen betas if not more. Betas have become the new live for most games and that's the issue, especially if it's a Beta accepting real payments. If Hex a few months into open beta is in it's current state of being almost unplayable the game will never take off.

You can use examples of "I'm a professional game tester, you're just wrong" all you want, but when average Joe gamer sees a new game with open beta to try, tries it, and it's unplayable, he likely doesn't come back to that game when it launches. Take that times every person waiting to try Hex in open beta or that finds the game during open beta and has a bad experience and it will have a terrible effect on the growth of the game.

While it's reasonable to argue that Hex is in a soft launch now, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the new servers to maintain full uptime during the first week.

Right now, they're probably doing a bunch of load testing and profiling that will form the basis of their plan for server deployment for open beta and official launch.

The game itself isn't overly buggy (call me when the sever crashes and data corruption forces a wipe/rollback, then we can talk about the game not being ready for beta because of bugs). It's just that right now demand exceeds the hardware's capacity. That can be fixed by upgrading hardware, but they won't know how much to upgrade until they've collected some data about how badly/where we're overloading the capacity now.

Rendakor
04-25-2014, 08:42 AM
You're missing the point completely. The discussion was that if the game is similar to it's current state when OPEN beta launches for everyone it will be very bad for the growth of the game. It's entirely possible everything will be much smoother and just great by then, hopefully.

Thats not a very useful or interesting discussion to have.
A: The game is buggy now. If it's still buggy later, that would be bad.
B: Yea, but hopefully it won't be.
A: But it might be!

Mahes
04-25-2014, 08:43 AM
A bit of good news.

Hexrex just answered a question I was wondering about in game.

Will the Draft dead lines be extended due to the Tournament system not functioning properly?

They are reviewing the idea and are discussing options currently in house.


So that question got answered and at least we know that they are aware of some player's issue with the expiration dates of tournament draft tickets.

Thrawn
04-25-2014, 08:47 AM
Thats not a very useful or interesting discussion to have.
A: The game is buggy now. If it's still buggy later, that would be bad.
B: Yea, but hopefully it won't be.
A: But it might be!

I agree completely, my initial post was just an offhanded comment and this discussion is a waste of time. It wasn't meant to turn into a discussion until someone swooped in and started sublety attacking people over it. :P

Mindless
04-25-2014, 08:49 AM
I'm mainly sad because of 2 things:

1. Didn't get any extra primal packs with my king level :(
2. There doesn't seem to even be PVE considered so far. Only a globe and some empty hero item slots indicate there is even PVE at all. I wanted the PVE but it just keeps slipping away from me :/ I want my lotus garden!!!

Also, the information during alpha in tournaments was/is awful. I never even managed to play one tournament (of like 6) to the end because sometimes things just got stuck? and waiting didn't help... The guilds are where? Trading/AH? etc etc. I've also realized that this game will be very expensive when set 1 is obsolete :/ (not a magic player).

Overall: I'm not to happy about CZE handling of this game since kickstarter but there is nothing that time won't fix ;) After all they are hard workers. Still, waiting until christmas or even longer for PVE and or rest of kickstarter rewards makes me have a sad face.

Jinxies
04-25-2014, 08:59 AM
None of those things are important at the moment, they'll be added once the basic foundation is solid. It was always going to be like that. I had a total of 2 tournaments freeze during alpha, both the first week they were added and the rest have gone off without a hitch. Your disappointment is unjustified unless this is the first game you've ever alpha/beta teated, you can just throw everythin in at once, it has to be built from the ground up so it doesn't just come crashing down when the weight of the entire playerbase is introduced.

AstaSyneri
04-25-2014, 09:00 AM
Maybe reading Cory Jones' blog (http://coryhudsonjones.tumblr.com/post/83645967847/hex-beta-is-almost-here) will soothe your fears! It certainly helped me. :D

Stabilize the servers and tournaments, bring in The Arena and then the Guilds and we have a nice sandbox to play in already. After that it can only get better (as in awesome).

Rendakor
04-25-2014, 09:03 AM
Also, the information during alpha in tournaments was/is awful. I never even managed to play one tournament (of like 6) to the end because sometimes things just got stuck? and waiting didn't help... The guilds are where? Trading/AH? etc etc. I've also realized that this game will be very expensive when set 1 is obsolete :/ (not a magic player).
AH, Trading and Guilds are the next 3 major features to be implemented; based on their implementation time in alpha I'd say they'll all be in within 2 months. At the end of alpha, tournaments were running very well so once they get the server kinks worked out in beta they won't be a problem. While Hex won't be cheap to play, it's half as expensive as M:tG; they couldn't realistically price things much lower and still make money.

TJTaylor
04-25-2014, 09:05 AM
Gwaer isn't attacking people. He is simply stating that when you let people into the sausage factory who aren't sausage factory workers there is generally vomiting involved when they see the sausage being made. It doesn't make the process wrong or bad. It is what it is. Those people just had no idea until now.

Hieronymous
04-25-2014, 09:19 AM
It's certainly a rocky start and everyone would prefer a smoother transition. However, once they work out the kinks it will all be ok.



I lost a sizable chunk of the platinum I purchased Wednesday night which feels pretty catastrophic to me. ;) I have a support ticket in and assume it will get fixed. I'm not too worried yet. The responses to problems now will be strong indicators of how smooth the game will be later.


OK that's the first real substantive error I've heard of. Let's hope they get it worked out for you.

Vorpal
04-25-2014, 09:22 AM
The no more wipes is a pretty huge difference and the hearthstone beta would make the Hex beta look more like a pre-alpha. Sure blizzard was collecting money during beta but at the end of beta everything was reset giving you back your fake money to spend again. This means that if a person didn't want to deal with a buggy version of the game they are not missing out

Of course they are. They are missing out on tons and tons and TONS of gold! People who had played during the buggy beta after the wipe had their gold back enough to buy tons and tons of packs after the wipe. People who were just starting did not, and were at a marked disadvantage compared to the people who had played in the buggy beta.

Also, we are *still* dealing with bugs in Hearthstone. The game still freezes, and you still get the minion positioning bug which is enough to make you lose games all by itself.

Hearthstone had a monetized beta with bugs. Hex has a monetized beta with bugs. What's the problem? If you don't want to pay money for a product that still has bugs then you don't have to.

If you think closed beta launch is identical to a real launch, then you should consider that every released MMO has had an atrocious (literally unplayable) first few days and very troubled first few weeks. Rollbacks and losing your progress have been very common.

Hearthstone is not an MMO and thus is a much simpler game. Even so it had bugs.

So basically, your post is completely wrong, whether we grant you your initial premises or not.

Niedar
04-25-2014, 09:29 AM
Nope, none of the gold you earned by playing was given back to you. That was completely wipe, only if you had spent real money did you get that much worth in gold to spend after the wipe.

Vorpal
04-25-2014, 09:30 AM
That's the thing. The same problems have occurred before. There shouldn't be too many more people for closed beta compared to the alpha. They should have learned from the alpha and been prepared for this.

Wasn't the alpha a rolling start with different people let in over a span of weeks? I remember all the bitter complaining from people who hadn't yet gotten in after days and days and days.

So then you take all those people spread out over weeks and pack them into one day for the beta release.

I would expect the amount of people trying to play at once to be orders of magnitude larger.

TJTaylor
04-25-2014, 09:34 AM
Not to mention that many people did not even bother with alpha. Now that they have their KS codes, everyone is coming out of the woodwork.


Wasn't the alpha a rolling start with different people let in over a span of weeks? I remember all the bitter complaining from people who hadn't yet gotten in after days and days and days.

So then you take all those people spread out over weeks and pack them into one day for the beta release.

I would expect the amount of people trying to play at once to be orders of magnitude larger.

Vorpal
04-25-2014, 09:43 AM
He's talking about the fact that in a free to play game that is taking your money and letting everyone into the game you can call it "Open Beta" all you want, but that is actually the launch.

What a ludicrous idea he is talking about then.

By his metric, the instant CZE took our money from kickstarter and released an alpha it was the launch. They took our money. They put out a game. Why isn't it perfect!!!!???

Monetized betas are a thing. Pre orders/kick starter are a thing. The idea that the first time a penny changes hands marks the official launch is objectively and totally false.

In every F2P game I've beta tested you could pay money during the beta, and it was not counted the official launch. It's NECESSARY to have people spending money on that stuff during beta so you can make sure it all works. You couldn't possibly leave it out until launch. That would be madness.


You can use examples of "I'm a professional game tester, you're just wrong" all you want, but when average Joe gamer sees a new game with open beta to try, tries it, and it's unplayable, he likely doesn't come back to that game when it launches.

Hearthstone had lots of problems early in beta and is now insanely popular. That said, this is still a closed beta so no average joes should even be in it. you're right about the principle of first impressions being important, which is why typically games have a closed beta and then an open beta later, once it's in a more polished state that won't frighten away the average players.

I cannot fathom people upset that Hex accepts payments in beta. Obviously this is an important part of the game that needs to be tested. Hearthstone did it too. If you are amazed and surprised at monetized beta you need to join the rest of us in the present and stop living in the 90's.

The bottom line is a lot of people are demanding a bug free beta. That simply isn't possible.

issowi
04-25-2014, 09:54 AM
Not to mention that many people did not even bother with alpha. Now that they have their KS codes, everyone is coming out of the woodwork.

So it is hard to estimate the number of people potentially logging in? Oh wait you sent out exactly the number of emails of people who can log in right? So shouldn't be hard to estimate. Now you say well you don't know who is going to actually log in, and I say does it matter you should be building a server that can handle any load (not that this load is that huge 17,765 backers + slacker backers).


No it won't. If the game is good and shapes up after full release the few people that refuse to return are meaningless. It sucks to disappoint them. But those people just shouldn't play until after live has been around for a while.

Gwar, I invested in a game for its longevity and I fully expect the company to put out a good product (again I am not saying beta should be bug free) but they haven't spurred confidence at this point. I have been in alpha's and beta's a plenty and they are doing a good job, my concern lies in the speed and promises made. Again June 2013kickstarter was funded with the estimated day of Sept 2013. We just received our "rewards" for our investments but many of those rewards can't be used and/or the functionality doesn't exist yet.

You also say don't play until after live has been around for a while.. really? Shouldn't the game go live perfectly? Why does everyone assume it is ok to go live with bugs? I don't get this logic at all, if the game isn't ready it isn't ready. Keep using the excuse well x, y, z company/game did it so obviously it will be ok if CZE does the same thing -- I vehemently disagree with this sentiment and it makes me wonder why our society is so complacent with below average performance...

Marsden
04-25-2014, 10:01 AM
Why does everyone assume it is ok to go live with bugs?

It is literally impossible to do that in any kind of sensible development timeframe unless you want to start measuring things in decades. Especially if you're also expecting them to find the sort of bugs that only show up when 3000 people try to open a pack at the same time. You simply cannot test for that sort of scale without external assistance, so perhaps some sort of Alpha and Closed Beta process would help....

TJTaylor
04-25-2014, 10:01 AM
CZE can see exactly how many people are logging in now and if they were to share that info with us, I guarantee you it would be much higher than alpha ever was.

Also you can't build a server that can handle load without testing said server and stressing it out until it fails, then work out the kinks accordingly. That is what this process is for. And this is actually the whole issue that Gwaer and others were talking about. You have people who don't understand this process failing around like the sky is falling because they don't know any better or their expectations are simply unreasonable. What is happening right now is exactly what should be happening right now.



So it is hard to estimate the number of people potentially logging in? Oh wait you sent out exactly the number of emails of people who can log in right? So shouldn't be hard to estimate. Now you say well you don't know who is going to actually log in, and I say does it matter you should be building a server that can handle any load (not that this load is that huge 17,765 backers + slacker backers).



Gwar, I invested in a game for its longevity and I fully expect the company to put out a good product (again I am not saying beta should be bug free) but they haven't spurred confidence at this point. I have been in alpha's and beta's a plenty and they are doing a good job, my concern lies in the speed and promises made. Again June 2013kickstarter was funded with the estimated day of Sept 2013. We just received our "rewards" for our investments but many of those rewards can't be used and/or the functionality doesn't exist yet.

You also say don't play until after live has been around for a while.. really? Shouldn't the game go live perfectly? Why does everyone assume it is ok to go live with bugs? I don't get this logic at all, if the game isn't ready it isn't ready. Keep using the excuse well x, y, z company/game did it so obviously it will be ok if CZE does the same thing -- I vehemently disagree with this sentiment and it makes me wonder why our society is so complacent with below average performance...

Vorpal
04-25-2014, 10:07 AM
So it is hard to estimate the number of people potentially logging in? Oh wait you sent out exactly the number of emails of people who can log in right? So shouldn't be hard to estimate. Now you say well you don't know who is going to actually log in, and I say does it matter you should be building a server that can handle any load (not that this load is that huge 17,765 backers + slacker backers).

First of all, just the bolded part is just silly.

Maybe they built a server that can handle 30,000 people. except there were some bugs (as there will be, it's beta!)

If building a server that handled any load without bugs was so easy, why does EVERY single MMO fail horribly on launch day?

The arguement was made that there shouldn't have been any bugs because they already tested the servers in alpha! We pointed out the beta load is almost assuredly much higher than the alpha load. If you disagree, I am willing to wage packs on this in a bet. I am quite sure CZE can tell us the peak server load during alpha and the peak load as beta launched.



You also say don't play until after live has been around for a while.. really? Shouldn't the game go live perfectly? Why does everyone assume it is ok to go live with bugs? I don't get this logic at all, if the game isn't ready it isn't ready. Keep using the excuse well x, y, z company/game did it so obviously it will be ok if CZE does the same thing -- I vehemently disagree with this sentiment and it makes me wonder why our society is so complacent with below average performance...

Good lord. If everyone does it, it's not below average, by definition!

It's not that it's 'ok' to launch with bugs, but rather that it is almost inevitable you will find bugs in launch that you couldn't find before launch. It has happened to every single MMO.

Name one MMO that launched perfectly, with no stability issues, and no bugs.

If you can't, why are you ragging on Hex? The problem isn't Hex, the problem is your completely unrealistic expectations.

I hope this whole experience is useful in teaching some novices how the sausage is made, if nothing else :)

Malakili
04-25-2014, 10:11 AM
What a ludicrous idea he is talking about then.

By his metric, the instant CZE took our money from kickstarter and released an alpha it was the launch. They took our money. They put out a game. Why isn't it perfect!!!!???

Monetized betas are a thing. Pre orders/kick starter are a thing. The idea that the first time a penny changes hands marks the official launch is objectively and totally false.



Monetized betas are a thing because companies learned that people are happy to spend lots of money on things that for years they didn't think there worthy of charging for. Pre-Orders are paying for a future, finished product. Kickstarters are actually just a gift and they have no obligation to deliver anything (legally).



In every F2P game I've beta tested you could pay money during the beta, and it was not counted the official launch. It's NECESSARY to have people spending money on that stuff during beta so you can make sure it all works. You couldn't possibly leave it out until launch. That would be madness.


If you're spending money, and there is no wipe/reimbursement coming, then the game has de-facto launched for you, is the point.

You're making a technical argument that is missing the point.

Vorpal
04-25-2014, 10:15 AM
You're making a technical argument that is missing the point.

No. I'm pointing out how silly the people are trying to claim the launch of CLOSED beta is the same thing as open beta, which is the same thing as the REAL launch, so therefore, the game should be perfect and have no bugs.

Every step of that argument is flawed. Every single step!

Imagine this was the big confetti champagne official launch just now.

The problems it experienced would be absolutely unremarkable and no worse than any MMO launch I've been through and way better than many others. The people whining "This game launched, why does it have bugs" would still be just as uninformed and ignorant as the are today.

They'd be even more wrong if this was open beta that just launched.

And since it was really closed beta, they are spectacularly wrong. This really just comes down to a spectacular level of entitlement: "I gave CZE money, why isn't it perfect!!???"

There is nothing unusual or bad about monetized betas for F2P MMOs. There is nothing unusual or bad about betas having bugs.

issowi
04-25-2014, 10:21 AM
Granted any load is extreme, should have said "reasonable load based on invitations sent out". Fair enough.

If the expectations is to have bugs then why not just launch once the base features are in place and work the bugs out in the future and tell everyone it is live but don't play for a few months while we iron out the kinks? Doesn't sound like standard marketing to me.

A perfect release is not likely I get it and beta is for cleaning as much up as possible which I'm ok with as well. I am even ok with the testing the monetary aspect, though I would prefer that happen after the servers were stable. The reason I'm "ragging" on Hex, as you call it, is because I invested money up front. Timelines are delayed (everyone keeps dodging this point) and progress is slow -- that makes me nervous with the competition that is coming up all over. I want the game to do well, I want the game to have a strong community, I feel like these aspects are in jeopardy when they are having a hard time completing expectations that were set from almost a year ago.

Vorpal
04-25-2014, 10:28 AM
Granted any load is extreme, should have said "reasonable load based on invitations sent out". Fair enough.

If the expectations is to have bugs then why not just launch once the base features are in place and work the bugs out in the future and tell everyone it is live but don't play for a few months while we iron out the kinks? Doesn't sound like standard marketing to me.

The expectation is to have bugs.
People do launch once the base features are in place and sufficiently polished.
Obviously they don't tell people not to play, because then they couldn't discover the remaining bugs.

It's not that they are launching with bugs they know about and just haven't bothered to fix - the launch process itself revels new bugs that could not possibly have been discovered before.


The reason I'm "ragging" on Hex, as you call it, is because I invested money up front. Timelines are delayed (everyone keeps dodging this point) and progress is slow -- that makes me nervous with the competition that is coming up all over. I want the game to do well, I want the game to have a strong community, I feel like these aspects are in jeopardy when they are having a hard time completing expectations that were set from almost a year ago.

Hex is clearly proceeding slower than they initially intended, and slower than I also hoped. However, this is not unusual in software development. I think you'll be much happier if you just realize the initial timeline was complete nonsense and pretend it never existed.

So, while I can understand feeling sad every time you find another bug that means the game is going to be delayed another week or two, I don't think it's a reasonable response to criticize Hex for having those bugs. Chivvying along CZE with cries of "Work faster! Have fewer bugs!" is not exactly realistic or helpful :D

I see nothing about the beta release to indicate that Hex is having unusual problems, while at the same time agreeing that CZE's inexperience with MMO's has delayed Hex quite a bit from their initial timeline.

KnowingCrow
04-25-2014, 10:32 AM
No release of any MMO or MMO-like game that I've ever been part of the testing process of has every released without game-breaking bugs. The sole exception are Blizzard games, and even they aren't perfect. Comparing to Hearthstone is very uncharitable and if that is the standard you are prepared to hold, prepare to be disappointed every time.

Did I expect to be able to draft on day one of the closed beta? Nope. I was surprised I was even able to log in, honestly.

What is happening to fix this? Cryptozoic staff are probably working long overtime hours in a desperate struggle to try to get the game working. I'd be shocked in Cory went to sleep thinking that the current state of affairs are acceptable. But I completely expected it to roll out like this, and I'll be waiting patiently for them to get things working so I can start playing this game.

issowi
04-25-2014, 10:32 AM
Vorpal:

Fair enough! I can get behind that logic.

Apologize for the disruption in everyone's forum life...

Gwaer
04-25-2014, 10:35 AM
No one is dodging the point that we're running a year behind schedule. CZE apologized, continuing to bitch about it isn't going to make it release a year ago. There were unforeseen issues that didn't become obvious to them until after the KS was over, and then they allowed everyone to get full refunds until April. They've more than paid their dues for being behind schedule.



Kickstarters are actually just a gift and they have no obligation to deliver anything (legally).


[SNIP]

Here are the legally binding agreements you make when using kickstarter
https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use
"Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."

Mindless
04-25-2014, 10:39 AM
AH, Trading and Guilds are the next 3 major features to be implemented; based on their implementation time in alpha I'd say they'll all be in within 2 months. At the end of alpha, tournaments were running very well so once they get the server kinks worked out in beta they won't be a problem. While Hex won't be cheap to play, it's half as expensive as M:tG; they couldn't realistically price things much lower and still make money.

One of the last tournament I played was some days before beta release. I won the first matchup but then I was paired with another and the match didn't start for like 5 min but no problem I just waited. Then suddenly the matchup status was changed to complete and I had 1 and my opponent 0 wins (but he didn't leave as his name was still there?). Ok I though he left so I waited for the others, which turned into waiting for like 1 h until all matched had been "completed" for a while but nothing more happened and the win/lose was off on some matchups (like mine). So I left. I had no clue as to the real status of either myself (was I disconnected or something?) or that of the others more than I could see some seemingly random matchup results. Is it to much to at least want a confirmation of things while waiting?

Edit: Also I know they are working hard and I don't blame them that much but I believe we can all agree that sometimes feelings overrule logic.

bojanglesz
04-25-2014, 10:46 AM
just for this statement no one should listen to a single word you ever say for the rest of your life. Do research before saying whatever nonsense enters your brain. I'm personally insulted that you think I'm stupid enough to believe something so easily disproven.

Here are the legally binding agreements you make when using kickstarter
https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use
"Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."

That ether.

Rendakor
04-25-2014, 10:46 AM
Your opponent probably left or encountered a bug; his name wouldn't disappear unless he had left between rounds. Matches always list 1-0/Complete when someone leaves, so that's why the number was off. We definitely need more communication during tournaments (time remaining, is player_x still connected, etc.) but they're generally functional. If we could do other things while waiting a lot of these issues would feel less shitty because we wouldn't just be staring at a tournament screen and hoping for the best; that would also make tournament streaming more entertaining for the viewers.

knightofeffect
04-25-2014, 10:57 AM
The point if fact is, since we are seeing so many if the same issues as earlier in alpha, it makes the work and claims about

"intentionally running the servers on basically an average desktop and sacrifice the experience now so that we don't have major issues down the road"

fall flat. Or at least not offer tangible benefit in a way that is even translucent to the customers.

Similarly, iirc, we were supposed to transition to the live hardware before the launch if monetized beta to try and shake some bugs out and not put CZE in the needlessly precarious position of launching on untested hardware. Knowing those two pieces of information, I believe I reasonably hoped for and expected beta to be significantly more smooth than it has been.

Finally, it is hard to be optimistic about future feature launches, especially those with the necessity of being completely big free upon implementation (see: AH). But I can still blindly hope for the best ;).

YourOpponent
04-25-2014, 11:00 AM
Oh, I agree. Thats why I want things to crash and burn as much as possible between now and open beta, so that everything gets fixed the right way.

I'm fine with them crashing and burning as much as possible in closed beta as long as they LEARN from those experiences and don't make the same mistakes. If I seem passionate about what I've posted over the matter when this is Closed Beta it's because I am...why I am so passionate is because there are less opportunities until open beta...and that is when things will be more intensified. Which is why I hope they aren't always intentionally setting their self for disaster on these stress tests, but genuinely trying to meet the demands on some of them. Because otherwise they could end up in a situation where they are nowhere close to meeting the demands of Open Beta...and that would be a very bad thing...as it was on Beta release I'd be surprised if they were handling 2% of the player base and I'm sure the percentage would be 8% at the lowest percentage of a player base on open beta release. Not only is that a higher percentage but the player base would of course have more players.

I'm just trying to keep them from having to end up having the server be tied down a week due to not being able to handle the pressure. Let's say the player base is 50,000 for open beta...then that is 4,000 people online at the same time...that is certainly a much lower number than I'm expecting for open beta...but I'm worried they can't handle that let alone 8,000 or 16,000. If you guys are getting as many friends as I am interested then that number would be closer to 200,000 players on open beta...so needing to handle 16,000 players at a time.

You might be thinking...well just wait on the matter and it will balance itself over time, but most people do have a hard time waiting and I'm sure many new players won't wait around a week to give a game a 2nd chance after they weren't able to do proving grounds or tournaments the first time they logged in...let alone unable to even open packs.

To those that tell me before, "but you don't know development." You're right I don't know development, but I've been in other betas (closed and open alike) where everything is running smoothly within hours of going live. Sure there might be bugs, but those are bugs...that's not because the servers weren't meeting the demands.

Gwaer
04-25-2014, 11:01 AM
The point if fact is, since we are seeing so many if the same issues as earlier in alpha, it makes the work and claims about

"intentionally running the servers on basically an average desktop and sacrifice the experience now so that we don't have major issues down the road"

fall flat. Or at least not offer tangible benefit in a way that is even translucent to the customers.


We have no way to tell how bad things could have been without their previous optimizations during alpha. Beta was definitely more stable than alpha, even if tournaments weren't working and games weren't finishing, people could connect to games reliably, and the server itself didn't crash. We were chatting on it well after they announced they were going to bring it down for fixes.


if a game doesn't crash to stress in closed and open beta, it likely doesn't have enough users and will be even worse off at launch. Heck many of the games I've play tested have been very upset when their stress tests can't take the server down. Without the crash you can be positive there's a problem somewhere your limited user base wasn't able to coax out.

Rendakor
04-25-2014, 11:03 AM
The point if fact is, since we are seeing so many if the same issues as earlier in alpha, it makes the work and claims about

"intentionally running the servers on basically an average desktop and sacrifice the experience now so that we don't have major issues down the road"

fall flat. Or at least not offer tangible benefit in a way that is even translucent to the customers.

Similarly, iirc, we were supposed to transition to the live hardware before the launch if monetized beta to try and shake some bugs out and not put CZE in the needlessly precarious position of launching on untested hardware. Knowing those two pieces of information, I believe I reasonably hoped for and expected beta to be significantly more smooth than it has been.

Finally, it is hard to be optimistic about future feature launches, especially those with the necessity of being completely big free upon implementation (see: AH). But I can still blindly hope for the best ;).We did transition to live hardware when we went from alpha to beta; the problem is that we also increased the number of players.

Kami
04-25-2014, 11:05 AM
Please refrain from antagonizing other users directly. Focus on the topic/content/arguments and not the user behind them please.

bojanglesz
04-25-2014, 11:05 AM
Ah man, mod came in and ruined the fun.

knightofeffect
04-25-2014, 11:09 AM
@Gwear HexRex said the problems were not just load related

@Renedakor I know, I say as much. The point was, iirc, the timeline was for is to transition to the live hardware before the launch to shake out bugs. That combined with stress testing the server code earlier in alpha with their extreme resource-lack testing should have bought them more stability than what we are seeing.

Gwaer
04-25-2014, 11:11 AM
If the problems weren't load related then we aren't seeing the same problems as in alpha. They might look similar to us, but previously it was load issues.

Xenavire
04-25-2014, 11:13 AM
Request: Please get back on topic and stop the trolling.

I am going to do a small pro/con list for our current Beta situation. Feel free to dispute and of my assessments.

Pro:
Bugs are coming out of the woodwork due to the intense server load. This brings them to the surface to be fixed.
As things improve, there will be more regular players to keep the entire game lively, which is an improvement over alpha.
CZE will do what they can to reimburse players for any technical issues. This takes stress off a player.


Con:
The play experience can be quite lacking right now, and is obviously upsetting.
People have had their plans disrupted, which is entirely unpleasant. Especially the tournament scene, which was a huge draw.
In rare cases, due to the sheer amount of work being put into fixing the game, some players are unable to play due to all manner of account related issues that have yet to be resolved.


Overall, we are losing very little except for playtime right now. It might be a bad first impression for some people, but this is a Beta (and might I remind people that Beta is NOT a once size fits all term - some games are significantly more or less complete than others during alpha or beta phases.) People should have been expecting this, but some people are simply unaware of how bad early beta can be.

Rendakor
04-25-2014, 11:23 AM
@Rendakor I know, I say as much. The point was, iirc, the timeline was for is to transition to the live hardware before the launch to shake out bugs. That combined with stress testing the server code earlier in alpha with their extreme resource-lack testing should have bought them more stability than what we are seeing.
That's exactly what happened: they transitioned to live hardware before the game's real launch (or open beta if we're moving goalposts) to shake out bugs. Predictably, bugs appeared! They couldn't iron out all of the performance related issues in alpha because there weren't enough people testing the system. Pack opening in particular we only really toyed around with in alpha because it never mattered. If they had done a pre-beta wipe then given all of the testers a bunch of plat and told us to go nuts, they might have caught the issues with pack opening we had Wednesday night.

Xenavire you hit the nail on the head: so many games lately have treated (open) beta as launch, so people hear the Hex is hitting (closed) beta and expect a perfect experience. If they had just called this alpha-phase-2 or something, I don't think as many people would be upset.

Xenavire
04-25-2014, 11:27 AM
That's exactly what happened: they transitioned to live hardware before the game's real launch (or open beta if we're moving goalposts) to shake out bugs. Predictably, bugs appeared! They couldn't iron out all of the performance related issues in alpha because there weren't enough people testing the system. Pack opening in particular we only really toyed around with in alpha because it never mattered. If they had done a pre-beta wipe then given all of the testers a bunch of plat and told us to go nuts, they might have caught the issues with pack opening we had Wednesday night.

Xenavire you hit the nail on the head: so many games lately have treated (open) beta as launch, so people hear the Hex is hitting (closed) beta and expect a perfect experience. If they had just called this alpha-phase-2 or something, I don't think as many people would be upset.

Thats not a bad idea... Alpha-1, Alpha-2, Alpha-3. Then into Beta-X. Then a short Gamma phase (like pre-launch, about a week long.) If a naming convention like that became common, people would always know what to expect.

Gwaer
04-25-2014, 11:33 AM
Thats not a bad idea... Alpha-1, Alpha-2, Alpha-3. Then into Beta-X. Then a short Gamma phase (like pre-launch, about a week long.) If a naming convention like that became common, people would always know what to expect.
Nah, some game would use the phases incorrectly, and then we'll be in the same situation now. From my perspective people should already know what to expect in a closed beta =/

McGimp
04-25-2014, 11:41 AM
Pre-Alpha (Not really playable. Most features are not functional)
Alpha(Kinda playable. Most features are not functional)
Beta(Lots of bugs. Most features are available)
RC (Release Candidate. Still has bugs but stability is high and should be feature complete)
Release build (What we see when we can buy on the shelf).

Rendakor
04-25-2014, 11:45 AM
Here in reality-land:
F&F Alpha: Shits broke; glorified tech demo.
Alpha: Game is 50-75% complete, but buggy.
Beta: OPEN THE FLOODGATES!
Release: First major content update.

Gwaer
04-25-2014, 11:47 AM
Just because many games have treated it that way doesn't mean that all games are, or should.

Most of the time before the public even hears about "beta" in that situation it has already gone through a private closed beta as a test. Which is obviously not the case for hex.

bizznach
04-25-2014, 12:20 PM
God i wish there was some way for the people that cant see past their toys and cant see the awesomeness that is going to smack us upside our heads to sell their accounts if they really are that concerned or feel robbed and lied to.
For those angry ppl that sit alone at night in fear,shivering and all alone that they can i dunno,put their money where their mouth is and just leave.
But maybe its just me being old and sick of internet game forums.
But i can see exactly what i paid for and more materializing day by day.
And it feels like anyone with half a brain can see where this game is going and probably jump at the chance to safetly buy what you have in your possesion complaining about.
But whatever.
Maybe im wrong and this really does suck.

Turtlewing
04-25-2014, 12:20 PM
Thats not a bad idea... Alpha-1, Alpha-2, Alpha-3. Then into Beta-X. Then a short Gamma phase (like pre-launch, about a week long.) If a naming convention like that became common, people would always know what to expect.

If that concept were fundamentally sound it probably would have worked the first time when the "alpha, beta, release candidate, etc." conventions was created.

Xenavire
04-25-2014, 01:42 PM
If that concept were fundamentally sound it probably would have worked the first time when the "alpha, beta, release candidate, etc." conventions was created.

True, but adding more segments gives the devs more leeway. Gwaer is probably right that people would still use them incorrectly though.

Shaqattaq
04-25-2014, 04:16 PM
We appreciate everyone's concerns. DataDragon said it best in the first part, but this is just a step towards full release. We were able to identify some problems, and now our team is quickly working on solving those issues. Anybody who followed along with alpha can see that we are definitely making progress forward. It may be bumpy, but that comes with building something completely new. We appreciate how understanding and how amazingly supportive our playerbase is. It really feels like we're coming together as a team-- the HEX team and the players-- to make this game.


Entering my free weekly draft for a year code before the servers went down is looking more and more like a really bad decision. Hopefully there's some sort of compensation in the pipeline.

Yeah, we'll address this if it becomes a problem. Part of why I like working here is that we're empowered to do what's right for the players.

larryhl
04-25-2014, 06:48 PM
Yeah, we'll address this if it becomes a problem. Part of why I like working here is that we're empowered to do what's right for the players.

Thanks for the update Shaqattaq!

joseph5185
04-27-2014, 10:56 PM
So I must say, this thread is a bit...much. Wow people!

Good to know that there are at least some that understand what is going on. In a way, this is SUPPOSE TO HAPPEN! Why is that so hard to understand?

Investing and feeling entitled is one thing, but remember, you are EXTREMELY fortune to have had the opportunity afforded to you in the first place.

I was in this DAY1 and the strides and progression have been made forward is NIGHT AND DAY! It's like a completely different game...and that's not an exaggeration.

But ya know, passion is good. It's good to voice your opinion and shows that you really "care". Beta just started, please TRY to understand and give it some time.

At this stage, the complaining is unwarranted and not really helping anything, except for maybe upsetting others and causing futile arguments.

I mean, come on... a MOD had to get involved to reduce the temperature as it were.

This was meant to be constructive, but I'm interested to see where it goes of course. So pleeeease, let the thread continue =P. I, as well as others, will be around to try to smooth the rough edges as much as possible

PS.

I have no affiliation with Xenaire or anyone else for that matter ... lol

Lunarath
04-27-2014, 11:00 PM
All these companies using BETA as a big marketing thing has made people completely unaware of what a BETA actually is... a BETA is still for TESTING. the more that breaks the better

joseph5185
04-27-2014, 11:04 PM
All these companies using BETA as a big marketing thing has made people completely unaware of what a BETA actually is... a BETA is still for TESTING. the more that breaks the better

Exactly. The more that can be identified/resolved, the more polish that can be applied, the more feedback and new features can be implemented, etc.

This is not a bad thing. Truth is: This is a REAL BETA and I think many simply don't understand the difference.

Gwaer
04-27-2014, 11:09 PM
After cringing when this thread was bumped, I recovered, and you guys are alright. I realize I only like you because you agree with me. But during a zombie apocalypse, I'd not intentionally trip either of you to secure my escape.

Malachia
04-27-2014, 11:57 PM
"Guess Hex Not Ready for Release..."
ftfy

mach
04-28-2014, 01:40 AM
All these companies using BETA as a big marketing thing has made people completely unaware of what a BETA actually is... a BETA is still for TESTING. the more that breaks the better

All the companies using beta as a marketing tool have changed what beta actually is. It's now a marketing tool. The goal of alpha is now to iron out most of the bugs so people want to buy your beta.

joseph5185
04-28-2014, 01:47 AM
All the companies using beta as a marketing tool have changed what beta actually is. It's now a marketing tool. The goal of alpha is now to iron out most of the bugs so people want to buy your beta.

I would argue and say that most have been. Again, we had been in alpha for a long time (better part of a year). Server issues are not bug issues and this will be sorted sooner than later...

Lunarath
04-28-2014, 02:09 AM
All the companies using beta as a marketing tool have changed what beta actually is. It's now a marketing tool. The goal of alpha is now to iron out most of the bugs so people want to buy your beta.

The definition of a word doesn't change just because a few stupid people can't use it right.

"A trial of machinery, software, or other products, in the final stages of its development." This is what a beta is. so many other AAA games are still in this state even after release because they're just not given the time they need.

I just hope Hex will stay in beta untill there's no bugs and especially server and software issues.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 02:13 AM
The definition of a word doesn't change just because a few stupid people can't use it right.

Actually, this is completely wrong. The word faggot, for example, used to mean a bundle of sticks. And beta? Its a greek letter.

Words have their meaning changed by popular use.

Lunarath
04-28-2014, 02:17 AM
Actually, this is completely wrong. The word faggot, for example, used to mean a bundle of sticks. And beta? Its a greek letter.

Words have their meaning changed by popular use.

Words can have multiple meanings.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 02:28 AM
Words can have multiple meanings.

And the old meanings often fall out of favour. When was the last time you heard someone call a bundle of sticks a faggot?

I mean, I do agree with you overall, but words change meaning, and it seems to be more rapid now than ever in our known history.

BlackRoger
04-28-2014, 03:09 AM
I think the problem is we are not using enough letters.
I.E. closed beta and open beta, which are very different, still seem the same to most people as they are both called "Beta".
Most of the arguments against going into "Beta" in this thread are very true for an "open beta", but not so much for a closed one.

I suggest using all the letters up to Sigma to confuse the customers and make sure they do not know what to expect, and therefore cannot complain (Though I'm sure they will try).

joseph5185
04-28-2014, 03:30 AM
I just hope Hex will stay in beta untill there's no bugs and especially server and software issues.

If this were to be true, I would be BLOWN AWAY! With that being said, I fully expect there to be further server issues when this thing goes gold.

Can you even begin to fathom the increase in users? It could be several hundreds of thousands. How exactly are we suppose to test for THAT!?

Rapkannibale
04-28-2014, 04:16 AM
Im sure others have said and as frustrating this can be, remember a few things.

1) This is CZE's first digital game (afaik). Consider that even companies like Blizzard that have been making and running online games for a while couldn't manage to have a smooth launch (yes launch not beta) for Diablo 3 for example, I think CZE is doing a pretty good job with their first try.
2) I think most of us are in this for the long run, especially if you backed at one of the higher tiers, so if getting everything running smoothly takes a few more weeks thank expected so be it. It will be better for the game and better for us who invested in it.

Cheers!

Dichdude
04-28-2014, 06:15 AM
A Beta release (closed or open) is normally in software development terms feature complete (as far as all the features that will be included in the full release) and used for final testing and optimisation.

I am sure things will get worked out in the end and all this will be forgotten.....But I do think if a company releases a monetized client the users have every right to hold the product to the same standards as any other full release. Also they have every right to complain in any way they feel is warranted if the product is not living up to their own expectations. I feel this way about any product that is released not just HEX.

Fingers crossed things will get sorted out and the road ahead is smooth.

TJTaylor
04-28-2014, 06:20 AM
I just hope Hex will stay in beta untill there's no bugs and especially server and software issues.

You want it to be in beta indefinitely? There is always going to be something that needs fixing.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 06:21 AM
A Beta release (closed or open) is normally in software development terms feature complete (as far as all the features that will be included in the full release) and used for final testing and optimisation.

I am sure things will get worked out in the end and all this will be forgotten.....But I do think if a company releases a monetized client the users have every right to hold the product to the same standards as any other full release. Also they have every right to complain in any way they feel is warranted if the product is not living up to their own expectations. I feel this way about any product that is released not just HEX.

Fingers crossed things will get sorted out and the road ahead is smooth.



I disagree - they need to test the monetisation, because that is a feature of the full release. It needs to not be buggy. (So players shouldn't hold them to the standards of a launch release). And many other games have added features during beta, so 'feature complete' often means nothing.

Besides, open beta is when the game will be PvP feature complete, and thats supposedly about a month away - the 'PvE beta' won't be starting for a while, but it is a separate phase to the PvP beta.

Its a bit of a mess, but they aren't breaking any hard rules with the way they have it planned.

DuroNL
04-28-2014, 06:36 AM
I was in the ESO beta weekends. It was mostly unplayable a lot of the time, and there were critical quest progression bugs that effectively stopped you playing.

I still think Hex is doing better already.

True, i meant ESO on product launch in regards to other MMO's that went in product launch.
Even after the Launch of the finished games they had quest bugs that stopped people from progressing, but the server loads were stable on launch.

Beta is generally the same for all MMO/games...

Hex is in line with other closed Beta's ive been in, some stuff works, some stuff is overloaded, some stuff has bugs :P
I think its mostly hardware related that can't handle the big amount of any launch, either BETA or Stable versions.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 06:47 AM
True, i meant ESO on product launch in regards to other MMO's that went in product launch.
Even after the Launch of the finished games they had quest bugs that stopped people from progressing, but the server loads were stable on launch.

Beta is generally the same for all MMO/games...

Hex is in line with other closed Beta's ive been in, some stuff works, some stuff is overloaded, some stuff has bugs :P
I think its mostly hardware related that can't handle the big amount of any launch, either BETA or Stable versions.

Well, the current word is that CZE will be able to add/remove servers easily to support larger and smaller populations, all on the go. No downtime, nothing like that.

So I wouldn't be surprised if they actually have us all camping out in a single server to stress test it, so that they can extrapolate that out into dozens of servers. If they are doing it the clever way, they might actually be one of the first companies to achieve a near-flawless launch day.

Then again, it only takes one loose bolt to send squirrels and hamsters flying throughout the servers, rather than on their little treadmills.

Lunarath
04-28-2014, 06:56 AM
If this were to be true, I would be BLOWN AWAY! With that being said, I fully expect there to be further server issues when this thing goes gold.

Can you even begin to fathom the increase in users? It could be several hundreds of thousands. How exactly are we suppose to test for THAT!?

I really doubt several hundred thousand people will join the game between open beta ending and release.

The primary reason i want it to stay in beta for as long as possible, being it open or closed. Is that reviewers can't make a final review of the game before it's released

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 07:01 AM
I really doubt several hundred thousand people will join the game between open beta ending and release.

The primary reason i want it to stay in beta for as long as possible, being it open or closed. Is that reviewers can't make a final review of the game before it's released

Preliminary reviews already exist for Hex. No-one can stop those from happening. But official reviews are often forced to be held until launch, yes. I am good friends with a reviewer, and have helped him many times on his reviews, so I know the goings-on. And he is impressed with Hex at this point, and I know he wouldn't have a lot of negatives to point out (on the basis that those bad points should be polished before released.)

And I wouldn't make any predictions about players coming in. People are already begging for CBT invites, and when any true F2P aspects hit - it is going to be a flood. I almost wish Cory would do the first wave of PvE during CBT just to make sure the systems don't collapse on day one of PvE.

frychikn
04-28-2014, 07:34 AM
will this game eventually flop? i dont know. BUT i dont see why this game having a couple hundred thousand players seems impossible to some. I mean any magic player should be interested in this game off the bat. It is pretty much magic but better. Add in the PVE and cheaper prices, AND maybe some loyal cryptozoic customers(wow ccg was pretty big, but a lot of that was due to it being WoW). As long as they can be consistent with working content, theres no reason for this game not to be a success.

Malachia
04-28-2014, 07:40 AM
will this game eventually flop? i dont know. BUT i dont see why this game having a couple hundred thousand players seems impossible to some. I mean any magic player should be interested in this game off the bat. It is pretty much magic but better. Add in the PVE and cheaper prices, AND maybe some loyal cryptozoic customers(wow ccg was pretty big, but a lot of that was due to it being WoW). As long as they can be consistent with working content, theres no reason for this game not to be a success.

I don't know if I would say its like magic but better. MTG has had a lot more experience and a long history of mechanics and cards and they keep coming up with more unique and cool stuff.

I will say that Hex has a ton of potential though, more than MTG for sure. Especially if they keep using the digital platform for cool stuff like they said they would (which MTG can't)

GatticusFinch
04-28-2014, 07:41 AM
All these companies using BETA as a big marketing thing has made people completely unaware of what a BETA actually is... a BETA is still for TESTING. the more that breaks the better

Call me old fashioned, but when a company comes out with a "beta" that includes a working store where I can give them actual money without a wipe, it's no longer a beta. They could have left this closed beta in the same paradigm as the alpha--give everyone all the cards and/or test the store with fake money. This beta is the same beta you are complaining about as a "marketing thing." As soon as there is a real money store tied to the beta or a "no wipe" scenario, it is no longer a beta, but a release. Once there is actual money involved, people expect release level customer service, and rightfully so.

There are too many people emotionally invested into the amount of money they gave Hex to have a rational conversation about this. No matter what the complaint, a majority on these forums will say your complaint is invalid because "beta" or your opinion is wrong because that's not CZE's opinion.

BlackRoger
04-28-2014, 07:54 AM
You are welcomed to expect whatever you want to expect.
Unfortunetally this is very expirience specific, and different people will expect different things depending on which betas they were on.
Most people however who've been in the Hex Alpha were pretty mentally prepared for bugs I think.

Especially considering I see here positive opinions from most people, meaning they saw it as what it is - Beta.

Would we have wanted a smoother beta start? sure
Is this a big deal? pretty sure not, considering CZE have assured us we will be refunded for whatever we lost.

Khazrakh
04-28-2014, 07:59 AM
To quote myself from another thread:

If they hadn't given out the rewards there wouldn't have been nearly as much players around and thus the problems we have right now might very well have occurred at a later point in time.
You can't know if something works until you test it and that's why it's labeled as "Closed Beta" - things are meant to break

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 08:44 AM
But I do think if a company releases a monetized client the users have every right to hold the product to the same standards as any other full release.

This is crazy, because

(a) monetized betas are a very common thing at this point, pointless to complain about them
(b) monetized functions clearly need to be tested very rigorously. You can't just throw them up on release day and hope they work.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 08:53 AM
Call me old fashioned, but when a company comes out with a "beta" that includes a working store where I can give them actual money without a wipe, it's no longer a beta.

Why on earth is this a thing with people? It must be some hold over from older times when everything was brick and mortar or something. Are you envisioning yourself standing in a general good store and handing over your cash and receiving something that doesn't work yet?

Obviously they have to test the entire set of functions for people exchanging real money for in game goods. They need to make sure it works. They can't just throw that code out there on release day and hope for the best - it needs the most rigorous and careful testing.

You aren't *required* to give them money. It's completely optional. Monetized betas are exceedingly common and have been for years, I'm shocked and amazed it still causes people trouble.

It's no different, in concept, from a pre -order. You are giving the company money before the game is ready for launch. The idea that as soon as the company accepts any money it's ready for launch, has no basis in reality.

I've spent some money in their store to test it. I would not have been surprised if there had been a bug and my platinum had not shown up. In such a case, I'm confident a support ticket would have eventually resolved the issue. But by being part of beta, you are signing up to experience bugs.

If you don't want bugs, wait for release!

The criticisms of CZE are really unfair here: they are testing their store in beta, their store has some bugs, people get mad and say that if there is a store then it's NOT beta, therefore the bugs are unacceptable!!11

How much you want to bet that if CZE didn't put out the store until release, they'd complain about the bugs there and demand to know why this wasn't tested in beta?

There is simply no pleasing some people.

ossuary
04-28-2014, 08:54 AM
This is crazy, because

(a) monetized betas are a very common thing at this point, pointless to complain about them
(b) monetized functions clearly need to be tested very rigorously. You can't just throw them up on release day and hope they work.

It is never pointless to complain about something that isn't working how it's supposed to. That's a ridiculous statement. Other things being equally bad is also not a justification for this to be bad. Again, ridiculous.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 08:55 AM
For people who just can't get over the store thing, just imagine the store as a way to increase your kickstarter pledge level/benefits.

Obviously no one would say that CZE allowing people to increase their kickstarter backing levels meant the game was really in full release.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 08:57 AM
It is never pointless to complain about something that isn't working how it's supposed to. That's a ridiculous statement. Other things being equally bad is also not a justification for this to be bad. Again, ridiculous.

The purpose of beta is to find bugs. We found some bugs.

What about this makes you think it's not working?

Also, monetized betas aren't 'bad' they are standard industry practice. You need to prove that they are actually something bad, instead of standard industry practice you just happen to dislike.

bojanglesz
04-28-2014, 09:15 AM
The purpose of beta is to find bugs. We found some bugs.

What about this makes you think it's not working?

Also, monetized betas aren't 'bad' they are standard industry practice. You need to prove that they are actually something bad, instead of standard industry practice you just happen to dislike.

We're <50% feature complete. Not even really a beta by true standards.

CZE just had to get that cash.

Pezzle
04-28-2014, 09:31 AM
Also, monetized betas aren't 'bad' they are standard industry practice. You need to prove that they are actually something bad, instead of standard industry practice you just happen to dislike.

Sorry, What?

What is specifically good about release betas? Are you implying that all 'standard industry practice' is automatically good?

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 09:36 AM
Sorry, What?

What is specifically good about release betas? Are you implying that all 'standard industry practice' is automatically good?

What is a 'release beta'? who said anything about them whatsoever?

Standard industry practices are just that: it is obviously incorrect to attack a company as being uniquely bad for simply doing what is standard in the industry.

GatticusFinch
04-28-2014, 09:38 AM
Also, monetized betas aren't 'bad' they are standard industry practice. You need to prove that they are actually something bad, instead of standard industry practice you just happen to dislike.

Something that is "standard industry practice" can never be bad for the consumer? You can go read the giant thread asking where the compensation for the packs, platinum, and draft tickets people lost as proof that they are bad. You can go read the threads on the Hearthstone monetized beta where people lost product.

You are really grasping for justification here.

EntropyBall
04-28-2014, 09:39 AM
Call me old fashioned, but when a company comes out with a "beta" that includes a working store where I can give them actual money without a wipe, it's no longer a beta. They could have left this closed beta in the same paradigm as the alpha--give everyone all the cards and/or test the store with fake money. This beta is the same beta you are complaining about as a "marketing thing." As soon as there is a real money store tied to the beta or a "no wipe" scenario, it is no longer a beta, but a release. Once there is actual money involved, people expect release level customer service, and rightfully so.

There are too many people emotionally invested into the amount of money they gave Hex to have a rational conversation about this. No matter what the complaint, a majority on these forums will say your complaint is invalid because "beta" or your opinion is wrong because that's not CZE's opinion.

I think this is pretty spot-on. To me, you can't hide behind "beta" when you are taking money and playing for keeps. People are flipping out now because they have said there will be no wipes (barring catastrophe). I wish they had done a closed beta on the new hardware, handed out codes, let people screw around, and then wiped once they had things sorted out a bit more. The downside to this, obviously, is that some people would be put off by having their good cards taken away by the wipe and would be furious even though they were told the cards were going to be wiped. And maybe if everyone knew there were wipes, they wouldn't have even gotten the concurrency that they had this week, and thus wouldn't have flushed out all the issues.

I have full faith that CZE will rectify stuff that goes wrong right now, but I wish they didn't have to be spending so much time and money responding to all these support tickets. And I wish that those just logging into Hex for the first time had a better first impression, because this game is great and needs good publicity.

Stopsight
04-28-2014, 09:42 AM
There are two truths, war never changes and gamers are whiny and entitled.

I lost draft tokens but I'm confident I'll get them refunded as that is what hex has said. If beta wasn't monetized and was due to be wiped I wouldn't be testing it, that's just how I am.

Gwaer
04-28-2014, 09:43 AM
Something that is "standard industry practice" can never be bad for the consumer? You can go read the giant thread asking where the compensation for the packs, platinum, and draft tickets people lost as proof that they are bad. You can go read the threads on the Hearthstone monetized beta where people lost product.

You are really grasping for justification here.

lol, if complaint threads were proof that something was bad, then nothing good has ever existed in this world.

Pezzle
04-28-2014, 09:46 AM
Cash shop is open, I consider that a released game. They call it a closed beta, I call it a released beta. Several people in this thread have commented on the 'release' state of this game.

Who said Cryptozoic was uniquely bad for monetizing beta as you call it? Why are release betas or monetized betas good for the industry? It being a 'standard practice' does not make it good.

GatticusFinch
04-28-2014, 09:47 AM
lol, if complaint threads were proof that something was bad, then nothing good has ever existed in this world.

So, people not getting their product replaced and complaining about it is ... good?

Khazrakh
04-28-2014, 09:50 AM
So, people not getting their product replaced and complaining about it is ... good?

No, it's plain wrong as they WILL get their product replaced and meanwhile they are just being whiny snots about it.
Sorry for the drastic wording, but it really makes me sad to see how the forum changed the last days...

Gwaer
04-28-2014, 09:51 AM
It's not proof that an inherently bad decision was made, nor is it good. People complain all the time, about everything.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 10:06 AM
Lets get this 100% clear - players do not have any say in whether a game is considered launched or not. End of story.

CZE says it is closed beta? Then that is what it is. There is no standard for what is required to name game production phase.

Stop harping on about the shop being open - it is required to test that feature. Nothing more, nothing less. The fact it is 99% functional just means they did a fantastic job - they could just as easily close it down until launch, but they want to test all the features together - you buy plat (testing) to buy boosters (testing). You then either open boosters (testing) or enter a tournament (testing).

Everything is testing and is required to make sure the game is stable enough to launch. There is no further reason to discuss whether this is closed beta or not - it is called closed beta. It is like a beta in all respects. You will lose nothing by participating, nor will you lose anything by not participating.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 10:17 AM
Cash shop is open, I consider that a released game.

You're wrong.


They call it a closed beta

That is what it is.


I call it a released beta. Several people in this thread have commented on the 'release' state of this game.

A tiny handful. All wrong.

If it's standard industry practice, the burden of proof is on you to show why it is bad.

You can't just say stamp your foot and say "Well, I don't like monetized betas, so CZE shouldn't have one!"

If monetized betas are a standard community practice, which they are, then you can argue that monetized betas are bad for the industry, but you cannot argue that a monetized beta is the same thing as a release, because clearly, according to the industry, it is not. Therefore, people saying a monetized beta is equivalent to a release are simply objectively wrong. You might think maybe it SHOULD be treated the same, but it is not - therefore you cannot assert that the monetized beta which is NOT the same as a release should be held to the same standards as a release because you think a monetized beta actually should be the same as release.

Whether or not a game has been released is up to the company producing the game: literally no one cares what bizarre standard you have come up with inside your own head. It's totally irrelevant.

Hex is using the industry standard here for defining releases and betas. People saying a monetized beta is equivalent to a release and thus should be held to the same standard are thus clearly wrong and haven't a leg to stand on.

You can't fault a game company for not adhering to definitions that exist only inside your head.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 10:28 AM
To me, you can't hide behind "beta" when you are taking money and playing for keeps.

Those may be your definitions but they are not those of the industry. Consumers obviously dont' get to decide when a product has left beta and entered release - the producers do.

You assert that beta is over when

1) they've taken your money
2) there is no longer a wipe

It is quite clear even from a cursory examination of the game development scene that both of these points are false. (You gave them money in the kick starter - did you think the game officially released then?)

Look at hearthstone, for example. They had one beta wipe in early October 2013, IIRC. Then they were in monetized beta until release, March 2014, months later. There are no grounds whatsoever for claiming a monetized no wipe beta is the same as release.

World of tanks did something similar. And Warframe, I believe.

You clearly cannot upbraid CZE for not meeting definitions that only you adhere to. You can argue that CZE should adopt your defintions, but until they do, we'll be defining when beta ends by what they and the games industry consider the definition of beta and release, not whatever one particular individual thought sounded good in their head.

Pezzle
04-28-2014, 10:32 AM
A fun game!

Lets get this 100% clear - you do not have any say in whether people consider a game is considered launched or not. End of story.


I can call a tree a fish, that does not make it so.

Some people considering the game released is not irrational. They are taking payments in exchange for goods or services (that may or may not be provided at this point). If you are not getting what you paid for, being told it is beta does not cut it.

Pezzle
04-28-2014, 10:33 AM
I would like to see your grand codex of industry standards, sirs.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 10:34 AM
A fun game!

Lets get this 100% clear - you do not have any say in whether people consider a game is considered launched or not. End of story.


I can call a tree a fish, that does not make it so.

Some people considering the game released is not irrational. They are taking payments in exchange for goods or services (that may or may not be provided at this point). If you are not getting what you paid for, being told it is beta does not cut it.

You can consider a tree a fish, but that does not make it so.

Your reasoning is flawed, and while you can have your own thoughts, there are absolutely no grounds on which you can blame CZE for not meeting you ridiculous standards.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 10:36 AM
I mean, honestly, are we saying that CZE having less money (by disabling their store) is somehow going to lead to a less buggy game faster?

Do we really want them to test all this stuff 'for real' on launch day and have potentially hundreds of thousands of players submitting tickets over real money issues and platinum going missing - rather than testing it on a much smaller crowd in closed beta?

I have no idea what people are even asking for. Saying "CZE should work faster and have fewer bugs" is not helpful. Are you disappointed beta has bugs? Me too! Do you want the game to be released already, perfect, fully formed, feature complete, and bug free? Me too! That sounds great! But 'release the game now with no bugs!' is not exactly a feasible directive.

Pezzle
04-28-2014, 10:37 AM
What ridiculous standard would that be? Asking that a paid product work as intended?

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 10:38 AM
Some people considering the game released is not irrational. They are taking payments in exchange for goods or services (that may or may not be provided at this point).

It's entirely irrational.

Have you not heard of the concept of the pre-order?

Considering the game released once the company takes your money is objectively and totally incorrect.

Do you honestly think it's rational to consider the game to have 'released' the day after the kickstarter ended, because they had taken payments?


What ridiculous standard would that be? Asking that a paid product work as intended?

You are asking an unreleased paid product in beta to work the same as a paid product that has been released. That is entirely ridiculous.

Who do you think sets the date after which the paid product must perform as intended, but before which it is still in development and it cannot be held to the post-release standard?

If it's you, why didn't you just complaining the instant the KS closed to help hurry CZE along? After all - you paid money for a product - and it's not working yet!


If you are not getting what you paid for, being told it isn't out yet doesn't not cut it.

Does that sound reasonable to you? Maybe it will help you see why your arguments fail to persuade.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 10:39 AM
What ridiculous standard would that be? Asking that a paid product work as intended?

Expecting a closed beta to work flawlessly. It doesn't matter if money is changing hands as long as you lose nothing out of that transaction (here is a newsflash, you are not). The fact is, it is beta, and if you expect anything else, too bad. You will get a beta.

And frankly, CZE has done better so far than any company I can think of and is still being blamed. Since when does being 'Fans first' = 'Kick me'?

Rapkannibale
04-28-2014, 10:40 AM
So I guess some people on here consider Steam Early Access games also fully released right? By their logic those games shouldn't be hiding behind the "early access" tag, after all they are charging money. I was hoping the Hex community would stay clear of the entitled crowd that plagues most of the Internet but alas they have arrived.

frychikn
04-28-2014, 10:41 AM
this thread is turning stupid.

if say 100% of the customers thought "this isnt beta they are taking my money" and all leave. guess whose right? its not CZE......

just an example, i think its ridiculous to think its whatever cze says it is. if CZE said water is dry, that does not make it true.

maybe its because im a marketing grad, but normally the customer decides what is really what.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 10:45 AM
this thread is turning stupid.

if say 100% of the customers thought "this isnt beta they are taking my money" and all leave. guess whose right? its not CZE......

just an example, i think its ridiculous to think its whatever cze says it is. if CZE said water is dry, that does not make it true.

CZE is not using their own weird wacko standards here. They are adhering to the games industry standards.

Monetized bets are absolutely nothing unusual whatsoever.

The question you have to ask yourself is: who decides when a software is released? The developers of that software, or random people on a forum?

Marsden
04-28-2014, 10:46 AM
So I guess some people on here consider Steam Early Access games also fully released right?

There's a whole pile of comments on the Steam forums that sadly say they do. A lot of people simply cannot comprehend Early Access and what that means. And we're at a point before Early Access. We're still in the sausage factory guys, Closed Beta. If you don't like what Closed Beta (or even Open Beta) means then don't use your codes yet, don't log in. Wait until it's Release.

frychikn
04-28-2014, 10:47 AM
CZE is not using their own weird wacko standards here. They are adhering to the games industry standards.

Monetized bets are absolutely nothing unusual whatsoever.

The question you have to ask yourself is: who decides when a software is released? The developers of that software, or random people on a forum?

are you telling me that "industry standards" have never been overturned?

Malakili
04-28-2014, 10:48 AM
So I guess some people on here consider Steam Early Access games also fully released right? By their logic those games shouldn't be hiding behind the "early access" tag, after all they are charging money. I was hoping the Hex community would stay clear of the entitled crowd that plagues most of the Internet but alas they have arrived.

So there's a difference between paying a flat fee for a product, getting early access, and then eventually getting the full product and a game that is just for all intents and purposes open for business and continually asks for more money. Now, Hex is not currently open for business. But the moment they flip that switch to open beta it will be.

But in any event - consider someone with a year's worth of free drafts to redeem. Do you feel like you are getting your full value for that if you start drafting this week? For example, double-backs aren't implemented yet so the cards you play in tournaments don't get that added value.

But sure, feel free to dismiss valid concerns with some hand waving about "entitlement." I've been playing this as much as anyone. Hell, I even got a draft in during that window the tournament servers were up and working. But this conversation has become so polarized it is ridiculous.

You can both enjoy the game, not be really super worried about the future AND have concerns about the switch to beta. There is no reason it has to be one or the other.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 10:48 AM
this thread is turning stupid.

if say 100% of the customers thought "this isnt beta they are taking my money" and all leave. guess whose right? its not CZE......

just an example, i think its ridiculous to think its whatever cze says it is. if CZE said water is dry, that does not make it true.

maybe its because im a marketing grad, but normally the customer decides what is really what.

First of all, this is CZE's project - they can call it 'Goatfest' for all it matters to anyone else, they own it.

And it is obvious that only a small percentage of entitled persons think that spending money on a game means it is released, and I call bullshit. There are plenty of betas you have to pay to get into - none of those are complete. There are also plenty of betas that you have to pay to test features - Hearthstone is a good example. Then there are the kickstarters - you effectively purchase those long, long before there is anything available to play, are those finished?

The answer is that none of those were fully launched. Neither is Hex. The people who think so need a reality check.

Gwaer
04-28-2014, 10:48 AM
Rotfl. Everyone being wrong doesn't somehow make the them right. It's a fact the game is beta. If everyone thought it wasn't and left, they'd all be wrong still. If everyone thought the world was flat, it'd still be round.

Gulbech
04-28-2014, 10:49 AM
maybe its because im a marketing grad, but normally the customer decides what is really what.

That is just as stupid, I have a master degree in economic and marketing. CZE has stated lots of times it is closed beta and what the purpose is, and most people understand this. There are just some people here complaining about verything, and should take a break until the game goes live if they cant accept what closed beta means.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 10:51 AM
are you telling me that "industry standards" have never been overturned?

No, but good attempt at shifting the goal posts after your initial argument was demolished :D

If you succeed in overturning the industry standards as to what constitutes a beta and a release, feel free to come back here with proof and ask CZE to adhere to the new standards.

A monetized beta with no wipe is still a beta. It is not release. This is true across the games industry.

You may not like it, but there is no point in criticizing Hex for doing what every other game does. You can't ask one company to unilaterally handicap themselves compared to their peers.

Malakili
04-28-2014, 10:54 AM
Rotfl. Everyone being wrong doesn't somehow make the them right. It's a fact the game is beta. If everyone thought it wasn't and left, they'd all be wrong still. If everyone thought the world was flat, it'd still be round.

If everyone thought it wasn't and left, they'd all be wrong still - and the game might die out. That's the point. You seem to want to make this into an argument about being right on some kind of objective level. The fact of the matter is that people's experiences of the game are going to be subjective and you can't apply and objective standard to them. The whole point is that as a game developer CZE has to at least consider those experiences.

For the most part, in fact, they are. If they were taking your approach - essentially putting your hands on your hips and saying "well that just isn't the facts" - they'd look terrible and be doing their fans a disservice. Thankfully they aren't.

Pezzle
04-28-2014, 10:57 AM
No, this is not a pre order, sorry. The kickstarter funding is an entirely separate issue, and kickstarter is not really a preorder either. As part of Hex you can exchange money for things that are supposed to be available NOW (and they are not) that is not a preorder.

But it is fine, you can live in a fever dream fantasy world where heroing up for Cryptozoic at the slightest mention that things are not as advertised gets you a job or whatever it is that cranks your clock.

I prefer people be aware of what is broken. I see no reason to pay Cryptozoic for products I cannot use or serve no purpose to me at this stage, like platinum. I see no reason to encourage others to spend even more money so that Cryptozoic gets it 'right' or whatever the standard is that is being applied. There are other reasons I am unhappy with Cryptozoic right now, aside from the cash shop, but that is not a subject to be discussed here.

Gwaer
04-28-2014, 10:58 AM
It is a fact of beta because of how clear they have made it. The ones taking the hands on hips approach are the people claiming thi should be like release. It's impossible for everyone to walk away from this game thinking this is release because it has been made abundantly clear that it is not. Heck the launcher even says beta on it. Thankfully only very small portion of the population has the necessary insanity to claim otherwise.


@Pezzle: your other reasons are likely the root of your problem, as best I can tell you would like to stir up drama where none exists simply because you have some sort of issue with CZE. paying for platinum now or paying for platinum later is exactly the same. Anything you lose will be reimbursed. Heck in some cases you will get more mileage out of it, pay for draft with plat, get halfway through have the plat reimbursed, play through another draft. You just got 1.5 drafts out of 1 draft worth of plat. Congrats.

Khazrakh
04-28-2014, 11:00 AM
Thankfully they aren't.

And that's the whole point - They aren't. In no way actually. I didn't know CZE when I backed the game and I thought "Fans first!" was just another random phrase. But it turned out - it wasn't, it really is fans first.
Sure, I'd much prefer to play a draft right now than to have this conversation. But it's Closed Beta, things are meant to break in Beta and CZE did communicate exactly that when they launched the beta. But not only that, they clearly stated, that you'll get full compensation whenever something breaks - full compensation with no questions asked even.

I don't have a reason to not believe in those words and that's why I not only don't get all the whining going on, but it's actually making me sad...sad and angry.

Rapkannibale
04-28-2014, 11:04 AM
But in any event - consider someone with a year's worth of free drafts to redeem. Do you feel like you are getting your full value for that if you start drafting this week? For example, double-backs aren't implemented yet so the cards you play in tournaments don't get that added value.

But sure, feel free to dismiss valid concerns with some hand waving about "entitlement." I've been playing this as much as anyone. Hell, I even got a draft in during that window the tournament servers were up and working. But this conversation has become so polarized it is ridiculous.

You can both enjoy the game, not be really super worried about the future AND have concerns about the switch to beta. There is no reason it has to be one or the other.

I think you have some valid arguments and of course people should be able to express their concerns. However I feel that these concerns would be appropriate if CZE had not been open about what people should expect. And I am one of those people with free drafts and yet I feel I am getting full value. The only reason to not feel that is if you thought CZE would not make up for lost drafts and I don't think CZE has in any way raised concerns that their "players first" approach is not something they will stick to.

frychikn
04-28-2014, 11:05 AM
No, but good attempt at shifting the goal posts after your initial argument was demolished :D

If you succeed in overturning the industry standards as to what constitutes a beta and a release, feel free to come back here with proof and ask CZE to adhere to the new standards.

A monetized beta with no wipe is still a beta. It is not release. This is true across the games industry.

You may not like it, but there is no point in criticizing Hex for doing what every other game does. You can't ask one company to unilaterally handicap themselves compared to their peers.

you should probably get off your high horse, i simply asked you a question. my initial argument wasnt "demolished" nor am i "shifting goal posts".

the fact that you would state "hrhr i demolished your argument because your response isnt some drawn out post" is ridiculous. makes me think you have not much of an education or you are immature. you seem like somebody that gets checked irl quite a bit, if this is your attitude offline.

Malakili
04-28-2014, 11:06 AM
It is a fact of beta because of how clear they have made it. The ones taking the hands on hips approach are the people claiming thi should be like release. It's impossible for everyone to walk away from this game thinking this is release because it has been made abundantly clear that it is not. Heck the launcher even says beta on it. Thankfully only very small portion of the population has the necessary insanity to claim otherwise.

Are people claiming this should be like release? I think people are saying, if you are going to be taking my money, I want something better than this. The beta vs. release argument isn't even the real point. I regret I ever mentioned it because some people apparently took it way too literally.

The point is, people have some standard in mind for something that is taking their money. That standard isn't the same for everyone. The question is, does Hex currently meet that standard for people or not - particularly the people in closed beta. The question is, at least right now, clearly not for a lot of people - as evidenced by that being expressed in this thread.

That's a way different question then whether or not people are willing to invest money in a kickstarter to help fund the creation of the game in the first place. Mostly, those of us with the higher end pledge levels have the best of it - all our drafts are for life. If the first month is bumpy, well, whatever, it's all just free cards to me anyway. But everyone else has to consider using their year of drafts code, spending money on platinum right away to increase their collection (or do they wait for trading and the auction house?) and to play drafts beyond whatever number of free ones they got.

Hopefully those people release this isn't the finished product and come back when it is more to their liking. I haven't seen lots of talk about some kind of exodus. Most of the people seem to just be insisting they won't spend money until X Y or Z is working fully. Which seems to be essentially what you want - so I'm not sure why you are so angry over it. Just don't assume everyone has the same experience as you when it comes to the game.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 11:10 AM
No, this is not a pre order, sorry. The kickstarter funding is an entirely separate issue, and kickstarter is not really a preorder either.

It's a pre-order where you aren't actually guaranteed to ever get your product :D Kickstarter is even more uncertain than a pre order.


As part of Hex you can exchange money for things that are supposed to be available NOW

According to who?



at the slightest mention that things are not as advertised

Where has CZE advertised that there will be no bugs in beta?
Alternately, where have they advertised that the game has released?

If this is about them not meeting their advertised date in the kickstarter, yep, they missed that by a mile. Chalk it up to inexperience with creating digital games. I was far from the only one disappointed to learn that instead of the game being released in months, it would be released in years. However, as that has happened in the past and nothing they do can change it, I don't see much point in dwelling on it.


I see no reason to pay Cryptozoic for products I cannot use or serve no purpose to me at this stage, like platinum.

No one is asking you to pay CZE $$ for platinum if you don't want to.



There are other reasons I am unhappy with Cryptozoic right now, aside from the cash shop, but that is not a subject to be discussed here.

Ah. Now it all makes sense. I kept thinking "Why would anyone be upset about a monetized beta? Where have they been the past 5 years?" but you are actually upset about something else and just using the monetized beta as an excuse to go after CZE.

frychikn
04-28-2014, 11:11 AM
Are people claiming this should be like release? I think people are saying, if you are going to be taking my money, I want something better than this. The beta vs. release argument isn't even the real point. I regret I ever mentioned it because some people apparently took it way too literally.

The point is, people have some standard in mind for something that is taking their money. That standard isn't the same for everyone. The question is, does Hex currently meet that standard for people or not - particularly the people in closed beta. The question is, at least right now, clearly not for a lot of people - as evidenced by that being expressed in this thread.

That's a way different question then whether or not people are willing to invest money in a kickstarter to help fund the creation of the game in the first place. Mostly, those of us with the higher end pledge levels have the best of it - all our drafts are for life. If the first month is bumpy, well, whatever, it's all just free cards to me anyway. But everyone else has to consider using their year of drafts code, spending money on platinum right away to increase their collection (or do they wait for trading and the auction house?) and to play drafts beyond whatever number of free ones they got.

Hopefully those people release this isn't the finished product and come back when it is more to their liking. I haven't seen lots of talk about some kind of exodus. Most of the people seem to just be insisting they won't spend money until X Y or Z is working fully. Which seems to be essentially what you want - so I'm not sure why you are so angry over it. Just don't assume everyone has the same experience as you when it comes to the game.

+100

people with sand in their vagina over this is ridiculous. seriously, calm down. not everybody thinks alike, deal with it. especially those of you with a superiority complex. just stop.

Gwaer
04-28-2014, 11:13 AM
The people that are dissatisfied with the quality of the game are also the people saying they expect release like quality from a beta. Seriously. If you don't expect bugs and to have to wait for tickets to be manually resolved you shouldn't be in beta. That's a huge failing of CZE I have personally addressed many times. It was a mistake to invite everyone to alpha, and closed beta. Period. The few people are complaining are also the people who obviously have the least grasp of what game development is like, and that's totally okay. I likely do not have a strong understanding of whatever their jobs are. But just like I can't go into their lawyers office and tell them how stupid their lawyering is, they can't come into my house and try to Redefine everything either.

Point is, people who are upset because they are losing something are wrong, because they're not actually losing anything, it'll be reimbursed, people that are upset because of bugs are wrong, because bugs are expected, and this has been incredibly smooth for a closed beta so far.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 11:14 AM
I think people are saying, if you are going to be taking my money, I want something better than this.

And what we have been saying from the start is that a little patience goes a long way. The few problems in the game right now will be fixed within 1-2 patches (like any other beta game). As for the systems, 99% of them are working just fine.

What else does anyone want? Incomplete features? I don't think that will make anyone happy.

Pezzle
04-28-2014, 11:17 AM
Gwaer, if I was trying to stir up drama I would be posting much more prolifically about various issues. It is the number of blind apologists that puzzles me. Since I am not alone in refusing to accept 'it's a beta!' as a blanket immunity once you start accepting money it would be better to have a discussion about issues. Instead, we have this. Exciting, isn't it?

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 11:19 AM
you should probably get off your high horse, i simply asked you a question. my initial argument wasnt "demolished" nor am i "shifting goal posts".

the fact that you would state "hrhr i demolished your argument because your response isnt some drawn out post" is ridiculous. makes me think you have not much of an education or you are immature. you seem like somebody that gets checked irl quite a bit, if this is your attitude offline.


people with sand in their vagina over this is ridiculous. seriously

A slight tip: when you are losing a debate, jumping directly to wild person insults doesn't really buttress your arguments all that well. It serves rather to confirm that your'e out of real arguments and must resort to insults in a vain attempt to get a rise.

An additional tip, gratis, is that you should probably refrain from questioning the education of others in a post full of spelling, capitalization, and grammatical errors.

(Aside: that arguing on a forum is considered 'online' not 'offline'.)

It's also much more rhetorically effective to refrain from childish and immature insults yourself if you wish to paint your opponents as immature. It might be tempting to try a kitchen sink approach, flinging all kinds of insults and seeing what sticks, but I think you'll find more success with a more selective, precise approach.

bojanglesz
04-28-2014, 11:21 AM
Gwaer, if I was trying to stir up drama I would be posting much more prolifically about various issues. It is the number of blind apologists that puzzles me. Since I am not alone in refusing to accept 'it's a beta!' as a blanket immunity once you start accepting money it would be better to have a discussion about issues. Instead, we have this. Exciting, isn't it?

If you didn't want blind apologists, you've come to the wrong place. Leave while you still have your soul intact.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 11:22 AM
Gwaer, if I was trying to stir up drama I would be posting much more prolifically about various issues. It is the number of blind apologists that puzzles me. Since I am not alone in refusing to accept 'it's a beta!' as a blanket immunity once you start accepting money it would be better to have a discussion about issues. Instead, we have this. Exciting, isn't it?

You obviously don't understand the core concept of a beta. If there aren't bugs, it isn't a beta - money changing hands is absolutely irrelevant. Feel free to keep claiming that money changes things, but it doesn't, and I will sit here laughing at every post you make. :)

Gwaer
04-28-2014, 11:25 AM
Gwaer, if I was trying to stir up drama I would be posting much more prolifically about various issues. It is the number of blind apologists that puzzles me. Since I am not alone in refusing to accept 'it's a beta!' as a blanket immunity once you start accepting money it would be better to have a discussion about issues. Instead, we have this. Exciting, isn't it?
There ever very few blind apologists on these forums. We all have our crosses we think CZE could improve with. What we do have is a lot of rational reasonable people. Just because one or two other people agree with you that closed beta + money = release, just makes two or three people that are wrong.

Even more so, I have seen betas that take money and don't have a reimbursement policy, and instead have a buyer beware bugs happen policy. CZE takes an extremely fair approach and has promised reimbursement. Which in no way hiding behind beta.

GatticusFinch
04-28-2014, 11:25 AM
Now it all makes sense. I kept thinking "Why would anyone be upset about a monetized beta? Where have they been the past 5 years?"

So anything that has occurred in gaming in the past 5 years is suddenly off limits? Yay for microtransactions, on-disc DLC, online-only DRM checks, separate multiplayer codes, pay-to-win, etc.?

People are upset about a monetized beta for any number of reasons. Here are some: (1) they already paid for the development of the game with kickstarter, and are expecting all be developed before additional money starts changing hands, (2) issues still exist which impact the usage of purchased content and customer service has been at a "you'll get it back, someday" level, (3) turning on the primary revenue stream is not an incentive to continue working on the non-revenue or lower revenue content that was promised, (4) people who kickstarted this game for PvE are on the back burner while they work to get the revenue stream going.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 11:34 AM
Are people claiming this should be like release?

A couple.


when a company comes out with a "beta" that includes a working store where I can give them actual money without a wipe, it's no longer a beta.


if a company releases a monetized client the users have every right to hold the product to the same standards as any other full release.


Cash shop is open, I consider that a released game.

--------


I think people are saying, if you are going to be taking my money, I want something better than this.

CZE isn't taking our money. We are voluntarily giving CZE money during a beta. If we want something more stable before forking over money...just don't fork over the money yet? That's mostly what I'm doing. I spent a tiny amount to verify the store and VIP programs worked correctly and am holding off on further purchases until the bugs are ironed out a bit more. Cory isn't chasing us down dark alleys and relieving us of our wallets, after all. We spend only what we choose to spend.

The main point is that some people seem to have an absurd definition for a monetized beta, insisting it should be held to the same standards as a released game, and they are angry CZE isn't adhering to these definitions which exist only in their own minds.

I can understand being disappointed a beta has as many bugs as it does. I just don't think complaining, in the abstract, that the game isn't bug -free yet is likely to do much good. You could alternately have an interesting abstract (yet ultimately unfruitful) discussion about how many bugs is 'too many' for a beta. This will be a wildly subjective area in which every individual's opinion will differ, so the only actor who can decide when a game is ready for beta is really the developer.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 11:34 AM
(1) they already paid for the development of the game with kickstarter, and are expecting all be developed before additional money starts changing hands


CZE never, ever said that you would have a feature complete game before they offered paid transactions. This is a horrible assumption that people have made, and it is wrong.



(2) issues still exist which impact the usage of purchased content and customer service has been at a "you'll get it back, someday" level


Already above and beyond almost every other company that is in game development. This actually counts against your argument.



(3) turning on the primary revenue stream is not an incentive to continue working on the non-revenue or lower revenue content that was promised


This has me confused... Are you saying that now they have implemented real money transactions, they will slow down PvE development? Are you nuts? If they slow down at all, everyone will leave. They cannot risk slowing down development now, in fact they have increased incentive to finish the PvE content, because people are expecting it. If they don't deliver, their fanbase gets up and leaves. Nothing could be more crushing.




(4) people who kickstarted this game for PvE are on the back burner while they work to get the revenue stream going.

No, they aren't. The people who kickstarted already have a headstart, plus the very thing that CZE need to deliver most (PvE) has plenty of rewards attached. No-one is being neglected at all.

Really, why would you even think these things?

Rendakor
04-28-2014, 11:35 AM
If you don't think the game is worth additional money right now, don't buy any plat.

Malakili
04-28-2014, 11:36 AM
You obviously don't understand the core concept of a beta. If there aren't bugs, it isn't a beta - money changing hands is absolutely irrelevant. Feel free to keep claiming that money changes things, but it doesn't, and I will sit here laughing at every post you make. :)

This is really a fundamental difference in opinion then. I absolutely do not think that money changing hands is "irrelevant." Call the phase of development whatever you want, but when you're taking money from people - not in a pre-order, not in a investment kind of way - then you're at the very least complicating the situation.

I guess we can can sit around and discuss the philosophy of game design and get at what the "core concept" of beta really is. But for most people the more important thing is going to be the "core concept" of things costing their hard earned money.

Pezzle
04-28-2014, 11:38 AM
I am not the one suiting up to defend the position of the day. It's cool, you can tell me all day I don't understand, or it will be fine or this is how it is supposed to be. That makes you an apologist. I will borrow a bit from Mal. Once you start taking money, be it monetized or whatever label you like, my standards change. You can call me whatever you like, but it takes more than honeyed words to incite me into defending a product that does not yet meet my standard.

We can all be patient, that does not mean we have to be silent.

Rendakor
04-28-2014, 11:39 AM
For a game where a lot of us already spent several hundred dollars, why get upset when you can (optionally) spend a few more to buy packs? If they hadn't turnend tournaments off and were letting us hammer away at them in an awful, buggy state I could see an argument.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 11:39 AM
This is really a fundamental difference in opinion then. I absolutely do not think that money changing hands is "irrelevant." Call the phase of development whatever you want, but when you're taking money from people - not in a pre-order, not in a investment kind of way - then you're at the very least complicating the situation.

I guess we can can sit around and discuss the philosophy of game design and get at what the "core concept" of beta really is. But for most people the more important thing is going to be the "core concept" of things costing their hard earned money

Well, feel free not to give them any money. I am personally going to be dropping money in periodically, at the minimum for VIP. CZE earned my trust over the course of months, and I have not seen a reason to doubt them yet.

So I am going to savour my headstart while you squabble over the ins and outs of beta and how paying money is wrong, bla bla bla.

Malakili
04-28-2014, 11:47 AM
So I am going to savour my headstart while you squabble over the ins and outs of beta and how paying money is wrong, bla bla bla.


Wait, what? People in this thread were discussing issues they had with the launch of beta. Then other people came in trying to devalue their experience and opinion about it. So, you came in here to "squabble" when apparently you felt nothing was wrong and had nothing to actually contribute to the thread. Meanwhile, I've played a hell of a lot of games myself. So it isn't like we need to choose one or the other here.

If people didn't want to discuss the merits of going to beta, particularly one that lets you pay more, why would they come in this thread? The "if you don't want to, then don't pay" argument is specious at best. That's exactly what people are(n't) doing. That doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate discussion to be had. That is, if it didn't keep getting derailed by people who seem to think there is an objective answer to this question.

Rapkannibale
04-28-2014, 11:48 AM
From their Kickstarter "Risks and Challenges" section:

"With HEX, our goal is to create a brand new type of game, which includes inherent risk. Video game development is not easy. It can be difficult to predict the stumbling blocks even in the best case scenario, so with something as new and innovative as HEX, it can be even more difficult."

"Further game testing is of critical importance, and we have planned for a staggered beta phase that will allow us to polish the experience and catch all the bugs (this is will include both private and public testing)."

Did they chew off a bit too much than they can handle in the time frame they suggested? Yes and Cory has personally apologize for that several times but in the end it will make Hex a better game.

Really if you are now experiencing something you didn't expect then you either didn't read the risks and Challenges or you were just a bit too hopeful that everything would go right on their first try at making a game like Hex. You can fault them all you want for making Hex larger than they thought it would be but I don't think it's fair to complain that the closed beta that is is not the closed beta you envisioned in your head. They did all they could to manage people's expectations. If people chose to ignore that, we'll there is nothing CZE can do about that.

GatticusFinch
04-28-2014, 11:48 AM
I am not the one suiting up to defend the position of the day. It's cool, you can tell me all day I don't understand, or it will be fine or this is how it is supposed to be. That makes you an apologist. I will borrow a bit from Mal. Once you start taking money, be it monetized or whatever label you like, my standards change. You can call me whatever you like, but it takes more than honeyed words to incite me into defending a product that does not yet meet my standard.

We can all be patient, that does not mean we have to be silent.

If you aren't silent, a select few users with a combined 10,000 posts are going to astroturf your comments, call you an idiot, and then tell you your opinion is wrong.

frychikn
04-28-2014, 11:49 AM
A slight tip: when you are losing a debate, jumping directly to wild person insults doesn't really buttress your arguments all that well. It serves rather to confirm that your'e out of real arguments and must resort to insults in a vain attempt to get a rise.

An additional tip, gratis, is that you should probably refrain from questioning the education of others in a post full of spelling, capitalization, and grammatical errors.

(Aside: that arguing on a forum is considered 'online' not 'offline'.)

It's also much more rhetorically effective to refrain from childish and immature insults yourself if you wish to paint your opponents as immature. It might be tempting to try a kitchen sink approach, flinging all kinds of insults and seeing what sticks, but I think you'll find more success with a more selective, precise approach.

please continue to talk down to me, guy.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 11:49 AM
So anything that has occurred in gaming in the past 5 years is suddenly off limits? Yay for microtransactions, on-disc DLC, online-only DRM checks, separate multiplayer codes, pay-to-win, etc.?

Let me try an analogy: if a law is silly, you don't attack an individual for obeying the law. You get the law changed. I don't think those who are shocked, shocked that CZE is holding a monetized beta just like everyone else have much room to stand on. You may not like that CZE is doing a monetized beta but you shouldn't be shocked and surprised about it.

And no one said they were off limits. We simply pointed out what the prevailing industry standards are. Feel free to try to change them if you don't like them! Healthy industries rely on it. But until they have been changed, it's a bit much to fault CZE for going along with them as they currently exist.

It would be like car safety standards. They change all the time, but as long as a company is adhering to the standards as they are currently understood, you'll have a hard time arguing they are being uniquely cavalier with regard to consumer safety.


People are upset about a monetized beta for any number of reasons. Here are some: (1) they already paid for the development of the game with kickstarter, and are expecting all be developed before additional money starts changing hands

I backed the game via kickstarter and expected no such thing. That would be a completely bizarre expectation with no grounding in reality. I expect CZE to get as much additional money as they need to turn out the quality finished product they promised.



(2) issues still exist which impact the usage of purchased content and customer service has been at a "you'll get it back, someday" level

Yes. That's why it's part of beta. So it can be tested. How on earth is 'there are bugs in the purchased content experience' justify saying 'Gosh, we'd better not test it then'. As to the customer service point: better these bugs be discovered now with a vastly smaller playerbase in closed beta than in release, surely?


(3) turning on the primary revenue stream is not an incentive to continue working on the non-revenue or lower revenue content that was promised

I think this is backward: them getting a revenue stream turned on is more likely to lead to an expeditious development process for the non revenue content. Of course, I suppose they could be of such low moral character that they would 'take the money and run' but presumably you would never have backed such a pack of charlatans in the first place. It's not that earning money is so much an incentive to do things for free, as it is a necessary requirement. If CZE has no money I don't see how they are going to put out their free to play PvE segment.


(4) people who kickstarted this game for PvE are on the back burner while they work to get the revenue stream going.

As someone who backed primarily for PvE, this is true, but I also don't see how it could be any other way. CZE has to pay the bills and put food on the table. Them not having money is certainly not going to push PvE out any faster!!

Gwaer
04-28-2014, 11:50 AM
I am not the one suiting up to defend the position of the day. It's cool, you can tell me all day I don't understand, or it will be fine or this is how it is supposed to be. That makes you an apologist. I will borrow a bit from Mal. Once you start taking money, be it monetized or whatever label you like, my standards change. You can call me whatever you like, but it takes more than honeyed words to incite me into defending a product that does not yet meet my standard.

We can all be patient, that does not mean we have to be silent.

Being accurate is not being apologetic, also being troubled about something does not make you right. I can't count the number of times I've seen someone in a bad mood due to some other unrelated thing interpret an action that is not meant to harm or be insulting in the worst possible light. Perhaps you've been truly wronged by something CZE has done, it's possible. I know they've made some questionable choices in the past. But with hex they've been entirely straight shooters, and as long as that keeps up I don't see any reason to doubt that they'll do everything they can to fix any bugs that cause you to lose money during this beta.

Rapkannibale
04-28-2014, 11:53 AM
We can all be patient, that does not mean we have to be silent.

Exactly. So why should people arguing the other side be?

b1uepenguin
04-28-2014, 11:53 AM
tl;dr (23 pages omg...)

The OP's expectations were too high. Closed Beta is not fit for public consumption; hence the name. I didn't play Alpha because while I love sausage, I don't want to spend all my time in the sausage factory when I could be somewhere else drinking beer. If you aren't ready to deal with bugs and servers down and things crashing from time to time, then beta is not for you (in fact its why I usually avoid them until towards the end).

Pezzle
04-28-2014, 11:54 AM
Being accurate is not being apologetic, also being troubled about something does not make you right. I can't count the number of times I've seen someone in a bad mood due to some other unrelated thing interpret an action that is not meant to harm or be insulting in the worst possible light. Perhaps you've been truly wronged by something CZE has done, it's possible. I know they've made some questionable choices in the past. But with hex they've been entirely straight shooters, and as long as that keeps up I don't see any reason to doubt that they'll do everything they can to fix any bugs that cause you to lose money during this beta.

Funny thing about opinions..

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 11:55 AM
Wait, what? People in this thread were discussing issues they had with the launch of beta. Then other people came in trying to devalue their experience and opinion about it. So, you came in here to "squabble" when apparently you felt nothing was wrong and had nothing to actually contribute to the thread. Meanwhile, I've played a hell of a lot of games myself. So it isn't like we need to choose one or the other here.

If people didn't want to discuss the merits of going to beta, particularly one that lets you pay more, why would they come in this thread? The "if you don't want to, then don't pay" argument is specious at best. That's exactly what people are(n't) doing. That doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate discussion to be had. That is, if it didn't keep getting derailed by people who seem to think there is an objective answer to this question.

But the discussion is ridiculous. Thats the entire point - everyone one one side is saying that beta came too soon, we needed less features, and money should not change hands. Yet the empirical evidence is building daily that you are absolutely wrong on all points. And that is why the other camp is arguing - because you are being silly. Completely silly.

Mark my words, 2 weeks into beta, almost every 'issue' you have had in these past few days will be resolved and you wont have a single thing to complain about. And I bet you still will be here, flag waving and arguing that CZE was wrong.

So, I refer you back to my statement, since the argument is going nowhere: either pay and play, and enjoy your time. Or don't. Just stop bitching about things you cannot change.

GatticusFinch
04-28-2014, 11:57 AM
Exactly. So why should people arguing the other side be?

The people arguing the other side are astroturfing every negative opinion someone holds about the game, personally belittling and attacking them for thinking otherwise. It wasn't "I disagree," it was "fuck you, you're wrong, let me post that 50 times."

CZE doesn't need people white knighting them, and it is pretty obvious it is the same few people doing it over and over and over, in every thread that has anything negative suggested about Hex.

Malakili
04-28-2014, 11:59 AM
Exactly. So why should people arguing the other side be?

What "other side"?

This thread has been "This hasn't met my expectations."

Met with:

"No you're wrong to feel that way."

I'm not saying anyone who is 100% satisfied is wrong to feel that way. No one is that I've seen. But for some reason there are some people telling unsatisfied people that they are wrong to feel that way.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 12:01 PM
What "other side"?

This thread has been "This hasn't met my expectations."

Met with:

"No you're wrong to feel that way."

I'm not saying anyone who is 100% satisfied is wrong to feel that way. No one is that I've seen. But for some reason there are some people telling unsatisfied people that they are wrong to feel that way.

Don't go misquoting us here - we said your expectations were too high.

To be a little crude, it is like a virgin watching tons of high class porn, and then being disappointed when their first time didn't measure up. They were simply wrong to expect so much - that doesn't mean the experience couldn't be enjoyed for what it was.

nicosharp
04-28-2014, 12:02 PM
Everyone is entitled to feel how they want about it. I know for me, I am a bit dissatisfied as well.
Let me lay out why:

The game is playable and is super fun. The starter decks are well designed and fun to play..

Draft is not available, so I am forced to challenge the AI and friends
My friends all netted a ton more primal than I did, and thus have more powerful decks
Due to me trying to compete at a competent level, and not having draft as a equal playing field, I feel obligated to open packs to compete at a slightly higher level in constructed with friends
My play is diminished because no matter how many packs I throw away, I can not net legendary because apparently my account is flagged for shitty luck
Some nut jobs are playing blood control already that immediately counter all the starter decks. ::cryface::
Not being able to be competitive with friends, or even the AI feather floating down river azzhat has made it difficult to enjoy the experience.
I need draft enabled to feel vindicated and equally matched with others and to slowly increase my constructed options so I can later compete there as well.


All in all, this last week I've logged more time playing than probably my entire alpha experience. The game is so much better, but until tourney's are fully functioning and stop crashing, I see this as a cruel joke that is creating an annoying social impulsiveness to get kickstarters to open packs in a way they never intended to.

Malakili
04-28-2014, 12:03 PM
Well, Gwaer has pretty much been calling people objectively wrong this entire thread, at least.

Gwaer
04-28-2014, 12:06 PM
What "other side"?

This thread has been "This hasn't met my expectations."

Met with:

"No you're wrong to feel that way."

I'm not saying anyone who is 100% satisfied is wrong to feel that way. No one is that I've seen. But for some reason there are some people telling unsatisfied people that they are wrong to feel that way.

No, this thread has been mostly 'betas can't take money, and still be allowed to have major game breaking beta problems, if they take money they are as good as release to me'. You specifically may not have been saying that, but it is the majority of what has been said lately, and the point I'm most offended by that is factually wrong on all counts.

You out can be dissatisfied with a beta all you want. No one is supposed to be happy with a beta, there should be game breaking issues, being involved in an early beta is a labor of love.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 12:07 PM
I will borrow a bit from Mal. Once you start taking money, be it monetized or whatever label you like, my standards change.

Well, yeah. My standards for a product I have backed on KS are MUCH higher than my standards for such products I don't back. But CZE started taking money a year ago. Our standards changed a year ago. What is causing this new outcry?

What I don't get is people, say, spending $250 to KS the game and then saying that when they spend another $4 in the store EVERYTHING CHANGES now money has switched hands SHIT IS GETTING REAL.

Why on earth would that change your standards?

Especially when the tiny $4 purchase is entirely optional.

I feel like the cash shop rubs some people the wrong way (dislike of microtransactions? Fears of being DLC nickle an dimed to death?) so they argue against it without articulating what they want or what CZE should do differently or how this would help them.

As far as I can tell, a working, bug free cash shop is nothing but a good thing for the games prospects. To get there, we have to test the cash shop in beta.


, that does not mean we have to be silent.

We're not asking you to be silent, we're asking you to be informed :)


The people arguing the other side are literally astroturfing every negative opinion someone holds about the game, personally belittling and attacking them for thinking otherwise. It wasn't "I disagree," it was "fuck you, you're wrong, let me post that 50 times."

First of all, the most flagrant (if not the only?) personal attacks have come from frychikn.

Secondly, it's not at all true that every negative opinion about the game is being attacked. For example: I hold the negative opinion that Cory severely over-promised in the kickstarter and set out a very misleading release date that left a lot of people disappointed when it wasn't even close to being met. I think they dramatically overestimated their ability to create a digital game and as a result the hex development process has suffered.

Now, if your thesis is true, these people you complain about will descend upon me and belittle me and attack me. But that's not what's going to happen, because that's not what has been happening.

A handful of people putting forth a clearly incorrect statement (monetized beta is the same thing as release and should be held to the same standard) have been corrected. This apparently kicked their persecution complex into high gear.

There's a huge difference between saying "This beta is buggier than I would like', as Malakili does (and who can argue against that? It's simply stating a personal preference, and one that I share) and saying "A monetized beta is the same thing as release, therefore we should demand that Hex's beta be held to the same standards as a release", which is what the vast bulk of the posts in this thread lately have been addressing.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 12:09 PM
Well, Gwaer has pretty much been calling people objectively wrong this entire thread, at least.

The thing he (and I) have been calling out as objectively wrong, that monetized beta is the same as release, is objectively wrong.

I don't think anyone has said anyone is objectively wrong for deciding the game is too buggy to spend money in the store.

Pezzle
04-28-2014, 12:11 PM
What?

Maybe your expectations are too low? Do you see where that type of discussion leads? Several people have pointed out specific issues only to get 'it's a beta' or 'you don't understand' etc as general responses. Maybe we do understand. Maybe hand-waving discourages discussion. Maybe reasonable opinions are not insane. Maybe you don't get to tell me my opinion on the state of things is wrong based on your own subjective reasoning. But lets go around again, I mean, why not?

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 12:15 PM
You out can be dissatisfied with a beta all you want. No one is supposed to be happy with a beta, there should be game breaking issues, being involved in an early beta is a labor of love.

Hey, I am almost 99% satisfied, and give it a week and that will be 100% :)

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 12:17 PM
Several people have pointed out specific issues only to get 'it's a beta' or 'you don't understand' etc as general responses.

Do you have an example of such a specific issue and the accompanying responses?
Do you have an example of what you would have liked people to do instead of pointing out that it's a beta? I assume if you find bugs you are putting them in the bug report forum. Past that I'm not sure what you expect fellow forum goers to be able to do...

I see no reason why people who point out issues should be upset when other people point out that it's a beta.


you don't get to tell me my opinion on the state of things is wrong

In my opinion, I do!

Gwaer
04-28-2014, 12:19 PM
Hey, I am almost 99% satisfied, and give it a week and that will be 100% :)
You're also weird.

bojanglesz
04-28-2014, 12:19 PM
Hey, I am almost 99% satisfied, and give it a week and that will be 100% :)

Hence why your opinion must be taken with 99 gallons of salt ;-P

GatticusFinch
04-28-2014, 12:22 PM
Secondly, it's not at all true that every negative opinion about the game is being attacked. For example: I hold the negative opinion that Cory severely over-promised in the kickstarter and set out a very misleading release date that left a lot of people disappointed when it wasn't even close to being met. I think they dramatically overestimated their ability to create a digital game and as a result the hex development process has suffered.

Now, if your thesis is true, these people you complain about will descend upon me and belittle me and attack me. But that's not what's going to happen, because that's not what has been happening.

That's not what is happening because that happened eight months ago. Trust me, I was there, and yes, people absolutely jumped all over everyone.

You know what the best way to test a cash shop is? Give everyone access to a fake credit card number and let them go ham on it. They absolutely did not need to give out rewards and turn the shop on live to test all this stuff as people have been claiming.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 12:25 PM
You're also weird.

I really am. That's common knowledge though, right? :D

But I think I should elaborate a little - been through the whole alpha (give or take a few weeks before I got in). I have seen all the progress, and all the fixes. I have seen the servers go from spotty on a good day, to near flawless. I know exactly what CZE can do based on what has been done in a fairly short amount of time. I have no concerns about what has happened so far in beta (I was bummed about the downtime, but I am in no way surprised) and I am excited for the first official patch.

I am more content now than I should be, sure, but I have my rewards, I can foresee the speed and skill in fixing things in the coming weeks. Perhaps if I could share my thoughts clearly, it would satiate all these upset people, but I don't think I can ever explain my exact feelings in a way that everyone would understand.

TL;DR I am feeling confident. And I have a good reason for the seemingly 'blind faith' I hold. I am not blind - I am just a good judge of talent, and CZE has it in spades.

Vorpal
04-28-2014, 12:28 PM
You know what the best way to test a cash shop is? Give everyone access to a fake credit card number and let them go ham on it.

Which games with cash shops have only tested them this way?

Rapkannibale
04-28-2014, 12:28 PM
You know what the best way to test a cash shop is? Give everyone access to a fake credit card number and let them go ham on it. They absolutely did not need to give out rewards and turn the shop on live to test all this stuff as people have been claiming.

Can you give me an example where your suggested method has been used? I've been working with microtransactions for 8 years and the companies that did have these type of fake credit cards only handed the number out on a need basis. I'm pretty sure handing out fake credit card numbers to thousands of people not employed by the company is not the best way to test this.

To your other point, do you really think there would have been no complaints if CZE had gone into closed beta without handing out any rewards? Really?

GatticusFinch
04-28-2014, 12:28 PM
Which games with cash shops have only tested them this way?

Off the top of my head? Guild Wars 2, which certainly had a much larger player base than Hex does.

GatticusFinch
04-28-2014, 12:32 PM
To your other point, do you really think there would have been no complaints if CZE had gone into closed beta without handing out any rewards? Really?

I do. I had literally zero expectations of having KS rewards delivered in closed beta. None. I had no expectation of getting them in open beta. The only expectation I had was that I would get them all at release when all the content was ready to go.

I fully expected closed beta to be an improved alpha with a fake shop, full cards available for testing, and a complete wipe when it went into open beta. For everyone saying "lol it's beta," THAT is what a beta is. A test, not a "well, this part is live with no wipes, this part isn't live at all, this part doesn't work, etc."

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 12:33 PM
Off the top of my head? Guild Wars 2, which certainly had a much larger player base than Hex does.

Got any more? A single case means nothing if there are hundreds against it. And were those fake credit card numbers given to everyone in beta? If not, toss that one out the window right now, because it doesn't count.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 12:35 PM
I do. I had literally zero expectations of having KS rewards delivered in closed beta. None. I had no expectation of getting them in open beta. The only expectation I had was that I would get them all at release when all the content was ready to go.

I fully expected closed beta to be an improved alpha with a fake shop, full cards available for testing, and a complete wipe when it went into open beta. For everyone saying "lol it's beta," THAT is what a beta is. A test, not a "well, this part is live with no wipes, this part isn't live at all, this part doesn't work, etc."

So again, it is your expectations that are the problem. CZE was a little tight lipped about a few features, but they were very clear about giving out rewards in beta. They never specifically said that transactions would be available, but it is easily inferred because of the rewards portion.

None of this was difficult to figure out.

Gwaer
04-28-2014, 12:36 PM
I was in several closed gw2 betas, I didn't receive a fake credit card number. The only real test I even remember was the one where you got a bunch of gems for attaching a real credit card, but you weren't required to buy anything with that real credit card. Also the number of participants in those betas were far less than in hex. hex is actually the largest alpha and first beta I have ever heard of.

GatticusFinch
04-28-2014, 12:38 PM
Got any more? A single case means nothing if there are hundreds against it. And were those fake credit card numbers given to everyone in beta? If not, toss that one out the window right now, because it doesn't count.

They were given to every single person and told them specifically to use them on the store.

I'm shocked the example refuting your position suddenly "doesn't count."