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htesrepus
05-06-2014, 09:14 PM
Cards with inspire are broken. For the utility that they do, they cost entirely too little mana. I recommend the programmers give this some looking into, for whatever that's worth.

fuzzywuzhe
05-06-2014, 09:19 PM
Its just one possible playstyle taht is viable. Ruby decks also can become overwhelming very quickly. Its just how you play against it. There are plenty of counters for it such as running sapphire counter or ruby or wild decks that can also match its low cost quick or quick ramping decks. It can become overwhelming but only if you let it.

htesrepus
05-06-2014, 09:24 PM
My point is the inspire cards are too powerful for the amount of mana they cost. Yes, I am aware of strategy and how to build against it, but that's beside the point.

Miyordon
05-06-2014, 09:26 PM
This is a first read for me. Someone complaining about inspire. Realize also that most inspire troops are weak for their cost, unless they have been inspired previously which means you are leaving targets on the board that you know will make others stronger. The only thing to watch for is Blessing of the Fallen. Much harder to deal with inspire decks when they have that out.

FoundInTheFlood
05-06-2014, 09:27 PM
They aren't. A 1/1 blue flyer with rage 1 is way more "overpowered" at the moment than any of the common or uncommon and maybe even the rare inspire cards. I have an inspire-only deck which I love very much, but if someone gets out creatures with more attack or more creatures faster than me in the first few turns I can't ramp up anyhing (if I don't play blessing of the fallen, that is)

ZillahEnoch
05-06-2014, 09:27 PM
If Inspire was broken, most of the competitive decks would be heavily reliant on it.
I don't think it is the case.
And the set has been played enough that if such a "broken" keyword was in it, it would be exploited right now. Inspire is just one of many viable concepts.

Revoluketion
05-06-2014, 09:44 PM
Wow this is interesting! Inspire has been agreed upon to be too slow to focus on at the moment. And if anything as a whole is underpowered! One day I hope to see it get more support but as for now it's honestly gimped too much by removal to see any dedicated play. It will only be splashed at best in the first set.

Fateanomaly
05-06-2014, 11:00 PM
It is not overpowered. It has restriction on it and it doesn't provide the bonus to itself.

Liokae
05-07-2014, 12:23 AM
If we're talking broken- can someone explain to me what the drawback is on the... Knight something or other? 3/2 flyer for 3 mana that's flying, steadfast, and lifedrain?

LLCoolDave
05-07-2014, 12:30 AM
It dies to literally every playable removal spell and trades (or worse) with any constructed playable flying creature. There is no inherent drawback, it's just very vulnerable. If we don't have at least some number of reasonably efficient troops than why bother playing any at all? If the best a beatdown deck can muster is a 2/2 into a 3/3 with no abilities, then there's no real point in not playing a control deck. Not all troops can be on the same power level. The Knight is a very efficient troop given the context of this set, but nobody has really found a good shell to put it in just yet.

Unhurtable
05-07-2014, 12:39 AM
If Inspire was broken, most of the competitive decks would be heavily reliant on it.

That is assuming that the competitive players have perfect knowledge of the game which I doubt.

Sereaphim
05-07-2014, 12:40 AM
If we're talking broken- can someone explain to me what the drawback is on the... Knight something or other? 3/2 flyer for 3 mana that's flying, steadfast, and lifedrain?

The 3/2 is a drawback.
Normally a 3 cost creature has something like 3/3, 2/4, 4/2 ....

It can be easy killed by everything that deals 2 damage like Burn, Heatwave, Ragefire, Sapper's Charge...
It can be easy blocked by flyer with 2 attack or more like Giant Corpse Fly, Angel of Dawn, Vampire king, Royal Falcon, Servant of Shathak ...
And like every troop without spellshild or invisibility it is easy target for all other troop removal.

It is a good card but has enough counter.

Edit:
Then the next problem is it requires two diamond shards.
So it is harder to make sure to have in turn three the two diamond shards in a non mono deck.
And mono Diamond decks lack the draw power and they have not the aggressive power of ruby to win fast in the early.

ZillahEnoch
05-07-2014, 12:51 AM
That is assuming that the competitive players have perfect knowledge of the game which I doubt.

I agree with you, I was oversimplifying there.
However I think you get the point I was making : Judging by the current meta, most of the troops with Inspire don't seem broken. Unless a new meta-breaking deck pops up in the future, it is safe to assume they are quite balanced for now. Even if this deck was to happen, the fact it didn't show up yet goes to show Inspire is not "obviously" broken.

hex_colin
05-07-2014, 12:51 AM
Cards with inspire are broken. For the utility that they do, they cost entirely too little mana. I recommend the programmers give this some looking into, for whatever that's worth.

You haven't played enough if you believe that.

Inspire is an awesome mechanic, it's the poster child for what CZE is trying to achieve with a fully digital TCG, but it is not broken.

Also, if you think the current Inspire troops are broken (they're not, mostly because they're generally very fragile), wait to you see one of my favorite cards from Set 2. ;)

AstaSyneri
05-07-2014, 01:15 AM
Also, if you think the current Inspire troops are broken (they're not, mostly because they're generally very fragile), wait to you see one of my favorite cards from Set 2. ;)

I'd rather see my inspired troops stomp through a dungeon :P. Set 2 can wait until after that, from my point of view.

hex_colin
05-07-2014, 01:22 AM
I'd rather see my inspired troops stomp through a dungeon :P. Set 2 can wait until after that, from my point of view.

Different teams. Very few dependencies.

That being said, the dungeon testing (including my recent conquering of Kraken's Gold ;)) is being done with Set 1/2 decks - read into that what you will.

Chiany
05-07-2014, 01:26 AM
I'd rather see my inspired troops stomp through a dungeon :P. Set 2 can wait until after that, from my point of view.

Call me greedy, but I want both ;)

Khazrakh
05-07-2014, 01:38 AM
Different teams. Very few dependencies.

That being said, the dungeon testing (including my recent conquering of Kraken's Gold ;)) is being done with Set 1/2 decks - read into that what you will.

So...Half Life 3 confirmed? ;)

meetthefuture
05-07-2014, 02:16 AM
Seing such threads, I suddenly feel so old :/

cathead
05-07-2014, 05:15 AM
Man, if you're going to claim something is "broken" and then not give more than 2 tiny sentences worth of justification for your claim, don't even bother. At least put some effort into your claims, because all it shows right now is that you don't even fully understand how the inspire cards are designed.

hashinshin
05-07-2014, 06:13 AM
Inspire punishes people who:

A. Don't kill creatures.
B. Don't end the game.

... I can't think of many decks that do that.

TJTaylor
05-07-2014, 06:22 AM
So what you mean to say is inspire punishes people who are losing?

YourOpponent
05-07-2014, 06:31 AM
If you think inspire is broken then you've probably never played a sliver deck in Magic the Gathering. So I'll gladly post a link of what slivers in MtG can do http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/arcana/521 After looking at that I'm sure you'll be thankful of how tame inspire is.

Now if inspire had a card that was 2 or 3 cost that gave spellshield....then I could see why you'd think it was broken!

hashinshin
05-07-2014, 06:41 AM
If you think inspire is broken then you've probably never played a sliver deck in Magic the Gathering. So I'll gladly post a link of what slivers in MtG can do http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/arcana/521 After looking at that I'm sure you'll be thankful of how tame inspire is.

Now if inspire had a card that was 2 or 3 cost that gave spellshield....then I could see why you'd think it was broken!

Ideas for set 2 now include...

Unhurtable
05-07-2014, 06:51 AM
I agree with you, I was oversimplifying there.
However I think you get the point I was making : Judging by the current meta, most of the troops with Inspire don't seem broken. Unless a new meta-breaking deck pops up in the future, it is safe to assume they are quite balanced for now. Even if this deck was to happen, the fact it didn't show up yet goes to show Inspire is not "obviously" broken.

Yeah sorry maybe I should've included that I essentially agree with your position that Inspire is fine. I'm just tired of seeing the "why don't pros play it then?" in forums for other games :)

Poetic
05-07-2014, 06:56 AM
Well it's a legit question. Pro type players are always going to play the best decks or try to play a deck that could counter the perceived metagame.

Think its too early to talk about what broken or not when there's no competitive scene for this game ATM.

Krond
05-07-2014, 07:16 AM
There is indeed a competitive scene,check out the hextcgpro series.

Inspire can be good, given an ideal draw, with perfect mana, and little or no removal from the opponent. There are serious drawbacks with the mechanic, though. Among the biggest is that it encourages you to run out several troops at once, and tons of people own, and are running Extinction.

Let's try not to call things "broken" when all you have for reference is a couple games in proving grounds. Broken is typically used for cards/mechanics that are either grossly under costed, severely meta game warping, or often both.

Slish
05-07-2014, 07:24 AM
Wow, inspire is basically pretty bad in the competitive scene so far. It can easily be countered and is too reliant on each other.
If anything.. inspired is underpowered in my opinion.

hashinshin
05-07-2014, 07:29 AM
Wow, inspire is basically pretty bad in the competitive scene so far. It can easily be countered and is too reliant on each other.
If anything.. inspired is underpowered in my opinion.

Set 1 should not have had extinction, IMO.

we should've had set 1, seen the power of creature spam, and then created a board wipe of appropriate power. Not just started with one where all creatures will have to be powercreeped against it.

ossuary
05-07-2014, 07:37 AM
That's silly. Of course there should be a board wipe. If anything, Hex doesn't have ENOUGH wipe (and FAR too much Flight) for the first set.

Magic had all kinds of "hit the whole board" killers and damage effects even in the first set. Wrath of God, Hurricane, Earthquake, Pestilence, and Volcanic Eruption (more situational on this one, but still valid) were all in the first set, then they added even MORE in the first expansion (Ifh-Biff Efreet, Cyclone). Magic was overflowing with mass removal. Hex has Extinction. :p

LLCoolDave
05-07-2014, 07:40 AM
There's two issues Inspire has to face in a competitive setting: You need to draw your cards in the right order for them to be effective, and you need to commit multiple cards to the board for them to have a meaningful impact at all.

The first issue is a fundamental one in the design of the mechanic. To get good value out of your inspire troops you really want to curve them from low cost to high cost. Drawing a 2 cost Inspire troop on turn 5 is a tad awkward, because it neither triggers off the troops you already deployed nor does it provide a buff to those you have already played, and on their own most of them are very mediocre to bad. This means the deck can have rather awkward opening hands and bad topdecks. This isn't a death knell by any means, but it means that any inspire focused deck fundamentally lacks consistency.

Building up a board presence is a very metagame dependent issue. There are decks where you happily curve out against, and I figure Inspire fares pretty well against most classic beatdown decks as you can probably just outpace them. Removal heavy midrange decks can just keep your growth under control and board sweepers gain massive card advantage against you. This can be partially kept in control with Blessing of the Fallen, but that seriously slows down your gameplan. Pacing a game around Blessing of the Fallen properly is fairly complicated (I'd recon it'd be one of the harder decks to play well in the metagame), and a lot of the Inspire buffs just aren't that impressive for building strong, isolated threats even with triggers from your graveyard. At that point, you might still just be outclassed by the decks you are trying to grind out with Blessing of the Fallen, not to mention that a lot of those decks have answers to it in Solitary Exile and Chaos Key as well.

There's definitely some powerful isolated cards with inspire, in particular Cerulean Mirror Knight as it offers good protection against the usual weaknesses of the strategy, but I'm afraid the card density for a proper deck might just not quite be there yet. Even if it is, it seems like a very difficult deck to build and pilot properly.

Poetic
05-07-2014, 07:47 AM
There is indeed a competitive scene,check out the hextcgpro series.

Inspire can be good, given an ideal draw, with perfect mana, and little or no removal from the opponent. There are serious drawbacks with the mechanic, though. Among the biggest is that it encourages you to run out several troops at once, and tons of people own, and are running Extinction.

Let's try not to call things "broken" when all you have for reference is a couple games in proving grounds. Broken is typically used for cards/mechanics that are either grossly under costed, severely meta game warping, or often both.

Pretty hard to have a competitive scene when the majority of the player base is limited by card pool.

Definitely agree with your last point though, too much calling things broken or should be banned around here based on casual play in proving grounds.

hex_colin
05-07-2014, 07:52 AM
There's two issues Inspire has to face in a competitive setting: You need to draw your cards in the right order for them to be effective, and you need to commit multiple cards to the board for them to have a meaningful impact at all.

The first issue is a fundamental one in the design of the mechanic. To get good value out of your inspire troops you really want to curve them from low cost to high cost. Drawing a 2 cost Inspire troop on turn 5 is a tad awkward, because it neither triggers off the troops you already deployed nor does it provide a buff to those you have already played, and on their own most of them are very mediocre to bad. This means the deck can have rather awkward opening hands and bad topdecks. This isn't a death knell by any means, but it means that any inspire focused deck fundamentally lacks consistency.

Building up a board presence is a very metagame dependent issue. There are decks where you happily curve out against, and I figure Inspire fares pretty well against most classic beatdown decks as you can probably just outpace them. Removal heavy midrange decks can just keep your growth under control and board sweepers gain massive card advantage against you. This can be partially kept in control with Blessing of the Fallen, but that seriously slows down your gameplan. Pacing a game around Blessing of the Fallen properly is fairly complicated (I'd recon it'd be one of the harder decks to play well in the metagame), and a lot of the Inspire buffs just aren't that impressive for building strong, isolated threats even with triggers from your graveyard. At that point, you might still just be outclassed by the decks you are trying to grind out with Blessing of the Fallen, not to mention that a lot of those decks have answers to it in Solitary Exile and Chaos Key as well.

There's definitely some powerful isolated cards with inspire, in particular Cerulean Mirror Knight as it offers good protection against the usual weaknesses of the strategy, but I'm afraid the card density for a proper deck might just not quite be there yet. Even if it is, it seems like a very difficult deck to build and pilot properly.

This is an actual thoughtful analysis of whether or not Inspire is broken. :) TD;DR it's not!


Pretty hard to have a competitive scene when the majority of the player base is limited by card pool.

Actually, no one was limited until a couple of weeks ago. The metagame is already fairly well established.

ossuary
05-07-2014, 08:21 AM
As usual, Dave, your posts are insightful and thought-provoking. Maybe even Inspiring. ;)

I agree that, right now at least, Inspire is a little too hit and miss because of how easy it is to disrupt. I'm sure the mechanic will continue to gain ground over the next few sets, and will eventually become a nice theme deck, like Merfolk, Goblins, and Elves (probably not as good as Goblins, probably better than Elves traditionally).

GatticusFinch
05-07-2014, 08:35 AM
With enough mana fixing (which may not actually exist at this point), I think a high quality D/R/S inspire deck could be made with the cards that do currently exist. I've tried a D/R inspire deck, and it can be done, but it will still get stomped by flight or control.

IMO, flight is currently so overpowered and plentiful that you are basically required to run one of three decks: B control; B/R control/burn; S control. S control because that is where the flight is and the other two with enough removal to fight it.

The non-S shards (particularly Wild, which I think is severely underpowered) need more reach/flight cards.

ossuary
05-07-2014, 08:44 AM
Flight is ridiculously common in this set, I've said that many times. There are more than twice as many troops with Flight in Hex set 1 than there were in Magic set 1, and there is less mass removal as well (Magic had Hurricane, Pestilence, and to a lesser extent Volcanic Eruption to help take out multiple flyers, in addition to the standard Wrath of God). We couldn't even get CZE to change Thunderbird to uncommon... that thing is fucking ridiculous in draft, where removal is much harder to come by on average and anyone not running Sapphire themselves has almost no Flight by comparison.

cferejohn
05-07-2014, 08:57 AM
That's silly. Of course there should be a board wipe. If anything, Hex doesn't have ENOUGH wipe (and FAR too much Flight) for the first set.

Magic had all kinds of "hit the whole board" killers and damage effects even in the first set. Wrath of God, Hurricane, Earthquake, Pestilence, and Volcanic Eruption (more situational on this one, but still valid) were all in the first set, then they added even MORE in the first expansion (Ifh-Biff Efreet, Cyclone). Magic was overflowing with mass removal. Hex has Extinction. :p

Not sure that early magic is really the poster child for "well thought out competitive balance". That said, I don't think one board wiper is a problem.

Returning to OP, while there still is (hopefully) enough depth in set 1 that it hasn't been completely solved yet, if there was a major mechanic that was overpowered we'd be seeing a lot of heavy inspire decks and we don't yet. It will be interesting to see what it does in the limited environment - that's the place that it seems like it will really shine (but i don't think its broken).

LLCoolDave
05-07-2014, 08:58 AM
Flight is ridiculously common in this set, I've said that many times. There are more than twice as many troops with Flight in Hex set 1 than there were in Magic set 1, and there is less mass removal as well (Magic had Hurricane, Pestilence, and to a lesser extent Volcanic Eruption to help take out multiple flyers, in addition to the standard Wrath of God). We couldn't even get CZE to change Thunderbird to uncommon... that thing is fucking ridiculous in draft, where removal is much harder to come by on average and anyone not running Sapphire themselves has almost no Flight by comparison.

Yes, because the first MtG set DEFINITELY got the balance of cards right. It clearly is THE perfect template for how to design a set of your TGC. If you want to draw comparisons, try looking at 2 Set block constructed formats in the past couple of years as those show much deeper understanding of game balance and mechanics and are much more likely to have influenced Hex then a 20 year old dabble into a then pretty much unexplored game design. A set that had both Ancestral Recall and Healing Salve as part of the same cycle is not a particularly good example of how to design your TGC.

As for flight, in constructed it does a lot less than you might think it does. Often times it's on creatures you wouldn't have blocked anyway if they didn't have flight just because you don't actually have a profitable block in that situation anyway. I don't recall any reach creatures being played specifically for their ability to block fliers in recent magic history, usually them having reach is just a rider that occasionally benefits them or makes them slightly preferable to other options. I am willing to entertain the idea that flight might be a bit harder to deal with in draft/sealed in this set than I'd prefer, but I haven't actually played enough to tell yet. It's definitely not a completely overpowering situation as is.

The idea that flight being so powerful that control is the only viable deck choice seems rather ridiculous to me.

ossuary
05-07-2014, 09:17 AM
Yeah, yeah, Wizards screwed stuff up. Of course they did. But it's also unreasonable to suggest that since they were foolish enough to equate Ancestral Recall with Healing Salve that they were incapable of having gotten anything else right at the same time. No one color or type of troop had too much board power vs all the others, and multiple colors had ways to help clear the board if things were getting out of hand. That's good balance.

Counting tokens and transformations, there are 253 troops in Hex set 1. 47 of those (20%!) have Flight. Of those 47, 20 are Sapphire (43%), and 13 of THOSE are common or uncommon, meaning you will see a LOT of them in draft. In all other shards combined, there are only 13 common/uncommon flyers, meaning even in a 2 shard deck you are roughly half as likely to have flyers available if you're not running Sapphire yourself - which makes Flight trend towards unblockable in limited. I'm sorry, but that's just not good balance.

Bells
05-07-2014, 09:22 AM
In alpha i had some fun with Saphire Flight decks... when they get their groove going they are truly death-from-above when it hits home. Also quite fun to get running. But i never got it optimized, specially when you get Flight + Rage going on.

The potential is trully high there... specially if you consider that there are only 2 cards in set One that give a creature Spellshield and one is a Sapphire 'quick' (if i recall) action.

mightygerm
05-07-2014, 09:29 AM
Counting tokens and transformations, there are 253 troops in Hex set 1. 47 of those (20%!) have Flight. Of those 47, 20 are Sapphire (43%), and 13 of THOSE are common or uncommon, meaning you will see a LOT of them in draft. In all other shards combined, there are only 13 common/uncommon flyers, meaning even in a 2 shard deck you are roughly half as likely to have flyers available if you're not running Sapphire yourself - which makes Flight trend towards unblockable in limited. I'm sorry, but that's just not good balance.

I went and checked, and it doesnt seem that bad.

http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/#!/cards/pvp=true&alpha=true&type=Troop&rarity=c&rarity=u&keyword=Flight

17 c/uc troops with the keyword flight. 13 of them are non-defensive creatures. 7! of them only have 1 health, several only have 1 damage (not counting thunderbird), and overall they have pretty poor statlines - only like 5 have decent p/t.

I feel like reach is a big omission in this set, but I dont think the flyers are overpowered. Just simply a good archetype like they have always been in drafts.

AstaSyneri
05-07-2014, 09:36 AM
Different teams. Very few dependencies.

That being said, the dungeon testing (including my recent conquering of Kraken's Gold ;)) is being done with Set 1/2 decks - read into that what you will.

Now you have plunged me into a deep, deep depression. Do you have screen shots of your run, that you sell in the dark, dark corners of the internet?

hex_colin
05-07-2014, 09:44 AM
Now you have plunged me into a deep, deep depression. Do you have screen shots of your run, that you sell in the dark, dark corners of the internet?

Paper... :( Really far along though - art for the vast majority of the cards, etc. It also has a number of interesting mechanics and persistent effects that'll probably require some development effort outside of the normal card coding process (which is pretty close to being almost completely automated), thus the lack of an electronic version... for now...

Still trying to decide how best to post about the experience here without giving anything away that I'm not supposed to. It is really awesome though - I was alternately on the edge of my seat, and standing up cheering. I also might have said "F&^k you Ben, you're useless" a non-zero number of times. ;)

Bells
05-07-2014, 09:51 AM
Yo Colin, answer what you can without giving yourself any trouble...

Did you played Solo or as a group/party? If yes, your feelings? Positive, negative or meh? No details needed.

Also, Set 2... more of the same or '' you don't even know what's coming'' ?

ossuary
05-07-2014, 09:55 AM
Set 2 is both. There's some more fleshing out of existing themes, and some of the new mechanics make the "only digital can do this" stuff we already have look like babytime frolics. :)

hex_colin
05-07-2014, 10:04 AM
Yo Colin, answer what you can without giving yourself any trouble...

Did you played Solo or as a group/party? If yes, your feelings? Positive, negative or meh? No details needed.

Also, Set 2... more of the same or '' you don't even know what's coming'' ?

Solo, it was the Kraken dungeon (Cory spoiled some of the cards in his last blog), not the raid. Although tracking all of the Inspire effects, persistent dungeon related effects, one of the Mage ability effects, etc. turned into a bit of a group effort. ;)

Overwhelmingly positive. Still thinking about it a week later. Such a rush. Whole other set of decision-making comes into play, not just "how quickly can I do X damage", including me voluntarily choosing to lose an encounter at one point! (one that I could probably have won)

Set 2 enhances the current races and archetypes, but adds enough new stuff for it to be fresh and different. Lots of TCG staples too.

Vorpal
05-07-2014, 11:00 AM
Inspire gets wiped by extinction and everyone has AA extinction cards.

Of all the overpowered complained about decks in alpha, I don't think inspire ever made the cut. It's too weak, too slow, too vulnerable to control.

Xenavire
05-07-2014, 11:07 AM
Dammit you guys, I am literally going to die from jealousy before PvE even makes it live! I wish I could make the trip to CZE, I always feel so isolated.

Hieronymous
05-07-2014, 11:15 AM
Inspire gets wiped by extinction and everyone has AA extinction cards.

Of all the overpowered complained about decks in alpha, I don't think inspire ever made the cut. It's too weak, too slow, too vulnerable to control.


On the other hand it's probably my favorite mechanic when it works. As wonky and stumbly as it is it's really fun to slap down a royal falconer and wipe the board with 10/1 swiftstriking card-on-damage fliers with speed.

AswanJaguar
05-07-2014, 11:17 AM
A Wild sweeper that hits Flight troops in Set 2 would be a game-changer. Even if it didn't kill them but grounded them permanently, it would go a long way to making Wild more competitive in Constructed and Limited.

GatticusFinch
05-07-2014, 11:31 AM
2WW - All opposing troops with flight lose flight and get permanent -1/-1.

Wild needs something like that big time. It may even need a constant that sits out and removes flight.

Krond
05-07-2014, 11:42 AM
Set 2 enhances the current races and archetypes, but adds enough new stuff for it to be fresh and different. Lots of TCG staples too.

Good to hear and looking forward to it.

We're there any Darkspire cards that you can speak of? Preferably a Darkspire removal spell or discard spell :)

And maybe another Shin'Hare lord?

AswanJaguar
05-07-2014, 12:11 PM
2WW - All opposing troops with flight lose flight and get permanent -1/-1.

Wild needs something like that big time. It may even need a constant that sits out and removes flight.

Yeah, I was thinking of something like:

5
WW
Storm Cell
Constant
When Storm Cell enters play, all troops lose Flight. If a troop gains flight or a troop with Flight enters play, destroy it.

The Coyotle Stormcallers understand that every storm is a beginning for some and an end for others.

YourOpponent
05-07-2014, 02:15 PM
Bison Wild Wings: 3WW (Rare) Troop: Beast 2/2 with Crush. Effect (1) tap Bison Wild Wings and do -1/-1 to one troop with flight this turn. If that troop dies give Bison Wild Wings flight permanently and permanent +1/+1.

GatticusFinch
05-07-2014, 02:30 PM
Bison Wild Wings: 3WW (Rare) Troop: Beast 2/2 with Crush. Effect (1) tap Bison Wild Wings and do -1/-1 to one troop with flight this turn. If that troop dies give Bison Wild Wings flight permanently and permanent +1/+1.

Flavor Text: Wings. Buffs. Shards.

Vorpal
05-07-2014, 03:01 PM
Reverse the Polarity
4
DW

All troops without flight gain flight. All troops that had flight lose it.

Showsni
05-07-2014, 03:51 PM
How about...

Thick Cover 2W
Constant
Troops with Flight cannot block troops without Flight.

Okay, that's just Dense Canopy from Magic. Interesting to see how the Magic version evolved - Chaosphere to Dense Canopy to Bower Passage...

Zomnivore
05-07-2014, 03:57 PM
OOO OOO what about a card...that forces flyers to block the large troops wild can push out? huh? yah!

Or...um...maybe something that battles large troops against flyers...or something like flyer specific removal............ but make it cheap...like maybe 2 cost.

Honestly, if I'm being 100% cereal I think wild probably has enough flexibility, in constructed. I think there may be a case to say that the options wild has aren't great, or as flexible as the other shards, but there's certainly enough other things for wild to do, to probably handle flight.

I can't honestly say if wilds too weak against evasion in draft, but it could be.

Showsni
05-07-2014, 04:04 PM
I can't honestly say if wilds too weak against evasion in draft, but it could be.

Depends on your deck. If you don't get any specific flyer hate you just have to put enough pressure on the opponent that they can't overrun you with flyers. "Evasion" in general makes for a pretty good draft deck, but you generally go Ruby/x, maybe Ruby/Blood. Lionel Flynn's ability and the Ruby "Intimidate" gem work really well together.

Fateanomaly
05-07-2014, 07:43 PM
Wild need something like spidersilk armor in mtg. Your troops get +0/+1 and can block troops with flight.

QuantumZeruul
05-07-2014, 11:17 PM
Bison Wild Wings: 3WW (Rare) Troop: Beast 2/2 with Crush. Effect (1) tap Bison Wild Wings and do -1/-1 to one troop with flight this turn. If that troop dies give Bison Wild Wings flight permanently and permanent +1/+1.

I don't know. This seems more like a hybrid card. How about we change the cost to BW3? :)

halfwing
05-08-2014, 05:38 AM
+1 for desperate need for flier hate, especially in common. I am very much of the opinion that every color should be able to do everything to some degree, just in their own unique way.

2
W
Quick action
Target creature loses flight until the end of turn.

Or a version that targets the whole board would work as well, but i doubt that would be common. But this would be really nice for wild. Still have to block to take them out, but can do it on your terms instead of theirs, which very much fits in with the flavor of other forms of wild removal, like fighting.

Sereaphim
05-08-2014, 08:01 AM
+1 for desperate need for flier hate, especially in common. I am very much of the opinion that every color should be able to do everything to some degree, just in their own unique way.

2
W
Quick action
Target creature loses flight until the end of turn.

Or a version that targets the whole board would work as well, but i doubt that would be common. But this would be really nice for wild. Still have to block to take them out, but can do it on your terms instead of theirs, which very much fits in with the flavor of other forms of wild removal, like fighting.

Why would you ever play this card if you could play turbulence ?
Two cost are to high for card like this.
And the main problem is that this cards are not flexible and get useless if your enemy don't play cards with fly.

If you want do something for wild against flyer it should look like this ...

1
W
Quick action
Target troop gets +2/+2 and Reach (This troop can block troops with flying.) this turn.

But i think wild need something totally different and that is card draw or card to protect the troops.

2
WW
Quick action
Target troop gets invincibility this turn.

5
WWW
Action
Draw cards equal to the attack of a target troop you control.

Xuin
05-08-2014, 09:21 AM
I love how this derailed into more Wild cards discussion.

I do want more, can't wait for set 2.

Again, we're completely off topic^^

Sereaphim
05-08-2014, 09:29 AM
I love how this derailed into more Wild cards discussion.

I do want more, can't wait for set 2.

Again, we're completely off topic^^

Because there is nothing to talk about it in this topic because the OP didn't give any explanation for his statement.

And wild is in my opinion the weakest color at the moment and it is interesting what other people think about it.
No flexible removal.
No card draw.
Not enough protection for his troops.
Not a good color to splash.

Bells
05-08-2014, 09:44 AM
Because there is nothing to talk about it in this topic because the OP didn't give any explanation for his statement.

And wild is in my opinion the weakest color at the moment and it is interesting what other people think about it.
No flexible removal.
No card draw.
Not enough protection for his troops.
Not a good color to splash.

But it is the fastest shard for big drops with low drawback... Ruby and Blood have big hitters too, but usually there is drawback and less options to drop them early.

Wild let's you do some really crazy stuff... but it's wild, if the Heart of cards does not like you that day, it just doesn't work...

YourOpponent
05-08-2014, 10:55 AM
I don't know. This seems more like a hybrid card. How about we change the cost to BW3? :)

I thought that at first too, but don't think they're going to be doing THAT kind of hybriding yet. Also if you think about it what the Bison is essentially doing is tearing off the wings of something it killed and adding it to itself...hmm...come to think of it that really sounds more like something Blood would do than Wild...oh well :P

TheBokononist
05-08-2014, 04:46 PM
I'll post this here for people interested in understand how (in my opinion) a good TC/CC game works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w