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bactgudz
05-01-2014, 08:37 AM
Hi,
Is there a document somewhere that details the rules of hex? It is hard to know whether to report things as a bug or if they are operating as intended.

A couple of examples:
a) Persistence between zones: it seems that most permanent changes persist between zones, like getting +1/+1 and bouncing back to hand...yet it seems that most relationships do not persist between zones, like if a Silver Talon senator damages opponent, it's master in the graveyard does not get +1/+1...is this intended?
b) Definitions: what is a card? Should I be able to cast Revert or Time Ripple targeting a spell on the stack (chain), or a card in the graveyard, or in a hidden zone?

hammer
05-01-2014, 08:43 AM
Hi,
Is there a document somewhere that details the rules of hex? It is hard to know whether to report things as a bug or if they are operating as intended.

A couple of examples:
a) Persistence between zones: it seems that most permanent changes persist between zones, like getting +1/+1 and bouncing back to hand...yet it seems that most relationships do not persist between zones, like if a Silver Talon senator damages opponent, it's master in the graveyard does not get +1/+1...is this intended?
b) Definitions: what is a card? Should I be able to cast Revert or Time Ripple targeting a spell on the stack (chain), or a card in the graveyard, or in a hidden zone?

We have a Quick Start Guide http://f31812b0b389f16c3943-bb9edd4f1582b9b60c1682bd9d280aa0.r48.cf2.rackcdn.c om/HEX_QuickStartGuide.pdf

And a Rules FAQ http://f31812b0b389f16c3943-bb9edd4f1582b9b60c1682bd9d280aa0.r48.cf2.rackcdn.c om/HEX_FAQ_1-3.pdf

The pet/master relationship is remembered no matter what zone either card is in, or if one or both of them have transformed.

bactgudz
05-01-2014, 08:45 AM
Thank you, those are helpful. So I guess what I experienced with Silver Talon Senator was a bug.

Xenavire
05-01-2014, 09:10 AM
Thank you, those are helpful. So I guess what I experienced with Silver Talon Senator was a bug.

I don't think it is - it remembers the link, but it does not mean that the link is active in all zones. Take Royal Falconer as an example - if the master dies and goes to the graveyard, the falcons lose all the attack buff from the falconer. However, if you bring the falconer back from the graveyard, or even transform it into something bigger or smaller, the falcons will update their attack accordingly.

bactgudz
05-01-2014, 10:24 AM
I don't think it is - it remembers the link, but it does not mean that the link is active in all zones. Take Royal Falconer as an example - if the master dies and goes to the graveyard, the falcons lose all the attack buff from the falconer. However, if you bring the falconer back from the graveyard, or even transform it into something bigger or smaller, the falcons will update their attack accordingly.

From the FAQ:
This will affect the Silver Talon Senator’s master even if it moved into a different zone or
transformed into a different form.

So as written, seems to be a bug. They need to clean up the rules. Troops have power and toughness in all zones (otherwise a card ike Shrine of Prosperity wouldn't work); and the master/pet relationship exists in all zones.

bactgudz
05-01-2014, 10:29 AM
Also, does anyone know the answer to definition of a card? I don't own Time Ripple or Revert to test.

Xenavire
05-01-2014, 10:34 AM
I can tell you right now, revert can only target things in the warzone (although there is the chance of an exception in the future that might revert a whole hand, graveyard, etc).

And I think that links somewhat to the pet/master discussion - the rulings are very iffy about cards in the hand or graveyard. I am fairly sure that pet/master relationships are only legal in the warzone unless otherwise stated.

bactgudz
05-01-2014, 10:38 AM
I can tell you right now, revert can only target things in the warzone (although there is the chance of an exception in the future that might revert a whole hand, graveyard, etc).

And I think that links somewhat to the pet/master discussion - the rulings are very iffy about cards in the hand or graveyard. I am fairly sure that pet/master relationships are only legal in the warzone unless otherwise stated.

Actually, Royal Falconer is functioning correctly, the power buff to falcon's is an ability of the falconer which is obviously not active while it is in the graveyard; but Wizard of the Silver talon seems wrong.

Xenavire
05-01-2014, 10:43 AM
Actually, Royal Falconer is functioning correctly, the power buff to falcon's is an ability of the falconer which is obviously not active while it is in the graveyard; but Wizard of the Silver talon seems wrong.

Why not? Just because the link exists doesn't mean it is active in other zones, and the falconer is a good example of that. Although I wouldn't mind a dev coming in to clear it up, my gut says that is it intended to work as it does right now.

I totally understand your point though, and it isn't exactly intuitive.

bactgudz
05-01-2014, 10:50 AM
Why not? Just because the link exists doesn't mean it is active in other zones, and the falconer is a good example of that. Although I wouldn't mind a dev coming in to clear it up, my gut says that is it intended to work as it does right now.

I totally understand your point though, and it isn't exactly intuitive.

Because abilities of cards in the graveyard are not active. The ability that gives +1/+1 is of the Silver Talon Senator, so that should trigger while it's in play...the ability that buffs falcons is an ability of the Falconer, that should only be active when he is in play. The master/pet relationship is always active, but the master/pet relationship is not what gives the Buff of Royal Falconer...it is the ability of Royal Falconer that gives the buff DUE to the master/pet relationship.

The master/pet relationship is a card quality, not an ability so it should always be active.


To clarify, if Royal Falconer is in play, and a falcon dies, that falcon should still have the buff while it's in the gy and the Falconer is in play...but if the Royal Falconer dies, they shouldn't be buffed anymore.

TJTaylor
05-01-2014, 11:26 AM
I could swear I remember the wizard being buffed by the owl while being in the GY in alpha.

Eierdotter
05-01-2014, 12:38 PM
the card rule pdf says, the owl buffs the master and it does not care in which zone he is.

Xenavire
05-01-2014, 12:59 PM
I could swear I remember the wizard being buffed by the owl while being in the GY in alpha.



the card rule pdf says, the owl buffs the master and it does not care in which zone he is.

If this is true, there there has been a long standing bug with the card, because I have seen it in play almost daily (curse you feather drifting downriver) and I have played enough decks that search the opponents graveyard - never saw this actually happen. I won't deny that it is possible, but I am surprised this was never addressed during alpha.

I am quite eager to see something official on this, but I expect it to be fixed in a patch if it is indeed broken, rather than an official response.

GatticusFinch
05-01-2014, 02:02 PM
Along the same lines, I don't understand the complete interaction of troops going negative toughness in hand (by Shadowgrove Witch, for example). I only know the result of the third example because it happened to me. For the others, I don't know what happens.

1. A card that is a natural 1/1 goes to -1/-1 in hand. The card is played. Does it: instantly die without any interrupt? Would I be able to play any sort of buff (charge, quick action, basic) to bring it back to positive before it went to the grave yard?

2. A card with speed has a "pay X: get +1/+1" on it. The card is -1/-1 in hand. The card is played. Does it instantly die before I could pay X?

3. This one actually happened to me, and is supposedly working as intended. High Tomb Lord is naturally 0/0, but the card text states if gets "+1/+1 for each card in all graveyards." I played Shadowgrove Witch, it shows as being 0/0 in opponents hand, and it then goes to -2/-2. Opponent plays the card, and says it entered play as a -2/-2, and then it goes to +13/+13, from a total of 15 grave yard cards. Shouldn't the card be constantly updating in hand as to its P/T? That is, shouldn't I have seen it as a +15/+15 at the time I spotted it with the Witch?

Xenavire
05-01-2014, 02:15 PM
Along the same lines, I don't understand the complete interaction of troops going negative toughness in hand (by Shadowgrove Witch, for example). I only know the result of the third example because it happened to me. For the others, I don't know what happens.

1. A card that is a natural 1/1 goes to -1/-1 in hand. The card is played. Does it: instantly die without any interrupt? Would I be able to play any sort of buff (charge, quick action, basic) to bring it back to positive before it went to the grave yard?


It immediately dies, because the state is checked before (or as?) you gain priority, and dies before you can react.



2. A card with speed has a "pay X: get +1/+1" on it. The card is -1/-1 in hand. The card is played. Does it instantly die before I could pay X?


If it was part of the casting cost, then it would get +X/+X before dying, however, you do not have priority when it dies, so activating it's ability would be impossible (see above, same principle.)



3. This one actually happened to me, and is supposedly working as intended. High Tomb Lord is naturally 0/0, but the card text states if gets "+1/+1 for each card in all graveyards." I played Shadowgrove Witch, it shows as being 0/0 in opponents hand, and it then goes to -2/-2. Opponent plays the card, and says it entered play as a -2/-2, and then it goes to +13/+13, from a total of 15 grave yard cards. Shouldn't the card be constantly updating in hand as to its P/T? That is, shouldn't I have seen it as a +15/+15 at the time I spotted it with the Witch?

I am not sure about when it is in the hand - I think the CE only works while it is in the warzone. But it is a CE and that means it is constantly checking it's P/T while it is in play, so it does not die as it comes into play.

GatticusFinch
05-01-2014, 02:33 PM
So are troops immune to damage while in the hand or deck? Does the negative toughness troop "enter play" for the purpose of other cards (would it get Inspire effects)? Would my opponent be able to play an interrupt on a negative toughness card to prevent it from entering play?

Xenavire
05-01-2014, 03:04 PM
So are troops immune to damage while in the hand or deck? Does the negative toughness troop "enter play" for the purpose of other cards (would it get Inspire effects)? Would my opponent be able to play an interrupt on a negative toughness card to prevent it from entering play?

1) This is not known - several effects have specifically mentioned damaging troops in the deck, however none of them have ever made it live. For now, I am going to say based on experience, that yes, they are immune to damage. But not immune to destruction or buffs/debuffs.

2) It depends on the effect - a shield trainer will inspire a troop before they are checked for death, as will any other inspire effects. However, they specifically say 'as enters play' - I don't know off the top of my head if any 'when enters play' effects grant stats, so I have nothing to check it against. So there is one certain yes, and a maybe for certain timings.

3) Yes, they would be able to interrupt anything on the stack/chain - they would have to resolve to make it into play. So you could counter them before they made it into play - a handy thing to note for troops that have come into play effects.