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View Full Version : Will PVE cards be more valuable then PVP cards?



Blazexdragon
04-30-2014, 06:22 AM
Wondering will we see PVE cards become more valuable then PVP cards because what I have noticed in other MMOs the rarest items gained from those MMO can sell for 500 bucks+ because only 1% of the population owns them.

Whats your take on this?

Poetic
04-30-2014, 06:29 AM
Doubt it.

hexnaes
04-30-2014, 06:33 AM
Very possible.

Consider that the equipment might even be extremely valuable too if the drop rates are rare.

meetthefuture
04-30-2014, 06:42 AM
There probably will be some legendary drop to overcost PVP cards, I guess - just because getting it will be too grindy. And even though there will be a lot of those weird grind-addicted (aka pve-oriented) players - the superrare drop will probably be in a high demand.

Lawlschool
04-30-2014, 06:54 AM
Cory's mentioned in a few interviews that he thinks PvE legendaries and legendary equipment are going to be the "chaseist" items in game. I wouldn't be surprised if a number of PvE cards / equips end up being worth more than most PvP cards. Raid drops will probably be fairly valuable, given the supposed difficulty of raids.

Eierdotter
04-30-2014, 07:10 AM
this depends 100% on how CZE wants it to be.
If Cory says they will be worth a lot i assume the droprate and difficulty are at a level that you can not grind them super easy.
You probably need certein PVE cards and equippment to be able to farm the loot. This takes time/practice/knowledge.

I would appreciate it, if chase PVE cards are valued higher than PVP cards.

Poetic
04-30-2014, 07:11 AM
Will pve cards be sold for platinum or gold only?

Eierdotter
04-30-2014, 07:12 AM
Will pve cards be sold for platinum or gold only?

however someone sells them on the AH
selling PVE cards for plat is the only way to play HEX as a F2P game (without P2W).

Krond
04-30-2014, 07:13 AM
I think the best and rarest PVE cards/equipment will definitely be worth a lot. When pvp sets are released, thousands of players star opening packs for fun/draft/sealed; they become readily available, and $ is the only obstacle. PVE stuff needs to be grinder out, and requires time. There will certainly be people willing to spend their money to save hundreds of hours of grinding. It's a lot easier to do an extra hour of overtime and get, say 25$, and spend it on a card than to grind that dungeon for 50 hours.

Poetic
04-30-2014, 07:19 AM
Guess it'll depend if pve catches on with the community.

YourOpponent
04-30-2014, 07:23 AM
Only certain ones I would guess that have a hard to make recipe...and hard to get recipe.

Kami
04-30-2014, 07:44 AM
Guess it'll depend if pve catches on with the community.

If it's anything remotely like an evolved version of Shandalar, I'm sure it will.

blakegrandon
04-30-2014, 07:52 AM
If it's anything remotely like an evolved version of Shandalar, I'm sure it will.

It doesn't even need to be an evolved version of Shandalar... That game was addicting, if only Hex could capture the magic that was that game.

My only worry about PVE being chase cards is if it pretty much forces you to use the auction house if you actually want to see any progress.

For an example of an AH/chase economy done terribly look no further than D3, where in order to progress pre-loot.20 you pretty much had to use the RMAH. The odds of getting any gear upgrades were so impossibly slim through farming that using the RMAH was cheaper(by saving time) than spending hundreds of hours farming.

Of course, D3 now is a much different game(for the better) in that they increased drop rates and got rid of the AH, it will be interesting to see if Cryptozoic can avoid the pitfalls of an AH based economy while still allowing for people to buy/sell.

Millions of players all selling at once=depressed values for everyone OR runaway inflation, the only ones that would make out in that type of situation are asian "gold" farmers that use cheap labor to offset the depressed values.

It's way too early to tell but if my packs were any indication a lot of the PVP cards will be absolutely worthless, I'm seeing 20-30 of certain cards and since no individual needs more than 4 it will create a huge glut.

PVE could be the same way depending on drop rates.

mudkip
04-30-2014, 08:11 AM
Supply Vs. Demand: we can only guess both.

I'm guessing that supply will be low for best cards/gear and that demand will be high from the interest in PvE.

Launch PvE vs Set 1 PvP, I'm guessing that there will be some (relatively) very valuable PvE stuff.

Lawlschool
04-30-2014, 08:40 AM
My only worry about PVE being chase cards is if it pretty much forces you to use the auction house if you actually want to see any progress.

For an example of an AH/chase economy done terribly look no further than D3, where in order to progress pre-loot.20 you pretty much had to use the RMAH. The odds of getting any gear upgrades were so impossibly slim through farming that using the RMAH was cheaper(by saving time) than spending hundreds of hours farming.

...

PVE could be the same way depending on drop rates.

Not necessarily. I think they want PvE to mimic MMOs, where there's an actual sense of progression. One problem with pre-2.0 D3 was that getting better gear was the entirety of the game, and it was easier to get better gear by buying it than by grinding it, which made grinding pretty much pointless. Compare this to an MMO, where progression is the main point, and gear just helps you get there. WoW's the only MMO I have any significant experience with, and you couldn't quite buy your way through progression. You could buy good enough gear off the AH to get you through end-game dungeons and hold your own in intro raids (though it was pretty expensive), but progression through raids actually required you to raid. I guess this was in large part due to the difference between BoP (non-tradeable) and BoE (tradeable) gear, so it'd be interesting to see if Hex PvE follows that model.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about Hex making the same mistakes as D3. Given that everyone knows what a clusterfuck that was, I'm pretty sure CZE learned from their mistakes and won't mimic that system. Cory's even made some thinly-veiled digs again D3 in his DragonCon interview, IIRC.

jgsugden
04-30-2014, 08:54 AM
It all depends upon how successful the PvE ends up being. Some people see potential - while others think it is a distraction that will fade to nothingness in 2 years leaving the PvP as the only remaining element of Hex. All you can do is evaluate the informationwe have on Hex, ask yourself whether it will be popular or not, and make your won educated guess.

blakegrandon
04-30-2014, 09:04 AM
Anyway, I wouldn't worry about Hex making the same mistakes as D3. Given that everyone knows what a clusterfuck that was, I'm pretty sure CZE learned from their mistakes and won't mimic that system. Cory's even made some thinly-veiled digs again D3 in his DragonCon interview, IIRC.

The biggest mistake a company can make is thinking it's learned from past companies, history has a tendency to repeat itself especially in the game industry.

We'll see if Hex can get the balance right, the problem with gaming economies is that they're extremely volatile, throw in one outside element and it can alter everything. Everything from botting to "gold" farmers in China can influence the marketplace regardless of every precaution taken by Hex.

The biggest mistake Cryptozoic can make is to assume they'll be able to prevent botters/farmers/hackers, I wish them the best of luck but virtually every company in the gaming industry has made the same assumptions and ultimately it's really hard to prevent them. A room full of kids in China will always have the competitive edge when it comes to farming stuff to sell on the AH.

Kilo24
04-30-2014, 12:47 PM
It's way too early to tell but if my packs were any indication a lot of the PVP cards will be absolutely worthless, I'm seeing 20-30 of certain cards and since no individual needs more than 4 it will create a huge glut.

PVE could be the same way depending on drop rates.

Keep in mind that you can trade cards for crafting materials. If the materials gained for doing so aren't completely worthless, then that does become a lower bound on the value of eligible cards.

Rapkannibale
04-30-2014, 01:23 PM
I think if the rewards from the Wheel of Fate and upgrading chests is really worth it, PvE cards and equipment could become really expensive as PvP players will want to have good PvE decks to grind gold. Of course they could also just sell PvP cards for gold. It will be really interesting to see how it develops.

AswanJaguar
04-30-2014, 01:46 PM
My prediction for PvE money items: Whichever legendary piece of equipment and/or card that enables players to farm the most lucrative dungeon/raid in the game will fetch the highest price on the AH. These will sell for more than the biggest money rare in Set 1 due to the fact they will be in MUCH shorter supply given the flood of Set 1 packs that will be on the market.

nicosharp
04-30-2014, 01:51 PM
I think the Black Lotus Garden will be worth more than any one PvP card. So in that sense PvE > PvP

shocker455
04-30-2014, 02:00 PM
PvE stuff will only be heavily chased if PvE is very challenging to the point were having legendary stuff greatly increases your odds of winning. I have my doubts about them making it hard for the highly skilled players, because they need to make it easy for everyone to enjoy.

If amazing equipment that effects the deck, and not specific cards comes out, i could see that being heavily chased. Because in hard/highlander mode you can only have 1 of each card, card specific equipment starts to lose its importance.

Kami
04-30-2014, 02:05 PM
If amazing equipment that effects the deck, and not specific cards comes out, i could see that being heavily chased. Because in hard/highlander mode you can only have 1 of each card, card specific equipment starts to lose its importance.

I vaguely recall it being mentioned that somewhere down the line, they may have equipment that are more than card specific. No details yet though.

AswanJaguar
04-30-2014, 02:10 PM
PvE stuff will only be heavily chased if PvE is very challenging to the point were having legendary stuff greatly increases your odds of winning. I have my doubts about them making it hard for the highly skilled players, because they need to make it easy for everyone to enjoy.


Dungeons look like they'll range from easy to somewhat difficult. The raids are where the big risks and rewards will be and there's no need to cater to casuals there since the dungeons are always available. If they want to have a go at a raid, they'd better be prepared.

Turtlewing
04-30-2014, 02:11 PM
I think it's almost guaranteed that (rarer) PvE stuff will out-value PvP stuff just because you can't buy PvE stuff directly, you have to either grind for it or pay someone else to grind for it (by buying in the AH). whereas PvP cards can be bought it packs.

That should mean more limited supply of PvE items in general as there's no way to bypass the time investment.

Kami
04-30-2014, 02:14 PM
I think it's almost guaranteed that (rarer) PvE stuff will out-value PvP stuff just because you can't buy PvE stuff directly, you have to either grind for it or pay someone else to grind for it (by buying in the AH). whereas PvP cards can be bought it packs.

That should mean more limited supply of PvE items in general as there's no way to bypass the time investment.

On the flip-side of that though, there will also be more PvE players than PvP due to cost. PvE is inherently free whereas PvP is not.

blakegrandon
04-30-2014, 02:19 PM
I think it's almost guaranteed that (rarer) PvE stuff will out-value PvP stuff just because you can't buy PvE stuff directly, you have to either grind for it or pay someone else to grind for it (by buying in the AH). whereas PvP cards can be bought it packs.

That should mean more limited supply of PvE items in general as there's no way to bypass the time investment.

Like I said earlier, kids in China will make a lot more farming stuff in Hex than they would make working in a factory...

There are really two outcomes to the Auction House:

Prices=low due to a glut of product and a lack of demand
Prices=high due to demand, forcing people to either farm a long time or whip out the credit cards.

Either way the average player most likely won't profit compared to the "gold farmers" manipulating the auction house.

Average player MIGHT find a chase rare and be able to sell it, but that's going to be far and few between compared to the Chinese or even Indian sweat shops full of people grinding them out.

Kami
04-30-2014, 02:22 PM
On a side-note, why does the majority assume that gold farmers are Chinese (let alone asian)? There's a huge chunk of gold farmers that are based in North America - usually by high level players or exploiters that just don't care anymore and are trying to cash out as frequently as possible.

blakegrandon
04-30-2014, 02:29 PM
On a side-note, why does the majority assume that gold farmers are Chinese (let alone asian)? There's a huge chunk of gold farmers that are based in North America - usually by high level players or exploiters that just don't care anymore and are trying to cash out as frequently as possible.

Mainly because a lot of Chinese became gold farmers due to how lucrative it is. Cost of living differences and the sheer population of places like China means that the cost to do business is a lot lower over there even if they have to use VPN's or proxies to get onto US servers.

Yes North Americans and Europeans are just as capable of gold farming, it's just always going to scale easier when your labor costs pennies compared to the rest of the world.

It's like manufacturing, a lot of it is done in the USA still but a LOT of it is in China/India because of the costs of labor.

I just don't think the value is going to be what people think it's going to be... Every game has the hopefuls that think they're going to get rich via the AH and it just doesn't happen.

AswanJaguar
04-30-2014, 02:36 PM
Walled gardens prevent gold farming from affecting anyone outside of their own region. CZE has also stated that they will be looking for people exploiting their systems. I'm not overly concerned ATM.

MatWith1T
04-30-2014, 02:36 PM
On a side-note, why does the majority assume that gold farmers are Chinese (let alone asian)? There's a huge chunk of gold farmers that are based in North America - usually by high level players or exploiters that just don't care anymore and are trying to cash out as frequently as possible.

Because whatever the actual proportion is of Chinese farmers to the total farming population, the Asian farmers tend to be more brazen/shameless in their marketing and more memorable because of the often fractured English they advertise with. We've all been mentally conditioned to ignore banner ads, but we can't help but notice in-game message spam. You could see hundreds of gold service ads on Diablo/WoW/Etc fansites and not recall it as quickly as you do 1 spam from CZEGoldBot148 saying "CHEAP PLAT 4 SELL $1!! www.suspiciouswebsite.ch.eu.in.com/virus/electricboogaloo.php"

Turtlewing
04-30-2014, 02:37 PM
On the flip-side of that though, there will also be more PvE players than PvP due to cost. PvE is inherently free whereas PvP is not.

PvE isn't "inherently free". It is possible to play PvE for free, but since PvP cards are legal in PvE, and packs come with chests that can contain mercs and gear for PvE, it's likely that a lot of those PvE players are also buying packs.

Also it comes down to this:

If you are trying to get a particular PvP card, you can open packs until you get it ($2, and a few seconds of UI manipulation each). If you're trying to get a PvE card you may need to beat a particular raid over and over until you get it (finding 2 other people, coordinating decks that work not only in that raid environment, but with each other, attempting the raid, splitting the loot, etc.)

The latter is much more investment.

halfwing
04-30-2014, 02:38 PM
I think cards won't be worth a lot and powerful equipment might be a couple of bucks.

Where the really money is, is in Legendary Sets, like the Overcharge set. Getting just ONE of those pieces of gear will probably be a task, getting the full set would be a huge challenge.

If they let you 'bundle' items on the AH, gearsets would sell for an amazing amount of platinum, I think.

Turtlewing
04-30-2014, 02:41 PM
I think cards won't be worth a lot and powerful equipment might be a couple of bucks.

Where the really money is, is in Legendary Sets, like the Overcharge set. Getting just ONE of those pieces of gear will probably be a task, getting the full set would be a huge challenge.

If they let you 'bundle' items on the AH, gearsets would sell for an amazing amount of platinum, I think.

The set can't sell for much more than the sum of its parts (otherwise everyone will buy the cheap parts and sell them as the set for a profit)

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 02:41 PM
I think cards won't be worth a lot and powerful equipment might be a couple of bucks.

Where the really money is, is in Legendary Sets, like the Overcharge set. Getting just ONE of those pieces of gear will probably be a task, getting the full set would be a huge challenge.

If they let you 'bundle' items on the AH, gearsets would sell for an amazing amount of platinum, I think.

This just reminded me of something... Did anyone mention the AA crafting recipes? Because anyone with those will likely be able to 'print money' for a while.

blakegrandon
04-30-2014, 02:48 PM
Walled gardens prevent gold farming from affecting anyone outside of their own region. CZE has also stated that they will be looking for people exploiting their systems. I'm not overly concerned ATM.

Walled gardens don't really mean anything... It's easy to get around region locks.

As to looking for people exploiting their systems, every company says they will be looking for people exploiting their systems.

I will be genuinely surprised if Cryptozoic manages to eliminate gold farmers/sellers/hackers, they would be the first company to successfully deal with them preemptively.

Revoluketion
04-30-2014, 04:00 PM
Depends on the drop rate and size of community! It could be possible!

Aradon
04-30-2014, 04:53 PM
Considering none of the PvE will be gated, and any individual with an appropriate deck will be able to chain run whatever instances are currently the most profitable, I don't see PvE items being all that valuable.

Lochar
04-30-2014, 05:01 PM
If the best/most profitable items drop from a boss 10 fights into an 'instance' then the whims of luck can mean you lose before you get to said boss.

I seriously doubt there will be awesome treasure after the first fight of a dungeon.

Idus
04-30-2014, 06:23 PM
Definitely. The Lotus Garden will already be the most valuable card in the game :)

But as Eierdottor says, it completely depends on CZE as to how rare and necessary they are. Personally, I think there will be lots of chase PvE items that could become quite valuable. Remember PvE will also grow as PvP grows, so new stuff will be coming out regularly, and old items could possibly become harder to get. Sure, if it's simply a matter of grinding a dungeon to get whatever you want, then there may be no value, but I think Cory is smart enough to not let this be the case.

IndigoShade
04-30-2014, 08:08 PM
Plus the guys at Cypto have said there won't be trivializing of content by out-gearing it as in traditional mmo's. Sure, you might figure out the tricks and learn how to build a deck best suited to handling it, but there won't be a situation where it's just a complete cakewalk because you or your gear is 50 levels higher.

Anyway, it's pretty much all speculation as far as PvE goes at this point, but with Karma & the gold sink, good PvE cards & equipment could very well end up being pretty valuable. I'm looking forward to both PvP and PvE, which is why I pledged GK, so I'm pretty happy with how they tied the two together with the treasure chests.

zadies
04-30-2014, 08:28 PM
The issue is that most companies make more money from hackers/farmers ect then they loose out because they aren't selling their game as a collectors item.

Zomnivore
04-30-2014, 09:10 PM
I personally don't think they will be. Set 1 you may see it potentially, but I don't really think any card in pve is going to be worth more then the highest legendary in pvp

Turtlewing
05-01-2014, 09:17 AM
Considering none of the PvE will be gated, and any individual with an appropriate deck will be able to chain run whatever instances are currently the most profitable, I don't see PvE items being all that valuable.

Raids are gaited in that you need to unlock them by completing their associated dungeon first, and in that they're multi-player content.

Also PvE encounters are all being designed to use fundamentally different mechanics so it's unlikely you can build a single PvE deck that trivializes all content (one specific dungeon/raid maybe but not all of them with one deck), so grinding high end legendary PvE drops is going to require time, effort, and skill well in excess if what buying packs requires.

At the same time, building those grinding decks probably requires high end PvE drops meaning that demand will be proportionate to the number of people grinding, and the grinder's are likely to keep the first instance of any item the get (possibly the first 4 in the case of cards) for their own use. Whereas in PvP you have draft and sealed players who have no use for their cards once opened and only constructed players and collectors making up the demand for cards.

SriSyadasti
05-01-2014, 09:58 AM
There was talk about elite modes of the dungeons that had to be played through with singleton decks and gave special rewards, AA PVE cards and such. The singleton deck requirement would make it very hard to build any sort of deck that might trivialize the challenge, so if there was demand for any of those rewards they might be worth a fair bit. Would anyone be willing to pay much though for cosmetic items in PVE given the limited opportunities to show them off?

Idus
05-01-2014, 01:04 PM
Would anyone be willing to pay much though for cosmetic items in PVE given the limited opportunities to show them off?

That's probably the best question in this thread so far, as no one has looked at it from this angle, that I'm aware of. MMO's have traditionally offered bling, such as emotes, dances, or special gear art, as either a bragging rites items, or a cash-shop item. So what cosmetics could be an incentive in a graphically static game?

Alternate art and sleeves are the obvious choices, but given that in PvE, I. Theory, a large portion of your time would be solo'ing dungeons, no one will see them. PvE cards can't be taken back to PvP to show off, although sleeves can. However, areas in PvE where they could be displayed would be in any Wild West format games, I assume guild battles, and even Keeps. Whether having an AI play your special cards in your Keep is an incentive for shinies, I'm not sure.

I think cosmetics might have a slightly different meaning for Keeps, says I believe there was talk of having special components for Keeps being available, such as adding turrets, traps, etc - custom keep components that you can find. I may be off-base there, but I'm sure that was mentioned somewhere. Also, possibly stuff like flags and emblems also may be customisable on Keeps. Keeps seem like they might be one of the big areas where bragging rights is something that could push the value of PvE gear.

hex_colin
05-01-2014, 01:12 PM
It'll all depend on the relative populations of PVE and PVP players. That being said...

PVE legendary cards and equipment are going to be crazy pricey. Probably much more so than any PVP card.

Poetic
05-01-2014, 02:34 PM
I think PVP will be more popular, and a lot of product will get opened. So we'll see how the supply and demand goes. Having big tournaments that aren't just 8 mans will be a big thing too.

I guess I should never doubt people wanting to spend cash on super rare stuff, I can see the rarest PVE stuff selling for a pretty penny.