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View Full Version : Will Swiss Draft Tournaments come back?



Khazrakh
04-27-2014, 11:35 PM
Now with the tournaments still being down there's no knowing for sure, but right now there only is the 5-3-2-2 drafting queue and to be honest, in my opinion that is a great mistake.
I got to play 2 draft tournaments on saturday and in both of my first rounds I got paired against somebody that obviously didn't have much experience with the game or drafts in general. They picked bad cards, chump attacked into my guys, made a lot of bad plays in general and so on.

Now that's a good thing for me obviously as I got into the next round without too much of a hassle, but it's in no way good for the guys I played and it's not healthy for the game as a whole. Those guys paid 7$/a draft ticket to play the draft and got completely steamrolled withoug knowing what happened to them.
Those guys should be in the Swiss Queue where not only they get to play 3 rounds no matter how they fare but also get to play against other newbies (which in no way is meant to be insulting, everybody had to start once). Right now they'll probably draft again one or two times and then give up frustrated about always losing first round.

So tl;dr: Please bringt back the Swiss Queue as a second option for drafting ASAP ;)

funktion
04-28-2014, 02:16 AM
They will be coming back, just right now they don't want to pre-emptively splinter the player base more than necessary.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 02:25 AM
I have to admit, swiss might have been better to start with. I still feel guilty for eliminating Colin in my first ever live (=payed) draft.

Kroan
04-28-2014, 02:29 AM
I have to admit, swiss might have been better to start with. I still feel guilty for eliminating Colin in my first ever live (=payed) draft.
I'm sure Colin doesn't mind losing, since there is nothing left for him to win than the fun of playing :P

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 02:36 AM
I'm sure Colin doesn't mind losing, since there is nothing left for him to win than the fun of playing :P

And I denied him that fun! I swear, I never felt so bad 2-0'ing someone.

mach
04-28-2014, 02:39 AM
I'm sure Colin doesn't mind losing, since there is nothing left for him to win than the fun of playing :P

With all the money he's spent he doesn't get even one free draft win? Isn't this supposed to be pay-to-win?

BlackRoger
04-28-2014, 03:25 AM
I felt really bad when I won against Flint because of the tourney bugs (he got dc'd and stuck on something second game).
At least if it was swiss he would have gotten a second chance to try his deck.

Anyhow I don't think we have to worry about splintering it.
Most people will likely jump into the queue that's closer to being full anyways, not wanting to wait.
Also, I hope once people finish their free draft runs we'll start seeing some sealed going on.
I have a feeling it will be a little more interesting thanks to the shinhare buff patch from alpha end.

Zomnivore
04-28-2014, 03:32 AM
I think at this point there is enough of a player base to support multiple draft formats.

People want to draft now that things matter.

Mike411
04-28-2014, 05:18 AM
Yeah - IMO, they could add swiss draft.

And I think they should combine the constructed queues.

Khazrakh
04-28-2014, 06:22 AM
While I can agree to the not wanting to splinter the player base I absolutely think that Swiss would be the better way to go. People will lose interest in draft fast once they lost 3-4 drafts first round in a row.
I'm not talking about guys like Colin but people who never drafted before or even never played a real TCG before Hex - those guys really shouldn't be forced to go into a single elimination row.

Barkam
04-28-2014, 08:11 AM
I agree. They need to put back in Swiss asap. I dont want to run out of opponents. Them not having swiss will make splintering eorse because they'll splinter to no tournaments :(.

Khazrakh
05-08-2014, 10:36 PM
I feel like I have to bringt this topic back up.
I do think we have enough players right now do support both a Swiss and a Single Elimination Queue - especially once the first beta invites go out. Swiss is so much better for people that are new to drafting/TGCs and I really fear we'll lose quite some players if we keep forcing them into single elimination where they'll just get eliminated first round again and again.

Axle
05-08-2014, 10:43 PM
We need a tutorial that points them to the difference in the queues too with that. I really hope the tutorial doesn't just teach you how to play but teaches you how to navigate the client + deck building (# of cards in deck, # of copies, socketing and multiple copies of the same card socketing, etc)

Mike411
05-08-2014, 10:45 PM
I do agree that swiss draft should be default, with single elimination coming when there's enough playerbase to support it.

Having a casual format like swiss be the default would help ease people into drafting.

Axle
05-08-2014, 10:53 PM
And then the experienced card game players (most of HEX right now) would hold out on spending money on Draft until single Elim because they expect to get less value out of swiss.

Khazrakh
05-08-2014, 11:52 PM
And then the experienced card game players (most of HEX right now) would hold out on spending money on Draft until single Elim because they expect to get less value out of swiss.

Personally I wouldn't mind to play Swiss too much, but it's a valid concern.
Still I'm certain we could get both queues going. Having hundreds of set 1 boosters from kickstarter I'd assume a lot of more experienced players would still just join what ever queue is going to start first but you wouldn't force anybody into joining a format he's not comfortable with playing (yet).

Hieronymous
05-09-2014, 07:26 AM
Keep in mind draft numbers may drop a bit once everyone burns through their free tickets.

Khazrakh
05-09-2014, 09:44 AM
Keep in mind draft numbers may drop a bit once everyone burns through their free tickets.

Well in that case it should be only Swiss in my opinion.
I played two drafts today so far - one guy I played had a 60 card deck, another guy used a blood hero...in a ruby only deck.

I know I repeat myself here, but those guys shouldn't be in single elimination. How often will they try again? Once? Twice? If you always lose first round and the tournament is over for you then you stop playing at all.

I'm really happy to see a lot of inexperienced players in the draft queues - that's giving me hope that Hex actually has a chance outside of the MTG audience - but those guys need to have fun or they'll stop playing soon.

Zaxian
05-09-2014, 09:57 AM
+1
I've never drafted for real before and whilst I'd love to get stuck in, I'm not even going to try until the swiss queues are up. I hadn't actually realised they weren't up until yesterday evening, I had been looking forward to having a go this weekend :(
I can't be the only person waiting for them either.

Dynimix
05-09-2014, 10:00 AM
As a newer player, I completely support this. I am still trying to be better at drafts and card placement, but I still have my work cut out for me and it would be fun to play against some newer people as well and kind of learn together. Though I also don't mind being an easy win for people now. I am an intelligent person and will figure this all out. It is nice to see the moves that you more veteran TCG players make and try and use them myself.

Zaxian
05-09-2014, 11:14 AM
Tweet (https://twitter.com/HexTCG/status/464820903269138432) thread about it from the HexTCG twitter:

@HexTCG Any chance we'll see swiss drafts up for this weekend? (Haven't drafted for real before and single elim's too scary :P)

@Zaxian not this weekend. might be a few weeks, but it's definitely something we will want to get in sooner than later.

So there you have it, it's coming :) ... but not imminently :(

Khazrakh
05-09-2014, 11:47 AM
Tweet (https://twitter.com/HexTCG/status/464820903269138432) thread about it from the HexTCG twitter:



So there you have it, it's coming :) ... but not imminently :(

I really don't get why they are doing this. Swiss style tournaments are in, Sealed is Swiss (and never fires), and there even are two constructed queues, one Swiss and one Single Elimination - both probably didn't fire once so far either.

To me, not offering Swiss is a huge mistake and it's much worse than not having tournaments running. People wait, patiently if they have to, but once they lost 2-3-4-5 Single Elimination Queues in a row they probably just lose interest and won't come back :(

The_Lannisters
05-09-2014, 11:50 AM
I'm happy drafting but I'd be happier playing Swiss format. It does not make sense not to offer it. Don't the draft queues look healthy enough?

Daer
05-09-2014, 11:59 AM
I've seen a couple newer players on other sites say they would prefer Swiss Drafts too.

Kategora
05-09-2014, 01:35 PM
Question from someone on twitter:

Any chance we'll see swiss drafts up for this weekend? (Haven't drafted for real before and single elim's too scary :P)

Answer from Cryptozoic:

Not this weekend. Might be a few weeks, but it's definitely something we will want to get in sooner than later.

I agree with the concerns: Swiss draft are missing urgently. You are serious, we have to wait weeks? Why swiss for constructed and sealed and not for normal drafting? Look at the torunaments: As good as any plays constructed or sealed.

I played 4 drafts and lose all in the first round. Yeahh, I Complain? No, It was fun and I learned a lot. I have enough free drafts from kickstarter. It' s only a matter of time and I gain better results. But for people who have only slacker backer or get a beta key and have to pay for drafting?

Idus
05-09-2014, 02:19 PM
I'd much prefer Swiss as well. It does seem odd they're saying weeks to come out. If the reason is just to keep queues firing quickly, maybe they should alternate queue types each day. If it's to get pro 's investing more money, then as others have mentioned, I think it might be a short-term win, but a long-term loss. I'm poor and a Casual player. Once my KS drafts run out, I'll probably just wait till Swiss is up until I draft again, as playing against the hard-core drafters is just too painful.

Zaxian
05-09-2014, 02:25 PM
Question from someone on twitter: [...]
Dude, scroll up next time ;)

Kategora
05-09-2014, 02:55 PM
Dude, scroll up next time ;)

Sorry, you are right:D: But the core of my statement remains.

Mike411
05-09-2014, 03:00 PM
They said that there has to be a demand for it. So I guess they're looking for more voices or more people to join single elim. draft, as it's kind of hard to show a demand for swiss when you can't join it :p

Kategora
05-09-2014, 03:09 PM
I bet 50 booster packs, their are enough players who want to play swiss draft.

Vorpal
05-09-2014, 03:30 PM
I absolutely think they should have swiss in before open beta.

Eklypz
05-09-2014, 05:51 PM
Put me in the was hoping for swiss drafts queue. Was really looking forward to playing those this weekend, did not realize they would not be included. Feels like they are just trying to burn through packs quicker at the expense of inexperienced players in this game like myself.

Xenavire
05-09-2014, 06:01 PM
Put me in the was hoping for swiss drafts queue. Was really looking forward to playing those this weekend, did not realize they would not be included. Feels like they are just trying to burn through packs quicker at the expense of inexperienced players in this game like myself.

I dont see how it is 'burning through packs' quicker. You use up the same amount of packs, and pay out the same amount of packs.

The only thing that is quicker is that people can queue multiple times if they keep getting eliminated, but someone could rare-draft and drop in swiss anyway, achieving the same thing, so it is only inconvenient to a few people in the long run.

CZE just wants people to be able to draft quickly. Look at sealed and constructed - both are empty, and a draft seems to fire every 5 minutes at least. Splitting that would just be bad for everyone.

Eklypz
05-09-2014, 06:11 PM
I dont see how it is 'burning through packs' quicker. You use up the same amount of packs, and pay out the same amount of packs.


If I am instantly eliminated, losing my first match (likely scenario), then I will have to spend more to get in another game instead of the 3 guaranteed games that swiss would provide. I also lose out on the experience of playing against better players. As a slacker backer I have 25 packs, and am sure many others have many packs right now that are in surplus to cause them to not buy more packs until gone.

mach
05-09-2014, 06:16 PM
CZE just wants people to be able to draft quickly. Look at sealed and constructed - both are empty, and a draft seems to fire every 5 minutes at least. Splitting that would just be bad for everyone.

I think there are other reasons for that, such as all those draft tickets only working for the drafts.

But if that is the case, they should take down SE drafts and bring up Swiss drafts instead, at least for a while. Swiss drafts need to be tested too.

primer
05-09-2014, 07:14 PM
they should take down SE drafts and bring up Swiss drafts instead, at least for a while. Swiss drafts need to be tested too.

CZE pls!

Mike411
05-09-2014, 10:32 PM
I dont see how it is 'burning through packs' quicker. You use up the same amount of packs, and pay out the same amount of packs.

But it doesn't pay them out in the same fashion. I've seen single-elim drive off people who were trying draft for the first time... swiss seems more friendly to newcomers IMO.

Khazrakh
05-09-2014, 11:22 PM
CZE just wants people to be able to draft quickly. Look at sealed and constructed - both are empty, and a draft seems to fire every 5 minutes at least. Splitting that would just be bad for everyone.

Then make a single queue but make it Swiss. Through Single Elimination we'll lose the most important part of the playerbase - the guys who don't know how much they will love that game and TCGs in general yet - and I think that's worse for everyone in the long run :/

Mike411
05-09-2014, 11:34 PM
It may not fragment the draft base at all, there's people that are not drafting now because there's no swiss, who would start drafting when it's added.

Cory_Jones
05-09-2014, 11:49 PM
We will get it in as soon as possible, we have pairings bug with Swiss draft, I hope it's fixed next week. As with everything we push forward inch by inch, I also want it it to be faster, but at least its moving... Even if it's Slowly :)

Khazrakh
05-10-2014, 12:07 AM
We will get it in as soon as possible, we have pairings bug with Swiss draft, I hope it's fixed next week. As with everything we push forward inch by inch, I also want it it to be faster, but at least its moving... Even if it's Slowly :)

Now that's something I can understand - thanks for the clarification Cory!

Mike411
05-10-2014, 12:23 AM
Ooh that's the first I've heard it was bugged, thanks for the response :)

hex_colin
05-10-2014, 12:25 AM
Ooh that's the first I've heard it was bugged, thanks for the response :)

Yeah, you frequently got paired against someone you'd already played in Alpha. Not much fun, especially if you already know you don't match up well with them.

Eklypz
05-10-2014, 02:10 PM
We will get it in as soon as possible, we have pairings bug with Swiss draft, I hope it's fixed next week. As with everything we push forward inch by inch, I also want it it to be faster, but at least its moving... Even if it's Slowly :)

Any thought to making the timer longer in the interim? I keep timing out in games and notice I lost a lot of time just with the draw part of it. Granted I have had some major projects that did not let me play alpha as much I'd like so slower than many but seems often I am just waiting for the button to come up while watching seconds tick by. Seems others are in similar situations from chat convos.

Thanks so much for the update, glad it is a bug that can be squashed!

Zomnivore
05-10-2014, 08:13 PM
That sounds much much better then the explanation I got in chat today.

Feel much better about the whole situation now, if that's the case then.

ev1lb0b
05-11-2014, 03:41 PM
Hopefully this will make it easier on the casual/average drafters as getting knocked out in the first round in every game (I've heard this many times now) would get old fast...let the pros duke it out against each other and the newbies at least have the chance to win a pack or 2.

pheedsta
05-11-2014, 03:47 PM
Look at sealed and constructed - both are empty, and a draft seems to fire every 5 minutes at least.

I can understand why few people are playing sealed at the moment. I am waiting to get a good card base through draft (only a slacker backer so I need to make the most of my meager boosters) before I tackle sealed. In saying that, I have taken the plunge with elimination draft and come off pretty well so far.

Xenavire
05-11-2014, 05:48 PM
I can understand why few people are playing sealed at the moment. I am waiting to get a good card base through draft (only a slacker backer so I need to make the most of my meager boosters) before I tackle sealed. In saying that, I have taken the plunge with elimination draft and come off pretty well so far.

I think you have the two terms confused, which is understandable, but sealed is the format where you open 6 boosters, and make a deck from them (unlike draft, where you open 3, and choose cards one by one.) Constructed is the one where you bring a deck made up from your own collection.

And I have to say, you are making the right move by drafting up a base collection. It doesn't hurt to win a few boosters here and there :)

pheedsta
05-12-2014, 02:00 AM
I think you have the two terms confused, which is understandable, but sealed is the format where you open 6 boosters, and make a deck from them (unlike draft, where you open 3, and choose cards one by one.) Constructed is the one where you bring a deck made up from your own collection.

Thanks for the clarification Xenavire.

Xenavire
05-12-2014, 03:45 AM
Thanks for the clarification Xenavire.

Happy to help :)

Khazrakh
05-19-2014, 11:02 PM
Any news on Swiss?
I'd guess with 20.000 new people there should be enough players to not only justify 2 queues but also make it even more important to actually have Swiss as I'd guess we'll see a lot of inexperienced players ;)

Philomorph
05-19-2014, 11:37 PM
I don't know if it's just a business decision, hoping that single elim draft will net them more booster sales, but I'd really like to see more people playing constructed so we can work out the meta-game faster. But everyone I talk to in chat complains that the rewards aren't high enough. I'm not sure why this is the opinion because I'm playing for fun first and rewards second. I don't feel like having to spend more than $6 every time I want to play something other than single games with no record keeping.

I'd like to see some better incentive to playing other formats.

Khazrakh
05-19-2014, 11:39 PM
I don't know if it's just a business decision[...]

Cory stated that Swiss is/was bugged and kept matching you to the guy you played before so I guess it will be up once they figure that out.
It's just that it would be a great time to do so with all the new people coming to Hex ;)

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 01:00 AM
I'm confused...so sealed is basically just open 6 boosters for yourself?

So...Single El. Draft=go in with 3 of your boosters and pick cards also of your opponents.
Sealed=Pick 6 boosters for yourself and build a deck out of it.
Constructed=Play with your own decks

Sums it up?

Gwaer
05-20-2014, 02:09 AM
Yes, that sums it up.
Draft, 3 boosters, pick and pass
sealed, 6 boosters, can use any of those cards to build a deck
constructed no boosters, just build with your collection and play

The single elimination, swiss, etc are tournament types that can be tacked onto any tournament. Swiss means you play all rounds, and get a prize for every game you win, single elimination means one loss and you're out, no more games.

Kirian
05-20-2014, 09:44 AM
I personally have zero interest in single-elimination draft. It kinda sucks to start up a draft and only get to play two games--especially true if you have to schedule a block of time out in order to actually play a draft, which (as a parent of two) I would have to do. I'd rather schedule the full three hours and be playing the whole time.

(For the same reasons, I'm focusing more on PVE and constructed... but it'd be nice to draft sometimes!)

primer
05-20-2014, 10:15 AM
I was told in game chat recently that they are waiting until they are sure they have enough people to support two draft queues. I for one am not drafting properly until swiss draft is implemented as i'm sure others are too. If the swiss draft queuing is fixed then why not take take out 5-3-2-2 that has little value, in terms of prizes, to players and implement 8-4 and swiss.

Khazrakh
05-20-2014, 10:33 AM
I was told in game chat recently that they are waiting until they are sure they have enough people to support two draft queues. I for one am not drafting properly until swiss draft is implemented as i'm sure others are too. If the swiss draft queuing is fixed then why not take take out 5-3-2-2 that has little value, in terms of prizes, to players and implement 8-4 and swiss.

I'd support it!
This way we'd really have a casual and a competitive queue.

Xenavire
05-20-2014, 10:34 AM
I was told in game chat recently that they are waiting until they are sure they have enough people to support two draft queues. I for one am not drafting properly until swiss draft is implemented as i'm sure others are too. If the swiss draft queuing is fixed then why not take take out 5-3-2-2 that has little value, in terms of prizes, to players and implement 8-4 and swiss.

I personally really enjoy 5-3-2-2, and I probably would quit drafting altogether (barring my free for a year ones, which I would probably raredraft in swiss) if it was removed. I don't feel that we need 8-4 at all. You can comfortably go infinite if you can draft well, and go soft-infinite even if you can make it to the second round often enough in 5-3-2-2.

cavench
05-20-2014, 10:36 AM
I was told in game chat recently that they are waiting until they are sure they have enough people to support two draft queues.

From my draft experience last night it averages 8 minutes for queue to start; which is tolerable. But if the wait time doubles then it may discourage me into doing something else instead. So in this regard I agree with CZE's current decision to keep only one queue at a time.

primer
05-20-2014, 11:17 AM
I personally really enjoy 5-3-2-2, and I probably would quit drafting altogether (barring my free for a year ones, which I would probably raredraft in swiss) if it was removed. I don't feel that we need 8-4 at all. You can comfortably go infinite if you can draft well, and go soft-infinite even if you can make it to the second round often enough in 5-3-2-2.

Ofc you need 8-4 that's where the value is for the good drafters. If you can consistently place top 2 in a draft then there's no point in playing 5-3-2-2 because you're losing value.

As for soft-infinite, if your only making it to the second round 'often enough' you might as well play swiss. If you go 1-1 (3rd/4th in 5-3-2-2) and win 2 packs, you still have another game in swiss to go 2-1 and get 2 packs.

I see the market for 5-3-2-2 but from a value point of view its just not worth it.

Khazrakh
05-20-2014, 10:41 PM
8-4 will be needed in the long run!
5-3-2-2 is fun for now but you have to win every single draft to make a profit that way - not what most competitive players will be looking for.

Cernz
05-20-2014, 11:34 PM
winning 3 packs is not a profit? i dont get it, you pay 3 packs (where you keep the cards)
+ 100 plat = 1 pack, when you win 3 packs you have 2 packs profit? or am i wrong?

though the profit is not as high as the buyin for the next tournament, but its still a profit.

saffamike
05-20-2014, 11:36 PM
You're correct Cernz. As you keep the cards you draft, the only incremental cost to draft is $1 or your 100 plat, so 3 packs back is $6 RRP and definitely a profit.

Khazrakh
05-21-2014, 03:24 AM
I don't want to transform this thread into a payout structure discussion and my my point is still that Swiss should be made available as soon as possible, but still there is a difference between winning some stuff (as in 5-3-2-2) and being able to go endless without ever having to pay for anything at all - and that's what 8-4 is all about.
If you want to go endless in 5-3-2-2 you have to make it to the final every single time and get some money cards to sell to pay for your next draft - that's not a very realistic scenario.

Sure - everybody has different preferences, but don't underestimate the "going endless crowd" ;)

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 04:13 AM
I don't want to transform this thread into a payout structure discussion and my my point is still that Swiss should be made available as soon as possible, but still there is a difference between winning some stuff (as in 5-3-2-2) and being able to go endless without ever having to pay for anything at all - and that's what 8-4 is all about.
If you want to go endless in 5-3-2-2 you have to make it to the final every single time and get some money cards to sell to pay for your next draft - that's not a very realistic scenario.

Sure - everybody has different preferences, but don't underestimate the "going endless crowd" ;)

I think the 5-3-2-2 is just as good as the 8-4 queue for going infinite. It is more forgiving if you run into a streak of bad luck (either being matched up with other pro infinite drafters, or flat out bad draws despite drafting well). With 5-3-2-2 you can still go infinite if you can pick up a few decent rares while drafting, you just miss out on some profit for that round. But any time you make it to the finals, you have gained as much or more than you spent.

Sure, if someone can make it to the finals every time in 8-4, they will never have to pay another cent, but nobody has a 100% win rate, and they could end up drying up just as fast, if not faster, than in the 5-3-2-2 queue. I mean, going infinite is a lot easier when you have a buffer.

Khazrakh
05-21-2014, 04:58 AM
I'll try to explain it with an example. Let's say you make it to round two 75% of the time, the final 50% of the time and you win that final every second game you get there.

5-3-2-2

25% of the times you win nothing
25% of the time you win 2 boosters
25% of the time you win 3 boosters
25% of the time you win 5 boosters

On average you win 2.5 boosters ((2+3+5)/4).

8-4

50% of the time you win nothing
25% of the time you win 4 boosters
25% of the time you win 8 boosters

On average you win 3 boosters.

That's 0.5 boosters more every single draft you play and it's getting more the better you get at making it to the finals/winning the finals. Sure, 8-4 isn't for everyone, but neither is 5-3-2-2/Swiss - it's all about offering the best value to every kind of player :)

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 05:23 AM
Actually, if you are skipping the first round, you have that math completely wrong.

It is actually:

5-3-2-2

33% of the time you get 2 packs.
33% of the time you get 3 packs.
33% of the time you get 5 packs.

On average you win 3.3 boosters ((2+3+5)/3)

And if you are including the first round, you get math like this:

5-3-2-2

25% of the times you win nothing.
25% of the time you win 2 packs.
25% of the time you win 3 packs.
25% of the time you win 5 packs.

On average you win 2.5 boosters ((2+3+5)/4).

8-4
75% of the time you get nothing.
12.5% of the time you get 4 packs.
12.5% of the time you get 8 packs.
I am a little fuzzy on the math here, but I am pretty sure that is less than 2.5 boosters.

So in actual fact, unless you have a 100% win rate in the first two rounds, you would gain more in total by playing 5-3-2-2.

Khazrakh
05-21-2014, 05:30 AM
Mh I didn't skip the first round 25% of the time I lose in the first round, 25% of the time I lose in the second round, 25% of the time I lose the final 25% of the time I win the final - so I think the math would be correct :)

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 05:34 AM
Mh I didn't skip the first round 25% of the time I lose in the first round, 25% of the time I lose in the second round, 25% of the time I lose the final 25% of the time I win the final - so I think the math would be correct :)

But you didn't use that same math with the 8-4, which is why I provided a correct example below the 'fixed' version. You can't do a direct comparison if you count the first round in one example and skip it in another.

Khazrakh
05-21-2014, 06:23 AM
But you didn't use that same math with the 8-4, which is why I provided a correct example below the 'fixed' version. You can't do a direct comparison if you count the first round in one example and skip it in another.

I didn't skip it in the second example? 25% chance to lose in round 1 + 25% chance to lose in round 2 equals 50% chance to get to the final - the same math I used in example 1, I just did round 1 and round 2 in one step because you won't win anything in both rounds.
The math is still:

25% of the time you win nothing because you lose in round 1.
25% of the time you win nothing because you lose in round 2.
25% of the time you win 4 packs because you lost the final.
25% of the time you win 8 packs because you won the final.

0.25*0 + 0.25*0 + 0.25*4 + 0.25*8 = 3
or
((0 + 0 + 4 + 8)/4)

It's the same math :)

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 06:37 AM
I actually may have messed that up. My bad. Still, you have to have an exceptional win rate to make 8-4 worth more than 5-3-2-2. If you were to put a bunch of results side by side, you would be far more likely to break even with 5-3-2-2 than 8-4 unless your win rate was extraordinary.

Khazrakh
05-21-2014, 06:47 AM
I actually may have messed that up. My bad. Still, you have to have an exceptional win rate to make 8-4 worth more than 5-3-2-2. If you were to put a bunch of results side by side, you would be far more likely to break even with 5-3-2-2 than 8-4 unless your win rate was extraordinary.

That's what the 8-4 queue is all about though - it's the place where the most competitive meet to battle it out. Most players will be better suited in the 5-3-2-2 or even the more casual Swiss queue but that doesn't mean that there aren't the guys who want to maximise their winnings.
Cory already stated that they want to develop a real competitive e-sports scene - that will only come to happen if you offer competitive payout models in return - both for constructed and for limited ;)

And there you have it Past-Khazrakh not wanting to transform this thread into a payout structure discussion :)

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 06:53 AM
That's what the 8-4 queue is all about though - it's the place where the most competitive meet to battle it out. Most players will be better suited in the 5-3-2-2 or even the more casual Swiss queue but that doesn't mean that there aren't the guys who want to maximise their winnings.
Cory already stated that they want to develop a real competitive e-sports scene - that will only come to happen if you offer competitive payout models in return - both for constructed and for limited ;)

And there you have it Past-Khazrakh not wanting to transform this thread into a payout structure discussion :)

I still think it isn't going to be worth it for 99% of players. If the 1% of razor edge players duke it out in there all the time, 75% of them are still going to be paying for plat more often than not. I don't think that is really maximizing profits, but hey, thats just me. I am still in the plus in boosters (partially thanks to free draft tickets) in 5-3-2-2, and I am improving with every draft. I still don't see myself 'graduating' to 8-4 and denying myself a margin for error.

Khazrakh
05-21-2014, 06:57 AM
I'm doing quite well with 5-3-2-2 myself right now don't get me wrong and having Swiss seems to be much more important to me than having 8-4 and, while I hate to admit that, there's a reason why MTGO offers 8-4 - there are people wo prefer the all-or-nothing-way.

Anyway, once Hex has millions of active users I guess there will be enough people avaible for every kind of queue :)

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 07:00 AM
I'm doing quite well with 5-3-2-2 myself right now don't get me wrong and having Swiss seems to be much more important to me than having 8-4 and, while I hate to admit that, there's a reason why MTGO offers 8-4 - there are people wo prefer the all-or-nothing-way.

Anyway, once Hex has millions of active users I guess there will be enough people avaible for every kind of queue :)

Thats true, when we have so many people that queues are firing constantly in swiss and 5-3-2-2, then sure, add 8-4. But I don't think it is a priority, and I think there is a good chance it will be the least played one (except when people use free draft tickets, since that is basically no-risk.)

Khazrakh
05-21-2014, 07:07 AM
Thats true, when we have so many people that queues are firing constantly in swiss and 5-3-2-2, then sure, add 8-4. But I don't think it is a priority, and I think there is a good chance it will be the least played one (except when people use free draft tickets, since that is basically no-risk.)

Yeah I'm pretty sure 8-4 will see the least runs but it caters to a considerable part of the major spenders, so I guess it'll still be worth to have it.

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 07:11 AM
Yeah I'm pretty sure 8-4 will see the least runs but it caters to a considerable part of the major spenders, so I guess it'll still be worth to have it.

Can't argue with that logic, its flawless! :D

Khazrakh
05-21-2014, 07:12 AM
Can't argue with that logic, its flawless! :D

Woooh!

So back to topic then:
Gief Swiss :D

meetthefuture
05-21-2014, 07:16 AM
When swiss is out we can finally replace this boring 5-3-2-2 with that 8-4-nothing that we were promised to have from the start :)

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 07:22 AM
When swiss is out we can finally replace this boring 5-3-2-2 with that 8-4-nothing that we were promised to have from the start :)

Tsk tsk, poking fun at me are we? :p In that case, I smell funny and look like a huge nerd.

Khazrakh
05-21-2014, 07:35 AM
Nooooooooooooo! :p

Barkam
05-21-2014, 11:46 AM
I love the 5-3-2-2 payout structure.

Rendakor
05-21-2014, 12:32 PM
5-3-2-2 is my ideal payout too. Swiss doesn't pay enough, and if I get a bad deck I want to be done and just draft again.

Philomorph
05-21-2014, 02:52 PM
Cory stated that Swiss is/was bugged and kept matching you to the guy you played before so I guess it will be up once they figure that out.
It's just that it would be a great time to do so with all the new people coming to Hex ;)

Yeah, I wasn't referring specifically to booster draft swiss, but rather to the current prize spread and incentive structure. If everyone is only playing draft because the feel like it has the best reward ratios then that's a flaw in the system. I was just wondering if they are leaving it that way on purpose because it nets them more booster purchases, or if it's because they just haven't had the bandwidth to change it up so the other available formats (sealed and constructed) are as attractive.

Philomorph
05-21-2014, 02:57 PM
5-3-2-2 is my ideal payout too. Swiss doesn't pay enough, and if I get a bad deck I want to be done and just draft again.

If you get a bad deck and just want to be done with it, you can still just drop out of swiss. I don't see the problem.

FYI - I also like the 5-3-2-2 payout when I want to play that kind. I would never bother with an 8-4 payout because I'm not competitive enough, so I'd want to keep the former format.

But I generally prefer a swiss draft because I'm actually playing for FUN, not just prizes. I like being able to play more than 2 games if my deck ends up being very poorly matched against my first opponent.

I've played quite a few swiss drafts of MTG over the years where I lost the first round and won quite a few others, ending up in the top half. These were generally larger than 8 players, of course, but the idea is the same. I dislike being eliminated so early because the "reward for payment" for me isn't in the cards I get as much as the fun I have playing the games and trying to beat all other people with similarly cobbled together draft decks :)

The_Wine_Gnat
05-21-2014, 08:25 PM
Now with the tournaments still being down there's no knowing for sure, but right now there only is the 5-3-2-2 drafting queue and to be honest, in my opinion that is a great mistake.
I got to play 2 draft tournaments on saturday and in both of my first rounds I got paired against somebody that obviously didn't have much experience with the game or drafts in general. They picked bad cards, chump attacked into my guys, made a lot of bad plays in general and so on.

Now that's a good thing for me obviously as I got into the next round without too much of a hassle, but it's in no way good for the guys I played and it's not healthy for the game as a whole. Those guys paid 7$/a draft ticket to play the draft and got completely steamrolled withoug knowing what happened to them.
Those guys should be in the Swiss Queue where not only they get to play 3 rounds no matter how they fare but also get to play against other newbies (which in no way is meant to be insulting, everybody had to start once). Right now they'll probably draft again one or two times and then give up frustrated about always losing first round.

So tl;dr: Please bringt back the Swiss Queue as a second option for drafting ASAP ;)

+1!!!! I've played three drafts and lost all three 0-2. Utter defeat. I've read the forums, watched the videos, practiced in alpha, and still slaughtered. No me gusta. No drafts for me until I can try swiss. (I love to draft, but it's honestly no fun getting steam rolled and being out in round one consistently).

Valentari
05-22-2014, 05:53 PM
I am all for this as well. I've not played Hex since Alpha switched to Beta and swiss was removed. I'm willing to buy packs, but Hex isn't getting any additional money from me until Swiss is re-added.

Werlix
05-22-2014, 06:16 PM
+1 for Swiss! I want to play three rounds with my deck :)

register50
05-23-2014, 12:30 AM
+1 for Swiss! 1906

Zaxian
05-23-2014, 06:04 AM
Still waiting on swiss here too... In fact, it's driven me to play Hearthstone arena mode to get my low-risk drafting fix! Of all things! Quick, Hex, introduce swiss drafts and rescue me from this mediocrity! :P

Rendakor
05-23-2014, 08:07 AM
This is why we don't have swiss draft yet:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=35953