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Chark
04-29-2014, 03:06 PM
Hey everyone,

We went ahead and moved the expiry dates on draft tickets for everyone. Your tickets now expire 3 weeks from the original expiry date. This is a temporary fix to avoid losing drafts while they are down.

Don't read too much into the +3 weeks. We just wanted to be safe. :)

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 03:08 PM
I can only assume this is a temporary fix? Although I am sure it would be welcomed by all pro and 250 tier players with open arms as a permanent change.

mach
04-29-2014, 03:10 PM
Just get rid of the expiration dates already. It's bad design, just like the untradeable mercs was.

Having people enter drafts they have no intention of actually playing in isn't good for the game.

Chark
04-29-2014, 03:12 PM
I can only assume this is a temporary fix? Although I am sure it would be welcomed by all pro and 250 tier players with open arms as a permanent change.

Updated the original post. Also, those guys got enough value from the 250 dollar tiers. We aren't going to give them more. :)

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 03:16 PM
Updated the original post. Also, those guys got enough value from the 250 dollar tiers. We aren't going to give them more. :)

That is what I expected, and thanks for clarifying, I know you guys are super busy.

Any of you even get any sleep lately? What with the 3am patch and all....

Chark
04-29-2014, 03:16 PM
Just get rid of the expiration dates already. It's bad design, just like the untradeable mercs was.

Having people enter drafts they have no intention of actually playing in isn't good for the game.

Respectfully disagree with that statement. You're approaching this only via the lens of a player who is trying to maximize value for themselves.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 03:18 PM
I have to agree with Chark here Mach - I just got gifted a year for free drafts code, and I am firmly of the belief that they need an expiry date.

mach
04-29-2014, 03:19 PM
Respectfully disagree with that statement. You're approaching this only via the lens of a player who is trying to maximize value for themselves.

How so? I don't have any of these tickets myself.

Though I suppose it's right in the sense that if I buy into a draft I want to maximize my value by playing an opponent every round.


I have to agree with Chark here Mach - I just got gifted a year for free drafts code, and I am firmly of the belief that they need an expiry date.

Care to elaborate as to why?

I mean, I can see making them only work for Set 1 drafts, which means they will expire when Set 1 queues end. But beyond that, I don't see the reason.

Mike411
04-29-2014, 03:27 PM
You need to restart the client if you're currently logged in to see the new date. Also chark is very not-orange in game. Just like alpha :(

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 03:35 PM
Care to elaborate as to why?

I mean, I can see making them only work for Set 1 drafts, which means they will expire when Set 1 queues end. But beyond that, I don't see the reason.

Because it would fundamentally change the worth of the tier. I dont want to get too math-y, but the value of the 250 tier drafts is 52-X, where X is the number of drafts you can participate in over the course of the year. If you didn't let the tickets expire, the value would be set to 52, no exceptions.

Now, I can understand not wanting to lose value, but the 250 tier drafts were pure added value , so it is already worth far more than it was originally. The price you paid was for the perks inside the 250 tier, and any drafts you play increase the value by that amount. I am not trying to imply that people should get shafted on it, but they are playing with pure profit, they can't really lose.

As for limiting them to set 1 packs, they were intended to last a year, meaning that set 2 and 3 (and possibly even more) should be available by that time. People would actually lose more value (due to later packs having more worth than set 1 packs) than they would lose from missing a draft a month.


So it seems fair to stick to what was said at the beginning. I wouldn't go around arguing if it was changed, but there is no reason to make this a permanent change right now.

Svenn
04-29-2014, 03:38 PM
How so? I don't have any of these tickets myself.

Though I suppose it's right in the sense that if I buy into a draft I want to maximize my value by playing an opponent every round.



Care to elaborate as to why?

I mean, I can see making them only work for Set 1 drafts, which means they will expire when Set 1 queues end. But beyond that, I don't see the reason.
I am also of a mind that they should last exactly one week and expire. It's better for the health of the game and the value of collections. This is also how they said it would work from the beginning.

Saeijou
04-29-2014, 03:38 PM
do we get new tickets tomorrow or are the new tickets delayed until we play the actual ones?

Mike411
04-29-2014, 03:41 PM
do we get new tickets tomorrow or are the new tickets delayed until we play the actual ones?

There has been a staff post that said you should get the next one exactly one week from when you redeemed your draft code.

mach
04-29-2014, 03:50 PM
Because it would fundamentally change the worth of the tier. I dont want to get too math-y, but the value of the 250 tier drafts is 52-X, where X is the number of drafts you can participate in over the course of the year. If you didn't let the tickets expire, the value would be set to 52, no exceptions.

Now, I can understand not wanting to lose value, but the 250 tier drafts were pure added value , so it is already worth far more than it was originally. The price you paid was for the perks inside the 250 tier, and any drafts you play increase the value by that amount. I am not trying to imply that people should get shafted on it, but they are playing with pure profit, they can't really lose.


Wasn't the tickets one of those perks of those tiers? It's not value added, it's part of what you paid for.

But I'm not worried about losing value personally because I don't have this tier. I'm worried about all the players entering queues with expiring tickets which they have no intention of actually playing in, creating a bad experience for those who bought into a draft expecting to get their money's worth in games played.



As for limiting them to set 1 packs, they were intended to last a year, meaning that set 2 and 3 (and possibly even more) should be available by that time. People would actually lose more value (due to later packs having more worth than set 1 packs) than they would lose from missing a draft a month.


Right. So they're set1 tickets until set2 comes out. Then new tickets are set2 tickets. Or tickets which work on either if they're still offering both queues.



So it seems fair to stick to what was said at the beginning. I wouldn't go around arguing if it was changed, but there is no reason to make this a permanent change right now.

You could say the same about mercs. They changed that because it was better for the game and should do the same for this.

GatticusFinch
04-29-2014, 03:51 PM
Respectfully disagree with that statement. You're approaching this only via the lens of a player who is trying to maximize value for themselves.

Please explain this from the lens of the developer then, because I also think it is bad design. Maybe you regret giving out those rewards in hindsight, but the fact of the matter is the kickstarter exploded in large part because of those rewards: Pro Player sold out way faster than anything else and the free year of drafts was added as an incentive to move those $250 tiers that were not selling as fast.

I see almost no downside to letting them stack to some limited amount. Say, you can have 3 of them in your inventory, max, and then the 4th one gets trashed if you already have 3. It's a quality of life change that has will reduce the number of draft and drops considerably.

If the idea is to make tickets scarce to force people to buy more of them, I think you are seriously underestimating the draw of draft to people already dropping hundreds of dollars on Hex, sight unseen. Very few people spending that kind of up front money on the game intend to only ever use that one draft ticket.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 04:00 PM
Wasn't the tickets one of those perks of those tiers? It's not value added, it's part of what you paid for.

The Pro tier was the only one initially advertised with free drafts. And when those are for life, you don't really lose if you skip a week and lose a ticket, you just take the next one. The year drafts were added much later.




But I'm not worried about losing value personally because I don't have this tier. I'm worried about all the players entering queues with expiring tickets which they have no intention of actually playing in, creating a bad experience for those who bought into a draft expecting to get their money's worth in games played.


If people rare draft, and drop, then yes, it is a poor play experience for the person who got the bye. However, that person is a step closer to a reward (which can easily translate into free packs.) So the person with the bye can simply play PvE while waiting (when that is an option) and be given a reward for someone else rare drafting and dropping.



Right. So they're set1 tickets until set2 comes out. Then new tickets are set2 tickets. Or tickets which work on either if they're still offering both queues.


I can see what you are going for. May as well just gift 52 free drafts right now. The idea was to just have a draft drop into your account every week that you could choose to use. Tinkering with how they are used isn't very helpful. And making them not expire just makes them more valuable.



You could say the same about mercs. They changed that because it was better for the game and should do the same for this.

Absolutely. And while it would be a QoL change, there are very few people that will be affected, which cannot be said of the merc change. I don't feel very strongly either way (I prefer one way over the other obviously) but I feel the issue is different to the mercs issue.

parogui
04-29-2014, 04:09 PM
It's pretty simple. If they expire in one week, players are more comitted to log in and join tournaments on a regular basis. That means staying less time in queue, more tournaments per day and players who are not familiar with draft get more chances to love them.

mach
04-29-2014, 04:11 PM
The Pro tier was the only one initially advertised with free drafts. And when those are for life, you don't really lose if you skip a week and lose a ticket, you just take the next one. The year drafts were added much later.


But they were added before the KS closed, right? So people bought the tier with the drafts as part of it. (I think we're a bit off track here.)




If people rare draft, and drop, then yes, it is a poor play experience for the person who got the bye. However, that person is a step closer to a reward (which can easily translate into free packs.) So the person with the bye can simply play PvE while waiting (when that is an option) and be given a reward for someone else rare drafting and dropping.


For many people, the play experience is more important than the final reward (this is a game, right?). Also, this unbalances the draft table as the people setting next to that person essentially get first choice from two packs.



I can see what you are going for. May as well just gift 52 free drafts right now. The idea was to just have a draft drop into your account every week that you could choose to use. Tinkering with how they are used isn't very helpful. And making them not expire just makes them more valuable.


I think I've demonstrated how it is helpful. I also don't see a problem with adding more value, like they did with mercs.



Absolutely. And while it would be a QoL change, there are very few people that will be affected, which cannot be said of the merc change. I don't feel very strongly either way (I prefer one way over the other obviously) but I feel the issue is different to the mercs issue.

There are few people who are directly affected. There is a large number of people who are indirectly affected.

Gwaer
04-29-2014, 04:15 PM
The merc change doesnt affect the entire economy though. Making draft tickets more valuable just seems like a terrible plan, they are already one of the most, if not the most valuable thing that we got out of the kickstarter. They were explained to work during the kickstarter exactly as they do now, and the work has already been done to give them proper expiration times. While changing them to stack does nothing but allow people to play the game less, but still contribute as many extra boosters to the economy as a player that plays constantly.

issowi
04-29-2014, 04:18 PM
Because it would fundamentally change the worth of the tier. I dont want to get too math-y, but the value of the 250 tier drafts is 52-X, where X is the number of drafts you can participate in over the course of the year. If you didn't let the tickets expire, the value would be set to 52, no exceptions.

Now, I can understand not wanting to lose value, but the 250 tier drafts were pure added value , so it is already worth far more than it was originally. The price you paid was for the perks inside the 250 tier, and any drafts you play increase the value by that amount. I am not trying to imply that people should get shafted on it, but they are playing with pure profit, they can't really lose.

As for limiting them to set 1 packs, they were intended to last a year, meaning that set 2 and 3 (and possibly even more) should be available by that time. People would actually lose more value (due to later packs having more worth than set 1 packs) than they would lose from missing a draft a month.


So it seems fair to stick to what was said at the beginning. I wouldn't go around arguing if it was changed, but there is no reason to make this a permanent change right now.

I don't understand the change in value? 52 drafts used once every week versus 52 drafts to be used whenever have the same inherent value no (as you are using all 52 tickets)? If the argument is saving for future set cards is worth more then the argument would be you'll never actually use the tickets because you'll always be waiting to maximize value, no? Conversely if you are given 52 tickets immediately and spend them in some very short time frame (I don't know lets say a week) all within set 1 wouldn't you be marginalizing your value by using them all up for a set that will be outdated within a year?

I don't have any strong opinion on the matter as an FYI. I just find the debate actually interesting (and I find you are interesting to debate ;P). If you force me to have an opinion though I'd say receiving 52 tickets to use at your discretion is preferable but has nothing to do with value of the ticket so much as value of my time. Some week's I'd have more time and some I'd have less.

fido_one
04-29-2014, 04:18 PM
Maybe you regret giving out those rewards in hindsight, but the fact of the matter is the kickstarter exploded in large part because of those rewards: Pro Player sold out way faster than anything else and the free year of drafts was added as an incentive to move those $250 tiers that were not selling as fast.


Gatticus - using this argument you could say 'maybe you regret buying the 250 dollar tier that made it clear you could enter one draft a week' and not stack them up. Overall I'm super happy with the way CZE has dealt with Hex - out of all the things I voice my concern over, how the 'free' weekly drafts operate without stacking has never been one of them, that was made clear on day one with the PP tier [and continued to be clear with the other 250 tiers].

Side note: I tried to wordsmith this so I didn't sound like a total dick in this response and I'm just too tired to do it right. This response sounds more combative than I'd like, apologies, that's not the intent.

GatticusFinch
04-29-2014, 04:35 PM
Gatticus - using this argument you could say 'maybe you regret buying the 250 dollar tier that made it clear you could enter one draft a week' and not stack them up. Overall I'm super happy with the way CZE has dealt with Hex - out of all the things I voice my concern over, how the 'free' weekly drafts operate without stacking has never been one of them, that was made clear on day one with the PP tier [and continued to be clear with the other 250 tiers].

Side note: I tried to wordsmith this so I didn't sound like a total dick in this response and I'm just too tired to do it right. This response sounds more combative than I'd like, apologies, that's not the intent.

This is the issue. It was not made clear that they would not stack. Saying "one free draft per week for life" could mean any number of things, as other people have pointed out. That language could just as equally mean you only get one shot each week, no exceptions, as it could to CZE using actuarial tables to figure out my life expectancy, turn that into weeks, and then give me that many tickets. Under both scenarios, "one free draft per week for life" accurately describes them both.

Hell, take the spectral lotus for example. You get one per day. That seems simple. When does the day start? What timezone? Are they on daily cooldowns? Does it automatically go into my inventory or do I need to claim it? If I get one at 23:55, can I get another one at 00:05? If I can, am I able to use them both at 00:10, or is the one from 23:55 only good for 5 minutes? If I use one at 00:05, will I be unable to claim one at 23:55 to use the next day? These "simple" statements turn out to be not so simple. This is why legal documents are long.

Miwa
04-29-2014, 04:40 PM
For many people, the play experience is more important than the final reward (this is a game, right?). Also, this unbalances the draft table as the people setting next to that person essentially get first choice from two packs.
There are going to be rare drafters no matter what. Take the free win and be happy.


I don't understand the change in value? 52 drafts used once every week versus 52 drafts to be used whenever have the same inherent value no (as you are using all 52 tickets)? If the argument is saving for future set cards is worth more then the argument would be you'll never actually use the tickets because you'll always be waiting to maximize value, no?
Future sets won't have the huge giveaway behind them that Set 1 has. I'll have all the Set 1 cards I'll ever need already, so if I could save drafts, I definitely would for set 2 and 3, since I'll need more cards for those. Many people will be in the same boat.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 04:44 PM
But they were added before the KS closed, right? So people bought the tier with the drafts as part of it. (I think we're a bit off track here.)
[/qoute]

And long after most players already made their 'purchases', which means they suddenly had value added. I wont deny some people bought it purely for the year drafts, but a very large portion bought into those tiers ahead of the change.


[QUOTE=mach;360248]
For many people, the play experience is more important than the final reward (this is a game, right?). Also, this unbalances the draft table as the people setting next to that person essentially get first choice from two packs.


First - they get another shot at that fun play experience if they have more packs, plus through PvE they have no downtime. Not always optimal, but byes will be a thing anyway. And sitting next to a rare drafter is not different from sitting next to a newbie - sometimes they will unknowingly pas the best cards, over and over, and the person next to them just rakes in the profits of anothers folly. You cannot police players picks - pure and simple.



I think I've demonstrated how it is helpful. I also don't see a problem with adding more value, like they did with mercs.


I never denied that it would be helpful. And some people are concerned about every bit of added value i nthe game - some would even claim that adding the year drafts was a mistake in and of itself. (Not me personally, but I know there are some who hold this view.)




There are few people who are directly affected. There is a large number of people who are indirectly affected.

How are people indirectly affected? Because of rare drafting and byes? Both of those scenarios have a flip side that is beneficial to other players, so it is hardly a good argument. I wont deny those situations can, and will upset people, but the number of free drafts out there will dwindle every week (as players decide they are bored, life catches up with them, etc.)



@issowi: The value becomes set at 52 if you just get the tickets, no expiration. If you fail to use one right now, it would expire, meaning your total value would be lower (because you could never exchange that ticket for a draft.) Hence the current value is 52-weeks missed.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 04:47 PM
I feel this warrants it's own post, to keep it separate from my other points - rare drafting and dropping can be a problem, but some people rare draft and still draft well. I myself got 4 rares/1 legendary (grabbed everything passed to me) and still made it to the final round, in good shape.

Rare drafting can be done intelligently. And I feel that is completely separate from the rare drafting and dropping issue, but is completely relevant to standard rare drafting (which people claim is a horrible practice.)

TJTaylor
04-29-2014, 04:48 PM
This is the issue. It was not made clear that they would not stack. Saying "one free draft per week for life" could mean any number of things, as other people have pointed out. That language could just as equally mean you only get one shot each week, no exceptions, as it could to CZE using actuarial tables to figure out my life expectancy, turn that into weeks, and then give me that many tickets. Under both scenarios, "one free draft per week for life" accurately describes them both.

Hell, take the spectral lotus for example. You get one per day. That seems simple. When does the day start? What timezone? Are they on daily cooldowns? Does it automatically go into my inventory or do I need to claim it? If I get one at 23:55, can I get another one at 00:05? If I can, am I able to use them both at 00:10, or is the one from 23:55 only good for 5 minutes? If I use one at 00:05, will I be unable to claim one at 23:55 to use the next day? These "simple" statements turn out to be not so simple. This is why legal documents are long.

Actuarial tables? Seriously?

Cut out the lawyering. This is ridiculous. You don't actually believe what you're saying. You're just trying to sell it.

mach
04-29-2014, 04:50 PM
The merc change doesnt affect the entire economy though. Making draft tickets more valuable just seems like a terrible plan, they are already one of the most, if not the most valuable thing that we got out of the kickstarter. They were explained to work during the kickstarter exactly as they do now, and the work has already been done to give them proper expiration times. While changing them to stack does nothing but allow people to play the game less, but still contribute as many extra boosters to the economy as a player that plays constantly.

I don't count draft&drop as actually playing. Making them not expire weekly means people will play more. I think it's better for someone to actually draft sometime in the future rather than draft&drop today.

This change will probably slightly increase the value of cards in the short term, as people save tickets instead of draft&dropping.


There are going to be rare drafters no matter what. Take the free win and be happy.


Future sets won't have the huge giveaway behind them that Set 1 has. I'll have all the Set 1 cards I'll ever need already, so if I could save drafts, I definitely would for set 2 and 3, since I'll need more cards for those. Many people will be in the same boat.

There will always be rare drafters, but they should not do something which increases the number of draft&droppers.

I've already covered the point about future sets. Tickets granted before Set 2 comes out will only be usable with Set 1 drafts.

issowi
04-29-2014, 04:51 PM
@issowi: The value becomes set at 52 if you just get the tickets, no expiration. If you fail to use one right now, it would expire, meaning your total value would be lower (because you could never exchange that ticket for a draft.) Hence the current value is 52-weeks missed.

Oh oh you are discussing the likely value by the chance people don't (and won't) use the ticket. Thereby you are saying CZE made an assumption that the true value will be less than the theoretical value due to people not using tickets.

Gwaer
04-29-2014, 04:52 PM
I don't consider draft and drop or rare drafting a bad thing. At all, it is the least valuable way for people to use their draft tickets save letting them expire, and it gets people that actually hang out tournament rewards. I've never considered rare drafting a bad thing. Heck, like I've said before, I personally like to force myself to take cards by highest rarity, and still try to make a winning deck out of it.

mach
04-29-2014, 04:59 PM
First - they get another shot at that fun play experience if they have more packs, plus through PvE they have no downtime. Not always optimal, but byes will be a thing anyway. And sitting next to a rare drafter is not different from sitting next to a newbie - sometimes they will unknowingly pas the best cards, over and over, and the person next to them just rakes in the profits of anothers folly. You cannot police players picks - pure and simple.


You get another shot (or a fraction of one), but you don't get the time back. I'm talking more about getting your time's worth than your money's worth here. And if PvE were as much fun, the person would would PvEing in the first place instead of drafting.

As for new players having a similar affect, sure. But that can't really be avoided, whereas this can easily be avoided.



How are people indirectly affected? Because of rare drafting and byes?

Yup. Note that I don't have an issue with normal rare drafting here. If you're rare drafting but are still trying to win that's fine. It's the players who join the queue but do not intend to actually play the games that's the problem and that CZE should try to reduce as much as possible.

jonsnow2000
04-29-2014, 05:04 PM
I would be happy to play all those Rare drafters / Ticket wasters all day and night. Bring them on ;)

But on a more serious note, I'm just amazed how ppl want to squeeze every last ounce of profit from these amazing gifts. This free year of draft is worth over 300$ - I would bet money that a non-trivial amount of ppl would have spent 250$ alone on a tier that simply said "you get one free year of drafts via expiring tickets (Tickets must be used within 1 week)".

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 05:12 PM
You get another shot (or a fraction of one), but you don't get the time back. I'm talking more about getting your time's worth than your money's worth here. And if PvE were as much fun, the person would would PvEing in the first place instead of drafting.

As for new players having a similar affect, sure. But that can't really be avoided, whereas this can easily be avoided.



Yup. Note that I don't have an issue with normal rare drafting here. If you're rare drafting but are still trying to win that's fine. It's the players who join the queue but do not intend to actually play the games that's the problem and that CZE should try to reduce as much as possible.

I don't think that the ticket rare drafting will be all that bad. After a year, a third of all free drafts (give or take, thats a rough estimate) will be gone. In that year, drafting will have a significant boost in activity thanks to these rare drafters who would otherwise have not queued at all.

So I think having a draft fire (where it might not have otherwise) and being able to play 1-2 games instead of 3 (and have a chance to fill that time with PvE) is worth the hassle of the occasional bye.

And I honestly think we will see less than 70% of pro+ players actually using their draft tickets on a regular basis, and I think we will see less than 90% of the year drafts being used on a regular basis, so there will be a lot less rare drafters already. (These are all personal estimates, that I feel are reasonable. I could be wildly incorrect, so take this as hearsay and nothing more.)

Frankly, getting a free draft, and then getting a bye, is fairly good for me if I can PvE on the side. I think a lot of players will view it the same way. I get plenty of value inherently, plus I have the chance to extend my playtime.

GatticusFinch
04-29-2014, 05:14 PM
I would be happy to play all those Rare drafters / Ticket wasters all day and night. Bring them on ;)

But on a more serious note, I'm just amazed how ppl want to squeeze every last ounce of profit from these amazing gifts.

Oh damn, I didn't see where they were giving away these $250 tiers. When did they do that?

Gwaer
04-29-2014, 05:14 PM
When they gave you free drafts for a year for free which is worth more than the purchase price of the whole tier...

GatticusFinch
04-29-2014, 05:19 PM
When they gave you free drafts for a year for free which is worth more than the purchase price of the whole tier...

You mean when I gave them $250 in exchange for "free" drafts for life on the first couple days of the kickstarter...

mach
04-29-2014, 05:22 PM
I don't think that the ticket rare drafting will be all that bad. After a year, a third of all free drafts (give or take, thats a rough estimate) will be gone.


Sure, the issue becomes less important over time. That doesn't change what the better policy is.



In that year, drafting will have a significant boost in activity thanks to these rare drafters who would otherwise have not queued at all.

So I think having a draft fire (where it might not have otherwise) and being able to play 1-2 games instead of 3 (and have a chance to fill that time with PvE) is worth the hassle of the occasional bye.

Do you really think this kind of thing is good for the game? If so, why not have drafts sometimes fire with only 7 people? The 8th slot will be filled by an AI which autopicks the rarest card then drops before r1.

That accomplishes the same thing, right?

Quasari
04-29-2014, 05:23 PM
Do you really think this kind of thing is good for the game? If so, why not have drafts sometimes fire with only 7 people? The 8th slot will be filled by an AI which autopicks the rarest card then drops before r1.

That accomplishes the same thing, right?

Where are the ai's 3 packs and prize pool plat coming from?

hex_colin
04-29-2014, 05:30 PM
I would be happy to play all those Rare drafters / Ticket wasters all day and night. Bring them on ;)

Me too! :) The "lost" games will be more than made up for by being able to play more games from the additional prizes we'd win. And... GOLD!

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 05:33 PM
Sure, the issue becomes less important over time. That doesn't change what the better policy is.

Do you really think this kind of thing is good for the game? If so, why not have drafts sometimes fire with only 7 people? The 8th slot will be filled by an AI which autopicks the rarest card then drops before r1.

That accomplishes the same thing, right?

It does not accomplish the same thing, actually. That player may be in mid-draft and change their mind and stick around. Or someone might fully intend to play, and suddenly are forced to scoop. But in both scenarios the queue fires, and the players all have chances to make informed decisions, which an empty seat could never do.

Also, the rare drafters will take the best value - sometimes a rare is worth utterly nothing, and an AI picker does not know that.

There are many other implications - and rare drafting and scooping is still fine, all things considered.

Even discounting free drafts, rare drafting is still a thing, and players still scoop without playing a game. People do this in real life Magic drafts, and other TCGs - if it is so toxic, why do those players not get banned? Because they are irrelevant to the end result of the tournament. The same is true in Hex.

And MTG doesn't even leave with many options to entertain yourself when you have a bye - less than what Hex will have (since everything MTG can do, Hex can do - browse the internet? Alt+Tab!)

I just see rare drafters who scoop as easy wins and find other things to do if I am the lucky guy with a bye. I will still get to play, so that isn't a worry, and I am more likely to get a chance to play again, which could end up giving me 5 games rather than 3.

mach
04-29-2014, 05:34 PM
Where are the ai's 3 packs and prize pool plat coming from?

The void...the same place where all the cards which the AI drafts will end up.


Me too! :) The "lost" games will be more than made up for by being able to play more games from the additional prizes we'd win. And... GOLD!

I can't imagine you ever running out of product to enter tournaments with....

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 05:37 PM
You mean when I gave them $250 in exchange for "free" drafts for life on the first couple days of the kickstarter...

I am a little confused here, why is your pro tier relevant to what Gwaer said about the year drafts? Lifetime drafts =/= year drafts.

Honestly, yours has almost limitless value, and the year one (which was added much later) has a capped value, of $364-(7xweeks missed). You essentially earn back your pro tier cost in less than a year, then make $364 every year after that. (Just saying, you got an amazing deal and you should be very happy.)

Unless you meant to say 'You mean like when', which completely voids the point of my post. :p

jonsnow2000
04-29-2014, 05:40 PM
You mean when I gave them $250 in exchange for "free" drafts for life on the first couple days of the kickstarter...

Yes, you get exactly that... just with an expiry date. It sours the deal a little bit, but it's still insanely profitable for the player. That's what amazes me - ppl blowing this issue way out of proportion.

Gwaer
04-29-2014, 05:41 PM
That's funny, when I bought my $250 tiers, this is what I thought "I give them $250 so they could pay me back $364 over the course of a year... They're going to pay me back plus an additional $114 for every $250 tier I buy? I'll be rich!"

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 05:43 PM
That's funny, when I bought my $250 tiers, this is what I thought "I give them $250 so they could pay me back $364 over the course of a year... They're going to pay me back plus an additional $114 for every $250 tier I buy? I'll be rich!"

Did you count in the standard 150 boosers, all the starters, all the stretch goal packs and free drafts, etc? :p

Because I would say most of the 250 tiers were worth upwards of $700 all told. And pro is like printing money.

mach
04-29-2014, 05:45 PM
Even discounting free drafts, rare drafting is still a thing, and players still scoop without playing a game. People do this in real life Magic drafts, and other TCGs - if it is so toxic, why do those players not get banned? Because they are irrelevant to the end result of the tournament. The same is true in Hex.

And MTG doesn't even leave with many options to entertain yourself when you have a bye - less than what Hex will have (since everything MTG can do, Hex can do - browse the internet? Alt+Tab!)


Since you brought up MTG, I'll give you two examples of where it had a similar issue.

1. At Limited GPs, those who do well enough on day 1 (Sealed) get to play on day 2 (Draft). There are 2 rounds of draft on day 2 (before the top 8 cut). Once you are eliminated from contention you still get to participate until the end of those rounds. Many of these players would rare draft and drop. Their solution? Offer 3 packs to those who dropped before the second draft started, so players no longer had the incentive to stay in even if they weren't going to win anything.

2. On MTGO, there was a monthly tournament which you qualified for by earning enough QPs during the month. Many players who qualify were unable to play in it or didn't want to. However, when the format was Sealed, they would register anyway, so they'd get the contents of 6 packs for free. Their solution? The tournaments became phantom, so there was no longer any benefit of registering if you weren't going to play.

I'm proposing a similar solution here. Remove the incentive for players to join events which they don't intend to play.

GatticusFinch
04-29-2014, 05:48 PM
I think we should create a thread where you two just talk to yourselves back and forth and place bets on which one of you dies first from Hex overload.

None of these tiers are "printing money." There is no way to extract actual money from the game. You are potentially saving yourself money that you may have possibly spent in the future, and the expiration of the tickets is directly reducing the amount of that potential savings.

Gwaer
04-29-2014, 05:48 PM
But that's also removing the purpose of the free drafts at all.

The point of the tickets is to make drafts fire quickly, and regularly when the game first launches. It is supposed to drive drafts. The may still be necessary early on with a limited tester base, so giving up that benefit turns the entire ticket situation into a loss. They want them expiring, because they want X draft queues firing every week minumum.


I think we should create a thread where you two just talk to yourselves back and forth and place bets on which one of you dies first from Hex overload.

None of these tiers are "printing money." There is no way to extract actual money from the game. You are potentially saving yourself money that you may have possibly spent in the future, and the expiration of the tickets is directly reducing the amount of that potential savings.

That's patently false, heck just look at the htp shop. If I'm getting all these free drafts and packs, those are free cards that can potentially be sold for cash. That is money in the bank my friend.

jonsnow2000
04-29-2014, 05:49 PM
Did you count in the standard 150 boosers, all the starters, all the stretch goal packs and free drafts, etc? :p

Because I would say most of the 250 tiers were worth upwards of $700 all told. And pro is like printing money. And that is why those Kickstarter codes fetch double or more than their initial asking price on the black market, expiry date or not.

GatticusFinch
04-29-2014, 05:57 PM
That's patently false, heck just look at the htp shop. If I'm getting all these free drafts and packs, those are free cards that can potentially be sold for cash. That is money in the bank my friend.

What? Where have they ever said we can legitimately sell these for cash? Can we convert platinum to cash? I haven't seen it, and I know they have said we can't sell accounts.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 05:59 PM
I think we should create a thread where you two just talk to yourselves back and forth and place bets on which one of you dies first from Hex overload.

None of these tiers are "printing money." There is no way to extract actual money from the game. You are potentially saving yourself money that you may have possibly spent in the future, and the expiration of the tickets is directly reducing the amount of that potential savings.

Other than Gwaers post above, I just want to say this - if you dropped $250+ on Hex, and end up enjoying it, you would be saving yourself and insane amount of money in the long run for making a smart purchase so early in the life of the game.

It wouldn't be printing money exactly, but it would absolutely be printing opportunities to earn rewards without actually putting in more money, which ends up essentially the same as printing money to those who would invest ;arge amounts over an extended period of time.

So I feel justified in that.


And Mach, Gwaer answered your point the same way I would have - MTG can offer free boosters and use byes easily in the physical format because they don't require 8 people to start a draft. And the phantom rewards are null and void, because they didn't pay for the privilege in the first place. (At least not directly.)

But Hex needs those seats filled by players.

Chark
04-29-2014, 05:59 PM
Please explain this from the lens of the developer then, because I also think it is bad design.

Three benefits:

1. There is value in having players logging into their account on a weekly cadence. Do you think that WoW's raid lockouts and LoL's free champion rotations where coincidentally set to 1 week?

2. These players contribute to critical mass of players in the draft queues. Asking players to log in once a week to draft, rather then once a month to do 4 drafts smooths out the chances that there are 8 players online who want to draft.

3. Having tickets expire ensures that the players don't hoard these until set two or three drafts. Instead things are more evenly split along all of the set releases.



Maybe you regret giving out those rewards in hindsight, but the fact of the matter is the kickstarter exploded in large part because of those rewards: Pro Player sold out way faster than anything else and the free year of drafts was added as an incentive to move those $250 tiers that were not selling as fast.

That's a pretty cynical way to look at things. We added the 1 year of free drafts to bring the other 250 tiers closer to the Pro Player (to make things more fair for our players). If we wanted to move tiers, we could have just made pro player unlimited. Or we could have made a slightly worse 'Semi-Pro Tier' that gave away drafts at a slight worse rate. Or we could have 'forced' you to buy the 500 dollar tier to get at the free drafts.



I see almost no downside to letting them stack to some limited amount. Say, you can have 3 of them in your inventory, max, and then the 4th one gets trashed if you already have 3. It's a quality of life change that has will reduce the number of draft and drops considerably.

You're moving the goal posts here. The original post argued for removing the expiration date entirely. But two of my three points above still hold.



If the idea is to make tickets scarce to force people to buy more of them, I think you are seriously underestimating the draw of draft to people already dropping hundreds of dollars on Hex, sight unseen. Very few people spending that kind of up front money on the game intend to only ever use that one draft ticket.
That's not the idea at all. We know that most people who have a 1 draft a week code will likely draft more often.

Gwaer
04-29-2014, 06:00 PM
http://hextcgpro.com/store/

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 06:03 PM
Thanks for chiming in Chark! I found those reasons to be far more solid than those I was able to rationalise. And very interesting to read.

mach
04-29-2014, 06:13 PM
1. There is value in having players logging into their account on a weekly cadence. Do you think that WoW's raid lockouts and LoL's free champion rotations where coincidentally set to 1 week?


I'm unfamiliar with LoL, but I know that for WoW the reason for raid lockouts was the opposite. They were trying trying to prevent people from burning through content too quickly by limiting how frequently you could do it. Additionally, this doesn't enforce a weekly cadence, since you can use one lockout at the beginning and the next at the end. So if you desire, you can log in once every 2 weeks and get full value.





2. These players contribute to critical mass of players in the draft queues. Asking players to log in once a week to draft, rather then once a month to do 4 drafts smooths out the chances that there are 8 players online who want to draft.


Won't this concentrate players during the time right before tickets are expiring? Lots of people love to procrastinate. I also only see this as a good thing if people are actually playing rather than draft and dropping.



3. Having tickets expire ensures that the players don't hoard these until set two or three drafts. Instead things are more evenly split along all of the set releases.


Already addressed this point. Easily solvable by making tickets granted before set 2 comes out only usable for set 1 drafts.

Quasari
04-29-2014, 06:15 PM
What? Where have they ever said we can legitimately sell these for cash? Can we convert platinum to cash? I haven't seen it, and I know they have said we can't sell accounts.

hextcgpro's store with preorders was already linked, they got the ok from CZE. They've talked about wanting a way to convert plat back to money, but stated that the legal stuff is pretty hard to find a good system.

GatticusFinch
04-29-2014, 06:17 PM
Three benefits:

1. There is value in having players logging into their account on a weekly cadence. Do you think that WoW's raid lockouts and LoL's free champion rotations where coincidentally set to 1 week?



Does that value outstrip the negative of only logging in to draft and drop?

You can't compare the free champion rotation in LoL to the drafts that people paid a considerable amount of money for--if I don't play a free champion in LoL I am out no product, but I am losing my Hex product I already paid for if I don't log into Hex. Mach's answer about WoW is correct, it was a content access limiter.


2. These players contribute to critical mass of players in the draft queues. Asking players to log in once a week to draft, rather then once a month to do 4 drafts smooths out the chances that there are 8 players online who want to draft.

Again, if they are only logging in to draft and drop, is it worth it? As you say below, you don't really think people who spent this much money on the game will go 4 weeks without using a ticket. If you did, then your problem is worse--people won't log in at at all for 3 weeks, log in the 4th week, and only be able to populate one queue. So, really, this is purely a QoL change for rare instances.


3. Having tickets expire ensures that the players don't hoard these until set two or three drafts. Instead things are more evenly split along all of the set releases.

You'd admit this is pretty easy to remedy, right? When season two comes out, only tickets earned after that will work with season two boosters. Simple.


That's a pretty cynical way to look at things. We added the 1 year of free drafts to bring the other 250 tiers closer to the Pro Player (to make things more fair for our players). If we wanted to move tiers, we could have just made pro player unlimited. Or we could have made a slightly worse 'Semi-Pro Tier' that gave away drafts at a slight lesser rate. Or we could have 'forced' you to buy the 500 dollar tier to get at the free drafts.

Except you made my Pro Player tier slightly worse by giving part of it to everyone, right? Adding that free year to the other three tiers, assuming they all sold out, injected 468,000 additional set one packs into the economy. Now, you are letting people who bought multiple tiers with free drafts stack them all, but the earliest of early adopters who bought out the Pro Player tier can't get a simple QoL change?



You're moving the goal posts here. The original post argued for removing the expiration date entirely. But two of my three points above still hold.

Those weren't my goal posts. I was asking for 3 week stacking in a number of other threads.


That's not the idea at all. We know that most people who have a 1 draft a week code will likely draft more often.

Then if some small percentage of them would miss a week here and there, certainly letting them stack some small amount is no big deal, right? Give them some relief when life gets in the way? That's pretty circular.

GatticusFinch
04-29-2014, 06:21 PM
hextcgpro's store with preorders was already linked, they got the ok from CZE. They've talked about wanting a way to convert plat back to money, but stated that the legal stuff is pretty hard to find a good system.

I'm still confused. Hextcgpro is going to sell them for money. Where do they get cards? Do they pay cash for them from users or is this going to be MtGO trading for event tickets? If it is the latter, than there is no possible way to extract money back out of my kickstarter tier as was suggested.

Quasari
04-29-2014, 06:23 PM
I'm still confused. Hextcgpro is going to sell them for money. Where do they get cards? Do they pay cash for them from users or is this going to be MtGO trading for event tickets? If it is the latter, than there is no possible way to extract money back out of my kickstarter tier as was suggested.

They opened packs and are going to give them to players once they can trade/mail them. Basically they opened all their kickstarter packs, inventoried them, and put em up for sell. Their store accepts cash basically(well credit, but meh).

GatticusFinch
04-29-2014, 06:26 PM
They opened packs and are going to give them to players once they can trade/mail them. Basically they opened all their kickstarter packs, inventoried them, and put em up for sell. Their store accepts cash basically(well credit, but meh).

What? They were allowed to do this but individuals are not allowed to do this? I assumed the auction house was going to cut out the middle man for sale bots, but are we going to have a sanctioned, for-cash system on the side? Will I be able to sell alternate art pack raptors to them for cash and they will then resell them in the future?

Yoss
04-29-2014, 06:27 PM
There has been a staff post that said you should get the next one exactly one week from when you redeemed your draft code.

Someone have a source link for this? I was thinking/hoping it would be a weekly reset for everyone in common, but any clarification is good.

Quasari
04-29-2014, 06:28 PM
What? They were allowed to do this but individuals are not allowed to do this? I assumed the auction house was going to cut out the middle man for sale bots, but are we going to have a sanctioned, for-cash system on the side? Will I be able to sell alternate art pack raptors to them for cash and they will then resell them in the future?

Besides if they sanctioned it for them, that's basically saying selling cards for cash is fine, so I'm sure the individual can do this. Other than that I don't have enough information.

GatticusFinch
04-29-2014, 06:32 PM
Besides if they sanctioned it for them, that's basically saying selling cards for cash is fine, so I'm sure the individual can do this. Other than that I don't have enough information.

That makes sense, but I doubt that is what was intended, because the next question people will have is selling kickstarter rewards and full accounts.

Marsden
04-29-2014, 06:40 PM
Someone have a source link for this? I was thinking/hoping it would be a weekly reset for everyone in common, but any clarification is good.

https://twitter.com/HexTCG/status/461215255247343616

" if you redeemed your seperate Free Draft code, you should have the ticket reset 7 days from when you redeemed."

GatticusFinch
04-29-2014, 06:46 PM
https://twitter.com/HexTCG/status/461215255247343616

" if you redeemed your seperate Free Draft code, you should have the ticket reset 7 days from when you redeemed."

What does it do if I miss a week? Seven days from the first time I redeemed one however long ago? That's lousy. I'd rather see a set time for everyone.

Marsden
04-29-2014, 06:50 PM
If you miss a week the ticket feels sad and unwanted.

Gwaer
04-29-2014, 06:52 PM
Selling accounts is against the Eula and it will be banned. The cards however are full secondary market applicable. If people want to pay money for them more power to them. Account selling is expressly prohibited though.

GatticusFinch
04-29-2014, 06:52 PM
If you miss a week the ticket feels sad and unwanted.

No, from what I am reading in this thread, CZE euthanizes it to guilt trip me into logging on once a week, regardless of real life getting in the way.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 06:58 PM
What does it do if I miss a week? Seven days from the first time I redeemed one however long ago? That's lousy. I'd rather see a set time for everyone.

I agree that a flat/set reset time is absolutely the best solution here. Tracking all the different timers ingame is going to be pure hell.

Marsden
04-29-2014, 07:07 PM
No, from what I am reading in this thread, CZE euthanizes it to guilt trip me into logging on once a week, regardless of real life getting in the way.

That's why it's sad.

And, yeah...er, that's not a surprise is it? We've always known the draft/week wasn't some sort of cumulative resource. You have to login and actually use it that week to use that week's draft ticket.

GatticusFinch
04-29-2014, 07:09 PM
That's why it's sad.

And, yeah...er, that's not a surprise is it? We've always known the draft/week wasn't some sort of cumulative resource. You have to login and actually use it that week to use that week's draft ticket.

Yeah, the issue is how cumulative. I would like to see it stack some limited amount for the times life gets in the way, but I haven't seen a response to that. The only response has been shooting down indefinite stacking, which I understand to a degree.

LordGorchnik
04-29-2014, 07:37 PM
I read through all 7 pages and I am......so confused.

I have 3 Draft Tickets sitting in my inventory stash. What exactly do I need to do with these to make sure I have them once tournaments are back up and running?

And in hindsight, why are Cryptozoic forcing us to use these draft tickets now. The game is still in beta for Christs sake. At least let the game hit retail/launch before making them expire.

Niedar
04-29-2014, 07:38 PM
You have to do nothing, those tickets do not expire.

Xenavire
04-29-2014, 07:38 PM
I read through all 7 pages and I am......so confused.

I have 3 Draft Tickets sitting in my inventory stash. What exactly do I need to do with these to make sure I have them once tournaments are back up and running?

And in hindsight, why are Cryptozoic forcing us to use these draft tickets now. The game is still in beta for Christs sake. At least let the game hit retail/launch before making them expire.

From what tier did you receive those tickets? From king and below, those do not expire, ever.

elfstone
04-29-2014, 07:46 PM
Yes. the 3 free drafts that alor of people got have no expiration date. This is for the 250+ weekly drafts. Those have a 1 week shelf life. Doesn't bother me really, even as a PP. I agree with no stacking on those tickets. Really if you can't find 3 hours in 1 week then you lead one helluva busy life. And if your going on vacation, then who gives a damn about a lousy draft. I'll take a cruise to a draft any day.

Although knowing me I'd be drafting on the cruise...

Freebird_Falcon
04-29-2014, 08:10 PM
Really if you can't find 3 hours in 1 week...

Exactly! If you bought a pro player tier, and you can't find the time to log in to play 1 draft a week, are you really a pro player? Or were you just trying to game the tier for value, which is all the expiration removal requests sound like to me. And since the drafts per week were added later to the other tiers to bring them closer to perceived value, they are still in the spirit of the pro player and should retain the same restriction. The tiers already have ridiculous value. It's embarrassing to witness arguments for more.

I'm all for staggered ticket expiration based on account redemption. It will help alleviate this perceived crisis of draft and drop if everyone's tickets expire on different days. I'd imagine if tickets expired every week on <Saturday>, that there'd be complaints of having to entirely avoid playing on <Saturdays> because of this "issue."

Mike411
04-29-2014, 08:25 PM
Exactly! If you bought a pro player tier, and you can't find the time to log in to play 1 draft a week, are you really a pro player?

Lemme stop you right there. You do not need to consider yourself a pro player to have wanted the rewards that tier offered :p

Anyhow, I'm a 'pro player' and I'm completely fine with the weekly expiry and for tickets to appear on different days. We want people to find drafts quickly on all days :)

Freebird_Falcon
04-29-2014, 09:05 PM
You do not need to consider yourself a pro player to have wanted the rewards that tier offered :p

Right. However, you do need to look at the intent/spirit behind the $250 tiers. They were targeted at different types of players. Is it unreasonable to say that a draft per week for life, under a title of pro player, is targeted at people who expect to draft frequently, if not daily? To think they aren't going to design the reward around that intent, while also maintaining their business interest, seems pretty willfully ignorant. I don't see how an expiration is unacceptable when it balances well between meeting the reward requirement and the health of the game.

Even if you changed the expiration to be by sets, there's no guarantee you wouldn't have people forgetting/neglecting to use them (since they apparently can't/barely log in once a week) and mass draft-and-dropping at a set's expiration.

Reifu
04-29-2014, 11:46 PM
They were EXTREMELY clear that the draft/week was "use it every week or you lose it" during the kickstarter. I read it many, many times during that period.

Fine, some people seem to think that it is bad design. I do not, for many of the reasons Chark put forth. Could they change it to last a few weeks? Sure, but that would just be giving more monetary value to a small group that already got massive value. The mercenary change was good for ALL people regardless of when they join. That was the main issue of the mercenaries, you were locked out unless you were around at the right time.

Also rare-drafters are not bad for people, it is good. You get prizes for free if you get paired against one, how is that bad? Go play PvE (after launch) while waiting for the next round and chuckle at your good luck to get at least 2 boosters for free. In fact, once async tournaments go live it is an instant free win with the next match starting immediately.

Gwaer
04-29-2014, 11:51 PM
Async draft will pretty much never be a thing. Ruins a lot of the point of drafting, otherwise great post.

Reifu
04-30-2014, 12:02 AM
Async draft will pretty much never be a thing. Ruins a lot of the point of drafting, otherwise great post.
I don't agree with you there. I think async drafting will work very well for 90% of the population, who don't really care about signals, knowing what other people might have etc. Of course all big tournaments will use normal draft, but if they implement async draft for normal 8-man queues I think it will be far more popular than normal draft queues.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 12:07 AM
I believe they have a special asynch mode they're going to be using that is super hushhush to replace asynch draft instead.

But time will tell.

Rapkannibale
04-30-2014, 01:15 AM
I agree that they should expire. In addition to the implications on the economy and the value, they are also a good retention feature. Sure some players may not be able to use all of them (I am sure I will miss some ) but it is a great way to get people playing drafts which is good for everyone. And yes even if people rare draft I think it's good. I don't really care if others rare draft making their decks a bit weaker. It either means someone else has a better chance at beating them or they get a bye (or is it buy?).

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 03:41 AM
I don't agree with you there. I think async drafting will work very well for 90% of the population, who don't really care about signals, knowing what other people might have etc. Of course all big tournaments will use normal draft, but if they implement async draft for normal 8-man queues I think it will be far more popular than normal draft queues.

You forget how draft is balanced - you are meant to fight in the group you drafted with, because that limits the cards you will see. You don't want to face 3 people that all drafted 5 murders and a bunch of other amazing cards, that weren't even in your pool, do you? Defeats the purpose of drafting, may as well just do sealed.

Reifu
04-30-2014, 04:08 AM
You forget how draft is balanced - you are meant to fight in the group you drafted with, because that limits the cards you will see. You don't want to face 3 people that all drafted 5 murders and a bunch of other amazing cards, that weren't even in your pool, do you? Defeats the purpose of drafting, may as well just do sealed.
I am just saying that it is a different game from normal draft, but one that I think would be very popular none the less. Note that this is the more casual version of draft, probably more swiss style where you can play X games and get a pack for every win for instance.

What difference do you honestly think it makes to most people if they meet someone with a great deck from another pool or from their own? They could just as easily been really lucky on the other side of the table from you and opened and got passed 5 murders without you ever seeing even one. The fun part about drafting for many is just getting to pick cards and trying a new kind of deck every time because the cards you open are different and the players you draft against are different every time.

The small nuances that experienced drafters enjoy, like hate drafting, keeping track of what has been drafted or not, knowing the print runs and predicting what other people have etc, are simply concepts that most non-professionals don't care about. They open their packs, see a card they like, take it, and then hope they get more cards they like so they can build a deck.

So I totally understand the hesitation from people who really enjoy draft for all it's glory, but async drafting in my mind would simply be a very good alternative for casuals and those who love draft but can't sit down and do a 2-3 hour uninterrupted session very often. I would certainly use the async draft quite a bit due to family obligations. Sealed, while fun sometimes, is simply not as much fun due to not having any skill or choice involved in picking the cards.

Just look at how popular Hearthstone Arena became. Async Hex draft would be much more fun and varied than that, but just as easy to enter and play when you have time.

Of course CZE might figure out an even more fun alternative, but I totally think a majority of people (after open beta / launch) would be fine drafting their deck with 7 random people and then playing any random players that have joined the async drafting queue (for that set).

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 04:21 AM
I am just saying that it is a different game from normal draft, but one that I think would be very popular none the less. Note that this is the more casual version of draft, probably more swiss style where you can play X games and get a pack for every win for instance.

What difference do you honestly think it makes to most people if they meet someone with a great deck from another pool or from their own? They could just as easily been really lucky on the other side of the table from you and opened and got passed 5 murders without you ever seeing even one. The fun part about drafting for many is just getting to pick cards and trying a new kind of deck every time because the cards you open are different and the players you draft against are different every time.

The small nuances that experienced drafters enjoy, like hate drafting, keeping track of what has been drafted or not, knowing the print runs and predicting what other people have etc, are simply concepts that most non-professionals don't care about. They open their packs, see a card they like, take it, and then hope they get more cards they like so they can build a deck.

So I totally understand the hesitation from people who really enjoy draft for all it's glory, but async drafting in my mind would simply be a very good alternative for casuals and those who love draft but can't sit down and do a 2-3 hour uninterrupted session very often. I would certainly use the async draft quite a bit due to family obligations. Sealed, while fun sometimes, is simply not as much fun due to not having any skill or choice involved in picking the cards.

Just look at how popular Hearthstone Arena became. Async Hex draft would be much more fun and varied than that, but just as easy to enter and play when you have time.

Of course CZE might figure out an even more fun alternative, but I totally think a majority of people (after open beta / launch) would be fine drafting their deck with 7 random people and then playing any random players that have joined the async drafting queue (for that set).

I am not saying it shouldn't exist, really, just that it stops being draft if you leave the group to play elsewhere. It would be a new format. And it isn't the time to add new formats, it wont be for a long time.

I still think that any kind of drafting format should stay in the group, but a brand new format could work sometime, maybe in a few years.

Reifu
04-30-2014, 04:30 AM
I am not saying it shouldn't exist, really, just that it stops being draft if you leave the group to play elsewhere. It would be a new format. And it isn't the time to add new formats, it wont be for a long time.

I still think that any kind of drafting format should stay in the group, but a brand new format could work sometime, maybe in a few years.
Sorry, but I entirely disagree with you. Async drafts would be quite easy to implement and likely be a huge draw. Why do you suggest to wait years for something like that? Is it that important to you to keep drafting group-only?

I have seen you make statements like this before, like that the user interface is great as it is and shouldn't be changed for a long time. I think you sometimes underestimate what is extremely important to other people. The user interface is one of the reasons it as taken me this long to start getting into Hex (ever after going Pro + 2xKing). And a lack of async draft/sealed is what will keep me from playing as much as I would like. I doubt I am alone in this.

What could be more important than getting people into the game and playing as much as possible? Well besides fixing the current bugs/issues etc.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 04:40 AM
But people will be playing regardless of whether an async draft option exists - you would simply add another queue. Take a look around at all the people who dislike the idea of adding any formats at this point in time due to queue times. Look at Chark in this very thread, saying the expiring tickets are designed to boost attendance.

That is why it should be tabled, until such time as it is viable. Plus it would take a lot more work than you would think - they don't even have asynch ready yet.

I don't hate the idea (even though I would be unlikely to use it) but it isn't feasible now.

And my thoughts on the UI? I like how it is right now. It could use improvement, but that shouldn't be prioritised over new features (like trading and the AH, or PvE.) Luckily, they have some people who have more time to work on polish than other parts of the game, so there are likely to be incremental improvements.

Gorgol
04-30-2014, 04:47 AM
If i want async, i will go play hearthstone arena

TJTaylor
04-30-2014, 04:49 AM
Just want to point out that there is going to be async sealed, as far as I know.

Async draft though... I have to agree with others that it doesn't really make sense. The whole point of draft is to build a bunch of decks out of a specific pod of cards and may the best deck win. It isn't really a draft if you make it async. It is some other kind of format entirely and an unnecessary one in my opinion.

Reifu
04-30-2014, 04:52 AM
The difference is that async brings in more players, because they can now play when they otherwise couldn't. I don't know your living situation, but when I lived alone and had 6+ hours every day to do whatever I wanted I wouldn't have cared about async just like you. Now, there is not much else that is more important for my gaming experience. I could probably draft 2-3 times as much if there was async. That is 2-3 times as much revenue for CZE. That is how you boost attendance.

Of course queue times are low, we are in closed beta. Wait until 20 000 people want to draft at the same time. That time will come sooner than we think, as long as CZE play their cards right (no pun intended). ;)

As for the UI, it really need a major overhaul before open beta in my opinion. I think a lot of people will be put off otherwise. Perhaps they can be gained back for launch, perhaps not. I just think some people underestimate the importance of a good UI. Hearthstone would NOT have been nearly as popular as it is if it looked like it did in Alpha (I saw some screenshots of early versions). The polish and feel of the game is one part of what brought in the masses.

Reifu
04-30-2014, 04:55 AM
Or am I the only one with a full time job + wife and kids here? Does everyone else have tons of time to play whenever they want for however long they want?

Reifu
04-30-2014, 04:58 AM
If i want async, i will go play hearthstone arena

I am sorry, but that is about as silly as if someone said that if they want PvE they will go play WoW.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 05:05 AM
Or am I the only one with a full time job + wife and kids here? Does everyone else have tons of time to play whenever they want for however long they want?

I just make arrangements to have spare time - I do happen to have a lot anyway, but if you want to participate, you make the time.

I see couples with children still having date nights. The same kind of organisation applies. You could get your kids in bed, and you and your wife each take 3 hours for personal time - you can spend your time on a draft if you want. It is all about managing your time - if your time is more important than your hobby, shouldn't the hobby take a back seat?

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 05:08 AM
For the record, I am actually put off by the Hearthstone menus and deck builder. In-game is fine.

So UI features are viewed subjectively. You can't speak for the majority, so I spoke for myself. I like it.

Proving grounds needs work though.

vickrpg
04-30-2014, 05:10 AM
Or am I the only one with a full time job + wife and kids here? Does everyone else have tons of time to play whenever they want for however long they want?
I don't think anyone is against async tournaments reifu, we all have time constraints, and drafting, by definition takes a long time.

The issue we're having isn't disagreeing about time, and async tournaments. We all want Async sealed. async constructed would be nice too... but for people who have ever played a draft, hearing "async draft" sound very much like "giant midget", "fun boredom" or any other oxymoron. we're not saying it can't exist, we're saying that when it does, it is no longer a draft really, and something new and different. after playing arena in hearthstone, It is quite enjoyable, but it is definitely not draft. It's a totally new format. but considering that we already have 6 tournament formats that are not working, most of us who are arguing against you would rather have those working and having an established player base before coming up with new formats. having async options available soon will A) delay other features we're looking forward to and B) reduce the number of players in the queues that will need it the most, making the time requirements for draft even longer.

I hope they implement "async draft" in the future, but I hope it is done in a way that won't break the format that I already enjoy.

Reifu
04-30-2014, 05:33 AM
I just make arrangements to have spare time - I do happen to have a lot anyway, but if you want to participate, you make the time.

I see couples with children still having date nights. The same kind of organisation applies. You could get your kids in bed, and you and your wife each take 3 hours for personal time - you can spend your time on a draft if you want. It is all about managing your time - if your time is more important than your hobby, shouldn't the hobby take a back seat?

Yes, and arrangements to have spare time is why I have time to do maybe one or two normal drafts per week as it is. I have plenty of time to play a match every now and then, even during times like lunch breaks or after the kids sleep. Which is why async is so extremely brilliant and the best thing that came out of Hearthstone. But arena is nowhere near as much fun as drafting. Nor is sealed. But I am beginning to understand that draft for some people means "exactly 8 people drafting and then playing each other and no one else". While I agree it is the best and most fair way to competitively draft, it is hardly the only way to draft.


For the record, I am actually put off by the Hearthstone menus and deck builder. In-game is fine.

So UI features are viewed subjectively. You can't speak for the majority, so I spoke for myself. I like it.

Proving grounds needs work though.
Well sure the stuff like if you like the coloring and graphical elements and structure are subjective. But card text being totally unreadable when it should easily be readable, card manager loading extremely slow the first time you run the client (and semi-slow otherwise), very common screen resolutions missing, touch support missing, windows behaving strangely (like chat), seconds-long pauses when clicking ui-buttons and much much more is not subjective. It is just unfinished, and needs fixing before public release. If it doesn't bother you that's fine, but you have to understand that it will bother a lot of other people.


The issue we're having isn't disagreeing about time, and async tournaments. We all want Async sealed. async constructed would be nice too... but for people who have ever played a draft, hearing "async draft" sound very much like "giant midget", "fun boredom" or any other oxymoron. we're not saying it can't exist, we're saying that when it does, it is no longer a draft really, and something new and different. after playing arena in hearthstone, It is quite enjoyable, but it is definitely not draft. It's a totally new format. but considering that we already have 6 tournament formats that are not working, most of us who are arguing against you would rather have those working and having an established player base before coming up with new formats. having async options available soon will A) delay other features we're looking forward to and B) reduce the number of players in the queues that will need it the most, making the time requirements for draft even longer.
Well count me as someone who has played a LOT of draft, including professionally in MTG on Pro Tour level, who does not see async draft as an oxymoron and in fact can't understand how people can see it as such. On a competitive level - I agree. To be equal and fair it needs to be in groups. But casually? I can't see it. Sometimes we draft 4 people for fun. Is that also not a draft? What if we were 16 people on one table? Would that not be a draft? For me, drafting = picking a card from a pack and then the next person picks one and so on. Then you build your deck. Everything else is just "best-practice".

But apparently I am the only one on right now who thinks async draft would be one of the best thing to happen to this game. So no use arguing it more until CZE either implements it or not. I really do think and hope they will (or some brilliant new alternative). No use dragging on the discussion, I have already slacked off enough from work as it is! :)

Gorgol
04-30-2014, 05:43 AM
Well count me as someone who has played a LOT of draft, including professionally in MTG on Pro Tour level, who does not see async draft as an oxymoron and in fact can't understand how people can see it as such. On a competitive level - I agree. To be equal and fair it needs to be in groups. But casually? I can't see it. Sometimes we draft 4 people for fun. Is that also not a draft? What if we were 16 people on one table? Would that not be a draft? For me, drafting = picking a card from a pack and then the next person picks one and so on. Then you build your deck. Everything else is just "best-practice".

But apparently I am the only one on right now who thinks async draft would be one of the best thing to happen to this game. So no use arguing it more until CZE either implements it or not. I really do think and hope they will (or some brilliant new alternative). No use dragging on the discussion, I have already slacked off enough from work as it is! :)

I think for me its hard to wrap my head around the whole, X people have X packs and pick one card and pass, once they make decks, then what? They go into a pool to play against other random people who have done the same, thus making the entire initial process of picking cards a disconnect from the playing portion? This is the main problem I have with Hearthstone arena. The card choices I get have 0 bearing on what I am facing in my arena matches. In a traditional draft, I can read into what is being passed and pick/counter pick based on what I am seeing go by. This directly influences the matches I face. If I see multiple of card X I know there is a high chance I will need to deal with card X in my matches. This falls apart (in my mind) when it comes to async drafting.

It isn't the # of people "at the table" it is the closed system of cards that are then played against each other.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 05:58 AM
Lots of games have incomplete UI features when they reach open beta. As long as they deal with certain vital cases (like the chat bugs) and the screen resolutions, then everything is 'good enough' for beta.

And I am sorry, but touch support missing is not an issue that needs to be dealt with before open beta. The game has been built for keyboard and mouse - touch support is like controller support - nice but non-vital. And I am sure they will be able to port that feature in from tablets, when that is ready.

And a fair few of your points are actually subjective. I don't see the need to be able to read un-zoomed cards, other people do see the need. It isn't just black and white.

meetthefuture
04-30-2014, 06:02 AM
Everything else is just "best-practice".

When you are drafting, you note which cards you pass and you an guess what you should or should not expect on the table - and this is important.
Also, in draft you have some sort of conrol on your opponents. I don't want to lose the game because someone else on some other table have passed the volcannon and a couple of elimination specialists without thinking. This way, the draft will lose one of it's major parts - the counterdrafting

Reifu
04-30-2014, 07:13 AM
Damn, couldn't stay away... :p

I get the thing about controlling your draft/opponents, that is what good players do in a draft. But remember that most casual players aren't good players. And trust me when I say that most players in Hex (if successful) will be casual, not pro. They will draft to have fun, not to go infinite. After they have made a pick they have no idea what went past. For them, the disconnect doesn't matter and isn't even noticed. Even for me, when I play for fun (which 8-mans are for me) I don't care about remembering exactly what goes by or try to counter stuff (unless absolutely nothing useful). I just read signals (which would still be there) and pick the best deck I can. I usually do well anyway. I've played two drafts in hex so far and won both. I doubt my experience would have changed if it was async, apart from much shorter waiting times between matches and not having to play all 3 matches in one go.

Anyway, like I said, ain't gonna argue my case anymore. I am sure CZE has something spectacular planned with regards to Async play. :D


Lots of games have incomplete UI features when they reach open beta. As long as they deal with certain vital cases (like the chat bugs) and the screen resolutions, then everything is 'good enough' for beta.

And I am sorry, but touch support missing is not an issue that needs to be dealt with before open beta. The game has been built for keyboard and mouse - touch support is like controller support - nice but non-vital. And I am sure they will be able to port that feature in from tablets, when that is ready.

And a fair few of your pointa are actually subjective. I don't see the need to be able to read un-zoomed cards, other people do see the need. It isn't just black and white.
Well... Chat bug is easily way less important to me that they fix than being able to read the cards. Who cares about chat? How does that impact the game? They could disable chat entirely. Reading the cards is the most important thing there is for every new player!

So I guess everything is subjective and they could copy the MTGO UI and be fine because clearly we can't even say that MTGO is terrible in that case. ;)

The thing is for me, subjectivity is about which things you like and don't like much, or you feel are important or not. For me, I don't care much for the "space" theme of Hex. All the black and feeling like you are in outer space. It doesn't bother me much anymore, but my initial reaction was that it looked a bit dated. Also I know touch is not a must, I just popped it in because I really want it so I can play in bed and I loved how well Hearthstone worked with touch from the get go. So I agree, that is subjective!

Things that some people don't notice/need/care about and others smash their keyboards to pieces in frustration over (or just quit playing because of) are things that you need to fix if you want to be successful. Also, being a developer, there are some things that simply are expected of a UI. Some people might not care at all if they aren't there, but you still need to follow a certain standard (or flow) or a lot of players will become annoyed. A small thing like putting buttons in the wrong place or making a window slightly smaller than it should be or using the wrong type of font or color or not being obvious enough about what something does can make or break an UI.

Just look at how many complaints came from the "Open 10 packs" button not being obvious or clear enough. The first time I opened the UI I just hovered over the button and saw what it did, no issue. But I can still clearly see and agree that it wasn't done very well. If people get upset and angry over a UI element, you have done it wrong. If people just don't like it much or don't care for the style, that is ok, you can't please everyone.

But I guess that is my subjective opinion as well. ;)

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 08:07 AM
My main point is that you can zoom in to read cards. It is intended at this point in the game, and they are well aware it is a complaint. But at the core of the matter, can players read the cards? Yes, with a single click/scroll.

The only players being 'punished' by that feature are the lazy ones or the ones expecting too much.

Remember, the standard practice for new players seeing new cards is to pick it up and look at it closely. I have yet to actually see a brand new player (who has never played a TCG) actually complain about having to zoom in.

You show me a couple and I will shut up on the matter.

I will hold off on commenting about the other issues right now, because I do not wish to argue uncertain points

Niedar
04-30-2014, 08:16 AM
Everyone I have talked to trying the game out for the first time complains about the text and ui.

jtatta
04-30-2014, 08:32 AM
I'm not going to quote any particular post but I think this response is in reply to many of them.

In a casual draft format, you can do whatever you want. If you want to have a 32-player draft broken down into pods, and then battle people from other pods, then fine. More power to you. Sure, it's still "draft" but it everyone knows that it isn't competitive and only the casuals of the casuals are really going to enjoy it. I don't enjoy drafting to the best of my abilities and then losing to a guy who got five Murder and two Life Siphon from the table across the room. I'm not going to sit here and say that it isn't still "draft" though.

The reason that asynch works in HS and SolForge is because of the way they do it. There isn't a shared pool of cards among participants, there's just cards that the game creates for you that you choose from. You typically take the best card for your deck and move on. There's no counter drafting, there's no signaling, it's just taking cards. This is basically glorified sealed in the grand scheme of things, and it works for those games because that's how they built their games. Hex could certainly do something like that but it couldn't be like draft is now, which is to say the "traditional" draft format of taking a card a passing a pack along.

Where people in this thread are getting disconnected is the point where you say "Draft" in the traditional sense and combine it with "asynch" like Hearthstone. Those two things don't pair and they never will successfully. It doesn't make sense. Maybe they can make some crazy free-for-all format where they try something like that but even as asynch it will never be as popular as regular drafting.

- John

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 09:15 AM
Everyone I have talked to trying the game out for the first time complains about the text and ui.

Are they TCG players at all? Or gamers? Because I have recruited a bunch of friends who have fairly high gaming standards but never played a TCG, and they find it perfectly fine, they always zoom in and never complain.

I actually have been surprised that there have been no complaints from people I have showed, so maybe I read a little too much into it.

GatticusFinch
04-30-2014, 09:23 AM
We are in the days of high definition and high pixel density. If I can't read the cards without zooming in on a 24 inch monitor, that's a problem.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 09:45 AM
We are in the days of high definition and high pixel density. If I can't read the cards without zooming in on a 24 inch monitor, that's a problem.

...Why, exactly? Might I point out that in real life, even people with 20/20 vision often bring cards a little closer to their faces to read. And they have to pick the whole card up if it is placed on a table or game board. Why exactly does everything have to be crystal clear on our PC monitors?

I don't see why you would need that functionality in the client before open beta anyway. Not needed until launch, or later.

Am I really being crazy about this, or are there a lot of overly spoiled gamers out there?

Yoss
04-30-2014, 09:50 AM
I don't agree with you there. I think async drafting will work very well for 90% of the population, who don't really care about signals, knowing what other people might have etc. Of course all big tournaments will use normal draft, but if they implement async draft for normal 8-man queues I think it will be far more popular than normal draft queues.

I'm not seeing how this would work without fundamentally changing what "Draft" means in the context of Hex. (And I'm one of the biggest supporters of Asynch. I litterally "wrote the book" on it. See link below.)


Or am I the only one with a full time job + wife and kids here? Does everyone else have tons of time to play whenever they want for however long they want?

You are not alone. Like I said, I'm one of the biggest supporters of making as many things as possible bite-sized. I just don't see a good way to make Draft work like that. Please share your ideas if you think you've solved the problem. Every post you've made so far has just said "it can be done" without actually showing details. Consider something like this: ( http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32002 ). Those proposals completely retain the features of the format (Constructed and Sealed), while making it asynchronous. If you do something like this for Draft, it won't be the same format any more. It could still be fun, but we'd need a new name for it.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 09:51 AM
The blurry text on cardsis a problem Xen, it's recognized as a problem by the devs even.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 09:55 AM
The blurry text on cardsis a problem Xen, it's recognized as a problem by the devs even.

I never said it wasn't. I was asking why it is seen as high priority by so many people, when it has almost zero impact on actual gameplay.

So I ask - am I plain stupid (and I will accept a consensus here) or are gamers becoming more spoiled?

Marsden
04-30-2014, 10:02 AM
We are in the days of high definition and high pixel density. If I can't read the cards without zooming in on a 24 inch monitor, that's a problem.

For once, I completely agree with you!

The lack of proper high resolution support is a definite problem.

Reifu
04-30-2014, 10:32 AM
Well Xenavire, I guess you're as stupid on that issue (high resolution cards) as I seem to be on async drafts.

I simply cannot understand what people are missing. I really honestly don't get it. People ask how it can be done and I cannot understand how anyone could think it cannot/shouldn't be done. Clearly either I am missing something very important (despite having drafted at pro tour level twice, finishing top 15 once, and playing MTG on and off for almost 20 years now) or other people really, really, really do enjoy those small aspects of drafting that I find the least enjoyable.

It's like people actually think the fun in drafting is 90% counter-picking and remembering all the cards to know what decks they might play against and 10% reading/sending signals and picking cards and building/playing the deck. While I say it's the other way around and I gladly sacrifice those 10% (of counter-picking and remembering all the cards to know what I might play against) most of the time to be able to enjoy the other 90% 2-3 times more often. Because in my world that is all you lose by doing async drafts.

I guess otherwise people here are really competitive and cannot fathom that a lot of people would be ok with only being able to use 90% (or 80% or 50% or whatever you think it is) of the normal draft strategies to win.

I am utterly lost for words, so I guess I will just stop posting on the matter. It's all off-topic in this thread anyway I guess, I didn't mean for it to become a huge discussion. It'll be up to CZE to figure out in the end anyway. Besides, with PvE implemented I might have so much fun that one draft a week is enough for me.

Hope to see you guys in-game and beat your behinds despite probably not caring the slightest what you draft. ;)

PS. Regarding click-to-zoom, when I complain about that I am mostly complaining about the card manager. Click-to-zoom is ok in the actual game, especially with lots of cards out. Not being able to browse your collection without clicking every card to see what they do is terrible design. I am generally ok with the in-game (match) UI where they seem to have put most of the effort. It is all the other UI's I find very sub-par.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 10:34 AM
No. It's not gamers being more spoiled. Readable text on the playmat is most important for new players. It's a major problem. It should be high priority to fix. Everyone will be better off games can run faster and will look better.


@Reifu, I don't think Xen is the one that is stupid about asynch drafts. There can be a much better asynch game mode that actually is designed to work asynchronously. Just porting drafts to it is lazy and removes a huge portion of the experience. Asynch sealed and constructed work perfectly, and will suffice until CZE releases it's answer to HS arenas.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 10:38 AM
2-3 people in an active forum isn't a consensus. I really dislike the high expectations and elitism that the new waves of games and gamers have spawned. And this seem to me to be a prime example.

It is like people who require MORE than 60fps, when there is almost no noticeable difference in gameplay or smoothness over 30fps.

I dunno, it irks me. I am quite satisfied with smooth 30fps and zooming in on things to read the more clearly. And I have a PC that runs all the games I play regularly at 60fps - I keep them on low graphics so as to not stress out my PC parts for no reason.

Am I that weird here?

As for click to zoom in the card manager, I swear I saw the big card preview window in there, but I would need to double check.

Kami
04-30-2014, 10:39 AM
No. It's not gamers being more spoiled. Readable text on the playmat is most important for new players. It's a major problem. It should be high priority to fix. Everyone will be better off games can run faster and will look better.


@Reifu, I don't think Xen is the one that is stupid about asynch drafts. There can be a much better asynch game mode that actually is designed to work asynchronously. Just porting drafts to it is lazy and removes a huge portion of the experience. Asynch sealed and constructed work perfectly, and will suffice until CZE releases it's answer to HS arenas.

I'm not really sure what would be the best way to fix this though. The cards scale depending on your resolution and how many cards are on the table.

Short of having an optional always on 'preview' of whatever card you hover over, I don't know if it's technically possible to fix this for everyone.

I would love the option to disable the zoom-in, zoom-out animation though to make it more snappy.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 10:40 AM
Short of having an optional always on 'preview' of whatever card you hover over, I don't know if it's technically possible to fix this for everyone.

Actually, this seems like a good idea. Would it be hard to implement? I could get behind it, and I think it would fix the problem.

I want to reiterate that I don't mind the text resolution being upgraded. I just disagree about the importance and priority it should have.

Reifu
04-30-2014, 10:44 AM
@Reifu, I don't think Xen is the one that is stupid about asynch drafts. There can be a much better asynch game mode that actually is designed to work asynchronously. Just porting drafts to it is lazy and removes a huge portion of the experience. Asynch sealed and constructed work perfectly, and will suffice until CZE releases it's answer to HS arenas.
You misunderstood me Gwaer.

"Well Xenavire, I guess you're as stupid on that issue as I seem to be on async drafts."

I refered to him on the high resolution card, and me on the async draft part. :)

Will clarify my post to avoid missunderstandings.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 10:46 AM
You misunderstood me Gwaer.

"Well Xenavire, I guess you're as stupid on that issue as I seem to be on async drafts."

I refered to him on the high resolution card, and me on the async draft part.

Well, I don't think you are stupid, I just think your idea doesn't fit into the current game framework (for the reasons I have stated.) I would be interested to see it implemented later. :)

Reifu
04-30-2014, 10:48 AM
Well, I don't think you are stupid, I just think your idea doesn't fit into the current game framework (for the reasons I have stated.) I would be interested to see it implemented later. :)

And I don't think you're stupid either, you just seem to be ok with a lot less than most other people with regards to the UI. :cool:

Bad UI design is one of my pet-peeves. Probably due to working with it.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 10:52 AM
Fair enough, I did misread that and took it as an attack on him. My apologies.

At at the very least text should be readable on cards before scaling is required. 4-5 troops. Otherwise some sort of zoom on hover feature would work, but another major problem is how quickly they're forced to scale cards. I think that's going to be fundamental design issue of the hex game version 1.0 and will need a major update to fix. I'm hoping the client will evolve and not get stuck in obsolescence like mtgo or the lol launcher.

Reifu
04-30-2014, 10:55 AM
Fair enough, I did misread that and took it as an attack on him. My apologies.

At at the very least text should be readable on cards before scaling is required. 4-5 troops. Otherwise some sort of zoom on hover feature would work, but another major problem is how quickly they're forced to scale cards. I think that's going to be fundamental design issue of the hex game version 1.0 and will need a major update to fix. I'm hoping the client will evolve and not get stuck in obsolescence like mtgo or the lol launcher.

No worries, I can see how it could easily be misread. So wanted to clarify that it was more of a tounge in cheek comment spinning off on his own question. :D

And agree with all of the rest of your comment.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 10:56 AM
At at the very least text should be readable on cards before scaling is required. 4-5 troops.

I admit, this is not an unreasonable request. I am not sure about the actual priority, but this much would be less work than what I had inferred from what others have been complaining about.

And Gwaer, leaping in to defend me? Thats mighty decent and quite unexpected. Thanks for the sentiment. :D

Yoss
04-30-2014, 10:56 AM
I simply cannot understand what people are missing. I really honestly don't get it. People ask how it can be done and I cannot understand how anyone could think it cannot/shouldn't be done. Clearly either I am missing something very important (despite having drafted at pro tour level twice, finishing top 15 once, and playing MTG on and off for almost 20 years now) or other people really, really, really do enjoy those small aspects of drafting that I find the least enjoyable.

It's like people actually think the fun in drafting is 90% counter-picking and remembering all the cards to know what decks they might play against and 10% reading/sending signals and picking cards and building/playing the deck. While I say it's the other way around and I gladly sacrifice those 10% (of counter-picking and remembering all the cards to know what I might play against) most of the time to be able to enjoy the other 90% 2-3 times more often. Because in my world that is all you lose by doing async drafts.

I guess otherwise people here are really competitive and cannot fathom that a lot of people would be ok with only being able to use 90% (or 80% or 50% or whatever you think it is) of the normal draft strategies to win.

Actually, I can fathom all the things you're talking about. What I can't see is what your implementation looks like (see bolded text above). The only thing you've said is, basically, "it's obvious". And yet, no one else seems to know what you're talking about. Please walk me through an example of what this new "semi-Draft" mode would look like. Once I know what this mode would look like, I'll be in better position to say if I like it or not.

EDIT:
Perhaps do it in a new thread rather than continue to derail this one.

Miwa
04-30-2014, 10:58 AM
I'm proposing a similar solution here. Remove the incentive for players to join events which they don't intend to play.
That removes the reason a lot of us wanted free drafts in the first place. It's 3 free packs. The reason they gave them away is because it's a marketing tool to get some percentage of people who where just going to rare draft to get hooked on the format.

If rare drafters from KS rewards make up any significant part of the draft pool after the initial period, then Hex will have failed. As others have pointed out in the pack valuation thread, the real place CZE makes money is selling tournament tickets. So all the worrying about rare drafters better be for nil, or there are bigger problems.

Noob drafters (like me) aren't going to be any more challenge than getting a bye, since we'll rare draft, and then get steamrolled by you anyway. So the only thing you get by not getting a bye is the fun of seal clubbing.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 10:58 AM
Actually, I can fathom all the things you're talking about. What I can't see is what your implementation looks like (see bolded text above). The only thing you've said is, basically, "it's obvious". And yet, no one else seems to know what you're talking about. Please walk me through an example of what this new "semi-Draft" mode would look like. Once I know what this mode would look like, I'll be in better position to say if I like it or not.

I think the idea is the asynch sealed mode, but with a drafting segment in a group before splintering off to play others playing the format.

I might be missing a few of the finer points, but that is the bulk of the idea as I understand it. Not terrible, but also not ideal. Tweaks would have to be made.

Reifu
04-30-2014, 11:11 AM
I think the idea is the asynch sealed mode, but with a drafting segment in a group before splintering off to play others playing the format.

I might be missing a few of the finer points, but that is the bulk of the idea as I understand it. Not terrible, but also not ideal. Tweaks would have to be made.

Just because Yoss seems genuinely interested.

Yep, exactly like sealed asynch would work except a normal 8-man drafting first instead of just opening 6 packs. Same principle but different (and a lot more fun imho).

TJTaylor
04-30-2014, 11:24 AM
Doesn't that defeat the purpose of what async is supposed to remedy? Not having to waste time waiting for a specific number of people to gather in order to play?

GatticusFinch
04-30-2014, 11:28 AM
That removes the reason a lot of us wanted free drafts in the first place. It's 3 free packs. The reason they gave them away is because it's a marketing tool to get some percentage of people who where just going to rare draft to get hooked on the format.

If rare drafters from KS rewards make up any significant part of the draft pool after the initial period, then Hex will have failed. As others have pointed out in the pack valuation thread, the real place CZE makes money is selling tournament tickets. So all the worrying about rare drafters better be for nil, or there are bigger problems.

Noob drafters (like me) aren't going to be any more challenge than getting a bye, since we'll rare draft, and then get steamrolled by you anyway. So the only thing you get by not getting a bye is the fun of seal clubbing.

It doesn't remove the reason. People can still go in and rare draft 3 packs if they wanted to. The intention of changing it is for people who don't want to rare draft, but would if their ticket was about to expire.

papalorax
04-30-2014, 11:38 AM
That removes the reason a lot of us wanted free drafts in the first place. It's 3 free packs. The reason they gave them away is because it's a marketing tool to get some percentage of people who where just going to rare draft to get hooked on the format.

If rare drafters from KS rewards make up any significant part of the draft pool after the initial period, then Hex will have failed. As others have pointed out in the pack valuation thread, the real place CZE makes money is selling tournament tickets. So all the worrying about rare drafters better be for nil, or there are bigger problems.

Noob drafters (like me) aren't going to be any more challenge than getting a bye, since we'll rare draft, and then get steamrolled by you anyway. So the only thing you get by not getting a bye is the fun of seal clubbing.

I think very few people will draft but not play...they may rare draft...but I still expect them to play. Even rare drafters want free packs for playing and winning. The effect of rare drafting is fairly minor anyway...generally talking about a few cards out of 45.

Yoss
04-30-2014, 12:16 PM
Just because Yoss seems genuinely interested.

Yep, exactly like sealed asynch would work except a normal 8-man drafting first instead of just opening 6 packs. Same principle but different (and a lot more fun imho).

OK, so something like this:

1. Queue up in the "semidraft" queue.
2. Wait for 8 players total.
3. Draft normally.
4. You can now take a break if you like, or continue to an untimed Deckbuilding.
5. When done with Deck, queue up for "Semidraft Quarterfinals".
6. Wait for 2 players total.
7. Play a match. If you win, proceed, otherwise you're out. (Or if Swiss, you're never out.)
8. May now take a break. When ready, queue up for "Semidraft Semifinals".
9. Wait for 2 players total.
10. Play a match. If you win, proceed, otherwise you're out. (Or if Swiss, you're never out.)
11. May now take a break. When ready, queue up for "Semidraft Finals".
12. Wait for 2 players total.
13. Play a match.
14. Collect payout.

It could work, though it is not "Draft" in the way that Hex players are used to. It would need a new name. I would probably play this over standard Draft, assuming that queue times were the same or better. I am willing to trade some of the subtlety of standard drafting for schedule flexibility. However, unlike with the other Asynch proposals, you ARE giving up something by doing it this way.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 12:18 PM
OK, so something like this:

1. Queue up in the "semidraft" queue.
2. Wait for 8 players total.
3. Draft normally.
4. You can now take a break if you like, or continue to an untimed Deckbuilding.
5. When done with Deck, queue up for "Semidraft Quarterfinals".
6. Wait for 2 players total.
7. Play a match. If you win, proceed, otherwise you're out. (Or if Swiss, you're never out.)
8. May now take a break. When ready, queue up for "Semidraft Semifinals".
9. Wait for 2 players total.
10. Play a match. If you win, proceed, otherwise you're out. (Or if Swiss, you're never out.)
11. May now take a break. When ready, queue up for "Semidraft Finals".
12. Wait for 2 players total.
13. Play a match.
14. Collect payout.

It could work, though it is not "Draft" in the way that Hex players are used to. It would need a new name. I would probably play this over standard Draft, assuming that queue times were the same or better. I am willing to trade some of the subtlety of standard drafting for schedule flexibility. However, unlike with the other Asynch proposals, you ARE giving up something by doing it this way.

I dunno, it needs to be a pun, like 'Generals Tent', to really grab players attention.

Or I may just like puns too much. :)

mach
04-30-2014, 12:26 PM
It could work, though it is not "Draft" in the way that Hex players are used to. It would need a new name. I would probably play this over standard Draft, assuming that queue times were the same or better. I am willing to trade some of the subtlety of standard drafting for schedule flexibility. However, unlike with the other Asynch proposals, you ARE giving up something by doing it this way.

I think it's still draft. I've done Magic drafts where people were split into 8-man pods and drafted, then everyone played in one big Swiss tournament. People still called it drafting. It's not something done in high-end play, but it works as a casual draft variant.

If you don't want to split queues up too much, I'd do Swiss queues this way and 8-4s the traditional way.

Yoss
04-30-2014, 12:30 PM
If you don't want to split queues up too much, I'd do Swiss queues this way and 8-4s the traditional way.

That's a great idea, actually. Presumably people playing Swiss are just learning anyway, so the loss of the finer points of interaction wouldn't mean anything to them anyway. I like it!

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 12:33 PM
Learning the finer points is kind of the point of Swiss though.

I still prefer all draft queues synched, all constructed/sealed queues asynch until player base is high enough to support synched as well, and the Hex answer to the arena as the asynch 'draft' option.

Yoss
04-30-2014, 12:46 PM
I'm nearly done drafting a new thread for this. I agree AD is not a slam dunk like AC and AS, so it would be good to discuss.

Daer
04-30-2014, 12:49 PM
I look forward to it being linked whenever someone mentions draft.

Yoss
04-30-2014, 12:50 PM
New thread is up for discussion:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=35190

Miwa
04-30-2014, 01:21 PM
*edit*

Osthall
05-01-2014, 01:23 PM
Hi, I have a support question about the extension of the once-per-week draft codes:

I had been holding out on entering my once-per-week draft code (for a year) because I was worried if drafts didn't go up my tickets would expire, but have since read on these forums that CZE had countered this by temporarily extending the validity of time-limited tickets to three weeks.

Thinking it was now safe to enter my code I did, but it has only 7 days!

I guess the fix CZE implemented was only applied to existing draft tickets - I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation, so I'm wondering if CZE has plans to offer this extension to other tickets redeemed after the first extension?

GatticusFinch
05-01-2014, 01:42 PM
Hi, I have a support question about the extension of the once-per-week draft codes:

I had been holding out on entering my once-per-week draft code (for a year) because I was worried if drafts didn't go up my tickets would expire, but have since read on these forums that CZE had countered this by temporarily extending the validity of time-limited tickets to three weeks.

Thinking it was now safe to enter my code I did, but it has only 7 days!

I guess the fix CZE implemented was only applied to existing draft tickets - I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation, so I'm wondering if CZE has plans to offer this extension to other tickets redeemed after the first extension?

They haven't said anything yet, most likely because if they did it would tacitly acknowledge that they are not going to get the drafts back up within 7 days (they said the 3 week extension was "overkill"). I'm sure if they can't get them up in time, they will extend them again rather than face some pretty significant backlash, so you probably don't need to sweat losing them forever if the servers are down still.

Xenavire
05-01-2014, 01:45 PM
They haven't said anything yet, most likely because if they did it would tacitly acknowledge that they are not going to get the drafts back up within 7 days (they said the 3 week extension was "overkill"). I'm sure if they can't get them up in time, they will extend them again rather than face some pretty significant backlash, so you probably don't need to sweat losing them forever if the servers are down still.

I am not trying to be a prick about this, but I am pleased to see a small change in attitude from you on this matter. I can see you aren't happy, but you are being far more pleasant about it - I just wish we had both been in this kind of mood a few days ago, arguments could have been completely avoided.

For what its worth, sorry if I was harsh and overly argumentative.

GatticusFinch
05-01-2014, 02:20 PM
I have no problem with the drafts being down this long, per se. Shit happens. That is not what has upset me at all.

I have a problem with the drafts being down this long (and the other showstopping bugs that still exist) after they made the decision to go live on card collections. CZE's mistake was not letting the drafts go down, it was letting the drafts go down when PvP was, for all intents and purposes, functionally released. People can claim it is beta all they want, but that is just a name label--PvP in Hex went live "for keeps" with closed beta.

These crashes could have just as easily happened in a wipeable beta, then they wouldn't be flooded with questions about missing rewards, tournament compensation, etc. I wouldn't have cared if I opened packs with duplicate cards, had pass priority error games, or any of the other issues that have come up if I knew they we were going to start fresh. CZE has said nothing about why they jumped directly from alpha to this, and all the Gameforge and store issues has really made me question the decision.

After all that, the fact that people screamed and moaned about wanting to stack free drafts and mercs and eventually got their way despite long being told it would not happen, and then having CZE come out in one paragraph and say "no roll back for anyone" while admitting pack opening was fucked up really rubs me the wrong way.

Xenavire
05-01-2014, 02:31 PM
Yeah, I absolutely understand - I myself am feeling a little ill-will right now, because I feel like I am missing out on drafting (and as such can't 'open' the boosters I am saving) which in turn is affecting my constructed decks. So I am admittedly having a lot less fun at this exact moment than I did in alpha, and it is frustrating.

But shit hit the fan, in no uncertain terms, and they recovered pretty well in all areas now, except the one that matters a lot to a huge portion of the player base. Everyone is frustrated, and that frustration is literally bleeding into every part of the player base - unneeded squabbles, complaints, begging staff for responses - I think the biggest mistake they have made thus far is moving into closed beta without hiring a new community manager first.

HexRex has been great, Shaq has been great, the twitter feed has been acceptable, and DataDragon did a great job handling the more serious cases that cropped up, but without a CM, we are constantly in the dark about more than we deserve to be at this point. It doesn't even have to be updates with information, a CM can do so much more (like the facebook 'Monday draft' posts, etc.

So tempers are high, and we are creeping towards the weekend - I will happily give CZE until Monday to have the drafts up before I claim they are doing a bad job, but the playerbase is literally stewing, twiddling thumbs, and rubbing each other the wrong way. I am actually more concerned about the backlash if they aren't up during the weekend than I am about them being down for the whole week leading up to the weekend. Something has got to give.

Anyway, doom and gloom over, I think I just hit 4999 - time to go hit 5k!

GatticusFinch
05-01-2014, 02:38 PM
The lack of CM is something I was complaining about many, many months ago back when we were all in the dark about who was getting into the alpha and when. I've simply gotten over it, not because I don't feel it is necessary, but because I don't think it is ever going to happen. We were told back then it was going to happen, if I remember correctly, and instead we got mod bots. I would have to dig through my thread history to find it. The problem is compounded by having semi-insiders like Colin dropping bits of information here and there that people pick up on.

Just a generally poor job of managing expectations and pushing out information.

Xenavire
05-01-2014, 03:22 PM
The lack of CM is something I was complaining about many, many months ago back when we were all in the dark about who was getting into the alpha and when. I've simply gotten over it, not because I don't feel it is necessary, but because I don't think it is ever going to happen. We were told back then it was going to happen, if I remember correctly, and instead we got mod bots. I would have to dig through my thread history to find it. The problem is compounded by having semi-insiders like Colin dropping bits of information here and there that people pick up on.

Just a generally poor job of managing expectations and pushing out information.

Well, we had a CM. But he left for some other project. I am not sure why there isn't a new CM yet.

I would absolutely step up for the job if it was realistic, and I would work my effing ass the whole way off to make the players understand as much as possible.

ossuary
05-01-2014, 03:59 PM
Well, we had a CM. But he left for some other project. I am not sure why there isn't a new CM yet.

Because I'm still waiting for my offer letter. :p

Xenavire
05-01-2014, 04:07 PM
Because I'm still waiting for my offer letter. :p

You know those gremlins that broke the servers? They stole your mail. Sorry man, it aint happening. :p

mach
05-01-2014, 07:45 PM
But shit hit the fan, in no uncertain terms, and they recovered pretty well in all areas now, except the one that matters a lot to a huge portion of the player base. Everyone is frustrated, and that frustration is literally bleeding into every part of the player base - unneeded squabbles, complaints, begging staff for responses - I think the biggest mistake they have made thus far is moving into closed beta without hiring a new community manager first.


I disagree. What could a CM do at this point, exactly? Their communication is good enough. People are upset about the substance, not the PR. The people they have have been plenty communicative and I'd prefer an honest explanation from Cory to a boilerplate from some random CM any day. CMs can't do things like fix drafts.

They've made one critical, huge mistake: skipping the pre-wipe beta stage. Nearly all the big problems are the consequences of that. And unsurprisingly, progress has slowed to a crawl. They've had to spend much of their resources on cleaning-up rather than moving-forward. And development is harder when you're working with production systems. They can't just throw drafts back up to collect some more data, since if they did it would cost them another round of compensation.

I think they've done a good job as a whole since then. But it was such a colossal blunder that they're still in a bad spot despite a good job since Day 2 of beta. And it was completely avoidable and unexpected. Take a look at Yoss's unofficial timeline (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32188). The community as a whole expected the missing beta phase.

If they want to restore confidence, this is what Cory needs to explain. Admit you screwed up, tell us why, tell us what you've learned from it, and tell us how you're going to move forward. Even if the solution is somewhat painful (such as backtracking on the no-wipe declaration), this is what they need to do.



So tempers are high, and we are creeping towards the weekend - I will happily give CZE until Monday to have the drafts up before I claim they are doing a bad job, but the playerbase is literally stewing, twiddling thumbs, and rubbing each other the wrong way.

So you'll be joining the Naysayers Club on Monday? I look forward to it!

Xenavire
05-01-2014, 07:50 PM
I think they way they have handled things is fine - except for the small issue of huge periods of radio silence with nothing to occupy us except fighting. I think a CM could alleviate that a lot - creating community events, updating us periodically, squatting in chat with HexRex - lots of things that could help keep tempers in check.

A CM wouldn't help directly with the issue of draft being down, but it would help indirectly to have one roaming the forums.

As for me and Monday? It's a possibility, but I meant it more as a vote of confidence. They are sounding closer this time (we get some kind of update tomorrow? That sounds a good deal more solid that 'no ETA'.) But if the whole weekend passes by with no draft, it will require some serious explaining to get back in my good books - and I am one of the major supporters, most of the time.

Remember, I said I would eat a hat on May 10th if things don't improve by then - thats a bet I don't want to lose!

mach
05-01-2014, 07:59 PM
I think they way they have handled things is fine - except for the small issue of huge periods of radio silence with nothing to occupy us except fighting. I think a CM could alleviate that a lot - creating community events, updating us periodically, squatting in chat with HexRex - lots of things that could help keep tempers in check.


If they have nothing to say, they have nothing to say. There's no point in community events if things aren't working, or periodic updates which don't contain any information. So it seems a waste of resources to me.

I suppose a CM could act as a scapegoat, so everyone would be attacking him/her instead of each other. But is that really productive?



As for me and Monday? It's a possibility, but I meant it more as a vote of confidence. They are sounding closer this time (we get some kind of update tomorrow? That sounds a good deal more solid that 'no ETA'.) But if the whole weekend passes by with no draft, it will require some serious explaining to get back in my good books - and I am one of the major supporters, most of the time.

Remember, I said I would eat a hat on May 10th if things don't improve by then - thats a bet I don't want to lose!

Okay, now I hope drafts don't come back until May 11. You're going to post a video of that, right? :)

larryhl
05-01-2014, 08:02 PM
Remember, I said I would eat a hat on May 10th if things don't improve by then - thats a bet I don't want to lose!

Is there going to be some sort of video stream for this? I'd like to watch that XD

All kidding aside, the only real reason most of us are giving CZE a hard time is because we know they're really MUCH better than this and it really is kinda unacceptable that we're even at this point.

GatticusFinch
05-01-2014, 08:30 PM
Well, there has to be update tomorrow because of kickstarter. I don't think the update is "oh, we got everything fixed." All the posts so far have been incredibly cryptic "stuff is broke, we are working on it" type of posts.

I'm starting to worry that they have mismanaged/underestimated the funds needed to finish the entire game and skipping the non-monetized beta grew out of that tog et some cash flow. The schedule is so far behind that I doubt they had planned it to go this long. That's a lot of extra months of staff and development costs with no revenue stream.

Gwaer
05-01-2014, 08:49 PM
If that's the case, more power to them. I'd rather give them more money to get the thing done, than scrap it.

Protip: it's not the case.

bojanglesz
05-01-2014, 09:49 PM
The update leaked: "We have no clue what the fuck we're doing"

Rycajo
05-01-2014, 10:43 PM
Naysayers, I have a question for you all. What do you hope to gain out of your negativity? Please tell me what you hope to accomplish with the downer attitudes.

Do you share your discontent with hopes of finding like minded individuals? For the feels? Or do you hope to establish an army to somehow force CZE to do one thing or another? I'm just having a really hard time understanding how your posts are bringing anything valuable to the community. Are you hoping you are right with all the negativity? Are you hoping to say, after the fall of Hex "see, I told you they had a problem"?

CZE knows we hate having tournaments down. They know they are behind schedule. They are trying to get things up and running.

Instead of lighting the torches and grabbing the pitchforks, please, do something productive for the community. Start an awesome thread like Xenavire or Colin did, a thread where people can talk about their passion and their hopes. Those things help build us up together and are worthy of the praise this community has received.


Back on topic, this thread was started by a CZE employee trying to reassure the players that they weren't going to lose a tournament ticket. This is valuable information, and I am grateful to CZE for being "players first" focused. Thank you Chark for letting us know you are looking out for us.

AstaSyneri
05-02-2014, 02:27 AM
Exactly. Nothing to come out of that.

Cory has stated multiple times that this game has gained a complexity he has not foreseen. Set yourself a goal to write a program that you can think to finish until Sunday Evening (even if it's only a "Hello World"). Then see whether you actually manage it. If you do, write a little game till the Sunday after.

Chances are, you are going to run into something that gives you trouble (maybe not in the first very easy, widely documented examples). Problem solving simply takes time, especially when every change you make impacts so many other systems.

They know we are all waiting for tournaments, AH, guilds, PvE. And I am very sure they are trying to get that to us as soon as possible.

mach
05-02-2014, 04:52 AM
Exactly. Nothing to come out of that.

Cory has stated multiple times that this game has gained a complexity he has not foreseen. Set yourself a goal to write a program that you can think to finish until Sunday Evening (even if it's only a "Hello World"). Then see whether you actually manage it. If you do, write a little game till the Sunday after.

Chances are, you are going to run into something that gives you trouble (maybe not in the first very easy, widely documented examples). Problem solving simply takes time, especially when every change you make impacts so many other systems.

They know we are all waiting for tournaments, AH, guilds, PvE. And I am very sure they are trying to get that to us as soon as possible.

I can't speak for everyone, but my own criticism as based on decisions they have made and could have made differently, rather than about unexpected delays or bugs.

In this case, I'm specifically criticizing their decision to skip the pre-wipe phase of the beta which the community was expecting. If they hadn't decided to do that, things would very likely be going much more smoothly. Why is it productive to criticize? So we can know if they've learned from their mistakes so they won't happen again.

caffn8d
05-02-2014, 05:39 AM
So, Chark... I redeemed my pro-player reward code on 4/30 (wasn't checking the forums, didn't know there was going to be an adjustment). Is the expiration something that I can still get amended, or will it still expire on 5/7 if drafts aren't up by then? Just curious so I can plan accordingly. :)

ossuary
05-02-2014, 06:23 AM
I'm sure they're not going to let anyone's tickets expire, though for those few people who redeemed their codes after CZE already bumped up the expiration dates of current draft tickets, I wouldn't be surprised if a support ticket was required (just because CZE might not see everyone's expiration dates). So worst case scenario as far as I can see is just that you'll have to put in a support ticket if one of your draft tickets expires, and they'll compensate you.

AstaSyneri
05-02-2014, 06:39 AM
I can't speak for everyone, but my own criticism as based on decisions they have made and could have made differently, rather than about unexpected delays or bugs.

In this case, I'm specifically criticizing their decision to skip the pre-wipe phase of the beta which the community was expecting. If they hadn't decided to do that, things would very likely be going much more smoothly. Why is it productive to criticize? So we can know if they've learned from their mistakes so they won't happen again.

There certainly is a difference between constructive criticism and "continuous bitching". And offering good alternatives certainly has its merit.

Also, yes, decisions sometimes will turn out to bad. Sometimes they may be really bad, sometimes they may only look inferior from our perspective, because we don't have all the information the decision is based on. Often it's better to make a bad decision, than not to make a decision at all.

As for your particular criticism: I agree, the ability to still have a wipe may have helped, but then a) it's very exhilarating to play with your cards and b) would there really have been as many "testers" if we still had been in Alpha? I personally wouldn't spend as much time in the system if we weren't in Closed Beta with our own cards. So your argument might just as well be null and void. We simply can't know.

In the end it doesn't matter now, does it? Now CZE needs to measure up against the challenge to bring tournaments up again (and all the other features we are really waiting for).

mach
05-02-2014, 07:04 AM
As for your particular criticism: I agree, the ability to still have a wipe may have helped, but then a) it's very exhilarating to play with your cards and b) would there really have been as many "testers" if we still had been in Alpha? I personally wouldn't spend as much time in the system if we weren't in Closed Beta with our own cards. So your argument might just as well be null and void. We simply can't know.


It would still be a Beta, just a pre-wipe Beta (like the first phase of the Hearthstone beta).

If they didn't have enough testing going on, they would have options they don't have in the current Beta. They could offer cheaper or free cards/tournaments; many people in the current beta aren't testing as much as they would like to because they have limited budgets.

If that wasn't enough, they could start sending out invites to people who would love to play but aren't in beta.

If that still wasn't enough (which I very much doubt), then that means the game itself is fatally flawed or isn't ready for beta in the first place.



In the end it doesn't matter now, does it? Now CZE needs to measure up against the challenge to bring tournaments up again (and all the other features we are really waiting for).

It's important to identify and acknowledge your mistakes so you can avoid them in the future and take proper corrective action.

Gwaer
05-02-2014, 07:18 AM
Even if that was better for the short term Mach, we have no idea if it would have been better for the game in the long run. If this gets us to open beta faster then it is a net win in my book. I expect that even if they had gone through a wipe we would still have had downtime like this after the wipe and codes went out.

So they skipped a phase, it just means they have a longer list of bugs to deal with now. There haven't been any catastrophic results that make having a wipe necessary. As long as the rest of beta is a little smoother because of this I'd rather get the major downtime out of the way early. Heck they told us to expect week of not even being able to log in to either alpha or beta servers. So this isn't much worse than that so far.

GatticusFinch
05-02-2014, 07:32 AM
If this gets us to open beta faster then it is a net win in my book.

You guys keep getting hung up on what they have termed the current state of the game. I can call a duck a horse, but that doesn't mean I can put a saddle on it and ride it to town. If they got tournaments back up and all the current bugs still existed, would you be excited if they simply named it "open beta" because now you are closer to "release?"

Gwaer
05-02-2014, 07:53 AM
I was using open beta as an actual improvement on closed beta. As in not a crappy internal release. IE. If this gets bugs fixed faster, then it is not a bad thing.

mach
05-02-2014, 07:57 AM
Even if that was better for the short term Mach, we have no idea if it would have been better for the game in the long run. If this gets us to open beta faster then it is a net win in my book. I expect that even if they had gone through a wipe we would still have had downtime like this after the wipe and codes went out.

So they skipped a phase, it just means they have a longer list of bugs to deal with now. There haven't been any catastrophic results that make having a wipe necessary. As long as the rest of beta is a little smoother because of this I'd rather get the major downtime out of the way early. Heck they told us to expect week of not even being able to log in to either alpha or beta servers. So this isn't much worse than that so far.

It's impossible to know for certain, but it's very likely that doing it the way they did will lead to a longer wait until open beta.

First, it's a lot easier to find and fix bugs when there are only a few at a time.

Second, development is harder and more time-consuming when you're dealing with production servers. You lose options (such as bringing back drafts before you've fixed them to get more data) and have to be more careful, since mistakes cost you more.

Third, they've had to spend significant resources on support and other things which don't progress the game. With a pre-wipe beta, you just have to fix the bugs. With the current beta, they have to both fix the bugs and investigate/fix any accounts which were affected by them.

dwebber88
05-02-2014, 09:36 AM
You guys keep getting hung up on what they have termed the current state of the game. I can call a duck a horse, but that doesn't mean I can put a saddle on it and ride it to town. If they got tournaments back up and all the current bugs still existed, would you be excited if they simply named it "open beta" because now you are closer to "release?"

You are so missing the point of his post.....

GatticusFinch
05-02-2014, 11:31 AM
You are so missing the point of his post.....

No, I'm not. What they label the state of the software has no impact on the number of bugs or the amount of downtime necessary. They all have to be dealt with, whether it is in alpha, pre-wipe beta, closed beta, or open beta. No one can make a credible argument that skipping pre-wipe beta makes it easier or faster to get to open beta unless they ignore the quality of the software attached to the label.

He admits that the same downtime would be necessary. He also states that pre-wipe would have been better in the short term, that no one can know if post-wipe is better in the long run, but then claims it will be better in the long run if it gets to open beta faster. It won't get to open beta faster unless they sacrifice the quality of the open beta because the amount of work is the same or more.

Gwaer
05-02-2014, 12:36 PM
Clearly what you don't understand is that I was saying if this gets the bugs cleaned up faster it's better. You're getting hung up on titles. My definition of open beta is ready for public. Which means a lot of these bugs need to be cleaned up.

I admitted that having an additional phase before the last beta wipe may have been better in the short term for individual player, but if it caused it to take longer to find the all the bugs that we found from the load of everyone trying to enter their codes, and we would have had this exact same downtime at that point then we are better off this way. We have no way to know which is better because the road not taken can't be known. It could have been rockier for longer rather than this very bad spell for shorter. The decision has been made. We'll see what comes of it, but saying it would be objectively better for the game if it was done differently is pure and complete speculation and it does no one any good.

mightygerm
05-02-2014, 12:41 PM
Just got 2 new draft tickets this week, are these planned to be extended as well?

GatticusFinch
05-02-2014, 01:04 PM
Just got 2 new draft tickets this week, are these planned to be extended as well?

No announcement has been made. If drafts still aren't up when they post the kickstarter update, then probably.

AswanJaguar
05-02-2014, 01:33 PM
When the closed beta announcement was made, people asked whether there would be a lot of changes with the patch. I suggested that it would be in CZE's best interests to keep the code changes minimal since they were moving to new hardware. While I feel that GatticusFinch and mach have been excessively negative in some of their posts, I agree with their criticism of the decision to migrate to new hardware and new code and to go live all at the same time. While there may be internal timelines that we are not privy to that necessitated skipping a wipeable beta phase, we find ourselves in a situation that no one is satisfied with.

What's done is done. CZE is still finding its way as a digital developer and it's known that they have a lot of very smart people working on the team. Ideally they will learn from this experience and we'll be able to see some forward momentum next week. Let's hope that today's update will have some concrete information and lays out what they've learned from these experiences.

Mahes
05-02-2014, 02:48 PM
I got my draft ticket yesterday with an expire date of 05/08/2014. It has not been extended as of today and we already know for a fact that tournaments are down until at least tuesday. I will wait until Monday and if nothing has changed, I will start a new post on the subject just to make sure people/draft tickets are not falling between the cracks of the system.

hex_colin
05-02-2014, 10:07 PM
I got my draft ticket yesterday with an expire date of 05/08/2014. It has not been extended as of today and we already know for a fact that tournaments are down until at least tuesday. I will wait until Monday and if nothing has changed, I will start a new post on the subject just to make sure people/draft tickets are not falling between the cracks of the system.

No reason not to expect them to extend them on Monday (Tuesday at the latest), like they did this week.

Not likely to happen earlier because they'll want to get the majority of the tickets in the same pass (i.e. taking into account staggered KS code redemption dates).

Yoss
05-03-2014, 01:16 PM
I'm rather annoyed that my spawn time is based on when I entered the code. I want my spawn time to be when I'm asleep, not when I'm playing. It is going to be annoying having to worry about which side of the line I'm on during my normal gaming hours. (I entered the code smack dab in the middle of one of my normal gaming nights.)

Arbiter
05-03-2014, 06:53 PM
I'd definitely encourage a shift to an appropriate time for the draft tickets, Yoss, although it's probably not appropriate for discussion until tourneys are resolved. It is even more of an issue for those of us down under, where times can shift up to four times a year by up to two hours (Northern and Southern Hemisphere countries entering and leaving Daylight Savings). It will get very confusing down the track...

ossuary
05-03-2014, 06:58 PM
I know it's probably a trifling detail for some people, but it really would be nice to have the option to set the time of day that our timers are on set to a specific time (maybe with a support ticket, or even an in-game option?), so we can have a little more control as to when our Lotus Gardens refresh (overnight would be better than mid-day), or when we get weekly tickets and VIP packs.

All you have to do to avoid people trying to take advantage of it is set a cooldown of 1 month or something whenever you make changes to your schedules (like your cell phone provider does when you change your 10 free calling numbers).

noragar
05-04-2014, 10:37 PM
I'm not sure why it's an issue to receive your rewards in the middle of your gaming session. If you want to use it right away, you're in the middle of a session and can use it right then. If you want to wait until the last minute (not that I'd recommend this), you're in the middle of a gaming session and can use it then. If you want to use it anytime in between, then the exact time it was spawned makes no difference.

A passive reward like the Lotus Garden, I'd especially prefer to have spawned in the middle of my session as opposed to after my session. Then if something unexpected comes up and I'm not able to log in the next day, I've already received my lotus instead of missing out on it.

I was expecting that all the rewards would be spawned at the same time for simplicity on CZE's end. i'm no programmer, but I would have thought it would take fewer resources to run a procedure to give out the rewards once a day/week/month instead of having it constantly running all the time. But if that is the way they opt to do it, I don't think it's any worse for the players, and might even be better.

AstaSyneri
05-05-2014, 12:45 AM
When the closed beta announcement was made, people asked whether there would be a lot of changes with the patch. I suggested that it would be in CZE's best interests to keep the code changes minimal since they were moving to new hardware. While I feel that GatticusFinch and mach have been excessively negative in some of their posts, I agree with their criticism of the decision to migrate to new hardware and new code and to go live all at the same time. While there may be internal timelines that we are not privy to that necessitated skipping a wipeable beta phase, we find ourselves in a situation that no one is satisfied with.

What's done is done. CZE is still finding its way as a digital developer and it's known that they have a lot of very smart people working on the team. Ideally they will learn from this experience and we'll be able to see some forward momentum next week. Let's hope that today's update will have some concrete information and lays out what they've learned from these experiences.

This squared. From what we can see from the outside, the developers have been in the office pretty much all week-end, trying to squash the bugs. That middleware problem sucked - those are things you don't reckon with.

While we are so focused on the tournaments (yes, i want to earn Gold, too), they might suprise us with releasing the next big thing sooner than we thought. Just give it some patience.

Mahes
05-05-2014, 05:53 AM
I do hope we see a content patch this week, even if the tournament servers are down. Would be nice to have something new to talk about.

Xenavire
05-05-2014, 06:26 AM
I do hope we see a content patch this week, even if the tournament servers are down. Would be nice to have something new to talk about.

Agreed. I think it is inevitable though, because they have talked about a number of fixes to common issues the past week. Only makes sense that they would push it out this week, tournaments or not.

Yoss
05-05-2014, 08:38 AM
I'm not sure why it's an issue to receive your rewards in the middle of your gaming session. If you want to use it right away, you're in the middle of a session and can use it right then. If you want to wait until the last minute (not that I'd recommend this), you're in the middle of a gaming session and can use it then. If you want to use it anytime in between, then the exact time it was spawned makes no difference.

We're talking draft tickets here, which require a 4 hour time commitment to use. If I'm mid-way through my gaming for the night, I am in no position to sit down for a 4-hour tournament. More importantly, if that night is the one I plan to draft on most often, I do not want to be using my weekly ticket a mere hour or two before it expires each week. That kind of procrastination is just begging for trouble. No, if I get a choice of spawn, I want it to spawn the morning of the day where I will most likely play it. That way if I miss my normal time for some reason I still have 5 or 6 days to make it up rather than being forced to just rare-draft it and drop, or missing it completely.

ossuary
05-05-2014, 09:09 AM
Exactly. It would be good customer service (or "fan first" as CZE likes to say) to let us define the time that works best for us to get our daily, weekly, or monthly stipends, based on the schedule that is most convenient for us. As long as there is a process in place to prevent anyone from abusing that ability (like my suggestion of a cooldown time on making changes to the schedule), it will have zero downside and all upside - most notably our convenience, and a good quality customer experience that people will remember and pass on the word about.

GatticusFinch
05-05-2014, 01:14 PM
Is the reset time currently tied to when you put the KS code in? If that is the case, some notice would have been nice. We need either an individual defined time or a set time for everyone.

There is a new post up saying they extended tickets again. That is all it says and the thread is locked. Does anyone know how long they extended them for?

Xenavire
05-05-2014, 01:21 PM
Is the reset time currently tied to when you put the KS code in? If that is the case, some notice would have been nice. We need either an individual defined time or a set time for everyone.

There is a new post up saying they extended tickets again. That is all it says and the thread is locked. Does anyone know how long they extended them for?

I am fairly sure they just extended the time of newly created tickets to match up with the older tickets, rather than adding to the 3 weeks extra they already had.

Svenn
05-05-2014, 01:22 PM
There is a new post up saying they extended tickets again. That is all it says and the thread is locked. Does anyone know how long they extended them for?

It says they don't expire now. I'm not sure if that's these first couple tickets, all tickets forever, or what? Would be nice to get some clarification. Will my free draft a week for life stick around if I miss a week now so I could stack them?

EDIT: Hmm, I think I misread. I saw "so that they don't expire for you" and just thought that meant they don't expire at all now. Makes more sense when I read the full sentence "We went ahead and extended tournament draft tickets so that they don't expire for you." where they say "extended".

Poetic
05-05-2014, 01:24 PM
I doubt they'd want them to be forever, people would hoard them for future sets.

TJTaylor
05-05-2014, 01:28 PM
First ticket was extended to 5/29, second was extended to 6/12.

GatticusFinch
05-05-2014, 01:31 PM
First ticket was extended to 5/29, second was extended to 6/12.

That's 5.5 weeks from today. They said not to read anything into the last extension of three weeks, but this one is disconcerting.

dogmod
05-05-2014, 01:33 PM
That's 5.5 weeks from today. They said not to read anything into the last extension of three weeks, but this one is disconcerting.

Gift horse meet mouth... they are in process testing after middleware update I have hopes for later today :)

Chance
05-05-2014, 01:36 PM
I hope to god it is i really really want to draft tonight :(

Svenn
05-05-2014, 01:46 PM
That's 5.5 weeks from today. They said not to read anything into the last extension of three weeks, but this one is disconcerting.
Wouldn't look too much into it... they should be coming very soon.



HexTCG ‏@HexTCG 1h
Hardware configuration is complete, and we'll be testing tournaments now.

Mayu Polo Wieja ‏@supermayu80 49m
@HexTCG Good luck! Any chance drafts will be up today? :)

HexTCG ‏@HexTCG 46m
@supermayu80 too early to speak, but we're looking at sooner than later

GatticusFinch
05-05-2014, 02:01 PM
Gift horse meet mouth... they are in process testing after middleware update I have hopes for later today :)

Except I paid $250 for that "gift" and everyone would be outraged if they were not extended.

dogmod
05-05-2014, 02:06 PM
The fact that they extended it as long as they did as opposed to just extending it a week appears to me to be a gift in light of the fact that they seem to expect to have the drafts working today or tomorrow. I am saying that you are looking at the extension as a worrying sign when I feel that it is a gift/apology for the delay.

Diazepam

Yoss
05-05-2014, 02:08 PM
Has anyone tried putting in a support ticket to alter the spawn time for weekly drafts?

Poetic
05-05-2014, 02:12 PM
Hope they don't rush the tournaments back to please people. Having to take them down again would be more damaging that waiting another day or two.

This coming from someone that only wants to draft...

Chiany
05-05-2014, 07:51 PM
Except I paid $250 for that "gift" and everyone would be outraged if they were not extended.

Let me explain this one more time, so listen up.

You didn't pay $250 to get a free draft for life, you paid it because you support Hex.
Every "reward" is a bonus, not a object or service you purchased.

But if you have been around this game, and this forum for some time now, you would know that CZE would never do, or let anything happen that would upset a major part of the community.

Jugan
05-05-2014, 08:06 PM
Let me explain this one more time, so listen up.

CZE would never do, or let anything happen that would upset a major part of the community.

Sounds like a bad business model. The masses aren't always right.

Bells
05-05-2014, 09:12 PM
if that is a business model it is one we all agreed to... Kickstarter is not investment, is not pre-order... it's donation. People have a hard time accepting that, but it just the flat out truth. as soon as you donate, that money is GONE , and we all did.

GatticusFinch
05-05-2014, 09:27 PM
Let me explain this one more time, so listen up.

You didn't pay $250 to get a free draft for life, you paid it because you support Hex.
Every "reward" is a bonus, not a object or service you purchased.

But if you have been around this game, and this forum for some time now, you would know that CZE would never do, or let anything happen that would upset a major part of the community.

Oh, is that so? http://www.polygon.com/2014/5/2/5675834/washington-sues-card-game-developer-for-failing-to-deliver-on
Apparently CZE could have just taken the $2.3 million and ran, because I didn't exchange money for a good or a service, it was just a charity case with no expectation of anything?

Every reward was offered in consideration for each pledge tier. We call that a contract. Offer, acceptance, and consideration.

Let me explain this one more time, so listen up. People are entitled to the rewards they paid for. CZE isn't extending tournament tickets out of the goodness of their fucking hearts. They are doing it because their customers would otherwise be getting screwed out of what they are due and they are on thin ice as it is. There have bee enough problems with this kickstarter that I am done listening to fanboys tell me how grateful I should be every time some fuck up happens.

Chiany
05-05-2014, 09:33 PM
Oh, is that so? http://www.polygon.com/2014/5/2/5675834/washington-sues-card-game-developer-for-failing-to-deliver-on
Apparently CZE could have just taken the $2.3 million and ran, because I didn't exchange money for a good or a service, it was just a charity case with no expectation of anything?

Every reward was offered in consideration for each pledge tier. We call that a contract. Offer, acceptance, and consideration.

Let me explain this one more time, so listen up. People are entitled to the rewards they paid for. CZE isn't extending tournament tickets out of the goodness of their fucking hearts. They are doing it because their customers would otherwise be getting screwed out of what they are due and they are on thin ice as it is. There have bee enough problems with this kickstarter that I am done listening to fanboys tell me how grateful I should be every time some fuck up happens.

If you are done listening, why post here if you don't want to discuss it rationally?
go and sew CZE, I wish you good luck with that law suit ;)

Gwaer
05-05-2014, 09:34 PM
I really wish people would stop saying KS is a donation platform. They usually have a donation option at 1-5 dollars, or you can gift any amount of money you want and select you don't want a reward. But you are pre-purchasing whatever you pay for when you select a tier. ^I was going to link the same article Gatticus just did to make my point as well.

Aradon
05-05-2014, 09:37 PM
I don't agree with Gatticus frequently, but he is certainly right here. We aren't getting our kick starter rewards as favors from CZE, they are obligated to provide them. Money was exchanged with the understanding that certain values would entail certain rewards. The only diffence between this and a preorder is that there is an acknowledged possibility that the project may fall through and thus the rewards can't be delivered.

bojanglesz
05-05-2014, 09:44 PM
If you are done listening, why post here if you don't want to discuss it rationally?
go and sew CZE, I wish you good luck with that law suit ;)

Gatticus doesn't have enough cloth to sew CZE

Bells
05-05-2014, 11:00 PM
We aren't getting our kick starter rewards as favors from CZE, they are obligated to provide them.


Every reward was offered in consideration for each pledge tier. We call that a contract. Offer, acceptance, and consideration.


But you are pre-purchasing whatever you pay for when you select a tier.

The three of you are wrong. That's not what kickstarter is. doesn't matter what you think it should be or how you feel it should work... go read the kickstarter rules that you AGREED TO when you created an account there...

This is not about shitting on you guys, is that people need to UNDERSTAND THIS. You are DONATING to kickstarter. you are not an invester, you are not making a preorder. that is so people will CONSIDER CAREFULLY when putting their money in a kickstarter project... surely you can pursuit legal rights if you think those were violated, but don't go thinking you can simply ignore the rules you agreed to when you joined kickstarter and that one particular case refers to the norm. There has been case of failed kickstarters and many other projects where people have been screwed over by that mentality and got NOTHING in return.

You have to understand the system you are agreeing to before you go around claiming what you are ''owed''

Gwaer
05-05-2014, 11:06 PM
https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use

From their rules



Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.


That's not a donation, that's a pre-order. No matter how many times you claim otherwise.

dogmod
05-06-2014, 01:33 AM
Someone suing someone else over something isn't proof that you are right. And all the delivery dates are estimates. If you want to sue because CZE is not delivering ON TIME then go for it... you have no grounds to say they are not delivering or making a good faith effort to deliver the service promised.

So sure you entered a contract for a service. And that service has not been delivered at its estimated delivery date. But if you note the kickstarter language does not state that the service has to be delivered at the estimated time. And it provides recourse in that you can request a refund from the developer. Have you done that? It doesn't say "Go be a whiny butthole on a fan forum and then call everyone fanboys when they defend the game that they are all discussing on aforementioned fan forum"

If you want something tomorrow use amazon prime.

Also you are such an easy target for trolls. Take some diazepam.

hex_colin
05-06-2014, 03:43 AM
Someone suing someone else over something isn't proof that you are right. And all the delivery dates are estimates. If you want to sue because CZE is not delivering ON TIME then go for it... you have no grounds to say they are not delivering or making a good faith effort to deliver the service promised.

So sure you entered a contract for a service. And that service has not been delivered at its estimated delivery date. But if you note the kickstarter language does not state that the service has to be delivered at the estimated time. And it provides recourse in that you can request a refund from the developer. Have you done that? It doesn't say "Go be a whiny butthole on a fan forum and then call everyone fanboys when they defend the game that they are all discussing on aforementioned fan forum"

If you want something tomorrow use amazon prime.

Also you are such an easy target for trolls. Take some diazepam.

Also, CZE offered KS refunds for a long time after it was clear they'd missed any estimated dates from the KS. So, anyone trying to get a refund now based on the fact that they'd missed the estimated date is pretty much SOL.

Gwaer
05-06-2014, 04:04 AM
I don't think anyone has grounds to sue CZE. Heck another of KS terms is that delivery dates on projects are not binding, but are only estimates for when a project creator hopes to deliver.

It just irks me when people misrepresent anything, like how any project you back on KS is allowed just walk with the cash. All I'm saying is it isn't a donation, and is much more like a pre-order. When you pre-order something you're not entitled to the game right when the estimated delivery date shows up. Games miss their delivery dates all the time, sometimes by decades. CZE is doing pretty well when measured next to duke nukem forever for instance.

In summary:
Cze will get everyone the things they promised, I have no doubt. Kickstarter is not a donation when you back for a tier you are pre-purchasing that tier. Kickstarter delivery dates are non binding.

noragar
05-06-2014, 06:52 AM
https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use

From their rules



Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backerís request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.


That's not a donation, that's a pre-order. No matter how many times you claim otherwise.

If Kickstarter does not offer refunds and the project creator spends all the kickstarter money and/or leaves the country/dies/disappears/refuses to refund, then where does the refund money come from?

Just because there's a rule that says project creator is required to fulfill the reward or issue a refund, that doesn't mean that you'll ever see either of them. What mechanism is in place to force the project creator to follow that rule?

I'm not worried at all about CZE following through, but there are thousands of other Kickstarter projects out there that I'd have significantly less faith in.

Gwaer
05-06-2014, 08:18 AM
At that point the project creator has broken a contract. And the link earlier is applicable, IE handle it in the courts. But as you said. It's not a danger from CZE.

Jugan
05-06-2014, 08:39 AM
The term "donation" is a legal term. The term "donation" allows these companies to maneuver around a lot of incredibly cumbersome law. In short, it makes them money. It's just silly how people are arguing semantics here instead of accepting it for what it really is.

Gwaer
05-06-2014, 08:57 AM
The term donation also doesn't appear in any of the agreements you make when using kickstarter. Their button even says 'back this project' not donate. Nowhere are you donating. It's just some kind of weird meme-virus that people think kickstarter is a donation platform.

https://www.kickstarter.com/help/search?term=tax

pledges aren't tax deductible, not donations again. They keep their wording specific, and do not at any point conflate it with a donation like so many people on this forum like to do.


i realize this is off topic at this point. But I have debunked this KS=Donation thing so many times and it always seems like the same people spreading this nonsense.

Its irrelevant to our situation with CZE, they are doing things well within the rules of kickstarter. But if you get screwed on a different project you backed on KS, there is legal recourse you can take.

mach
05-06-2014, 09:09 AM
Its irrelevant to our situation with CZE, they are doing things well within the rules of kickstarter. But if you get screwed on a different project you backed on KS, there is legal recourse you can take.

Has there been any legal precedent set yet? Until that happens I don't think anyone really knows how KS pledges will be treated legally.

Gwaer
05-06-2014, 09:13 AM
There is currently a legal case involving a kickstarter project in the courts you can keep your eyes on, gatticus linked it earlier. However, the KS tos is pretty clear on the matter, likely it will settle rather than make a legal precedent, since the project creator is clearly in the wrong.

mach
05-06-2014, 09:16 AM
There is currently a legal case involving a kickstarter project in the courts you can keep your eyes on, gatticus linked it earlier. However, the KS tos is pretty clear on the matter, likely it will settle rather than make a legal precedent, since the project creator is clearly in the wrong.

The ToS is clear, but the court gets to decide whether it cares or not. ;)

Jugan
05-06-2014, 09:26 AM
The ToS is clear, but the court gets to decide whether it cares or not. ;)

And the court mandates that tournaments come up today so I can start my 24 hour draft marathon! :)

Gorgol
05-06-2014, 09:34 AM
And the court mandates that tournaments come up today so I can start my 24 hour draft marathon! :)

I can see it now, local man dies after marathoning drafts in the new up and coming MMOTCG called Hex.

Jugan
05-06-2014, 09:37 AM
I can see it now, local man dies after marathoning drafts in the new up and coming MMOTCG called Hex.

They say any publicity is good publicity!

Vorpal
05-06-2014, 09:57 AM
That's 5.5 weeks from today. They said not to read anything into the last extension of three weeks, but this one is disconcerting.

Haha, what? "They said not to read anything into the length of the extension, but I'm going to anyway! /fakeconcern"

GatticusFinch
05-06-2014, 10:39 AM
Haha, what? "They said not to read anything into the length of the extension, but I'm going to anyway! /fakeconcern"

They said not to read anything into when they extended them for 3 weeks last time, as if they were expecting them to get back up soon. That did not happen, and it would have been more accurate to read something into them.

Do you just believe everything they say? Hey, this game only needs "polish" and will be full launch in November of 2013!

Mahes
05-06-2014, 10:52 AM
I seriously hope the tournaments come online today or they actually explain why they are not coming back up. The boards are getting repetitive with nothing to talk about that involves the game, besides complaining about it. This is what happens when no patch comes out.

P.S. I will use a quote from the Evil Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer: "Bored Now"

Svenn
05-06-2014, 10:55 AM
They said not to read anything into when they extended them for 3 weeks last time, as if they were expecting them to get back up soon. That did not happen, and it would have been more accurate to read something into them.

Do you just believe everything they say? Hey, this game only needs "polish" and will be full launch in November of 2013!
You mean when they extended them for 3 weeks LAST WEEK? And then a new ticket was generated this week so they extended them for the exact same amount of time again. They are being overly cautious with them and giving people extra time.

They already told us what the issue was (not even Hex code, but a middleware issue) and they've already started working on a plan to fix it (they replaced the hardware) and are in the process of testing it to see if it's good to go.