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jtatta
04-30-2014, 11:56 AM
Good afternoon,

I was recently having a discussion with some friends about how PvE and the topic of conversation came up of stacking Raid Leader (RL) buffs. From what they seemed to think (and convincingly so) is that the +1 starting hand size, as well as the Raid Leader's Blessing, both stack for each RL in your party. For example, if my party has three RLs, then we'll have a ten card starting hand and each start with three Raid Leader's Blessings in play. My question is if anyone has any information on this. Obviously not much about PvE has come out from CZE's end yet but I'm certain that this has been talked about somewhere at some point.

My thoughts on the matter are that these buffs should not stack. Any game with PvE content naturally turns into a "race to first" when it comes to top guilds vying for world first kills and what not. I think it's a little unfair, and a big turn-off, to feel like you're already out of the race if you don't have a raid group consisted of X RL's where X=the number of players in your group, especially when Spectral Lotus' are going to be such a key part of PvE encounters. Having a starting hand size of ten cards gives us a higher chance to have a Lotus in our opener which could swing the encounter drastically.

At first I thought that I was looking too much into this because we don't know much about PvE yet. The more I think about it, the more turned off I am. What are your thoughts?

- John

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 11:59 AM
If memory serves, the last known info was: Hands stack, Blessings do not.

Kami
04-30-2014, 12:04 PM
Frankly, I would put in to much emphasis into world firsts and the like. There are so many variables beyond just these bonuses that means it wouldn't technically be a fair race to begin with.

I don't see this as being an issue unless it trivializes encounters. Cory and co. have repeatedly stated that would be the case.

To add to this: http://www.wowjuju.com/realm-first-leveling-achievements-removed-20140227

Even Blizzard is removing World Firsts in their upcoming expansion.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 12:05 PM
Also max hand size doesn't stack, only additional Cardin starting hand. But blessing also doesn't stack
Oil
effectively 3 raid leaders would have 2 free mulligans, or have to discard 2 cards.

(a producer will win every world first guaranteed)

they get get all equipment and all PVP cards. Their first deck can be the most blatantly powerful PVE card and equipment all shoved together for overwhelmingness of doom.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 12:06 PM
Also max hand size doesn't stack, only additional Cardin starting hand. But blessing also doesn't stack
Oil
effectively 3 raid leaders would have 2 free mulligans, or have to discard 2 cards.

Huh, hand size increase was part of the perk? Learn something new every day. :p

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 12:08 PM
It actually wasn't. But people keep saying it is. You get more cards but not the ability to hold more than 7.

jtatta
04-30-2014, 12:10 PM
I don't mean to put so much stock into "World First" but that's what games with PvE content evolve into. I just don't think it's really all that fair to have a starting hand size of 10 cards is all. Just an opinion. Very thankful for the responses so far though, thanks everyone!

Daer
04-30-2014, 12:11 PM
I would guess "world firsts" are going to be irrelevant in this game.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 12:16 PM
It actually wasn't. But people keep saying it is. You get more cards but not the ability to hold more than 7.

See, thats how I always understood it. Well, time to ctrl+z my brain and wipe that 'new' info. :p

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 12:23 PM
Just wait until someone with 10 stacked raid leader codes joins up with someone with 20 stacked raid leader codes and someone with 30 stacked raid leader codes and the deck themselves turn 1

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 12:25 PM
Just wait until someone with 10 stacked raid leader codes joins up with someone with 20 stacked raid leader codes and someone with 30 stacked raid leader codes and the deck themselves turn 1

I am fairly sure the stacking comes from each flag in a different account, and each account can only get one flag, so it will never go over 3 cards... Right?

Kami
04-30-2014, 12:25 PM
Just wait until someone with 10 stacked raid leader codes joins up with someone with 20 stacked raid leader codes and someone with 30 stacked raid leader codes and the deck themselves turn 1

I... I... kinda want to see... that.

Yoss
04-30-2014, 12:26 PM
During my visit to CZE, I talked to Kevin about the competitive PvE plans. RL won't be a problem because it won't be allowed in those specific modes. (Remember that "non-tournament PvE" clause?) That's about all I'm allowed to say; they have to do the spoiling when they're ready, and they're still working out the details. And it's all subject to change, so just take this FWIW.

Also, post 2 is correct about the stacking: +1 card stacks, Blessing doesn't. Three RL get 10 cards openeing, but "only" 1 Blessing each.

jtatta
04-30-2014, 12:27 PM
If they disallow the RL buff in a competitive environment (hard modes or whatever) then that's awesome. I'm please with that.

Gwaer
04-30-2014, 12:29 PM
You remember that time we argued for like 500 posts on this topic Yoss? =P

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 12:30 PM
jtatta, I also want to mention that here was meant to be a toggle for the buff, last we heard. But like with what Yoss said, subject to change, etc.

Yoss
04-30-2014, 12:31 PM
You remember that time we argued for like 500 posts on this topic Yoss? =P

Good times were had by all. :)

Kilo24
04-30-2014, 12:41 PM
Just wait until someone with 10 stacked raid leader codes joins up with someone with 20 stacked raid leader codes and someone with 30 stacked raid leader codes and the deck themselves turn 1
...That's what Cory is planning to do with all of the bought-back tiers! :)

nicosharp
04-30-2014, 01:12 PM
I am fairly sure the stacking comes from each flag in a different account, and each account can only get one flag, so it will never go over 3 cards... Right?
^This.
You will never (until the day they decide to make raids more than 3 players per party), be able to start with more than 3 extra cards in hand. Which means 3 different raid leader accounts in the party together for the raid.

Xenavire
04-30-2014, 01:17 PM
^This.
You will never (until the day they decide to make raids more than 3 players per party), be able to start with more than 3 extra cards in hand. Which means 3 different raid leader accounts in the party together for the raid.

...Not quite true! But very close. The fact is, we have good reason to believe that some champions will increase the starting hand size, as well as hand maximums (I believe the merc, Monkey of the 9 tails does this by increasing your starting hand and maximum had sizes to 9 each.)

It remains to be seen if those stack, in practice, however.

AstaSyneri
05-02-2014, 02:41 AM
*sigh*

You really had to mention Raiding, didn't you? Considering how far this likely is going to be off, yet, I consider that unfair and cruel punishment!

I am going to go on quite a few raids with 10 starting cards, I imagine. That really means you'll always have to discard at least one card, doesn't it? Bummer.

Chiany
05-02-2014, 02:58 AM
*sigh*

I am going to go on quite a few raids with 10 starting cards, I imagine. That really means you'll always have to discard at least one card, doesn't it? Bummer.

Doesn't have to be.

If you have 1 or more Ninja Trainings (or other 0 cost cards that don't draw new cards) in your hand, you can get to 7 (or less on turn 1).
This is of course assuming PVE basicly works just like PVP play.

Scammanator
05-02-2014, 07:16 AM
Keep in mind that that in his blog Cory mentioned that account-leveling perks will include "Stuff like additional gold drops in dungeons, no limit to hand size, or an extra beginning game re-draw."

Arbiter
05-02-2014, 07:29 AM
World Firsts are pretty meaningless in most games. WoW's phasing the titles out, as getting them only encourages negative play. Server transfers to less popular servers, getting mates to gank, harrass and distract rivals (if possible), and many come from exploits.

In this game, what matters is the Producer's bonus (4 of every card) which pretty much trumps everything. If I was only a Raid Leader, I'd be miffed if I couldn't get my Raid Leader bonus when Dungeon Crawlers were getting their bonus which is helping them down raiids faster (double loot), Pro Players are benefiting from their extra card pool, and the card resources of the Producer (and in the first few, Dragon Lords) are enabling them to solve the raid far easier.

nicosharp
05-02-2014, 10:08 AM
...Not quite true! But very close. The fact is, we have good reason to believe that some champions will increase the starting hand size, as well as hand maximums (I believe the merc, Monkey of the 9 tails does this by increasing your starting hand and maximum had sizes to 9 each.)

It remains to be seen if those stack, in practice, however.
Lol.. you got more 'technical' on me. Yes Mercenaries and Champions will have certain perks that can push you over the raid leader +3 max.

Xenavire
05-02-2014, 10:14 AM
Lol.. you got more 'technical' on me. Yes Mercenaries and Champions will have certain perks that can push you over the raid leader +3 max.

I love being technical, but your comment actually triggered my theory crafting side. :p

EntropyBall
05-02-2014, 10:21 AM
I am going to go on quite a few raids with 10 starting cards, I imagine. That really means you'll always have to discard at least one card, doesn't it? Bummer.
Bummer unless you are running some sort of re-animator deck, then it becomes an amazing bonus.

Unhurtable
05-02-2014, 10:56 AM
Frankly, I would put in to much emphasis into world firsts and the like. There are so many variables beyond just these bonuses that means it wouldn't technically be a fair race to begin with.

I don't see this as being an issue unless it trivializes encounters. Cory and co. have repeatedly stated that would be the case.

To add to this: http://www.wowjuju.com/realm-first-leveling-achievements-removed-20140227

Even Blizzard is removing World Firsts in their upcoming expansion.

Yes, they are removing it for leveling. There will still be world firsts for Raiding.


You remember that time we argued for like 500 posts on this topic Yoss? =P


Good times were had by all. :)

Good times. Neat.

Voormas
05-02-2014, 02:26 PM
Yea world firsts aren't a thing I have heard many people say they wanted, nerfing peoples rewards to accommodate that I feel wouldn't be a very "Fans First" move

wolzarg
05-02-2014, 07:44 PM
The main problem i see with this is that if its tuned to be a challenge for the normal player with 7 card starter and 0 lotus its going to be trivial for the 10 starter hand which probably contains a lotus. The fact is it is even worse if it is the other way around because that means anyone who joined after the KS is just SOL and they have to buy lotus to even try which won't work most of the time.

sukebe
05-03-2014, 03:02 PM
The main problem i see with this is that if its tuned to be a challenge for the normal player with 7 card starter and 0 lotus its going to be trivial for the 10 starter hand which probably contains a lotus. The fact is it is even worse if it is the other way around because that means anyone who joined after the KS is just SOL and they have to buy lotus to even try which won't work most of the time.

Keep in mind that raids will not work like a normal Hex game. We only know 1 raids mechanics (and those might have changed) and it is considerably different than a 1 on 1. Each raid will have 3 phases and are likely to interrupt play between each one. Of course, more cards will probably help, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are raid bosses where the extra cards could be a double edged sword.

As a side note, I do not think the Lotuses will ever be particularly expensive. I do think they will be the equivalent of Flasks in WoW though. We would need a very large player base and a high use rate on lotuses to get ahead of the amount that will be produced each day. Remember also that every 4 Black tigers can equal an additional lotus to those with gardens.

RCDv57
05-05-2014, 02:30 PM
... I wouldn't be surprised if there are raid bosses where the extra cards could be a double edged sword...

Easy! Just mulligan the extra cards.

sukebe
05-05-2014, 05:59 PM
Easy! Just mulligan the extra cards.

That may work, but they already said you could turn the benefit off. I was simply saying that there were likely situations where extra cards would not be a benefit. I think this ability will be very good, and even better with 3 raid leaders, but it will be far from required and might not always be useful.