PDA

View Full Version : Let's talk grey market.



Bells
05-02-2014, 04:53 AM
So... a very common issue to all games that have digital goods. And barriers to prevent grey markets... they usually have big huge grey markets...


So, how do you feel about that in general?

For the sake of clarity, let me pose what i consider a ''grey market'' (as it may change from people to people).


Websites that will sell you items outside of gameforge/crypt/game client . From what i understand, gold and platinum are immune to that stuff because you can't gift/trade those. Which i think is great actually... cards on the other hand... i want to know not only what you think of that, but what the game designers think about that...

Farmers, shoppers and overall digital traders make a living acquiring digital goods and selling them in a platform of convenience for other players in order to generate revenue. this are smart people, not some backyard douche trying to game the system.... MTG Online has goddamn Shop Bots that trade tickets and currency for cards! it's 24/7 online shop and i would NOT be surprise if we had a few people that work with that among the high end backers... already learning the system to see if there is a margin of profit to jump in early on being the ''guy with the supply for the demand'' y'know?

So, how do you feel about a potential grey market inside Hex? I really like how Crypt is handling their business side of the game... i feel really confident in their model... so, actually... the grey market bothers me and i wish we could avoid ever developping one.... but... it just might be impossible. Very little can stand in the way of 2 people exchanging real cash in order to exchange cards in game later....


So, what you think?

Poetic
05-02-2014, 04:57 AM
It's going to be impossible to stop and could hurt the game. People will sell their cards out of game to avoid AH fees.

I have no idea how you go about stopping it.

Niedar
05-02-2014, 05:12 AM
You can trade platinum, and everyone wants a grey market.

Bells
05-02-2014, 05:28 AM
You can trade platinum, and everyone wants a grey market.

Really? dunno where i got that you couldn't trade platinum... so that leads in gold farmers?

As for Grey Market... really? People want that? Isn't a grey market a consequence of a regular market incapable of supplying the demand of the userbase?

...isn't a grey market something that saps money OUT of Hex?

why do people want this?

YourOpponent
05-02-2014, 05:30 AM
Hex already has a grey market. http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=34690

blakegrandon
05-02-2014, 05:35 AM
Isn't a grey market a consequence of a regular market incapable of supplying the demand of the userbase?



A grey market is a market that does what a regular market does except at a lower price. Consumers want a grey market because it forces the prices of the regular market to be more reasonable, at least in theory.

There will be a grey market no matter how many hoops/boundaries/software Cryptozoic engineers for the simple fact that money is involved.

They could make everything Bind on pickup, no trading, no auction house, no sharing accounts and "entrepreneurs" would still find a way.

Shit, D3 got rid of their AH, made it so you can't trade gold, made all the good loot pretty much bind on pickup, and there is still a grey market for "power leveling" paragon levels and there is still a market for gold selling!

Where there is a will there is a way, although I suspect Cryptozoic will partner with the grey market as the grey market is more reputable than their current partner sponsorpay...

ossuary
05-02-2014, 06:05 AM
A grey market is inevitable, because some people will always be willing to risk losing their stuff on the chance of a lower price. But how LARGE the grey market is will be impacted by how convenient and how secure the official offering of buy/sell/trade is in-game. If CZE makes it easy, convenient, and safe to use the in-game system, the vast majority of people will prefer to use that over an outside system that is not secure. The safety is the biggest draw to a company-sanctioned method, because it means you can buy and sell with confidence that you aren't getting scammed (unless you get ripped off on price, a separate issue which can also be mitigated by good tools).

mach
05-02-2014, 06:42 AM
You can definitely avoid a grey market completely. If people want to buy/sell items for real money, let them.

GatticusFinch
05-02-2014, 07:17 AM
Hex already has a grey market. http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=34690

Whether or not HexTCGPro is grey market or not is still unknown. Supposedly they got CZE's "blessing" to run the store, which could mean it is totally legitimate or could mean they are going to just ignore it.

AFAIK, there has been no statement that the in-game AH will allow you to use real money.

malloc31
05-02-2014, 07:36 AM
Whether or not HexTCGPro is grey market or not is still unknown. Supposedly they got CZE's "blessing" to run the store, which could mean it is totally legitimate or could mean they are going to just ignore it.

AFAIK, there has been no statement that the in-game AH will allow you to use real money.

If the in game auction house allows you to use platinum, and you buy platinum with real money, isn't it the same?

Niedar
05-02-2014, 07:39 AM
No, because I can't use Platinum to buy groceries.

GatticusFinch
05-02-2014, 07:43 AM
If the in game auction house allows you to use platinum, and you buy platinum with real money, isn't it the same?

Not unless I can turn platinum into cash.

nicosharp
05-02-2014, 07:53 AM
This game is probably one of the only digital games that will be open to a grey market.

WoW had digital goods you could sell or buy, but the third party/grey market sites were not condoned. You could get the goods through Ebay, but often times had server/geographical restrictions.

Because this game is 100% digital, and a TCG, you would think 3rd party trade will be more open. Now to buy from a premie site like the one listed by blake is pretty dumb. You want the prices to stabilize first, because, especially for set1, the cards will not be worth much, and you probably want to buy 75% or less in cash than you would in Platinum ($1 for $1).

There really will not be much benefit to going 3rd party when there is an Auction house, unless there is a shortage of supply, or the AH has them listed at too high a price.

The bigger contender is to also be observant of third party sites trying to control the market by buying all the AH stock. Whenever there is an ability to profit, the people with the most time and capital can really skew the value of something by controlling and limiting the quantity.

It would be nice to see the auction house have some limitations in place, like a limit of 50 auctions a day, or 1 buyout per minute, etc. It doesn't stop botting from controlling particular items, but makes the botters job more difficult.

LLCoolDave
05-02-2014, 07:56 AM
Which is pretty much the point of having Platinum in the first place. I'm fairly certain that the legal implications of players shuffling around tokens that can only be used in Hex and them moving about actual legal tender are quite different. As the game doesn't provide any "officially sanctioned" method of cashing out, i.e. turning your digital goods with a perceived equivalent value of a real currency back into something you can actually use outside of hex, there will always be demand for a grey market. This is why MTGO bot chains offer bot/store credit for cheaper than the equivalent cost of event tickets or a direct interface to buy cards for real money, it's the only way (besides selling event tickets for real money) they can actually turn a profit outside the game economy.

Second hand selling has no big influence on CZE's profits, platinum still can only be created by them at the same set rate no matter how the existing platinum is shuffled around, and I'm not sure any real money shops can operate all too well in the 5% margin left by the AH fees because unlike MTGO, they are not tied to bot chains that still actively partake in the day to day economy so I'm not convinced that keeping up a stock and keeping up with prices is worth the time investment.

nicosharp
05-02-2014, 08:00 AM
It doesn't matter what we think about the time investment. Most third party sites looking to profit will be made up of teams of "pros" that pool their cards together from constant drafts to resell for cash. AH fees aside, they will be able to pull cash flow for rares drafted and plat flow from packs won.

GatticusFinch
05-02-2014, 08:03 AM
There are ticket sellers in MTGO as well, which they manage to sell for a very slight discount.

LLCoolDave
05-02-2014, 08:04 AM
It doesn't matter what we think about the time investment. Most third party sites looking to profit will be made up of teams of "pros" that pool their cards together from constant drafts to resell for cash. AH fees aside, they will be able to pull cash flow for rares drafted and plat flow from packs won.

Yes, but why bother selling cards? Why not just sell cards on the AH and then deal with buying/selling platinum? I can definitely see room for second hand platinum traders, and having those attached to a team of pro players can help establish the necessary trust for them.

jtatta
05-02-2014, 08:12 AM
It's not really about getting CZE's "blessing" to open open a store outside of the game. Anyone can do it. It's digital goods that you pay for and it all comes from them at some point. That said, yes, Cory himself told me that it was fine to do and I'm not sure why this keeps coming up. HexTCGPro is a big part of the HEX TCG community and we'd never do anything to mess that up, especially open a store to earn a few dollars.

As far as buying and selling platinum, this is something that'd we'd like to do but again I'd need to confirm with Cory that it's okay to do. While it is similar to selling our own digital goods, there is a fine line somewhere and that's probably tip-toe'ing that line. Again, we don't want to do anything to tarnish our reputation within the community or give us a bad reputation. We value our excellent customer service and gaming experience and appreciate this community above all others.

I've addressed why buying and selling from our store rather than the AH can be beneficial but obviously it's up to the players where they spend their hard earned money and platinum.

- John

bactgudz
05-02-2014, 08:14 AM
Has Crypto announced what the structure of the AH fees will be (if any)?

GatticusFinch
05-02-2014, 08:17 AM
It's not really about getting CZE's "blessing" to open open a store outside of the game. Anyone can do it. It's digital goods that you pay for and it all comes from them at some point. That said, yes, Cory himself told me that it was fine to do and I'm not sure why this keeps coming up. HexTCGPro is a big part of the HEX TCG community and we'd never do anything to mess that up, especially open a store to earn a few dollars.

As far as buying and selling platinum, this is something that'd we'd like to do but again I'd need to confirm with Cory that it's okay to do. While it is similar to selling our own digital goods, there is a fine line somewhere and that's probably tip-toe'ing that line. Again, we don't want to do anything to tarnish our reputation within the community or give us a bad reputation. We value our excellent customer service and gaming experience and appreciate this community above all others.

I've addressed why buying and selling from our store rather than the AH can be beneficial but obviously it's up to the players where they spend their hard earned money and platinum.

- John

Are you guys planning on buying individual cards from players for cash?

LLCoolDave
05-02-2014, 08:29 AM
Has Crypto announced what the structure of the AH fees will be (if any)?

I don't think there's been an official announcement, but some employees have stated it to be intended as a 5% fee on sale in the ingame chat some time ago.

GatticusFinch
05-02-2014, 08:42 AM
I don't think there's been an official announcement, but some employees have stated it to be intended as a 5% fee on sale in the ingame chat some time ago.

Is the AH going to be real cash money or are you talking they will take 5% of the plat? I don't think I have ever heard an answer for this. If it is going to be real cash, there is almost zero incentive not to use the grey market to avoid the commission.

LLCoolDave
05-02-2014, 08:44 AM
Platinum and Gold. As I stated before, there is no incentive for CZE to offer real money transactions in the game beyond the initial purchase of platinum from them. Anything else is just a massive headache for everyone involved.

Lawlschool
05-02-2014, 08:46 AM
Is the AH going to be real cash money or are you talking they will take 5% of the plat? I don't think I have ever heard an answer for this. If it is going to be real cash, there is almost zero incentive not to use the grey market to avoid the commission.

AH is going to be in Plat and Gold, so fees come out of Plat or Gold. Eventually I think they want to let people "cash out" their plat, but AFAIK there's no plans to let people buy/sell directly with real currency.

And a 5% fee is really nothing, just have to factor it in when selling. If you plan on selling to a grey market, they'll probably take a greater "fee" since they need to make profit on resale.

hex_colin
05-02-2014, 08:47 AM
Is the AH going to be real cash money or are you talking they will take 5% of the plat? I don't think I have ever heard an answer for this. If it is going to be real cash, there is almost zero incentive not to use the grey market to avoid the commission.

The AH is Platinum and Gold. I haven't actually heard any specific plans for taking a commission. Obviously, they'd be crazy not to. Not sure how the grey market helps you there though - it's likely that the convenience, security, and speed of the in-game AH will make it very difficult for external sellers to compete, even if their "commissions" are lower.

Poetic
05-02-2014, 08:50 AM
I'll probably stick with the AH for ease of things at first and to support the game.

jtatta
05-02-2014, 08:54 AM
Are you guys planning on buying individual cards from players for cash?

Yes. A buy list will be implemented shortly after trading is added in-game.

EDIT: Please note that our buy list will offer significantly less "cash" than you'd likely get in platinum from the AH. If we offered the same amount in cash, we'd be out of business in a month. Also, we'll offer store credit for your cards as well if that's an option that you're interested in.

- John

ossuary
05-02-2014, 08:57 AM
Cory HAS said that he wants to have real money transactions be supported in game, but I consider that to be along the lines of a pipe dream, at least for now, and not something we'd see any time soon. The hurdles you have to jump over to make that kind of thing possible (basically, you'd be setting yourself up as a de facto bank) are enormous. It's possible, but a very time consuming and strenuous process.

For now, count on things just being plat and gold, with CZE charging a transaction fee of some sort: a % of sale for sure, possibly a listing fee as well that may or may not be refunded when your item sells, to help discourage frivolous or outrageous listing (this one is tricky; if you go too far, it will discourage usage overall... but if you don't go far enough, the market is flooded with junk).

GatticusFinch
05-02-2014, 09:00 AM
The AH is Platinum and Gold. I haven't actually heard any specific plans for taking a commission. Obviously, they'd be crazy not to. Not sure how the grey market helps you there though - it's likely that the convenience, security, and speed of the in-game AH will make it very difficult for external sellers to compete, even if their "commissions" are lower.

Well, if the grey market is the only way to pay cash, that's the incentive.

Allowing a direct cash out is a big can of worms for CZE. I play daily fantasy sports for money, which is legal in most states in the U.S., and those sites require SSNs, sending out tax records, etc. I get a 1099 for the amount of my profit to report to the IRS. I don't think CZE has the ability to manage that at this point.

Depending on how people generate the platinum for the cash out, Hex could also run afoul of the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act, as I am not sure it would qualify as a game of skill.

LLCoolDave
05-02-2014, 09:01 AM
For now, count on things just being plat and gold, with CZE charging a transaction fee of some sort: a % of sale for sure, possibly a listing fee as well that may or may not be refunded when your item sells, to help discourage frivolous or outrageous listing (this one is tricky; if you go too far, it will discourage usage overall... but if you don't go far enough, the market is flooded with junk).

I don't see an issue with the AH being flooded with junk. You can just ignore it, you're usually looking for something specific anyway, right? Listing fees just discourage market liquidity, I see no real way in which the community could benefit from them.

ossuary
05-02-2014, 09:06 AM
Like I said, it's a slippery slope. It does run a medium to high risk of doing as you said, but if done right, they can also help to prevent scammer pricing of junk cards, and decreased clutter can (again, CAN) help to improve the perception of the AH's quality. Even though you're able to "just ignore it," it still makes a bad impression when you're inundated with junk and ripoffs every time you open the AH.

There are other ways to accomplish this as well (like having good trending / value tools baked right into the interface, and really good and robust search and filter tools), but it's an option that's available and is worth investigating. I can't tell you one way or the other whether having those fees is good for the game or not, because it's highly subjective. But economically speaking, they have merit if handled properly, or can be harmful if handled improperly... like most options. :)

LLCoolDave
05-02-2014, 09:18 AM
The thing is, for the AH there's literally no reason not to filter by lowest price first unless you are looking for specific double backs. There's absolutely no reason to prefer one seller to another, they are all entirely identical to you as a buyer. Having overpriced entries at the end of the list shouldn't have much of an influence on people outside of making them feel like they got a better deal. On the other hand, any kind of listing fee discourages people from throwing up their spare commons/uncommons which has a real noticeable affect on the economy and the usage of the AH.

Yoss
05-02-2014, 09:23 AM
I agree that listing fees are a bad idea. There's a reason eBay ditched them and put all their fees on the sale. Market liquidity (lots and lots of listings) is a very very good thing for everyone. There is no such thing as AH spam. You filter by price (or whatever other feature you care about) and then just look at the best 10 or so to make your trade. The fact that there are 10,000 other offers for that same commodity is irrelevant (until those top 10 sell and then it becomes the next top 10, and the next, and ...).

Saeijou
05-02-2014, 09:26 AM
If there would be a way to avoid grey markets, companys like blizzard or bioware would do something against them.
Sadly I think there is just the way to ban people and hope that these bans scare all other people to use a grey market.

Disordia
05-02-2014, 09:28 AM
If there would be a way to avoid grey markets, companys like blizzard or bioware would do something against them.
Sadly I think there is just the way to ban people and hope that these bans scare all other people to use a grey market.

Ban people for using the in game ah...that's a bold move, Cotton.

blakegrandon
05-02-2014, 09:41 AM
I agree that listing fees are a bad idea. There's a reason eBay ditched them and put all their fees on the sale. Market liquidity (lots and lots of listings) is a very very good thing for everyone. There is no such thing as AH spam. You filter by price (or whatever other feature you care about) and then just look at the best 10 or so to make your trade. The fact that there are 10,000 other offers for that same commodity is irrelevant (until those top 10 sell and then it becomes the next top 10, and the next, and ...).

I hope that Cryptozoic does not do an AH like ebay or WoW. A bid/ask system is ideal because the cards are not "that" unique to require each listing to be individualized.

The most ideal market to keep true card value would be one where the buyer puts in a bid for X and the sellers decide whether they want to sell at X.

RobHaven
05-02-2014, 09:50 AM
I hope that Cryptozoic does not do an AH like ebay or WoW. A bid/ask system is ideal because the cards are not "that" unique to require each listing to be individualized.

yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
I'm super pumped to have this conversation again!

Bells
05-02-2014, 09:52 AM
A grey market is a market that does what a regular market does except at a lower price. Consumers want a grey market because it forces the prices of the regular market to be more reasonable, at least in theory.


On that, you mean Auction House vs Grey Market right? Both player defined values. i expect to see a singles market out there... but i do have to wonder the actual need of a grey market to keep the prices of the AH down...

I mean ,lets consider the grey market as a 3rd party regulator of the price in the regular market... it exists as direct competition, so the regular market needs to keep it's prices down in order to gather interest and attention... right?

Well... right now it's not regulating anything. We don't have an auction house... so, isn't the opposite happening? Aren't people going to look for the grey market in order to see the pricing range and use that as base to make their pricing in the Auction House? That would make Grey Market operators have to drive their price down (or assure higher demand on sought after cards) to be ''in control'' of the market...

Honestly, i don't mind putting up with slightly higher prices in the AH as long as i know the higher price point means a cut for Crypt... i wouldn't want to undermine revenue for the game. Because that's where we get features from...


i mean, let's be reasonable here too... i'm talking about taking money from Crypt via the grey market, but how much goes IN potentially via Auction House my not be world changing 'yknow...

Let's put some numbers together... completely anecdotal numbers, for illustration purpose only. ANd let's make them big and visible to draw the point. I'm working with broad terms here, so work with me.

Let's say you sell something in the auction house in a way that you get $1 and Crypt gets 30% on top of that.

So... that's a $1,30 transaction.

Now, let's say that in the run of 30 days, you get 20k transactions like that. Consider that a single player that use the AH is likely to do multiple transactions, many will be in higher value, and we are drawing from a portion of the PvP crowd. so 20k is not absurd.

So, in 30 days, running $1 transactions with a 30% markup at 20k times, the player base shifted around $20.000 among themselves and that generated 6k For HEX.

If you move to the grey market, that $1.30 transaction in this scenario would cost you $1 since it doesnt have the Crypt markup price (although in all reality, it would still be $1.15 more likely... because it can) the shifting around of currency is pretty much the same... except Crypt doesn't benefit from it.

So, that's $6000 that Hex didn't earn in this scenario. $6k a month can do some really nice things for the game...

So, what i question is this... is this in the benefit of the community?

Mind you that this same $6000 could show up somewhere else... you CAN argue that buying cheaper on the grey market will create a broader competitive base, which in turn would make drafts and tournaments rise, making up for the lost revenue at the AH... that argument CAN exist... i don't know if it's valid, but you can make it.

So, as a player wanting the success of the game and the company behind it, i need to pose myself in this. If i want to create incentive for a better community and a better gameplay scenario, where do i out my money? Because, yeah... sure... the grey market will be there. But's size and relevance are determined by us and where we put our money... and if we ALREADY have a grey market and the auction house is coming... it's not too soon to talk about this.

Niedar
05-02-2014, 09:55 AM
Im never going to use an AH with a 30% cut and no one else would either. You charge a reasonable fee for using the AH, not an unreasonable one. Then people will use the AH because it is more convenient and the fee is not great enough to make them find other methods.

ossuary
05-02-2014, 09:58 AM
bwahahahah yes, BAS argument time again. :)

FYI, we're getting a "traditional" auction house for now, though Chark and a couple of others have from CZE openly admitted that a Bid-Ask System would be better overall and they would like to look into doing it that way at some point. So there's not much point in having this discussion right now (not that I don't LOVE arguing about TAH vs BAS). :)

Lawlschool
05-02-2014, 10:26 AM
Bells, I don't think you quite understand how the AH fee works. CZE isn't making any money off of AH transactions, at least not directly. The 5% fee on a sale is just a Plat sink to help keep inflation down. CZE isn't taking that cut and turning it in to cash (how could they?). Even indirectly I don't think the fee makes much difference to CZE's profits, since the people who "lose" Plat on the transactions are the buyers, and they don't really need to consider the fee. People are going to buy Plat from CZE independent of the fees since they'll use Plat to buy cards / packs / tourney fees.

You've also got the mark-ups backwards, since selling to a Grey Market is going to have a greater "mark-up" than selling on the AH, as the Grey Market buyers need to factor in resale. Afaik Grey Market stores like HTCGP aren't going to act as an AH for anyone looking to sell cards, so you'll have to sell at a lower price to them than you would by selling directly on the AH (the advantage with Grey Market transactions is that you can likely get real currency for your cards instead of in-game currency).

The way the Grey Market "takes" money away from CZE is by cutting out the Plat middleman. Say you have 0 Plat, and want to get an Angel of Dawn. You could go to the Grey Market and spend $9, or you could buy it off the AH for 1000p (made up numbers, obviously). If you buy it from the Grey Market, that's $10 worth of Plat you didn't buy from CZE to get it off the AH. But I don't think CZE cares that much, because someone already bought the Plat from them to get the booster that had the Angel in it in the first place. CZE is likely making most of its money off of people buying Plat for boosters and tourney fees, people buying plat to buy from the AH is just icing on the cake (and keep in mind that any Plat bought for that reason is just going to circulate around until it's used up on boosters, tourneys, or AH fees).

LLCoolDave
05-02-2014, 10:39 AM
Bells, I don't think you quite understand how the AH fee works. CZE isn't making any money off of AH transactions, at least not directly. The 5% fee on a sale is just a Plat sink to help keep inflation down. CZE isn't taking that cut and turning it in to cash (how could they?).

Platinum being taken out of the economy means it has to be replaced at some point when people want to use it for store purchases/tournament entries. The amount people hold in reserve for their personal purposes/market liquidity doesn't meaningfully change when an AH transaction completes, but the total amount of platinum in the economy is decreased by the AH fee. CZE is still making a very real profit on these transactions. If somebody buys platinum for the purpose of buying cards on the AH that platinum (minus fees) then ends up as a surplus elsewhere, meaning somebody else somewhere will not have to purchase new platinum from CZE when he would have had to without the transaction(s) leading up to that point, so it doesn't really affect the amount of platinum they sell in a sustainable fashion.

Similarly, a card being sold on the grey market only means that they lose out on the transaction fees. Ready access to real money interactions means people need to hold less platinum in the ingame economy for liquidity, but that just lowers a constant, one time platinum purchase and has very little influence on the revenue stream. Being able to cash out in a reasonable fashion might even have a positive influence on tournament attendance to counteract this.

Rapkannibale
05-02-2014, 01:54 PM
People being able to make money from these types of games is a big part of why they are successful. Many people rationalise large spending in games like Magic because they can sell some of their collection and make some money back. I think grey market or secondary markets are good for the health of the game. Of course there are downsides as some of you here have mentioned but overall I think the benefits outweight the downsides.

Svenn
05-02-2014, 03:17 PM
People being able to make money from these types of games is a big part of why they are successful. Many people rationalise large spending in games like Magic because they can sell some of their collection and make some money back. I think grey market or secondary markets are good for the health of the game. Of course there are downsides as some of you here have mentioned but overall I think the benefits outweight the downsides.
This is actually one of the reasons I backed Hex. I was assuming (well, more like hoping for the possibility) that since it's a TCG I would be able to "cash out" if I ever wanted to.

If cards have real value outside of the game that means they are more valuable in general and I think people will be willing to put more money into the system. That's how I came to spend so much money already.

Deathfog
05-02-2014, 07:53 PM
Long term, I expect grey market plat/gold traders or converters to be more significant than actual card shops. So long as the game has a functional AH with 5-10% house cut on all trades, it'll just be easier for people to buy or sell platinum directly.

Any store that can safely offer even 10% off the house price for platinum would be useful, or that'll buy it for at least 80%.

whythelastman
05-02-2014, 09:12 PM
Like Svenn, the ability to cash out is a big reason why I jumped on the HEX train. I actually cashed out of all my physical TCG collections many years ago, but the chance to get in early on a game with as much potential as HEX was something I did not want to pass up and regret.

sukebe
05-03-2014, 02:24 PM
Yes, but why bother selling cards? Why not just sell cards on the AH and then deal with buying/selling platinum? I can definitely see room for second hand platinum traders, and having those attached to a team of pro players can help establish the necessary trust for them.

This is what I believe the grey market will be. While I wouldn't bother buying cards from anywhere but the in game AH, there may be a time when I would want to sell my platinum to someone for real cash. From what I understand CZE actually wanted something like this in hex (as well as cash prizes for big events) but cannot currently allow it due to legal issues.

People will want Platinum for less that 100 for $1, and people will sell it for less than that in order to get real money out of Hex. I am sure there will be several safe sites that will let you do this (and many, many more that are not safe).

My hope is that platinum will be able to be sent via the mail system (we already know cards and items will eventually be able to be sent through the mail). This seems like the easiest, safest way to transfer plat that has been purchased on external sites. The reason for this is that the only account info you would need to provide these sites is your keep name and server.

thats my 2c anyway :-)