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View Full Version : Will Boosters or Platinum Ever go UP in $?



Shivdaddy
04-27-2014, 04:48 PM
How long will it be until we get a bump in "MSRP" on one of these items? Most likely boosters since 100 plat for $1 is pretty clean. The game is super cheap as it is and a bumping packs to $2.50 seems very doable, especially if they want to grab more VIP subscribers.

Gwaer
04-27-2014, 04:52 PM
It's possible but unlikely. I'd love to see a price increase just to be safe. But I'm definitely in the minority on that. I doubt CZE will up the price if they can possibly help it. It'd be better for them to break their other promises and come up with some things to sell in their store.

Niedar
04-27-2014, 04:52 PM
Not sure if serious? Maybe with inflation in 10 years, that is a 25% increase in price. I sure hope boosters don't go up in price.

Shivdaddy
04-27-2014, 05:10 PM
Not sure if serious? Maybe with inflation in 10 years, that is a 25% increase in price. I sure hope boosters don't go up in price.

Your not very smart.

I am with you Gwaer on being for a price increase sometime in the next year or 2.

Daer
04-27-2014, 05:37 PM
*You're

regomar
04-27-2014, 05:54 PM
Your not very smart.


I startled my dog I laughed so loud.

Protip: When telling someone that they're not smart, it helps to not make a basic spelling mistake that's notorious for being a calling card of the intellectually deficient.

Also, why on Earth are people in favor of price increases? Half the reason I was drawn to this game was that it is roughly half the price of Magic. They start increasing the prices and I won't be the only one that moves on to something else. Seriously, who in their right mind demands to pay MORE for something? Weird stuff...

Zomnivore
04-27-2014, 06:42 PM
They will most certainly will.

They want to be as fair as possible but also give themselves enough room to be reasonable for their bottom line.

Then there's the thing with money's value itself going up and down. They will at some point have to raise pack prices above 2$ maybe not by a lot, but certainly enough so that things that effect the market don't sink them.

Who knows though, maybe they won't. Maybe they'll add even more new different revenue streams.

I'm just saying its certainly possible.

I don't think CZE has to break their promises about exclusives or selling kickstarter buffs.

I do want them to sell expansions to boost the pve side of things, but if they think they don't have to and that would be caustic...maybe they can do something else.

I think they don't even have to get close to going in that direction they have A LOT of room to do things to add revenue streams.

There's a market out there for cosmetics, and once keeps come in maybe they do things with revenue there, or what have you.

Lots of new spaces to explore and a lot of those spaces can be monetized in agreeable ways.

fido_one
04-27-2014, 06:52 PM
*You're

Subtle but poignant.

You, sir, get a golf clap.

DanTheMeek
04-27-2014, 07:30 PM
Also, why on Earth are people in favor of price increases? Half the reason I was drawn to this game was that it is roughly half the price of Magic. They start increasing the prices and I won't be the only one that moves on to something else. Seriously, who in their right mind demands to pay MORE for something? Weird stuff...
This.

If you want to "donate" more money to the game yourself just to support them, that's cool, I understand the feeling, but just buy more plat that you don't really need and sit on it, no reason to force everyone else to spend more too.

Gwaer
04-27-2014, 07:50 PM
People buying more plat to sit on doesn't make anywhere near as much as a 50c price boost.

The reason why I wouldn't be down in a price hike is because I want this game to survive and make money without having to go down questionable roads. Also I'm sure CZE wouldn't do it unless it was necessary for the future of the game. But to think that a few people could save this game by just buying plat is beyond ludicrous. Dan, I really want to like you and take your opinions to heart but give me something here. Surely the overall health of the company producing the game is more important than a firm $2 price point on boosters.


Hopefully it it doesn't come to a price hike, and everything works out wonderfully. I'd just feel better if the prices started a bit higher, so that if anything they could lower booster prices rather than raise them. However, even mtg has changed its booster prices in the past. It's ridiculous to say that everyone will leave in droves if some years down the road Hex does as well.

mach
04-27-2014, 08:14 PM
Hopefully it it doesn't come to a price hike, and everything works out wonderfully. I'd just feel better if the prices started a bit higher, so that if anything they could lower booster prices rather than raise them. However, even mtg has changed its booster prices in the past. It's ridiculous to say that everyone will leave in droves if some years down the road Hex does as well.

Higher prices doesn't necessarily mean more profits. If it did, packs would be $1000 and Corey and friends would all be millionaires.

It's quite possible that they would make less money if boosters started out "a bit higher".

regomar
04-27-2014, 08:14 PM
Game is in closed beta and we're already hearing people say we need to increase prices to 'save the game'?

Crypto can sell boosters at 2 dollars because it costs them next to nothing to make and distribute new boosters. Magic needs to be higher because they need to print cards, boxes, and pack foils, distribute them all over the world, and then have retailers mark them up so they can profit too. At 2 dollars a pop for digital boosters, this company is making MORE money per booster than Wizards makes per physical pack sold. 2 dollars is MORE than enough. If they can't survive with the promised price point there's something much bigger going wrong than the price per booster.

If you personally want to donate more money for the same amount of product that's your prerogative, but don't force the rest of us to pay more because you're insecure about the future of a game that hasn't even properly released yet.

I backed this game at King level BECAUSE of the promises made and price points discussed. A king pledge is a lot of money to me and unlike some of you I actually manage my money and don't feel the need to pay more for the same product out of some misplaced sense of corporate welfare. The game is great and I'm glad to be a supporter, but there is a fine line between a fan that spends money and a fool wasting it.

Lochar
04-27-2014, 08:21 PM
Two dollars a booster is right at that sweet spot where people don't even really care that they're dropping it on the pack. You start edging the price up and people will draw back from it. If Corey REALLY wanted to make it addictive, they'd let you tie your account to a CC directly and let you set a purchase amount. 20-30 dollars in platinum every time you dropped to 0 plat left.

Then you'd never half to click the buttons to consciously acknowledge buying more plat. :P

I've already dropped 800(Grand King, Collector, and $50 in plat) into Hex. I'll continue to drop more, but if I start getting less bang for my buck, I'm very likely to slow purchases in the future.

Gwaer
04-27-2014, 08:28 PM
I'm not calling for them to raise booster prices. If they did it right this second that likely could drive people away. I specifically said I wish they started higher than 2 so they could if anything lower them. It's always good publicity to say we feel comfortable lowering a price, it's pretty much never good publicity to raise them even if it turns out to be necessary.

mach, you're absolutely right higher prices do not always equal more money, but if you don't give yourself enough margin on each pack sale it becomes impossible to maintain, and contrary to popular belief, these cards do not magically make themselves. Each set needs to fun art for future sets, to pay all the CZE employees including engineers, designers, accountants, etc, art assets sound assets, infrastructure expansion. Just because they aren't paying for ink and paper doesn't mean they're not paying for a lot of the same things mtg pays for, and several things that mtg doesn't pay for. Not to mention the cut game forge, and other partners are taking.

Its very sighted to call people who invested very heavily in the game fools, especially when we're extremely interested in the long term success of the game as a whole, at least I am.

mach
04-27-2014, 08:38 PM
I'm not calling for them to raise booster prices. If they did it right this second that likely could drive people away. I specifically said I wish they started higher than 2 so they could if anything lower them. It's always good publicity to say we feel comfortable lowering a price, it's pretty much never good publicity to raise them even if it turns out to be necessary.


How do you know they haven't already done this? Maybe their initial target price was $1.50 and they started them at $2 for exactly the reason you mentioned.

Gwaer
04-27-2014, 08:43 PM
I'm not at liberty to discuss how I know many things, sadly.

ossuary
04-27-2014, 09:02 PM
The product is a collection of ones and zeroes sitting on a server. They cost practically nothing to produce (on the order of billionths of a cent per card). There is absolutely no reason ever to jack up the price. They will make PLENTY of money on sheer volume, by continuing to treat the customers right and providing a great game at a fair price. :p

Gwaer
04-27-2014, 09:08 PM
You know that isn't true. Set one has been incredibly expensive to produce. That expense which is still mounting as of now can only be divided among a very limited number of boosters that have been purchased. They've gotten no where near to paying for themselves yet. As time goes on that will either remain to be true, or boosters need their price increased.

Though on the other hand set one will likely be one of the more expensive sets, since it includes finishing up dev work on the client and whatnot. Some portion of future sets price will have to be offset to pay back all of the production costs up to that point, but each set absolutely has to pay for all of its assets, including dev time. Is possible at $2 a pack that can't be done. Duplicating packs may be trivially inexpensive, but making the sets to get to a point where they can be duplicated is not.

shizuyami
04-27-2014, 09:28 PM
To be honest I feel like the packs are at the right price right now. And it sounds like your worried that CZE might just go bankrupt tomorrow >.> I am sure they have their finances planned properly. And instead of moving the price up it would be better to get more players which = more buyers. Therefore advertisement would earn them way more money than a priceboost. But we are not at that stage yet. Once beta keys get out there and once we hit open beta/release and maybe with a bit of advertisement you will see them snowball like crazy >.> to the point where they even have money to give away at tournaments in E sports. So relax. I am sure they know what they are doing. Lets not try to run their company.

regomar
04-27-2014, 09:28 PM
Its very sighted to call people who invested very heavily in the game fools, especially when we're extremely interested in the long term success of the game as a whole, at least I am.

You need to work on your reading comprehension since I did no such thing. I spent more on this Kickstarter than I've ever spent on an electronic game. I have absolutely no problem with people investing heavily in this game and I never so much as insinuated such.

What I'm calling a fool is the bizarre mindset of wanting to spend more for the same product. The game is barely out yet and you're already talking about how you'd be happy to get less for your dollar to 'save the game'. That strikes me as exceedingly foolhardy and I'm clearly not the only one here that thinks so. If you wish to invest further, by all means write a check. But please do not advocate raising prices in a game that's barely out of its infancy yet.

Also, if you think server infrastructure and bandwidth are even remotely close to the cost of printing, packaging, distribution, and reseller markup, you're flat out wrong. I GUARANTEE you Crypto pockets more money per 2 dollar booster than Wizards is making on each of their physical booster packs. There is a reason so many distribution models are going to digital distribution. It's faster, more efficient, it's drastically cheaper, and it requires less overhead and manpower. This is pretty basic stuff here.

Malicus
04-27-2014, 09:29 PM
It is essentially a question of volume given that the marginal cost of producing another booster is very low due to the digital nature of the game.

Gwaer's concern is that at a $2 price point the volume of sales needed to meet the development costs is 25% higher than if they had set a $2.50 price which is a valid concern. We all hope that they are easily hitting 300% of the necessary volumes because that will mean a robust community and longevity for the game but if their estimates for sales fail to meet development costs the game will be in trouble.

ossuary
04-27-2014, 09:34 PM
You know that isn't true. Set one has been incredibly expensive to produce. That expense which is still mounting as of now can only be divided among a very limited number of boosters that have been purchased. They've gotten no where near to paying for themselves yet. As time goes on that will either remain to be true, or boosters need their price increased.

Though on the other hand set one will likely be one of the more expensive sets, since it includes finishing up dev work on the client and whatnot. Some portion of future sets price will have to be offset to pay back all of the production costs up to that point, but each set absolutely has to pay for all of its assets, including dev time. Is possible at $2 a pack that can't be done. Duplicating packs may be trivially inexpensive, but making the sets to get to a point where they can be duplicated is not.

And you should know that just increasing the price doesn't increase profit. Especially in a digital medium, the opposite is in fact true far more often than not. Look at Steam. When Valve started experimenting with their sales structures, they quickly found that games would make more TOTAL money when they were on sale for a dollar than they had over their entire previous lifetime at full price - not more total units sold, more total MONEY taken in.

The cost to produce each individual unit in a digital environment is not affected one iota by the sunk costs to produce the original source material. All it costs in NEW costs is bandwidth for those bits of data, which, again, is on the order of billionths of a penny. This is pure economics. If you raise the price, in many cases you will actually decrease your total profit from sales (depending in part on the elasticity of the demand curve). Lowering the price, on the other hand, COULD increase total profit (but you have to find the sweet spot, as there is potentially a limited total amount of money to be spent).

I agree with you completely that the sunk costs have to be factored in, but that has nothing to do with my point about the cost to produce more cards of a set that already exists (there is none). Raising the price doesn't mean they will recoup their up front costs any faster, and it's a gross oversimplification or misunderstanding to suggest it does.

regomar
04-27-2014, 09:37 PM
You know that isn't true. Set one has been incredibly expensive to produce. That expense which is still mounting as of now can only be divided among a very limited number of boosters that have been purchased. They've gotten no where near to paying for themselves yet. As time goes on that will either remain to be true, or boosters need their price increased.

Though on the other hand set one will likely be one of the more expensive sets, since it includes finishing up dev work on the client and whatnot. Some portion of future sets price will have to be offset to pay back all of the production costs up to that point, but each set absolutely has to pay for all of its assets, including dev time. Is possible at $2 a pack that can't be done. Duplicating packs may be trivially inexpensive, but making the sets to get to a point where they can be duplicated is not.

The cost of artwork, design, and testing is a fraction of what it costs to print, prepare, warehouse, distribute, pay middlemen, promote to stores to get them to stock the product, plus retail markup of at least 20-30% on top of all that so the store can make money too.

Yes, Hex needs to pay for the design and implementation of the client and underlying architecture. But you can't add the cost of that to the cost of developing a card set. Maintenance yes, but the other things no. Yes, you are correct, the profits from set one will be put to recover from the hole of the initial development and implementation, but unless their costs have gone far over budget, this should be dealt within the first few sets after which it's all gravy. There's no way the money they're paying Gameforge is anywhere close to the costs to print, prepare, warehouse, distribute, pay middlemen, plus retail markup.

Barkam
04-27-2014, 09:38 PM
I think CZE's business model is solid. I don't foresee them having to increase the cost of their boosters. I would actually expect it to go lower if anything. CZE needs to maintain the path of releasing the game to as many people as people so that the quantity will make sure that this venture of theirs to be very very profitable. Their business model gets stronger as more people join the game (hence why they are devoting so much energy on PvE experience). Increasing their costs would just be straight greed. If CZE increase their costs, I will be definitely looking to offload all my HEX assets. If anything, I think the booster can go cheaper to make sure they undercut any possible competitor. They can do so since HEX is very scalable. Hardware gets cheaper everyday and each new player that join makes their development time more cost efficient.

Niedar
04-27-2014, 09:39 PM
mach, you're absolutely right higher prices do not always equal more money, but if you don't give yourself enough margin on each pack sale it becomes impossible to maintain, and contrary to popular belief, these cards do not magically make themselves. Each set needs to fun art for future sets, to pay all the CZE employees including engineers, designers, accountants, etc, art assets sound assets, infrastructure expansion.

Those are not marginal costs of selling a pack, they are fixed costs. If higher prices do not bring in more revenue then there is no case to be made to increase the cost of boosters. The only time that would be the case is if you actually do have a large marginal cost with selling a pack so while you could have larger revenues by keeping the price low you could even be losing money on each additional pack sold.


Start increasing prices and I walk, and I am sure I am not the only one. I didn't play MTGO due to this type of thinking.

regomar
04-27-2014, 09:45 PM
Their business model gets stronger as more people join the game (hence why they are devoting so much energy on PvE experience). Increasing their costs would just be straight greed. If CZE increase their costs, I will be definitely looking to offload all my HEX assets.

You and me both. I take promises very seriously, especially on games I Kickstart. They raise prices within the first two years, I'm gone until they are back down with an apology to the community.

Fortunately, I don't see that happening, and I believe the company knows better than to follow Gwaer's terrible advice. This game is quite fun, but I've seen too many companies break early promises on their games. I know where that leads. Once it starts it just gets worse and worse until the game inevitably folds.


Start increasing prices and I walk, and I am sure I am not the only one. I didn't play MTGO due to this type of thinking.

Glad I'm not the only one that takes price points seriously.

Gwaer
04-27-2014, 09:56 PM
Seems to me you need to work on your reading comprehension. I've not said once they should raise the price of boosters today or tomorrow or anytime. The op said he expects them to raise the price at some point in a time line. All I said was if they aren't making enough per booster I am open to them increasing that price so the game can continue to exist.

They've said they don't want to sell anything but packs, and entry fees. I'd rather pack prices were increased than entry fees personally if it had to be one of those things. Likewise, it's not foolhardy to want a thing you like to do what is necessary to continue to exist.

Hell if the same types of people keep threatening to walk from a price increase it might do the game more good than I thought, though.

regomar
04-27-2014, 09:59 PM
Seems to me you need to work on your reading comprehension. I've not said once they should raise the price of boosters today or tomorrow or anytime.


I'd love to see a price increase just to be safe. But I'm definitely in the minority on that.

Hmmmmmm :cool:

Niedar
04-27-2014, 10:02 PM
You seem to be stuck on the idea that increasing pack price for sure means that CZE will make more money and its just a flat out bad assumption to make.

regomar
04-27-2014, 10:03 PM
Hell if the same types of people keep threatening to walk from a price increase it might do the game more good than I thought, though.

Yeah, cause alienating your early player-base and backers is a great business idea ;) Wow man, the hits just keep coming from you. Have any more pearls of wisdom to impart?

Malicus
04-27-2014, 10:03 PM
You would rather the game burn and fail than they correct their prices if they estimated too low?

Promises? They set a price, in the future they may revaluate and increase it - that isn't breaking a promise, keeping a price point which doesn't support the game would be larger betrayal to player base.

That said I don't think it will be necessary and I think the game will be fine at $2 per pack but Gwaer suggesting that a $2.50 price point would have been a more stable entry point and offset costs at a lower volume may be completely correct, likely if CZE had simply set prices at $2.50 during the Kickstarter people would have been even happier with the value they were getting from their tiers and there wouldn't even be such a discussion.

We want this game to succeed and we are mostly talking in hypotheticals but dismissing the idea just because you don't like the $2.50 price point seems really silly to me all Gwaer's points were valid or opinion.

regomar
04-27-2014, 10:07 PM
You would rather the game burn and fail than they correct their prices if they estimated too low?

We want this game to succeed and we are mostly talking in hypotheticals but dismissing the idea just because you don't like the $2.50 price point seems really silly to me all Gwaer's points were valid or opinion.

Once again, you're assuming that raising prices per pack will increase revenue. Most data on modern microtransacton and game sales proves otherwise. I want the game to succeed. I wouldn't be here otherwise and I certainly would not have Kickstarted at King level if I wanted it to fail. My shooting down a price increase is entirely BECAUSE I don't want to see the game crash and burn which is what will happen if they get too greedy and creep those prices up.

Barkam
04-27-2014, 10:13 PM
Once again, you're assuming that raising prices per pack will increase revenue. Most data on modern microtransacton and game sales proves otherwise. I want the game to succeed. I wouldn't be here otherwise and I certainly would not have Kickstarted at King level if I wanted it to fail. My shooting down a price increase is entirely BECAUSE I don't want to see the game crash and burn which is what will happen if they get too greedy and creep those prices up.

Ding Ding! So many people are already adverse to the Pay to Play. We don't want to give them more reason to go away. $1 here and there is better than nothing at all. It doesn't cost CZE much more to have that player. It's practically free money for CZE.

Gwaer
04-27-2014, 10:19 PM
It's possible but unlikely. I'd love to see a price increase just to be safe. But I'm definitely in the minority on that. I doubt CZE will up the price if they can possibly help it. It'd be better for them to break their other promises and come up with some things to sell in their store.

Lets quote that entire post shall we? The majority of it is about how higher pack prices ship has sailed. It's not a viable option right now, I would have preferred a slightly higher price point yes, half the price of mtg is a great sales pitch though. If it turns out that at some point in the future a price increase would help the game then I am all for it.

Im im well aware that in many cases lowering a price can increase sales, and overall revenue. That is not always the case though, and often depends on increased exposure from the deal being particularly good. Most of the time it is also a limited time sale that drives interest in the game so word of mouth gets jump started. Notably MTG raises their pack prices for increased revenue. So it doesn't always equal less money to go that route. A temporary pack price discount is basically never an option for hex, lowering the value of boosters hurts the entire economy. Also something that isn't great is having all cards be virtually worthless. Which is more and more likely with a lot of free boosters + very cheap boosters.

The success of the game is I think, highly dependent on a very successful full launch to get the economy kickstarted. Convincing people that these 1s and 0s have value is going to be very hard. Even among supporters of the game you see people trivializing the worth of packs as is saying how much profit CZE is making. We have no idea what kind of deals are in place for money taken right off the top of pack sales. We've no idea how much it's making. My sole point if it turns out that it's not enough and somehow someway they can make the game last with a pack price increase then I'm entirely for it.

sukebe
04-27-2014, 10:27 PM
The cost of artwork, design, and testing is a fraction of what it costs to print, prepare, warehouse, distribute, pay middlemen, promote to stores to get them to stock the product, plus retail markup of at least 20-30% on top of all that so the store can make money too.

Yes, Hex needs to pay for the design and implementation of the client and underlying architecture. But you can't add the cost of that to the cost of developing a card set. Maintenance yes, but the other things no. Yes, you are correct, the profits from set one will be put to recover from the hole of the initial development and implementation, but unless their costs have gone far over budget, this should be dealt within the first few sets after which it's all gravy. There's no way the money they're paying Gameforge is anywhere close to the costs to print, prepare, warehouse, distribute, pay middlemen, plus retail markup.

I would bet money that you are incorrect about this fact. I have less experience when it comes to card games but from what I understand it is pretty close to mass producing game books.
First off, I realize there are differences so please don't respond with a post listing them. The plain fact is that while the initial construction and fine tuning of a factory that produces books or cards is expensive, the price for all future uses of that facility become extremely small (comparatively speaking).

I did a lot of research on the creation and production process of Dungeons and Dragons Roleplaying Game books. I talked to a lot of people involved in their creation and in their production. I was not given exact costs (as it was apparently against company policy to release those numbers) I did get the percentages of where the money went. Only about 10% (it varies depending on quality and materials) of the wholesale cost of the book goes towards the production and distribution of said book. If the product is new then 40% to 60% of the books wholesale price goes to paying of the cost of creating the book and/or the cost of creating future books. This includes the authors, artists, and game designers as well as all the unnamed people who make sure these people have what they need to work and are paid properly. The remaining 30% to 60% of the money goes towards company profits.

The above is a gross oversimplification of course but more specific information is really only available to those in whatever company is being looked at.

Long story short, you would be surprised how little money goes into the production and distribution of physical items. I did this research a little over 10 years ago so the info may be out of date but if anything the production costs have likely dropped. Most of the cost we pay for physical items goes to development and profits.

Now, more on topic than the above: No one is saying they need to or should raise prices on packs now. All gwear appears to be saying is that it might be necessary sometime in the future and that he would accept the increase in price if it means the game can make enough money to keep running.

Personally, I like the $2 cost (I can be a bit ocd with numbers as I like even amounts without fractions :-) ) but even if nothing else changes there will almost certainly be a price increase due to inflation. If it is like mtg, it will likely increase every decade or so. This isnt an effort on their part to take every little penny they can from us (at least it probably isnt) but is instead an effort to keep their profit margins at the same place they started.

Malicus
04-27-2014, 10:35 PM
The biggest problem I have with the arguments in this thread is the logical leap from "raising prices doesn't always increase revenue" to "raising prices actually lowers revenue so why would you do it".

The basic profitability model is ; marginal cost*volume + fixed cost < price*volume.

If this is ever untrue then we are in trouble as an unprofitable game won't last - if you remove the possibility of increasing price then you put greater pressure on increasing volume. If it ever came down to losing a game I enjoy and accepting a price increase I am firmly with Gwaer though I believe neither of us hope or expect it to come to that.

Niedar
04-27-2014, 10:36 PM
Fun fact, WOTC sells packs to distributors at 2 dollars or less a pack.

Gwaer
04-27-2014, 10:52 PM
WOTC also has people begging it to let them do art, and incredible infrastructure, it likely costs them less to produce a set and ship it than it does for CZE to digitally just produce a set.

With time that likely won't remain true. But it's a pretty meaningless fact.

Dropbear
04-28-2014, 12:08 AM
Why do they need to increase the price on boosters?

Seriously. Why? They're making an insane markup on boosters due to it's digital nature, and get this, the Auction House will be using Plat too, so for each plat usage on mercs, sleeves, PvE cards, alt. art cards, anything rare, they get all the money from the plat bought using that too.

Not only that, but Cryptozoic itself is backed from real-game sales as well. This isn't a one-trick company, it's got DC, Capcom's Street Fighter, Portal game coming soon, the card game side is huge.

Sell sleeves or the ability to place someone's signature on cards (NOT THE CARD ITSELF). Release Set 2 and have all of us buy twenty packs of those because they're brand new and we're sick of all our set 1 boosters. There's no need to increase price.

mach
04-28-2014, 01:45 AM
I think many of you are still locked in the mindset of a paper TCG.

Example: Set 2 comes out. Set 2 boosters contain 15 commons, 5 uncommons, 2 rares/legendaries, a treasure chest, and a mystery orb. when you buy them you have a chance at a primal or golden primal pack. They cost $2.99.

Have they raised or lowered the price?

Kroan
04-28-2014, 01:48 AM
Raised. $2.99 > $2.00. What's in there doesn't matter for a draft.

shocker455
04-28-2014, 01:53 AM
Its funny because at the same time he raised the prize for limited while destroying the value of rares/legendaries.

ossuary
04-28-2014, 04:23 AM
Im im well aware that in many cases lowering a price can increase sales, and overall revenue. That is not always the case though, and often depends on increased exposure from the deal being particularly good. Most of the time it is also a limited time sale that drives interest in the game so word of mouth gets jump started. Notably MTG raises their pack prices for increased revenue. So it doesn't always equal less money to go that route.

This example is utterly meaningless as it relates to Hex, because:

1) Magic has 20 years' worth of addicted users, a great deal of whom wouldn't walk over $0.50 a pack - that's an inelastic demand curve, amount of demand does not decrease as significantly as the price increases leading to larger profit at higher price.

2) It's a physical product, which people have been conditioned to expect price increases on over time thanks to our shitty fake-capitalist Western economy and greedy corporations - again, that's inelasticity in the demand curve, probably to a lesser extent than in 1) but still relevant.

Neither of those factors are true in Hex's case. It's new, unestablished, and digital, which people know is cheap to produce, compared to physical.

Frankly, if the game can't survive on $2 a pack, it can't survive at all. Jacking the price up $0.50 if they're in financial trouble will not magically fix the problem, it will just hasten their demise. Thank god for all of us companies don't fold with just a few months of unprofitability. CZE also happens to have pretty lucrative assets from other products, so it's not like they're banking on this or will be shutting the doors tomorrow. It takes time to recoup the losses from priming the pump with a new endeavor - they'll likely be a few years before they're truly in the black, but that's how business works (and it's why so many upstart businesses like restaurants fail in the first 5 years, but again, those are one trick ponies, Hex is just one facet of CZE's portfolio).

The answer to any potential financial problem is not a price hike. It's ludicrous to suggest otherwise. If there really is a financial problem (which won't become dire for some time now), there are several things that could be done to help alleviate it, like offering more deals, dumping additional money into marketing to try to draw in more interest, or offering additional valuable items for sale in the store. But raising the price of a digital product in its infancy, regardless of the so-called need for it, would be the kiss of death, not a saving grace.

AstaSyneri
04-28-2014, 04:41 AM
I am with Ossuary here. In short: The moment CZE talks about price increases, the game is dead. $2 is the right price, because it brought a lot of older players out of the woodwork, who like this kind of game, but have experienced the total cost of ownership of a CCG/TCG vs. the inability find people to play with, the awkwardness of constructing and building physical decks (the time wasted to sort all that stuff, the garbage you get, etc.). Here you have all the positives with only one negative: Once CZE goes under, your complete collection is irrevocably voided, the value reduced to nil. The price you can get in the market (pure microeconomics here) is determined by what people are willing to pay, bearing that particular risk.

For myself I know that $2 is what I consider fair, everything beyond that I'll start to hate. I know I'll want a sizable collection - that means something like a minimum of 300 boosters per edition, which equals $600. That is a lot of money. Raise that to $750 or $900 and I am far less likely to go along.

Right now CZE is pushing hard to get the monetized Beta right, because they need that for planning: How does the income stream compare to projected targets? The steady baseline of draft tournaments and other events is a non-negligible source of income and CZE wants to establish that, because apart of the direct money, it's a good indicator of customer retention.

Once the have established a really stable client and tournaments work nicely, there shouldn't be any reason to change prices. The game will easily pay for itself.

Rapkannibale
04-28-2014, 04:50 AM
I don't think the will increase the price of boosters. A big advantage of running a digital product is that the "manufacturing" cost of each booster trends towards 0 the more boosters they sell. Basically after the initial cost of design and development are done there are only very low costs of selling more product. With physical products such as Magic the cost of producing and selling more are relatively proportional to the quality sold.

In the end CZE's net profit on each pack is probably higher than what Wizard gets on each physical Magic pack.

Hexgo
04-28-2014, 05:07 AM
Isn't this very silly to discuss without any insight in the CZE numbers of investement/costs/player expectations/investors/loans ect ect or any profitability ratios what so ever...?
Just sayin'...

Turtlewing
04-28-2014, 09:34 AM
Part of the beauty of being digital-only is that their costs are tied to number of users (primarily to simultaneous online users which some effect from total users due to data retention), not to number of cards printed. So as long as the average user spends the same portion of their income on Hex the actual prices of the packs and entry fees don't matter. Inflation will juts mean that the average player buys more packs and plays in more tournaments as the opportunity cost of doing so diminishes.

That said, there is diminished returns on buying more packs and entry tickets, so in the long term there probably will come a time when CZE has to increase prices to compensate for inflation. Otherwise play time will become the bottleneck instead of money and from then on CZE looses buying power per user to inflation. (imagine if $1 bought 100,000 platinum but pack and entry fees remained constant to see an example of the concept)

The much more likely issue to require a price change would be currency exchange rates. It's not unheard of for the exchange rate between currency to vary enough that CZE would have to alter the platinum price to keep the buying power equivalent. If for example the AU dollar tanks, and CZE wants to still get one US dollar's worth of buying power per 100 plat, they'd have to increase the price of platinum in AUD to compensate for the change (Assuming CZE is converting everything to USD eventually).

Bells
04-28-2014, 01:03 PM
Did you know that 0.5% of Mobile players are responsible for 80% of mobile gaming profits?

Yeah... a LOT of players, serious players, came to HEX under a simple promise... a game that is similar to MTG, but builds up and expands on the advantages of an online environment, and that is cheaper to play. SUBSTANTIALLY so...

this brough out a lot of kitchen sink players, old players and people who were tired to the high mark up of other TCG's our there... and guess what? They are the heavy investors that hold up much of the water of what Hex can be.

If prices go up... not only will the entry barrier go up... which sucks... but MANY of the heavy players will simply walk. And that would break Hex.

Like it or not... Hex is still in Beta. It's working, it's showing promise. But it CAN still die out the door... Crypt knows this. Which is why they keep so close with the playerbase and work so hard on content. They know they are not ''in the safe zone'' not even close!

But... none of this thread was based on official information About HEX... which is great. Because we can understand they know all of this... I don't think prices will increase. I think MAYBE new products will come... maybe some premium pack, overly expensive but with assured higher level content... something aimed at the End Game crowd. But there is no End Game yet... so there is no way to check that stuff.

Other than that... i have complete Faith in the Hex team and i stand behind them 100%. But, if prices increase... i'm offloading my HEX stuff and moving on to something else...

sukebe
04-28-2014, 02:41 PM
Apparently I make my posts to long as it seems no one actually reads them. Even if you ignore my point on physical production and distribution costs being only a very small percent of costs it would be nice if all of you who are arguing that prices should not change could touch on the issue of inflation.

I would be extremely surprised if we didnt see at least a small increase in price a decade down the road. I think $2 is a good price, but in 10 years that $2 will only be worth ~ $1.63. If they increase the price by 0.37 at this point it would not be a price hike, it would simply bring them back to level they started at.

Again, no one is saying that they will have to raise the price anytime soon. I have no doubt that this game will be strong, probably from the second it is officially released. However, nothing is immune to inflation (unless the government is making it so, and I doubt hex will be popular enough to warrant that :-) )

Lochar
04-28-2014, 02:46 PM
I have serious doubts about CZE shooting up the price of boosters even if inflation happens at a horribly high level. There's going to be too high of a level of expectation. If prices did go up, I'd assume they would add 1-2 more commons to offset it.

If they jack the price of anything up, it'll be the cost to enter a tournament. I don't think there was ever a promise about tourney entries staying at a dollar.

Three or four years down the road when they stop selling Set 1 or 2, wouldn't you pay 1000-1500 plat to enter a tournament that offered Swiss rules for an out of print set?

mach
04-28-2014, 02:56 PM
Three or four years down the road when they stop selling Set 1 or 2, wouldn't you pay 1000-1500 plat to enter a tournament that offered Swiss rules for an out of print set?

Haven't they already promised not to do this?

Lochar
04-28-2014, 02:57 PM
Point still stands. Even if they never up the price of a single pack, they can up and/or change the rewards of a tournament, then charge extra to get into the tournament.

AstaSyneri
04-29-2014, 05:59 AM
Yeah... a LOT of players, serious players, came to HEX under a simple promise... a game that is similar to MTG, but builds up and expands on the advantages of an online environment, and that is cheaper to play. SUBSTANTIALLY so...

this brough out a lot of kitchen sink players, old players and people who were tired to the high mark up of other TCG's our there... and guess what? They are the heavy investors that hold up much of the water of what Hex can be.

If prices go up... not only will the entry barrier go up... which sucks... but MANY of the heavy players will simply walk. And that would break Hex.

So nicely summarized - I am absolutely with Bells. Also, I am one of those old players. Even my kids tell me so ;-).