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Indormi
05-04-2014, 01:19 AM
I really dont know where is the right place to post this.

First of all I though about it due to how Countermagic's template. Interrup target CARD. (bla bla bla). It doesnt say any zone so that means that a any card on the stack is a card (a little bit confusing).

Time Ripple reads: Return target card to its owner hand. (bla bla bla). Again it doesnt mention any zones. At this time and during all Alpha Time Ripple has functioned as Return target card (in play) to its owner hand, but that is not what the card reads.

I'm 99% sure that Time Ripple is not intended to be a card similar to Remand (image at the end) due to its rarity and lack of changes during alpha. Nevertheless card doesnt work as it says on the textbox so is a) a bug b)template mistake. I know they said that they werent going to nerf any cards when beta released and we got our colections but I guess that a template "correction" should be alright with all/most the players. (If not I'll enjoy playing with the correct Time Ripple a lot :))


http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=87919&type=card

noragar
05-04-2014, 01:51 AM
In order to affect card on the stack, Time Ripple would need to say "Interrupt" like Countermagic does. Time Ripple doesn't work on a card on the stack, in the same way that Countermagic doesn't work on a card in play.

Indormi
05-04-2014, 01:56 AM
It doesnt need to interrupt a card on the stack, thats the thing. Look at a card like Venser in magic http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=373326&type=card

noragar
05-04-2014, 02:18 AM
The FAQ says,

"Some cards can interrupt cards or effects on the chain. A link that is interrupted gets
removed from the chain and does nothing. If that link is a card, it’s put into its owner’s
graveyard.

o A card can only be interrupted while it’s on the chain. A card in any other zone is not a
legal target for interruption.

o A link can’t interrupt itself. "

While this explicitly states that Countermagic only works for cards on the stack, it's not totally clear whether Time Ripple would also be able to (there's no definition in the FAQ describing what "Put" means, so theoretically, it could mean "bounce or interrupt"). However, I think the most reasonable interpretation would be to treat "Interrupt" as a key word that is necessary to appear in order to affect cards or effects on the stack. This seems especially true since that's how the game has always adjudicated it.

Liokae
05-04-2014, 02:21 AM
The other issue is that you can't target a card in the graveyard with it, which would give it an extra, completely different, useful effect.

noragar
05-04-2014, 02:40 AM
It could be that the "owner" of a "card" is the equivalent phrasing as the "controller" of a "troop". Then Time Ripple would only be able to target a card in play in the same way that Wild Root Dancer can only target a troop in play (as opposed to the hand or graveyard or void).

I'm still looking forward to an actual set of rules so we can know about stuff like this for sure.

Indormi
05-04-2014, 02:44 AM
Put cant be used as a "keyword" symbolicing "in play" as there are other cards that use it that dont affect the board for example Peek or Relentless Corruption. What Liokae said is also true, Ripple should also be able to target cards in graveyard. As I said is almost certain that is a template issue. In addition every card that makes cards change zone from a graveyard (without transforming them) read Put *type* from your graveyard into "zone". In all of them the graveyard is stated in the text. See call of the grave, Urunaz, Midnight Shepard or Heavy Wealding bot.

bactgudz
05-04-2014, 07:35 AM
I think the most reasonable interpretation would be to treat "Interrupt" as a key word that is necessary to appear in order to affect cards or effects on the stack. This seems especially true since that's how the game has always adjudicated it.

this can't be the case since 'your cards and effects deal double damage' affects actions on the stack.

ossuary
05-04-2014, 10:16 AM
The way targeting works, unless the specific rules of the card (or a keyword on the card) say otherwise, is that if the zone for the target is not specified, the zone is understood to be the warzone (i.e. only cards in play on the table, or what Magic would call permanents).

Countermagic uses the keyword "interrupt," which specifically says it only works on cards that are still on the chain.

Time Ripple just says return target card to its owner's hand. Since no zone is specified, ONLY cards in the warzone can be targeted. This is why Time Ripple cannot return cards from a graveyard to your hand, and why it cannot target a card on the chain that isn't in play yet. It works exactly like it's supposed to, and exactly as it is worded; no change required.

hexnaes
05-04-2014, 11:40 AM
Time Ripple just says return target card to its owner's hand. Since no zone is specified, ONLY cards in the warzone can be targeted. This is why Time Ripple cannot return cards from a graveyard to your hand, and why it cannot target a card on the chain that isn't in play yet. It works exactly like it's supposed to, and exactly as it is worded; no change required.

Agreed. If this wasn't the case, then every card that targeted a minion would have to specify the minion is in play.

Disordia
05-04-2014, 11:58 AM
I also agree the wording they are using currently is sloppy.

Indormi
05-04-2014, 02:11 PM
Agreed. If this wasn't the case, then every card that targeted a minion would have to specify the minion is in play.

To be fair in MTG creatures that are not in play are not creatures but spells. In hex this is a messy subject as Zombie Plague uses troop when it reveals and throws this for a loop.


The way targeting works, unless the specific rules of the card (or a keyword on the card) say otherwise, is that if the zone for the target is not specified, the zone is understood to be the warzone (i.e. only cards in play on the table, or what Magic would call permanents).

According to mtg rules, you are right stuff can only target permanents unless stated otherwise. Thing is there is not such thing as "permanent" in Hex as we dont see it on any template. Which raises the question is that clear enough?

In addition the idea behind this thread was more to raise awareness of the shaky templates we have in hex.

ossuary
05-04-2014, 02:55 PM
I also agree the wording they are using currently is sloppy.

No, it isn't, you just aren't connecting the wording to the rules guide / FAQ they provided properly. The wording and definitions of functionality match perfectly.

Gwaer
05-04-2014, 03:23 PM
Finally, since there is an independent arbiter watching all games who basically is the rules, there's much less pressure on hex to get as specific as magic does. If a card can be used in a certain way you will figure it out through play, which is exactly not how rules mistakes work in magic.

Indormi
05-04-2014, 03:40 PM
Agreed. If this wasn't the case, then every card that targeted a minion would have to specify the minion is in play.


Finally, since there is an independent arbiter watching all games who basically is the rules, there's much less pressure on hex to get as specific as magic does. If a card can be used in a certain way you will figure it out through play, which is exactly not how rules mistakes work in magic.

This is ofc an unlikely example but someone may pay his hard earn money to buy a card due to certain idea he got with the cards template, only to see afterwards he can not use it in that way which will result in a pissed guy.

While having "the arbiter" for rulings is fine, I still think templates should aim to be as clear as possible. Having the arbiter also means that "broken/unintended" stuff is harder to occur as a perfecly correct interaction (according to templates) may not be able to happen just cause is not coded. And that makes all the we are not going to nerf policy much different as there is no going to be unintended behaviours as it just wont work. Which while great from the developpers side it feels a bit lame as a player.

bactgudz
05-04-2014, 06:12 PM
No, it isn't, you just aren't connecting the wording to the rules guide / FAQ they provided properly. The wording and definitions of functionality match perfectly.
So ossuary, how would you interpret the following abilities within the printed rules:

a) "Your cards deal double damage"
b) "Void all your cards"

Would either of these effect actions on the chain? Or your booby trap in an opponent's deck?

Also where does it say this? The targeting rules that are printed just say available targets will be highlighted, not that in absence of a zone, it must be in play.


The way targeting works, unless the specific rules of the card (or a keyword on the card) say otherwise, is that if the zone for the target is not specified, the zone is understood to be the warzone (i.e. only cards in play on the table, or what Magic would call permanents).


And thirdly, the ambiguity about "cards" is not just on targeting effects. Why does Comet Storm need to specify "Void all cards in play" whereas Judgement has no qualification, when clearly "destruction" can happen to more than just cards in play as evidenced by Reginarld Lancashire.

The rules do not address this at all. It is just plain old poor templating no matter how you slice it since it is not consistent amongst printed cards, let alone between printed cards and the rules.

Werlix
05-04-2014, 07:36 PM
The way targeting works, unless the specific rules of the card (or a keyword on the card) say otherwise, is that if the zone for the target is not specified, the zone is understood to be the warzone (i.e. only cards in play on the table, or what Magic would call permanents).

Countermagic uses the keyword "interrupt," which specifically says it only works on cards that are still on the chain.

Time Ripple just says return target card to its owner's hand. Since no zone is specified, ONLY cards in the warzone can be targeted. This is why Time Ripple cannot return cards from a graveyard to your hand, and why it cannot target a card on the chain that isn't in play yet. It works exactly like it's supposed to, and exactly as it is worded; no change required.

Then why does Living Totem's power work on himself when he is in your hand or graveyard? Is that a bug?

ossuary
05-04-2014, 07:42 PM
A keyword or term can have a specific zone associated with it. A keyword can also have multiple zones associated with it. If one zone is specified, that's the zone it applies to. If a keyword or term cannot be applied to ALL zones, and no zone is specified, it only applies to the warzone (this is the global default).


a) "Your cards deal double damage"

No zone specified; no inherent, mandatory default zone for the term "card" - so applies to all cards in all zones that belong to you.


b) "Void all your cards"

We don't have an effect that currently does this, but with this exact wording, it would void all cards you own in all zones. Again, void as a term does not have a specific, mandatory default zone. The fact that the listed rules text does not specify one zone therefore means all zones.


Would either of these effect actions on the chain? Or your booby trap in an opponent's deck?

Yes, they would affect actions that belong to you on the chain, because the chain is a zone, and they apply to all zones. Ditto the booby traps - they are still owned by you, and they are in a zone.


Also where does it say this? The targeting rules that are printed just say available targets will be highlighted, not that in absence of a zone, it must be in play.

The devs have clarified targeting multiple times. Read Alan's crazy bug thread. Read the AMA Chris Woods did on these forums several months ago. Their clarifications, in conjunction with the quick guide and FAQ that we have for now, give us what we need to know to understand how targeting works. I'm sure it will be even more clear when we have the long-form rules in our hands.


And thirdly, the ambiguity about "cards" is not just on targeting effects. Why does Comet Storm need to specify "Void all cards in play" whereas Judgement has no qualification, when clearly "destruction" can happen to more than just cards in play as evidenced by Reginarld Lancashire.

Void as a term can apply to any zone, so it HAS to specify "in play" to get the desired effect out of Comet Strike. Destroy, on the other hand, ONLY applies to the warzone. Judgement does not need to specify "in play" because it can only be applied to cards in play. And Reginald doesn't destroy cards, he destroys opponents, which when taken literally, are on the warzone, because they are you, and you are a valid target for troops to deal damage to as well, which by definition means you are "in play." So again, no zone clarification required.

There is no bad templating. There is no bad design. There is just your confusion over the valid targets and zones for various keywords and terms, which will be made more clear than they already are in the full rules, whenever we get them.

Werlix
05-04-2014, 08:02 PM
A keyword or term can have a specific zone associated with it. A keyword can also have multiple zones associated with it. If one zone is specified, that's the zone it applies to. If a keyword or term cannot be applied to ALL zones, and no zone is specified, it only applies to the warzone (this is the global default).

This is interesting and would explain all the issues I have with the current wording of cards (eg "why doesn't Extinction destroy troops in your hand?"). Is this statement written somewhere like in the FAQ or was it mentioned somewhere by a developer? Or is it just how you interpret the rules based on how things currently function?

Gwaer
05-04-2014, 09:02 PM
One thing I'd mention, booby trap may not actually be doubled by all your cards deal double damage... To my knowledge owner and controller are synonymous in hex. So the booby traps may actually count as your opponents cards after you create them. Even though they help you.

ossuary
05-05-2014, 01:22 AM
One thing I'd mention, booby trap may not actually be doubled by all your cards deal double damage... To my knowledge owner and controller are synonymous in hex. So the booby traps may actually count as your opponents cards after you create them. Even though they help you.

This is an interesting point, and in thinking about it more, I admit I don't know how this specific interaction does or should work. The sabotage is obviously yours, but once created and added to the opponent's deck, the booby traps themselves might technically be considered "theirs" by game engine definition (Hex tends to consider the person holding the card as the owner).

I'd like to see this interaction still treat the booby traps as the property of their creator (for just this sort of interaction), but the rules as built may not allow for that. Some people may recall I discussed this concept several months ago, where I suggested to CZE that we may need to differentiate between controller and owner as distinct entities after all, instead of only using the term owner, which is how the game currently functions. If the cards could distinguish between the two, the Booby Trap + Te'Talca interaction would function the way it "ought" to.

Indormi
05-05-2014, 01:30 AM
Void all the cards
We don't have an effect that currently does this, but with this exact wording, it would void all cards you own in all zones. Again, void as a term does not have a specific, mandatory default zone. The fact that the listed rules text does not specify one zone therefore means all zones

I dont understand this, so if a card says Void all the cards it voids everything from all zones, but if it says Put all cards in the void then it only affects stuff that is in play?.

To my understanding "put" is used in cards that not only affect the warzone, like put the top card of your deck or put target troop from your graveyard.

This also was something that people talked during the Alpha, Stoneskin interrupts target action that targets a troop that you control. According to Gwaer own/controller is synonimous, but it cant be used to interrupt a Countermagic on the stack cause the card-troop on the stack is not a troop, but a spell. But a card-troop is a troop in all other zones, as we can see in other templates like Zombie Plague, Shadowgrove Witch or Call of the grave (deck, hand and graveyard).

Also if void is not zone restricted, why you cant void a card from your opponents hand with solitary exile. (or if you manage to put it QA speed on the stack, via time ripple a exile that has an exile) a spell from the stack?

Dunno maybe is crystal clear to you Ossuary but it seems that some other people and me have some doubts which means is not crystal clear to everyone. (Saying is not incorrect, is not the same as saying that the templating is not bad/clear).

ossuary
05-05-2014, 04:39 AM
The key phrase on Stoneskin is "target troop you control." You don't control them unless they are successfully put into play. You own them, but you don't control them. Control means they are in the warzone on your side. Countermagic says "interrupt target card," so it only works on cards on the chain (interrupt as a term is only valid against cards on the chain that have not resolved yet), but Stoneskin only works on things already in play (or yourself), so it is not valid for Stoneskin to interrupt a Countermagic, but Countermagic can interrupt another Countermagic.

Regarding Solitary Exile, it resolves when it enters play. Any card that is legal to target at that time is fair game. It's also important to note that there is a difference between targeting one card and doing something to all cards. If an effect says it voids ALL cards you own, it hits everything in all zones, because it's a global effect (not really targeting at all). But if it says void TARGET card, that limits the valid zones somewhat.

Generally speaking, you cannot target a graveyard, a library, a hand, or the chain unless the card or the keyword/term being used specifically grants access to that zone. Call the Grave says, "Put target troop from a graveyard into your hand." It has to specify graveyard, otherwise it would mean take a troop from the warzone and put it into your hand (like Buccaneer, except YOU get the troop no matter whose it was). Murder says, "Destroy target troop." No zone specified, so only the warzone is valid (the global default, and also the default for the term destroy).

Here's how you know Void can hit cards in multiple zones: Trial of Faith's text says, "When this constant enters play, void all other cards you control and all cards in your hand." It has to specify that it only affects your warzone and your hand, otherwise it would be voiding your graveyard and your library as well, since it hits "all" cards instead of "target" card. Chaos Key, on the other hand, says, "Void this artifact: Void target card." And that, since it is a single target effect, with no specific zone access granted, only lets you target cards already in play in the warzone.

Indormi
05-05-2014, 05:45 AM
Ok, then why Sorrow and Yesterday only affect Troops in play?. Sorrow reads Troops get -1/-1 this turn. No targeting involved (which would limit the zone effect) but troops in hand dont get -1/-1 (could be relevant for stuff like Howling ambush) and if play a charge bot afterwards it does not die. Is also relevant with Wall of Corpses as it will take an extra -0/-1 for each troop in your graveyard.

Same with Yesterday. Yesterday reads: Put each troop into its controller hand, no zone specified, and as I said before we know troops are troops in all zones but the stack due to the template of Call the Grave, Zombie Plague and Shadowgrove Witch.

Other effects that buffs more than 1 troop for example Onslaught and Gore Feast specifie troops you control but is not the case with Yesterday and Sorrow.

ossuary
05-05-2014, 05:54 AM
Those are interesting questions. Let's look at each one.

1) Sorrow. No zone specified. It does not say "all" troops, it just says troops. So the global default is used (warzone only). It does not say your troops or opponent's troops, so it affects both. As to your point about playing additional troops after Sorrow resolves, that's a very interesting point. Clearly Sorrow is being treated as a one-time effect (it applies the -1/-1 only when it resolves), with a one-time secondary effect of expiring at the end of the turn. The argument could be made that since the wording says "troops get -1/-1" that it should actually be treated like a Continuous Effect, but this would be incorrect reasoning, because only permanents (I'll use the Magic term here since Hex doesn't have a specific definition - I mean troops, artifacts, and constants in play) can have Continuous Effects. Actions resolve as a one-time event, and then are gone. So it is correct that putting a troop into play after Sorrow is finished resolving, that troop will not suffer the -1/-1 penalty.

2) Yesterday. "Put" is not a keyword/term with a specific zone of influence, so again the global default of the warzone is used. This behavior is consistent with the wording, just like Sorrow.

Onslaught and Gore Feast have to specify troops YOU control because otherwise they would affect your opponent's troops as well. If they just said "troops" as opposed to "troops you control" they would still only affect troops in play, it's just that your opponent would get the effect as well.

Vorpal
05-05-2014, 07:54 AM
The principle is quite simple: if it doesn't specify a zone, it refers only to the warzone *unless* the keyword in question has a different set of default zones.

The issue is which keywords have different default zones - this is something I don't know myself yet, as I'm not sure the exact list has been compiled and presented to us anywhere. But that's not necessarily confusing.

ossuary
05-05-2014, 07:59 AM
Yes, that's actually a pretty concise way of putting it. Thanks for the great clarification. :)

Re: default zones, it's true there's not a full list now, which is why I've said more than once it'll be better understood by all once the full rulebook is compiled and made available. Some of the knowledge I'm using to answer these targeting questions comes from dev answers to specific questions; I definitely agree we need all this info in one place as soon as time allows.

But I stand by my statement that the wording / templating is correct, accurate, and comprehendible as is. The only problem right now is lack of clarity / understanding by individuals, not the rules themselves. They are logical and rational; they're just not laid plain for everyone to scrutinize in person yet. :)

Indormi
05-05-2014, 09:29 AM
After some thinking, I believe it all comes down that card is an ambiguous term. It seems "card" both means permament and "physical(digital) card". I came to this conclusion after reading Circle of Preservation, that reads "the next time target card or actionbla bla bla. Which basically means that an action is not a card...but an action has to be card as Countermagic template reads "Interrupt target card..." and I sure counter actions before.

So yeah card is also permanent in this game in addition to what a normal card is, which makes stuff a little bit confusing, but after you know this it all makes more sense. I'd hope they would have used different name for permanent but well...we got what we got.ç

Edit: About the other comments, so basically
Void each card-> Only warzone
Void all cards->All zones?

ossuary
05-05-2014, 09:35 AM
I agree that it would be nice if we had a term for Permanent, for convenience if nothing else. There's also always the possibility that one or two specific cards are using outdated wording that they didn't catch and clean up since they finalized their templates (all those "this is just a templating change" items from the patch notes of the last 2 months).

I'm assuming the reason Circle of Preservation says "or action" is to make sure it's clear that it can target one-time effects on the chain (since items on the chain are normally only targetable when you are interrupting them). Saying it can target actions ensures it can hit things on the chain.

Disordia
05-05-2014, 10:42 AM
This is why I think it'd be nice to have terms like troop for troops on the battlefield, troop spell while it's on the chain, and troop card everywhere else. If you use the term card, also refer to the zone in question, like troop card in graveyard, or constant card in your deck. For abilities that affect more than just one type of card, like judgment, then list the zone as well. Destroy all cards in play.

If you did something like that, it would be much easier to understand what affects where, and it would be much easier to explain it to someone else and have them understand it, and be able to look at new cards and understand their effects quicker and easier.

Rendakor
05-05-2014, 09:55 PM
I think Circle of Preservation says "action" so it can protect against champion powers, which are not cards.

Indormi
05-06-2014, 12:45 AM
I think Circle of Preservation says "action" so it can protect against champion powers, which are not cards.

I didnt know you could use it with champion abilities, if this is true then the terminology is truly a mess.

Liokae
05-06-2014, 02:48 AM
I didnt know you could use it with champion abilities, if this is true then the terminology is truly a mess.

As far as I've seen, when you mouse over them, all champion abilities are explicitly listed as some form of action (either basic or quick), and they go on the chain.

Indormi
05-06-2014, 02:57 AM
As far as I've seen, when you mouse over them, all champion abilities are explicitly listed as some form of action (either basic or quick), and they go on the chain.

This is really interesting, and makes the template of countermagic (and future counters) very interesting. It seems it we would get a counter that could only counter actions (ala Flusterstorm) it could stop Hero powers, instead of a card like Stifle (Counter target triggered or activated ability).

So the wording is probably going to be a little bit tricky.

ossuary
05-06-2014, 05:26 AM
Champion abilities go on the chain because they have a target and are activated. They all (currently) operate at Basic speed, but they are not actions, they are champion abilities - they are their own class of ability. Action (either Basic or Quick) is a card type (the only card type Stoneskin can interrupt), but Basic speed and Quick speed are also speeds at which effects resolve / are valid to use.

To my knowledge you cannot counter champion abilities, unless the game engine treats them as a "card" for the purposes of effects like Stoneskin and Circle of Preservation. Countermagic definitely doesn't work though, nor does Splinter of Azathoth's ability.

Edit: easy way to test this would be to use Fahrny to deal damage to a troop, then try to use Stoneskin to interrupt it. Or use Gozzog to deal damage to your opponent and have them try to use Circle of Preservation to stop it.

frychikn
05-06-2014, 05:57 AM
rofl if it did target cards on the chain.... why would you not play blue?

KiraForce
05-06-2014, 08:50 AM
Controller is the key word in Time Ripple's effect. A card on the stack is not controlled, because it technically doesn't exist yet. Cards in the Graveyard are not controlled for the same reason cards in the deck aren't controlled, for balance. So when it says "its controller", it means the card has to be on the field already, meaning it has to be either a troop, constant, or artifact that has been SUCCESSFULLY cast.

Indormi
05-06-2014, 09:04 AM
Thing is/was controller/owner seems to be synonimous in Hex.

bactgudz
05-06-2014, 09:36 AM
Controller is the key word in Time Ripple's effect. A card on the stack is not controlled, because it technically doesn't exist yet. Cards in the Graveyard are not controlled for the same reason cards in the deck aren't controlled, for balance. So when it says "its controller", it means the card has to be on the field already, meaning it has to be either a troop, constant, or artifact that has been SUCCESSFULLY cast.
No, since the same issue exists with Reversion.

Marsden
05-06-2014, 10:22 AM
Controller is the key word in Time Ripple's effect. A card on the stack is not controlled, because it technically doesn't exist yet. Cards in the Graveyard are not controlled for the same reason cards in the deck aren't controlled, for balance. So when it says "its controller", it means the card has to be on the field already, meaning it has to be either a troop, constant, or artifact that has been SUCCESSFULLY cast.

This. If it said 'Owner' I would say it should also work on cards in the Graveyard. But the text was changed in v828 (https://hextcg.com/patch-v828-breakdown/): 'Time Ripple now reads: “Put target card into its controller’s hand and it gets permanent cost +(1).” (this is just a templating change)'

Indormi
05-06-2014, 02:23 PM
As was said earlier in the thread, the key was target. According to MTG targeting rules, a target must always be a permanent unless stated otherwise.

I also mentioned before that the term "card" in hex seems to be both permanent and digital card. So basically time ripple reads
Put target permanent into its controller's hand and it gets permanent cost+(1).