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Rapkannibale
05-01-2014, 11:24 PM
Hi there,

I am wondering when exactly the possible loot from a chest is determined? I ask because there will be chest content that is only available during a certain time (for example during GenCon 2014 there will be some exclusive mercenaries available).

So if the chest content is determined when you open the pack then I will hold off opening a bunch of them until GenCon but if the content is determined when you open the actual chest, well then I can still open more packs now. :)

Has any info about this been released? If not, could someone from the Hex staff kindly answer. :)

Thanks!

hex_colin
05-01-2014, 11:28 PM
Maybe I know the answer. But I'm not a member of staff... Oh well. ;)

Rapkannibale
05-02-2014, 12:07 AM
Maybe I know the answer. But I'm not a member of staff... Oh well. ;)

Semantics! I consider you a member of staff!

Miyordon
05-02-2014, 12:09 AM
Maybe I know the answer. But I'm not a member of staff... Oh well. ;)

Colin, how mean. It is at pack purchase, right?

BossHoss
05-02-2014, 12:31 AM
Listening intently...

hammer
05-02-2014, 12:46 AM
My understanding is that when a chest is generated the contents are not known, however, if a chest is generated (by opening a pack) during a convention weekend the chest will be marked such that any of the convention specific loot is added to the loot table when you roll and generate the contents on pack opening. So my understanding is if you want to get the Con-loot you need to hold off on opening the packs.

GPrime
05-02-2014, 02:35 AM
That pretty much matches my understanding also. There are multiple "loot tables" for chests (currently just for rarity, but later on promotional tables and perhaps set tables will exist) and which table a chest belongs to is determined when it is granted. I would presume that rolling a chest and winning an upgrade jumps it up to the next loot table in the same category, but wouldn't for example make a rare "normal" chest into a legendary "gencon" chest if rolled at gencon.

bofedy
05-02-2014, 03:11 AM
I thought it was all generated on opening so people who get chests early dont get screewed.

Rapkannibale
05-02-2014, 03:16 AM
Come on Colin! If you know the answer don't leave us hanging! :)

ossuary
05-02-2014, 03:44 AM
Our most recent staff-verified information is exactly as hammer described it. The loot table of possible contents is determined when the chest is generated by opening a pack (including any special loot table rules for conventions or other special events), but what you actually GET from the chest is not generated until you actually open it.

Packs work the same way, by the way. Their generation determines their potential (loot table), the actual contents are generated when you actually open them.

mujrim
05-02-2014, 05:44 AM
Packs work the same way, by the way. Their generation determines their potential (loot table), the actual contents are generated when you actually open them.

So they dropped the idea of simulating physical print runs? I thought that was one of the big ideas to keep it as close as possible to a physical tcg for drafting/sealed.

ossuary
05-02-2014, 06:10 AM
So they dropped the idea of simulating physical print runs? I thought that was one of the big ideas to keep it as close as possible to a physical tcg for drafting/sealed.

No, the print run style simulation is mimicked when you open packs, not when you buy them (or at least, that's what we were last told about how it will work - not sure if it's actually in client yet).

If you want to simulate opening a box to get a better distribution of cards, you open multiple packs at once so they're all treated as a single transaction. If you open packs one at a time, it will pull your cards from the random place in the global "print run" algorithm that everyone else is sharing simultaneously - your distribution will be much more random (with the potential for dry runs and clumping you see with all "mostly random" number generating).

Anecdotally (and I know that means almost nothing), it feels to me like this is already working. I've opened about 20 packs one at a time in beta, and probably about 50-60 packs in alpha, and not ONCE have I gotten a legendary in those packs (I still don't know what the red glow looks like). But every single time I've clicked the open 10 button instead, I've ended up with 1-3 legendaries. Guess which way I open packs now, exclusively? ;)

Kami
05-02-2014, 06:13 AM
From what we've read, it seems like it will be this:

1. Chests' loot tables are determined when they are generated.
2. Chests earned by opening packs during an event will be marked with an event loot table.
3. Loot tables are rolled when you open the chest.

I can't confirm this though but I think that's the common thought atm.

Scammanator
05-02-2014, 06:48 AM
I'm taking Colin's comment to mean that things may have changed somewhat on how this all works, but CZE hasn't announced the changes yet.

Colin doesn't want to tell you information he knows is inaccurate, but also doesn't want to steal CZE's thunder by announcing things he's been told in private.

However, I'd hold on to some booster packs just to be safe.

Zomnivore
05-02-2014, 06:55 AM
This might be a psychological bias and not carried out in reality...but I felt as though I got many many more legendaries opening 10 packs at a time then I did through opening series of packs in a row.

ossuary
05-02-2014, 06:57 AM
This might be a psychological bias and not carried out in reality...but I felt as though I got many many more legendaries opening 10 packs at a time then I did through opening series of packs in a row.

That was definitely my experience as well, like I said above. Though again, I am 100% saying upfront that is entirely anecdotal and I wouldn't draw any actual conclusions from it. :)

Kami
05-02-2014, 07:38 AM
I'm taking Colin's comment to mean that things may have changed somewhat on how this all works, but CZE hasn't announced the changes yet.

Colin doesn't want to tell you information he knows is inaccurate, but also doesn't want to steal CZE's thunder by announcing things he's been told in private.

However, I'd hold on to some booster packs just to be safe.

Could also be NDA. Just guessing, heh.

hex_colin
05-02-2014, 08:00 AM
OK, I've had my fun.


From what we've read, it seems like it will be this:
1. Chests' loot tables are determined when they are generated.
2. Chests earned by opening packs during an event will be marked with an event loot table.
3. Loot tables are rolled when you open the chest.

1 and 2 definitely (last I'd heard). 3 - probably, but presumably irrelevant to us (from a drop perspective, not a database performance) in the scheme of things.


I'm taking Colin's comment to mean that things may have changed somewhat on how this all works, but CZE hasn't announced the changes yet.

Colin doesn't want to tell you information he knows is inaccurate, but also doesn't want to steal CZE's thunder by announcing things he's been told in private.

However, I'd hold on to some booster packs just to be safe.

No changes to what they've told us previously (that I'm aware of), but that doesn't mean that they won't iterate on it if a better, more efficient, faster design emerges. And, yeah, I might know what's in the chests and how the rarities differ - but I'm looking forward to the thread that tries to work it out (like the chest rarity distribution one).

They're still definitely simulating print runs with virtual card hoppers. That whole process is fascinating actually - worth stalking Chris Woods just to ask him about it. ;)

ossuary
05-02-2014, 08:09 AM
Believe me, if I ever manage to get my ass back to California again, I intend to spend WAY more time in the office talking to everyone than I do actually playing / looking at anything. I'm completely fascinated by all of this stuff... the statistics, the programmatic efficiency, the AI (especially!), the psychology... I want to talk about all of it. :)

Scammanator
05-02-2014, 08:15 AM
No changes to what they've told us previously (that I'm aware of)

Awww... why do you have to go and squash my wild, unfounded conspiracy theories?

WildStyle
05-03-2014, 06:53 AM
Okay, you guys all talk to fancy...

So if I buy a pack now the content of it is not generated? apart from other stuff, but not the cards themself?
So If I were to open a pre purchased pack later the contents will be those current or the old content? Cause that is whats confusing me at this point...Ya'll say to many things. :D

Aradon
05-03-2014, 07:20 AM
The chest content will be determined by when you open the pack, not when it was purchased.

ossuary
05-03-2014, 08:06 AM
What a chest CAN contain (the loot table) is determined when you open the pack and create the treasure chest.

What a chest ACTUALLY contains is determined when you open the chest itself (the loot you receive from the loot table).

Bells
05-03-2014, 10:27 AM
what i'm getting from this thread, and that i would like confirmation on, is that we can actually confirm a real advantage in opening lots of packs in a single go instead that one by one.

Hieronymous
05-03-2014, 10:39 AM
What about if a chest is upgraded? Is it worth re-spinning my chests during Gencon?

hex_colin
05-03-2014, 10:40 AM
what i'm getting from this thread, and that i would like confirmation on, is that we can actually confirm a real advantage in opening lots of packs in a single go instead that one by one.

At the time of a special event - yes, if you want the specials that are associated with that event.

For the point of view of card distribution? Depends on what you want. Opening as many packs as possible within the same hopper fill would presumably give you the smoothest distribution of cards (dependent on other pack opening traffic, etc.). Opening packs spaced apart (and likely from differ hopper fills) gives you the possibility of streaks of the best/most valuable cards. At the end of the day, it's probably not going to have any meaningful impact on your collection/luck unless you're systematically opening thousands of packs.

Aradon
05-03-2014, 10:56 AM
What about if a chest is upgraded? Is it worth re-spinning my chests during Gencon?

I imagine that the rewards from the Wheel of Fate will change periodically. For example, currently you can win Set 1 legendaries, a merc, an alternate-art card (or several? haven't tried myself) and I think a set of sleeves. I would expect those to change when set 2 is released. Therefore, spinning some now and some later will tend to give you a variety of rewards. We may see the Wheel of Fate offer special rewards during Gencon/other events, or we may not.

I don't believe that upgrading your chest is impacted at all by time/events, though, so specifically trying to upgrade chests during GenCon shouldn't impact the content of the chest, just what rewards you'll garner in the process by spinning the wheel.

And the idea that Gencon might feature special rewards on the Wheel of Fate is purely speculation on my part, too. So the best answer to your question is, no. GenCon doesn't offer any special benefit towards spinning the Wheel of Fate that we know of.

Rapkannibale
05-03-2014, 11:14 AM
And the idea that Gencon might feature special rewards on the Wheel of Fate is purely speculation on my part, too. So the best answer to your question is, no. GenCon doesn't offer any special benefit towards spinning the Wheel of Fate that we know of.

Actually, IIRC, Cory confirmed that the exclusive mercs from GenCon 2013 and whatever new exclusives will be available at GenCon this year will be available as random drops during the actual event. That was in reaction to players that couldn't physically make it to GenCon would miss out on content.

hex_colin
05-03-2014, 11:22 AM
I imagine that the rewards from the Wheel of Fate will change periodically. For example, currently you can win Set 1 legendaries, a merc, an alternate-art card (or several? haven't tried myself) and I think a set of sleeves. I would expect those to change when set 2 is released. Therefore, spinning some now and some later will tend to give you a variety of rewards. We may see the Wheel of Fate offer special rewards during Gencon/other events, or we may not.

Actual WoF spins can grant:


1 Common from the Current Set - AA, Merc, Sleeves (white matching symbols) - currently Windbourne Acolyte
1 Uncommon from the Current Set - AA, Merc, Sleeves (red matching symbols) - currently Veteran Gladiator
1 Rare from the Current Set - AA, Merc, Sleeves (gold? matching symbols) - currently Wrathwood Colossus (the AA is insane!)
1 Common PVE Card (white matching symbols) - currently Lightning Elemental
1 Uncommon PVE Card (red matching symbols) - currently Water Elemental
1 Rare PVE Card - currently ?
1 of 6 Equipment (2 Common, 2 Uncommon, 2 Rare) - currently Sky Walker, Aqua Sash, ...

& Random Rares & Legendaries, Gold, Upgrades, Free Spins, etc.

Then there are completely separate loot tables for inside the chests, that may or may not change from set to set, but will evolve over time.

Aradon
05-03-2014, 11:22 AM
Actually, IIRC, Cory confirmed that the exclusive mercs from GenCon 2013 and whatever new exclusives will be available at GenCon this year will be available as random drops during the actual event. That was in reaction to players that couldn't physically make it to GenCon would miss out on content.

Last I heard, this is true. However, I took that to mean from the treasure chests, rather than from the Wheel of Fate. The stuff you get from spinning the Wheel is bonus in addition to whatever's in the chest, and from what I understand, the event exclusives are found inside the chest.

Therefore, what I meant was that spinning the wheel of fate can be done at any time, regardless of event (though it's always possible that there will be special Wheel of Fate loots as well), and the exclusives will still be in the chest as long as the pack that was opened that generated the chest was opened during the event time frame.

TJTaylor
05-03-2014, 11:24 AM
Wrathwood Colossus (the AA is insane!)

Got a pic? :D

hex_colin
05-03-2014, 11:28 AM
Got a pic? :D

I think someone posted it in a thread recently - can't find it though. I saw it in the Card Editor @ CZE - haven't had enough Gold to get one myself yet. And, the Rare stuff looks like it'll be REALLY chasey...

dogmod
05-03-2014, 11:58 AM
Check your game files :)... it is very sexy looking.

I agree with the reworks for veteran gladiator and the wrathwood. I personally didn't think the windbourne acolyte art was bad but meh? Maybe they had a really good idea for the merc or ?

TJTaylor
05-03-2014, 12:01 PM
Check your game files :)... it is very sexy looking

Thanks for the tip. Just went and found it. Pretty awesome.

Incindium
05-03-2014, 02:22 PM
Dunno about the opening 10 packs being better than single packs... I opened 10 packs individually today and got 3 legendary cards(actually the 3 came in the last 5 packs I opened). That puts me at 4 legendary for 15 packs opened so far and all were opened a single pack at a time. I think its just the RNG at play.

ossuary
05-03-2014, 03:26 PM
Nobody said one way was "better" than the other. We are saying that CZE said opening multiple packs at once is meant to simulate opening packs from the same box, or the same place in the virtual hopper of the virtual printing run. Whereas opening packs one at a time is "truly random," as it takes the pack from wherever they are in the global hopper that everyone is pulling from.

You can still have good and bad runs opening packs one at a time. Opening them in a group is more likely to give you a more even distribution, just like opening packs from the same box do with a physical print run. Neither of those is inherently good or bad, they're just different.

Hieronymous
05-04-2014, 08:59 AM
I imagine that the rewards from the Wheel of Fate will change periodically. For example, currently you can win Set 1 legendaries, a merc, an alternate-art card (or several? haven't tried myself) and I think a set of sleeves. I would expect those to change when set 2 is released. Therefore, spinning some now and some later will tend to give you a variety of rewards. We may see the Wheel of Fate offer special rewards during Gencon/other events, or we may not.

I don't believe that upgrading your chest is impacted at all by time/events, though, so specifically trying to upgrade chests during GenCon shouldn't impact the content of the chest, just what rewards you'll garner in the process by spinning the wheel.

And the idea that Gencon might feature special rewards on the Wheel of Fate is purely speculation on my part, too. So the best answer to your question is, no. GenCon doesn't offer any special benefit towards spinning the Wheel of Fate that we know of.


Well, the reason I was asking was this:


What a chest CAN contain (the loot table) is determined when you open the pack and create the treasure chest.

What a chest ACTUALLY contains is determined when you open the chest itself (the loot you receive from the loot table).


Shouldn't upgrading a chest from, say, Common to Rare, or Rare to Primal, reset its loot table? And if the loot table is reset during the convention . . .

Seems like it would be worth at least saving chests to roll upgrades during gencon and trying it out.

Kami
05-04-2014, 09:13 AM
Shouldn't upgrading a chest from, say, Common to Rare, or Rare to Primal, reset its loot table? And if the loot table is reset during the convention . . .

Seems like it would be worth at least saving chests to roll upgrades during gencon and trying it out.

My theory would be that chest quality only affects percentage chance of a type of drop (e.g. Legendary, AA, etc.), not necessarily the loot table itself.

hex_colin
05-04-2014, 09:14 AM
My theory would be that chest quality only affects percentage chance of a type of drop (e.g. Legendary, AA, etc.), not necessarily the loot table itself.

That seems reasonable. :)

Yoss
05-04-2014, 09:41 AM
My theory would be that chest quality only affects percentage chance of a type of drop (e.g. Legendary, AA, etc.), not necessarily the loot table itself.

I consider % chance an integral part of what a loot table is. If you change the odds, you now have a different loot table. Thus, two chests with the same loot list can still have different loot tables. A table generally has more than one column. A list has only one column.

ossuary
05-04-2014, 09:42 AM
That would be my expectation as well. Higher quality chest means you get better chance at the rarer items on the table (or possibly more total items, or even both). But the loot table doesn't change when the rarity does, just the % chance on the roll.

edit: Yoss is technically correct here, as well. It depends on how you define "table." We all say "loot table" because that's the common terminology, but if the percentages change based on various factors (like rarity of chest), then it is in fact a loot list, with multiple loot tables feeding off of it. But we still tend to use the term interchangeably. When we say "the loot table doesn't change," what we really mean is you can't get completely different items just by rerolling the chest at a later date, it's just easier (and clear enough) to say it how we're already saying it. :)

hex_colin
05-04-2014, 10:06 AM
"loot table" vs. "loot list" is all semantics. "loot table" is a perfectly fine way to describe either "definition", e.g. this is most definitely a single "table" that represents chances for getting loot at multiple rarities...

1765

Kami
05-04-2014, 10:08 AM
"loot table" vs. "loot list" is all semantics. "loot table" is a perfectly fine way to describe either "definition", e.g. this is most definitely a single "table" that represents chances for getting loot at multiple rarities...

1765

This was pretty much what I was thinking.

dogmod
05-04-2014, 10:54 AM
I posted in another thread and a Purple replied that rolling your chests in a convention will not reset the chest even if it is upgraded.

nicosharp
05-04-2014, 11:10 AM
I posted in another thread and a Purple replied that rolling your chests in a convention will not reset the chest even if it is upgraded.
that sucks

hex_colin
05-04-2014, 11:14 AM
that sucks

The reality is that giving extra stuff in chests at special events is a 2-way street. CZE is helping out people who can't travel, get a ticket, etc. In return, people have to buy/open packs at that specific time to get a chance at the loot. They are most definitely "fan first", but they're also a business that has to make money.

Bells
05-04-2014, 11:39 AM
i dunno if it's just perception but i had a feeling that opening packs in groups of 10 generate more common chests than opening them one by one... would that even be possible?

hex_colin
05-04-2014, 11:43 AM
i dunno if it's just perception but i had a feeling that opening packs in groups of 10 generate more common chests than opening them one by one... would that even be possible?

I'd doubt that - given that it looks like common chests are around a 60% drop rate (there's another thread around here with data), you're going to see them pretty often.

You could open 10 packs, 10 times and have a ~4% chance of seeing 90 common chests. Unless you're opening 1000's of packs and still seeing an overall drop rate of significantly above or below 60%, it's just randomness!

fido_one
05-04-2014, 01:40 PM
So... I get that CZE has stated that it currently plans to attach loot tables to chests when the pack is opened.

Wouldn't it be better for them to attach loot tables when the chest is opened? Seems so much simpler.

Right now, how will I differentiate chests in my pool that were cracked at what times? I'm sure I won't have enough gold to open all my chests by the time an event with a new loot table rolls around. How about the AH? Will they affix a time stamp or information to say a certain chest has a special loot table or will we have to rely on the word of the seller?

If the loot table is generated when you open the chest it just keeps it a lot simpler in my eyes - am I wrong here?

nicosharp
05-04-2014, 01:46 PM
The reality is that giving extra stuff in chests at special events is a 2-way street. CZE is helping out people who can't travel, get a ticket, etc. In return, people have to buy/open packs at that specific time to get a chance at the loot. They are most definitely "fan first", but they're also a business that has to make money.

I don't agree with that as a 'reality'. The reality is people will still abuse it if they store up packs. What is the overall difference of storing up a pack or a chest? Either way, you don't have to spend money. You still have to farm to store chests/spin chests. You can buy chests for gold, and may be able to buy packs for gold as well.

If they choose to do that, its fine. It just changes the way people farm for the content.

The only absolute way to ensure income for content during a special event is to tack it on to pack purchases directly from CZE during the event. Not Packs in inventory, or chests created from packs in inventory.

dogmod
05-04-2014, 01:58 PM
I don't agree with that as a 'reality'. The reality is people will still abuse it if they store up packs. What is the overall difference of storing up a pack or a chest? Either way, you don't have to spend money. You still have to farm to store chests/spin chests. You can buy chests for gold, and may be able to buy packs for gold as well.

If they choose to do that, its fine. It just changes the way people farm for the content.

The only absolute way to ensure income for content during a special event is to tack it on to pack purchases directly from CZE during the event. Not Packs in inventory, or chests created from packs in inventory.


Your way doesn't encourage people to interact as much. If you make it based on chests generated during the event that means people opening packs... if people are opening packs what is the best way to open packs? Drafts and sealed! So I expect that convention weekends will be great weekends to be doing drafts and tournaments as it will encourage people to come on to open packs that way. No obviously some people will just open packs outside of the tournament scene but at least there is that small element of pushing people to interact and community build.

I am sure they will also have some cool tournaments and stuff going on during those weekends to encourage a festive/con atmosphere in game.

The other thing is that if you expect there is a certain demand for packs for drafts and sealed then the way you would have the items generate (on chest opening/rolling) would not encourage any reduction in the current supply to the draft/sealed pack demand.

I am personally not that reasonable as I have been opening 5-10 packs a day until tourney's come... out of boredom even though I am not a huge constructed player and I know about the Con weekends setup... People just aren't always reasonable. Count me as one of them.

nicosharp
05-04-2014, 03:40 PM
I guess it forces us to reduce compulsiveness until events.

Deathfog
05-04-2014, 08:00 PM
Best way to honor the spirit of GenCon is to save your packs and draft/tourney a ton in mid August. Be a nice spike in draft participation that week and 3 shots at GenCon exclusives per run.