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MMO_Unforgiven
04-29-2014, 11:59 AM
I love jumping in quick and playing a little one on one game in the proving grounds when I have time. I am super busy with life and don't often have the time to sit around and wait for a tournament or even play through one. I do often have time to jump in just for a game here and there in the proving grounds. Sadly I've noticed you don't get anything at all for any wins there. Sure I could just play for the enjoyment of it and that's what I am doing for now, but I think it would be nice to get something for my wins. You get something if you win in a tournament, but of course you also pay to enter those so I don't expect to get rewards like that. I'm thinking more along the lines of some alternative progression we could work towards like an achievement system or something that we can work towards to get something for our work. Maybe card sleeves, or alternative art cards, or just something. Right now I win or I lose and it doesn't really matter either way. I'm just suggesting that something get put in as an incentive to try and win there. I've had many people who don't get the draw they want and just quit. I know that will happen no matter what, but it would be lessened if there was some system in place to discourage it, and encourage wins.

Oli
04-29-2014, 12:05 PM
I think a great addition would be some kind of ongoing tournament. Maybe it lasts for a week and you can play as you have the time to do so. Add this with Limited/Sealed for extra fun. I too can only commit about 1 hour a day but would like to get some competitive format to play (for example a MMDoc-Swiss-Turney takes about 1 hour). I think many players (esp. with family) are in the same boat.

nicosharp
04-29-2014, 12:10 PM
Proving grounds is unsanctioned. Any reward can be exploited. This is moving towards the direction of daily bonuses and login bonuses, that I think were discussed long ago as something they were trying to avoid. PvE will have rewards, or tournaments. Proving Grounds is a testing casual zone.

If compared to the Hearthstone Quests - It would be PvE.
If compared to the Hearthstone Hero levels for wins - It would be Champion/Mercenary levels in PvE.
There will be PvP card unlocks in PvE. Its hard to see the entire picture of how the game will reward players until the full game is implemented.

Westane
04-29-2014, 12:13 PM
This is not that kind of game... You don't sit down at a table for a random game at your LGS and expect to get something for winning aside from a handshake and a "Good game!".

Kami
04-29-2014, 12:16 PM
This wouldn't work.

The exploit would be just to keep playing against yourself with accounts you create.

Bells
04-29-2014, 12:29 PM
Know what would the solution for this would be?

A super low cost entry fee for a ''for glory'' mode where you pay against someone in a ''best of 3'' match and the winner gets something out of that. Super easy to track, not easy to exploit, and would be faster for those who just don't have the right amount of time to dedicate to constant Championships but would still like to feel competitive.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 12:30 PM
Just give increasingly high win requirement sleeve rewards. First at 50 wins, the highest at ~10,000. That should give people bragging rights and something to do.

Yoss
04-29-2014, 12:32 PM
Just wait for Asynchronous Constructed and Asynchronous Sealed. They're coming (eventually). Then you can play for rewards in single-match installments.

EDIT:
Also, as per post 10 below, there are Double-Back stats that you can presumably level up in casual games.

Poetic
04-29-2014, 12:32 PM
Proving Grounds is more for practice and testing new deck creations. They should break it up into tournament practice and a more casual setting.

ThomasHunter
04-29-2014, 12:44 PM
As soon as I read this, it made me think of the stats on the cards (coming with double-back). That aspect of the game has me extremely excited! Your decks come to life and progress. This is what seems like an amazing jump from typical TCG (MtG) to Hex.

I'm guessing that playing in any games will progress your cards. I also jump in and play a game or two against the AI (don't think I'm ready for more than that at this point). It's only a bit sad that the card progression hasn't yet started!

Happy Hexing all,
Taleisin

Turtlewing
04-29-2014, 01:13 PM
I don't think proving grounds is the correct place for a "progression" system.

That's what Dungeons/Raids, Keep Attacks, Sealed/Constructed leagues, and tournaments are for.

Proving grounds is for "friendly" games and testing out new decks. Adding "something to win" to that would be counter productive.

ThomasHunter
04-29-2014, 01:21 PM
I guess I was thinking, for example, that a troops damage would track whenever it was played. I'll admit I do not know. :)

I wish I did know though!!!

YuukiRus
04-29-2014, 01:25 PM
I wouldn't really hope to see anything like this from proving grounds.
If a balancing error occurs where you can find the slightest exploit it will get exploited. Save the rewards for the coming features and tournies.
I'm sure there will be alot of things with the kind of incentive you're looking for eventually.

Cotton
04-29-2014, 05:13 PM
100G per win. Gold is only rewarded if you play a random match. Come on you guys!

Yoss
04-29-2014, 06:30 PM
No gold for PVP. That breaks the entire premise that binds the two halves together and makes the two players bases interact. PvE provides gold, PvP provides cards/chests.

RobHaven
04-29-2014, 09:24 PM
I'd be down for 100 gold to the winner of a random match until tournaments are back up.

DanTheMeek
04-29-2014, 09:39 PM
I'm of the opinion that having gold for pvp for all match making modes would be a good thing but ONLY if its given out at a fraction of what you could get from PvE, aka, if you want to grind gold the only reason you'd be doing it via PvP is because you really REALLY have no interest in PvE because even if you risk banning by trying to abuse the system you're still never gonna make gold as effeciently as you would if you just played PvE. Ultimately I think its bad game design to force players to play certain modes, different players have different preference and a player should never be forced to play something they don't like, only given incentives to encourage them to give other modes a chance.

If anything I'd much rather there be more incentives for PvE players to play PvP then the other way around, PvE makes CZE no money, while PvE will theoretically be the primary claim to fame of Hex so I'd hope PvP players will try it, any player who only wants to play the side that actually makes CZE money should be free to do so with out missing out on PvP content. On the flip side, while you never want to make the PvE players feel like they have to pay to progress if your going to advertise PvE as free to play, if you want to make PvE part of a viable long term business model you absolutely will want to make sure there are plenty of incentives for a PvE only player to buy plat, be it with real money or gold.

Also, I don't think a non-match made match should ever give anything, heck I'm not even sure if it should count toward card leveling and achievements. When you control who you play there's just too much opportunity for abuse.

ronwac
04-29-2014, 10:08 PM
Yeah, I think a first win of the day for bonus gold would be a cool feature for the Proving Grounds, but they might be better served attaching that to the asynchronous Sealed tournaments, or possibly a League format. It might be good to provide incentive in the proving grounds during beta, but once all the features that are meant to be faucets for gold are on, as others have said, it's probably unnecessary.

sukebe
04-29-2014, 10:44 PM
Just wait for Asynchronous Constructed and Asynchronous Sealed. They're coming (eventually). Then you can play for rewards in single-match installments.

EDIT:
Also, as per post 10 below, there are Double-Back stats that you can presumably level up in casual games.

I have heard they planned an asynchronous sealed event queue but not about a constructed one. Are you guessing they will have one or do you have a quote?

Yoss
04-29-2014, 10:56 PM
@sukebe:
It's in my sig under Features List, but here's the direct link:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32002

Yoss
04-29-2014, 10:59 PM
its bad game design to force players to play certain modes

Who's being forced? The point is not forcing PvE on people. The point is giving PvE players something meaningful to provide to the economy so that PvP and PvE players will interact. The point is NOT for each player to be a one-man show necessarily. If you don't like PvE but still want gold, go sell your PvP stuff on the AH or just do a direct Plat:Gold trade with someone.

sukebe
04-29-2014, 11:10 PM
@sukebe:
It's in my sig under Features List, but here's the direct link:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32002

That says there will be asynchronous tournaments, not what formats they will be. do you have anything where they mention asynchronous constructed queues? I ask because I am worried about having to many different queues to enter. Hopefully the game will get as popular as we all hope fast and this wont be an issue. I hate long tournament queues and having to many built in tournament options may contribute to that.

Yoss
04-29-2014, 11:20 PM
The whole thread was about Asynch Constructed, and Chark stopped by to say it's on their list. What more do you want?

(The fact that it also works for Sealed was almost a footnote.)

sukebe
04-29-2014, 11:31 PM
The whole thread was about Asynch Constructed, and Chark stopped by to say it's on their list. What more do you want?

(The fact that it also works for Sealed was almost a footnote.)

Again, the title only mentioned asynch tournaments, not what format. you may of mentioned constructed specifically but many of us were only talking about asynch sealed (as that is what CZE had mentioned). I would also like to point out the post directly above the one you quoted was about asynch sealed and the 4 above that do not mention the format at all (i didnt look further than that). I am not saying that there is not chance that he was talking about constructed but I am saying that assuming that is the case is not the best thing to do. Unless we can get a specific statement of what asynch tournaments they plan to have all we are doing is speculating.

Gwaer
04-29-2014, 11:33 PM
Personally I'm hoping that both the sealed and constructed queues default to async as soon as that becomes an option. They can re-enable to normal ones when there is enough interest to have them firing quickly. Focus on getting and keeping draft firing very fast, then let people play asynch on the other modes since they shouldn't have a problem.

AstaSyneri
04-30-2014, 12:59 AM
It hasn't been talked about in a while, but the first PvE element supposedly is The Arena, which does sound a bit like a more structured vs. AI Proving Grounds. Once that is up, I am sure you'll earn gold for playing it - and afaics it will be single matches you can start any time.

Oh, and yes, I am also looking forward to those double-back features :D.

DanTheMeek
04-30-2014, 12:50 PM
Who's being forced? The point is not forcing PvE on people. The point is giving PvE players something meaningful to provide to the economy so that PvP and PvE players will interact. The point is NOT for each player to be a one-man show necessarily. If you don't like PvE but still want gold, go sell your PvP stuff on the AH or just do a direct Plat:Gold trade with someone.

You're not forced to join a clique in high school, but if you don't there's a good chance you'll end up like I did, eating you're lunch outside on the red hot skillet like cement ground every day out in the 120+ degree Arizona desert heat because no one will let you eat at their tables inside or in the shaded areas. Four worst years of my life by far.

Or consider this. You come up to a table with food on it and 2 chairs, you want to sit on the chair on the left, you go to it and a girl stops you and says "If you want to sit here you'll have to pay me 100 bucks, but you can sit on the chair on the right for free if you want". You reply "But I don't have 100 bucks?" and she replies "Well I'm not forcing you to sit in the other chair, but you can't eat the food at this table unless you're sitting at a chair, and you're not sitting at this chair on the left unless you pay me 100 bucks."

Now I don't want to argue too much over the semantics of the word "forced" nor am I denying WHY you would like for players to have to either play PvE, or pay PvE players to do it for them via selling their paid for items or straight out paying them their paid for plat for gold, obviously it makes PvE a potentially more financially profitable endeavor for players. Yet, lets say we have a player who has spent everything they could afford buying packs, they trade everything they don't absolutely need to get the PvP cards for their PvP deck, not a cent or common to spare. Now they're staring at their chests with gold costs. If they can't play PvP to earn the gold to open those chests, would you not agree that they are, if not exactly, then at least "effectively" forced to play PvE to get gold if they ever want to open their chests?

Sure they don't HAVE to open their chests, but chests will presumably have PvP content like extra PvP packs in them, if they want to access that content, and they can't earn gold via PvP, they, again, have to either play PvE or or pay some one else to do it for them (aka, buy players gold). If they can't afford to do that, there only option is to play PvE, which is to say, they are effectively forced to play PvE even if they don't want to.

And again, as I mentioned in my first post, making PvP players either play PvE or pay some one else to do it for them either generates CZE no money in the former case (maybe even reduces it if they end up liking PvE and play paid PvP tournaments less) or makes them minimal profit in the latter case (depending on whether they need to buy more plat to give the PvE players and whether CZE gets some cut of the plat in any plat (or plat based item) to gold trade). For the most part, the only ones who benefit are players who plan to largely play the non-profitable (for CZE) PvE side of the game and want to leverage their play into real money profits. Which they can probably still do with my suggestion of making PvE much more gold efficient, but the PvP only player now has the option of getting gold much more slowly via PvP instead of playing PvE or paying a PvE player to get it for him.

Yoss
04-30-2014, 12:55 PM
Now I don't want to argue too much over the semantics of the word "forced" nor am I denying WHY you would like for players to have to either play PvE, or pay PvE players to do it for them via selling their paid for items or straight out paying them their paid for plat for gold, obviously it makes PvE a potentially more financially profitable endeavor for players. Yet, lets say we have a player who has spent everything they could afford buying packs, they trade everything they don't absolutely need to get the PvP cards for their PvP deck, not a cent or common to spare. Now they're staring at their chests with gold costs. If they can't play PvP to earn the gold to open those chests, would you not agree that they are, if not exactly, then at least "effectively" forced to play PvE to get gold if they ever want to open their chests?
To open them is free. To spin them costs gold. The player in your example can sell the chests themselves for gold to spin the remaining chests, or just sell all the chests period since he doesn't care about PvE anyway and the contents are (I think) mostly PvE stuff.

nicosharp
04-30-2014, 01:02 PM
To open them is free. To spin them costs gold. The player in your example can sell the chests themselves for gold to spin the remaining chests, or just sell all the chests period since he doesn't care about PvE anyway and the contents are (I think) mostly PvE stuff.
Mostly is a safe bet, but not exclusively.
I'd like to see options for PvP players to earn rewards outside of tournaments as well. A F2P PvP option with a reward system. It does not have to be PvE based. There are going to be a lot of different drivers for players. Might as well quench their thirst as individuals. Just, current iteration of proving grounds is not the right answer. Asynch sounds closer.

Rycajo
04-30-2014, 01:26 PM
Mostly is a safe bet, but not exclusively.
I'd like to see options for PvP players to earn rewards outside of tournaments as well. A F2P PvP option with a reward system. It does not have to be PvE based. There are going to be a lot of different drivers for players. Might as well quench their thirst as individuals. Just, current iteration of proving grounds is not the right answer. Asynch sounds closer.

Haven't players already earned PvP cards simply by rerolling chests? Then I would imagine it won't be too uncommon for the chest's contents to include PvP cards.

Yet I still agree with Yoss. I don't think PvP needs to be a gold faucet in any way. Plenty of players will be hoping to acquire PvP items with their gold earned from PvE. It should be very easy for PvP players to sell items for sufficient gold to roll chests and continue focusing on PvP.

nicosharp
04-30-2014, 01:41 PM
Haven't players already earned PvP cards simply by rerolling chests? Then I would imagine it won't be too uncommon for the chest's contents to include PvP cards.

Yet I still agree with Yoss. I don't think PvP needs to be a gold faucet in any way. Plenty of players will be hoping to acquire PvP items with their gold earned from PvE. It should be very easy for PvP players to sell items for sufficient gold to roll chests and continue focusing on PvP.
Okay, let me reinforce my key point.
There will be players that want to play this game as a "Free To Play" "Player Versus Player" game.
They will start with 1 starter deck.
No money for Tournaments
Tournaments will not reward gold (at least not intended once PvE is implemented)
Won't buy packs, so won't have chests.

What now?

Do you want to force these players into PvE so they have more than a starter deck, when that was never their intention? Do you want them to feel no reward in PvP play unless they spend money for the opportunity? I don't think that is the right approach either.

Disordia
04-30-2014, 01:45 PM
Okay, let me reinforce my key point.
There will be players that want to play this game as a "Free To Play" "Player Versus Player" game.
They will start with 1 starter deck.
No money for Tournaments
Tournaments will not reward gold (at least not intended once PvE is implemented)
Won't buy packs, so won't have chests.

What now?

Don't expect to play a F2P PvP card game competitively with rewards?

nicosharp
04-30-2014, 01:47 PM
Don't expect to play a F2P PvP card game competitively with rewards?
I guess that is one approach to it. I still stand by Proving grounds not being a solution. But there might be another none PvE way to acquire wealth without $ being attached to it.

AswanJaguar
04-30-2014, 01:49 PM
Don't expect to play a F2P PvP card game competitively with rewards?

Yeah, given that this was never designed as a F2P PvP game, I don't see why people feel that this should be available to them. CZE has a plan laid out that allows them to offer a truly F2P mode of their game and has balanced that with the P2P modes so that they can coexist and support each other. I don't see them wavering from that too much in the future.

Angelscream
04-30-2014, 01:58 PM
I agree with the idea, they should give some gold like 100 per 3 win or 50 w/e dont rly matter how many, even 5 or 10 lol, but if u feel that even normal matches can give u some prizes would be AWESOME for the future of this game, since it would make it more fun. No one these days wanna play just for play, but when u play normal 1x1 and knowing that u can have some prize u will take it more seriously too w is good.

HellFro
04-30-2014, 02:13 PM
How about a simple gold betting option? You both decide how much to put down and winner takes all? That way there's some form of short casual competitive play even if you're used to just playing PVE. I can imagine some fun PVE tournaments with just gold as the prize.

Or 100 random player wins gets you a random rare/legendary PVE card.

Yoss
04-30-2014, 02:25 PM
There will be players that want to play this game as a "Free To Play" "Player Versus Player" game.

PvP is Pay to Play, other than the rudimentary starting deck and Proving Grounds with it. This is the fundamental structure of the game. PvE is where Free to Play happens.

That said, sure, some microscopic amount of Gold rewarded for some non-bottable Proving Grounds activity might be OK, but I'm thinking like $0.01 per hour grind rate. In other words, play for an hour, go buy a common on the AH. Hey look, progress!

Barkam
04-30-2014, 02:25 PM
I agree that no gold should come from PvP other than chests from packs.

nicosharp
04-30-2014, 02:47 PM
PvP is Pay to Play, other than the rudimentary starting deck and Proving Grounds with it. This is the fundamental structure of the game. PvE is where Free to Play happens.

That said, sure, some microscopic amount of Gold rewarded for some non-bottable Proving Grounds activity might be OK, but I'm thinking like $0.01 per hour grind rate. In other words, play for an hour, go buy a common on the AH. Hey look, progress!

If it were available in PvP it would be grindy, not exploitable and pennies per hour (which is the equivalent to grinding IP in LOL's value for time).
I think it would be easier to make PvP rewards achievement based and not gold based. This is my example:

* Win 5 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 2 copies of the same common (4 choices based on different starter decks)

* Win 10 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 2 copies of the same common (4 choices based on different starter decks, different commons than the ones offered above)

* Win 20 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 2 copies of the same common (4 choices based on different starter decks, different commons than the ones offered above)

* Win 40 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 2 copies of the same uncommon (4 choices based on different starter decks)

* Win 60 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 2 copies of the same uncommon (4 choices based on different starter decks, different commons than the ones offered above)

* Win 80 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 1 Rare (4 choices based on different starter decks)

* Win 100 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 1 New Starter Deck of your choice (4 choices based on different starter decks, could grab a second copy of the one you are playing) (This reward might be a stretch as the starters are a sold item. Maybe just another rare, or make this a much more difficult achievement.)

These rewards could reset at 100 games won.
(Any game under 5 minutes in length would not count as a win)

sukebe
04-30-2014, 03:13 PM
If it were available in PvP it would be grindy, not exploitable and pennies per hour (which is the equivalent to grinding IP in LOL's value for time).
I think it would be easier to make PvP rewards achievement based and not gold based. This is my example:

* Win 5 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 2 copies of the same common (4 choices based on different starter decks)

* Win 10 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 2 copies of the same common (4 choices based on different starter decks, different commons than the ones offered above)

* Win 20 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 2 copies of the same common (4 choices based on different starter decks, different commons than the ones offered above)

* Win 40 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 2 copies of the same uncommon (4 choices based on different starter decks)

* Win 60 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 2 copies of the same uncommon (4 choices based on different starter decks, different commons than the ones offered above)

* Win 80 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 1 Rare (4 choices based on different starter decks)

* Win 100 games against random opponents in the "Play Queue"
Reward 1 New Starter Deck of your choice (4 choices based on different starter decks, could grab a second copy of the one you are playing) (This reward might be a stretch as the starters are a sold item. Maybe just another rare, or make this a much more difficult achievement.)

These rewards could reset at 100 games won.
(Any game under 5 minutes in length would not count as a win)

Sorry, but I think this would be a terrible idea. CZE are already giving a huge f2p game in the form of PVE and I do not think they should hand out more PVP stuff on top that. We already get pvp cards (normal and aa) from chests. The way they make money on Hex is the PVP side of the game. We all need them to make money to keep the game running (both the f2p and the p2p sides)

Wanting/expecting a f2p pvp experience in Hex is like going into LoL and asking for them to provide you with a rts experience like in starcraft. It just isn't going to happen and is not a reasonable expectation.

Edit: not to mention the fact that proving ground games are probably the most easily exploited part of Hex. However, as they currently are there is no point to try and exploit them as nothing is gained. I feel like this is for the best.

nicosharp
04-30-2014, 03:21 PM
Wanting/expecting a f2p pvp experience in Hex is like going into LoL and asking for them to provide you with a rts experience like in starcraft. It just isn't going to happen and is not a reasonable expectation.

Actually, this comparison is all wrong. Asking for f2p PvP in Hex, is like grinding a summoner to lvl 30 in LOL without spending money, and then playing ranked with what you've earned.

In that sense, its not baseless. But you can argue these players should just grind PvE to get PvP unlocks and gold to earn PvP cards for their competitive play for free. It works either way, you just force a PvE experience on these players for them to get where they want to be.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 03:34 PM
I don't think it's like that at all... CZE set aside two different sections of their game, the free to play PVE side and the pay to play pvp side.

There will be some crossover, some people will pay to get gold for a head start in pve, some people will grind pve for solid PVP decks and plat to enter tournaments, but they are still two seperate games basically in symbiosis. The delicate balance of both sides providing things most people want are integral to the game itself. League just is a f2p game, there's really no incentive to pay any money whatsoever, not paying money people don't depend on paying money people.


One of the things that I found so interesting about hex was this very neat business model, I hope to fully explore it and I hope that more gaming companies will try to emulate it, because it seems to me to provide a much more pure PVE experience, that is unencumbered from interests like making people buy your gold with money and whatnot.

Idus
04-30-2014, 03:35 PM
I personally see the Proving Grounds mainly as a way to test decks, but being time poor for tournaments, it also provides a casual gaming experience. For the former use, no rewards necessary, for the latter, it would be nice, but it's not something I expect given the other avenues to play. I'd actually prefer a more casual/less time commitment tournament format, with mild PvP rewards, rather than adding rewards to proving ground.

As to the rewards themselves, definitely no PvE rewards in PvP. PvE will provide a large percentage of new PvP players. It'll be the hook that gets people into the game. There needs to be a dependence between the 2 sides to keep each relevant. PvP players provide PvP cards & platinum to PvE players who have more time than money, love to grind, or who don't like hard-core gaming. PvE players provide gold & PvE gear to PvP players who have more money than time, hate to grind, or who prefer a hard-core gaming experience. Each will introduce the other, to the other half if the game, and some will find they enjoy it, and cross-over.

Gaining platinum directly in PvE or gold directly in PvP dilutes the dependence between each other, watering down the whole game richness, reducing everyone's long-term fun, the profitability of the game for Crypto, and therefore it's continued growth for us. The only rewards I can see being meaningful without affecting other areas of the game in the proving grounds, is achievements, which while being slightly gameable, only really hurt the gamer if done so, as it's really a hollow victory.

*EDIT*

Gwaer beat me to it with a few similar thoughts. Also, I forgot to mention. Dependence between players is important. Look at Guildwars 2 crafting. It promised a rich system, but then made it so easy for everyone to become an expert in everything, that no one could sell anything they made, because everyone could make their own. This is why I think currency for one side should not be earned directly in the other side as rewards, no matter how small.

Yoss
04-30-2014, 03:55 PM
Dependence between players is important. Look at Guildwars 2 crafting. It promised a rich system, but then made it so easy for everyone to become an expert in everything, that no one could sell anything they made, because everyone could make their own. This is why I think currency for one side should not be earned directly in the other side as rewards, no matter how small.

This. The game space needs to be such that most players specialize to find a niche in the economy. Just like in real life, a person may specialize in making clothes or houses or food, but virtually no one does all three. You do well at what you're good at, then trade with others who've done the same in their areas of expertise.

The blockade to being a jack-of-all-trades need not be a hard ban where you pick a skill tree and are locked out of other branches; it could just be time prohibitive to get to the level of mastery required for profit so that only the most dedicated of players could hope to specialize in more than a few things.

Bringing it back to Hex, a normal player who wants to specialize in PvP should not have time to also farm PvE for gold (play it, sure but not enough to meet his chest-spinning needs). Likewise, a normal player who wants to specialize in PvE should not have time to Draft very often, at least not enough to provide all the chests to consume the gold he's farming. This split is what drives the economy. There should be other aspects as well, like the aforementioned crafting and possibly others.

Having a large and varied economy that only an elite few can fully understand and no one can master everything is good.

EDIT:
I would also say that it would be awesome if there was so much game content that no sane person could ever do it all. Not that you'd be blocked from access to anything in particular, just that there's too much. I know, it's not likely that CZE can keep up with that demand, but it's nice to dream and is why I'm keen to get a 3rd party API implemented so we can crowdsource some content.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 04:04 PM
EDIT:
I would also say that it would be awesome if there was so much game content that no sane person could ever do it all. Not that you'd be blocked from access to anything in particular, just that there's too much. I know, it's not likely that CZE can keep up with that demand, but it's nice to dream and is why I'm keen to get a 3rd party API implemented so we can crowdsource some content.

It might not be exactly what you mean, but... Keeps. There will be almost limitless combinations (using 3 decks will give you near-infinite options, even in the first set) and the player attacking the keep will always be adapting, weighing the risk versus the reward, and striving to do better and to earn those rewards.

In that sense, we will always have limitless content. (After all, there is an entire game based around this idea, and last time I checked that is doing fine.)

sukebe
04-30-2014, 04:10 PM
Actually, this comparison is all wrong. Asking for f2p PvP in Hex, is like grinding a summoner to lvl 30 in LOL without spending money, and then playing ranked with what you've earned.

In that sense, its not baseless. But you can argue these players should just grind PvE to get PvP unlocks and gold to earn PvP cards for their competitive play for free. It works either way, you just force a PvE experience on these players for them to get where they want to be.

Ok, I admit that was a bad comparison. However my point remains the same. It is unreasonable to expect CZE to make the income generating portion of their game more open to those who refuse to pay for the game they enjoy.

Once the entire game is out it will almost certainly be possible to play pvp with no money investment at all by playing pvp and selling rare/legendary drops for platinum. This is the same trade off all f2p micro transaction games have. Either spend time (playing pve enough to get the drops people will pay for) or money (just buy the platinum and enjoy).

As I mentioned in my last post (which you mostly ignored except for my bad example) giving any prizes to proving grounds games is just asking for exploitation.

Yoss
04-30-2014, 04:32 PM
It might not be exactly what you mean, but... Keeps. There will be almost limitless combinations (using 3 decks will give you near-infinite options, even in the first set) and the player attacking the keep will always be adapting, weighing the risk versus the reward, and striving to do better and to earn those rewards.

In that sense, we will always have limitless content. (After all, there is an entire game based around this idea, and last time I checked that is doing fine.)

True, my friend and I were just discussing Keep Defense yesterday, I can't believe I forgot that so quickly. That will indeed go a long way to providing content if it's done right.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 04:39 PM
True, my friend and I were just discussing Keep Defense yesterday, I can't believe I forgot that so quickly. That will indeed go a long way to providing content if it's done right.

I have no reason to doubt, but I certainly hope it is done right. It just seems like an amazing feature, and I think it could give as many hours of content as PvE, no problem.

I mean, when you consider exactly how much content we have...

We have renewable content that should stay reasonably fresh, updated every ~3 months (PvP tournaments, specifically drafts).
Also, casual PvP.

Non-renewable content in PvE with varying rewards, and the potential to be semi-renewable with deck swaps.

Renewable content via keep defence.

Other than all our compulsive WoF gambling, am I missing anything? Because everything mentioned could easily soak up hundreds of hours in a single set (and already has for some alpha players!)

sukebe
04-30-2014, 04:47 PM
It might not be exactly what you mean, but... Keeps. There will be almost limitless combinations (using 3 decks will give you near-infinite options, even in the first set) and the player attacking the keep will always be adapting, weighing the risk versus the reward, and striving to do better and to earn those rewards.

In that sense, we will always have limitless content. (After all, there is an entire game based around this idea, and last time I checked that is doing fine.)

I can't believe I forgot about this either. It is something I was so looking forward to when it was announced. I am glad you brought it up as Yoss and I cannot be the only ones who had it slip from their mind.