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LunaPark
05-09-2014, 05:36 AM
hi, i was quite slow in alpha but have been getting a bit quicker due to fiddling with stops. i thought i might give beta a try for some nice prizes. The first game i lost to my opponent twice in a row pretty quickly but the 2nd game i played i won the first round and ran out of time on the 2nd round having me forfeit the tourney.

i was hoping perhaps we can have at least 35min a tourney or 10min a round, so if u get one stale mate round it dosn't give the remaining rounds to the person with the most time. Thats my minimum though, i would prefer it to be 45min all up or 15min a round.

i really don't feel like joining any more tourneys if im just going to run out of time.

gohan661
05-09-2014, 05:42 AM
it's plenty of time, you don't need 5 minutes to play one card

Kubira
05-09-2014, 05:48 AM
It just takes practice. Aim for 10 minutes per game unless something really complex is going on. Play the AI a lot until you are comfortable with the cards. You should be able to assess your opponent's board state on their turn and have an idea of what you will do. One additional card from the draw should not cause that much rethinking on every turn.

Athravan
05-09-2014, 05:48 AM
Maybe they should add two different types of drafts, the regular, and one with an extended timer, since this is something quite a few people seem to be requesting. I personally though do not want it to be any longer; a tournament already takes quite a lot of time and I really don't want to extend that... but I see no reason why both people couldn't be pleased in this respect with two seperate queues. I guess queue times would be longer if you were splitting people up like that.

mightygerm
05-09-2014, 05:51 AM
They need to implement swiss queues asap for newer players and possibly add like 5-10 mins to the swiss draft only.

Axle
05-09-2014, 06:01 AM
Only problem is the timer being eaten for both players during the resolution of cards when no player has priority =/

Glae
05-09-2014, 07:57 AM
Maybe if the 8-4 had the normal timers and the casual had an extra 5-10 minutes? That sounds reasonable.

Could also do slightly longer draft time or deck build time if they want the casual to be more for beginners.

israel.kendall
05-09-2014, 08:02 AM
No.

chili
05-09-2014, 08:17 AM
NO it's too long as it is, learn to play quickly in real life magic you also have a timer, think quickly and think ahead, time management is a skill as important as deckbuilding and playing

The_Lannisters
05-09-2014, 10:02 AM
I'm sorry but I'm not wasting tons of time making decisions about what to play, the mechanics of the game make me waste a lot of time with all those phases, lags and whatnot.

Up until the game runs smooth as silk they certainly should look at allowing extra time.

Svenn
05-09-2014, 10:08 AM
I'm sorry but I'm not wasting tons of time making decisions about what to play, the mechanics of the game make me waste a lot of time with all those phases, lags and whatnot.

Up until the game runs smooth as silk they certainly should look at allowing extra time.
Can someone please explain to me what is making people waste time? I played 2 full drafts through the final round last night and not once did my timer (or my opponent's) ever go below 10 minutes. Even with a couple of wins through milling someone out we had plenty of time.

Poetic
05-09-2014, 10:11 AM
Some people really like to think out there plays and agonize over everything. If you've ever watched a live tournament you'll see that in action.

I've never been close to running out of time, I'm also only an average player.

The_Lannisters
05-09-2014, 10:21 AM
Can someone please explain to me what is making people waste time? I played 2 full drafts through the final round last night and not once did my timer (or my opponent's) ever go below 10 minutes. Even with a couple of wins through milling someone out we had plenty of time.

Hi Svenn, I'd like to play some more games before asserting whether the issue is as bad as it seems. Someone else has pointed out that perhaps this affects mainly people outside the US though.

Svenn
05-09-2014, 10:27 AM
Hi Svenn, I'd like to play some more games before asserting whether the issue is as bad as it seems. Someone else has pointed out that perhaps this affects mainly people outside the US though.
What I'm trying to figure out is if it's actually slow play or if it's maybe slow PCs or slow internet connections or something. I run a fairly fast connection on a brand new, very fast PC so it could be that's why I'm not seeing this stuff. If it's slow play though... well, time management is an important skill for drafting.

MatWith1T
05-09-2014, 10:33 AM
Every 1 minute they add to the round timer is 6 minutes added to the max total tournament time (1 minute for you, 1 for opponent X 3 rounds). Draft + Deck Building + Matches is already a potential 4 hour event; I don't see how making them longer adds to anyone's enjoyment.

Maybe for constructed tournies (ie no draft or deckbuilding), especially swiss...

LunaPark
05-09-2014, 12:41 PM
hi The_Lannisters glad im not the only one asking for more time. I never thought about it being my internet connection which is quite a possibility, im in Australia on a wireless internet. My computer is pretty fast.

well i guess i'll just have to sucker it up, and try to play faster. I never had this problem in mtgo tourneys.
oh btw my opponent was only 6min behind me.

chili
05-09-2014, 12:47 PM
hi The_Lannisters glad im not the only one asking for more time. I never thought about it being my internet connection which is quite a possibility, im in Australia on a wireless internet. My computer is pretty fast.

well i guess i'll just have to sucker it up, and try to play faster. I never had this problem in mtgo tourneys.
oh btw my opponent was only 6min behind me.

6 minutes is actually a whole lot, again i think your are all slow playing and perhaps hae to many priority stops enabled, learn to play quicker

GatticusFinch
05-09-2014, 12:56 PM
The timer runs down at incorrect times, which is causing lots of the problems people are having with completing games on time--your time running down when an opponent is selecting or looking at cards in your hand, both timers running at the same time, losing 5-10 seconds per phase when you don't even have stops set up for that phase, etc. They probably should increase the timer until they get all those issues solved.

Vorpal
05-09-2014, 07:27 PM
Welp, drafted an artifact deck with eurig robomancer and the technician that pumps robot attack by 1 for 2 resources.

Finally got to see what everyone was complaining about with the timer. Up until now I've had plenty of time.

The game went on a really long time - we each only had a couple cards left in our deck.

I won.

We each had less than 4 minutes left on the clock. (This is after the first game)

The next game was us both just passing furiously in order to try to be the guy with more clock left when the sand eventually ran out.

He succeeded at this, having started with a small lead.

So, despite winning zero games, he advanced to the next round, and I did not, even though I was the only one who had won a game, purely on the strength of the timer. That left a really bad taste in my mouth. It should not work that way.

Timer should be a tie breaker, not a decider all by itself. Right now it can easily be gamed. Of course...it could possibly be gamed going the other way too.

I don't think increasing the timer will help. That just means you run into the same situation slightly later, while making the tournament possibly take exponentially longer.

YourOpponent
05-09-2014, 07:48 PM
I was in a tournament last night where both of us were experienced players and it was a control deck vs. control deck. Even after making it auto pass on some of the phases I still ran out of time on round 2 and also my opponent was at 7 minutes. Sometimes the turns really do take more time due to having to calculate how much damage you could do if you use that stormcall now and whether or not you should save it for another turn or 2...especially when combining that with a griffon and so forth.

From playing some TCG's at a professional level I have noticed that the more time you use calculating current damage and damage potential for future turns adds can take considerable time even when you're familiar with the costs of removal cards of shard types and so forth from each set. I'd think 30 minutes each side for the first match and adding another 10 minutes time to each match for that round would be fair and balance things out. Is that more time than MtG sure, but this game has more potential than MtG which involves doing more calculation too.

Especially when it comes to cards like Counter Spell...you really want to think about whether you want to counter the card they just played or hold on to that card and play it in a few turns later.

Rendakor
05-09-2014, 09:40 PM
Gameplay speed is just a factor of experience. As you learn all the cards in the set, get better at combat math, etc. you will play faster. I've never had my timer run below 10 minutes in a tourney.

If they want to make Swiss more casual friendly and increase the match timer, that's fine because Swiss attracters less experienced players. But leave 5-3-2-2 (and the eventual 8-4) alone.

funktion
05-09-2014, 09:47 PM
The very first draft I played went to the bitter end and each player had just over one minute left on their clocks. Ingenuity engine REALLY drags out the game. Even if you're not spending any time making decisions it takes a while to find the cards you want to click on when there are 8 hex engines and 5 ivory pawns or something.

Being able to f6 the turn would go a long way, as well as personally customize what triggers you would like to auto-pass on.

Edit: most rounds I play end with both players having over 20 minutes left. There is plenty of time, they REALLY do not need to add more time, they just need to speed up the triggers etc...

chromus
05-09-2014, 10:07 PM
Being able to f6 the turn would go a long way, as well as personally customize what triggers you would like to auto-pass on.
There is plenty of time, they REALLY do not need to add more time, they just need to speed up the triggers etc...
This.

Simo46
05-09-2014, 10:15 PM
I've played two best of 3 matches now and one only timed out because my deck didn't save and I ended up with a 150 card deck full of every shard type. I was basically drawing a useful card every 3 turns and my opponent got jack as well so that first game took forever. I fixed it for the second match but I got time out killed in the third unfortunately. Hoping for at least a draft refund.

Liokae
05-09-2014, 10:43 PM
I'm fine with the match timer, or would even be fine with it being shorter... I just want there to be a *turn* timer when it runs out, rather than being an instant loss.

YourOpponent
05-09-2014, 10:50 PM
Also another thing that really takes a lot of time is using The Transcended. In draft that used a HUGE amount of time. Sure you can plan a little bit about what you would like to use, but that changes quite a bit based off of what your opponent did too...and you have to manually search through the cards. That probably took me 3 minutes each match alone.

Alcifer
05-09-2014, 10:54 PM
hi The_Lannisters glad im not the only one asking for more time. I never thought about it being my internet connection which is quite a possibility, im in Australia on a wireless internet. My computer is pretty fast.


Australia here too, though not on a wireless connection. I don't think I'm that slow of a player (in fact I think I probably rush more then I should) but I just about had a panic attack on the third game of a tournament when I noticed I was almost down to two minutes while my opponent still had around seven left. I started mashing resolve at that point and looking at the clock and noticed it was still taking off three to six seconds every time after it was no longer my action. Adding that up over the course of the game that's a lot of time being "stolen."

shocker455
05-09-2014, 11:16 PM
in swiss, fine add more time for new players, but the current time should be 5minutes shorter.

Also its rather annoying when the other player is multitasking. Iv had multiple draft games were after game 1 my time is 25-26minutes left, and the other guy only has 10....

Gorgol
05-09-2014, 11:30 PM
in swiss, fine add more time for new players, but the current time should be 5minutes shorter.

Also its rather annoying when the other player is multitasking. Iv had multiple draft games were after game 1 my time is 25-26minutes left, and the other guy only has 10....

was it per chance against someone who streams on twitch? There's a few casters who definitely almost time out all the time :p

Yoss
05-10-2014, 12:20 AM
Draft already takes up to 4 hours. Please do not extend the time.

Saeijou
05-10-2014, 01:37 AM
i would like to have 45 minutes timer... sometimes it's really hard to be comfortable in the third game...
its a tactic game... sometimes you have to think ;)

shocker455
05-10-2014, 01:57 AM
i would like to have 45 minutes timer... sometimes it's really hard to be comfortable in the third game...
its a tactic game... sometimes you have to think ;)

What use are tactics if you cant use them when under pressure?

Time is a valuable resource, use it wisely!

Gorgol
05-10-2014, 02:14 AM
i would like to have 45 minutes timer... sometimes it's really hard to be comfortable in the third game...
its a tactic game... sometimes you have to think ;)

so, 30 minutes more per round x 3 rounds = 1.5 hours longer, no thanks.

Chiany
05-10-2014, 02:18 AM
30 minutes is more then enough, especially in limited.

like others have said, learn the cards before playing and practice practice practice!

dasn00b
05-10-2014, 02:21 AM
I think the best solution would be a new category of tournament with longer match timers.

From watching HEX videos and streams I can tell that some people have no problems at all with lag and such, which is great -- they shouldn't be forced to be held up with only drafts that have longer timers. OTOH, even being located in the US with a solid DSL connection and a decent computer for PC gaming, every single game of HEX that I have played since alpha -- be it vs AI, vs another player, or a tournament -- I've had significant lagging issues. I play as quickly as I can when the plays are obvious, but even my quickest wins eat up 7-8 minutes of my clock thanks to the lag. So if I have longer, close games in tournament matches, I know I'm in trouble against the clock come game 3 thanks solely to the lag, and no amount of time management skill can help against that.

YourOpponent
05-10-2014, 02:45 AM
I think the best solution would be a new category of tournament with longer match timers.

From watching HEX videos and streams I can tell that some people have no problems at all with lag and such, which is great -- they shouldn't be forced to be held up with only drafts that have longer timers. OTOH, even being located in the US with a solid DSL connection and a decent computer for PC gaming, every single game of HEX that I have played since alpha -- be it vs AI, vs another player, or a tournament -- I've had significant lagging issues. I play as quickly as I can when the plays are obvious, but even my quickest wins eat up 7-8 minutes of my clock thanks to the lag. So if I have longer, close games in tournament matches, I know I'm in trouble against the clock come game 3 thanks solely to the lag, and no amount of time management skill can help against that.

Exactly. I'm fine with that and that's how I play too. I've only actually timed out 2-3 times since January in tournaments (two times in the past month) Mainly from being sapphire which has a lot of control cards...which requires more thought. Also I don't know if it's my laptop or what, but even when I'm spamming spacebar between phases about 6-8 seconds still go by...and I'm pretty sure that can't possibly be their intention.

shiningideal
05-10-2014, 05:08 AM
There are definitely some problems with the timer coding right now. I've had a game where my timer never stopped counting no matter the priority in the game. But even with that said.. against other players I've rarely had a best of three where there wasn't 20 minutes left on my timer.

Part of competitive play is building a deck that can win in the time allotted. Just because you can build a combo deck that can win over 40 minutes of gameplay per match doesn't mean its designed to be in a competitive play environment.

poizonous
05-10-2014, 05:25 AM
Yeah the overall problem with the time limit right now is the fact that your timer runs down even while you have no priority which actually chips away at a ton of time.

I am very experienced TCG player as most know by now and I know exactly what I am going to do each turn but yet I am still getting matches where I have 3 minutes left on my timer when really I should have almost 12-14 if the timer was running right, so I can see this being an issue for players with less experience.

With that being said I still dont see a need for the timer to be extended, rather just hoping the timer gets fixed and gives newer players every second they need of that 30 minutes.

Eklypz
05-11-2014, 03:55 PM
I am at the point where I am no longer going to pay for drafts until they do something, having lost 4 games to the timer. they need to play mtgo or something to learn how to do it right. I shouldn't have to click resolve when I have zero shards or no monsters on the field to declare as blockers. I seem to lose about 3-4 minutes just waiting for buttons to pop up. very frustrating!

Axle
05-11-2014, 04:37 PM
Yeah the time eaten sucks but you're still really at fault if it happened to you 4 times. You still have plenty of time to play. Are you drafting decks with no win conditions? =l

Diesbudt
05-11-2014, 04:39 PM
Each set of 3 games has never taken more than 15 minutes for me in every draft game. Unless you play/build a stall deck against another which is silly in draft, than I believe time is fine personally.

Xenavire
05-11-2014, 05:06 PM
I am at the point where I am no longer going to pay for drafts until they do something, having lost 4 games to the timer. they need to play mtgo or something to learn how to do it right. I shouldn't have to click resolve when I have zero shards or no monsters on the field to declare as blockers. I seem to lose about 3-4 minutes just waiting for buttons to pop up. very frustrating!

I hate to say this, but if you have lost 4 times in draft due to the timer, it is entirely your fault (or your internet connection, which is not CZE's fault.)

I have played 9 drafts so far, and every single match (bar one) has had at least 10 minutes left in total. The one exception was a freak game that took 15 minutes a side (where I nearly drew out using Chimes and a lot of removal/pseudo removal) and my opponent just scraped a win over me. I then came back from that loss to get 2/1 in the next two games, and won in the last minute of my opponents timer.

Very few people are so slow that they are losing to the timers, and those that do are usually very new and tend to lose the match regardless. You should really look at your own playstyles and strategies if they are leading to repeated losses.

Eierdotter
05-11-2014, 05:10 PM
tourneys take ages already...
learn the cards before you start a tourney so you do not need to read every card that gets played.

I hope we get a lower timer like 20min when they fix the cards, so they do not eat player time while resolving

Eklypz
05-11-2014, 06:01 PM
I'll be first to admit to being new to this TCG, but if I just had 4m each of those games I would have had a chance to win. they were all in game 3. I am sure I will be faster later on but really, there is so many UI issues with the timer, there is legitimate cause for concern and hope that it will be fixed for the next newbie in open beta so that bad reviews do not arise. It is a great game but the interface is frustrating when they really aren't reinventing the wheel here (the mechanics are pretty dang close to MTGO) and hope that the voice of newbies can be heard so that it can get better during and after beta. We all want this game to succeed so that in addition to having fun playing, we can have continual influx of new players investing in the game for its health and value of our collections.

ZillahEnoch
05-11-2014, 06:21 PM
Being able to switch off animations would go a long way time-wise.

w00dy101
05-11-2014, 06:49 PM
Yes, as the person before me said the animations and just general slowness of the game client is a factor. I am hoping the client will get much more crisp as the beta goes on but, right now it feels like playing through soup. Now I haven't had any issues with timer myself but, I think trimming some of the effects and making the UI much more crisp and responsive will go a long way for timers.

As an example of crispness in the UI look at tapping lands in MTGO. I just recently started playing online and I was very pleasantly surprised how crisp just tapping the lands was in their client. (I have only used beta client.)

Diesbudt
05-11-2014, 07:15 PM
Yes, as the person before me said the animations and just general slowness of the game client is a factor. I am hoping the client will get much more crisp as the beta goes on but, right now it feels like playing through soup. Now I haven't had any issues with timer myself but, I think trimming some of the effects and making the UI much more crisp and responsive will go a long way for timers.

As an example of crispness in the UI look at tapping lands in MTGO. I just recently started playing online and I was very pleasantly surprised how crisp just tapping the lands was in their client. (I have only used beta client.)

What would turning animations off do? Remember they go off for both players, so if 1 has his set to off and the other to on, you will still have to wait for all animations to finish. Even then I honestly cannot think the animations took long at all, 2 seconds tops.

Diesbudt
05-11-2014, 07:19 PM
I'll be first to admit to being new to this TCG, but if I just had 4m each of those games I would have had a chance to win. they were all in game 3. I am sure I will be faster later on but really, there is so many UI issues with the timer, there is legitimate cause for concern and hope that it will be fixed for the next newbie in open beta so that bad reviews do not arise. It is a great game but the interface is frustrating when they really aren't reinventing the wheel here (the mechanics are pretty dang close to MTGO) and hope that the voice of newbies can be heard so that it can get better during and after beta. We all want this game to succeed so that in addition to having fun playing, we can have continual influx of new players investing in the game for its health and value of our collections.

Well right now the tournament already takes a max of ~ 30 minutes (draft 3 packs, 10 min a pack) + 15 minutes (create a deck) and then the 3 hours (max 1 hour each round) which is close to 4 hours. Which is already a long time. So the time cannot go any farther, and if someone is struggling here play against others in proving grounds/AI until they get the flow of the game. I cannot imagine it working out for anyone new jumping into any TCG tournament and doing well. And even in real drafts there are time limits.

Only advice i can give is there is 2-3 spots the priority bar flashes and you have to confirm, which 95-99% of the time you will never use. You can set these off so they dont trigger for you quickening the game a littler bit.

Yoss
05-11-2014, 08:54 PM
I still agree that the timer problems are a huge deal. I do not agree on extending the time limit. Instead, CZE just needs to prioritize these timer bugs over almost all other current bugs. Other tournament modes can wait for this, as can most card bugs. Once the timer is working right, 30 minutes per match per player is almost too long.

Eklypz
05-11-2014, 09:11 PM
I actually don't have any stops set for my opponent unless I need them but when they have effects like making another bunny every turn it can add up. something like auto-resolving card effects would be nice and not having animations or some other way to help slower computers compensate would be great too. If they can just make it fair for those of us that may not have real nice computers or fast internet then see no need to increase timer. I am sure they have stats to see how many people time out in games. From talking on game chat it seems like many have had similiar issues. I am simply pointing out that there is indeed an issue to fix and it is not optimal but understand that is what beta is for to fix those things so voices need to be heard.

sukebe
05-12-2014, 12:26 AM
Add me in with the group that does not want more time added to rounds in tournaments.

However, I agree that they really, really need to get the timer bugs fixed. I assume it is lag of some sort but I too tend to loose 2-5 seconds at the end of each of my turns when no one has priority. If this affects all players equally it isnt that huge a deal but if it only affects some of us then it is a big deal.

adm0104
05-14-2014, 05:11 PM
Completely agree with OP. I suggest adding at least another 10 minutes to the timer.

If a round lasts only 2 games, 30 minutes is plenty. However when a round goes to a third game, I find that the third game is often lost by whoever runs out of time first. Winning/losing this way just feels cheap.

I also find that the current timer makes me rush through decisions and I end up making stupid mistakes that I would not otherwise make. I realize that practice can make it easier to make quick decisions, but do we really want to give such a huge additional advantage to those that know the cards well? I feel that game knowledge is its own reward and giving even more advantages to those who are well-versed in individual cards' mechanics just compounds that advantage.

zadies
05-14-2014, 05:55 PM
No more time if people decide to participate in a competitive format and use lack of knowledge as excuse for their loss it means they should practice and gain that knowledge before competing.

negativeZer0
05-14-2014, 06:14 PM
NO

Turtlewing
05-15-2014, 06:17 AM
What if instead of adding time, they changed how the existing time is allocated?

For example:
Right now running out of time means you lose. What if instead when a player's timer hit 0 the game enter's "sudden death" where both players auto-pass in 20 seconds and consume time from the remaining non-empty timer. If the game doesn't end before the remaining timer expires the player who's timer initially ran out looses the game.

That way the maximum round time remains the same but it should cut down on cases where the superior board position loses due to running out of time.

I think this would also feel closer to how paper TCGs handle time as they generally don't use a chess clock.

LunaPark
05-15-2014, 11:45 AM
interesting idea turtle, most will be happy i've played a few more games and have not ran out of time tho came close, even won a game a moment ago.

i still would like added time so i dont feel pressured. Fixing the lost time from animations and priorities would be even better.

poizonous
05-15-2014, 03:08 PM
I think I came up with a solution. INSTEAD of each player getting 30 minutes per round you do this.

The round timer will still be at 1 hour for this thought.

Each player gets 15 minutes per game. And if the 1 hour round timer expires while someone is in game 3, the person with the lowest life loses.

This option Guarantees a round 3 will be played so there will be no ties to worry about. Also guarantees People who draft decks that might need 12 minutes a round a fair chance to win the round while not timing them out in game 2.

Edit: And in case of ties when 1 hour expires in game 3, they play until the next person takes damage, which would be really interesting to see a game decided by a Malfunctioning War Bot ping

EntropyBall
05-15-2014, 03:21 PM
I don't want a longer timer, I do want timer bugs fixed, and I can say with certainty that the speed of your computer affects how bad the timer lag is. I play both on my laptop and my desktop, the desktop has a worse CPU but better GPU and is quite quick for displaying/accepting the pass priority button. On my laptop its so laggy that if I'm not careful at the end of combat I will skip my 2nd main phase. It will very briefly display a Pass Priority button for the stops that I've cleared, and if I'm quick I hit Space to end combat, only to have that key press skip my 2nd main phase. Needless to say, I don't play tournaments on my laptop.

BTRC
05-16-2014, 04:12 AM
The current timer also makes it impractical to chat during a tourney round. Might as well be playing against an AI. Plus on the Mac, the timer is awful. It runs down both players simultaneously, it runs you down during your opponent's action, etc. Watching my timer tick down when someone does a Chronic Madness on me is doubly annoying. Also, the timer gives a benefit to particular deck styles. If someone is attacking me with 20 bunnies, it is a lot faster for them to click on them as attackers than it is for me to click and zoom on each particular one to find the ones I need to block the most (where's that damned Bucktooth Commander?). Similarly, I am discouraged from doing Replicator's Gambit on a creature that has a come into play special effect. How long does it take to resolve 6 Buccaneers? A while. On the other hand, Cosmic Totem seems to take no time at all for either player. I had no deck left from milling, used the totem, and we watched my deck rebuild one card at a time with no timer moving on either side. Which is probably how the animations should work. The timer should run for decision making, not for animations that resolve a card.

Turtlewing
05-16-2014, 04:29 AM
I think I came up with a solution. INSTEAD of each player getting 30 minutes per round you do this.

The round timer will still be at 1 hour for this thought.

Each player gets 15 minutes per game. And if the 1 hour round timer expires while someone is in game 3, the person with the lowest life loses.

This option Guarantees a round 3 will be played so there will be no ties to worry about. Also guarantees People who draft decks that might need 12 minutes a round a fair chance to win the round while not timing them out in game 2.

Edit: And in case of ties when 1 hour expires in game 3, they play until the next person takes damage, which would be really interesting to see a game decided by a Malfunctioning War Bot ping

The main problem I have with this is the edit. It lets you go over the hour and could potentially end up the same as simply extending the timer to 45 minutes instead of the current 30.

IMO if your OK accepting that the round could go that long why not just extend the existing timer?

It's also a bit more complicated and changes the win conditions for the 3rd game (you can win round 3 with a pure life-gain deck with no conventional win-con).

Turtlewing
05-16-2014, 04:36 AM
interesting idea turtle, most will be happy i've played a few more games and have not ran out of time tho came close, even won a game a moment ago.

i still would like added time so i dont feel pressured. Fixing the lost time from animations and priorities would be even better.

I think we can all agree that fixing the bugs and making the timer exclude non-intercative time (animations) is unambiguously good and the single best thing that can be done to help.

Personally I think an hour should be plenty for a 2 of 3 match in a tournament setting. The main issue I have is that I'm not sure it's really fair to say "each player gets half the match". It sounds fair on a simple read but it biases the gameplay against decks that require more interaction in a way that I'm not convinced is entirely intended.

BKCshah
05-16-2014, 06:50 AM
It's not that you are getting 'half' the match time. Its that you are getting up to 30 minutes to make all the decisions that you need to in a best of 3. Knowing that you need to account for various things. Maybe you need to concede that 10% chance to win game if you are running short.

I should not have to 'loan' another player my time if they cannot make actions and decisions in a timely fashion. The rules are known from the start. (well the 5 min AFK is a little more vague than it should be).

Silent
05-16-2014, 08:55 AM
Absolutely no extra time! There is already plenty and its annoying enough at times to sit and wait 45min for the next round to start.

Quasari
05-16-2014, 09:45 AM
It's not that you are getting 'half' the match time. Its that you are getting up to 30 minutes to make all the decisions that you need to in a best of 3. Knowing that you need to account for various things. Maybe you need to concede that 10% chance to win game if you are running short.

I should not have to 'loan' another player my time if they cannot make actions and decisions in a timely fashion. The rules are known from the start. (well the 5 min AFK is a little more vague than it should be).

I actual don't concede a game if the opponents clock is lower than mine. I know I'm a jerk in that regard. Haven't got a time out yet though.

BKCshah
05-16-2014, 10:03 AM
Quasari - my comment was in regard to if you were losing a match and getting short on time. I have no issues winning by time. If you take unnecessary actions to waste more of the opponents clock, that is wrong imo.

i.e. pumping a creature end of turn for no reason.

poizonous
05-16-2014, 10:12 AM
The main problem I have with this is the edit. It lets you go over the hour and could potentially end up the same as simply extending the timer to 45 minutes instead of the current 30.

IMO if your OK accepting that the round could go that long why not just extend the existing timer?

It's also a bit more complicated and changes the win conditions for the 3rd game (you can win round 3 with a pure life-gain deck with no conventional win-con).

No Turtle the match couldnt go over an hour. The round time limit would still halt the game at 1 hour. I agree with people that just because a match limit is 1 hour doesnt mean I should have to share 30 minutes a piece. I could build a deck that is designed to time out the match after 1 win but because my 30 minutes are being used in that 1 game I end up losing the match

poizonous
05-16-2014, 10:14 AM
Right now drafting cards like Eternal Youth is a lose condition, all it does is gain you life and waste more time from your clock, Stall decks are supposed to be a valid form of drafting but when you lose 30 minutes and forfeit the match it isnt really fair when you really never lost. so that is my main argument against 30 minutes each player.

Turtlewing
05-16-2014, 10:40 AM
No Turtle the match couldnt go over an hour. The round time limit would still halt the game at 1 hour. I agree with people that just because a match limit is 1 hour doesnt mean I should have to share 30 minutes a piece. I could build a deck that is designed to time out the match after 1 win but because my 30 minutes are being used in that 1 game I end up losing the match

if the rimer runs out and the players are tied for life, you invoke the "in case of ties" clause from the edit which says you keep playing until one of them takes damage.

That means the timer doesn't always end the match at 1 hour.

poizonous
05-16-2014, 10:44 AM
I really doubt that it would take much more than another minute or 2. Like in MtG tournaments, round timer ends, if they are tied they play 5 more turns each and game is over. I really dont see the complaint people are having with the round taking too long, one they implement stuff to do in between rounds I can care less how long rounds take, the only problem with it right now is the lack of things to do in between rounds

Turtlewing
05-16-2014, 10:54 AM
I really doubt that it would take much more than another minute or 2. Like in MtG tournaments, round timer ends, if they are tied they play 5 more turns each and game is over. I really dont see the complaint people are having with the round taking too long, one they implement stuff to do in between rounds I can care less how long rounds take, the only problem with it right now is the lack of things to do in between rounds

As a hypothetical, two people could collaborate to keep a round going indefinitely (well for a long time at least) and your system has no way to stop them.

In a card shop the judge would notice and they'd both get disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct but in Hex the server won't be able to make the determination (not all the consequences of digital only are fun new card design spaces).

poizonous
05-16-2014, 10:58 AM
Well also Turtle, once Spectating is in the game CZE could have judge like people watching over games at the deadline and determining which one is the winner by board state

Baramoz
07-06-2014, 09:05 PM
I haven't read every messages in this thread so maybe those had already been discussed before.

I have played many training games before going to the draft room. Even with this training time I have lost my 2 drafts in the first round because of the clock. I totally understand that player with ultra aggressive games that won 2-0 dosn't want to wait more between rounds but loosing to the clock is really frustrating. I'm at a point where I don't want to play any more draft as I'm pretty sure I won't be able to go past first round.

So there is some ideas to resolve this issue.
- removing animations for the draft games and keep them for casual games.
- resetting the clock if under 10 minutes to 10 minutes for both player if the first 2 games were 1-1.

Yoss
07-06-2014, 11:48 PM
They need to fix the timers, not extend them (there are multiple bugs, like the animations thing). Once the timers are working right, they could actually SHORTEN them a fair bit.

Matches need to be capped at an hour no matter what. Four hours to draft is already a TON of time.

funktion
07-07-2014, 12:20 AM
Holy necro...

Yeah there's not really any room to extend them further. If it is user related stuff (rather than client or lag) then you should really work on getting rid of your "analysis paralysis." If it is taking you that long to make a decision you should take a step back.

-Don't be afraid to make bad plays, that is how you'll learn from them.
-Is taking that 3-4 minutes to decide on what play you need to make actually helping your win%? If so great, with time you're gonna speed up for sure. If not though, then see the point directly above.
-Forcing yourself to play faster you'll have less time to doubt yourself and second guess what is the right play. Play faster and you'll realize right away when you make a mistake rather than playing slow and not realizing the mistakes because you were so caught up in play that might not have mattered at all.

meetthefuture
07-07-2014, 01:05 AM
hi, i was quite slow in alpha but have been getting a bit quicker due to fiddling with stops. i thought i might give beta a try for some nice prizes. The first game i lost to my opponent twice in a row pretty quickly but the 2nd game i played i won the first round and ran out of time on the 2nd round having me forfeit the tourney.

i was hoping perhaps we can have at least 35min a tourney or 10min a round, so if u get one stale mate round it dosn't give the remaining rounds to the person with the most time. Thats my minimum though, i would prefer it to be 45min all up or 15min a round.

i really don't feel like joining any more tourneys if im just going to run out of time.

If you can't play fast enough to finish in 30 minutes - you deserve to lose. period.

shrinkmaster
07-07-2014, 04:20 AM
If you can't play fast enough to finish in 30 minutes - you deserve to lose. period.

i agree. currently the amount of big decisions you have to make per game is really really limited. maybe that will change with the new set and/or if they implement new rules/card effects, but right now players almost got too much time.

striderz
07-07-2014, 07:19 AM
I want the timer reduced, so games go quicker. 90% of the time I finish my match and I'm waiting in the lobby for the other games to finish. A speed play queue would be good once it goes into open beta & they fix the timing bugs, 15-20 min to finish 3 games.

Vorpal
07-07-2014, 09:41 AM
Drafts absolutely do not need to take more time. They already take an almost prohibitively long amount of time as it is.

They need to fix timers so that they aren't counting down for animations, the priority window isn't even up yet, etc.

Then you should have plenty of time.

If you're concerned about running out of time in draft, don't draft complicated slow dwarf decks :D That's the only time I've run out of time. And yeah, it sucked being up a game but losing the whole match due to time.

Also if you are a new player, stay the hell away from single elimination drafts! Play swiss.

As a new player you are almost guaranteed to be knocked out in the first round in single elimination.

Baramoz
07-07-2014, 04:36 PM
I'm not a new player. I played TCG since summer 1994 and digital ones since 2008. It's the very first time I lost at the clock. I have played a lot of casual games in Hex (start with the alpha release) before going in draft as I had to be sure to know the interface well. Then first draft I loose at 1-1 because I had no more time left. Second one I was 1-1 with only 2 minutes left for the third game. The issue here is not the time needed to take decision but the animations. Even a "play ressource - passed" turn will take more than 1 minute to the clock. Those kind of turn had to be done in less than 10 secondes.

I don't think that fixing timers will be the right solution as it will make the game even longer adding the animation time to the 2x30 minutes. The perfect move would be to disable those animations in competitive queues.

Yoss
07-07-2014, 05:56 PM
I don't think that fixing timers will be the right solution as it will make the game even longer adding the animation time to the 2x30 minutes. The perfect move would be to disable those animations in competitive queues.

I believe I said before (if not, I will now) that once the timers are fixed, they should also be made shorter to account for the "upkeep" tasks (animations, synching, etc).

Gorgol
07-07-2014, 06:13 PM
I believe I said before (if not, I will now) that once the timers are fixed, they should also be made shorter to account for the "upkeep" tasks (animations, synching, etc).

So it will effectively be the same? Or are they broken in other ways besides animations, syncing, etc?

Baramoz
07-07-2014, 07:03 PM
Made the timer shorter AND remove animations frame. You're right when you say that 25 minutes are enough but only if you really have 25 minutes of play. Now I think I will wait for the timer fix before playing any more draft. I hope it will come soon as this game is a really good one.

Yoss
07-07-2014, 09:49 PM
So it will effectively be the same? Or are they broken in other ways besides animations, syncing, etc?

The goals are:
1. Matches never take more than 1 hour.
2. Players never lose time off their clocks except when they have ability to actually do something.
3. The amount of time where neither player can do anything is minimized.

So yes, if they fix #2 then they will need to shorten the timers and/or do well with #3 in order to still meet #1.

Werlix
07-08-2014, 01:57 PM
The goals are:
1. Matches never take more than 1 hour.
2. Players never lose time off their clocks except when they have ability to actually do something.
3. The amount of time where neither player can do anything is minimized.

So yes, if they fix #2 then they will need to shorten the timers and/or do well with #3 in order to still meet #1.

The answer to solve all 3 problems here is to allow the players to continue performing actions while animations are still in effect, effectively "stacking" animations to complete one after the other. Eg: As you are drawing your card for the turn you should be able to click a card to play it then click pass priority to advance to combat phase, all while the animation for the card draw is still completing. That'd be nice anyway :) This could create problems I guess where you need to interact with the thing that's animating, eg you need to play the card you are drawing...

Viziroth
07-10-2014, 01:08 AM
They definitely need to make it so the clock doesn't run during animations and between turns. If the AI's turn clock ever dips below 28 minutes something is wrong because the AI should be making decisions in less than a second, 2 seconds top.