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DanTheMeek
05-03-2014, 09:28 PM
So lately it seems like I'm behind on Hex news so if crafting was completely explained while my head was turned, I'd love if some one linked me, but as far as I know we currently know next to nothing about crafting in Hex. What we do know (or at least what I know from interviews Corey has talked about them that I saw) is that at least some if not all of crafting will involve creating alternate art versions of cards, and will require not only the crafting materials, but a crafting recipe. So with those two minor pieces of information, I thought it might be fun to theorize how crafting might work. I'm going to focus purely on PvP because we know so little about PvE at this point (again unless more was revealed while I was foolishly blinking) but I think if crafting is done right, it could be another tool, beyond the wheel of fate, to help bridge PvP and PvE together.

First, a ground rule I think should be in place that for an alternate art card of a PvP card, at least one crafting material in the recipe must be only obtainable from disenchanting/salvaging a card of rarity equal to the card's rarity which you're making an alternate art of. In this way crafting will never put more cards of a certain rarity into the game then were there before the craft, and in many cases will actually decrease the number, actually improving the value of the cards destroyed to make materials by virtue of making them more scarce. This will help the economic integrity of PvP cards, and help to mitigate some of the inherent value loss that will likely effect the original art version of any card they make available and alternate art version.

Second, and this is significantly less important, but I think it would be beneficial to make alternate art cards (any card of rarity "purple") non-crushable. I don't think its unreasonable to make such a restriction on these cards, but it will also help reduce confusion with the first rule since the "rarity" of an alternate art card is not always readily apparent (again due to the fact that it is shown as purple instead of a standard rarity color).

So next, how do we get PvP card recipes. I'd like to see them given in 3 ways.
1) First, via PvE. Because of our first rule, these extremely rare drops don't let a free to play PvE player to get PvP cards with out spending (or trading with some one who did spend), but they DO give them a very desirable commodity for PvP players. Aside from just the cool factor of having a unique art version of a card, if the recipe is for a card that's desirable in PvP, this will make content that gives these recipes attractive to PvP players, potentially getting them to give PvE a chance, and give PvE players something truly valuable they can turn into plat with the right PvP buyer.
2) Second, via Chest Rewards. So my current understanding is that the wheel of fate and chests can give you alternate art cards, and I'm cool with that, more cards for me for free is rarely a bad thing in my book, but perhaps, if not just in addition to but maybe even in place of, these alternate art cards, they gave recipes, they can give you something much more unique then just another card. Depending on whether or not a recipe is a one time use or something you keep forever, recipes could actually be even more valuable then just getting the card as a single recipe could turn all your un-sellable trash cards into multiple copies of a card people actually want.
3) Third, tournament prizes. Consider the following: There's a huge special event Hex tournament with 300+ entrants. The top 8 all come away with a special alternate art version of a card that's never had an alternate art version before, but the guy or girl who takes first place, she also gets something more, she gets a recipe to create as many of these cards as she wants. Now again, its not with out cost, at minimum she's destroying a card of the same rarity as the card she's making, and the costs will probably be much greater then just that, but now she's got the market cornered on this alternate art card. She can choose to create and sell one once a week to keep scarcity high, or make a bunch at once, or even sell the recipe herself. Regardless, it would be one heck of a cool prize for the winner with out even putting a single new PvP card into the economy nor giving the winner any sort of competitive edge, since again, the recipe is for an alternate art of a card anyone can get normally. Now if recipes are a 1 time thing obviously this "prize" makes less sense, but even then its stilll an extra unique prize you can give out with out actually putting anymore PvP cards into the economy which I think is always a good thing.

So yeah, just some thoughts on crafting, I won't go into any more of my thoughts yet incase we already have more details on crafting I just don't know about, but assuming there are no more details, I'd love to hear other peoples thoughts on how they'd like to see crafting done... or how they don't want it done as well.

mach
05-03-2014, 09:36 PM
First, a ground rule I think should be in place that for an alternate art card of a PvP card, at least one crafting material in the recipe must be only obtainable from disenchanting/salvaging a card of rarity equal to the card's rarity which you're making an alternate art of. In this way crafting will never put more cards of a certain rarity into the game then were there before the craft, and in many cases will actually decrease the number, actually improving the value of the cards destroyed to make materials by virtue of making them more scarce. This will help the economic integrity of PvP cards, and help to mitigate some of the inherent value loss that will likely effect the original art version of any card they make available and alternate art version.

There's going to be massive variation in the values of cards at each rarity. So I don't think you have it quite right. You're going to run into problems if you can salvage 5 penny rares and use the resulting mats to make a $10 rare, which would be acceptable by your standard, as you'd be reducing the number of rares by 4.

DanTheMeek
05-03-2014, 09:49 PM
There's going to be massive variation in the values of cards at each rarity. So I don't think you have it quite right. You're going to run into problems if you can salvage 5 penny rares and use the resulting mats to make a $10 rare, which would be acceptable by your standard, as you'd be reducing the number of rares by 4.

This is true... and also I kind of feel the point of crafting, taking something of little value and turning it into something that has value. Don't forget though that by making 5 penny rares capable of becoming a 10 dollar rare, you've just boosted their value from a penny to 2 dollars (2 x 5 = 10), so while it will likely reduce the value of the 10 dollar rare some, you've just dramatically increased the value of other cards in your collection. On top of that, for cards that people consistently choose to disenchant, they will inherently become more scarce, and if it happens enough, and a new set suddenly gives new life to said old card we once though useless and crushed the heck out of, suddenly that old penny rare that would have seen only a minor bump in value suddenly sees a HUGE bump in value because people just don't have that many of them anymore.

But yeah, one of the reasons I didn't give any specific examples of recipes is because how much you should have to give up is not easy to pin down, I just wanted a "minimum" rule that says that you can always require more of players, but never less. Whether or not there should be other minimum rules on top of that is up to debate, its just the point where I felt the line should be drawn in the sand for how cheap crafting could be.

sukebe
05-04-2014, 12:24 AM
I think it would be best, and least disruptive to the economy, to require AA crafting to use up a normal version of the card to be altered. This would still add value to the card (usually) but would not disrupt the quantities of said card available for sale.

Want that awesome AA Vampire King? You buy/trade for a normal vampire king for $10, use it and the other ingredients to upgrade it to new art. This new version sells for $15-$20. Prices will vary greatly but you get the idea :-)

BossHoss
05-04-2014, 07:23 AM
I think it would be best, and least disruptive to the economy, to require AA crafting to use up a normal version of the card to be altered. This would still add value to the card (usually) but would not disrupt the quantities of said card available for sale.

Want that awesome AA Vampire King? You buy/trade for a normal vampire king for $10, use it and the other ingredients to upgrade it to new art. This new version sells for $15-$20. Prices will vary greatly but you get the idea :-)

This. Was just about to comment along the same lines. Picture the pack opening and replace Kismet with an empty socket. I could see "socketing" the card you want altered, place the crafting recipe into the cauldron on top (have the crafting mat contain empty sockets also and to validate it you socket all necessary materials into it) and pay your gold in the bottom like the wheels of fate and watch the magic transformation of your card. I would have lots of fun with this as a collector trying to complete "mini collections" activating crafting mats.

Lawlschool
05-04-2014, 09:00 AM
Crafting's one of my favorite things to do in MMOs, so I'm pretty excited about finding out more about Hex's system, and even more excited about speculation. Right now, I think all we know for sure is that 1) crafting exists, 2) you get materials (primarily? exclusively?) from breaking down cards. We also know, as Dan points out, that you can make AA cards, and that (at least some) recipes will be random drops. I think it's also been hinted at that you can craft consumables, and I think it's safe to assume you can craft PvE equipment.

What's totally unknown though, is how crafting classes will work, or if we'll even have crafting classes. It's probably best if there are classes (like cardsmith, weaponsmith, armorsmith, potionmaster, etc.) since having everyone be able to craft everything won't make for a robust crafting economy. I'm not sure how they'll limit crafting classes though, given the Keep system. Other MMOs do it by limiting you to a few classes per character, so in order to get max level crafting in all classes you have to level up quite a few characters. It doesn't seem like Hex is going to have this sort of system; "characters" are essentially mercenaries that get sent out from your central Keep. They could force us to only pick two or three crafting specialties for our Keep, meaning to get all crafting skills you'd need multiple accounts, but this sounds kinda shitty. Alternately, Keeps could have access to all skills and it could just be exceedingly time consuming and expensive to level up more than a few while playing through the game (the other skills could be leveled eventually, if you were willing to put in the time/money).

Something I think would be interesting is instead of splitting crafting skills in to traditional armor / weapons / potions / etc, you could split skills based on Shards. For example, instead of having your Keep specialize in crafting armor for all shards, you'd have your Keep specialize in crafting all things Blood. You'd break down Blood cards for Blood materials to make Blood-related cards / equipment / potions, etc.

So that's my speculation about crafting. I like the idea of having AA PvP cards be crafted through random recipe drops, and require a component to be the normal art version of the card. The random drops help ensure the rarity of AA cards, and having the normal card be a component ensures that AA cards will always be worth more than their normal version.

Svenn
05-04-2014, 09:48 AM
Isn't crafting supposed to be PvE only? I don't think you're able to craft PvP cards.

From Kickstarter:

And overnight, we passed the 440K tier so now we'll have a crafting system at launch. Cards that you have too many of or don't have a use for can be broken down into crafting materials, which can then be used to make cards exclusive to the crafting system for use in the PVE campaign. We'll have more specifics on the Crafting System as we get closer to the PVE launch.

hex_colin
05-04-2014, 10:14 AM
Isn't crafting supposed to be PvE only? I don't think you're able to craft PvP cards.

From Kickstarter:

I think folks are expecting that they'll have the HS model - I don't expect that to be the case.

Also, I can't see any reason for them to ever let us craft AA cards - that destroys the value/collectibility of them. There's a big difference between putting a system in place that allows us to create playable cards (for whatever subset of content CZE decides on) versus being able to create any card we've seen (e.g. the AA cards).

DanTheMeek
05-04-2014, 10:26 AM
About to head out so gonna try to be less verbose then usual but just wanted to note that I would agree with the stipulation that any Alternate Art card, instead of just requiring materials from cards of the same rarity, require the original card itself be given up in addition to crafting mats. I think that way makes the most sense.

The big thing for me is I'd love if crafting was able to make what in another game would have been penny rares more valuable then a penny in hex because no card can ever be worth less then the value of the mats it can produce. For that to happen though mats need to actually be valuable, which means they need to be used to make something people really want.

Also, while its true that the initial impression I got was also that crafting was for PvE, I want to say it was in a recent stream interview that Corey gave an example of crafting involving finding a recipe for an alternate art burn which suggested they are looking at crafting being a part of PvP as well and being a means of generating alternate art cards of pvp cards. That doesn't mean thats all crafting will be used for, just that it strongly suggested a connection to pvp and alternate art cards, as well as confirmed the existence of chase-able recipes to perform crafting.

Lawlschool
05-04-2014, 10:52 AM
Also, I can['t] see any reason for them to ever let us craft AA cards - that destroys the value/collectibility of them. There's a big difference between putting a system in place that allows us to create playable cards (for whatever subset of content CZE decides on) versus being able to create any card we've seen (e.g. the AA cards).

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with being able to craft AA cards. The collectability / value of AA cards is going to be directly tied to their rarity. For example, the Windborn Acolyte AA card is likely going to be pretty common and not very valuable, since it rolls off of common chests. On the flip side, if you had an AA legendary that was only obtainable through a raid-level recipe drop that required both the original card and more raid-level crafting materials, that thing would be quite collectible and quite valuable.

I agree that being able to craft any and all PvP AA cards could be problematic, but I don't think there's a real problem with some AA PvP cards being craftable. Only real requirement is that the AA card uses up a normal card, that way you're never creating cards from thin air.

hex_colin
05-04-2014, 11:17 AM
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with being able to craft AA cards. The collectability / value of AA cards is going to be directly tied to their rarity. For example, the Windborn Acolyte AA card is likely going to be pretty common and not very valuable, since it rolls off of common chests. On the flip side, if you had an AA legendary that was only obtainable through a raid-level recipe drop that required both the original card and more raid-level crafting materials, that thing would be quite collectible and quite valuable.

I agree that being able to craft any and all PvP AA cards could be problematic, but I don't think there's a real problem with some AA PvP cards being craftable. Only real requirement is that the AA card uses up a normal card, that way you're never creating cards from thin air.

Agreed - there could/should definitely be AA cards from crafting. I'm good with those. I was talking about being able to craft AA cards that are obtained by other means (KS, WoF/Chests, Holidays/Cons, etc.). I should have been more specific.

sukebe
05-04-2014, 04:01 PM
Agreed - there could/should definitely be AA cards from crafting. I'm good with those. I was talking about being able to craft AA cards that are obtained by other means (KS, WoF/Chests, Holidays/Cons, etc.). I should have been more specific.

I imagine this is how it will be. I would be surprised if they let us craft AA cards from events/giveaways (and a disappointed as well). I would bet money that any AA we can craft will only be obtainable by crafting.

mach
05-04-2014, 04:33 PM
The big thing for me is I'd love if crafting was able to make what in another game would have been penny rares more valuable then a penny in hex because no card can ever be worth less then the value of the mats it can produce. For that to happen though mats need to actually be valuable, which means they need to be used to make something people really want.


This sounds great but might actually be a bad thing.

People tolerate rare drafting because it doesn't happen that much. In a typical draft, odds are only 2-3 cards will be worth rare drafting. If you even out the value of rares, people might start autopicking any rare. I think this would have a detrimental effect on draft as a format.

Idus
05-04-2014, 07:07 PM
Ahh my favourite subject, crafting :)

Without more information of how materials work however, its hard to assume anything. Cory did say in some early interviews that the ability to get PvP cards from PvE would be "very limited". Given we've not heard much since, the pendulum could have swung either way here from "never" to "not so limited". Most of Dan's ideas seem fine to me, but we just don't know.

One of my big questions is, how much variety can the crafting system provide if there are only 12 different materials, as shown in the Kickstarter, as rewards for dungeon crawler and above? That few materials would suggest that what is received from disenchanting will be rather generic, with maybe just quantities received varying, but I'm hopefully there is more to it than there seems.

Some factors I think will affect what crafting can do include :-

Recipe Usage

I think one of the important things to keep crafting valuable, is to make recipes - single or (X) uses only. Most of the time they should not be permanent. Being (for example) single use and difficult to obtain, means they can be more generous with what a recipe creates, as it may end up being at the extreme only 1 additional copy of a card that enters the game, so will not unbalance the economy/gear pool, and also provide that which TCG players love, uniqueness.

Several variants on this could be :-

1) Have a permanent recipe that is used to craft a base-level item, which is then consumed in other single-use recipes as part of a different item. This adds complexity to the crafting system, by making it multi-component, providing a diverse recipe system without needing a diverse material system, and provides more items and price levels for the market.

2) Have a master copy recipe that is very difficult to obtain, which can only be used to craft single-use versions of that recipe which are used to make the actual item. This provides a 2-tier crafting system, giving high value to the Master, and lesser value to the single-use recipes, providing more challenge and variety to the system, and the chance to become specialist merchants to other crafters if you are the one to obtain the master, which should be a mark of achievement

3) Rent-a-Recipe. Have it time limited from NPC's, probably the void society. Maybe in conjunction with a daily quest "Bring to us a staff of sparkles, 3 rare materials and 50,000 gold, and we will loan you the recipe for potion-of-troop-lifegain for 6 hours". Quests, NPC vendors, perhaps even a Mercenary power to craft something. The avenue for recipe innovation is large.

Material Availability

As mentioned above, we've been shown 12 materials - 4 purple, 3 blue (1 dark, 2 light?), 2 green, 2 yellow and 1 red. Whether the colours are significant or not I don't know, but it could be a rarity system, or just random.

The question remains, which types and quantities do you get from PvP cards vs PvE cards? Simplest is random within rarity range, and equal for PvP & PvE. A differentiator might be rarer or more quantity from PvP cards, but that may bring up arguments of forcing PvE players to buy PvP cards, which is probably not what Crypto wants.

The limited number of materials though, to me would suggest that recipes need to be a big part of the variety in what can be crafted, rather than the materials themselves, which to me seem to indicate more of a basic resource system with little variety except rarity, in the materials themselves. So I would think that (for example) the red material would come from disenchanting legendaries, either PvE or PvP, with equal, random chances of 0 or more being produced. I doubt very much that the quantities or chances would depend on which Legendary it is, as it's not Crypto who will be pricing, Vampire King as more valuable than say Zoltog, although as mentioned by others, if they felt the perceived values of Legendaries needed to be evened out, it'd be a neat way to do it.

I know the focus of the thread is on Alternate Art cards, and for PvE this might be big, but given Cory's previous statements, I think it'd be very limited for PvP. This does not take anything away from the crafting system though. The opportunity to make crafting a valuable part of the Hex experience for creating exclusive content is huge. But with what little we know now, it's pure navel gazing as to how little or large an impact on the game it will have. My hope is large, but that remains to be seen.

sukebe
05-04-2014, 07:39 PM
I am not a fan of single use recipes at all. I would rather mats/recipes be difficult/expensive to obtain. Low drop rates will make the recipe plenty rare for a long time. By the time a recipe becomes at all common, a new expansion should be out that introduces even more of them.

Idus
05-04-2014, 08:12 PM
I am not a fan of single use recipes at all. I would rather mats/recipes be difficult/expensive to obtain. Low drop rates will make the recipe plenty rare for a long time. By the time a recipe becomes at all common, a new expansion should be out that introduces even more of them.

To be honest, I don't like single-use stuff either, but I think it may be a necessity to keep the crafting community alive. The idea of finishing a hard dungeon, to get a unique recipe, that i can only make 1 (or even maybe 10 or 20 of) hurts, but think how much extra value it gives to the final product, compared to whether you can just make an endless supply. TCG's are all about collecting, more so than many MMO's, so I think forced scarcity is important.

Possibly cycling sets may solve the issue, but as with any MMO, if something is an endless supply, it eventually becomes worthless, Just as you need gold sinks to keep the game viable, you also need gear sinks.

Most MMO's use a durability system to handle this for gear. When it comes to crafting, systems like EVE (one of the best ever crafting systems in my opinion) are similar to what I've described, where master Blueprints are hugely expensive and rare so only corps can afford them (which I don't like forcing you into a guild to participate in crafting) and blueprint copies are the way the general public gets gold of them.

Starwars Galaxy, which also had a great crafting system, handled scarcity through professions/skill trees and time syncs with it's harvesting components. The addition of quality in SWG was also a huge boost to creating master craftsmen who could run shops that people would flock to, as the makers mark meant something to the quality of your good. I'm not sure how WoW works, but I think it is similar.

I'm not in favour of skill specialisation in Hex, as I think the need to have access to all gear across all shards is important to allow people to play the decks they want to play, so another system is needed to stop people being jack-of-all-trades. Guildwars 2 was a horrible example of a crafting system, as I've said in other threads, because it made becoming a master of every crafting discipline a simple matter of unlocking recipes by grinding ingredients into components, from basic to advanced, with a couple of hours effort. No one needed anyone else, and the things being crafted became worth less than the materials to create them, because everyone was grinding hundreds of them to level up.

I dearly hope we don't have a crafting system like this, although one of my suggestions was to use the sub-component system, but that worked well in SWG, so it's a matter of balancing the resources available, the components needed, and the value of the final result. I think putting limits on recipe usage may be one of the ways to help balance this all out.

mach
05-04-2014, 09:01 PM
To be honest, I don't like single-use stuff either, but I think it may be a necessity to keep the crafting community alive. The idea of finishing a hard dungeon, to get a unique recipe, that i can only make 1 (or even maybe 10 or 20 of) hurts, but think how much extra value it gives to the final product, compared to whether you can just make an endless supply. TCG's are all about collecting, more so than many MMO's, so I think forced scarcity is important.


If you can only use it once, I don't think it's really accurate to call it crafting. It's just an item which requires some other items to be usable.

ronwac
05-04-2014, 09:14 PM
Cory mentioned from a narrative perspective that the Void Society is tied in with crafting... so maybe instead of the wheels of fate we'll have to pray to whatever is munching on Eldritch Dreamer's head. I'm also curious is some of the cards that had their art changed through Alpha (Baby Yeti, Soul Marble) will have their previous version available through crafting or chest opening this way.

halfwing
05-04-2014, 09:18 PM
Im willing to bet (and i certainly hope) that pvp cards are craftable, but only with rare/legendary recipes, and only the common staples, but that those ones are craftable without needing to break down pvp cards. Any PvP cards outside of common staples shouldnt be craftable, except as a direct upgrade to that card (IE: pack raptor alt art recipe would be 1x Pack Raptor, and then a bunch of mats)


Craftable Equipment should require the mats from the card it is equipment for, but that card shouldnt be the only source of those mats. Lets say you have six Charge Bot, and want to make one of their equipments. Its equipment would require (for example) Shard Dust to craft, which Charge Bot gives when its crushed. However, Shard Dust can also be gained from Hex Engine, Boulder Brute, Howling Brave, Ruby Clarity, or any number of other cards.


I would also love to see some card that can ONLY be crafted. Like an overcosted artifact troop with multiple instances of Socketable. Or some card with higher thresholds then their actual cost (0 or 1 cost, 5 threshold actions could be a lot of fun.) There is a lot of neat design space possible that really doesnt fit that well into a set/dungeon, and crafting would be a great place to explore that.

sukebe
05-04-2014, 09:20 PM
If you can only use it once, I don't think it's really accurate to call it crafting. It's just an item which requires some other items to be usable.

I agree with this. It just feel like crafting if I do not actually learn the recipe. I am fine with very low drop rates for some recipes and/or lots of work to get to the point that I can use the recipe.

Personally I would love to see an entire crafting class dedicated to crafting as I feel that something should be sacrificed to reach the highest levels of crafting. I do not know how well that would work in game like Hex though since we know so little at the moment. If crafting is extremely limited in scope this obviously would not work. From we understand about Hex right now I think this is just a pipe dream :-)

Also, to those who mentioned that crafting could not make pvp cards, I am fairly sure they said this would be very limited, not impossible. Not to mention that if you take my idea of using up 1 copy of the base card you are not really "creating" a pvp card, just modifying it to have a new artwork. (as you end up with the same number of copies of that card as you started with)

Edit: I like most of your thoughts on this Halfwing as they mostly match with my own :-) However, I think that equipment should take a combination of the mats gained from the card they go to as well as cards of the equipment's rarity. So to take your example further, that charge bot equipment is uncommon and would therefore take both shard dust (from commons) and Greater Shard Dust (from uncommons).

Idus
05-04-2014, 11:08 PM
I would also love to see some card that can ONLY be crafted.

Yes, me too. If all crafted cards can also be obtained from dungeons, then the value of crafting is greatly diminished, unless it is MUCH easier to craft it than farm it.

I'm wondering though if they might focus recipes more on the consumables that Cory keeps mentioning. This is somewhat of a compromise of providing never-ending recipes, if they are primarily used to make consumables, as there is a constant demand and sink at the same time.

The other thing to think of recipes for, is the add-on components for keeps that were hinted at a long time ago. Whether these might be the consumables, such as booby traps, maybe ammunition for things such as arrow traps etc. This is pure speculation though.

As for single-use not being crafting, I can see your point of view in that it means you have not "learnt" anything, but there would still be the hunt for materials etc, and having to produce the final product, so it still has a crafting feel to me. Maybe it makes you more of a gatherer though, than a crafter.

bootlace
05-05-2014, 05:49 AM
I'm a pretty big fan of the Diablo loot and crafting system so my ideas will be based on that:

-Dungeon bosses have a chance to drop a legendary rarity crafting material that is needed in all the high quality crafts.
-PVP cards can only be upgraded to AA with original card + some rare mats as others have mentioned.
-Rare/Legendary craftable PVE equipment has ranges it can roll on a specific stat or has different bonuses it can give to a specific card that is picked at random. This encourages crafting many and many different times to get the ideal roll you're looking for. Also makes checking/selling/buying on AH more interesting.
-Recipes unlocked for equipment should be rare but permanent - remember the time cycle between sets will not be long so there's always going to be new things to chase and craft.
-Certain PVE cards can only be crafted and should be narrowly designed and dropped in a way to specifically help in upcoming encounters along the PVE progression path.
-Crafting consumables makes alot of sense.
-Perhaps combining 4 copies of a certain card to make 1 uber (perhaps just AA) version of the card sounds interesting and would help the whole economy. (really a fan of taking cards away from the economy to maintain a certain level of rarity and not everyone's collection having 124 Burn spells for example. There could even be some speculation threads discussing whether certain cards are going extinct :D )
-Combining X different rares to create a legendary could be amazing. Imagine a recipe requiring you to get certain cards from sets that go wayyy back. This would boost the collectability of every card involved and would keep a busy and active trading and AH system. It would almost be like a quest you need to complete, and would make acquiring that card really fun and fulfilling.


I think by establishing big costs and adding some RNG would go a long way to deepen the system and make everything more special and rare.

mach
05-05-2014, 06:53 AM
To give the feel of actually assembling a card, here's how I'd like crafting to work. Let's say I want to craft an Angel of Dawn. It would require the following components.

"Angel of Dawn" nameplate - see below
"5" cost orb - obtained by destroying cards which cost 5
"D" threshold orb - obtained by destroying cards which have threshold of 1 diamond.
"Troop" typeplate - obtained by destroying troops
"4/4" stats orb - obtained by destroying 4/4 troops
"L1" expansion symbol orb - obtained by destroying set 1 legendaries
(Possibly) an extra thing just for legendaries - maybe artist?

Destroying a card will give you at least 1 and maybe more of the components which are used to make it. Components are not set-specific, with the exception of the expansion symbol orb.

In this model, you don't actually need recipes for each card. You just need to gather the appropriate components and stick them in the crafting interface. CZE can regulate crafting by managing how the first ingredient (the nameplate) is acquired. Common and uncommon nameplates may be sold for gold, while legendary ones may be rewards for scheduled tournaments, thus limiting the supply to a certain number per week.

halfwing
05-05-2014, 07:38 AM
A thought i had, that i would love to see regarding consumables. I was originally thinking they would be like typical MMO cashshop consumables, increasing item drop rates, exp, or gold drops. I wasnt very excited about it, but then came up with the following idea, which i would LOVE to see. Consider the following card:

Void Shard
1/1 Basic Resource
No threshold. Don't gain a charge.

Mediocre card all around right? Strictly worse then any other basic resource! And would suck to draw, even in an artifact deck. It can be included in any number in a deck, but dont actually WANT them in your deck. Might need some changes though (change it to 0/1 and gain a charge maybe?)

The point of it is to use this card as a "blank card" template. All cards should require a base card to "build onto", and Void Shard acts as the base card for 'original' cards, which don't exist outside of crafting. All consumables would be cards, and use either Void Shard, or a 'lower tier' consumable as a base. Void Shards can be crafted by just combining any 3 materials, so they will be rather plentiful.

Then, all consumables are artifacts (though they may summon troops, or cast actions, or something else), and act like Sappers Charge or Bottled Vitae, where you have to pay to activate them. Except instead of sacrificing them, you return them to you hand and irreversibly turn them back into a Void Shard. So it becomes a "blank" card in your deck for the rest of the dungeon, but can still be crafted back into new consumables.

Spectral Lotus already acts as a GREAT example of consumables on the game, why NOT build up on the template it provided?

sukebe
05-05-2014, 05:55 PM
To give the feel of actually assembling a card, here's how I'd like crafting to work. Let's say I want to craft an Angel of Dawn. It would require the following components.

"Angel of Dawn" nameplate - see below
"5" cost orb - obtained by destroying cards which cost 5
"D" threshold orb - obtained by destroying cards which have threshold of 1 diamond.
"Troop" typeplate - obtained by destroying troops
"4/4" stats orb - obtained by destroying 4/4 troops
"L1" expansion symbol orb - obtained by destroying set 1 legendaries
(Possibly) an extra thing just for legendaries - maybe artist?

Destroying a card will give you at least 1 and maybe more of the components which are used to make it. Components are not set-specific, with the exception of the expansion symbol orb.

In this model, you don't actually need recipes for each card. You just need to gather the appropriate components and stick them in the crafting interface. CZE can regulate crafting by managing how the first ingredient (the nameplate) is acquired. Common and uncommon nameplates may be sold for gold, while legendary ones may be rewards for scheduled tournaments, thus limiting the supply to a certain number per week.

Remember, we cannot actually make much, if any, pvp cards. That was stated from the beginning. Your system might work for PVE cards however. They have already shown images of crafting mats though so unless things have changed drastically (not an impossibility) then it seems completely different that what they have shown.

BossHoss
05-05-2014, 05:56 PM
Remember, we cannot actually make much, if any, pvp cards. That was stated from the beginning. Your system might work for PVE cards however. They have already shown images of crafting mats though so unless things have changed drastically (not an impossibility) then it seems completely different that what they have shown.

Where are these crafting mat images? I haven't seen them I don't think and am curious

chromus
05-05-2014, 06:07 PM
1771

I assume this is the only image we have of crafting mats (from KS page)?

sukebe
05-05-2014, 06:48 PM
1771

I assume this is the only image we have of crafting mats (from KS page)?

Yep, that is the one. It is likely a lot has changed but it at least gives an idea of where they started

Idus
05-05-2014, 11:10 PM
Yeah, I'm confused about the "1 of each material" as the reward for King & above. It should be comparable to the 2 legendary pieces of equipment, or the dragon starter deck. But since when is 1 of any crafting material in an MMO worth much, except for maybe the rarest ones? 1 of a common or uncommon material you usually leave on the ground as it's not worth the effort to pick up.

So whether this means material usage is radically lower than in traditional MMO's, and getting any materials will be hard, whether it's meant as just a sampler, which would see to very useful, or whether they will reconsider the quantities in light of a revised system, I'm not sure.

bactgudz
05-06-2014, 06:25 AM
I would think they need some way to leech cards out of the system for a digital ccg with a heavily pushed drafting component. MTGO has redemption, Hearthstone has it's version of crafting. Thousands of sets are redeemed each week on mtgo, if mtgo didn't have redemption, there would be massive oversupply of standard cards online and the economy would be in danger of crippling. We have seen in the past that even when redemption goes off-line for a week or two prices plummet.

I think Hex will need a similar card sink, and I'd expect it to come from crafting. I think something like 10-30 cards of a particular rarity+crafting materials can be exchanged for a random card of the next highest rarity would work...and you could maybe craft a booster from 5-10 legendaries+crafting materials.

halfwing
05-06-2014, 07:23 AM
I would think they need some way to leech cards out of the system for a digital ccg with a heavily pushed drafting component. MTGO has redemption, Hearthstone has it's version of crafting. Thousands of sets are redeemed each week on mtgo, if mtgo didn't have redemption, there would be massive oversupply of standard cards online and the economy would be in danger of crippling. We have seen in the past that even when redemption goes off-line for a week or two prices plummet.

I think Hex will need a similar card sink, and I'd expect it to come from crafting. I think something like 10-30 cards of a particular rarity+crafting materials can be exchanged for a random card of the next highest rarity would work...and you could maybe craft a booster from 5-10 legendaries+crafting materials.

I find it hard to believe that MTGO has thousands of sets being redeemed, because that would mean thousands of people willingly subject themselves to using MTGO :P

That said, crafting IS the card sink for Hex. Cards can be broken down into base components, and those components are used to make new cards, equipment, or consumables. Except unlike in Hearthstone, you have actual recipes, instead of just an alternative currency. They mentioned they would like to show you what a card will be broken down into BEFORE you do so, instead of it being random, and I really hope that is still the plan. Even if some items were just like... a rare drop when crushing a card, it would be nice to see what the chances were before doing it.

zadies
05-06-2014, 07:36 AM
Hearthstones crafting system as it is, seems only to be in place because there is no trading.

bactgudz
05-06-2014, 08:02 AM
I find it hard to believe that MTGO has thousands of sets being redeemed, because that would mean thousands of people willingly subject themselves to using MTGO :P

No, it means tens of people are redeeming 100s of sets a piece each week. They are quite open about it being their full time job.

sukebe
05-06-2014, 06:48 PM
I would think they need some way to leech cards out of the system for a digital ccg with a heavily pushed drafting component. MTGO has redemption, Hearthstone has it's version of crafting. Thousands of sets are redeemed each week on mtgo, if mtgo didn't have redemption, there would be massive oversupply of standard cards online and the economy would be in danger of crippling. We have seen in the past that even when redemption goes off-line for a week or two prices plummet.

I think Hex will need a similar card sink, and I'd expect it to come from crafting. I think something like 10-30 cards of a particular rarity+crafting materials can be exchanged for a random card of the next highest rarity would work...and you could maybe craft a booster from 5-10 legendaries+crafting materials.

Unless they have radically changed what they originally said, we will not be crafting PVP cards at all, let alone boosters. The only thing I could see happening would be crafting AA pvp cards as long as the recipe required the original card. I also do not see the converting of lower rarity cards into higher rarity cards even in pve, that is far more basic than what they said they were going for.

Voormas
05-07-2014, 01:00 AM
Crafting is such an intriguing feature and we have so little information about it, but what I hope they have is a tier system for the materials that looks something like chests; Common, Uncommon, Rare, Legendary, Primal

How we might get Primal materials I can't be sure though, maybe PvE drops + chests?