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Cory_Jones
04-29-2014, 10:46 AM
We have several threads in the forum about Gameforge, specifically how Gameforge is handling / marketing HEX.

Let me start off with a couple of statements. Nobody is taking over HEX. One person makes the decisions on how this game is developed, priced, and marketed: that person is me. Ask anyone that knows me and they will attest that the only thing that would remove me from HEX is drawing my last breath. I have too much of myself vested in this game to ever walk away.

Gameforge has actually been a VERY good partner. I know I have seen complaints about Gameforge and their past interactions with players, but I think you would be hard pressed to find ANY publisher that doesn’t have a group of people that dislike them. In the end I HAD to bring in someone to help us, we simply could not do it ourselves.

With that said, I picked Gameforge because they believed in the vision of HEX. They believed in the game and me enough to sign a contract that left me in total control of the game, something I don’t think they have ever done in the past. Beyond that, they have sunk a tremendous amount of resources into the game, which includes hiring a group of people that just work on HEX. I have zero complaints with Gameforge, they have lived up to every promise they made regarding HEX. Has everything been perfect? No, but that’s to be expected. Has Gameforge worked quickly to fix or change systems to be what we need? YES, and that’s the real key. I don’t expect ANY of this to be perfect right at the beginning but if all have the same goals and work toward that future we can make it happen.

Let’s talk about the marketing stuff a bit…

I want HEX to be huge, and I think you want that also. The more players we have the quicker the draft queue goes off (I want to wait 30 seconds, not 30 minutes to draft). More players gives us more money to spend on Esports and prize support (I want to sell out the Staples center just like LOL). The more players the bigger budget I have for game designers, engineers, and artists (wouldn’t it be amazing to get Brom for a piece of card art?).

Remember, we made a VERY “core” game; we didn’t make a simplified version of a TCG so the largest possible audience could jump in and start playing in a couple of minutes. We left real barriers to entry in place, because we designed the game we want to PLAY, not the game we thought would SELL, and that game we wanted to play was deep and complex. When it comes to getting new players into the game, we are going to have to be aggressive and smart. I believe that, buried in the tens of millions of players currently in the Gameforge system, we have some people that would LOVE HEX and could be amazing members of our community and huge wins for us as a group. And if “try it out puzzles” or the chance to earn a little platinum filling out surveys is the key to getting them in our game, I think that is a price we should be willing to pay.

I also want to point out that we have been trying to build a “global” community. Sadly, at times that objective is entirely counter-intuitive to what an individual player may want, so it becomes a balancing act. Some parts of the world pay for online games in VERY different ways, so in an effort to keep everything fair we may be sacrificing any chance of success in those markets. That’s the primary reason behind gated communities, that and several regulatory issues in some cases making it impossible.

I have said it over and over, this is not going to be smooth, and its not going to be easy, but at least you can rest assured that it will be going in the right direction (assuming you trust my vision for this game).

WOW that was long... can this count as a Blog post... :)

hex_colin
04-29-2014, 10:49 AM
Tl; dr ;)

No, you can't count it as a blog post. Get typing! ;)

bojanglesz
04-29-2014, 10:49 AM
but tournaments

Cory_Jones
04-29-2014, 10:50 AM
I should add...

I will be wrong, and OFTEN, I am far from perfect, but if things are going wrong I will step in quickly to fix them.

we have done it over and over again on goofy ideas I have had, like making it impossible to trade mercenaries

and in that spirit, lets make another change...

you CAN stack the one year of free draft from the other 250.00 tiers, rather than force you to make several accounts you can put them all on one account. :)

ryuukan
04-29-2014, 10:51 AM
Can you get the mac version in sync please

it's still not updated

Daer
04-29-2014, 10:52 AM
you CAN stack the one year of free draft from the other 250.00 tiers, rather than force you to make several accounts you can put them all on one account. :)

I wish I knew that before yesterday....

parogui
04-29-2014, 10:54 AM
Yay for stacking drafts!!!

Hexgo
04-29-2014, 10:55 AM
Wow, thats good news all!
The only thing left is: "Yes Hexgo you CAN keep your name!"
<3
:)

Cory_Jones
04-29-2014, 10:55 AM
Can you get the mac version in sync please

it's still not updated

it will be up today

hex_colin
04-29-2014, 10:56 AM
I wish I knew that before yesterday....

Put in a ticket? :)

Shustro
04-29-2014, 10:56 AM
Thanks Cory, you are awesome leader.

Shustro
04-29-2014, 10:57 AM
and mercs from KS rewards? Stacks?

MrSeriousBsns
04-29-2014, 10:58 AM
Great post, Cory, which really frames the issues Gameforge has been catching flak for.

I think a sold out Staples center would be amazing and is something everyone here is really hoping for!

Marsden
04-29-2014, 10:58 AM
you CAN stack the one year of free draft from the other 250.00 tiers, rather than force you to make several accounts you can put them all on one account. :)

OOoooooooh. I might dump my second account then.

Does that include stacking with lifetime?

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 10:59 AM
I should add...

I will be wrong, and OFTEN, I am far from perfect, but if things are going wrong I will step in quickly to fix them.

we have done it over and over again on goofy ideas I have had, like making it impossible to trade mercenaries

and in that spirit, lets make another change...

you CAN stack the one year of free draft from the other 250.00 tiers, rather than force you to make several accounts you can put them all on one account. :)

That last part would have been very useful for people to know, as I was just gifted a year of free drafts from a guild member who might have wanted to keep it, and I already redeemed it, not knowing this was even a possibility. I really hope he doesn't mind, or there will be hell to pay...

Can you also comment about the other thread topic, with gameforge offering links to sponsors in exchange for platinum? It seems like a poor idea and a bad business practice.

Khazrakh
04-29-2014, 10:59 AM
All I have to say is: Thank you Cory! I really REALLY needed this post :)

ossuary
04-29-2014, 11:00 AM
Cory,

Thanks for the response. Can you please comment on the concerns people have brought up from the "survey" plat sources about the spam, the scams, and the people not actually getting the rewards they are trading their personal info for?

I'm not (as such) concerned about the existence of surveys or the ability for someone to acquire a very small amount of free platinum as a marketing endeavor, I'm much more concerned about the severe sketchyness and bad vibe-itude of the current offering. :)

nicosharp
04-29-2014, 11:01 AM
you CAN stack the one year of free draft from the other 250.00 tiers, rather than force you to make several accounts you can put them all on one account. :)
Okay, I love you again.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 11:01 AM
Cory,

Thanks for the response. Can you please comment on the concerns people have brought up from the "survey" plat sources about the spam, the scams, and the people not actually getting the rewards they are trading their personal info for?

I'm not (as such) concerned about the existence of surveys or the ability for someone to acquire a very small amount of free platinum as a marketing endeavor, I'm much more concerned about the severe sketchyness and bad vibe-itude of the current offering. :)

Thinking alike.. Whats that saying again? :D

ossuary
04-29-2014, 11:01 AM
Hey Xen, been meaning to ask you for awhile... can I join your guild? I want free draft gifts too. ;) :p

ryuukan
04-29-2014, 11:03 AM
it will be up today

Please try to issue them simultaneously in the future. I don't think it would be fair to lock people out of events/tourneys because they're waiting on a patch that other players have already.

Khazrakh
04-29-2014, 11:04 AM
Taken from a Tweet a few minutes ago:


Hey Mac users. We're a few hours out from making the Mac client live. Sorry! In the future, we'll have PC/Mac client patches concurrent.

hex_colin
04-29-2014, 11:04 AM
Please try to issue them simultaneously in the future. I don't think it would be fair to lock people out of events/tourneys because they're waiting on a patch that other players have already.

They just posted in Twitter that all future releases would be concurrent.

Also, just so it's clear - I use Macs too. I want the Mac patch as much as everyone else. But I have the Windows version on Parallels just in case - wouldn't want to not be able to play if I wanted to. ;)

Edit; I was too late ;)

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 11:04 AM
Hey Xen, been meaning to ask you for awhile... can I join your guild? I want free draft gifts too. ;) :p

Of course you can join, but it was a very generous member who happened to have one 'spare'... Although it looks like it isn't 'spare' anymore, which makes me feel incredibly guilty. I am working hard to be a fair and conscientious guild leader, and I had been holding off on accepting that code all week, only to cave late last night...

I feel like a massive dick. :(

ossuary
04-29-2014, 11:06 AM
Why not contact CZE and see if they can disable the code on your account and reissue it? Since they just now reversed their policy on stacking, they are probably going to have some requests to do this anyway... it seems like a reasonable request to me. It's not like you've been able to redeem any of the drafts yet, afterall. :)

Quasari
04-29-2014, 11:06 AM
Xenavire, from all your interactions on the forums, I can confirm you are far from being a dick... At least online:)

Cory_Jones
04-29-2014, 11:07 AM
Hi Xenavire and Ossuary :)

I have been assured that the services linked to "free" platinum are trusted providers and should be fine, clearly if we find out that is not the case we will discontinue it immediately. Also, that platinum isn't free, the sponsor pays for it, so it ends up back in the HEX ecosystem.

Let me also be clear this sort of thing may not be for you... and if that is the case please don't do it! I wouldn't, but I think there may be players out there that like this sort of thing, and if that's the case I am willing to give it a try.

Rapkannibale
04-29-2014, 11:08 AM
Thanks for the info Cory. It's much appreciated! I can sleep safe and sound tonight knowing that Cory is and will always be watching over Hex. :)

Poetic
04-29-2014, 11:08 AM
Damnit, knew I should have waited on using my second free year on my 2nd account. I just want one account. Guess I'll give a ticket a try.

Great post though Cory, I love your passion for the game and fully trust in your vision. I want to be here celebrating a 10 year anniversary one day.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 11:09 AM
Why not contact CZE and see if they can disable the code on your account and reissue it? Since they just now reversed their policy on stacking, they are probably going to have some requests to do this anyway... it seems like a reasonable request to me. It's not like you've been able to redeem any of the drafts yet, afterall. :)

I have to talk with the guild member first to see if he wants it back. I had told him he could keep it for a second account, etc, and he seemed keen to just get rid of it, but circumstances have changed... I will definitely be doing that if he wants the code back though.

And Quasari - I have my bad moments, just like anyone, but I felt immoral accepting a gift as a guild leader anyway, and now this... I feel so guilty I would welcome a swift kick in the nads.

ossuary
04-29-2014, 11:11 AM
Swift kicks are no big deal. It's the "grazing" kicks that hurt the worst, because for a couple of seconds, you think it might have missed you, until the pain suddenly "kicks" in. ;)

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 11:11 AM
Hi Xenavire and Ossuary :)

I have been assured that the services linked to "free" platinum are trusted providers and should be fine, clearly if we find out that is not the case we will discontinue it immediately. Also, that platinum isn't free, the sponsor pays for it, so it ends up back in the HEX ecosystem.

Let me also be clear this sort of thing may not be for you... and if that is the case please don't do it! I wouldn't, but I think there may be players out there that like this sort of thing, and if that's the case I am willing to give it a try.

Fair enough. I dislike the image it creates, but I know people who would use it. As long as the plat is accounted for and players aren't scammed, I can live with it. Thanks for taking the time to answer. :)

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 11:12 AM
Swift kicks are no big deal. It's the "grazing" kicks that hurt the worst, because for a couple of seconds, you think it might have missed you, until the pain suddenly "kicks" in. ;)

You sound like an expert on the subject... Pissed off the missus one too many times? Repeatedly? :p

Makizushi
04-29-2014, 11:16 AM
And if “try it out puzzles” or the chance to earn a little platinum filling out surveys is the key to getting them in our game, I think that is a price we should be willing to pay.
While I personally would not decide that way, I find myself happy and reassured that you yourself are so adamant about your opinion. That counts for a lot. So thank you Cory, for addressing our worries in such a direct fashion.

primer
04-29-2014, 11:18 AM
Soooo 6 month old exchange rates?

Kroan
04-29-2014, 11:18 AM
I have to be honest, my biggest fear would be Cory walking away from this project ever. He's the man that spoke to me first about Hex through a bizarre intro video and I've come to respect him, even though I never met him! Him saying he'll stay until his last breath is all I could hope for!

Makizushi
04-29-2014, 11:19 AM
They just posted in Twitter that all future releases would be concurrent.

Also, just so it's clear - I use Macs too. I want the Mac patch as much as everyone else. But I have the Windows version on Parallels just in case - wouldn't want to not be able to play if I wanted to. ;)

You can run it using PlayOnMac as well. Works a treat and doesn't need a full Windows install :)

DuroNL
04-29-2014, 11:22 AM
Thnx Cory, this took away my doubt in GameForge...

Lets make this game the best Online experience ever!!!

Good luck to the engineers on the Tourney servers :D i know they are working hard !! cheers!!!

YourOpponent
04-29-2014, 11:25 AM
Fair enough. I dislike the image it creates, but I know people who would use it. As long as the plat is accounted for and players aren't scammed, I can live with it. Thanks for taking the time to answer. :)

That is how I feel too.

Cernz
04-29-2014, 11:25 AM
such informations are always good for the community, it dont always have to be
super mega news, just some short posts about some stuff increases the atmosphere
a lot ;)

keep on feeding us with short news in future, even if its not that great :)

EntropyBall
04-29-2014, 11:26 AM
Cory, you are great. Every time I read your blog or hear one of your interviews, it renews and re-ups my faith/excitement for this game. Having such a clearly passionate gamer behind a gaming company is awesome.

I was a little worried about how PVE was going, but your latest blog post put me at ease and made me look forward to the PVE content even more than before.

Chiany
04-29-2014, 11:28 AM
you CAN stack the one year of free draft from the other 250.00 tiers, rather than force you to make several accounts you can put them all on one account. :)

Bit late with that, having given away 1 code because they didn't stack :(

ossuary
04-29-2014, 11:28 AM
You sound like an expert on the subject... Pissed off the missus one too many times? Repeatedly? :p

Nope, but two kids. You get well versed in the many forms of "unintentional" nad-kicking, over the years. ;)

Shinjica
04-29-2014, 11:30 AM
Thanks Cory For your explanation.

I've only one thing to ask about Gamesforge. Can you please tell them to stop give small quanttiy of platinium if players give them their information?

This a cheap and really low level move from theirs and i'm pretty sure it will hurt HEX at the end.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 11:31 AM
Nope, but two kids. You get well versed in the many forms of "unintentional" nad-kicking, over the years. ;)

Remind me to buy a sports cup the minute I start trying to procreate. Although, having younger sisters, I am not entirely unfamiliar with the sensation.

b1uepenguin
04-29-2014, 11:31 AM
They just posted in Twitter that all future releases would be concurrent.

Also, just so it's clear - I use Macs too. I want the Mac patch as much as everyone else. But I have the Windows version on Parallels just in case - wouldn't want to not be able to play if I wanted to. ;)

Edit; I was too late ;)

Was wondering why I couldn't update!

Svenn
04-29-2014, 11:32 AM
Hi Xenavire and Ossuary :)

I have been assured that the services linked to "free" platinum are trusted providers and should be fine, clearly if we find out that is not the case we will discontinue it immediately. Also, that platinum isn't free, the sponsor pays for it, so it ends up back in the HEX ecosystem.

Let me also be clear this sort of thing may not be for you... and if that is the case please don't do it! I wouldn't, but I think there may be players out there that like this sort of thing, and if that's the case I am willing to give it a try.
As someone who has been using these types of sites for years... they are only "trusted providers" in that the company running it will pay up sometimes. The offers are all very shady and potentially harmful. The links, downloads, and signups will try to get as much personal info as possible (not to steal anything necessarily, but for serious spamming... I have an email that's a few months old with over 6k spam emails from using one of these sites with it). The downloads are riddled with spyware/malware. The links make you jump through hoops and often don't even tell you what those hoops are. And then once you do finish a task they only pay out about 1/3 of the time (usually due to some complicated special steps you need to actually get the thing to credit that they don't really inform you of). That's just the nature of this type of thing.

If you know what you are doing, though, you can navigate these without too much risk. I've been successful with it and earned quite a bit from these types of offers. Unfortunately, most people that see this as an option for Hex will not know what they are doing and will end up with PCs full of malware, their real address and email addresses full of spam, and get overly frustrated that they are completing tasks and not getting credited. It is probably not something you want associated with Hex, and is more likely to drive people away than it is to bring people in I think.

ossuary
04-29-2014, 11:46 AM
I was curious, so I logged in and checked out the offers. I found one that wanted my full address, mobile phone number (had to receive a paid text message to validate the account), and they were going to reward me with 0.24 platinum. That's right - ALMOST a whole a quarter of a cent. ;)

Jacklau89
04-29-2014, 11:50 AM
Hi Cory I can see that you are reading this thread, which I would like to take this opportunity to ask THE question once again. I believe many would like to know and thank you for taking your time to answer these.

Could you explain how the walled garden system works (i.e. by IP or one-off registration?), possibility for us to choose our own server, when will it the walled garden be implemented, as well as what will happen to our current card collections and platinum if we are somehow forced to switch between servers in future?

mudkip
04-29-2014, 11:55 AM
...if “try it out puzzles” or the chance to earn a little platinum filling out surveys is the key to getting them in our game, I think that is a price we should be willing to pay.

Cory, have you seen any evidence of this sales tactic actually working in a way that would support your goals? Giving out samples doesn't build brand appeal - it builds fleeting interest. Get a real marketer on your side instead of these mercenary salesmen!

I feel that the best way to build your brand would be not to resort to cheap tactics that devalue the in-game currency. I am one player that fell in love with your version of "Free to play." Your version went against what the mobile industry has done to turn the phrase into something dirty.

This free sample crap along with the "XX.99" pricing has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Makizushi
04-29-2014, 12:00 PM
To offer some experiences from another online TCG: Shadow Era also has these "earn free crystals" offers (crystals are their plat) and the forums are often visited by people complaining they didn't get their payout.

Yoss
04-29-2014, 12:01 PM
Cory's the man. Princess man. ♥

Keep making it happen, Cory!

(Super excited that I can now redeem my 1-year on my PP+DC account now. Glad I waited.)

Gwaer
04-29-2014, 12:02 PM
I'm not going to lie. I've spent a lot of time traveling the world in my youth, and other countries are weird. Things that I thought were extremely rude, shady, sexist, pedopheliaish, whatever embraced with open arms as the norm. Other countries will see these offers as legit and normal. And I guess we shouldn't exclude them. But I still don't like it much myself. Best give it a chance though.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 12:09 PM
I'm not going to lie. I've spent a lot of time traveling the world in my youth, and other countries are weird. Things that I thought were extremely rude, shady, sexist, pedopheliaish, whatever embraced with open arms as the norm. Other countries will see these offers as legit and normal. And I guess we shouldn't exclude them. But I still don't like it much myself. Best give it a chance though.

These days you don't have to travel to get that kind of second hand knowledge. The experience must be neat though.

But yeah, especially internationally, it should be given a chance. But perhaps for the EU/US one, they should be either disabled or made identical, so that no player gains a significant advantage over another from it.

kazeen
04-29-2014, 12:30 PM
Yeah we want the game to big also and get that you need money, but we just hit closed beta. Lets get the game working and the pve in and tested first. When the game is launched it is all working the people will come from us telling them it is awesome. Focusing on getting money now will drive a lot of people away. Seen it happen to a lot of good games.

Lochar
04-29-2014, 12:41 PM
Cory, can you at least make Gameforge enforce SSL on your store page, since your client update today still doesn't make the Buy Platinum link point to an https webpage.

blakegrandon
04-29-2014, 01:15 PM
Hi Xenavire and Ossuary :)

I have been assured that the services linked to "free" platinum are trusted providers and should be fine, clearly if we find out that is not the case we will discontinue it immediately. Also, that platinum isn't free, the sponsor pays for it, so it ends up back in the HEX ecosystem.

Let me also be clear this sort of thing may not be for you... and if that is the case please don't do it! I wouldn't, but I think there may be players out there that like this sort of thing, and if that's the case I am willing to give it a try.

I can't stress enough that I recommend you disable it until someone actually goes through and vets the sponsors.

Sorry, but I actually tried to fill out one of the "surveys" and it was 30 minutes of pure crap.

The "survey" consisted of a bunch of switched up "questions", like Apply for this credit card here to proceed, then below it would be next page in really small print. It was not just one or two shady "applications" pretending to be surveys, it was a good 20 minutes of continuous clicking where they tried to sell me credit checks, "free" trials, downloads for "free" games, and more.

I was baffled when I went to look at it and the way it was designed was by the time you finished it if you misclicked you were getting spammed or billed a ton of stuff. The "survey" in question was NOT a survey and no plat was given at the end.

It asked for everything from billing addresses, first/last name, SS # for credit checks, and way more information. I really wish I had taken a screen shot of all the crap and hoops the "sponsor" put in, but it was the "Popeyes Survey" and not once did it ask any questions.

If you want to add surveys and sponsors to give out plat that's fine, but it needs to be vetted and the shady ones need to be eliminated.

If I was a new player I would have scratched my head and walked away wondering what kind of malware bloated game Hex is. I don't know how to make it anymore clear, the "surveys" include a ton of malware, are not actually surveys, and there appears to be no vetting. To add insult to injury at the very end of the "survey" it told me in order to finish the survey I "had" to download a questionable .exe

With that kind of quality control how long until a sponsor includes a keylogger to steal hex login information? It wouldn't surprise me if one of those "surveys" already does it, and it would be easy to piggyback that kind of program onto an "ad platform" that you have to download in order to finish the survey.

Account thieves will have a field day with surveys like this, especially from people believing that the sponsors are "trustworthy", if Hex okays these surveys then clearly they're harmless.

Sorry to be so blunt, but that was ONE experience I had with ONE survey, a lot of them looked to be very similar. To anyone out there I wouldn't touch the surveys or sponsors with a ten foot pole, hell most of them don't even say who the sponsor is!

fido_one
04-29-2014, 01:22 PM
I think Cory's explanation here speaks to the heart of the matter - CZE can't do this alone, Gameforge is demonstrating that they are a good partner.

On the other hand, I agree with Blakegrandon above, and my guess/hope is CZE and Gameforge has or will battle this issue out. With all the good things Gameforge is doing, they (and/or CZE) may be adamant about the canned selection of surveys/sponsers. Regardless this could be something that stays in the negative-element-but-thems-the-breaks-to-getting-your-game-off-the-ground on the plusses and minuses list that Cory makes when forming alliances with other businesses.

blakegrandon
04-29-2014, 01:32 PM
I think Cory's explanation here speaks to the heart of the matter - CZE can't do this alone, Gameforge is demonstrating that they are a good partner.


Agreed, I don't have an issue with Gameforge, it's the sponsors that are downright creepy and could turn people away from the game.

Cory outright stated that he would discontinue the sponsors if they turned out not to be trustworthy. I'm outright saying you can't trust a sponsor that in one survey asks you to download malware, apply for credit cards, take "free" trials, and asks for everything from your SS #, to mailing address.

Barkam
04-29-2014, 01:32 PM
Good post, Blake.

Kami
04-29-2014, 01:37 PM
Not to mention that some of these sponsors ask you for personal information before even validating that you are eligible.

Svenn
04-29-2014, 01:42 PM
For anyone not familiar with how this stuff works... Gameforge is using a service (I believe SponsorPay is the one they are using?). That service gathers all the surveys, offers, etc up and puts them up in their service. Hex/Gameforge has little to no say in what things are offered through this service.

SponsorPay is a "trusted partner"... but the surveys and offers they link to aren't very trustworthy. SponsorPay is essentially just a middleman and they do exactly what they say they'll do (and they pay up in the end). They deliver people to their advertisers and they pay back to their publishers, but the advertisers are the ones doing all the shady stuff.

So, they may be "trusted" but the offers they are linking certainly are not. That's going to come back on Hex and look bad.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 01:44 PM
SponsorPay is essentially just a middleman and they do exactly what they say they'll do (and they pay up in the end). They deliver people to their advertisers and they pay back to their publishers, but the advertisers are the ones doing all the shady stuff.

So, they may be "trusted" but the offers they are linking certainly are not. That's going to come back on Hex and look bad.

This is important to note. It doesn't matter how many middlemen there are, it is CZE that will ultimately be tarred. I would hate to see that happen because of some shady advertiser that CZE has never even had contact with.

Kami
04-29-2014, 01:46 PM
Security would be my biggest concern here considering how valuable some of our accounts will be.

So not only do they datamine enough information to potentially perform identity fraud (and thus compromise your account), they may also compromise your account via malware in some cases.

Of course, this is an extreme scenario but given the information they ask for and what they ask you to do, I would not be surprised if this occurs in the future.

Svenn
04-29-2014, 01:48 PM
Security would be my biggest concern here considering how valuable some of our accounts will be.

So not only do they datamine enough information to potentially perform identity fraud (and thus compromise your account), they may also compromise your account via malware in some cases.

Of course, this is an extreme scenario but given the information they ask for and what they ask you to do, I would not be surprised if this occurs in the future.

I wouldn't worry about your Hex info being stolen, since the advertisers are just paying for SponsorPay to advertise to whoever they like... they likely have no idea that Hex even exists. Of course, I would be worried about other things like having crazy cell phone bill charges (don't EVER give your phone number out to something you can't completely trust... you'll end up with all kinds of crazy charges), or having keyloggers stealing info for other sites, etc.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 01:49 PM
This just reinforces the idea that we need our authenticators sooner rather than later.

blakegrandon
04-29-2014, 01:52 PM
Of course, this is an extreme scenario but given the information they ask for and what they ask you to do, I would not be surprised if this occurs in the future.

I don't think it's as extreme of a scenario as people think it is. The "sponsors" are shady as hell and I've looked at quite a few that would probably compromise your computer, your account, your email address, or flat out steal your identity.

Companies like Sponsorpay are acting irresponsibly by allowing the "sponsors" to require whatever they want to require in order to "proceed".

Companies like sponsorpay might "legally" not be responsible but they sure as hell aren't doing any kind of vetting of the sponsors. It wouldn't surprise me to see an uptick on compromised accounts if sponsorpay and sponsors stick around.

Cory, have you tried to take any of the sponsors "surveys"? I have a hard time believing you'd sign off on this after taking any of their surveys from a customer point of view.

Kami
04-29-2014, 01:53 PM
I wouldn't worry about your Hex info being stolen, since the advertisers are just paying for SponsorPay to advertise to whoever they like... they likely have no idea that Hex even exists. Of course, I would be worried about other things like having crazy cell phone bill charges (don't EVER give your phone number out to something you can't completely trust... you'll end up with all kinds of crazy charges), or having keyloggers stealing info for other sites, etc.

You do realize they sell the information they datamine off you beyond just advertising right? That's how unethical marketing firms work.

Svenn
04-29-2014, 01:53 PM
Cory, have you tried to take any of the sponsors "surveys", I have a hard time believing you'd sign off on this after taking any of their surveys from a customer point of view.
That's a good idea. Cory, load up one or two of these and tell us that your mind isn't changed about it. ;)

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 01:54 PM
That's a good idea. Cory, load up one or two of these and tell us that your mind isn't changed about it. ;)

+1. I want an honest Cory post on that. Not that I dont appreciate what we already have been told.

Kami
04-29-2014, 01:55 PM
That's a good idea. Cory, load up one or two of these and tell us that your mind isn't changed about it. ;)

Please don't use your real information. The last thing we need is the CCO/President's accounts being compromised. ;)

blakegrandon
04-29-2014, 02:00 PM
Please don't use your real information. The last thing we need is the CCO/President's accounts being compromised. ;)

Reminds me of when the Lifelock CEO got his identity stolen...

Cory if you aren't willing to subject yourself to the sponsors then I beg you not to subject your user base to sponsors.

hacky
04-29-2014, 02:07 PM
Cory if you aren't willing to subject yourself to the sponsors then I beg you not to subject your user base to sponsors.

I just want to touch upon this phrase in particular.

A user that chooses to use services such as SponsorPay/TrialPay and the like, are subjecting themselves to it. No one is forcing it. It's not advertised in any of our faces. You have to discover it as an option, and choose to follow it. And if you choose to follow it, there is no one to blame for the consequences but yourself.

We can argue about the ethics of offering trial offers as an option (for the record, I'd prefer it not be an option), but even if it gets removed, people will still use these services in conjunction with Hex somehow. Just like how people attempt to buy gold, powerleveling, and items in just about any given online game.

EntropyBall
04-29-2014, 02:07 PM
Reminds me of when the Lifelock CEO got his identity stolen...

Cory if you aren't willing to subject yourself to the sponsors then I beg you not to subject your user base to sponsors.

You're missing a bit of his point here. This "feature" is not for Cory, or really most of the people on this forum. Its to try and bring in people in parts of the world where this is a more normal/expected marketing technique. He's not "subjecting" anyone to it by having it available. Most people will find that its not worth spending 20 min to get $0.25, but from the gist of his post, it sounds like this is expected/normal practice in some parts of the world.

That said, I agree that it has the potential to tarnish Hex, at least to a US audience.

Svenn
04-29-2014, 02:12 PM
You're missing a bit of his point here. This "feature" is not for Cory, or really most of the people on this forum. Its to try and bring in people in parts of the world where this is a more normal/expected marketing technique. He's not "subjecting" anyone to it by having it available. Most people will find that its not worth spending 20 min to get $0.25, but from the gist of his post, it sounds like this is expected/normal practice in some parts of the world.

That said, I agree that it has the potential to tarnish Hex, at least to a US audience.
What about the people that will see it, assume that it's safe because it's associated with Hex, and then enter in a bunch of info and end up in a bad place? I mean, that's already happened once ( http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=35093&page=2 ). What about these people that think they are going to be using a safe service to earn some extra plat? They are going to be left with a foul taste in their mouth and put the blame on Hex/Crypto. That's going to be a serious dent in reputation.

Also, people that know how/want to use this stuff will likely already have a better site that likely pays them in cash (I use several myself). They get no advantage from having it directly tied to platinum.

blakegrandon
04-29-2014, 02:17 PM
I just want to touch upon this phrase in particular.

A user that chooses to use services such as SponsorPay/TrialPay and the like, are subjecting themselves to it. No one is forcing it. It's not advertised in any of our faces. You have to discover it as an option, and choose to follow it. And if you choose to follow it, there is no one to blame for the consequences but yourself.

Sorry but I have to completely disagree that people are subjecting themselves to it.

Gameforge makes it a very clear option on their website, it's on the Gameforge/Cryptozoic website and is an option "promoted" in some ways by Gameforge.

Whether or not people choose to use it doesn't negate the responsibility Gameforge/Cryptozoic/Sponsorpay have to vet the sponsors.

Cryptozoic and Gameforge CHOOSE to offer the alternative method to obtain Platinum. Sponsorpay as a result IS part of "the experience" whether or not people choose to use it.

I can't stress enough that the sponsors are NOT trustworthy and it doesn't take time or energy to realize that, it's pretty obvious even to people that are well versed in using these types of programs.

Partnering with sponsors is great in theory but even one compromised identity isn't worth it at the end of the day. Putting up a product that can possibly harm the user base and then saying it's "their" choice to use it is irresponsible in my opinion.

Lonenut
04-29-2014, 02:18 PM
Yeah, this isn't about channel marketing and getting paid for that.

This is about the fact that these systems are scammy and promote spyware, malware and identity theft, as well as fraudulent or deceptive charges.

You won't find a respected, well thought of company promoting these things, and I assume Hex wants to be a respected, well thought of brand.

hex_colin
04-29-2014, 02:26 PM
I'm amazed that people are so concerned about the "get free platinum" stuff. I've seen it a "few" times now, and was never once enticed to click on it. At this point in the Internet's evolution if someone doesn't know what awaits them if they give them their information, I'm not inclined to worry about what happens to them. And, some short time from now, the vast majority of people will never see it ever (since you'll be buying platinum in-game).

hacky
04-29-2014, 02:32 PM
The user is responsible for everything they do. If they choose to take an offer, that is their responsibility. This an absolute.

You can also blame people and companies for surfacing such offers. You can point out how scummy or untrustworthy the offers are, and you'd probably be right. But no matter what your opinion is about surveys and sponsor offers, the end user's personal responsibility trumps it all.

That aside, argue away that it's not worth it to surface offers -- I agree with you. But never say that the users that choose to take such offers are blameless.


And, some short time from now, the vast majority of people will never see it ever (since you'll be buying platinum in-game).

This is a point I hadn't remembered, and is a very good point.

blakegrandon
04-29-2014, 02:32 PM
I'm amazed that people are so concerned about the "get free platinum" stuff. I've seen it a "few" times now, and was never once enticed to click on it. At this point in the Internet's evolution if someone doesn't know what awaits them if they give them their information, I'm not inclined to worry about what happens to them. And, some short time from now, the vast majority of people will never see it ever (since you'll be buying platinum in-game).

Colin, for those of us that have spent a significant amount on the game we wouldn't be as enticed to use the "Free Plat" system.

The problem is that this is like a free to play cash shop, yes people will use it thinking it's "safe" because it's being promoted by Gameforge(and hex indirectly), adding a free cash shop that can potentially lead to the user base getting harmed isn't a question of when users will be harmed but how many will get harmed.

If the product isn't "safe" to use for the average user it shouldn't be part of the Hex experience, if they want to get reputable sponsors paying for legitimate surveys, I wouldn't be as concerned because it would involve some vetting.

Are you sure the "free" option won't be promoted in game? Blaming the victim for what happens to him is victim shaming at it's finest.

The user is responsible for everything they do. If they choose to take an offer, that is their responsibility. This an absolute.

You can also blame people and companies for surfacing such offers. You can point out how scummy or untrustworthy the offers are, and you'd probably be right. But no matter what your opinion is about surveys and sponsor offers, the end user's personal responsibility trumps it all.

That aside, argue away that it's not worth it to surface offers -- I agree with you. But never say that the users that choose to take such offers are blameless.



This is a point I hadn't remembered, and is a very good point.

See my response to Colin. You can attribute blame to the victim but you should also attribute blame to the companies offering these surveys.

Kami
04-29-2014, 02:33 PM
I'm amazed that people are so concerned about the "get free platinum" stuff. I've seen it a "few" times now, and was never once enticed to click on it. At this point in the Internet's evolution if someone doesn't know what awaits them if they give them their information, I'm not inclined to worry about what happens to them. And, some short time from now, the vast majority of people will never see it ever (since you'll be buying platinum in-game).

The concern I see isn't whether you choose to do it or not but rather that someone will eventually and they may get burned.

Gwaer
04-29-2014, 02:35 PM
I've used sponsorpay on some silly f2p app to get a bunch of in game currency for free. I am still getting almost daily advertisements from car insurance people because of it almost a year later.... But it was probably worth it, I get junkmail anyway, so what if it's one more thing the shred.

I did 2 offers, one I got paid for, the one that I didn't is the one that is still sending me junkmail. =/

Saeijou
04-29-2014, 02:38 PM
I'm amazed that people are so concerned about the "get free platinum" stuff. I've seen it a "few" times now, and was never once enticed to click on it. At this point in the Internet's evolution if someone doesn't know what awaits them if they give them their information, I'm not inclined to worry about what happens to them. And, some short time from now, the vast majority of people will never see it ever (since you'll be buying platinum in-game).

+1

thats how the internet works today... you sell you privacy and get stuff for it... it's the same in the real world!
each "family card" or the safeway card or whatever... you sell yourself to get rewards... everyone should know that today...
it's sad, that people still get taken by such things :/

hacky
04-29-2014, 02:45 PM
For every person that "gets taken" by such offers, there are the "coupon clippers" -- the people that are savvy and take advantage of any offer they can.

These are the people who research every coupon, discount and offer, make sure they will get their value for their time, and make sure they don't risk anything in completing each offer. The type of person that would eke an extra bit of platinum out of any offer they can -- doesn't this kind of person sound like a challenging player to face in a trading card game?

The people many are defending here, the "victims", do you think they'll be players that will do well in Hex, a game that rewards people for taking advantage of every possible card interaction available?

Blame is cheap. I feel for anyone who gives their info away for what will just be a couple of booster packs, but wouldn't such a person do so for just about anything else? We can't protect people from themselves.

Kami
04-29-2014, 02:47 PM
Blame is cheap. I feel for anyone who gives their info away for what will just be a couple of booster packs, but wouldn't such a person do so for just about anything else? We can't protect people from themselves.

Fair enough. I just dislike seeing people be harmed when it can be mitigated.

Lonenut
04-29-2014, 02:49 PM
I want this game to succeed and be respected as a top game people clamor to play.

Getting a reputation for being involved in scamming some of your players isn't the way to do that.

That's all there is to it. It's not about blaming who is responsible. Respected companies don't have part of their business model rely on scamming their customers.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 02:50 PM
Fair enough. I just dislike seeing people be harmed when it can be mitigated.

My mindset as well in most cases. But then there are those darwin moments that just have to happen.

This isn't one of those times in my opinion - a lot of players of F2P games are completely naive, as are parents of any children who play video games. Seeing a way to save a few bucks is tempting for anyone on a budget too.

But I agree that people should be aware of this, and should avoid these scams. Some people just aren't aware of them, and they learn the hard way.

Svenn
04-29-2014, 02:50 PM
For every person that "gets taken" by such offers, there are the "coupon clippers" -- the people that are savvy and take advantage of any offer they can.

These are the people who research every coupon, discount and offer, make sure they will get their value for their time, and make sure they don't risk anything in completing each offer. The type of person that would eke an extra bit of platinum out of any offer they can -- doesn't this kind of person sound like a challenging player to face in a trading card game?

The people many are defending here, the "victims", do you think they'll be players that will do well in Hex, a game that rewards people for taking advantage of every possible card interaction available?

Blame is cheap. I feel for anyone who gives their info away for what will just be a couple of booster packs, but wouldn't such a person do so for just about anything else? We can't protect people from themselves.
So you are saying "the people that trust Hex/Crypto enough to actually do these offers is not someone worth caring about"? That person is simply not worthy of playing Hex? So it's okay to take advantage of unsuspecting people because they should have known better? What if I befriended someone, then used their trust to borrow some money and run off with it. It's their fault for trusting me, not my fault for running off with the money?

And besides, what about when those people go to their friends and tell them how a Hex "trusted partner" caused them a ton of problems. How is that going to look for Hex? That's the problem here. It's a black mark on their reputation.

hacky
04-29-2014, 02:52 PM
Fair enough. I just dislike seeing people be harmed when it can be mitigated.

And it's not like I disagree with you, either. It's just not, to me, "the worst thing in the world and the downfall of Hex" that many are suggesting.

I'm curious, after Colin's point, if sponsor platinum being possible going to remain an issue to you guys at the point when this is hidden because of in-client platinum purchasing.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 02:53 PM
I'm curious, after Colin's point, if sponsor platinum being possible going to remain an issue to you guys at the point when this is hidden because of in-client platinum purchasing.

I wonder this too. But if out of client transactions exist, these offers will be seen and used. So it might make no difference. Wait and see I guess.

Svenn
04-29-2014, 02:58 PM
And it's not like I disagree with you, either. It's just not, to me, "the worst thing in the world and the downfall of Hex" that many are suggesting.

I'm curious, after Colin's point, if sponsor platinum being possible going to remain an issue to you guys at the point when this is hidden because of in-client platinum purchasing.
It's a matter of association. Hex will be associated with spammy, information stealing sites. That will damage the reputation of the company and the game. Reputation can be a pretty big factor in being successful, and once a reputation is damage it is incredibly hard to fix. Do you really want Hex to be associated with this crap?

blakegrandon
04-29-2014, 02:58 PM
And it's not like I disagree with you, either. It's just not, to me, "the worst thing in the world and the downfall of Hex" that many are suggesting.

I'm curious, after Colin's point, if sponsor platinum being possible going to remain an issue to you guys at the point when this is hidden because of in-client platinum purchasing.

Who's to say in client platinum purchasing doesn't include these "free" offers?

The problem is that these sponsors ARE the worst judgment I've seen exhibited when it comes to the future of Hex. A AAA game shouldn't put the user base at risk like this, it's really that simple.

All the victim blaming aside, if there is a risk to using the program(which there absolutely is in the form of malware, identity theft, credit card theft), then it should be scrapped.

If anything is making my question my support of Hex it's the fact that the sponsors went live without anyone saying this might be a bad idea.

hex_colin
04-29-2014, 02:58 PM
I'm curious, after Colin's point, if sponsor platinum being possible going to remain an issue to you guys at the point when this is hidden because of in-client platinum purchasing.

To be clear - it's more of a hope/expectation, I'm not privy to the specifics of how it's going to work. However, if it works like most games, we'll just be choosing a quantity, verifying some financial info, and they hitting "Buy", all on an in-game UI that CZE is in complete control of.

Edit...

I bet you that, for the most part, there's a age split between the 2 camps: "personal responsibility/accountability - people should be able to choose whether or not to participate" vs. "protect people from themselves by not having the option at all".

hacky
04-29-2014, 03:01 PM
So you are saying "the people that trust Hex/Crypto enough to actually do these offers is not someone worth caring about"? That person is simply not worthy of playing Hex? So it's okay to take advantage of unsuspecting people because they should have known better? What if I befriended someone, then used their trust to borrow some money and run off with it. It's their fault for trusting me, not my fault for running off with the money?

And besides, what about when those people go to their friends and tell them how a Hex "trusted partner" caused them a ton of problems. How is that going to look for Hex? That's the problem here. It's a black mark on their reputation.

The bolded part is what I am arguing about.

At some point, people (hopefully) learn that advertising and sponsor companies are totally separate from the programs/channels/media that they are attached to. If my favorite TV show has an advertisement for a "turn your gold into cash company", which I believe to be a scummy business also, my opinion of my TV show is unaffected. With the above statment, I would need to hate my favorite TV show because they advertise a scummy business.

This is why I don't see that "trusting Hex" as mutually exclusive with having a SponsorPay option. I and the majority of people who see the SponsorPay option will never touch it. And someone naive that does discover it... they may be the same kind of person who would sell all their jewelry for cash.

Nothing about not caring for them, nothing about wanting to take advantage of them, but that learning needs to happen. Just like I learned, and just like you learned. Where is the point where we let people take personal responsibility?

Svenn
04-29-2014, 03:01 PM
To be clear - it's more of a hope/expectation, I'm not privy to the specifics of how it's going to work. However, if it works like most games, we'll just be choosing a quantity, verifying some financial info, and they hitting "Buy", all on an in-game UI that CZE is in complete control of.
Yeah, and Cory said that he was okay with these sponsors... so CZE could just put it directly into the client.

hex_colin
04-29-2014, 03:03 PM
Yeah, and Cory said that he was okay with these sponsors... so CZE could just put it directly into the client.

Being OK with them being on Gameforge's payment portal site vs. being OK with them being directly in-game are 2 completely different things.

Svenn
04-29-2014, 03:04 PM
The bolded part is what I am arguing about.

At some point, people (hopefully) learn that advertising and sponsor companies are totally separate from the programs/channels/media that they are attached to. If my favorite TV show has an advertisement for a "turn your gold into cash company", which I believe to be a scummy business also, my opinion of my TV show is unaffected. With the above statment, I would need to hate my favorite TV show because they advertise a scummy business.

This is why I don't see that "trusting Hex" as mutually exclusive with having a SponsorPay option. I and the majority of people who see the SponsorPay option will never touch it. And someone naive that does discover it... they may be the same kind of person who would sell all their jewelry for cash.

Nothing about not caring for them, nothing about wanting to take advantage of them, but that learning needs to happen. Just like I learned, and just like you learned. Where is the point where we let people take personal responsibility?
Well, there is a difference between an advertisement on TV and a game where they are offering you in-game rewards for something scummy. It's easy to separate the TV ad from the show itself. It's not easy for someone to separate these offers from Hex when they are directly tied in to in-game currency. What if your favorite TV show offered people that used that "turn your gold to cash" company all episodes several days earlier?

Yes, people need to take personal responsibility... but Crypto also needs to take responsibility for the types of things they subject people to.

hacky
04-29-2014, 03:05 PM
Also of note, CZE likely has control over the offers that are surfaced, and can request that a certain offer be blacklisted it it proves prblematic.

blakegrandon
04-29-2014, 03:05 PM
The bolded part is what I am arguing about.

At some point, people (hopefully) learn that advertising and sponsor companies are totally separate from the programs/channels/media that they are attached to. If my favorite TV show has an advertisement for a "turn your gold into cash company", which I believe to be a scummy business also, my opinion of my TV show is unaffected. With the above statment, I would need to hate my favorite TV show because they advertise a scummy business.


Sorry, but the fact that they ARE "Sponsors" means that they're NOT totally separate.

Sponsors that act poorly reflect badly on the host company. Sponsors like Cash for Gold DO reflect negatively on the shows that choose to allow the ads to run.

If you're taking their money you're absolutely liable for what message they put out, just like you ARE somewhat liable if your user gets scammed by the sponsor.

It's really not that hard to realize there is a difference between people learning to take personal responsibility and holy shit those surveys are slimy as hell and should have nothing to do with Hex.

Just curious have you tried to do those surveys? See page 6 or 7 for my experience with doing one, there is absolutely no reason Hex should use sponsorpay or any other form of Surveys where they don't vet the sponsors.

It reflects poorly on the game and will turn more people away than it will entice into playing.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 03:07 PM
I think I have said enough on this topic, I am going to step out before it becomes too heated.

I would still be interested to hear if Cory has personally tested any of these sponsored links. But I think we will not be getting that answer today, as the big man seems to have bigger fish to fry.

Svenn
04-29-2014, 03:08 PM
Also of note, CZE likely has control over the offers that are surfaced, and can request that a certain offer be blacklisted it it proves prblematic.
It's not just one or two, that's how the whole thing works. They are ALL problematic. The way someone successfully earns from these sites is to essentially fool them with fake info. If you give your info to any of the offers you are in for trouble.

Either way, companies don't typically have control over what these offer services have as their offers anyway.

hacky
04-29-2014, 03:08 PM
It reflects poorly on the game and will turn more people away than it will entice into playing.

Let's test this. Will you turn away from Hex if the sponsor offers stay?

Svenn
04-29-2014, 03:10 PM
Let's test this. Will you turn away from Hex if the sponsor offers stay?
That's not a valid argument at all. We're heavily invested into the game already AND we already know the perils of these offers. It's not us that are going to be turned away but future potential players who aren't already invested.

blakegrandon
04-29-2014, 03:13 PM
Let's test this. Will you turn away from Hex if the sponsor offers stay?

Honestly, as a Grand King backer I would strongly consider it, investment be damned.

I really dislike a system that is as slimy as the "Free offers" and "Survey" companies, Hex should not need it to be successful and it IS putting users at risk even if they share some of the culpability.

I love Hex, I play it every chance I can, and I've told all my friends about it, but if it sticks around I will most likely walk away from it.

I stick to my principles and Hex sanctioning these "surveys" really frustrates me because I believe in Hex but these "sponsors" are incredibly unethical.

The better question is whether I would have backed had the surveys been an intended feature of the game, and to that I answer as a resounding no. These surveys are like a cash shop except you take away the cost and replace it with outright fraud.

Yes, you don't "have" to use it but it's a feature that needs to be turned off permanently for the longevity of the game.

hacky
04-29-2014, 03:13 PM
It's not just one or two, that's how the whole thing works. They are ALL problematic. The way someone successfully earns from these sites is to essentially fool them with fake info. If you give your info to any of the offers you are in for trouble.

Either way, companies don't typically have control over what these offer services have as their offers anyway.

Except that companies typically do have control over what the offers are. This is from experience working with one such company.



That's not a valid argument at all. We're heavily invested into the game already AND we already know the perils of these offers. It's not us that are going to be turned away but future potential players who aren't already invested.

This is why arguing that people will be turned away is silly. The only way that someone will be turned away by offers existing is "I think this is morally reprehensible and I will boycott your product because they are there".

And I believe that is a small number of people.

mach
04-29-2014, 03:15 PM
I have an idea for a gold sink. Put a big red button labeled "Don't Click Me" in the client somewhere. If you click it, you lose 5000 gold. That's fine since you don't have to click it, right? So it's the user's responsibility if they do. Could add one for plat as well.

hacky
04-29-2014, 03:15 PM
Honestly, as a Grand King backer I would strongly consider it, investment be damned.

I really dislike a system that is as slimy as the "Free offers" and "Survey" companies, Hex should not need it to be successful and it IS putting users at risk even if they share some of the culpability.

I love Hex, I play it every chance I can, and I've told all my friends about it, but if it sticks around I will most likely walk away from it.

I stick to my principles and Hex sanctioning these "surveys" really frustrates me because I believe in Hex but these "sponsors" are incredibly unethical.

I will have much respect for you if you do. That's probably what is necessary as protest in order remove sponsor offers altogether.

Gwaer
04-29-2014, 03:15 PM
There are plenty of examples of my thinking on the forum so you can judge if you think I am a valid example of an average player, but when I used this service for a crappy ios game a long time ago, and it didn't work out as planned, I basically said to myself... Not using that method for free items every again.

It wasn't affiliated just with that game. I have seen this sponsorpay thing all over the place and gave it a shot. It didn't work out for me, but that's probably because I have the option of just paying money instead, but even when they screwed me over it didn't reflect poorly on the crappy ios game. it reflected poorly on the sponsorpay option.

hacky
04-29-2014, 03:19 PM
There are plenty of examples of my thinking on the forum so you can judge if you think I am a valid example of an average player, but when I used this service for a crappy ios game a long time ago, and it didn't work out as planned, I basically said to myself... Not using that method for free items every again.

It wasn't affiliated just with that game. I have seen this sponsorpay thing all over the place and gave it a shot. It didn't work out for me, but that's probably because I have the option of just paying money instead, but even when they screwed me over it didn't reflect poorly on the crappy ios game. it reflected poorly on the sponsorpay option.

This. I think this is a much more median example than the "i tried all the offers and now i get phone calls".

blakegrandon
04-29-2014, 03:21 PM
I will have much respect for you if you do. That's probably what is necessary as protest in order remove sponsor offers altogether.

OR we could trust that Cory sticks to his word.



I have been assured that the services linked to "free" platinum are trusted providers and should be fine, clearly if we find out that is not the case we will discontinue it immediately. Also, that platinum isn't free, the sponsor pays for it, so it ends up back in the HEX ecosystem.

That is why I would be willing to walk away if Sponsorpay and any version of it that doesn't involve serious vetting of sponsors sticks around.

Cory has consistently shown himself to be a man of his word and that's why I backed the project in the first place. The free offers are a recipe for disaster, it shouldn't take a boycott to make Cryptozoic realize that.

Lonenut
04-29-2014, 03:21 PM
Let's test this. Will you turn away from Hex if the sponsor offers stay?

If refunds were still being offered, yeah, I'd ask for one.

This is really poor judgement.

fido_one
04-29-2014, 04:01 PM
Being OK with them being on Gameforge's payment portal site vs. being OK with them being directly in-game are 2 completely different things.

We know it's CZE's plan to get payment into the client, and I think the consensus is that these surveys will not exist in the client...

So it's probably not-too-far off to say this web payment gateway will eventually be marginalized to a subsection of clients (maybe iOS or android, depending on how restrictive Apple's/etc. in app purchase margins are). Could we please look at the surveys and sponsors to be a temporary thing that will be re-mediated to some extent by the time it is released?

I don't want this to become another 'art of kismet' discussion - everyone playing now in closed beta knows the deal with HEX and CZE (and gameforge, given this post), so a lot of the worry here is for potential new players/payers. It may be the case that this is moot once the game is released as there will be a web payment gateway that is used by a small percentage and is redesigned for that marginalized client base.

Mike411
04-29-2014, 04:32 PM
A user that chooses to use services such as SponsorPay/TrialPay and the like, are subjecting themselves to it. No one is forcing it. It's not advertised in any of our faces. You have to discover it as an option, and choose to follow it. And if you choose to follow it, there is no one to blame for the consequences but yourself.

Yes, but if someone who is completely unaware of the history of these shady sponsor deals in the past goes through the ingame UI and it leads to the sponsors, (and this is the current setup) I can't blame them for trusting the sponsors, because you are trusting CZE who is trusting gameforge who is trusting sponsorpay who is trusting the sponsors. Dat chain of trust.

Grissnap
04-29-2014, 04:46 PM
Cory really needs a marketing person who knows what he/she is doing. The whole platinum pyramid scheme was pretty bad (I think he backed off on that right?) and now this. Sure, they can be effective (at least in the short term), but how healthy is it for the brand? The beauty of making your own IP is that if you can build up enough fans/goodwill/trust that you can turn it into a goldmine. The hardest part is getting the momentum required to push you into mass awareness, hence Cory's aggressive strategy. But how effective are these ideas? I couldn't tell you, and most likely neither could Cory... which is why they really need someone who knows what he/she is doing.

hacky
04-29-2014, 04:59 PM
Yes, but if someone who is completely unaware of the history of these shady sponsor deals in the past goes through the ingame UI and it leads to the sponsors, (and this is the current setup) I can't blame them for trusting the sponsors, because you are trusting CZE who is trusting gameforge who is trusting sponsorpay who is trusting the sponsors. Dat chain of trust.

The vast, vast majority of people don't blindly "trust" three degrees of separation.

You want to protect a tiny fraction of people that don't know the difference between a sponsored offer and a game developer. For every person like that, how many people know what they are doing when they do a sponsorpay offer? How many people are already familiar with that option for Gameforge-provided games? How many people coming from CZE already know to avoid sponsorpay and other similar offers?

You want to protect that one person who is going to cause inconvenience to themselves unknowingly, but still through their own doing. A noble cause, but how do you ultimately protect that person? If they don't do it through Hex, they'll do it somewhere else. Are you going to find every sponsorpay application and do the same there?

Sponsor deals are shady. I don't do them, and you don't do them. I trust the vast majority of people to make the judgement that is right for them, and because of that, I don't worry about the ones that can't. I can't save them. Again, if not through Hex, it'll be something else.

If you fight to not have sponsor deals in Hex, I'll agree with you... but its mere existence is nowhere near a dealbreaker for me.

Gorgol
04-29-2014, 05:02 PM
If a woman doesn't want to be perceived as being a cheap hooker, she shouldn't dress as one. Perception is reality and you don't get a second, first impression. I trust Cory to do what is right for Hex, it just doesn't look that great up front right now.

Mike411
04-29-2014, 05:12 PM
Small note: this offer stuff for me is reflecting poorly on gameforge, not CZE. It's clear that they're the ones pushing this stuff. Cory is probably not even aware how these offers throughout the years have such a bad history. Or if he is, he's trusting gameforge or the swamped support.hextcg.com to make it right when stuff goes wrong. Although you can't make it right in terms of the offers having malware, stealing personal info, etc. Unfortunately it would be very hard for CZE to seperate from gameforge, so they kind of have to trust them sometimes :(

It's clear that the majority is against these offers. I think the positive word-of-mouth and saving uninformed users from the bad offers would be more valuable than the sponsor money. Hope CZE agrees :)

Marsden
04-29-2014, 05:32 PM
Not to make these kind of things good or even acceptable in any way, but I have seen them before on other MMOs - Perfect World who run Star Trek Online and Neverwinter among other things have this method to earn their currency called Zen.

So people may be more accepting of them than we think. I think they're close to being legal cons, with the specific terms and agreements that make it hard to satisfy the requirements but... yeah, I guess people do use them.

Stok3d
04-29-2014, 05:34 PM
If refunds were still being offered, yeah, I'd ask for one.

This is really poor judgement.

It surprises me so many ppl just "don't get it". Crytozoic decided to make an aspect of their game 100% F2P and is what the VAST majority of people are going to play. When I say VAST, I guarantee that they are going to be flipping the bill for MILLIONS of people to play this game without cracking a credit card or giving them a paypal payment. Bandwidth, backhaul, server capacity, etc isn't free. It's actually far from it.

Hex could easily perpetuate as a standalone PVP only game. However, they opted to differentiate themselves and bring something unique to the table. Yes, this is the reason I backed--the best thing since peanut butter... a Magic the Gathering "esque" and Shandalar marriage. Everything I've dreamed of for the past 20 years! Oh yeah, this is given to every person ABSOLUTELY free. We're not getting nickled and dimed here to pay to reduce a timer after a raid wipe or hell even pay to unlock EACH boss of EACH raid.

It's absolutely free and they've kept it that way. Now what Crytozoic is doing is offering a means for these same ppl to still put ZERO money from their wallets and test out a little more of the PVP side and offset some of the cost these F2P are incurring. Imagine what a million people each doing enough surveys to generate 10 platinum will do for a small company with a phenomenal idea? That's 10 million a year to the bottom line. This buys multi-fold more employees and coders and Cory has said many times that he wants nothing more to reinvest everything back into the game.

So if you don't want to do a lame survey to get a couple free drafts a year then don't. The only way it will effect you will be quicker draft queues, quickened/improved future development, and more people drawn over to PVP. When I played a F2P facebook game named Castle Age, I thanked the heavens for these surveys. I did a ton of them and got the ingame goodies I was hoping for.

Really think about what is happening here as so many in this thread appear clueless of the true big picture...

Lochar
04-29-2014, 05:36 PM
Stoked, we're not complaining about the possiblity of free plat. No one is.

We're complaining about the fact that the free plat comes from a source that is more likely to rip you the hell off and steal your identity than give you the free quarter's worth of plat they offer.

Stok3d
04-29-2014, 05:47 PM
Stoked, we're not complaining about the possiblity of free plat. No one is.

We're complaining about the fact that the free plat comes from a source that is more likely to rip you the hell off and steal your identity than give you the free quarter's worth of plat they offer.

These sources are companies looking for something... a service, a lead, or something. I would imagine they realize the vast majority of these companies know ppl will simply make secondary email accounts and provide bogus info. They need to do their best to vet the respondents. So if some guy named Joe Blow doesn't really live at 123 Anywhere Lane, Beverly Hills, 90210, then why should they pay money out?

Illegal activity isn't going to happen from these businesses... you're speaking irrational. These are businesses--plain and simple that again are willing to pay for a service, lead, or reward you for buying a product you may already purchase. If one aims to screw them over and not provide what they're willing to pay, then don't be surprised one doesn't get platinum. However, this is nothing more than an option for ppl to try. I am THANKFUL AS HELL that CZE offers this. I've utilized these in the past and appreciated them greatly. Every single person in this game stands to benefit from this being offered to the pure F2P ppl even when we opt not to utilize it.

There is no downside here Lochar. It's an extremely wise business move.

Lochar
04-29-2014, 05:49 PM
Have you tried to get the free plat from the sponsors here then?

Mike411
04-29-2014, 05:57 PM
I have been assured that the services linked to "free" platinum are trusted providers and should be fine, clearly if we find out that is not the case we will discontinue it immediately.

Also it seems like they're not fine per http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=35093 :(

Stok3d
04-29-2014, 05:59 PM
Have you tried to get the free plat from the sponsors here then?

I don't need to. I dropped over 10 grand into this game. I have everything I need at this moment in time.

However, I have done this with a facebook game and really was thankful it existed. I did about a dozen surveys, ordered a Credit Card, and bought something I was looking to do anyway. I think it was switching to Time Warner Cable which gave me an absolute ton for the game. This was probably half a dozen years ago. I'm sure the principle here is the same. Do realize that not all the payments were immediate. Many took 3 business days I guess to check my legitimacy.

Regardless, it's an option many ppl will be happy exist and everyone in the game will indirectly benefit. If you don't want to do it--don't. I'm sure thankful that something like this exists than for the business need to be fulfilled by CZE charging $5 per Boss Unlock (say 5 bosses per dungeon / raid) times the 40x coming soon ($200 total to unlock all the CURRENT pve content). Or even worse, pay to remove REZ Sickness after you die...

Yeah, it's a no-brainer imo that many will see as a helpful feature to make such a significant impact to the bottom line and help pay for these millions of f2p pve players.

Lochar
04-29-2014, 06:02 PM
Before you poo poo off someone's concerns then, go see if they're valid. You may not NEED any plat, but it's worth checking to see if their complaint is valid. Go run a couple of them and see if it looks like it's trying to make you download crapware or steal your identity.

Just because other survey systems are usable doesn't mean this particular system is good as well. Doesn't mean it's bad automatically either, but you've made zero effort before ignoring someone's complaint.

Stok3d
04-29-2014, 06:09 PM
I'm going to be bluntly honest, the reason I haven't bothered looking yet is that the thought of these companies stealing your identity is absurd. If you need to install something then make sure you aren't giving permission to change your startup page or install toolbars--but that's pretty standard practice across the boards downloading anything on the net.

These are companies and this isn't some Warez peer-to-peer site. Throwing around words like Identity Theft is silly.

Kami
04-29-2014, 06:37 PM
I'm going to be bluntly honest, the reason I haven't bothered looking yet is that the thought of these companies stealing your identity is absurd. If you need to install something then make sure you aren't giving permission to change your startup page or install toolbars--but that's pretty standard practice across the boards downloading anything on the net.

These are companies and this isn't some Warez peer-to-peer site. Throwing around words like Identity Theft is silly.

Remember when Sony installed rootkits on computers?

Besides, not all users are tech-savvy. :/

Niedar
04-29-2014, 06:37 PM
You are absurd, and have no clue what you are talking about.

Kami
04-29-2014, 06:39 PM
You are absurd, and have no clue what you are talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal

Niedar
04-29-2014, 06:41 PM
Sorry Kami, that was in response to Stok3d, the post above yours.

Stok3d
04-29-2014, 06:41 PM
Remember when Sony installed rootkits on computers?

Besides, not all users are tech-savvy. :/

Seriously Kami, Identity theft? I guess I need to practice more restraint and concern here... but I'll instead look to you for that on this topic and excuse myself from this conversation.

I firmly stand by this decision being a huge win for everyone.

Edit: I just checked it out and they use SuperRewards which is who I went through before. I know they've been around at least 5-6 years as that's when I used them and they aren't new to the system.

When I did it, I did some car insurance thing, changed my cable, ordered some Books for my kid, and a few lame surveys. I had no issues, but then again I'm a very technically savvy person and probably avoided what I wasn't comfortable with. That may have helped my situation. From what I just rattled off, seems I went with well known places too which could have played a role...

Either way, this is an option everywhere on facebook and is just that... an option.

Kami
04-29-2014, 06:49 PM
Seriously Kami, Identity theft? I guess I need to practice more restraint and concern here... but I'll instead look to you for that on this topic and excuse myself from this conversation.

I firmly stand by this decision being a huge win for everyone.

The point isn't necessarily the companies themselves. The point is that they are requesting information that somebody has access to and some of that information goes far beyond what is reasonable. (Social Security Numbers? - I'm not sure how it is in the US but giving out your Social Insurance Number in Canada is insane unless you're sure it's a safe source asking your for it.)

I don't know if you recall but even in the IRS (as reported by journalists), employees abused their access to data to monitor people they knew. And this is only one example of a heavily regulated organization that abused such data.

My point is caution. Why subject users to risk (even if it is their choice) when it is unnecessary?

Mike411
04-29-2014, 06:52 PM
Going with Kami on this one for sure, trusting a company because they're a company is a bad plan.

Niedar
04-29-2014, 07:00 PM
(Social Security Numbers? - I'm not sure how it is in the US but giving out your Social Insurance Number in Canada is insane unless you're sure it's a safe source asking your for it.)


It is the same in US. Banks/Credit Card companies, schools, doctors, employer. Thats covers most of the companies you give out your SSN to.

blakegrandon
04-29-2014, 07:02 PM
These are companies and this isn't some Warez peer-to-peer site. Throwing around words like Identity Theft is silly.

According to whom? The website? The fact that they claim to be legitimate companies?

These sponsors aren't vetted.

I know the "survey" I did was shady as hell, it linked to 15-20 different sites, none of which were legitimate "companies", it asked for a ton of personal information, and it definitely attempted to install malware.

You act like these are companies like coca cola or Microsoft looking to do consumer surveys, they are anything but legitimate operations.

Sorry but I stand by my previous posts on the previous pages, these "Free Plat" options are nothing more than a scam and Cryptozoic needs to do something about them ASAP.

RobHaven
04-29-2014, 09:11 PM
I was on the forums so much that they've been banned at my work (thus my recent infrequent activity), so forgive me if this already exists and/or has been suggested... Why not pull together to develop a list of offers that are harmless and actually pay out? I've seen this community put together lists of just about everything, and here we have the opportunity to help protect our own.

If an offer seems sketchy, you can bail on it and move on to the next one; if an offer is harmless and pays you out, mark it down. When two or three people endorse an offer, it goes on the list.

Just a thought. Do with it what you will. We're stuck with the offers either way...might as well make the most of it.

funktion
04-29-2014, 10:11 PM
I was on the forums so much that they've been banned at my work (thus my recent infrequent activity), so forgive me if this already exists and/or has been suggested... Why not pull together to develop a list of offers that are harmless and actually pay out? I've seen this community put together lists of just about everything, and here we have the opportunity to help protect our own.

If an offer seems sketchy, you can bail on it and move on to the next one; if an offer is harmless and pays you out, mark it down. When two or three people endorse an offer, it goes on the list.

Just a thought. Do with it what you will. We're stuck with the offers either way...might as well make the most of it.

Actually that seems like the best piece of input this whole thread...

With that said I think there's probably a lot of "sky is falling" mentality here. I would be genuinely interested to know the actual revenue benefit numbers of companies collaborating with these sponsors is. What kind of beneficial impact will it have for CZE / Hex numerically?

One thing I would mention though is that even if many of the sponsors are legitimate offers with no sneaky agendas against you there are still going to be some that are up to something. It would seem to me that the more legitimate the official offers are, the more room there is for someone to find a loophole and use your info nefariously.

Also another thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is that account theft comes at a very real cost for Hex as well. If accounts are starting to become increasingly compromised then they are going to have to increase the CS resources to deal with that. Not to say that these types of sites are going to be the sole / only source of compromised accounts but if you can cut down on that anywhere along the line I don't see why you wouldn't.

hex_colin
04-29-2014, 10:12 PM
I was on the forums so much that they've been banned at my work (thus my recent infrequent activity), so forgive me if this already exists and/or has been suggested... Why not pull together to develop a list of offers that are harmless and actually pay out? I've seen this community put together lists of just about everything, and here we have the opportunity to help protect our own.

If an offer seems sketchy, you can bail on it and move on to the next one; if an offer is harmless and pays you out, mark it down. When two or three people endorse an offer, it goes on the list.

Just a thought. Do with it what you will. We're stuck with the offers either way...might as well make the most of it.

Applying reason? You come to these forums with a reasonable suggestion? What the hell were you thinking, man? ;)

+1

Patrigan
04-29-2014, 11:00 PM
Just for the record, not every region sees the same sponsors. So the offers that are given to you might be awesomse, while those for me might suck (haven't tried any).

Also, Stok3d they're using SponsorPay, not SuperRewards (although this might again be soemthing regional).

Yoss
04-29-2014, 11:05 PM
I was on the forums so much that they've been banned at my work (thus my recent infrequent activity), so forgive me if this already exists and/or has been suggested... Why not pull together to develop a list of offers that are harmless and actually pay out? I've seen this community put together lists of just about everything, and here we have the opportunity to help protect our own.

If an offer seems sketchy, you can bail on it and move on to the next one; if an offer is harmless and pays you out, mark it down. When two or three people endorse an offer, it goes on the list.

Just a thought. Do with it what you will. We're stuck with the offers either way...might as well make the most of it.

+10

I nominate Stok3d to run the thread. (But anyone can feel free.)

Khazrakh
04-29-2014, 11:10 PM
Also, Stok3d they're using SponsorPay, not SuperRewards (although this might again be soemthing regional).

It is - in Germany you have both: SponsorPay and SuperRewards. Looked at some of the offers, still looks highly scammy to me - the links got changed 2-3 times before you get to see the actual page, lot's of blocked pop-ups, and so on.

larryhl
04-29-2014, 11:30 PM
Most F2P websites/games have some sort of way to get "free" in-game currency via surveys or signing up for offers. I've done quite a few of these in the past, whether they actually paid out or not. Usually there's a big RED disclaimer saying that these sponsors have nothing to do with the game, etc. etc. This practice is pretty commonplace now, so I think most F2P players out there get the general principle that you're filling these out in hopes of getting currency and that it's not guaranteed and most likely will come with a ton of spam.

That being said, said players should probably look into protecting themselves (I usually use one-time email addresses or stay away from the more shady looking cell phone offers.)

Kroan
04-30-2014, 12:42 AM
At this point in the Internet's evolution if someone doesn't know what awaits them if they give them their information, I'm not inclined to worry about what happens to them. That's a bit harsh. This game will be f2p, so children will be playing. Only a matter of time before they enter the information of their parents or whatever.

Also Colin, don't take this the wrong way... But of course you didn't click on that option... you were too busy to buy credits :P

That we will buy in game credits doesn't mean the in-game shop might have link to sponsored payment as well. So that's a bit of a mood point as well.

Not saying that it HAS to go btw. But it would be nice if there were some big disclaimers about it.

RobHaven
04-30-2014, 03:47 AM
RE: The List
I would do it myself, but I won't be able to keep up with the thread (see: work ban mentioned above). I'd really like to see it made, though. I'll contribute where I can; I'll go through the offers next time I have a chance to log on.

ossuary
04-30-2014, 04:58 AM
I looked at the Canadian offers, and wouldn't trust a single one of them. About half of them said they require you to provide a valid SIN, which unlike you loosey goosey Americans, we NEVER give out. Pretty much just the government and hospitals can require it.

blakegrandon
04-30-2014, 05:29 AM
Just a thought. Do with it what you will. We're stuck with the offers either way...might as well make the most of it.

That would be depressing if Cory decides to keep the offers. Determining which ones are harmless could be like finding a needle in a haystack, the same "sponsor" could run a bunch of different surveys asking for pieces of information to later consolidate into stealing information/identities.

Having 1 harmful survey is one too many and there are far more than one harmful survey on there.

Zomnivore
04-30-2014, 05:34 AM
Oh well...this is frank and pretty darn honest about the situation.

I wish I'd seen this earlier.

Mahes
04-30-2014, 05:42 AM
I was on the forums so much that they've been banned at my work (thus my recent infrequent activity), so forgive me if this already exists and/or has been suggested... Why not pull together to develop a list of offers that are harmless and actually pay out? I've seen this community put together lists of just about everything, and here we have the opportunity to help protect our own.

If an offer seems sketchy, you can bail on it and move on to the next one; if an offer is harmless and pays you out, mark it down. When two or three people endorse an offer, it goes on the list.

Just a thought. Do with it what you will. We're stuck with the offers either way...might as well make the most of it.

Now this is an idea. All this bickering about what is or is not and a solution is provided.

Thank You

blakegrandon
04-30-2014, 05:53 AM
Now this is an idea. All this bickering about what is or is not and a solution is provided.

Thank You

That isn't a solution, it's a bandaid for a gushing wound.

Getting rid of the "sponsors" is a solution, anything else is just a workaround that still leaves people that don't check the forums vulnerable to getting scammed, getting malware, or worse.

Remember this isn't like someone going to a third party promising Free Platinum, this is a condoned method of gaining platinum by Cryptozoic and Gameforge.

It's shocking to me that people would justify the sponsors(most likely because they're getting their free platinum) at the risk of other users getting screwed.

Is that really the type of community Hex should become where people only look out for their own self interests?

Niedar
04-30-2014, 05:54 AM
That is not a solution.

Kami
04-30-2014, 06:57 AM
This is a solution... if you want people to take risks. It's like asking someone to take one for the team, heh.

While you can form a validation group, that group of users still has to take the risk in vetting different sponsors themselves.

Of course, on either side of the fence there are points. As I've stated before, I would prefer to err on the side of caution for stuff like this.

We've apparently already lost one user due to aggravation with this system.

Svenn
04-30-2014, 06:58 AM
finally got support ticket replied to, they claim I revived all my plat lol.

I am about to write this game off asa bad investment on my part.
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=35093&p=360733&viewfull=1#post360733

Well, there's one...

fido_one
04-30-2014, 07:17 AM
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=35093&p=360733&viewfull=1#post360733

Well, there's one...

Eh, same person that started the thread announcing he was quitting. I get that the responses he received were frustrating, but either be patient and state your case or go quietly into the night - announcing to the forums that you are done and how dare they and ZOMG seersly no LOLZ here!!! makes that person come off as unreasonable.

Lonenut
04-30-2014, 09:00 AM
The offers are the problem.

Partinering with Gameforge was the source. Cory committed to always being a second tier f2p game by partnering with Gameforge. There's just no way around that.

This kickstarter was billed as nearly complete and just in need of support from the kickstarters. I definitely didn't think they'd have to turn over this completely to a poorly viewed publisher to get the game to a playable state.

hacky
04-30-2014, 09:03 AM
Partinering with Gameforge was the source. Cory committed to always being a second tier f2p game by partnering with Gameforge. There's just no way around that.

Out of curiosity, I'm calling your bluff: who would be a partner that would facilitate being a "first tier f2p game"?

GatticusFinch
04-30-2014, 09:19 AM
Out of curiosity, I'm calling your bluff: who would be a partner that would facilitate being a "first tier f2p game"?

Isn't Gameforge the payment processor? There are plenty of other payment processors out there. From what I saw in other threads, people were even having problems paying them with Pay Pal, which is just ridiculous.

Daer
04-30-2014, 09:22 AM
Isn't Gameforge the payment processor? There are plenty of other payment processors out there. From what I saw in other threads, people were even having problems paying them with Pay Pal, which is just ridiculous.

They also run the servers and handle support.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 09:26 AM
Isn't Gameforge the payment processor? There are plenty of other payment processors out there. From what I saw in other threads, people were even having problems paying them with Pay Pal, which is just ridiculous.

Being one of those people, I am willing to admit there is a chance it was user error. And it was temporary. But it would have been nice for a clearer description of the problem, and links to support, so theres that. I think gameforge could definitely do a better job and I think CZE could upgrade if they could find a good partner.

GatticusFinch
04-30-2014, 09:29 AM
They also run the servers and handle support.

I keep seeing conflicting reports about what exactly Gameforge is handling. One person will say Gameforge handles all the support, and another will say that they are just the "front end" and CZE is actually handling the support. I see CZE saying they moved everything to new server hardware, but from you are saying Gameforge is actually doing all of that.

So, whenever I see CZE say "we" are doing something with payment processing, servers, or support, that is actually being handled by Gameforge employees?

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 09:32 AM
Some people also have problems tying their shoes, so that's not a great standard of measurement(has anyone ever had a problem with X? Yes? Kill it with fire!). This is beta, payment bugs are just another type of bug, do we really have to keep doing this dance with you? Finally, there are very few payment processors/cdns/support/gaming conglomerates with baked in enormous user bases. What's your end game Gatticus, what are you trying to get changed, why the constant extreme negativity?

to to answer your question about what gameforge is doing exactly, they are partners, they are doing some of the support, they will be doing most of the low level support once everything gets straightened out, they're also handling several alternate languages, they host the new servers that the game was migrated to, they do payment processing for us/eu at least, they help CZE with all kinds of things.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 09:41 AM
The way I understand Gameforges exact role is this:

Gameforge gets the tickets and sorts them, sending the ones they can't handle to the CZE CS team.

Gameforge handles the payments. (I know little more than this, but I assume this is temporary.)

Gameforge hosts the servers, but CZE has direct control over all the uploading and downloading. Any physical issues would likely be handled by Gameforge techies, because the server hosting is somewhere in EU (the last I heard, at least.)

I hope that clears things up a little, and I might not be 100% correct, but I am in the ballpark for sure.

GatticusFinch
04-30-2014, 09:42 AM
What's my "end game?" Jesus, you have reached a new level of paranoia.

I have zero experience with Gameforge. I'm trying to figure out what exactly they do, because every thread about them from the moment they were announced as a partner has been shitting all over that decision. I don't see how asking what they do or pointing out Pay Pal wasn't working counts as "constant extreme negativity," but I have come to expect that much from you.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 09:48 AM
So you're just trolling then? You didn't point out paypal wasn't working you said a few people had problems and called it ridiculous. Just like you've spun everything else as negatively as possible.

GatticusFinch
04-30-2014, 09:51 AM
So you're just trolling then? You didn't point out paypal wasn't working you said a few people had problems and called it ridiculous. Just like you've spun everything else as negatively as possible.

That is ridiculous. If Gameforge can't even accept Pay Pal transactions with ease, that is a huge problem. I'm not going to sugarcoat negatives or play this game of "hide the problems or you are a traitor" that people have asked for.

Kami
04-30-2014, 09:53 AM
Take it to PM or drop it please.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 09:59 AM
It's not ridiculous for people to have problems with paypal transactions.

Typing "problems paying with" brings up paypal as it's first option, specifically discussing ebay transactions. But there's any number of people who have problems intermittently with paypal. It's not ridiculous for there to be a small number of users that have issues.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 10:03 AM
It's not ridiculous for people to have problems with paypal transactions.

Typing "problems paying with" brings up paypal as it's first option, specifically discussing ebay transactions. But there's any number of people who have problems intermittently with paypal. It's not ridiculous for there to be a small number of users that have issues.

I have to admit, I have only just started using my own Paypal as my primary paypal account (I was having someone pay for me in most cases.) So for me personally, it was probably a case of my newly resurrected account suffering from some crossed wires with Gameforges new payment system. So I would be reluctant to place all blame on Gameforge. In fact, I was swearing black and blue that it was paypals fault until I rang them and got a very pleasant response.

My experience is likely not the normal, and when I asked, many people reported having no issues at all. I consider myself an overly paranoid edge case. But I would prefer for edge cases to be rare or non-existent. And they certainly need to be more clear about what the actual issue is, I spent close to 48 hours trying to resolve it.

Djbousquet
04-30-2014, 10:45 AM
Over the last few days I have seen quite a regression with the overall customer satisfaction of this game and it's company. If your game is in ANY WAY related or associated with people getting scammed and their identity stolen it will be a black eye with-in the community. Tournaments are still down, beta keys are being given away with false advertising about the game, people are still having numerous issues with the client and the customer service through gameforges site is atrocious, I have been sitting on the same ticket for 5 days and the few times they tried to fix it they screwed it up even more. The final response I got was this is a bug we are currently working on and will leave your ticket open until we get around to solving it. This is not what I wanted to see in the early stages of beta none the less at all from HEX and Cryptozoic.

This jump from Alpha to Beta was EXTREMELY premature and almost everything associated with the change ESPECIALLY the association and partnership with Gameforge is backfiring dramatically.

I want absolutely nothing but the best for the future of this game but what I have seen recently is extremely disappointing.

Makizushi
04-30-2014, 10:45 AM
Aaaaand out the window goes that "friendly and positive community" that Cory's been harping about :)

Yoss
04-30-2014, 10:48 AM
The same great people are still here, and quite friendly last I checked.

rjselzler
04-30-2014, 10:52 AM
The same great people are still here, and quite friendly last I checked.

Agree! Just because we disagree passionately doesn't make us toxic.

For the internet, Hex is a box of kittens! :D

blakegrandon
04-30-2014, 11:09 AM
The same great people are still here, and quite friendly last I checked.

Depends on how Cryptozoic decides to go forward with the sponsors...

I for one won't stick around a community that condones the user base getting scammed in an effort to make a little extra in revenue.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 11:13 AM
And kami was saying no one was saying someone *will* get scammed now the entire user base is getting scammed.

i suppose that you ultimatum is the finest point of the business decision they will have to make, will they lose more users than they get.

hex_colin
04-30-2014, 11:16 AM
Depends on how Cryptozoic decides to go forward with the sponsors...

I for one won't stick around a community that condones the user base getting scammed in an effort to make a little extra in revenue.

The motivation is giving folks access to gameplay modes they might normally not be able to access whilst maintaining the value of Platinum, rather than making more revenue (although that is a by product).

I'm firmly in the personal responsibility category for - you make your own decisions, you live with the consequences. I also think that any offers that are proven to be shady/illegal/etc. should be taken down immediately - not sure who'd argue with that, even if they generally support the overall idea.

blakegrandon
04-30-2014, 11:23 AM
The motivation is giving folks access to gameplay modes they might normally not be able to access whilst maintaining the value of Platinum, rather than making more revenue (although that is a by product).

I'm firmly in the personal responsibility category for - you make your own decisions, you live with the consequences. I also think that any offers that are proven to be shady/illegal/etc. should be taken down immediately - not sure who'd argue with that, even if they generally support the overall idea.

Colin, the thing is there is already the ability to get access to PVP by selling PVE cards, PVP was never intended to be free.

Personal responsibility is great until you realize that ANY of the sponsors could be shady regardless of how legitimate they look to be. It would be one thing if Cryptozoic was working with legitimate companies looking for consumer feedback or was vetting each company putting up those surveys but to say the offers are fine until they are proven to be shady/illegal/etc is putting the user base at a huge risk.

The idea that we have to get scammed/prove they're shady before they're removed means that the potential for harm is already there even if it's dealt with after the fact.

Telling people it's their fault for getting scammed ignores the reality which is how easy it is to masquerade as a legitimate company for things like this, a flashy PR campaign and you have a lot of innocent people getting scammed.

I'll compare this to Nigerian Scam artists which have been around for decades, yes some fault rests with the person that gets conned, but that doesn't mean you let the scam artists off the hook.

Anyone can be a victim, it only takes one slip up before even the most astute individual is scammed.

And kami was saying no one was saying someone *will* get scammed now the entire user base is getting scammed.

i suppose that you ultimatum is the finest point of the business decision they will have to make, will they lose more users than they get.

It's pretty simple to me really. Some if not the majority of the sponsors are NOT trustworthy, Cory said he would pull the program if it turns out that they're not trustworthy.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 11:32 AM
You keep saying that.

http://www.bbb.org/greater-san-francisco/business-reviews/internet-gaming/sponsorpay-in-san-francisco-ca-444320/complaints

a lot of pretty major companies use them. Their complaints are all didn't pay out. Which is hardly on the level of identity theft.

Svenn
04-30-2014, 11:37 AM
I'm firmly in the personal responsibility category for - you make your own decisions, you live with the consequences. I also think that any offers that are proven to be shady/illegal/etc. should be taken down immediately - not sure who'd argue with that, even if they generally support the overall idea.
So, you think they should be removed then? Because they are ALL shady. Go find me one or two that aren't.

hacky
04-30-2014, 11:40 AM
So, you think they should be removed then? Because they are ALL shady. Go find me one or two that aren't.

Posted one in the other thread.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=35093&page=12&p=361070&viewfull=1#post361070

hex_colin
04-30-2014, 11:41 AM
So, you think they should be removed then? Because they are ALL shady. Go find me one or two that aren't.

The burden of proof rests on folks to prove that they ARE shady. Actual, verifiable proof.

blakegrandon
04-30-2014, 11:42 AM
You keep saying that.

http://www.bbb.org/greater-san-francisco/business-reviews/internet-gaming/sponsorpay-in-san-francisco-ca-444320/complaints

a lot of pretty major companies use them. Their complaints are all didn't pay out. Which is hardly on the level of identity theft.

Which major companies? I can't find a single AAA game using sponsorpay, I see it associated with free to play crap games but I don't see a single big company that is subjecting their user base to sponsorpay.

Besides the risk of identity theft there is malware, phishing, them selling your personal information, credit card billing, phone bills, and more issues that are all over the web if you google sponsorpay.

If you think sponsorpay "sponsors" are going to use any information you give them responsibly I have a bridge I'd love to sell you.


The burden of doubt rests on folks to prove that they ARE shady. Actual, verifiable proof.

That would require getting scammed. The survey I took absolutely was shady and would have resulted in malware, my identity being compromised, my credit card being charged, and more. Had I given them real information I would have been screwed.

I'm sorry, you're putting the burden of proving that they're shady on the user base? You know personal responsibility isn't just something for the user base to engage in, right? Cryptozoic should take some responsibility for partnering with these "sponsors"

Losing a lot of respect for you Colin, I figured you would be as pissed about these shady as hell sponsors. It makes Cryptozoic look bad and any scams that result from these surveys will reflect poorly on Cryptozoic.

GatticusFinch
04-30-2014, 11:43 AM
The burden of doubt rests on folks to prove that they ARE shady. Actual, verifiable proof.

There is no burden. Perception is reality. If people who would otherwise play Hex perceive them to be shady and avoid the game because of it, the fact there is not "verifiable proof" is immaterial to the end result.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 11:45 AM
If perception is reality we have a major problem. Some people love sponsorpay, and swear by it. Some don't. There has to be a bit firmer grounds than how something is perceived.

if you click that BBB link it lists the companies the complaints were involved with in addition to sponsor pay. A lot of big company names are involved. Not necessarily gaming companies just big well known moderately trusted ones.

hex_colin
04-30-2014, 11:47 AM
There is no burden. Perception is reality. If people who would otherwise play Hex perceive them to be shady and avoid the game because of it, the fact there is not "verifiable proof" is immaterial to the end result.

So, the trade-off is always whether or not the very small number of people who will pass on Hex because they exist is worth more to the game than the number of people who discover it/are able to get a couple of free packs because of it. That's up to CZE to decide.

The vast majority of us will look at it and say "yeah, no chance", buy our Platinum, and move on.

hacky
04-30-2014, 11:48 AM
If perception is reality we have a major problem.

An even bigger problem that doesn't have anything to do with sponsor offers:

"This game looks too complicated, there's no way I can ever play this game."

Well, because perception is reality, there's no way we're ever going to convince that person to play Hex. No amount of friendly Hex community convincing or coaching will change that person's mind...

Svenn
04-30-2014, 11:54 AM
Posted one in the other thread.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=35093&page=12&p=361070&viewfull=1#post361070

Did you do the actual offer? Did you confirm it actually WAS ZipCar and that the info is going directly to them, not through some extra 3rd party who can sell it/use it themselves or that some sort of malware wasn't required to be downloaded for it?

There are a bunch of offers on these things for legit software, for example... but they are far from legit offers. I've done offers like these for Minecraft... it was a Minecraft download alright, and bundled in with it were about 8 malware programs. There are TONS of those. Just because there's a reputable company/brand name in there somewhere doesn't mean the offer is legit at all.

hacky
04-30-2014, 12:07 PM
Did you do the actual offer? Did you confirm it actually WAS ZipCar and that the info is going directly to them, not through some extra 3rd party who can sell it/use it themselves or that some sort of malware wasn't required to be downloaded for it?

There are a bunch of offers on these things for legit software, for example... but they are far from legit offers. I've done offers like these for Minecraft... it was a Minecraft download alright, and bundled in with it were about 8 malware programs. There are TONS of those. Just because there's a reputable company/brand name in there somewhere doesn't mean the offer is legit at all.


I couldn't find the actual offer. I probably went at least 5 pages deep on SponsorPay and couldn't find it on the other trial offer page. The best I could do is research an offer as stated by the author of the other thread. And I picked that offer because it's a name I remember from seeing them IRL -- a legitimate business.

If I could find the offer, I would have been able to confirm that for you the moment I clicked on the offer. But I think that is irrelevant. ZipCar is not a large, recognizable company. If I were to try to scam people by spoofing a rental car company, I'd pick a much more recognizable name. Your Minecraft example is a prime example: a recognizable name that makes people more likely to click.

At some point, you have to trust that a user with any sort of savvy will do their due diligence to protect themselves. Because the people that don't will click anything and everything anyway.

Svenn
04-30-2014, 12:13 PM
I couldn't find the actual offer. I probably went at least 5 pages deep on SponsorPay and couldn't find it on the other trial offer page. The best I could do is research an offer as stated by the author of the other thread. And I picked that offer because it's a name I remember from seeing them IRL -- a legitimate business.
There's an offer for a chance to win a free year of McDonald's if you take their survey on SuperRewards. Can you find that one? Tell me how reputable that offer is. That's got a huge name attached to it.

hacky
04-30-2014, 12:15 PM
There's an offer for a chance to win a free year of McDonald's if you take their survey on SuperRewards. Can you find that one? Tell me how reputable that offer is. That's got a huge name attached to it.

Why would you expect a year of McDonalds? Why would you even WANT a year of McDonalds? But it clearly says on that title: "chance to win". There's your catch, up front.

Pick a believable offer if you want to prove this point. Trying to show off the shadiest of offers doesn't help any of us.


EDIT: As an amusing aside, I won a free year of Carl's Jr (Hardee's) from a business card drop. I got a card good for a ~$4 burger every week for 52 weeks. I ended up using only half of the available weeks, and was pretty tired of those burgers for quite a while simply from that. :)

blakegrandon
04-30-2014, 12:30 PM
Pick a believable offer if you want to prove this point. Trying to show off the shadiest of offers doesn't help any of us.


He pointed out offers with "recognizable" names. You're saying those are the shadiest? So what are the legitimate ones from random people that have no names attached?

The point is even the "sponsors" with "name recognition" are shady as hell, even the most legitimate sponsor is a potential scammer.

Let that just sink in for a moment, this has nothing to do with personal responsibility, it's a trap designed to screw anyone tempted by the idea of "Free" platinum.

The fact that Cryptozoic is even thinking about keeping the sponsor program sickens me, it shouldn't take more than five minutes of looking at the sponsors to realize that they're shady and the program should be scrapped.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 12:36 PM
But it doesn't screw anyone that uses it. Million of people use it daily. If they were all getting scammed/identity frauded/ what have you, or even significant portion of them were there would be actions taken against companies that made use of sponsorpay, if not sponsorpay itself. That just isn't happening. There's no support for this stance that it is anywhere near as bad as you say.

Svenn
04-30-2014, 12:38 PM
Here's a funny thing. I clicked an offer to play Bubble Mania (puzzle game available on the Google play store). Know where it sent me? A website for mail ordering Russian brides. I know that's something we all want associated with Hex!

Tinuvas
04-30-2014, 12:38 PM
The vast majority of us will look at it and say "yeah, no chance", buy our Platinum, and move on.


My experience: "Oh boy! I get to buy platinum! Click there and...ok...website...what are all of these wierd things...no, no, don't want that, Paypal looks interesting but not now, no, There's the Credit Card spot! and done!"
lol Didn't even realize they were sponsor ads until coming to the forums. We all have to have our spam moment some time in our life...I'm fairly certain that the companies featured (out front or behind the scenes) will provide a relatively tame experience on that front compared to some of the shadier places on the internet I've bumped into (and ran screaming from). I think there will be those who get grumpy about their spam experiences, but I'll be willing to bet that there will be a lot less of those than the numbers who use the 'first one is free' to start a new experience with an incredible game. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

On the flip side, I have never seen a AAA game use these. Ever. They have always been the domain of the f2p games, and for me that seems to cheapen my experience a bit. Perception only, but there it is. I hope that as long as we have the sponsor offers that CZE gets loads of new blood to bring the queue firing to a fever pitch, and that no spam causes lasting harm.

Khazrakh
04-30-2014, 12:39 PM
Here's a funny thing. I clicked an offer to play Bubble Mania (puzzle game available on the Google play store). Know where it sent me? A website for mail ordering Russian brides. I know that's something we all want associated with Hex!

Did you buy them all or are there still some left for the rest of us?
I have to agree though, randomly clicked an offer to sign up for some kind of shopping newsletter, ended up at a dating site...

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 12:40 PM
I have never seen a AAA free to play game before. Hex is new beast.

Svenn
04-30-2014, 12:44 PM
I have never seen a AAA free to play game before. Hex is new beast.
LotRO. Neverwinter. SW:TOR. LoL.

wat?

wolzarg
04-30-2014, 12:48 PM
Here's a funny thing. I clicked an offer to play Bubble Mania (puzzle game available on the Google play store). Know where it sent me? A website for mail ordering Russian brides. I know that's something we all want associated with Hex!

You should seriously submit this with as much information as possible to CZE because that is some shit that could really get them in trouble on more than one level.

mach
04-30-2014, 12:48 PM
I have never seen a AAA free to play game before. Hex is new beast.

Depends how you define "free to play". As well as "AAA", I suppose.

hacky
04-30-2014, 12:49 PM
LotRO. Neverwinter. SW:TOR. LoL.

wat?

And Neverwinter had free currency offers.

LotRO and SW:TOR were originally P2P games that converted F2P.

Daer
04-30-2014, 12:51 PM
Dota 2, TF2, Hearthstone etc...

GatticusFinch
04-30-2014, 12:53 PM
Here's a funny thing. I clicked an offer to play Bubble Mania (puzzle game available on the Google play store). Know where it sent me? A website for mail ordering Russian brides. I know that's something we all want associated with Hex!

Maybe it said Ruble Mania?

Svenn
04-30-2014, 12:54 PM
And Neverwinter had free currency offers.
Yeah. How well is that working out for them? How many people are even still playing that? Apparently the free currency offers didn't help...

blakegrandon
04-30-2014, 12:56 PM
You should seriously submit this with as much information as possible to CZE because that is some shit that could really get them in trouble on more than one level.

According to all the pro-sponsor people, Hex is immune to anything that might happen as a result of partnering with shady companies engaging in possibly illegal activities. :confused:



I have been assured that the services linked to "free" platinum are trusted providers and should be fine, clearly if we find out that is not the case we will discontinue it immediately. Also, that platinum isn't free, the sponsor pays for it, so it ends up back in the HEX ecosystem.

So Cory, are Russian Brides considered trusted providers? If you trust them I'll be sure to grab one or two, what's the worst that can happen?

Saeijou
04-30-2014, 12:59 PM
Could someone please close that thread?

hacky
04-30-2014, 01:01 PM
Yeah. How well is that working out for them? How many people are even still playing that?

Enough that the game seems to have enough players to not be dead? Go do some actual research and find out for us instead of just leaving vague rhetorical questions.

You're picking and choosing what to reply to, and never actually returning to your original point. It's becoming worthless to try to argue any one particular point with you, since you're just going to quote whatever you think furthers your point more.

You said that every offer is shady. I tried to point out one that was possibly not shady. And from there, ridiculousness about AAA games and F2P. The term "AAA" has about as much meaning as "Beta", and is irrelevant to the original discussion.

Other games' success and failures have no bearing on Hex. None of them are card games except Hearthstone, and look how that's doing.

You can keep arguing whatever you want in this thread. I hope you're able to get the result you want, but be prepared in case you can't. We might not meet again, if that is the case.

blakegrandon
04-30-2014, 01:07 PM
You can keep arguing whatever you want in this thread. I hope you're able to get the result you want, but be prepared in case you can't. We might not meet again, if that is the case.

I think you are confusing me and svenn... Yes, we're both from Maryland, but we're not the same individuals.

I'm the one that has threatened to walk away if sponsors stick around, I don't believe he's threatened to walk away.

We have different arguments but we both disagree with sponsors being part of Hex.

Just wanted to clarify in case you were referring to me but responding to svenn...

hacky
04-30-2014, 01:12 PM
All I really am saying is that if you cannot change what you are arguing against, be prepared to act.

I think there is a good chance CZE will keep offer plat for the time being. And whether it stays or goes, I'm fine with either way, and many others are too.

Those that aren't fine with offer plat staying will need to decide what to do.

Have a good day, all. I'm retiring from this thread for more enjoyable pursuits than forum arguments.

Svenn
04-30-2014, 01:19 PM
The funny thing is that I use these sites on a regular basis... I have for a couple years now. I've earned quite a bit from them. I don't trust them at all though (and I am very careful when dealing with anything on them... also why I use a sandbox program to use them so they can't touch my actual PC), and I think it's a bad move for them to be associated with Hex. If they stay, it's not going to make me leave. My concern is in the perception it will bring about.

The switch to discussing AAA was a response to someone else's post in the thread. Yes, you posted a link to something you considered a legitimate offer... based on the name alone without being able to even test it. I was simply pointing out that things that have legitimate names tied to them can still be shady.

My only point is that these offers will hurt the reputation of Hex/Crypto.

Grissnap
04-30-2014, 02:34 PM
My only point is that these offers will hurt the reputation of Hex/Crypto.

That's essentially my main concern as well.

mudkip
04-30-2014, 03:36 PM
That's essentially my main concern as well.

Yep, I feel like this association has indicated that Hex will have a short lifetime. I was hoping for a 10+ year life, like WoW or Magic, but I think it's more realistic that it will be Flappy Bird length, or any other game that's trending in the free app stores.

Mike411
04-30-2014, 05:09 PM
Yep, I feel like this association has indicated that Hex will have a short lifetime. I was hoping for a 10+ year life, like WoW or Magic, but I think it's more realistic that it will be Flappy Bird length, or any other game that's trending in the free app stores.

Let's not go crazy. And I do think if Cory reads the whole thread he'll decide that the sponsor stuff is a bad idea and terminate it. He might even reach out to the person with a horrible experience using it - Phoenixfire on the forum, and make it right with them as well.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 05:23 PM
Pretty sure mudkip was being sarcastic.

Gorgol
04-30-2014, 05:38 PM
Yeah, clearly comparing Hex to Flappy Bird does Flappy Bird a real disservice and mudkip should be sued for slander.

Kami
04-30-2014, 05:50 PM
I believe this thread has run its course with many points made. I am sure CZE has heard our opinions but I believe we're at an impasse at this point and it is starting to degenerate.