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View Full Version : One of these Champions is not like the other Champions



Axle
04-28-2014, 05:53 PM
One Eye Open affects your entire board and should be treated differently because of this. It should probably be changed to cost 4 or 5..maybe even just changed to do something else. I've been meaning to make this thread for awhile. I'm being a bit preemptive here I know, but you might as well get the change out of the way now. Readying all of your exhaust effect cards on the board is the most abusable and strongest of the charge abilities. It saw play with Puck, Droo and Howling Brave already but will continue to get stronger as more of the effects enter the game. It's definitely the most likely to gain mass card advantage of the charge powers. The others charge powers only really affect one card and that is why they're fine. Some create bodies that can be sacrificed or help their tribe, some draw 1 card, some destroy/change 1 card but in the proper deck One Eye has the power to do far more than those for far less a charge cost.

Once the champion has unfair early game interaction with whatever the new cards that break it are (since it only costs 3), the associated deck would continue to be toxic and ruin tournaments until the nerf patch. Why wait until then?
http://i.imgur.com/peqgJny.png

funktion
04-28-2014, 05:56 PM
I disagree.

Axle
04-28-2014, 05:58 PM
Thanks for the input. I'd like to add onto my original post that judging this effect based on the current card pool only and not the fact that it limits design of future cards is incredibly short sighted.

Gwaer
04-28-2014, 05:59 PM
Cause I really don't expect it to be that strong. Puck and droo are really the abuse cases here. It hasn't been abused thus far. And CZE never said anything about champ nerfs if it proves to be a problem at some point in the future.

Also, PVP champs will rotate out of the game eventually, and new champs will be added at times, why change something that is working now, when it can be easily changed if it proves to be a problem.

hex_colin
04-28-2014, 06:00 PM
One Eye Open is affects your entire board and should be treated differently because of this. It should probably be changed to cost 4 or 5..maybe even just changed to do something else. I've been meaning to make this thread for awhile. I'm being a bit preemptive here I know, but you might as well get the change out of the way now. Readying all of your exhaust effect cards on the board is the most abusable and strongest of the charge abilities. It saw play with Puck, Droo and Howling Brave already but will continue to get stronger as more of the effects enter the game. It's definitely the most likely to gain mass card advantage of the charge powers. The others charge powers only really affect one card and that is why they're fine. Some create bodies that can be sacrificed or help their tribe, some draw 1 card, some destroy/change 1 card but in the proper deck One Eye has the power to do far more than those for far less a charge cost.

Once the champion has unfair early game interaction with whatever the new cards that break it are (since it only costs 3), the associated deck would continue to be toxic and ruin tournaments until the nerf patch. Why wait until then?
http://i.imgur.com/peqgJny.png

What makes you think Champions will exist forever? Or they they won't rotate out with Sets and Blocks?

Axle
04-28-2014, 06:01 PM
I guess they could change it as the new cards are released, but I'm not in the developers heads and don't know whether or not they are aware of the potential strength and am willing to make a thread just to make sure.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 06:02 PM
Well, since champs are going to cycle, chances are that it will be gone before enough troublesome cards will be legal. As it stands, it is barely good, and is only really abusable for extra resources or free draws.

Considering that a lot of charge powers are as powerful or more powerful that those minor effects (although Puck with one eye open is very strong) I think that right now this doesn't warrant much thought.

Set 2 and onwards, perhaps. But it seems highly unlikely that there will ever be a mono shard deck that is broken with one eye open, and most dual shard ones will be combo anyway, which has its own inherent weaknesses.

I understand the concerns, obviously, but I have truly seen a small minority of decks using it as a champion. If anything, Wyatt is a much larger problem.

Axle
04-28-2014, 06:06 PM
Wyatt is only stronger if charge gaining becomes stronger, but that's something you have to balance for every single champion and is not tied to Wyatt alone. I forgot champions rotate but having 2 years of sets and no powerful self exhaust effects yet seems unlikely.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 06:09 PM
Wyatt is only stronger if charge gaining becomes stronger, but that's something you have to balance for every single champion and is not tied to Wyatt alone.

Wyatt isn't hard to splash though - it goes in Saph/X almost every time. And its just a plain good effect. Hardly abusable, (yet) but certainly one of the most powerful champions and most overused for sure.

hex_colin
04-28-2014, 06:12 PM
Wyatt is only stronger if charge gaining becomes stronger, but that's something you have to balance for every single champion and is not tied to Wyatt alone.

Charges and ways to get extra charges are definitely more prevalent in Set 2. Maybe. If nothing has changed... ;)

Axle
04-28-2014, 06:15 PM
This isn't a discussion of current balance but rather a warning for future balance. I made it pretty clear in my original post that I'm not talking about OEO as it is now but in future sets. I still find it incredibly likely that within the next 2 years multi-color will be become significantly more consistent (Remember the multi-color shard on the auction house preview in the kickstarter?) and color mixing with OEO and some powerful self exhaust abilities will make something very strong. I suppose I'm not really asking the champion to be changed now, but for the developers to not forget about it when they are designing future sets and hit it before it makes a toxic impact.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 06:21 PM
And potentially drawing free cards each turn isn't going to be an issue, if not broken entirely? Trust me, control matchups with Wyatt going off every turn are going to be painful.

I don't deny OEO has the potential, but several champs do. Wyatt is a contender, as is Kranok (depending), and likely Bun'jitsu for massive troops (especially if there are ways to enhance those big beaters.)

But without the right cards there, OEO is probably the weakest, followed by Bun'jitsu, then Kranok (could be 1st if you can spare the health) and Wyatt as the top merc of the 4 most likely for abuse.

Although Tetzot already has a fun charge ramp resource deck themed around him already, that could be potentially broken later.

knightofeffect
04-28-2014, 06:29 PM
I'd agree that right now OEO has the easiest and most powerful abuse cases, with the aforementioned droo and acceleration being the obvious offenders. I like it, think it makes for neat decks, and it think it is pretty good in limited as well in several cases. I think its fine where it is, but don't think a bump to three would be ridiculous either.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 06:40 PM
I'd agree that right now OEO has the easiest and most powerful abuse cases, with the aforementioned droo and acceleration being the obvious offenders. I like it, think it makes for neat decks, and it think it is pretty good in limited as well in several cases. I think its fine where it is, but don't think a bump to three would be ridiculous either.

It already costs 3 charges...

Axle
04-28-2014, 06:45 PM
Likely he meant to say four.

Xenavire
04-28-2014, 06:52 PM
Likely he meant to say four.

I thought so, but still.

4 isn't really great for OEO. In a non-abuse deck, 3 is already fairly steep. And it tends to not even be needed. But I can see the argument from both sides, and I wouldn't argue it if it was needed.

ossuary
04-28-2014, 08:15 PM
Wyatt isn't hard to splash though - it goes in Saph/X almost every time. And its just a plain good effect. Hardly abusable, (yet) but certainly one of the most powerful champions and most overused for sure.

Hint: Wyatt + Shrines of Prosperity. Even easier to get 4x in an artifact-heavy deck, thanks to Doppelgadget. 4 Shrines = every resource gives you a free extra draw. :)

ossuary
04-28-2014, 08:17 PM
Also, it's laughable that people are suggesting readying Droo for THREE CHARGES is overpowered and broken, considering Dwarven Turbine will ready him for 1 resource. :p

The developers clearly intended for there to be fun ways to not have to pay life to ready Droo when they designed him. It's a very common trope in card games to have cards with big disadvantages that can be partially nullified with clever deckbuilding.

Axle
04-28-2014, 08:35 PM
No one said it was overpowered with Droo. No one said the current interaction was what is wrong. All that was listed is current uses that makes it relevant. I would also never compare an actual card to a champion ability because champions are something that persist as free card advantage and are present in every game. People love to nitpick on the smaller picture though. It's great.

ossuary
04-28-2014, 08:40 PM
Only with people who continually insist on snidely dismissing other peoples' points in their responses. :)

Axle
04-28-2014, 08:43 PM
You had a point?

stiii
04-28-2014, 08:53 PM
Also, it's laughable that people are suggesting readying Droo for THREE CHARGES is overpowered and broken, considering Dwarven Turbine will ready him for 1 resource. :p

The developers clearly intended for there to be fun ways to not have to pay life to ready Droo when they designed him. It's a very common trope in card games to have cards with big disadvantages that can be partially nullified with clever deckbuilding.

This is such a terrible example on so many level. This is not what Axle is saying at all.

Your points deserve to be snidely dismissed when they are this incorrect.

funktion
04-28-2014, 09:02 PM
So then if you're not talking about the game as is, instead what could potentially happen much later... if this is literally the only thing which is overpowered by then they have definitely been doing something wrong. There should be tons of overpowered things to do if you're going to have access to all the cards at once.

The argument that he's OP now is invalid as is one down the line. Worry about things once they get there rather than saying, "The sky may or may not be falling x years from now."

dogmod
04-28-2014, 09:12 PM
Oh wow this is like a giant cesspool of people who clearly know more than the people who made the game and aren't afraid to tell everyone else how dumb they are... I think I should jump in...

Axle
04-28-2014, 09:16 PM
. if this is literally the only thing which is overpowered by then they have definitely been doing something wrong. There should be tons of overpowered things to do if you're going to have access to all the cards at once.

Please clarify what this means? The game should have power creep?


. if this is literally the only thing which is overpowered by then they have definitely been doing something wrong. There should be tons of overpowered things to do if you're going to have access to all the cards at once.

To me it seems pretty likely an entire type of card (cards that exhaust to use an ability) will become strong enough to interact with the champion in an improper way down the line. Even readying two troops with powerful exhaust abilities is strong use of it surpasses the other charge powers in a single activation. Worrying about it later means a week of tournaments or more (depends on whether they do in-house testing on the change) being ruined by a deck that everyone hurries out to buy only for it to become destroyed by a champion changing. Hurts consumer confidence in that sense I guess?

X deck is introduced into the meta
people buy cards for x deck
CZE reworks y champion because cards were never designed to be spammed in mass (ex: untapping 3 cards) without requiring using another card. Since champions are free and persistent in every game, I dunno if I'd really consider it a combo.
People are now incredibly annoyed with their purchase

Isn't that customer reaction similar to the entire point of never nerfing cards once they are released? It's better to react before it happens.

funktion
04-28-2014, 10:42 PM
@Axle: To clarify what I'm talking about is not in regards to power creep in any way. Power creep is generally used to describe the power level of INDIVIDUAL cards increasing over time.

What I'm talking about is much more akin to vintage. Once there are 10 sets out I'm sure you'll be able to pull a card from set 1 3 and 7 and all the sudden have some bonkers combo interaction. Most likely something way stronger than anything you could pull off with One Eye.

Champions are likely to rotate in and out, but even more likely is that there will be various formats and there won't be ONLY one sanctioned constructed format that contains all of the cards available.

I don't see what the problem is.

Oh one last note in regards to the nerfing comment. Nerfing champions / gems where all players have equal and uninhibited access I can't see any reason not to adjust them if they're not fitting the intended design goals and there turn out to be unforeseen consequences.

Eierdotter
04-29-2014, 01:23 AM
CZE put already some thought into this champ, OEO is in diamond, the shard with the least abuse possibilities.
good potential combos are in wild/sapphire/ruby, so to use this power you have to splash diamond only for the champion.

If too strong combos get enabled with future sets there is always the potential change to ready 1 troop for 2 charges or all troops for 4 charges.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 02:08 AM
@Oss Re: Wyatt. The issue (for now) with shrines, is that it takes a lot of dedication, and slots that control needs for other things. I bet in set 2 it will be more optimal.

Man, I love shrine though. And dopplegadget.

Zomnivore
04-29-2014, 02:17 AM
Guys chill... CZE has all sorts of space to play with this stuff, and champions.

They can kill this champion forever and ever and replace her with a nerfed one eventually if they need to.

Its that simple.

So, for right now this is a problem with an efficient solution, that doesn't need a big huge debate. If its a problem sometime down the line, they have all the space they need (I believe they even reserved the right to balance champions post launch) to fix things.