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View Full Version : Is there a timer? Why aren't there warnings ?How does forfeit work?



jcalton
05-10-2014, 12:39 PM
My opponent and I had some stalemate-type games and they ran long (1 win each, obviously) and suddenly the match just ended with a forfeit for me.
I can figure out this had to be due to time, but why do I have to figure it out? Is there a timer somewhere? And even if there is, why wouldn't there be like 10 and 5 minute warnings or something?

So does anyone know how forfeit works?
I'm hoping that I lost because I had less life, but that is an assumption.

Edit: Oh, and when the match just suddenly it ends, it should probably give a message that you forfeited due to time. Again, I can figure that out, but why make it non-obvious?

israel.kendall
05-10-2014, 12:46 PM
So you never wondered what those clocks were ticking down on the left side of the screen?

Mr.Funsocks
05-10-2014, 01:40 PM
The UI does need some more feedback on things like this and all, but really... what Kendall said above applies too...

jcalton
05-13-2014, 11:58 AM
So you never wondered what those clocks were ticking down on the left side of the screen?The clocks ticking on the left side of the screen tell me how long until the tournament round is over?
I don't think so.

Turtlewing
05-13-2014, 12:39 PM
The clocks ticking on the left side of the screen tell me how long until the tournament round is over?
I don't think so.

They tell you how much time each player has left for the round. When a player runs out of time that player looses.

Makizushi
05-13-2014, 12:44 PM
The clocks ticking on the left side of the screen tell me how long until the tournament round is over?
I don't think so.

Yes. They do.

As TurtleWing points out, the theoretical maximum duration of one tournament round (max of three games) is 60 minutes: 30 minutes per player.

Showsni
05-13-2014, 01:11 PM
The five minute inactivity timer (also on the left) is a little more unclear; it's the bit just under the clocks. But yeah, when your clock reaches zero, you lose.

If you think a round is going to go long, and you're in a game you can't win, sometimes it's better to forfeit quickly to have more time for the final game. Obviously don't do this if you're already a game down, though.

Marsden
05-13-2014, 02:27 PM
The clocks ticking on the left side of the screen tell me how long until the tournament round is over?
I don't think so.

What do you think they tell you?

jcalton
05-13-2014, 02:31 PM
The UI does need some more feedback on things like this and all, but really... what Kendall said above applies too...
Implementing some basics like pop-ups, flashing, color changes, etc would be fairly straightforward. Ideally just make it optional and configurable, like the phase stops.

Freebird_Falcon
05-13-2014, 02:38 PM
I kind of wish they implemented an out of time turns rule like paper mtg. Once a player runs out of sanctioned time, 5 turns play out. The opponent uses their normal clock and the timed out player gets 30 seconds (maybe 1 min?) per turn. Turn time restriction applies to opponent if also runs out of time during the last 5.

Losing immediately due to timeout has always irked me.

jcalton
05-13-2014, 02:39 PM
What do you think they tell you?
Honestly, I thought that was how long I had per individual match (which I never understood why it was so long) since it's the exact same 30:00 timer that we use in individual matches in the proving grounds. I've played maybe 400 proving ground matches vs 4 tournaments, so I think it's fair to say that might not be obvious and/or could be a little more clear.

Btw, does this mean that when you all are in the proving grounds, you think it's 2 out of 3 and that's the timer for all 3 matches?
:p

If those darn proving grounds timers were simply 10:00 and the tourneys 30:00, I think that would go a long way to being able to use the word "obvious" here.

Either way, still need some timer-related UI.

Yoss
05-13-2014, 02:43 PM
By the way, "match" is a collection of "sets" or "games". The timer is 30 minutes per match, which tracks through all three games.

Thus the expression "game, set, match", meaning, "I won the game, which was the last game of the set, which was the last set of the match."

Rendakor
05-13-2014, 02:47 PM
Honestly, I thought that was how long I had per individual match (which I never understood why it was so long) since it's the exact same 30:00 timer that we use in individual matches in the proving grounds. I've played maybe 400 proving ground matches vs 4 tournaments, so I think it's fair to say that might not be obvious and/or could be a little more clear.

Btw, does this mean that when you all are in the proving grounds, you think it's 2 out of 3 and that's the timer for all 3 matches?
:p

If those darn proving grounds timers were simply 10:00 and the tourneys 30:00, I think that would go a long way to being able to use the word "obvious" here.

Either way, still need some timer-related UI.
I actually think the proving grounds would be much more valuable if they were (or offered an option for) best of 3. So much strategy in the game hinges upon understanding your opponent's deck and sideboarding accordingly; noobs won't really learn how to do that if they just play one-off games. Sure, you can just rechallenge but there's no way to know if people tweaked their decks based on Reserves or their entire card pool.

More on topic, CZE has said very often that a lot of the UI needs work; however, getting feature-complete is more important.

zadies
05-13-2014, 05:41 PM
I'm not really sure the proving grounds are really meant to be a learning experience per say they just happen to be all there is to do at the moment other then tournaments and you can always rechallenge the person.
I always seen them as a kind of home game where you just sit down and play with friends or random dude at the card shop when you both had time.

jcalton
05-13-2014, 05:50 PM
I agree, although I'd be fine with some good warnings.

jcalton
05-13-2014, 05:52 PM
LOL I thought this whole timer setup was supposed to be obvious.
1811

Daer
05-13-2014, 05:55 PM
The server is down

Makizushi
05-13-2014, 11:43 PM
The server is down

Why post that in this thread? Or are you saying it's related to JCalton's screenshot? :)

JCalton, that's a very funny one :)

Userrr_Friendly
05-14-2014, 07:23 AM
The Clock is a big big bug. For some reason my clock is ticking even when i pass priority to the opponent generally the game freezes with none of the players interacting with the game and the timer still ticks, as a result i lost 2 of the last 3 drafts that i played because of the timer(both at the second match while i was winning 1-0 :mad: ) even when i was playing at full speed. Furthermore in the last draft that the problem appeared (tournament id 11748) when the clock was at 5 minutes and the opponent was attacking i clicked at a creature to block and the game just froze there for 5 minutes i was not able to target a creature to block nor cancel the blocker... eventually the clock started counting negative numbers!!! and then went back to positive and after that just game over - elimination.
I have submitted a ticket at hex.support but i was wondering if any1 else has got similar problems with the clock...

negativeZer0
05-14-2014, 07:44 AM
The Clock is a big big bug. For some reason my clock is ticking even when i pass priority to the opponent generally the game freezes with none of the players interacting with the game and the timer still ticks, as a result i lost 2 of the last 3 drafts that i played because of the timer(both at the second match while i was winning 1-0 :mad: ) even when i was playing at full speed. Furthermore in the last draft that the problem appeared (tournament id 11748) when the clock was at 5 minutes and the opponent was attacking i clicked at a creature to block and the game just froze there for 5 minutes i was not able to target a creature to block nor cancel the blocker... eventually the clock started counting negative numbers!!! and then went back to positive and after that just game over - elimination.
I have submitted a ticket at hex.support but i was wondering if any1 else has got similar problems with the clock...

I have completed in excess of 15 drafts and have never even come close to running out of time (have never been below 10 minutes even in game 3 matches) I have also not won a single match to my opponent running out of time.

Yes there are some bugs with the clock but regardless of this, if you are running out of time frequently, you need to learn to play faster. This is not an elitist I'm better than you and can play faster statement. The simple fact is time management is a crucial part of tournament play. I highly suspect that even after the clock bugs are fixed that many of these same people saying its the clocks fault will realize they are still running out of time as they are simply taking too long to make decisions.

Kubira
05-14-2014, 09:25 AM
I have completed in excess of 15 drafts and have never even come close to running out of time (have never been below 10 minutes even in game 3 matches) I have also not won a single match to my opponent running out of time.
I am 18 drafts in and have never come close to running out of time. I have won two matches due to timeout. It seemed like my opponents were reading the cards on the stack and just burning tons of time.

Watching Havoc, I know good players can still take a lot of time thinking through every decision. However, something dies inside of me every time I end up with a timer with 10+ minutes more remaining than my opponent. I would strenuously object to anything that extended the amount of time available. Folks just have to find a way to go faster.

Turtlewing
05-14-2014, 09:31 AM
I have completed in excess of 15 drafts and have never even come close to running out of time (have never been below 10 minutes even in game 3 matches) I have also not won a single match to my opponent running out of time.

Yes there are some bugs with the clock but regardless of this, if you are running out of time frequently, you need to learn to play faster. This is not an elitist I'm better than you and can play faster statement. The simple fact is time management is a crucial part of tournament play. I highly suspect that even after the clock bugs are fixed that many of these same people saying its the clocks fault will realize they are still running out of time as they are simply taking too long to make decisions.

Except that it is pretty elitist to assume that all players should be able to manage within the same competitive time limits.

A lot of people have never drafted before and right now they're being expected to play with a buggy (often laggy) UI in a fairly aggressive time limit (the chess clock is less forgiving than the usual round timer that most paper tournaments use), of coarse they're running out of time.

If there were a more casual draft format with more forgiving timers where players could learn the basics before diving into the deep end, than "learn to play" might be a valid response, but right now you just come off as saying "we don't want your kind here".

Svenn
05-14-2014, 09:40 AM
I have completed in excess of 15 drafts and have never even come close to running out of time (have never been below 10 minutes even in game 3 matches) I have also not won a single match to my opponent running out of time.

Yes there are some bugs with the clock but regardless of this, if you are running out of time frequently, you need to learn to play faster. This is not an elitist I'm better than you and can play faster statement. The simple fact is time management is a crucial part of tournament play. I highly suspect that even after the clock bugs are fixed that many of these same people saying its the clocks fault will realize they are still running out of time as they are simply taking too long to make decisions.
I am in the same boat here. I did lose a match to time once, but that's because my opponent was up 1-0 and decided to just delay the second game until my time ran out (he had a minute or two more than me on the clock and he just dropped a ton of creatures I couldn't get past and wouldn't attack me or anything). Otherwise, most of my matches I finish with 15+ minutes left on the clock easy, even if they go to 3 games it's usually no less than 10 minutes.

Kubira
05-14-2014, 09:41 AM
If there were a more casual draft format with more forgiving timers where players could learn the basics before diving into the deep end, than "learn to play" might be a valid response, but right now you just come off as saying "we don't want your kind here".
There is an unintended consequence with that. Say they implement Swiss with 40 minutes per player per match. How long do you expect the new and potentially casual player to wait for their second round game? If they win the first round quickly (they play aggro, their opponent rare-drafted and quit, etc) then they could be waiting well over an hour for an opponent. I would argue that that will kill the format faster than requiring tournament participants to play a little quicker.

rjselzler
05-14-2014, 10:06 AM
The title made me think of this meme (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/fucking-magnets-how-do-they-work). As per usual, I have nothing of value to add. I just had to get that out of my system. :D

negativeZer0
05-14-2014, 01:52 PM
Except that it is pretty elitist to assume that all players should be able to manage within the same competitive time limits.

A lot of people have never drafted before and right now they're being expected to play with a buggy (often laggy) UI in a fairly aggressive time limit (the chess clock is less forgiving than the usual round timer that most paper tournaments use), of coarse they're running out of time.

If there were a more casual draft format with more forgiving timers where players could learn the basics before diving into the deep end, than "learn to play" might be a valid response, but right now you just come off as saying "we don't want your kind here".

Drafting is thee most competitive and difficult format. You should not be playing draft to learn the game. You should know a set very well before entering a draft and expecting to do well. This is not elitist this is just fact. Example: in MTG competitive draft players study the spoiler lists for a new set for hours before they go to a pre-release and actually play a new set.

Extending timers for casual play would be a terrible idea because as stated this means a format that already takes around 3 1/2 hours could take closer to 5 hours.

Tournaments are not meant to be casual or a place to learn the game.

There will be many casual formats by the time we see release. Draft will never be one of them.

Showsni
05-14-2014, 01:57 PM
I am in the same boat here. I did lose a match to time once, but that's because my opponent was up 1-0 and decided to just delay the second game until my time ran out (he had a minute or two more than me on the clock and he just dropped a ton of creatures I couldn't get past and wouldn't attack me or anything). Otherwise, most of my matches I finish with 15+ minutes left on the clock easy, even if they go to 3 games it's usually no less than 10 minutes.

That's the situation where you need to learn to forfeit. If there's no way you can win a game before time runs out, and you're a game up, quit ASAP and try your luck in game three.


I kind of wish they implemented an out of time turns rule like paper mtg. Once a player runs out of sanctioned time, 5 turns play out. The opponent uses their normal clock and the timed out player gets 30 seconds (maybe 1 min?) per turn. Turn time restriction applies to opponent if also runs out of time during the last 5.

Losing immediately due to timeout has always irked me.

Why? It makes sense in paper Magic because you don't know which player has been using the time up, but in a game like Hex (or MtGO) we have what amounts to a chess clock. We know who's been using the time up, so we know who deserves the loss.

Xexist
05-14-2014, 02:13 PM
I have lost due to timeout one time, I created a ticket about it though. I probably lost about 10 minutes during the opponents priority and UI lag.

2 game matches arent bad, but when it makes it to a third round thats when it can get troublesome.

Werlix
05-14-2014, 02:20 PM
Drafting is thee most competitive and difficult format. You should not be playing draft to learn the game. You should know a set very well before entering a draft and expecting to do well. This is not elitist this is just fact. Example: in MTG competitive draft players study the spoiler lists for a new set for hours before they go to a pre-release and actually play a new set.

Extending timers for casual play would be a terrible idea because as stated this means a format that already takes around 3 1/2 hours could take closer to 5 hours.

Tournaments are not meant to be casual or a place to learn the game.

There will be many casual formats by the time we see release. Draft will never be one of them.

Yep was going to post exactly this. If you are running out of time in drafts you probably should play more proving grounds games with various decks to learn the card pool and general strategy. This will help you make decisions faster.

30 mins even with the occasional timer bug should be more than enough to play through a match. Also note that sometimes the clock is ticking down on your client but not on the server and it will resync every now and then.

Xexist
05-14-2014, 04:58 PM
Yep was going to post exactly this. If you are running out of time in drafts you probably should play more proving grounds games with various decks to learn the card pool and general strategy. This will help you make decisions faster.

30 mins even with the occasional timer bug should be more than enough to play through a match. Also note that sometimes the clock is ticking down on your client but not on the server and it will resync every now and then.

Fair enough, but with enough troops out it CAN take awhile to consider the math, who blocks what, what effects can be triggered by whats in play + what you have in your hand...

Most of most games are quick, but sometimes you have to carefully consider what you are doing.

Turtlewing
05-15-2014, 05:54 AM
Drafting is thee most competitive and difficult format.

1. If you can think of a better way to learn Draft than playing Draft I'd like to hear it.

2. the Timer affects all formats, you can get caught by it juts as easily in sealed or constructed so I consider this irrelevant to the point of whether queues with more forgiving timers should exist.

3. Then CZE shouldn't have given everybody a bunch of draft tickets. They clearly want everyone playing draft so calling it "a competitive format people who can't handle it shouldn't participate in" is elitist.

Turtlewing
05-15-2014, 05:56 AM
There is an unintended consequence with that. Say they implement Swiss with 40 minutes per player per match. How long do you expect the new and potentially casual player to wait for their second round game? If they win the first round quickly (they play aggro, their opponent rare-drafted and quit, etc) then they could be waiting well over an hour for an opponent. I would argue that that will kill the format faster than requiring tournament participants to play a little quicker.

That's not an unintended consequence.

More forgiving timers mean the game can take longer and that's what will push more competitive players (who can handle the less forgiving timer) into the more competitive queue. That means the people in the less competitive queue have a better chance of being paired with people of similar skill level.

Gorgol
05-15-2014, 09:49 PM
can't wait if that happens for this board to be "why are timers so long!"

Freebird_Falcon
05-16-2014, 07:41 AM
Some sort of audible/visual alert when you're nearing time-out would be nice. I find it easy to get caught up chatting with opponent or mentally running through scenarios of the next few plays (both especially during those late night drafts) if it's an engaging match and suddenly "time gg."
*!!* noooo