PDA

View Full Version : Elimination specialist



ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 10:08 AM
player A plays ES.
He resolves and gains 1 rocket counter
He activates his ability to deal one dmg
In response player B casts murder
Murder resolves first and ES is removed from the board
Yet, the missile still Hits for dmg..

I posted this in the alpha bug forum by accident sorry.
I want to know if this is how hex works as I am a mtg player and normally this chain would result in the cancel of ES' s ability

Thanks in advance.

Scammanator
05-06-2014, 10:16 AM
Once an ability is on the chain it does not rely on its source being in play to resolve. Abilities used by a troop will fully resolve, even if the troop is dead.

This is also true in Magic with abilities on the stack. Think about abilities like "Sacrifice this creature: Deal 1 damage to target creature." If the creature had to be alive to deal the damage, then the ability would be useless.

Xenavire
05-06-2014, 10:19 AM
I want to know if this is how hex works as I am a mtg player and normally this chain would result in the cancel of ES' s ability


...No, it wouldn't. Once an ability goes on the stack, it has to be specifically countered to be stopped, killing the creature that activated the ability would do nothing. This is exactly the same in MTG and Hex.

ossuary
05-06-2014, 10:34 AM
Zack, I think you might be thinking of MtG's rules for removing the TARGET, rather than the SOURCE. Even in Magic, as the others have said, removing the source of an effect on the chain doesn't stop the effect from going off. The effect only fizzles if you remove the target.

This is working exactly like it's supposed to. :)

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 10:34 AM
Ok I'm going to drop it. As a mtg judge that is not what I know to be true. Effects such as sac to do are triggers of payment effects, if the creature dies before sac triggers on the stack then there is no resolution for that ability. The same is true in mtg. Ex. Creature taps to untap xyz. You kill the creature before it can resolve it's tap effect and boom, nothing happens

Yoss
05-06-2014, 10:40 AM
Since you now have two threads for this, I'll cross-quote what I answered you in the original thread.


This is not correct. In MTG (and HEX), the ability is a separate object from the source of the ability. In MTG, if I tap my Prodigal Sorcerer to ping your Prodigal Sorcerer, then you do the same, yours will resolve first and kill mine, but mine will still resolve and kill yours. In order to stop the activation ability, you need Stifle or something similar that can interact with the ability (not with the source). Same in Hex. He activates ES at your Shroomkin, you Murder it; Murder resolves first and kills ES, then ES ability resolves and kills the Shroomkin.

Analogy. It is like a rocket launcher. Once the rocket is fired, it no longer matters if you destroy the launcher; the rocket will still go to its target.

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 10:41 AM
Additionally then, the bug would be with several other cards on hex that I have killed before their activation on the chain and their abilities fizzing

Yoss
05-06-2014, 10:41 AM
Additionally then, the bug would be with several other cards on hex that I have killed before their activation on the chain and their abilities fizzing

Such as?

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 10:42 AM
Again, I did apologize as I didn't realize it was in the alpha bug area and this occurred in beta. My apologies again.

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 10:45 AM
I did this to a stargazer and to the 1 drop mana dork and both effects failed to resolve after the death of the creature. This was 2 nights ago

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 10:47 AM
Also, did this in response to wind whisperer and to hop's iron and all cards worked as they do in mtg. You don't need a card that cancels a chain effect if the card in play is no longer in play at the time of resolution then there is no text to say what would have happened in play.

Scammanator
05-06-2014, 10:48 AM
Ok I'm going to drop it. As a mtg judge that is not what I know to be true. Effects such as sac to do are triggers of payment effects, if the creature dies before sac triggers on the stack then there is no resolution for that ability. The same is true in mtg. Ex. Creature taps to untap xyz. You kill the creature before it can resolve it's tap effect and boom, nothing happens

I am also a certified judge for MtG, and I would bet every last one of my Judge Foils that you are incorrect about this. I think you might be confused regarding the rule about what happens when an ability's target leaves play, and mixing it up with the ability's source.

Xenavire
05-06-2014, 10:48 AM
Effects such as sac to do are triggers of payment effects, if the creature dies before sac triggers on the stack then there is no resolution for that ability.

Are you talking about sacrifice as a cost, rather than an effect? Because a troop that is sacrificed as a cost is sent to the graveyard before the ability goes on the stack, and that means sac effects pretty much can't be stopped unless it has a target and you remove it (but you wouldn't get the sacrificed troop back).

These things work exactly the same in both games, and if you think otherwise, I question you actually being a judge.

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 10:49 AM
Sorry Hop'hiro**

My buddy is addicted to that card

Yoss
05-06-2014, 10:52 AM
Relevant MTG rules sections, 602 and 608. Zack, please feel free to cite a specific subparagraph, since you're a judge and all.

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 10:54 AM
Ok I'm going to just stop responding. I wanted to ask a question of this new game and hear from an administrator not a few folks who call me into question or to be berated online. If I failed to accurately explain something then we are at an impasse. Forget I brought it up as I do forget hex and mtg do have differences. As for a judge I'm only a L2 and have never had and issue with rules even with other judges. Thank you all for being so civil.

Scammanator
05-06-2014, 10:57 AM
I did this to a stargazer and to the 1 drop mana dork and both effects failed to resolve after the death of the creature. This was 2 nights ago

I don't think those abilities even use the chain. They don't have targets (This is a rule that's different from MtG, abilities without targets do not use the chain and resolve immediately.)

That's probably why you're confused. You didn't see those abilities resolve, because they resolve earlier than you were expecting..

Yoss
05-06-2014, 10:59 AM
Scamma, they changed that. All activated abilities use the chain. It is only untargeted triggered abilities that bypass.

Scammanator
05-06-2014, 11:04 AM
Scamma, they changed that. All activated abilities use the chain. It is only untargeted triggered abilities that bypass.

You're right. I forgot. Yeah, then those abilities failing to resolve is odd. We should look into it.

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 11:05 AM
Sorry one last thing. I just want to clear up so I have it noted. Are ya'll assuming "in response" to a chain is after a token is removed to pay for an effect ? Often, in response is a term referring to taking an action after declaration of attempt of action.

Yoss
05-06-2014, 11:14 AM
Sorry one last thing. I just want to clear up so I have it noted. Are ya'll assuming "in response" to a chain is after a token is removed to pay for an effect ? Often, in response is a term referring to taking an action after declaration of attempt of action.

I was assuming:

Player A has Elimination Specialist in play with 1 or more counters on it.
Player B has a creature with 1 defense (Shroomkin, say), a Murder in hand, at least 1 Blood thresh, at least 3 resources open.
Player A has priority.
Player A activates ES (targeting Shroomkin, removing a counter, placing ability on chain).
Player A passes priority to B.
Player B casts Murder (targeting ES, paying 3 resource, placing card on chain above ES ability).
Player B passes priority to A.
Player A passes.
Murder resolves (ES dies), priority returns to A (ES ability still on chain).
Player A passes.
Player B passes.
ES ability resolves (Shroomkin dies).
and so on....

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 11:19 AM
Ok then that is where we have the misconception. You are assuming that the counter is removed. Lol ok I feel less like a crazy person now. Yes, if the response is in due to removal of token then yes ya'll are right. What I am stating is

"Player announces use of ability and it is added to stack as player B gains a chance to respond to declaration. Player B kills intended activate creature and the ability is never brought into play or resolved. " This is do able in duels of the plains walkers and was done several times on hex with other creatures of the 3 times I've done this to ES it seems the system takes the rocket token as payment before the other player can react

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 11:21 AM
Stargazers and the other cards do not tap prior to their turn on the chain as the tap is payment for the ability. Thus, before payment a player can counter it being used

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 11:22 AM
Ok makes sense now. Again, I'm not a big forum guy so I'm not very good at detailed explanation. My apologies

Xenavire
05-06-2014, 11:23 AM
What? I never ever saw that ruling in my life - a player could only respond to something on the chain, before it resolved. The only way you could ever do what you are saying, is to kill the troop when it comes into play, and it would only work if the ability was [Basic].

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 11:30 AM
Then Mr/Ms xeniavire have you played in a tournament for mtg? A player announces use of ability and "in response" to declaration an opponent has a chance to react. Otherwise, it would simply be the player who acted first would win everything.

Now, it IS true that if you target something it can react with an ability before resolution that would result in it dieing or being removed from play.

Disordia
05-06-2014, 11:33 AM
Ok then that is where we have the misconception. You are assuming that the counter is removed. Lol ok I feel less like a crazy person now. Yes, if the response is in due to removal of token then yes ya'll are right. What I am stating is

"Player announces use of ability and it is added to stack as player B gains a chance to respond to declaration. Player B kills intended activate creature and the ability is never brought into play or resolved. " This is do able in duels of the plains walkers and was done several times on hex with other creatures of the 3 times I've done this to ES it seems the system takes the rocket token as payment before the other player can react

I will say it is very hard to decipher what is going on in your examples. It sounds like a creature is activating an ability and you are responding to this activation by killing the creature that I'd activating the ability. If this is what you are saying, then the ability will resolve whether or not the activating creature is still on the battlefield or not. This is how it works in magic and in hex. If that isn't happening in hex, then that's a bug.

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 11:39 AM
Again, I apologize as I'm not used to using a forum, much less my smartphone, to text commumicate.

What I'm saying is:

PPlayer A declares they intend to use an ability
In response , before the ability has been triggered or used
Player B has priority to take an action that would prevent the activation of that ability.

This is how instant speed things generally work.

Example again:

Player A has a stargazer he declares he intends to use the tap ability to gain 2 life

In response to declaration, player B murders the stargazer before it has been tapped to prevent it's ability from being used.

This is as clear as I am capable of getting. Again sorry for having a hard time doing so

Xenavire
05-06-2014, 11:40 AM
Then Mr/Ms xeniavire have you played in a tournament for mtg? A player announces use of ability and "in response" to declaration an opponent has a chance to react. Otherwise, it would simply be the player who acted first would win everything.

Now, it IS true that if you target something it can react with an ability before resolution that would result in it dieing or being removed from play.

If you are going to be condescending, then correctly spell my name, thanks. And I played local tournaments with players who were in high level regionals, and nationals (granted, this was back around the first Ravnica block.)

They were very strict with the rules, and with there being 5/6 of them, I would be very surprised if they would let an interaction like that slide in every single game.

Yoy could respond to declaring an attack, and to a card on the stack (or an ability), but you couldn't respond to a declaration of playing a card or ability.

And that is precisely how it works in DotP, and also in Hex.

Yoss
05-06-2014, 11:42 AM
Ok then that is where we have the misconception. You are assuming that the counter is removed. Lol ok I feel less like a crazy person now. Yes, if the response is in due to removal of token then yes ya'll are right. What I am stating is

"Player announces use of ability and it is added to stack as player B gains a chance to respond to declaration. Player B kills intended activate creature and the ability is never brought into play or resolved. " This is do able in duels of the plains walkers and was done several times on hex with other creatures of the 3 times I've done this to ES it seems the system takes the rocket token as payment before the other player can react

There is no "announcing", there is only having priority or not. When A has priority, B cannot do anything. When A activates ES, he removes a counter as part of the action and also chooses a target and puts the ability on the chain. A then gets back (retains) priority. Only when A passes can B actually respond. By then it is too late.

"Announcing" is only an informal tool for paper MTG to help players skip through priority passes if they wish to do so. B can "announce" intent to Murder while A has priority, but A has no obligation to allow priority to move until he is ready.

Disordia
05-06-2014, 11:46 AM
Again, I apologize as I'm not used to using a forum, much less my smartphone, to text commumicate.

What I'm saying is:

PPlayer A declares they intend to use an ability
In response , before the ability has been triggered or used
Player B has priority to take an action that would prevent the activation of that ability.

This is how instant speed things generally work.

Example again:

Player A has a stargazer he declares he intends to use the tap ability to gain 2 life

In response to declaration, player B murders the stargazer before it has been tapped to prevent it's ability from being used.

This is as clear as I am capable of getting. Again sorry for having a hard time doing so

Yea...that's not how it works at all in magic or hex. Once a player has priority, he can activate a creatures ability and put it on the stack without the other player having priority at any point within that time. Now once that is done, the other player will get priority before the ability resolves.

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 11:48 AM
Xena, sorry for the name mispelling, again I'm working off of a smartphone and your name is complicated. My apologizes. I was only condescending due to the attitude you already showed towards myself. I'm sorry for not taking the "higher ground".



Again, I feel the point is lost as I lack the ability to accurately describe what I'm talking about.

jtatta
05-06-2014, 11:49 AM
Okay, I don't know how you ever passed your level 2 judge test, or even if you are a level 2 judge.

In magic, I don't have to explain to my opponent that I'm about to use my Prodigal Sorcerer to give him a chance to respond. If I have priority, I'm simply going to tap him to add his ability to the stack and you can't do anything to stop it. You can kill him in response all you want but you're taking one damage. This is on like page 6 of the original MTG rule book and something that everyone knows whether you're a judge or not.

This has nothing to do with not being familiar with the forums or using a smart phone to communicate. You just don't know the rules, which is fine, except that you keep insisting that you do and that we're all wrong. The example that you cited in the OP is working as intended.

- John

ossuary
05-06-2014, 11:51 AM
Yeah, I don't think official Magic rules work that way either, but they definitely don't work that way in Hex. There is no announcing. You either have priority, or you don't. If Player A activates a troop ability, that ability is going to resolve no matter what (assuming the target remains legal), even if Player B kills the troop in response. Player B does not get priority after an activation until the activated ability is already on the chain.

Xenavire
05-06-2014, 11:54 AM
Xena, sorry for the name mispelling, again I'm working off of a smartphone and your name is complicated. My apologizes. I was only condescending due to the attitude you already showed towards myself. I'm sorry for not taking the "higher ground".



Again, I feel the point is lost as I lack the ability to accurately describe what I'm talking about.


I was being polite actually - I am not the only one questioning you being a judge, and considering that everyone here has said definitively that you are wrong and your understanding is flawed, we are completely justified in wondering about your ability to be a judge.

Then you decided to be condescending, which I found to be quite unpleasant. I will forgive the typo, I know the curse of typing with a smartphone (forever editing posts later because my thumb pressed 'b' instead of 'space'), but there really was no call for you to be condescending to me. I was working off correct information (according to everyone in this thread) and you seem to be working off flawed information - if you can point to official rulings to prove us all wrong, be my guest. But please keep it civil.

ZackBlade
05-06-2014, 11:56 AM
Ok thanks everyone for your input. Have a good day !! = )

Scammanator
05-06-2014, 12:10 PM
I was being polite actually - I am not the only one questioning you being a judge, and considering that everyone here has said definitively that you are wrong and your understanding is flawed, we are completely justified in wondering about your ability to be a judge.

Actually, I'm happy to take their claim of being a judge at face value. I've got no more proof of my certification than they do, and I'm making the same claim. Being a judge doesn't stop someone from being wrong, however. I've known a judge with more experience than me who confidently asserted that a creature with two instances of first strike dealt damage before a creature with one instance of first strike (not at all true). Even judges can have misunderstandings of certain rules. I think what we have here is a misunderstanding coupled with an admitted failure of communication.

Scammanator
05-06-2014, 12:33 PM
In magic, I don't have to explain to my opponent that I'm about to use my Prodigal Sorcerer to give him a chance to respond. If I have priority, I'm simply going to tap him to add his ability to the stack and you can't do anything to stop it. You can kill him in response all you want but you're taking one damage. This is on like page 6 of the original MTG rule book and something that everyone knows whether you're a judge or not.

There actually is a tournament rule similar to what ZackBlade is talking about. It has to do with shortcuts and player communication. It applies when someone improperly acts out of priority. Which is not possible to do in Hex, of course. But I think it may be the source of the confusion.