PDA

View Full Version : Platinun Purchase Question



Kramer
04-26-2014, 05:54 PM
Currently I play Might and Magic Duel of Champions (MMDOC), Solforge, Hearthstone and now Hex and I just have one major complaint about Hex and that is platinum pricing. Why is it in that all other DTCG's the price of real money currency gives greater value the more you spend but in Hex it is quite the opposite. For example, it is cheaper to buy 500 platinum 20 times for $99.80 to get 10,000 than it is to buy 10,000 for $99.99. I know it is a pain to spend all that time to save 19 cents but I was hoping for greater value the more you spend. Usually you gain more value, for examples:

Solforge:

$4.99= 1,300 gold
$9.99= 2,750 gold
$19.99= 5,600 gold
$49.99= 14,400 gold
$99.99= 30,000 gold

MMDOC:

$4.99 - 250 seals
$14.99 - 850 seals
$29.99 - 1800 seals
$49.99 - 3200 seals
$99.99 - 7,000 seals

Hearthstone:

$2.99 - 2 packs
$9.99 - 7 packs
$19.00 - 15 packs
$49.99 - 40 packs

Now I know I am very new to this game but why do you not gain value the more you buy. I recently read a thread that people want higher values ($250 and $500) but no mention of gaining more value. I understand the thought of keeping all packs at $2 each but at least throw in 1 primal pack at $49.99 and 3 primal packs at $99.99 or at least gain a better value than 500 platinum per $5 spent no matter how much you spend.

Just my 2 cents opinion. What do others think?

Kami
04-26-2014, 05:55 PM
The reason you don't gain more value is because then it favours people who can spend more. The whole basis is to level the playing field and keep everything even otherwise market pricing will fluctuate like crazy (i.e. inflation).

Daer
04-26-2014, 05:57 PM
None of the other games allow trading do they? In a game allowing trading you have to keep the value of the currency constant.

Kramer
04-26-2014, 06:00 PM
Kami, then why do all other similar games price it differently? I believe it is to entice players to spend more money so the game goes on for a longer period of time. Without players paying these games fail.

Solforge will allow trading by end of year. The other 3 games all have a type of merchant that allows you to trade in your cards for in game currency to purchase new cards (Legendary of your choice) or packs depending on the game. This allows you to get rid of excess common, uncommon, rare, epics and legends.

Shaqattaq
04-26-2014, 06:18 PM
HEX will have an auction house where players can sell and trade their cards with individual players. Not just trade-- outright sell for platinum. For that to work, we have to maintain the consistency within the platinum prices.

Voormas
04-26-2014, 07:04 PM
Also those other games are trying to push the "free to play" thing in the typical scummy way where they end up taking advantage of a small percentage of players who massively outspend everyone else in order to "win" the game; http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195806/chasing_the_whale_examining_the_.php?print=1

mach
04-26-2014, 08:51 PM
If there are no quantity discounts, why are there only discrete purchasing options?

I mean, if I want to buy exactly 1337 platinum, I should be able to.

Gwaer
04-26-2014, 08:57 PM
If there are no quantity discounts, why are there only discrete purchasing options?

I mean, if I want to buy exactly 1337 platinum, I should be able to.


This I agree with entirely. They can have their popular options, but there should be a place where I can type in that I want X plat, and it will say that costs Y gold, and then I can buy it. Maybe one day.

Cory_Jones
04-26-2014, 11:07 PM
There will NEVER be a volume discount on platinum, we have to maintain a strong baseline for the economy if we want your virtual collectables to hold value. Also the set amounts have to do with the payment gateways, the rules and regulations that surround selling a virtual currency in multiple international markets simultaneously is... Well pretty f.ing complex, and the rules are very specific. :)

Kroan
04-26-2014, 11:42 PM
You forgot MTGO ;)

$4 = 1 pack
$8 = 2 packs
$12 = 3 packs
$40 = 10 packs
$80 = 20 packs
$400 = 100 packs
... ect, ect, ect.

I often see the prices of SolForge not as "gaining more value the more I buy" but rather as "gaining less value the less I spend"

Gorgol
04-27-2014, 12:41 AM
Yeah, when I see that its like, well, if I don't spend at LEAST X, then I am just losing out and wasting money and it makes me less inclined to buy any at all. Which is why I like that Hex, if I spend $5 I get the same ratio of value for my money as if I spent $100. I'm less obligated to make 1 large purchase, and instead can make many smaller ones.

Khazrakh
04-27-2014, 12:57 AM
I often see the prices of SolForge not as "gaining more value the more I buy" but rather as "gaining less value the less I spend"

This really sums it up perfectly - it's not that you get a better deal for buying more, you actually get a worse deal for buying less.

If you buy the 30.000 gold for 100$ then 1$ equals 300 gold.
If you buy the 1.300 gold for 5$ then 1$ equals 260 gold.

So every time you buy the smallest amount you are loosing ~13% value!

BlackRoger
04-27-2014, 07:01 AM
One of the TCGs I thought of putting money in was Rise of Mythos.
In Rise if you put in around 150$ you permanently get the ability to buy better packs (which ofc cost more).

Since I did not want to buy lesser packs, I was left with the options of paying 150 or nothing at all.
I decided this was an evil scheme and walked away.

An extreme example of the results of mass purchase promotions.

mach
04-29-2014, 05:48 AM
There will NEVER be a volume discount on platinum, we have to maintain a strong baseline for the economy if we want your virtual collectables to hold value.

What about the VIP program discount, then? What's going to stop people from buying VIP on a large number of accounts, driving down the price of packs to around $1?

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 05:50 AM
What about the VIP program discount, then? What's going to stop people from buying VIP on a large number of accounts, driving down the price of packs to around $1?

Because you need a separate paypal/credit card per account. It is already in place as far as I can tell. So you would need 20 credit cards to get 20 $1 boosters.

mach
04-29-2014, 05:57 AM
Because you need a separate paypal/credit card per account. It is already in place as far as I can tell. So you would need 20 credit cards to get 20 $1 boosters.

Does using the same number for multiple accounts not work?

Even so, getting 20 credit card numbers isn't that hard. You don't need 20 actual cards. Some CC companies offer you one time use numbers.

I remember a while back we were discussing the new user packages and the multiple accounts problem was given as the reason they couldn't offer a generous one-time bundle for new users.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 05:59 AM
Does using the same number for multiple accounts not work?

Even so, getting 20 credit card numbers isn't that hard. You don't need 20 actual cards. Some CC companies offer you one time use numbers.

I remember a while back we were discussing the new user packages and the multiple accounts problem was given as the reason they couldn't offer a generous one-time bundle for new users.

Well, there are currently enough limits in place to make it very difficult to abuse VIP. And if someone is caught, they will be banned, IIRC.

zadies
04-29-2014, 06:01 AM
They stated that there would be consequences for abusing the vip program in the way your describing, which is why you would need multiple credit cards and email address to actually attempt to avoid detection though they would have the ability to watch where the packs and money eventually end up.

ossuary
04-29-2014, 06:02 AM
CZE specifically said during the KS campaign and early development that they would not allow people to "farm" the VIP program by taking the packs / cards from multiple accounts using the VIP and funneling them all to a single or very small number of accounts. It's meant to be a one per person perk. If someone tried to make 50 accounts and funnel those cards for resale and profit, that kind of behavior would show recognizable markers in their database, and they would take action against it. Continually abusing the generosity of the VIP program in that was, we were warned, is a bannable offense.

Indormi
04-29-2014, 06:06 AM
CZE specifically said during the KS campaign and early development that they would not allow people to "farm" the VIP program by taking the packs / cards from multiple accounts using the VIP and funneling them all to a single or very small number of accounts. It's meant to be a one per person perk. If someone tried to make 50 accounts and funnel those cards for resale and profit, that kind of behavior would show recognizable markers in their database, and they would take action against it. Continually abusing the generosity of the VIP program in that was, we were warned, is a bannable offense.
They said that it was more than bannable, they said you were getting the ban hammer. 0 tolerancy to cheaters/exploiters.

mach
04-29-2014, 06:13 AM
CZE specifically said during the KS campaign and early development that they would not allow people to "farm" the VIP program by taking the packs / cards from multiple accounts using the VIP and funneling them all to a single or very small number of accounts. It's meant to be a one per person perk. If someone tried to make 50 accounts and funnel those cards for resale and profit, that kind of behavior would show recognizable markers in their database, and they would take action against it. Continually abusing the generosity of the VIP program in that was, we were warned, is a bannable offense.

AFAIK this kind of thing is really hard to detect when the people know what they're doing. But if they're confidant that they can do so, I think we need to revisit the discussion about offering a generous one-time starter package.

Additionally, I am not sure that you even need people abusing the system to cause problems. If packs go for significantly over $1 on the open market, many players will sign up for VIP just to resell the packs at a small profit. This will exert downward market pressure on pack prices.

ossuary
04-29-2014, 06:41 AM
Do you really think a couple of hundred or even thousand people selling 1 pack a week is going to make a significant dent on average price? When you consider that the AH is going to have transaction fees, and those packs will still ultimately end up in the hands of someone who opens or uses them, if they change hands multiple times, it actually makes CZE MORE money, not less. Tournaments will also be producing a steady flow of cheaper-than-$2 boosters, so any amount bought for half cost from VIP are going to be a drop in the bucket compared to that. The price will equalize based on whatever price the free market will bear, regardless.

mach
04-29-2014, 06:50 AM
Do you really think a couple of hundred or even thousand people selling 1 pack a week is going to make a significant dent on average price? When you consider that the AH is going to have transaction fees, and those packs will still ultimately end up in the hands of someone who opens or uses them, if they change hands multiple times, it actually makes CZE MORE money, not less. Tournaments will also be producing a steady flow of cheaper-than-$2 boosters, so any amount bought for half cost from VIP are going to be a drop in the bucket compared to that. The price will equalize based on whatever price the free market will bear, regardless.

I'm not saying that VIP packs alone will drop the price from $2 to $1 (unless there's substantial abuse of the system, which I don't think is unlikely). But it will reduce the price somewhat.

As for transaction fees on the AH, I doubt they will be significant. If they are, people will just use manual trading instead.

Kami
04-29-2014, 07:36 AM
You also have to remember that buying packs from AH (even at a discount) will guarantee it to not be a primal pack UNLESS you buy a primal pack directly.

The question is more: "Will I spend less buying a primal pack (with guaranteed rares/legendaries) or buying discounted packs or buying direct packs and hoping for a primal pack?"

If discounted packs is what the majority will buy, that will likely drive the prices of primal packs sky-high (since you also have better chest quality luck with primals).

There's a dichotomy at play already and it's too early to tell how it will affect the pricing of either. It may not even be worth buying packs off AH at a discount since you have 0% chance of primals.

Yoss
04-29-2014, 09:24 AM
Mach (and others), you may find the following thread of use relative to this conversation:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=34329

Will VIP lower the market price of a basic booster? Yes. By how much? Probably not much, but it doesn't matter. Here's why:

The important thing to realize is that, economically speaking, CZE is NOT in the business of selling boosters to players. They sell platinum, and cards and boosters solely exist as a means of getting people to spend platinum on tournament entry fees.
I encourage you to read the entire thread, and especially Dave's posts.

dogmod
04-29-2014, 09:27 AM
Mach (and others), you may find the following thread of use relative to this conversation:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=34329

Will VIP lower the market price of a basic booster? Yes. By how much? Probably not much, but it doesn't matter. Here's why:

I encourage you to read the entire thread, and especially Dave's posts.

But the cost of boosters will directly correlate with the cost of cards which will directly correlate with the value of our collections into which a large number of people have already invested. Regardless of CZE making money or not our collections will be impacted by their decisions so you can't just say "Whatever happens its okay cause CZE will make money!"

Yoss
04-29-2014, 09:45 AM
If you go read the full quote, Dave talks about that as well. In short, you're somewhat right. The publisher needs to balance customer value retention against ease of access, but we already knew that, right? Also, the only real threat is if CZE changes the value system. It doesn't matter that the value is X or Y for a booster. What matters is that the rules are stable so that collectors feel safe investing. What matters is that value is not destroyed by a sudden CZE promotion that lowers all prices by 20% on the AH. As long as all discounted offers are predictably offered and no new ones created, life is good. Since VIP has been advertised as part of the scheme from day 1, I don't see a problem.

dogmod
04-29-2014, 09:58 AM
If you go read the full quote, Dave talks about that as well. In short, you're somewhat right. The publisher needs to balance customer value retention against ease of access, but we already knew that, right? Also, the only real threat is if CZE changes the value system. It doesn't matter that the value is X or Y for a booster. What matters is that the rules are stable so that collectors feel safe investing. What matters is that value is not destroyed by a sudden CZE promotion that lowers all prices by 20% on the AH. As long as all discounted offers are predictably offered and no new ones created, life is good. Since VIP has been advertised as part of the scheme from day 1, I don't see a problem.

The problem is the same problem that has been their since day one. Gaming the VIP system and whether it is A. profitable and B. feasible. And by feasible I mean not only just chinese farmers on a large scale but the general game population on a small scale.

Until it is proven that this won't happen it is a valid concern. A concern that CZE has stated they feel confident in having addressed but we will see when the rubber meets the road.

Easiest way to stop people from gaming the system: Make VIP packs untradeable.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 10:03 AM
The problem is the same problem that has been their since day one. Gaming the VIP system and whether it is A. profitable and B. feasible. And by feasible I mean not only just chinese farmers on a large scale but the general game population on a small scale.

Until it is proven that this won't happen it is a valid concern. A concern that CZE has stated they feel confident in having addressed but we will see when the rubber meets the road.

Easiest way to stop people from gaming the system: Make VIP packs untradeable.

And the contents? It wouldn't have to be used for draft to be profitable, so those boosters would still devalue the cost of singles. And you cannot start adding BOA singles outside of the free starter.

dogmod
04-29-2014, 10:07 AM
And the contents? It wouldn't have to be used for draft to be profitable, so those boosters would still devalue the cost of singles. And you cannot start adding BOA singles outside of the free starter.

You can, I would not go that direction. My expectation is that opened packs values will be as near to one dollar that large scale exploitation of the system would not be profitable or have a large effect. That is my intuition which may not be correct. I would just make them untradeable/AH and let people draft or open them and produce cards that are tradeable.

LLCoolDave
04-29-2014, 10:10 AM
And the contents? It wouldn't have to be used for draft to be profitable, so those boosters would still devalue the cost of singles. And you cannot start adding BOA singles outside of the free starter.

I doubt the average pack opened will be worth more than $1 in secondary market value so opening a VIP booster is not in itself a profitable endeavor.

Xavon
05-01-2014, 08:16 PM
Having just looked into buying platinum, and then sought out a thread like this, here is my 2 GP.

I don't necessarily care that Platinum does not become cheaper the more you buy. I would be happy if it did; and for another example of a game that does just that, I point to the entirely optional Cartel Credits in Star Wars: The Old Republic. I am a subscriber to that game, and I still occasionally buy CCs for the extras they can get me.

My complaint is that Platinum is more expensive to buy in bulk. Its a severe disincentive to me, knowing that I either have to waste money or time to build up a supply of Platinum to buy packs or enter tourneys.

Why not just have it be $4.99 per 500 Plat, in as many increments the the player wants?

ossuary
05-01-2014, 08:22 PM
I cannot believe people are still complaining about 1 CENT per $5. That is so ludicrous. If it really matters that much to you, feel free to buy your plat $4.99 at a time, for the next several hours.

mach
05-01-2014, 08:25 PM
I cannot believe people are still complaining about 1 CENT per $5. That is so ludicrous. If it really matters that much to you, feel free to buy your plat $4.99 at a time, for the next several hours.

It irks me a bit that they're using such a blatant psychological ploy ($4.99 seems much cheaper than $5.) But since pretty much everyone does it these days I can't really blame them.

Gwaer
05-01-2014, 08:32 PM
If they're sticking with the pricing scheme they have, including the discount to 4.99 they really do need to scale that 1c so that higher price tiers account for it at the same rate. I know it's stupid, and minor and doesn't really matter. But if they're going to use marketing stuff like this it does need to be consistent.

Xavon
05-01-2014, 08:51 PM
I cannot believe people are still complaining about 1 CENT per $5. That is so ludicrous. If it really matters that much to you, feel free to buy your plat $4.99 at a time, for the next several hours.

I can't believe some people don't understand how 1 CENT here and there can add up. And how cheap people can be. And how a practice that essentially ripping off people, even for tiny amounts, can erode a customer base.

If you went to McDonalds and they said they were going to charge you penny extra if you bought two hamburgers, or a dime extra for five, you probably would not stand for that.

And even worse, since any company pays a small fee per credit card transaction, this actually hurts them. If I buy 500 Plat twenty times, to save that $0.19 (which, for the record, would take at most minutes, not hours), Cryptozoic make even less money.

Gorgol
05-01-2014, 09:45 PM
This thread makes it very clear why America will never get rid of the damn penny. :mad:
If you make $7/hr that is $0.11 a minute. You would rather spend 3-5 minutes making 20 purchases to save $0.19 than just deal with it?

DoctorJoe
05-02-2014, 04:28 AM
Your wage is less of a determinant of how you should value your free time than the amount of free time you have is.

As an example, when I made $7/hr I would spend inordinate amounts of time to save ridiculously small amounts of money because I had a lot more time and a lot less money.

Now I have a bit more money and considerably less time. I wouldn't think twice about spending 20 cents to save five minutes, but should I really have to?

Slightly off topic: Man, if my younger self knew that getting to the point that I could buy a box of boosters regularly without having to give up too much, but at the cost of being able to play much much less, would he have done it?

Poetic
05-02-2014, 04:44 AM
IPennies are the worst. When I usually get change I toss the pennies and keep the rest. I'm not going to stress losing a few cents by buying larger quantity.

AstaSyneri
05-02-2014, 06:06 AM
There is no free time :(.

Anyways - the pricing scheme Hex employs is about the fairest I have yet to see - especially with all the goodies attached to it that rarely enter the discussion. If you have an about 1:15 chance to get a Primal, on average you get the same value again that the boosters had (another 15 legendaries and rares - who cares about uncommons and commons after a while?). Plus you have the chests.

The VIP scheme is good (and everybody should buy into it) - and very hard to abuse, the numbers simply are not scaleable without producing significant external cost (man-hours, most likely).

Summary: You can happily buy your boosters in the CZE store (Preferably with less higher-value purchases rather than many lower-value ones to reduce the transaction cost for CZE), where you get a great value and CZE gets the most out of it to make the game even better. Everything else is plainly a second best option.

mach
05-02-2014, 07:02 AM
Anyways - the pricing scheme Hex employs is about the fairest I have yet to see - especially with all the goodies attached to it that rarely enter the discussion. If you have an about 1:15 chance to get a Primal, on average you get the same value again that the boosters had (another 15 legendaries and rares - who cares about uncommons and commons after a while?). Plus you have the chests.


Those don't actually add value, just variance. Imagine if each pack had 100% chance to give you a primal. Would that add value? Nope. You get 16 times as many rares/legendaries, but that will cause each to be worth a lot less.

It's the same deal with the current system. The extra supply from primals will reduce the value of each non-primal pack. So you have a large chance of losing slightly over a system without primals and a small chance of winning big.

Yoss
05-02-2014, 09:27 AM
Those don't actually add value, just variance. Imagine if each pack had 100% chance to give you a primal. Would that add value? Nope. You get 16 times as many rares/legendaries, but that will cause each to be worth a lot less.

It's the same deal with the current system. The extra supply from primals will reduce the value of each non-primal pack. So you have a large chance of losing slightly over a system without primals and a small chance of winning big.

Stop talking sense. This is the internet. :p